Kristen Kish on Uplifting Community By Being Yourself from Who's with Me? with W. Kamau Bell

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:17):
Pushkin. Hey everybody, it's me w Kmobel. Welcome to episode
three four four four of Who's with Me? The podcast
brought to you by my good friends at Rabbitt Grin Productions,

(00:38):
where I'm at right now and it's on the Pushkin Network.
Thank you for having me. Last week the episode was
Ted Danson where Ted Danson very thoroughly, by my judgment, sensitively, vulnerably,
and what I would say is honestly apologized for his
black face and inWORD laden. I didn't hear it performance

(01:01):
at the nineteen ninety three Friars Club roast of Whoopi Goldberg,
so we taped that, as I said last week, before
the Kevin Hart roast, So by the time it was airing,
I had no idea that Evan Heart roast was still
be in the news, but I thought it might make
some headlines. And boy did it ever get some headlines.
Of the three podcasts we've done, it's the most talked
about the first when TMC has talked about. I've been

(01:23):
in touch with Ted since the podcast aired. He's very
happy with it. Apparently his daughter liked it. Apparently his publicist,
who's the same public he had back then, also liked it,
so mission accomplished everybody. Of course, some people didn't like it,
which people don't like things. But I am proud to
say I got my first heat from Meghan Kelly. Meghan

(01:44):
Kelly did not like seeing two adult men sensitively and
lovingly talk about a difficult issue, and she called me out.
Actually I don't know if she called me out, because
she called me Camma Bell. She said, let me tell
you about Camma Bell. So I responded to Meghan in
a video that I made at the Newark Airport when
I was flying back from the Tribeca Film Festival. People

(02:05):
seem to enjoy it. Maybe me and Meghan go back
and forth. She will never be a guest on the podcast, Meghan,
if you're watching, or your or your people are, you'll
never be a guest. It's never gonna come to that.
But thanks for giving me something to do while I
was waiting for my flight back home from the New
York Airport. Megan Kelly, or as I call you, Maijene,
Happy Pride month. Everybody. It is June. Last week it

(02:25):
was Pride month, but I got distracted by all the
ted dancing of it all. But I do want to
make sure it's clear. Happy Pride Month. Last year in Oakland,
I was actually one of the Grand Marshals of the
Oakland Pride Parade. So I'm all down with the LGBTQ plus.
I've talked to a lot about how moving to the
Bay Area really connected me to those communities and how
that really sort of brought me to the understanding that
I have today. So shout out to Oakland, Shout out

(02:47):
to Martha Weinberg, shout out to Oakland Pride. You know,
it really moved to Bayley expanded my mind about all
the letters of the LGBTQ plus. Today, our guest is
Kristin Kish. She is the host of Top Chef. The
season finale just aired, so check that out after you

(03:08):
check this out. Kristin Kish is amazing. We'll talk about
her in a little bit. I do want to talk
a little bit more because it's not just Pride Month.
I think it's also a good time to talk about
those letters, and specifically the letter T T for trans
and transgender and the transgender community. A few years ago,
America had a moment where it seemed like we were
opening up our cultural imagination and our cultural intelligence towards

(03:30):
trans people. It was around the time that Caitlyn Jenner
announced herself as a transgender woman, and she was on
the cover of magazines and ESPN was given her awards,
and it was a moment where it felt like, after
we'd had a weird bathroom thing where we were battling
over the bathrooms and who could go and who couldn't go,
America was like, we understand the transgender people are people too.

(03:51):
They've lived throughout history, They've always been here. This is
not new, it's just maybe new to you. And a
lot of us came to a new understanding of the
transgender identity, just like this is a part of humanity,
just like the heterosexual identity and the heteronormative identity. It's
just another way humanity expresses itself or themself or herself
or herself or hisself. But then that stopped, and there's

(04:13):
been pushback against trans people, much of it weaponized by
comedians of my age, middle aged male comedians. So I
feel like I have to speak out on the other
side of that as often as possible, and I just
want to be clear, like I am one hundred percent
down with trans folks. I've done episode United Shades about
the trans community in Dallas, Texas when I had that show,

(04:35):
and a couple episodes will have Navn Mau, the incredible
actress from Baby Reindeer, and we talk about her struggle
as a transgender actress in Hollywood and how she has
to create her own projects. But I've gotten some pushback
from people who are questioning why I would have my
podcast with Pushkin because Malcolm Gladwell has different feelings about
the trans community, specifically around trans people playing sports, specifically

(04:57):
around trans women playing sports, and people are like, why
would you do that? Come out? Why would you be there?
And here's the thing. First of all, I want to
be clear. Throughout my career, I've worked with people who
thought differently than me. Hell I was at sea, I
was surrounded by people who thought differently than me. And
the thing that I always have to ask myself is
do I feel comfortable being my full self in these

(05:19):
places where people think differently than me? And right here
on who's with me the podcast? I feel comfortable being
my full self and saying I disagree with Malcolm Gladwell
on way he thinks about trans people in sports, as
agree with anybody who thinks trans people shouldn't play sports.
I actually talk about this on stage a lot. Let
trans people play sports, let trans kids play sports. And
you know why, it's okay because sports is fake. Sports

(05:41):
is fake. So if people want to play a game,
it's literally a game. It doesn't really matter who wins
or loses. It's just about a game and having fun
and getting fresh air. Nine nine point nine percent of
sports is just people who will never be professionals and
just want to have a good time. Probably niney nine
point nine nine nine percent of sports. There's nothing to
protect sports from. Sports is just a game. Ultimately, it
doesn't matter who wins or loses. It's just about the game.

(06:05):
And let'll be clear, if we want to ban people
from playing sports. How unlucky is it that Charles Barkley
was born around the same time as Michael Jordan. Charles
Barkley was born around the same time as Michael Jordan,
and Michael Jordan's greatness prevented Charles Barkley from winning a
few NBA championships, and Charles Barkley's doing fine. Everyone to
talk about banning people playing sports. Right now in the NBA,

(06:26):
there's a seven foot four Frenchman who it con dunk
without jumping and can dribble and shoot from outside like
a guard. I think that's way more threatening to the
NBA than a trans person playing sports. So we're gonna
ban trans people. That's also banned Victor Winbinyama from the NBA,
or at least trade him to the Golden State Warriors,
my team. What I'm trying to say is I wish

(06:48):
I could always work in places where everybody agree with
me and everybody thought the way I thought. That's not
always the case. One of the reasons I wanted to
work at Pushkin and wanted to work with Pushkin is
actually not even because of Malcolm Gladwell. I mean, I've
read many of the books, and I was a fan
of many of the books when I read the books.
But it's because of a man named Justin Richmond. Justin
Richmond works at Pushkin, and you may know Justin because

(07:08):
he's often hosts one of the podcasts at push on
the Record. I've known Justin since he was in college.
Some of you know Justin and you don't know you
know Justin because he became a character on the Denzel
Washington is the Greatest Actor of All Time podcast when
he was known as Black Judgment. Some people's brains just went.
Many of you have no idea what I'm talking about.
But I've known Justin since he was in college and

(07:29):
he was basically an engineer on the Denzel Washington podcast.
And so Justin reached out to me and said, Hey,
would you be interested in doing a podcast here? And
I was like, I want to do a podcast with Justin,
And I thought about all this things, about the fact
to me and Malcolm Glad will disagree on trans women
in sports, and I hope we can have that conversation someday.
But I want to be clear, this podcast is my project.

(07:50):
I feel lucky that I'm able to do it. It's
one hundred percent owned by me, and I one hundred
percent can say whatever I want to say about whatever
I want to say, as long as it doesn't get
anybody sued. But so I hope me and Malcolm Glad
will have that conversation. But don't think me being here
in anyway damping's my enthusiasm for the trans community or
anybody else in the LGBTQ rainbow. So keep hope alive

(08:13):
and I'll keep out here too. Today's guest is Kristin Kish.
Kristin Kish is the host of Top Chef. She became
the host when Padma Lakshmi did not continue to host
the show. So we talk about that, how it was
what it was like to be a competitor on Top
Chef and then to take over for a legend like Padma,
who's also a friend of mine. Is a very wide
ranging conversation. At one point, Kristen took it over. We

(08:35):
got into some Kevin Hart roast talk sort of accidentally.
It was interesting. Kristin hadn't seen the roast, but the
clip of Tony Hinchcliffe just came across her feed and
she was sort of like, what is this, And because
she knew how to stand up, She's like, can you
explain this to me? The clip of Tony Hinchcliffe condemning
George Floyd to hell. And so we got into a
whole conversation about how stand up comedy works, and she
ended up sort of hosting the podcast at that point,

(08:56):
and it was a great conversation. We also talked about
how good she is at her job because I was
a guest on Top Chef, a guest judge, and then
before she left, I realized I wanted to talk to
her about being a transracial adoptee. So about a month
ago in New York Times, David French, a white conservative
op ed writer from I Think from Tennessee, talked about
how he didn't really understand that racism was as bad
as it was until his adopted Ethiopian daughter was crying

(09:19):
at school one day when he picked her up, and
she was sad because she had been called the N
word by some people in a truck. And that's when
he realized, Oh, racism might be bad the way black
people have told me it's bad. And now I understand
it because it's affected my daughter. And I know a
lot of transracial adoptees who cringe and really get blood
boiling mad when they hear white parents with transracial adoptees
talk about not understanding their child's identity. I know a

(09:42):
lot of transversal adoptees who think that white people should
not be allowed to adopt outside of their race. So
I talked to Christian about her identity as a translational adoptee,
she's creating she was adopted by white people, and how
she grew up and what her thoughts about it were,
and she had a lot of interesting things to say,
and I'm really grateful that she was that vulnerable and
was able to talk about it on the podcast. So
it's a really great interview. I'm really excited about it.

(10:04):
Check it out. Kristen Kish who was with me. So
I first saw how's your coffee?

Speaker 2 (10:17):
It's delicious. I didn't know that you were. You were
the person getting and.

Speaker 1 (10:21):
I'm the person no need for this.

Speaker 2 (10:24):
I texted my sis, can you have someone grab me
your coffee? I didn't know it was good. The request
was going to you.

Speaker 1 (10:29):
It came straight to me. Okay, what was I gonna do?

Speaker 2 (10:32):
Delicious?

Speaker 1 (10:33):
I do want to know. It's a place right down
the street. It's wonderful, it looks it looks hip, so
I it was appropriate. It was next to a Dunkin Donuts,
so I did have that, like you had the choice,
and I know you're Boston. Yeah I do like a Dunken,
but I just felt like I'm gonna go over to
you know.

Speaker 2 (10:49):
The no labeled cup also helps out, yes for several reasons.

Speaker 1 (10:53):
Yeah, so yeah, it doesn't look like you're endorsing I'm
the proud owner of the new coffee shop in New
York City. Do you get down to this area that often? Yeah,
the food I've heard of, but I've never been on it.
And so I was like, man, this is really what
it says it is.

Speaker 2 (11:09):
Yeah, I mean it's what you in the movies.

Speaker 1 (11:12):
That New York is one of the few places I've
ever been in America. That is what it is portrayed
like in the movies. Like the first time I hear
was like, oh, it is giant California guy. Okay, first
of all, I'm not a California guy. Well, but even
I moved to Oakland from Chicago.

Speaker 2 (11:30):
Okay, maybe that's why I like you Chicago.

Speaker 1 (11:34):
I've been out of the Bay for a long time.
My kids are all from out there. But it's funny
to because and I was actually born out there. But
still it's funny to be called the California.

Speaker 2 (11:42):
And have a would you prefer we call you Chicago guy? No,
I can't claim that what what what the city area.

Speaker 1 (11:48):
California guys actually totally appropriate. I would say Bay Area
just because if you say California, people think you mean
La And so I say Bay Area, East Bay Oakland
order of preferences. This is you're hosting a podcast about
me Oakland, East Bay Bay area, and I guess northern California.

Speaker 2 (12:06):
Man, you got a lot of You got a lot California,
A lot of things.

Speaker 1 (12:11):
Yeah, oh, I got a lot of things. That's funny
because I've read up on you.

Speaker 2 (12:14):
I don't have a lot of things. You have a
lot of things, not in comparison to you, a lot
of First of all.

Speaker 1 (12:19):
We're going to start now. All that was preamble. Yeah,
so I started the podcast by giving people their flowers
because why did you say that, like you're suspicious.

Speaker 2 (12:28):
You're also like a comedian.

Speaker 1 (12:30):
Yeah, I know, for sincerity, No I was.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
But when I first met you, let's like wind it all,
like we got to bring it back for a second.
When I first met you for the very first time,
I never when I tell you, I have made it
a point in my life to try to never forget
the first time I meet somebody, because sometimes when you
meet people. As I've gotten older, I think back and
I'm like, God, what was it? What was it within

(12:57):
the first five minutes? Yeah, And so because of that,
I pay attention and I have seen you on television.
I knew of your, of you you, and then when
we met in Milwaukee, Wisconsin, Madison, Madison, Wisconsin, and Kate,
we were like in this like nondescript kind office building

(13:19):
and you just kind of rock up and you are
exactly who I hoped you would have been. You were funny,
you were warm, charming, and really excited to be there.
And that that was a little bit too much.

Speaker 1 (13:31):
That was too much.

Speaker 2 (13:32):
It was great.

Speaker 1 (13:33):
I was really excited to be there.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
I mean, that's better than not being excited.

Speaker 1 (13:37):
I yes, But also I sort of also don't mind
being a little bit extra. I understand I don't want
to disrupt the thing, but I want everybody to know
I'm happy to be here.

Speaker 2 (13:47):
But I also like when someone comes in specifically talking
about like top chef. We have a structure, we know what, like,
I know what I'm meaning. I kind of like when
it's slightly disrupted by a guest that just is kind
of like whatever, because then it gives me something to
like bounce off of.

Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, no, you remember that. Yeah, I definitely like. I mean,
first of all, you get I'm supposed to give you
your flowers. Well I went first, this is what I
remember about you. You're very commanding present. You're a very
commanding presence, and you know how to take over a situation.
And that's that. We'll talk about that later. Like I

(14:21):
was so I mean, I you know again say Senior
on TV. Had me and my wife been watching Top
Chefs since like the first season when it was like,
you know, no offense to any of those people, but
it was a lot of people like I like to
cook right offense to those people, but they hadn't all
you real chefs were like I don't know about this yet,
and it was people like I cook sometimes, so like

(14:42):
it was great love all those people. So I've been
watching since then and you came on the show and
were just such a like a like there's just people
and having spent time with TV production, there are people
that are on camera and it seems like I'm supposed
to be on camera, like and it's not about the ego,
it's just about there's some people who just who are
so settled in themselves that when the camera shows up,

(15:04):
it doesn't disrupt them, it doesn't make them do too much,
it doesn't make them do too little. So you just
want to see that person go Okay, some of these
people are great chefs, and after the show they're gonna
go on to be great chefs. Some of these people
have choices about do I want to continue being a
TV person, And it was very clear from the first time, like, oh,
she's gonna have some choices.

Speaker 2 (15:22):
Well, I'm glad that you saw it, because I wasn't
thinking that.

Speaker 1 (15:26):
Of course all I mean not, of course not, but
I understand that I was a chef that some people
want to be. You can see poplere like I'm planning
on turning this into a and it's like you're not, Yeah,
you're not going to do that.

Speaker 2 (15:38):
A little too eager, sometimes.

Speaker 1 (15:40):
Too eager, and just also aren't good at the thing
you need to be good at. And I'm not saying this,
I'm good at it. You just got to be able
to know what you do on TV and be settling
it and know how to turn it up and turn
it down depending on the situation. So like the Top Chef,
I showed up there to be like, oh, on Top Chef,
I'm not like Kamal who's learning about racism and structural quality.

(16:01):
I'm the funny guy.

Speaker 2 (16:03):
But also you can be whatever whatever it is that
like sparks you in that moment, like if you have
like sometimes we have some of the conversations when we're
kind of not talking about food but using food. Is
that through line to have the conversation.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
But I guess not even that saying the funny guys
like saying I can't do other things. But I know
that in that situation, it's like a sitcom from the
eighties special guest star this week, and you got to
come in and do the thing right. You can't sit
down like I come all the no big deal. I
got to come in and like it's like Kramer on Sidefeld.
I got to jump through the door with the hair
and like get out of clause break and then you know,

(16:38):
so I just sort of felt like I sewed up
to well, I'll tell you another thing, but I'm still
in the middle of the company. Then we'll get back
to my experience of Top Chefs. But that so then
so I see you on TV, I'm like, oh, yeah,
she's and then you're like doing I see you start
to do other things. After Top Chef. I got I
got actually there, I got invited to that show Fast Foodies. Yes,
I don't know what happened, but I was like, one

(16:59):
of the reason I wanted to go is because you
were on it.

Speaker 2 (17:01):
So we hold on so we could have met before
we actually met.

Speaker 1 (17:06):
Yeah, I was invited in something. I don't know what.
I don't think it was my side. I don't know what.
Somehow I said yes. Somehow that was when I was
still doing nice. I don't know. Somehow it didn't go through,
but I was like I was That's why. One of
the reason I was going was like, because I don't
do it. I like to be at home generally, I
don't have to go a lot of times. I mean,
as you don't have to do this. But I was like, no, no,

(17:27):
I wanted to meet you. And so that didn't happen.
I was like, oh man. And then when we got
the offer for Top Chef, like, I'm like my Kelly
Raffery heart. At the time, we were all like who.
Melissa was like who can I can she go? We
were trying to figure out but we have two many
children to do that. But like it was like I
had to show up for my community for Top Chef
and take notes and pay attention and also somebody who's

(17:49):
hosted a TV show I know what it's like to host,
not in that competitive reality show format, but I know
it's like to be on camera a lot and have
to be aware of that and have to like sometimes
you have to say the thing and the producer goes,
can you do it again? And I was like and
standing next to you when we're all up there, like yeah,
it's like it's like the experts and Yah and Black Kramer.

(18:09):
I was so aware that this I'm saying next to
like a cyborg, like you are a TV machine, you
know what I mean. And I mean that in the
best way, like not like you're not. It's just you
were really good at.

Speaker 2 (18:20):
That and that was my first year, that was your
first time.

Speaker 1 (18:23):
If you came back now, I mean, I'm waiting for
the offer I will, okay, yeah, because I was just
like you were so because I know what it is.
I've been a bad host on TV. I know what
it's like, especially when you have a lot of reps. Like,
the only way to learn how to host TV is
to host TV. Right, there's not there's not. I mean,
I'm sure there's a school, but and somebody can give

(18:43):
you advice, but you just got to do it, especially.

Speaker 2 (18:45):
With reality television. Yeah, and you're like, at the end
of the day, like there are lines, as you know,
because you had a couple of lines you have to hit.
But in between all those lines, which is about five
percent of the time, the rest of it is just
reacting to what's happening around you and.

Speaker 1 (18:59):
Being aware that you're always on camera. Even if you're
not on camera, you know, you always have a mic on.
You always have a mic on. That's important, uh, And
just that the idea that like, and you're in a
position I was in the suit where you're dealing with
people who aren't used to be on TV. So you're
also carrying their weight a little bit too. Sure, you know,
I don't.

Speaker 2 (19:18):
Have to carry any weight for you.

Speaker 1 (19:20):
And I'm talking about this the shifts you're competing, like
you have to carry little bit of their anxiety and
there you gotta tell them, hey, settle that. You know.
I saw you doing some of that. I mean you
all do that some of that, Like are you sure
about that? You know? Attle bit And and so I
got to see, like that's a skill, a hard fought
for skill, being a TV host, and you are like

(19:42):
great at it. And so I'm like and so I
sat there. I was like, oh, this top shift thing
is just gonna be like a little like. I was like,
there's something else happening. There's gonna be and that's why
I was like, I'm just gonna try to be this
and now you're gonna know I'm older than you. I'll
see if I can be Ed McMahon on whatever the
next thing is. You know Ed McMahon, Yeah, I have to.

Speaker 2 (20:00):
I recognize the name.

Speaker 1 (20:01):
I can't picture. I mean, I'm like the last generation
who would know Ed McMahon. I'm like, what did he host?
He was the guy? Well, okay, here's better. Maybe you
know this one Andy? Uh well, no, I can't even
think of his name. Andy. What's his name? Alex, Alex, Alex,
I'm looking to you. I don't know. And AND's got
Andy Richter Andy.

Speaker 2 (20:21):
Richtor, Yes, I know. And he came on fast Foodies.

Speaker 1 (20:24):
That makes sense. Yes, that seems like a dis I
don't mean that as Andy Richtor.

Speaker 2 (20:28):
He showed up for me, what about you?

Speaker 1 (20:32):
I showed up. I was like, I'm gonna wait you.
I like this fast foodies thing. I feel like there's
a better So if I do fast foodies, then they
might not invite me to Top Chef, So none of
that happened. But Andy Richter is the is the more
just the guy the he sits on the couch while
Conan does a thing. Right. Ed McMahon and Andy Richter
did it because Ed McMahon did it for Johnny Carson
for like thirty years. Oh yeah, do you know who

(20:54):
Johnny Carson is? Yeah?

Speaker 2 (20:55):
It is the original Tonight Show.

Speaker 1 (20:57):
Very okay. Yes, I didn't mean this to be about
a generational device.

Speaker 2 (21:00):
When you said Ed McMahon, I thought, press your luck.
Remember that show, yes with them? I thought that was
the guy hosting it. That's not him, that's not him.

Speaker 1 (21:08):
I mean Ed McMahon his He did two things he
did that he's known for. He sat on the Tonight
Show on the couch with Carson and just sort of
like like that was a laugh. That was like Johnny
said anything. He was like, you did it again. He
was just there to like make Johnny feel like he
wasn't talking to anybody, got it. But it's a skill
to be that guy and also to be invisible when

(21:29):
the conversation doesn't need you. So if he's talking to
Burt Reynolds and Burt Reynolds is exploding. Do you know
Bert anyway?

Speaker 2 (21:34):
Yes, I know he has a mustache. Yes, this was
he was in a Western.

Speaker 1 (21:41):
I'm sure he was. I'm sure he was. I don't
know he had to do it.

Speaker 2 (21:44):
I'm actually not that much younger.

Speaker 1 (21:46):
I know there's but I think that there's times where
generations really do divide. And you're like, my wife's six
years younger than me, and she says she's gen X,
but she's at the very tail. I'm gen XI. Call
me a boomer.

Speaker 2 (22:00):
No, I don't know, I see it. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1 (22:02):
I don't know.

Speaker 2 (22:02):
We jumped from gen X to boomer.

Speaker 1 (22:05):
Yeah, I had. There's like there's like a half but yes,
boomers and then gen X, and then there's this. You
know this, So you're probably I'm an older millennia, an
elder millennial.

Speaker 2 (22:15):
I have a nineteen eighty three millennial.

Speaker 1 (22:16):
Yeah. See, my wife is nineteen seventy anyway, she's my
wife is very young, No, but not inappropriately so, uh no,
she's nineteen seventy nine, I'll say that. So she's she's
claimed she's like the last year of gen X, and
I'm like, no, you're an elder Bok because even with
that like six years or so, there's just things where
it's like I was like, when the Spice Girls came out,
you thought they were cool. I was like, what is this?

Speaker 2 (22:39):
But do you see the generational divide the most in
pop culture?

Speaker 1 (22:43):
Like?

Speaker 2 (22:43):
Is that the place where it always typically shows up?

Speaker 1 (22:45):
Because it's about when you heard that song and what
Like I'm the exact age of all those Seattle bands,
you know what I mean? So like are a little
bit younger, yeah, so that that grunge movement. I was like,
I'm the exact age of hip hop. Like I'm fifty three.
Hip hop started nineteen seventy three, so all of hip
hop has sort of happened in my lifetime and I
saw it all happen, you know what I mean.

Speaker 2 (23:04):
But after pop culture now, I'm just like interested, after
pop culture, where do we see the generational the the most?
Is it style? Is it clothing? Is it how we like?

Speaker 1 (23:16):
What?

Speaker 2 (23:16):
What is it?

Speaker 1 (23:17):
That's a good quest. I would say that, like some
of this is shifting because the Internet is flattening us
out a lot. So I would say that language and
style have to be pretty close, right, that those are
ways in which like you see, like if you see
you know, like there you know, I mean you I'm
sure you remember this when everybody with the flannel shirt
era is like the grunge era, you know, like when
what the what flannel shirts?

Speaker 2 (23:38):
When people are well flannel shirts. I thought you said
flight on like a flight like I was like thinking.

Speaker 1 (23:42):
Of an airplane or whatever.

Speaker 2 (23:43):
It made no sense to me flannel shirts.

Speaker 1 (23:45):
Flannel shirts is described to and I've seen them come
back in my lifetime, right, but they're always a marker
for me of like that's that era, that the early
nineties era, you know.

Speaker 2 (23:54):
But then you can separate that all out even within
the bucket of style, then we're talking what region of
the country did you grow up at?

Speaker 1 (24:01):
Well? See, that's the thing. I think the Internet is
flattening because it used to be like as a kid,
like as a younger, like my dad is a Mobile
Alabama and I would go to Mobile, Alabama and see
people dressing there where they dressed in Chicago like five
years earlier, right, because it just took a while. How
you guys are doing those pants now?

Speaker 2 (24:19):
You're right? And the Internet is flattening it out because
everyone just is so instant and seeing it, and then
everyone jumps on this.

Speaker 1 (24:25):
Because specific slang. Like when I moved to the Bay
Area and heard people saying hella seriously, I was like,
you guys do that? Well, now it's everywhere because bro, yeah, Bro, are.

Speaker 2 (24:38):
Your kids calling you bro?

Speaker 1 (24:40):
Bruh? Br bruh.

Speaker 2 (24:43):
It's even a little.

Speaker 1 (24:44):
Elder millennial bruh.

Speaker 2 (24:46):
Yeah, it's like the fuck you through.

Speaker 1 (24:47):
My eleven year old likes to call me bro or bro.
She likes, hey, Bro.

Speaker 2 (24:52):
Do you know what I've heard recently that people like
I've heard it in public where a clear like clearly
they're a couple, and I'm talking purely heterosexual couples where
the guy calls his partner bro, Oh yeah, bro, you
got it tastes you're are you calling her?

Speaker 1 (25:16):
Are you?

Speaker 2 (25:17):
And she's okay with us? Like what is happening? Are
we not actually present and conscious with the choice of
words and that we're just throwing out.

Speaker 1 (25:24):
Rough I mean, so very early in my in my
wife and I courtship before we were married, but we've
been dating for a while. Something happened and she's like, dude.
I was like, don't call me dude. Like I just
felt so like ew like, and it's become like a
recurring catch fort because I said, don't call me dude,
like you don't know me dude. I was like, no, no, no, no, no, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (25:47):
I think all of those words have come well, a
lot of the words that we choose to use that
like used to be the ums or the like, these
like filler words have been kind of taken place with
dude bra instead of just sitting with a moment of silence, yeah,
while you gather your.

Speaker 1 (26:07):
Next thought, we don't do that.

Speaker 2 (26:08):
We don't do that. I mean we do that. You
know a lot of people out there the other learn.

Speaker 1 (26:14):
That them them, them, don't do that. Them don't do that.
The name of this episode, uh, when we really went
far field.

Speaker 2 (26:22):
I kind of liked it, though, I mean.

Speaker 1 (26:24):
I'm enjoying it because that's the thing this podcast has
set for me to talk to people who I like
and admire. But I wouldn't like, I don't know that
I could just call you and go.

Speaker 2 (26:31):
Let's just why couldn't you just call me? I mean,
you have my number.

Speaker 1 (26:35):
Right, I do, I do, I do, But you know,
you famous people, you're all.

Speaker 2 (26:39):
Please okay, if I'm going to use your age right now,
in my benefit, you've been far more famous in a
bigger way than I ever have.

Speaker 1 (26:48):
Are you confusing me with questlove?

Speaker 2 (26:50):
No, I'm not.

Speaker 1 (26:52):
Like my Here's okay.

Speaker 2 (26:55):
I've seen you on television before you saw me on television.

Speaker 1 (26:58):
Yeah, but that doesn't count.

Speaker 2 (27:00):
How does that not count?

Speaker 1 (27:02):
I was probably on television before Kennic Lamar was on television,
and yet there's a there. The time you are on
TV does not equate to the you know, I know it.

Speaker 2 (27:10):
Does, but like the way you like, just just don't
argue with me right now? You have what ten years
on me?

Speaker 1 (27:18):
Ten years? I own my age ten years?

Speaker 2 (27:21):
Yeah, ten years on me, and you got ten years
of full ass, full blown career I did.

Speaker 1 (27:27):
Yeah, I've done some things.

Speaker 2 (27:29):
I'm a little baby you are.

Speaker 1 (27:30):
That's why I think it's so exciting. That's why I'm
trying to sell myself as the Ed McMahon because I'm
tired of working hard. I just want to be next
to you on the couch and be like Cotailah, I'm
ready for some coketails, got you. I just want to
be like she did it again, She did it again?
How did you do it? And nobody knows. So back
to the original point, why are you so good on TV?

Speaker 2 (27:53):
Wow? Okay, whoa, all right.

Speaker 1 (27:56):
This is your time to teach the master class. You know.

Speaker 2 (27:58):
I think it's because of the projects that I've I've
chosen are projects in which I can be me where
I don't feel like I have to be a television
host or be a certain version, can be all the
different versions, and if it ends up on the cutting
room floor, that's fine, but like throughout the process because
as you know, for fifty minutes of television you're filming,

(28:22):
dont forty eight hours? Yeah, And so for those forty
eight hours, if I'm just allowed to be and flow
and do whatever it is that I do, that makes
that makes my job a lot easier. I don't have
to think about it.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
Yeah, but you know, some of the worst advice somebody
can give you is just be yourself.

Speaker 2 (28:38):
Right, depends on who you tell you. Gotta be careful.

Speaker 1 (28:42):
Is this me or is this me? Am I doing it? Yet?

Speaker 2 (28:45):
I think I've gotten really comfortable with being okay, making
all the mistakes and like saying the wrong thing and
needing to say it five extra times.

Speaker 1 (28:54):
Yeah, Okay, So I'm gonna push back a little bit,
because first of all, there is a thing about you
have to get used to saying things five times when
you're recording television. So here ego has to be sort
of in a place where you're like, Okay, I say
it. It doesn't matter even though these people heard it already,
even though for me sometimes it's like, but it was
a joke the first time if I say it the
right But you have to get over that. But the
other thing on top of that is being able to

(29:18):
be yourself and it's actually the appropriate version of yourself.
You know that's I mean, like, how did you figure out?
Like when I stood next to you, I was like nobody.
If I had never heard of you before, i'd been like,
oh this this is a child actor who grew up
in the show business and has been doing this. She
started out with Kurt Russell.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
You know, I know who that is.

Speaker 1 (29:36):
You get Goot Good. I'm married to Goldie on Yes
Good like this game going. But so you know, no
other podcast has worked out like this would things so
that we're doing a special thing here. But like I
wouldn't have known that you were like a contestant turned host,
you know, like there was nothing because you know, and also,
and we can talk about this as much as you
want to, but like you stepped in the shoes with
somebody who had had that job for her long time

(29:58):
and did have a lot of experience, a lot of reps,
So it would have been understandable if you'd been like, no,
I mean bos Boygan before.

Speaker 2 (30:06):
The camera starts rolling. And internally that is how I felt.
There was a I did a lot of therapy prior
to taking the role for Top Chef, whereas some of
my other past television jobs, I just kind of like
hunkered in and I like worked past my fears and
all the anxiety that was happening in the self doubt.
Top Chef, I was like, no, no, no, We're going to
start this one.

Speaker 1 (30:27):
In different So you say Fast Foodies did not send
you to therapy.

Speaker 2 (30:31):
Well maybe for a couple of things.

Speaker 1 (30:33):
But yeah, okay, I wasn't even saying. But like, I
do think there's a difference between like I'm going to
have a job on some show that everyone's business has
existed before and there's pressure, of course, and you got
to figure out things, versus I'm going to take over
a role from like someone like Padma who you know, right,
and the audience is like, even though they know you,
there's a lot of like, yeah, I'm.

Speaker 2 (30:51):
Sure, Oh oh my god. There was so much doubt.
There was like can she do it? And they're comparing
the person that Podma was after nineteen seasons, twenty seasons
whatever to me being ten years before that the contestant.
So they're taking two versions her and then my version
a decade ago, being like can she do that?

Speaker 1 (31:13):
I'm like that version do this?

Speaker 2 (31:15):
Yea.

Speaker 1 (31:15):
You're like, well, I'm actually over here now.

Speaker 2 (31:16):
Well I'm already I'm already a different version. But also again,
my job is not to be her or to be
anybody else. And so because I have a unique perspective
of I mean just from the culinary standpoint, the working
in the industry, a different relationship I think with chefs
in general, on or off camera, and then having been
a contestant, then we're talking about a whole different skill set.

Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (31:39):
Yeah, and so I never had to be what she was.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
But I am so I am very fascinating. I think
that's true. But you have to also be okay knowing that,
like some aspects of people are going to be like
she's not her and you're like, yeah, I'm not her.

Speaker 2 (32:08):
Yeah. I mean I heard it probably the most for
the first half of the season of my very first
posting season, but that you know, it kind of went
away or I just you know, I just restricted and
muted the right people, but I got I think people
then just got a little bit more used to me

(32:29):
and how I come into that.

Speaker 1 (32:31):
Role, and I think you are. It's like they didn't
reach from somebody outside a top chef, because there was
of course like who's it going to be, like, you know,
uh so, and they didn't go to somebody where it
feels like they were looking for like clicks, you know
what I mean. It wasn't like we got a twelve
year old TikToker. It's a food channel, you know.

Speaker 2 (32:47):
I mean, they could have gotten you.

Speaker 1 (32:48):
But you know, believe me, I threw my name out there.
I like to throw my name out there, not officially
just on Instagram. Hey guys, I'm free, I'm always down.
So but yeah, the fact that you that you that
it was from in house, right, and you had you'd
been doing other TV things. So those of us who
knew were like, oh, yeah, she's been out there but

(33:09):
then just the fact that you step in there and
you just sort of, like I said, I want people
who are watching this who don't know about TV production
understand it is like standing in that when you see
this like that shot about like it's like me, you
at the quick Fire.

Speaker 2 (33:21):
With Toy Yes, chef in Madison.

Speaker 1 (33:24):
Yeah, let me eat it his restaurant. It's one of
the best meals of my life. And it was also
all these couples are having anniversary dinners and I'm just
sitting by myself having a nineteen course fine nighting with
all the wine carriers. You know, uh he was, he
was great. So but like, well, we're standing there and
that the three of us, they're like there's cameras on
jibs and things and da dah da da da da,
And you just got to be like, yep, I'm just

(33:46):
and you're we're just that we got to the stair
into the middle distance and that can throw people off.
And like I said, you because I guess when I
was thereking about halfway through the season or so.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Well, do you do realize, you know, like in the
moments when you're walking outside of television. So hopefully everybody
can relate to this feeling is that when you're you know,
walking down the street, or you start to like hyper
focus on a movement, and all of a sudden you
forget how to walk or get how to swallow. When
you're like having soup, You're like, hold on, how do
I do that?

Speaker 1 (34:15):
Let me start research.

Speaker 2 (34:17):
But like it's the it's kind of the same thing
that you have to forget about when you hyper focus
on walking. When you stand in front of that TV
and you can feel all that going and you feel
the countdown at five, four, three, two one, you kind
of have to forget that you're actually doing the TV thing,
because if you start to hyper focus on it, that's
when like you start to freak yourself out.

Speaker 1 (34:37):
These lights, right, Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:38):
You just gotta let you got. The way that I
always have enjoyed operating through Top Chef is reminding myself
that I am very much having an experience as well
for the very first time of my life.

Speaker 1 (34:53):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
So I get to I get to eat these seven
chefs food. Oh my gosh, how amazing is this. I
get to stand next to Camal, I get to have
this moment we're on a rooftop and Madison Wisconsin. Who
knows when this is ever going to happen.

Speaker 1 (35:07):
Rooftop at the farmer's market, cimbed up to the top
of the thing, like see from a fun Yeah. Yeah,
I felt I felt more famous that day than I
normally because people actually looking at you.

Speaker 2 (35:16):
No, they were looking at you. How many times do
you look back on your life and you're like, damn,
I wish I enjoyed that more. Oh, I wish I didn't.
I wish I could do it again.

Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yeah, I do think that part of it. I do
sort of go like I have a like this is
crazy as a way to settle myself down, like just
to remind myself, this is ridiculous, all right, now let's
do it, you know, like so so it sort of
takes you out of the like I gotta do good
at it, just like this is and to sort of
enjoy the moment. So I did wave with the people
across because I'm like, this is the fact that they're
over there. I want them to see that I see them,

(35:46):
and you know, I sort of I do like to
have fun in those moments. I think maybe comes being
a comedian to remind myself that this is also like
we were all kids in our bedroom sort of like
imagining what we would do and look at how somehow
here eating eighteen sauce dishes different with different sauces from
another era.

Speaker 2 (36:07):
I remember that. I remember, I remember the winning dish.
I don't remember all the dishes, but like, if something
places me very like, I mean, obviously here we are talking,
so I'm brought back to that very moment. It was
a potato, really simple potato with a creole sauce and
a goat cheese something and really it shouldn't have all
gone together. But Charlie, he's a chef in New Orleans.

(36:28):
He made that dish, and I was like, hold on,
something's working. Something happened where like I didn't have to
think about what I was eating. It just tastes good.

Speaker 1 (36:36):
That's I get that part of Top Chef now, that
like if you put it in your mouth and you're like, OK,
are you sort of thinking about it? It's probably not
working right? Great? Where if you just go, oh can
I get a bucket of that? Yeah, it's like, so
this is the part we talking about. So when I so,
I got the offer and I and I remember I
got the offer and it was like they want you
to come yay, and they're like, just for the quick fire.

(36:57):
I was like, uh, all right, so let me explain
to you that when I showed up, it was my
intention to get asked to stay. I showed up like
I'm going to be so easy to work with. I'm
going to provide so much value. I'm going to shut
up when it's time to shut up. I'm going to
be a professional. I'm going to say the line three
times an E me too. But my plan is that

(37:18):
I do so well that they asked me to stay
for the fight for the dinner. And that's what happened.

Speaker 2 (37:23):
It is and it was you didn't even have to
do any of what you just said. You could have
just been like, showed up without even stepping foot on
camera yet and told the producers. You know, I'd really
like to say with domination.

Speaker 1 (37:33):
I don't see myself in that. I don't feel like
I have that agency. I'm going to show I have.
That's my whole mentality. I'm going to prove to these.

Speaker 2 (37:40):
Here's the thing we when we invite people on Top Chef,
we're also very conscious of your time and the fact
that you flew to Madison Wisconsin that you left your
wife and your children, like it is still your time
and it's not compensated like a regular job.

Speaker 1 (37:58):
It is very much like it's a love of the game.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Yes, correct, and if you want to be there, so
no one's going to ever ask you to stay more
than what you initially.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
They don't understand how I work.

Speaker 2 (38:08):
I mean you get paid in food.

Speaker 1 (38:10):
Yeah, no, you get paid and you get paid in
like the fact that you get to tell everybody I
was going to shop. You know, it's like it's like
one of those credits that and you.

Speaker 2 (38:16):
Like, your room and accommodations and flight are all very
much taken care of.

Speaker 1 (38:20):
They made me pay the wait a minute, I would
have given you. They gave me hotels dot com, they said,
they sent me a link to hotels dot calm and
said you book now. You can find some affordable rooms.
That's what they they asked me. I by any frequent
flyer miles?

Speaker 2 (38:37):
Did they really? Oh my god, I really no.

Speaker 1 (38:40):
No, none of that happened. But so we do the
quick fire challenge, We do the thing I remember. The
thing that I remember are the jokes that I said
that that made the show. That's what I remember which
was what's so we were backstage tasting the food and
it was the food. I just remember this dish because
it was it was not a winning dish. It was
actually called out. It was uh the chef made the

(39:01):
dish with the raisin sauce, which was sort of like
there was just no way to make them. It was
just like a it was like it was it was
with the eggs.

Speaker 2 (39:09):
Yes, Michelle, Yes, yep, I'm impressing myself.

Speaker 1 (39:15):
Yeah, because that's been years. Yeah, and so I'm not
first off, I'm not an egg person, but I had
to put that aside and just go. But then just
the fact that like everybody sort of went that's a
And it's also she had to do a raisin sauce.
I mean it was like it was not some people
got like a garlic sauce. So it was like it
was the top chef does uh. And so when I

(39:39):
tasted it, everybody and I went like this, you know
that thing that happens when you're listening to one song
and then another song comes in and sometimes they mix perfectly. Well.
This is like if you're listening to a Taylor Swift
song and a Slipknot song comes in and I said
it backstage. It's always like say that out there, and

(39:59):
so I did, and I saw our face go, I mean,
we've made it up, but you know, but it was
just like funny. I remember that because I said it
and everybody laughed and then said say it out there.

Speaker 2 (40:10):
And I was like, here's the thing with like these
chefs too, where I feel like people like you. And
this is why it's so great to have guests on
that when you say something like that, it's not a fence,
like they're not like, oh, like these chefs are like
they kind of chuckle at it themselves because they probably
already know.

Speaker 1 (40:27):
Yeah, and she yeah, she knew she had raisin sauce.
And that's why I felt like it was like, this
is not a this she sort of got the bad card.
She got like she took the bad poker card. So
I and and but I was happy when it when
it made the thing. When it made, I was like
again I went in to put pride value. And then
I went and sat down after quick Fire Challenge because
I was leaving the next day and I just wanted
to and I sat down because they were like, okay,
we're done. I was like, I'll sit here and just wait.

(40:49):
And then so I came tapping the shoulder and in
classic come out fashion, come out. It's the only child
while she prepared to be in trouble. Uh. And they're like,
oh no, no, no, we just wonder if you want
to stay till tomorrow. I was like, yeah, I can
do that. Inside I'm like yes. I was like, let
me call my wife. I got to make sure that okay.

(41:09):
And then everybody's worried about it.

Speaker 2 (41:10):
She okays, it wasn't at your kids first day of
school or something.

Speaker 1 (41:13):
There was something. It wasn't somebody, there was something that
I had to like. I just was like, I knew
she would be fine with me staying, but you know,
you know, yeah, there was something. I don't think I
missed the first day of school, but there was some
sort of thing that was like yeah you can stay.

Speaker 2 (41:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (41:27):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (41:28):
I'm glad that you asked her, and I'm glad that
she said yes.

Speaker 1 (41:30):
Of course. Like I said, this is a there's some
of these offers that I get. It's like, it just
takes me back two times when me and my wife
were dating on her couch and her roommates in her
apartment with five people watching Bravo and being like, man,
this is good. Anyway, I got to go to the
San Francisco and try to do five minutes of stand
up comedy and hope I can make this career happen.

Speaker 2 (41:50):
We got to get your wife on.

Speaker 1 (41:52):
I mean that would be there.

Speaker 2 (41:53):
Your kids, I mean, stop it, we had kids on
this season? Maybe, I mean, I.

Speaker 1 (41:59):
Mean I think that you I mean my kids are Yeah,
that would be that would be fun.

Speaker 2 (42:03):
I love in the same way that I like working
with people like you like kids. You just you just
never know what's going to happen. You don't know, and
it makes it so much more interesting.

Speaker 1 (42:13):
And my kids, my oldest daughter, Sammy, sings and plays guitar,
and so my kids are sort of like ready for
for their Like I'm not We're like not pushing them
to do things, but this is what they do. My
middle kid actually performs with me sometimes and I do
stand up comedy. She sits on the edge of the
stage with the microphone and counts how many times.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
I swear and then you give her money?

Speaker 1 (42:33):
Yeah yeah no. Also, like she'll like correct things I say.
She has a bit that she does and we just
it sort of happened. It evolves out of me returning
to stand up. And then my seven year old is like,
this is she's in second grade, and you know, like
all kids of that age who are around who were
sort of young when COVID happened, she's feral. Wait.

Speaker 2 (42:50):
I have a question about stand up okay, because it
really is quite an art and quite a skill. Are
you born with comedic timing or is that something you
honed or when did it? Like, how do you know
when you when you get it?

Speaker 1 (43:06):
I think there is an aspect of like, so let's
just say people who find out they're funny or find
out that you're interested being funny, and then you hone
that skill. So everybody has been funny at some point.
They're like, even unfunny people have said any thing that
made people laugh.

Speaker 2 (43:23):
So you kind of take notes all the time.

Speaker 1 (43:26):
Landed as a kid, you're like, huh. And then if
people start reflecting that you are funny, since I think
it has to a stand up comic. You say things
that are funny, you notice that people are laughing, and
you go huh. Then you try to say things that
are funny. You know, some people laugh and you go huh,
and you start feel like you can control it, and
then people start telling you you become everybody's funny friend.

(43:47):
This is kmal, He's hilarious.

Speaker 2 (43:49):
But I think it's also the content and the things
that you choose to be funny about, because obviously your
joke is not going to land. If another comedian said,
it's all in the delivery of the timing, I also
think that just similar to food, it lands and it
becomes memorable when it feels a little bit personal.

Speaker 1 (44:05):
Yeah, ye, yep, yeah, and it's just.

Speaker 2 (44:07):
A little something where it feels like relatable.

Speaker 1 (44:08):
Well that's the big thing is like how do you
take because on some level this is I mean people
like cooking is science, like you need to do I
cook in my house, so I can you know, you
know what's up? I know it's up. Uh. And I
always say comedy is math. It's like there's certain rules

(44:29):
in place that you sort of go if you're going
to write a joke, you kind of there's structure, there's repetition,
there's set up. Set up, can't be too long, can't
be too short. The punchline you can has to build
if you only have one good punchline. You sort of
need to figureut how to you know, there's like a
certain like I think theame is math. It's because it
is writing, but it's math because you're like and then

(44:49):
the timing is part of the math too, like now.

Speaker 2 (44:53):
Right, because you start to feel what the audience.

Speaker 1 (44:55):
Is perm yeah, yeah, so, and then there's a part
of it that is like music, and there's part of
it that when you get up there becomes like it's
like jazz, where it's like, well, let me improvise a
little bit and see what I can get out of here,
and you start to and so every comic is different
under my imprize, but I improvise a lot.

Speaker 2 (45:09):
But when you say so, you were talking talking about
television hosting and you know whatever, in the same way
that I don't think about television hosting. You don't have to.
Of course we think about it, but you stand up there,
you know exactly what it feels like. You know the
cadence before you even go through it. You know the
rhythm of your show.

Speaker 1 (45:25):
Yeah, I mean, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Why is that you're saying it like a question?

Speaker 1 (45:31):
Because I think there's there's a little bit about stand
up comedy that is like who knows what's going.

Speaker 2 (45:36):
To happen, right, because every crowd's.

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Different, because everything's different, and also every crowd's different, every
space is different. Also if you have a new joke
like that you just wrote that morning, and you're like,
I think I'm going to open on this new joke
that I just wrote. So there's always an element of
like that. A lot of comics I think rely on
of like I could do it the way I did
it last night, or I could change it a little
bit and see what right, And so there's always not

(45:58):
with every comedian, but I think it was cool I
came out of. There's a little bit more like adding
elements of danger to it that if you're like, for example,
trying to think of a comedian like Jim Gaffigan, I
get the impression like it's written down on paper the
way he says it, like I wrote it this way.
I remember him and his wife write together. I get
to feel that these are routines that he's not really

(46:21):
improvising a lot, whereas Maren goes up there with like
a piece of paper that says the government and he
talks for twenty minutes.

Speaker 2 (46:28):
Because it's just more of a bullet point of the
story that.

Speaker 1 (46:30):
And he knows what that and he knows what that's
gonna remind him of. But he's also sort of figuring
it out with the audience.

Speaker 2 (46:35):
Okay, so I have a Can I ask you a
follow up question?

Speaker 1 (46:38):
No, I'm sorry, we're out of time. Thank you for coming. Yes,
you can ask me.

Speaker 2 (46:42):
A follow What happens when you start to feel like
it's not going to land or what do you do
in that moment?

Speaker 1 (46:50):
First of all, I think that has to happen. If
it's always landing, you're probably not trying hard enough. I
think that's actually I feel like that. I think it's
about what the like. If I'm headlining a show where
people have come out to see me, and I do
a few jokes that don't land, you can sort of
be honest.

Speaker 2 (47:05):
With you go, hey, you have to call it out.

Speaker 1 (47:09):
You can call it how badly it's doesn't land. Sometimes
if the statement is compelling enough, you can just move on,
Like if it doesn't land, but I said something people like, hmm,
you can go well, I appreciate the fact that they
all like the point I made, but I'd like to
make it funnier, you know, if it just bombs, you
gotta sort of like it's like the same thing you
say about Top Chef. You got to like time to

(47:30):
move on to the next thing, because if you sort
of get caught up in that moment, that's when you
can spiral. And every comic has done that.

Speaker 2 (47:36):
Okay, I have one more follow up question. Sorry, I
have I have a question slightly skewing same category, slightly
skewing to a more maybe serious answer. What when you
write your jokes or when you listen to jokes? Yes,

(47:58):
what is it is? That's why I've heard some I've
heard jokes that I don't particularly think are funny that
have that have because they crossed over a threshold which
I don't find humorous.

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Anything particular right now?

Speaker 2 (48:14):
Specific Yes, actually the I saw a clip of the
roast of Kepenheart. Okay, so several things in there. One
either didn't land with me because it's just not my
kind of humor. But also there just are things that
I don't think we should be yea turning into a

(48:37):
joke or a punchline. How what is the difference? What
is it the person telling certain jokes that I feel
crosses over? Is it just a I guess I'm trying
to understand how you arrived to being okay with doing
that or that comedy? How did you get.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
The person who told the joke? Like, why would you
tell that?

Speaker 2 (49:03):
Why would you?

Speaker 1 (49:03):
That's not funny, that's transgressive. But you don't have the
right to talk about that, correct, Okay? I think I
think we're thinking about the same person. Giant Teeth.

Speaker 2 (49:13):
Yes, Now, I didn't know who this guy was before I.

Speaker 1 (49:16):
Knew who he was because he's I'm in the yes,
of course, so I'll say that I was not surprised.
You're not like, that's normal guy telling a joke like that.

Speaker 2 (49:26):
Yes, No, that's his thing, that's his thing.

Speaker 1 (49:30):
Just we can cut this out if you want to.
I don't care, Tony Hinchcliff. We're talking about yes, okay, okay, yeah, yeah, Alex,
that is what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2 (49:39):
But how to like, here's the thing. There's a there's
a space obviously where he just is doing his life
or whatever. I know, jackshit about this man. But then
you're on you go on a national, hugely global.

Speaker 1 (49:54):
Global, maybe galaxy wide.

Speaker 2 (49:55):
We don't know of a person with a global presence.
And at what point did no one, No one say
maybe you know, maybe this isn't the guy for us.

Speaker 1 (50:07):
This is so fascinating. So I write a weekly newsletter
and right now about the Kevin Hart roast. So I'm
thinking about this a lot. Yeah. So this is why
when people earlier you were talking about, the comic goes
up there and knows what they're gonna sort of you
know what you're gonna say. And I think people sometimes
think that all comics are in it for the same reasons,

(50:29):
or that comedy is a like people say comics are
truth tellers, and I want to be like, no, some
comics are truth tellers. Some comics are just trying to
be funny. Some comics are just trying to get girls.
Some comics are sad broken people who use comedy as
a weapon. So and unfortunately it's like it's like it's

(50:53):
like they're superheroes and super villains. Not everybody who gets
superpowers uses them for good, right And comedy is a superpower,
just like cooking is a superpower, right Like, and I
think we think that everybody who got the superpower of
being funny would want to use it for good, and
good could mean like being like George Carlo where you're
speaking truth, the power or good could be like being like, uh,

(51:16):
I'm trying to think of a comic like well, Jim
Gaffigan who just wants you to laugh.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
But the crazy thing is I didn't watch the full roast,
but I saw it. I saw the clip. And if
we kind of like the the you know, you give,
you give media platforms to these moments that then represent
or are deemed okay because they made it to this stage,

(51:43):
as opposed to thinking about the choices that we make
and how it impacts all of us, all of our
communities around us. And I live in the space of
you are I mean, you do all the things like
you you are a good person. You spread the good.
It trickles out and it just is like this thing
because sometimes I get so overwhelmed by all the things

(52:06):
that need changing in this world and country that sometimes
all you can do is focus on the things that
you actually have full control over.

Speaker 1 (52:13):
Yep.

Speaker 2 (52:15):
But then moments in our country's culture, in society, you're like, okay,
but some that just gave someone else permission to maybe
not say the same thing in their circle, but be
that kind of person of course, yeah.

Speaker 1 (52:34):
And to be to be to be uninterested in being
a helper, and we are.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
We live in a place where we are led by example,
whether we understand it or not. Like we see something,
you're like, oh, okay, that was just broadcast to the
whole world, so maybe that's okay, you know what I mean?

Speaker 1 (52:51):
As opposed even if they don't tell their own verse
that joke, kurs spread that joke and put that joke
on social media. They he said that, and then.

Speaker 2 (52:58):
And then it becomes normalized and it feels less like
an issue because it's so familiar.

Speaker 1 (53:06):
It feels like, I guess that we're okay with that now, right, yeah, which.

Speaker 2 (53:11):
Which is no one that I've spoken to is okay without.

Speaker 1 (53:13):
Right now, I can't imagine your circles, like I can't
imagin anybody be Like, I don't know if that was
really made me laugh when he when he created an
image in all of our minds of George Floyd being
in hell, right, Yeah, yeah, over a joke that nothing
that nothing there had to do anything with George Floyd.

Speaker 2 (53:28):
Yeah, but correct me if I'm wrong. The majority of
people that were sitting up there laughed. Yeah, the majority
of the audience laughed. Now it could be this uncomfortable laugh.

Speaker 1 (53:38):
Yeah, there's like there's like the h like what do
I do right now? Also, it's self selects. They didn't
like force people to go there, so people going there
showed up for that thing. It's a roast, and there's
this culture of roast where it's like you're supposed to
be able to say that, there's this culture of roast
around saying the meanest thing you can think of.

Speaker 2 (53:56):
But isn't the roast supposed to be about Kevin Hart,
Like he signed up for it to be roasted, not
for us to roast these things that have happened.

Speaker 1 (54:03):
In our It's so funny because I'm literally in the middle
of like last night was I was writing this piece
that and it's just getting longer and longer. So I
would say that roast, in my mind, is a symptom
of a broken entertainment industry. The roasts started out at

(54:36):
the Friars Club in New York. First of all, right,
somewhere near us. The Friars Club is a men's club
started by entertainers and publicists. But it's a men's club,
so we're already talking about a thing that is like
and also no just white people or white people, white
passing people, because you know, like Danny Thomas is an error,
but he's white. But you know, so there's like he starts,
so it's a white men's club or white passing men's club.

(54:59):
The roast started out as a way, we want to
raise money for whatever causes we support. Oh, we'll bring
a guest of honor. And then because they had a
lot of comedians, they turned they became comedy roasts, right,
So that was a subset of like maybe trying to
do a good thing maybe, But then the roast became
so popular the sort of the raising money part of
it goes away, and they starts to become comedy roasts,

(55:21):
start to become a part of American culture, and they
start to air them on TV. But it was still
a self selecting group of like roasts back in the
sixties seventeen eighties were done by people who are friends
with each other.

Speaker 2 (55:33):
It's like giving your friend shit, yes, yeah.

Speaker 1 (55:36):
And it's also as a different entertainment industry. So CBS
might have a rot the Dean Martin Roast on and
you're like, I don't watch that. I watch ABC. I
watched Bonanza, and there's no sense that we all have
to be watching it, like you can watch Milton Burrel
roast Sammy Davis Junior, and those jokes are still they're
they're all trading in racial stereotypes and gender stereotypes and

(55:58):
sexism and your wife is so bubba uh, Sammy Davis Junior,
be carefully might steal your wallet, like that's what they're doing.
But it's a group of friends who sort of have
agreed that these are the things. Right in the early
two thousands, Comedy Central because they wanted cheap or the
late nineties or wanted cheap programming, and so they sort
of brought the roast back. But now it became about

(56:23):
it's not about doing good, it's not about a group
of friends. It's about who's the most famous person who
agree to be roasted? And then let's bring in the
comedians who are good at it. So now the comedians
don't actually Mark Mary tells u story about how he
was on the Chevy Chase roast, and it was just
clear Chevy Chase didn't know any of the comedians, he
wasn't friends with any of them, he didn't want to
be there. He just took a check and Comedy Central

(56:43):
aired that roast once because it was just bad. But
the problem is, and it should have been a sign
like maybe this is the thing we do. It just
became content, right, But when Comedy Central's doing it again,
you sort of had a million choices. So it's happening,
and you might hear about it, but it's over there. Well.
Netflix has taking up so much entertainment space that now
we all kind of feel like we have to take
it in and social media such that like you probably

(57:05):
couldn't steer clear of the roast.

Speaker 2 (57:07):
I didn't even watch it, but god, I feel like
I've watched.

Speaker 1 (57:09):
It because now the entertainment usry is set up our
algorithm in such a way that like it can sort
of force feed us content. So so here's what I'm saying.
And the roast isn't even about honoring Kevin Harrik, correct,
It's just about getting as many eyeballs as possible. And
one way that the algorithm has determined eyeball show is outrage.

Speaker 2 (57:30):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (57:31):
And so Tony Hinchcliffe, who very famously became to prominence
because he opened for Trump at a rally in Madison
Square Garden and said the thing about Puerto Rico's a
trash island and if you look at the it's not
there's nothing about it. Yeah, that's the same guy. It's
not even set up as there's not even a joke there.
It's just he called Puerto Rican island of trash and

(57:52):
there's not even it's not But Tony is known for this,
and so then Tony gets a position of like having
to top himself and so he and I'm not giving
him any bail at all. I'm just saying, but I
know how a power works. Well, you think that was bad?
He's in the how you think that was a bad position?
And it's funny because even when he tells the George
Floyd joke, he stumbles over it because I think some
inside Tony he was like this might be yeah, but.

Speaker 2 (58:14):
I have a question how did he even get invited?

Speaker 1 (58:17):
Like are certain comedians because the roast comedians are a
self selecting group. I'm I'm never gonna be invited to roast.
I'll be invited. I'm invited to top Chef.

Speaker 2 (58:27):
Yeah, so like we like, we like the ones that
we yeah.

Speaker 1 (58:30):
Yeah, So there are a group of comedians Jeff Ross,
Tony Hinchcliffe who that's what they're known for, almost more
than even doing stand up comedy. Actually, no more than
doing stand up comedy. They're known for like roasting people.
Now Jeff Ross comes out of more of the like
Don Rickles sort of like sort of elbowing a little, like,
you know, it's not. Tony Hinchcliffe is like, you know,

(58:52):
it's not. It's the cleverness is gone.

Speaker 2 (58:54):
How do you think Kevin Hart actually feels about it?

Speaker 1 (59:01):
Oh, you look at me like that, Alex. It's like
there's a black discussion happening here. I've never met Kevin Hart,
so I'll say that, first of all, I think if
you get to the position where Netflix is like we
were going to do a live roast of you, you've
made choices in your career where this is what you
signed up for, you know what I mean. So I

(59:22):
don't know that he's like he put out a video
the next day saying like basically sort of like in
Somethense saying, hey guys, it was just a good time.
Everybody did well. I think it's like, but.

Speaker 3 (59:34):
Kevin Hart got paid to sit there, and this is
you know, and Kevin Hart has been very explicit about
I'm trying to be the most famous, biggest, most famous
comedian of all time, and so being on the biggest
platform for one of the biggest events where you're at
the center of it is part of being you know,
he's made it clear he wants to be a billionaire,
Like I'm just saying, so I think this is what
he signed up for.

Speaker 2 (59:53):
But see, this all goes back to I think the
heart of a lot of the conversations that you've been
having on your podcast is the impact of our actions
have a trickle out effect. There is some thing that
happens with every action, every decision and choice that we

(01:00:16):
make as being visible people or just whatever. And you
like to think that there are just good people making
really good choices for the betterment of all of So
I'll say.

Speaker 1 (01:00:29):
This of what I've observed in my career, and this
is so this is part of the reason why I've
been determined to stay in Oakland, because it's like not
an industry town. First why I love it, and it's
not an industry town. So I don't make I don't
make a lot of decisions based on industry. Like when
I get eat, like do you want to come to
top Chef? That's do I want to leave my house
to fly to Milk to Madison in whatever, and we

(01:00:52):
have a thing. Yes, I'm making that decision to go
to the industry. I'm not walking around the streets of
LA where it's like, do you want to go to
this thing that's right over there? I don't want to
do it, but it is right over there, you know.
Do you want to audition for this thing? I don't,
but it is right over there. Like I have to
make decisions. Do you want to go hang out at
the Do you want to come to this white party

(01:01:13):
hosted by this person who has who has maybe been
accused of doing things. I don't even get those invitations
because I mean, for many reasons. So if your goal
is to be as rich and successful, as rich and
famous as possible, you're gonna start to end up in
rooms with people who are just there to sort of
help you achieve your goal. And those types of goals

(01:01:36):
you start to like a lot of like decisions based
on morality start to melt away, you know. And I'm
not calling anybody. I'm not calling him a heart a
bad person, but I'm saying, like, your decisions are just different, right,
So I'm not even in a position I sort of
like I'm not even positioned to get in the room
to be around those things. But I've also actively avoided

(01:01:56):
things where I'm like, I don't think I really want
to do that, you know. So, like when you talk
about my level of fame, I think I thought hard
to be this level of famous, and I feel like
it's like if Tom Cruise is here, I fought hard
to just sort of you know. So the thing I
think is interesting and this is sort of is that
it really hit home for me. The whole thing with
with with Tony Hnscliff. I feel like he's gotta he's

(01:02:18):
got to. Oh that's his. I don't want to put
too much on Kevin Hart. Tony Hinchcliffe said it right now.
Netflix had access to all the jokes, and they did.
They cut some jokes out. So somebody somewhere Netflix said
this joke is too there's a joke about Malania that
apparently got cut out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, okay, interesting. Yeah,

(01:02:38):
So there have jokes that have been come out. There's
like a list of jokes that they cut out that
don't seem any worse, but it's just clearly like it's
because the people in power are like not power. So
that joke was approved dot I'm not saying Kevin not,
but somebody approved it. So but then what I saw
is there's some people in Minneapolis, and I just did
a whole bunch of I was in Minneapolis filming some
stuff and talked people in Minneapolis. After that, the Alex

(01:03:00):
Pretty was murdered and Renee Good was murdered, and so
Minneapolis is like right now in the middle of their
like activism season because of all that, and there was
a press conference held by George Floyd activists who are like, hey,
we don't think that's funny at all, and they called
it and it's black people, and they called out Kevin Hart.
And so I'm like, by the time this airs, maybe

(01:03:21):
he will have said something. I don't know, but it
does the message even get to him that those black
people are mad, like I don't, you know, Because you
have to be able to be in the space where
somebody can go, hey, can I show you this thing?
This His algorithm may not bring that to him, you know,
or it also maybe it brings to you but you
scroll past it. But you have to be somebody has

(01:03:41):
to go, hey, man, I think you need to address
this because I don't know that he even take because
he may, I don't know that he takes it in.
And I get that I've never met him. I've met
people who work with him, but I've never met him.
And the thing that I think that we're all in
the middle of is like, the reason why that George
Floyd joke hurts so bad is because things aren't better.

Speaker 2 (01:04:05):
Correct, It almost feels like things are also good.

Speaker 1 (01:04:09):
No, they're they're o their backwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah, they
have they have fallen back. So it just feels like,
damn it man and and and Kevin his name is
and Kevin Hart's not related to George. It's not even
like you can't.

Speaker 2 (01:04:23):
There is no connection whatsoever.

Speaker 1 (01:04:26):
Yeah, So it just feels like Tony Hnscliffe, which Puerto
Rico's a trash island. Why are you saying that in
a city like New York where there's all these Puerto
Ricans and you have and what are you talking? And
then later go, I have vacation there. It's actually yeah,
So like it just he's reaching for It's like third rail.
He's a third rail comedian. I just want to reach
for the most shocking thing, and so that I can

(01:04:48):
hold on to it. And because there's a period after
you said the Porto Rico thing, it looks like his
career is gonna like because Trump hadn't won yet. But
then Trump won and Tony feels like, oh God, he's
been vindicated.

Speaker 2 (01:04:58):
So can my eyes roll farther back into my head?

Speaker 1 (01:05:01):
Yeah? So I just think it comes down to, like,
and this is the thing I realized, and part of
this podcast is like I feel like comedians have done
a lot of not all, Like there's some comedians who've
really done some harmful shit in the discourse of this country.
And I'm I'm fine with dirty joke tellers. I'm fine
with jokes that I don't agree with. I mean, I
came up in comedy clubs. I don't have to agree

(01:05:22):
with your joke. But when you then, like sit next
to the president, who are sit next to a candidate
who's actually talking about like repealing women's right to choose
and taking DEI out of every day, out of schools
and at a workplace, and he wants to do mass
deportations and you're bringing him on your podcast or open

(01:05:42):
form at the thinkta problem. Believe me, I love twisted
dirty joke tellers where you're like, but people are being
harmed every day, and I don't think these people are
seeing it because we have different news feeds. But I
just feel like part of this podcast, and I didn't
know I's gonna do it with you, is to directly

(01:06:04):
present an alternative view of how comedians can do it.
But I didn't know you were going to be the king.

Speaker 2 (01:06:09):
I didn't either. But here's the thing. See, these are
my follow up questions. One question, one answer, you led
me to the next, and then I actually had like
I didn't know it was going to go there either.

Speaker 1 (01:06:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (01:06:18):
Wow, I just could not wrap my brain around it so.

Speaker 1 (01:06:23):
Well. Like I said, I would say to me, it's
like a superhero thing. Some people are born with superpowers
and join the X Men or the Avengers, and some
people are born with superpowers and say, I can use
this to a cru so much power and steal and
and I can and I can use this to become
a more powerful version myself and takee Because.

Speaker 2 (01:06:44):
To your point where you were saying when I asked you,
I think the original question is how do you know
your comedic timing? How do you know you pay attention
to what you say and the reaction that you get.

Speaker 1 (01:06:53):
And then what reaction do you want to get?

Speaker 2 (01:06:55):
Right, And so I carry it like.

Speaker 1 (01:06:56):
Some comedians like the like they get they get caught
up in the in the in the cringe reaction or
the because the shock is supposed to mean that you're good.
Oh my god, you've shocked me as supposed to just
like I just want people to laugh, and I want
people to I want people laugh, and I want people
to think, and I want people to actually like leave
feeling hopeful, and I want people to like, like, we're
gonna I'm asking a second an organization to support so

(01:07:17):
you can help people. And I understand that that means that,
like that there's gonna be a ceiling on my fame
because I'm not just going to try to get into
any every little thing I can, you know.

Speaker 2 (01:07:27):
But it's because you have morals and like, yeah, you
have a dress.

Speaker 1 (01:07:32):
I was raised by a mom who came out of
the civil rights movement and said you have two responsibilities
to provide for your family and to make it better
for your community. And then as I moved to the bank,
I found out my community was including more people than
I realized.

Speaker 2 (01:07:44):
Right, But what it's kind of similar to sometimes the
greatest jokes and the greatest food kind of when we
went back to that quick fire now are the ones
that you just don't even have to think about. They
just stick and they land and you're like, damn, yeah
that was good, and then you think about it. Here
we are three years later, I'm thinking about that dish yep.

(01:08:08):
And some of the most important jokes are the ones
you think about later and it actually changes the way
you think about something or how you move through the world,
or just like I think it stops you in your tracks.

Speaker 1 (01:08:19):
I think it comes down to like what Because I
just want to wrap up that this whole point about
about Tony Hinchcliffe is that I just have seen since
the Trump era some comedians are more interested in access
to power than they even care about being funny. And
I'm a comic who like supports policies I agree in.

(01:08:40):
But I don't want to go to anybody's inauguration. Yeah nope,
not even people agree with Why is that because I
don't want I don't want to be seen as that
person's surrogate, Right, I will vote for you. I might
even tell people to vote for you, but I don't.
But I don't want to look like I'm trying to
get access to your power, like like I'm trying to

(01:09:00):
like you know, or that you know. I don't want
need to be in the I don't need I'm not
really a VIP section guy.

Speaker 2 (01:09:05):
If you ran for president, I would show up at
all of your pre things and I would show off.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
At your well thank you. And that's an alternate timeline
because not happened here. So you want to do stand
up comedy, huh No.

Speaker 2 (01:09:19):
I don't.

Speaker 1 (01:09:19):
I think you do.

Speaker 2 (01:09:20):
I don't you do. I think that improv in my
world of reality television is something that is very much
like a it's a superpower.

Speaker 1 (01:09:31):
Yeah, Like, I.

Speaker 2 (01:09:32):
Don't want to be funny. I just have learned and
honed throughout my time on television that the greatest time
that I have is when I'm less in my head
and I'm more in the moment reacting to certain things.

Speaker 1 (01:09:47):
Yeah, it's funny. I had this when you're talking about
the superpower because I think because there's a thing that
happens to me and my daughter follow this Instagram person
who her whole profile is really clearly trolling people, but
the discussing things she does with food.

Speaker 2 (01:10:02):
I have a couple of those people on my feed,
and I.

Speaker 1 (01:10:04):
Feel like that's the that's they're like the Tony Hinchcliffe
of food, Like why are you doing that? But you
have all the elephants? Why would you? Why would you
deep fry that? Why would you put that on a
Blackstone grille? Yeah? Like, and I feel like that's the
equivalent of like the of the of the Maga comedian,
like you just why.

Speaker 2 (01:10:21):
Would you don't say that that's a beautiful problem.

Speaker 1 (01:10:23):
That's a beautiful thing you started with and you ruined it. So, man,
this podcast really turned a direction. Uh So, my penultimate
question for you this is called Who's with Me? We
want people to know things they can do support in
the world, give us some foundation or a cause you
think people spaid more attention to.

Speaker 2 (01:10:42):
Okay, so it really to me and this kind of
I'm going to give you a story leading up to
why a lot of the organizations that I like to
support are ones in service of kids. I had an
incredible childhood and everything that I trace back to. I
think all the bits of goodness that I am and
that I have become are because my parents similar to you,

(01:11:08):
instilled values in the same way that they never made
me feel like I had to be better or do
something worthy of their love, like the true unconditional love.
And I'll give you an example. Then when I was
a kid, I would I would cook horrible food for
my parents, and I would do really badly in ballet school,

(01:11:32):
and they were still very proud of me, and you
could I could feel it when they said I was
just really so proud of you. They say that exact
with the exact same feeling as to when now as
an adult, I get an Emmy nomination or I get
a job or something. So I never feel like I

(01:11:52):
have to just constantly one up myself in order to
have their love. And I believe truly the foundation of
a really great person is having complete, true unconditional love
surrounding you. And that can be mentors, family, friends, parents, cousins,
friend whatever, it doesn't matter. So that being said, one

(01:12:13):
of the foundations that I'm incredibly passionate about is the
Emery Lagasi Foundation. He's not only supporting the community in
New Orleans, but also nationwide. He is a global name,
and so what their foundation does is collects resources to
then spread out to several other different resources, all supporting
the kids in the community, whether that be after school programs,

(01:12:35):
things that are culinary related, or just places for them
to go for mentorship and community. And I think that
is the foundation of creating good people. Another one is,
because we're in New York City, City Harvest that collects

(01:12:56):
food they call it rescuing food for over forty years
from all over the city and then dispersing to food
pantries and different communities that are in need. I think
anybody being hungry in this country, let alone to New
York City, is absolutely outrageous. With the amount of abundance,
food is the number one thing that goes into the landfills.

(01:13:16):
It's just it is heart wrenching. One of four children
don't know where that their next meal is going to
come from, which is heart wrenching and completely unnecessary. So
those are two that I feel very passionate about because
I feel like they're doing a lot of great work.

Speaker 1 (01:13:29):
Thank you. Can I ask you one more question? Yeah,
because you brought up something that this is another subject
that has come to mind, and I've heard you talking
about this, and if this is too big a subject yep,
myself to come back for another podcast. But I have
a lot of friends who are translationally adopted. Yeah. My goddaughter, Olivia,
who I wrote about in the book Who Is Government

(01:13:50):
that I wrote with Michael was invited to write with
Michael Lewis, is black born in Florida, adopted by two
white lesbians from Maine who then realized you can't raise
a black daughter in Maine. Wow, and then moved to Oakland,
which is how I met and met them and their
family friend. Olivia's my goddaughter, and she's now in law school.

(01:14:11):
And I've heard you talk about your being a being
an adopted you know, transracially, and there's a lot of
talk there's I don't know if you saw that clip
David French came out with recently. David French, you reast
for the New York Times. He's white, his wife's white.
They adopted a black daughter for me Ethiopia. And he said,
I didn't realize he's a conservative. I didn't realize racism

(01:14:33):
was actually as bad as it is until one day
I picked my daughter from school. She was crying. Her
and her Latina friend were crying because the truck had
driven past and called her the N word, right, And
that was his first realization that racism was like a
thing that wasn't just a thing that people that black
people were making a big deal out of. And I
had feelings about that. And I know, translation adoptees, you
feel like one of the challenges of being a translation

(01:14:54):
adoptee is that your parents to just think of you
as like they don't think of your race.

Speaker 2 (01:14:59):
Oh no, my parents absolutely from the moment I was adopted,
them saying adopt the word adoption before I even recognized
what that even meant. They're filling the home that s
consciously I'm picking up on with, you know, dolls that
look like me and introducing me to different books. My
mom would read me the Korean Cinderella growing up, not

(01:15:20):
the regular Cinderella, you know. And they did everything that
they knew how to do. I also grew up in
a place that wasn't perhaps like Maine and you know,
with very little people that look like you. I grew
up with other adopted friends. I grew up with other
Korean Americans that were very much in our neighborhood. I
think the biggest thing I think for something that I

(01:15:42):
have had to learn, and I think it's probably accelerated
how I find my voice and being outspoken is the
assumption or the stereotype that I am submissive, that I
am more subtle that when I speak up as a woman,
as a woman in the kitchen and being an Asian
American woman, that got, oh, oh, you're not supposed to

(01:16:06):
do that, like, oh my god.

Speaker 1 (01:16:09):
You can I tell you something? Oh my god?

Speaker 2 (01:16:11):
H like me giving an opinion or having a pushback
on something, I will never it comes. It's coming up
a little bit more, or maybe I'm more aware of
it now as an adult. But I could say the
exact same thing. And I have said, you know, fuck
a million times, whether that be in a really great
way or in like a really aggravated, pissed off way.

(01:16:33):
But when I say it, people react differently than if
someone else says it, versus when somebody else says it.
And so for me, it is my service to be
like to. I don't want to say the opposite of
submissive because like right, and I'm allowed to do that.

(01:16:55):
And the more I do it, the more it becomes familiar,
and the more and more people recognize that that is
something that's everybody else can do. I think that's the
biggest thing that I had to fight against as I
got older, less so growing up in Michigan as an
Asian American, but now as an adult, especially on television
on a network that I am, Robert doesn't have a

(01:17:18):
lot of Asian Americans in comparison to the other casts,
and so for me, like, yeah, I'm gonna go toe
to toe.

Speaker 1 (01:17:25):
You're gonna if you want to say, you're gonna say yeah,
get used to it. Okay, I love it, man, I
can keep talking. And so we were things to say.
I had another plan for this interview, but you just
sort of made it the Christians Show.

Speaker 2 (01:17:43):
I didn't know.

Speaker 1 (01:17:44):
I didn't know where we're going to go. I thought
I had a plan, and you just sort of like.

Speaker 2 (01:17:47):
The best ones are the improvisation. Is that a word?
Am I saying that?

Speaker 1 (01:17:51):
Right?

Speaker 2 (01:17:51):
IMP, that's the word improvisation or improvisation improvisation. I put
the wrongs on the fast.

Speaker 1 (01:18:00):
Yeah, conversation. I think now I feel like now the
thing were talked about, I forgot how to walk for
some how do I swallow?

Speaker 2 (01:18:06):
And we've come full certain.

Speaker 1 (01:18:08):
Uh and my last my last question the podcast, this
is called Who's with Me? Are You with Me?

Speaker 2 (01:18:14):
I will forever be with you.

Speaker 1 (01:18:17):
You're my retirement plan. So you know, I have three
kids in you, so like I'm just so you can
talk to the other girls about who has to like
you know, but like I'll live with them, but I'll
have to have a job with you. That's my plan. Okay, good,
Thank you, Thank you for listening watching Who's with Me?
With Me? Wie Ca Mabell. Shout out to Rabbagrant Productions,

(01:18:40):
who's producing this with me and my company who knows
best productions. Shout out to Malcolm Gladwell's Pushkin's Industries, who's
bringing this episode to you right now. Shout out to everybody.
Just shout out

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