April 13, 2026 • 44 mins
Amy Winehouse rewrote the rules of modern songwriting by refusing to fake a single feeling. In this episode, Kai and Emmanuel explore the BBC archive and find how a teenage jazz obsessive became a generational storyteller. Someone who insisted on truth over polish, grit over gloss, and emotional precision over pop perfection. Through her own words and early performances, we trace how Amy crafted songs that felt like conversations, confrontations, and confessions all at once - and why her radical honesty still reverberates.
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Before we get going here, some real talk.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
The BBC has been sitting on decades of tape, and
Emanuel and I are just two guys trying to make
sure the good stuff doesn't get buried.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
The way you can help us do that.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Leave a review doesn't have to be a long one,
just a few lines about how the show is changing
your thinking.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And think about who in your.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Life has a strong opinion about David Attenborough or Muhammad
Ali or Meg Ryan or anyone else.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We've covered for them this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Because you know, I'm saying whatever they think they know,
they probably don't know the whole story.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's kind of the point. Okay, let's get started.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
From BBC Studios, I'm Chushkin Industries, this is Big Lives.
I'm a Manuel Jochi, I'm Kai. Right on this show,
we take a single cultural icon and we break down
their life and their legacy using the BBC's vast archive.
And today we are talking about but one and the only,
(01:20):
Amy Winehouse.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Okay, I'm excited about that. I haven't thought about Amy
Whinehouse a long time.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Okay, watch the single sort of stock image caricature that
you have when you think of Amy Whinehouse.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I think it's two things.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I think it's like this sultry, soulful person and this
still sound weird, the image of like chipped fingernail.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Pay, chipped fingernail pain.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
That is somebody who could give somebody who does not
care that they're walking around with chip fingernail pay.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
This is on the side. I love it when you
try not to cuss. But yes, you're right, she is
someone who did not give a fuck at least that
was basically her general demeanor, in addition to being this
amazing British singer songwriter who was a musical phenomenon. Absolutely
and just to say, you know, she was famous for
singing these bluesy jazzy songs in this very old timy
(02:18):
kind of way. But yes, she really struggled with drugs
and alcohol. She really sadly passed away at twenty seven.
And now I feel like it's the world she is
most talked about in now is like as a member
of like the twenty seven Club, this group bringing artists
(02:40):
who all passed away around their.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Age, Kurt Cobain and the like, right.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Like a kind of cautionary tale about fame and success
and artistry that we all kind of know, right, But
it was interesting going through the BBC archive looking at
her because she's someone whose whole career really is present there.
She's been giving interviews to the BBC since she was
like nineteen years old.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Wow, Yeah, that's she's the perfect example for this show.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And I don't know, when I was going through stuff,
there was this thing that really stuck out to me.
She did this interview with a radio presenter. His name
is Craig Charles, and you know, in it, they're talking
about how so much of her music actually it seems
like was really legitimately about her own life, Like some
of her biggest hits were about a lot of the
(03:30):
struggles she was hamming with drugs and with alcohol. And
in this interview, visit presenter Greg Charles asked her about that.
You know, he's just asking like, how does that relationship
work between your real life and this stuff that you're
writing for us.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
You know, you've been.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Quote saying if I haven't done it, I just can't
put it into a song.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It has to be able to biographical.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yes, right, So let's go back rehab.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
I mean in also, if I mean my managers, did
I had a particularly bad episode and I had to
go and stay with my dad for a bit, and
my managers came to my dad's house and said said that,
you know, we want to take you to this place.
I said, what happens if I don't want to go?
You know, because you know, I toweach their own. But
for me, if I can't sort myself out, then I don't,
you know. I mean, I don't know if it's been
(04:16):
a woman being a Jewish woman or just being made
like being really hard headed.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You know.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
I think if I can't sort myself out, then I'm
gonna sort me out.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Just to hear her voice. I mean, you know, it's
been a long time since I heard her voice.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, And I mean the thing that I remember, very
viterally as a child listened to her music was like,
I felt like we fell in love with her, because oh,
this woman is really real. She's in that clip talking
about one of the most famous songs, Rehab, and I
remember listening to that song and I'm like, wow, I'm
watching a woman fall apart. And it was that kind
of uneasy kind of relationship. And I think when I
(04:51):
went through all of these different clips and things that
I'm about to play you. This is a question that
is so specific to Amy that I've been having that
I want to talk to you about, which is, did
she really have to be that authentic?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Like?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Did she have to be like that public in her
falling apart in order to connect with her fans to
be the musical genius that ultimately she was?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Right?
Speaker 6 (05:12):
Like?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Does genius require putting yourself in danger?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Exactly? And that's what I want to talk about today
when we come back from.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
The break I'm in.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Welcome back to Big Lives, I mean, Manuel Jochi, and
we're talking about Amy Winehouse. Do you think you're going
to be a big star.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
I don't think I'm ever going to be real in
the mainstream, you know. I don't think how many people
are ever going to really listen to me.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You know, I don't know about that.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
You know, I like it, honestly, we will think you're
gonna go stratospheric.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So Kai Amy was born in London in the early
eighties to this family that was just really into jazz music,
white Jewish upbringing, but like you know, her dad was
an aspiring musician who never quite got his career off
the ground. Her Grandma loved old jazz standards.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Like Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
HM totally. Now, her family was a little chaotic, which
we will get too later, but music was the thing
that they connected on. So even though she is someone
who looks like really she should be a part of
a golf kind of like punk band. I don't know
if you remember what Amy looked like, you know, very dark,
heavy laid on eyeliner, big beehive hair, like this woman
(06:34):
who should have been in Metallica or whatever, basically ends
up sounding like a reincarnation of your Elephis Gerald's, like
of your old timey black jazz musicians, which ends up,
as you said earlier, just being so distinctive. And I
just want to point to this one BBC interview that
happens really early on in her career, when she was nineteen.
Speaker 7 (06:56):
When I heard Amy Winehou's voice. Now this is going
to be quite a few weeks about somebody said check
this out, and I thought, why has this woman been
hiding all of these years? And then I discovered and
that she is only ninety, But that voice could have
been lifted from about fifty years ago. It's been everywhere,
and Amy is from Camden, London town synonymous with Indie
(07:17):
and I don't.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Know, it's just really incredible to hear her as a teenager,
like literally clearing her throat something on the radio.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
I'll just play that, which I could say it burts
my home like you did in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
It's not bad Grew.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Her voice is so intoxicating.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, it's singular like, it's raw, it's soulful, and.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
It was shocking to hear her when she started right like.
I can remember first when I first heard her and
being like, who is that?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
What is that voice? You know, you hadn't heard anything
like it in a really really long time.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
It really came out when I was listening to these interviews,
because the reaction is just tons of people being like, wait,
why do you sound like this? How do you sound
like this?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
I mean not that you shouldn't sound like this, right Like,
I don't remember that big in the early reaction being like, oh,
you're a white lady trying to sound black like that
never came up.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
It was just like, this is what you sound like
and it's great. Am I right?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Well, so this is the thing. I didn't remember that either,
but then you listen to the tape and the race
stuff is in there. It is in there from the beginning.
I'm just going to play you this interview she did
in two thousand and three as an interview she did
with presenter Janis Long when she was just nineteen.
Speaker 7 (08:44):
That voice, where did your voice come from? Did you ope?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Me mouth? And that was it? That's the way you
say it now.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
I used to sing more musical theater kind of lies,
a kind of the show were going out, you know
that kind of stuff like astle moment or that kind
of Yeah, like that's kind of overdone.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Though.
Speaker 7 (09:02):
Do people think you're black until they see other Some
people who say that because you can.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Some people, yeah, some people.
Speaker 7 (09:08):
Not everyone.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
I mean there's a couple of people that said, oh
you're not black.
Speaker 6 (09:13):
Oh you're young.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
You can I say you sound black? I thought you
was black? Really, I thought you was black?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Man.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
You just just you're Jewish?
Speaker 4 (09:24):
How do you get I mean, do all Jewish girls
thing like that?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I hope not.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I would never have been like, oh, she's a black person,
But when you hear it now, it's like, oh.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
How is she so young? Sounding like right, that's right?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
The age thing.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
How did it all start for you?
Speaker 5 (09:42):
I guess when I left stage school.
Speaker 8 (09:43):
That's when I because what stage school did you go to?
Speaker 5 (09:45):
I went to Sylvia Young.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
She actually went to a theater school for a little
bit and got well, depending who you listened to, got
kicked out or voluntarily left, and you'd expelled.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
In not so many ways. Yeah, why it was nothing
on looking at my friends, it was nothing.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Small behavior proper.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
You're badly behaved, girlic I probably was when I was fifteen.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
But what is clear is that the songwriting that we're
going to talk about a lot today, that started really early.
Like she started writing songs age thirteen. I'm going to
play another glip of her just talking about that, like
again one of her earliest interviews.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
I think when I was growing up, the music that
was in the pop charts or the you know, the
music that was that people were releasing at the time,
I just thought, this isn't music. This is waltered down
or this is you know, just crap. Someone else has
written it for you and you have to sing it.
It's very much the case of some music today. So
I really started writing music just as to challenge myself.
You know, to see what I could write, or you know,
(10:53):
just because there was nothing else there that I could
listen to at the time. I felt like I had
nothing new that was coming out at the time that
really represented me or the way I felt. So, you know,
I just started writing really my own stuff and from
personal experience.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, So basically, how old is she in this that clip?
She's she's nineteen. Still, she's still that young.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And it's like, I don't see what I need, so
I'm going to write it.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I don't see what I need. I'm putting it out
into the world. And just to bring you into that era,
you're in the early two thousands. This is like peak
pop and peak assembly line pop groups that we're doing
really well. So like your Encincs, your Backstreet Boys, even
your Britney Spears, these different people who you know, they're
all creating a certain type of music that is kind
(11:42):
of derivative from a lot of R and B music
and black R and B music in the late nineties.
And right from the beginning, Amy's reacting to that era
of manufacturing pop scars. She's sort of figuring out, you know,
what her sound is going to be like. But she
knows basically she doesn't want to be like them. And
then this thing happens in her late teens, right shortly
(12:05):
before these interviews that she's given, which is, she meets
a guy and this guy will change her life in
a very specific way, which is that he breaks her
heart and stumps all over it. Yeah, and he does
this so badly that Amy's like, you know what, I'm
going to write the songs about this. And basically off
(12:27):
of the back of the power of these songs, Amy
gets kind of like her first big record deal, and
in two thousand and three, at just like twenty, she
comes out with her debut album and she calls it
Frank like both a nod to one of her heroes,
Frank Sinatra, but also a literal nod to the fact
(12:48):
that much of what she's writing about in his album
are actual thobs about this man who broke her heart.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You picked the wrong one, sir. Whoever this man was,
he fucked with the wrong lady. And she was like,
I'm gonna tell the world about.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
You one percent stronger than me?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Who is that about?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Because that's a right kick in the testicles for a bloke, that.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Is is it?
Speaker 9 (13:10):
You?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Should be I'm lady and you're my lady boy.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I mean, come.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
On, he sounds X very X.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I've even thought about that, Like, you know, you have
those people who are like, oh right, my dream is
to be in the liner notes of somebody's album, and
I'm like, no, you don't. You don't want that. You
do not want that. But anyways, this album, Frank is amazing.
But and just looking through some of the tracks, you know,
there's a song that's like very clearly about her dad
and how he's a bit of a philanderer, and it's
(13:44):
called what Is It About Men? But yeah, most of
it is about how much of a loser her boyfriend was,
And so yeah, you just have like this woman who
is real? Who is Frank? Who is laying it all
out there. But one of the interesting things about that
album is that Amy actually didn't like it that much,
(14:08):
the album, the album itself. She gave his interview where
she says, you know, some things on this album make
me go to a little place that's fucking bitter. I've
never heard the album from start to finish. I don't
have it in my house. But marketing was fucked. The
promotion was terrible. Everything was a shambles. Wow, So she
makes this album, but I actually it does really well.
It announces her as a person in the UK at least.
(14:31):
But she's mad and I was trying to figure out, well,
what's she mad about, because it seems like a lot
of these songs are great songs and she's written them.
But it seems like she was mad because her producers
and songwriters actually added a couple of songs to that album. Right.
She's like, they basically punched it up her album to
(14:51):
make it a little bit more generic and a little
bit more palable and accessible, is how she saw it,
and she doesn't like that. She doesn't want to be
packaged as anything other than herself, and she's just like,
you guys don't understand what I'm doing. You don't know
what you're doing. But anyways, the album itself, despite her criticism,
is a massive success, and people are drawn to her
(15:14):
because of the authenticity that they hear on that album. Right,
and by people I'm talking about, yes, the general public
in the UK and in Europe like myself, but also
the press and specifically for British tabloids. I think it's
very clear. Looking at headlines from this period. They see, oh,
this is a celebrity, a burgeoning celebrity who is super open,
(15:36):
very accessible, and is a little bit different, Like she
presents differently right the outfit she wears. She's a very
very comfortable sort of person that is very photographable, very quotable,
and will sell papers.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
I mean, when I go on stage, I like to
stress as slutty as possible because it makes me dance
bit for some reason. But I do it because I'm
an assertive young woman and I'm not trying to sell
recordspace on the way I look. And that's why I
do it. Apart from the fact that I like dressing,
I guess that, but do you know what I mean
stuff like that. I like to make a point like that.
Like there was a bit in the paper Amy Wine
has her outfits she had like a Doug's dinner. She's
(16:14):
great to listen to, but when you look at you
just feel sick.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
She just dresses so badly.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
She's so trashy.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
I was like, oh my god, I'm famous.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And so from the beginning there's this sort of interrogation
of her and focus on her and the British tabloids.
They're talking a lot about like how she looks and
her weight, like speculation early on, oh does she have
too much of it? Just like that kind of weird
early two thousands weight loss culture rubbish, you know thing.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Because she's a woman. She's a woman, let's talk about
her body.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Totally and definitely a sexual woman. You know, she's singing
about her love life for some of her sexual escapades
in that first album, and that continues for a couple
of years after she puts out her first album. She's
not putting out music, but she's in the public eye
a sort of this object of fascination, and that conversation
about how she looks, her health and this sort of
fixation with her is in the conversation right around the
(17:08):
time that she's getting ready two release has second album.
And I actually found an interview from that time, just
a few months before that second album was released, and
she's asked about this by presenter Craig Charles. I'll just
play back cup for you.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
You know, when you get when you get to that
certain stage, that certain level of fame, there's going to
be people digging at you all the time. I was
watching a Telly last night and there was a program.
Do you see that thing on last night about celebrity
weight loss and things like that? And they were like it,
and they had all sorts of experts talking about you
and and other celebrities. But I'm talking to it tomorrow,
(17:43):
So I was obviously more interested in you and talking
about how you know your weight loss and I mean
really personal things. I mean, how does how do things
like that affect you?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Just look over your head.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Or oh yeah it kind of guys I've made.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
I mean, like it's not like my friends sitting around
going why she said thing, Well, you know it's it's
it's speculation, is that. You know, like I said, people
have got something. It keeps people busy, you know, like
everyone's got to do something with their time.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Do you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
I'm lucky that I can sing songs that make me happy,
that I wrote about stuff that, you know. I'm lucky
that I get to give myself therapy every day by
singing songs about a really tough time in my life.
Not everyone can do that. Everyone's go and talk about
other people. You know, I'm very lucky, very very lucky.
Other people aren't so lucky. I don't care if they
want to talk about me. They can do whatever they
want as song as I can go home and go
(18:29):
oh I had a good days but whatever.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yeah, that sounds like a dangerous past.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
She's talking about walking there. I mean, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
What's interdingwing me about that clip is how she points
to just the idea of this is therapy for me
in a real, genuine, artistic way. I'm sort of finding
a way to turn the ship of my life and
process it through making this work.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
I mean this it gets back to your opening point
here of like she doesn't have a choice but to
be authentic.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
She says that she's saying, she's saying that she's like, listen,
and she's so graceful about it, right, She's like I
can't Yeah, and it feels genuine to believe her. But yes,
you were right to hear warning bells kind of coming,
because I feel like from this point on, Amy's on
a train and she's not gonna be able to get
off of that train even when it starts to harm.
(19:21):
And I'll tell you more about that after the break. Okay,
welcome back to Big Lives. Today, we're talking about Amy
Winehouse and where we are now. Kai, Okay, we're in
(19:42):
the year two thousand and six. Amy Winehouse is twenty
two going on twenty three, and she is at the
height of her stardom. She's just put out her second album,
Back to Black.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
This is the beggar that we are now.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, Like this is her master work. You know, this
is where that song Rehab is on. You've got songs
like Tears Dry on their own, Like, there's so many
amazing songs on this album them and just like Frank,
which came before, this album in a lot of ways,
is mostly autobiographical, and you know, if the first album
(20:18):
was about like a lot of heartbreak and men and
sort of being like this young twenty something woman running
around London, these songs are also about heartbreak, but they
also about a lot of other things. Right, She's written
this album at a time when she's found out that
her most recent boyfriend, this guy that she would eventually marry,
(20:38):
had cheated on her. So she's writing about that, but
she's also writing about a crazy depression that she's been
in as a result of that, and she's struggling with drugs.
Hence the song Rehab. Yeah, the famous refrain like said
I had to go to rehab, and I said no, no, no,
no no.
Speaker 10 (20:57):
Does your manager tell you often say right, that's it,
You're not going to drink anymore.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
When you're going on telling.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
My manager, it just rolls his eyes and he trusts
my tour manager and my tour manage. Just let my
dad and brother and husband roll into one my boyfriends,
my actual boyfriend. You're not drinking, Diomi, And I'll be like, okay,
I'm going to the toilet. I'll be right the outside
the bar, going I get two tickets please like that.
So it's funny, but my tour manager knows how to
do it right. You'll be like coming out and you've
(21:22):
got to do some phone interviews. Can I have a drink?
Why don't you have a drink? When we get to Selvages,
I'm like, okay, Like he's not he's good, he's good.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Is she drinking then, Like when she's in that tape
when she's talking is disappeared where she's like I'm an
active alcoholic.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, I mean I don't know if she's drinking inaclip
right right, No, I just mean like in that moment
of time that she's doing and she's presenting it sort
of in the old way she used to present herself,
if that makes sense, as like, look, I'm open, I'm joking,
I'm laughing about it, but the tone around it now.
But while she's doing that, in looks at her differently.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, if you.
Speaker 10 (22:00):
Don't know that much about Amy, she's the one with hair,
kind of like Russell Brand's only bigger. Got some flax
for losing too much weight. But it's her nights out
that have got the tabloid's interested.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
I mean, you know, sometimes I do get out into
but I'm a normal twenty three year old girl.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Do you ever worry? Do you think you drink too much?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Not really?
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Not really, not really.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I actually remember being in conversations with people where it's like,
who is who is letting her do this? Like who's
letting her go on the radio and talk like that?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Is somebody enabling that?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Right?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well, this was husband Blake's explanations. She's been looks after us.
We're going back to this retreat.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
The main thing is a.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well we're getting better.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It's somebody enabling this. It's someone are these people around her? Actually?
Like you know, she herself is a business like most
pop stars and most performers like all of these people,
of these hangers on are making money out of this person.
Performing Amy's own father Mitch Cold Radio five Live This
Morning to say he did not believe any fan boy
(22:59):
caught our time in rehab whould help his daughter.
Speaker 11 (23:02):
It's all clutching at straws. The only white out of
this is not sectioning them, not locking them up. At
some point they are going to reach rock bottom, and
at that point they will say listen, I don't want
to do this anymore. When the decision is right, they'll
make it or they won't make it.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
It's kind of like the Michael Jackson thing late in
his career, when like, this is.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Somebody who needs help, right, how.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Is he still out here in these streets and not
off getting help?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
And because he makes a lot of people a lot
of money.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Listening to it now and going through VS songs, it
was kind of hard to square and like, as a kid,
I was just singing the song was just kind of like,
oh wow, yeah, it's so edgy, it's so different, and
it is those things, and you're also like, oh, this
is a person really going through it.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Oh wow, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, I forget that we're we have this age difference,
cause I remember those songs as like.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Appropriately adult. I would have the opposite reaction.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
I would forget that she's you just said she was
twenty two, you know, like.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
To me, that's a thirty something year old woman and
you know, who has lived a life. And it felt
to me.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Like, oh, yeah, wow, she's really she's telling us about
stuff that's relatable, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Right, did you view it as like, oh, here's this
person who in her thirties who's gone through this bad
period and like it is singing about it like it.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Was somebody who's going through it. I remember that was
part of it of the Amy Winehouse. What part is
that you just felt like, here's this person who is
in the middle of it and is just letting you
see it all.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I feel like it's very normal for a lot of
artists as they progressed to make stuff that's like a
mix of personal and also like stuff that's like a
little bit like a step away from it. Right, But
this is not that this is anything she's lean in.
She's putting it absolutely all out there, and like we said,
she is going through it like that marriage she finds
herself in is not a good one. She'd later say
(25:04):
that it was a marriage totally built around and based
off of doing drugs together.
Speaker 11 (25:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
But also these incidents in Amy's life that are happening
that the press are taking full advantage of. There's an
incident that is heavily, heavily covered in the tabloids where
Amy is pictured on the street covered in bruises, looking
like she's been in like a fight.
Speaker 9 (25:24):
They're disturbing to look at the latest photos of Amy
Winehouse splashed across the papers. Her pink ballet shoes are
covered in blood, her face is bruised and battered, with
muscas smeared around her eyes. Her husband, Blake's covered in cuts.
Speaker 10 (25:39):
They were photographed early yesterday morning when she was spotted
outside screaming and running away from him.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
She then has to go on the record and describe
what happened, which is basically she was in the midst
of like a breakdown. All of her messages become very public.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
So at this point, for Back to Black, when she
wrote that, and when that came out, like we're not
talking about like, oh, she's doing too many drugs.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
This is a full on drug connection.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, this is like a full on like, oh, whoa,
this person is a drug addict. So she starts missing
all kinds of gigs. I'm talking like big, big opening
concert gigs for bands like The Rolling Stones. It evolves
past that where it's not even just that she doesn't
show up. She eventually is not allowed to show up
at one of the biggest events of her life.
Speaker 9 (26:27):
Amy Winehouse put all her recent troubles behind her sweeping
the board at last night's Grammy Awards.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
She has an historically amazing night at the Grammys, like
five Grammys, one of those where every award you know
what the present's gonna say.
Speaker 12 (26:42):
When this time she's making headlines for all the right reasons.
Amy Winehouse won five of the six Grammy Awards she
was nominated for at a glittering ceremony in Los Angeles,
even though she wasn't there, and.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
She's not able to be there because her drug use
at this point is so publicly out there and allegedly
so bad that the United States doesn't let her travel
to the ceremony.
Speaker 12 (27:09):
Some of the biggest names in the music industry are here,
but notable by her absence is the one that many
people are talking about.
Speaker 8 (27:16):
Anyone else but I know, I was like, you want
to get in so much trouble when they wanted.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
To travel, So I can kind of feel her pain
right now. Won't let her in in. This is pre
Donald Trump. We didn't do that kind of thing back then.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
It's a massive deal.
Speaker 12 (27:32):
And after visa problems scuppered her planned trip to the Grannies,
this was how she performed at the show via satellite
from London.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I also, I have to say, I do think you
might be undertelling how big a deal this album was culturally,
you know, like they were not just talking about like, oh,
it was the hit album of the year, you know,
I mean huge swaths of people were like, I've never
heard anything like this.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
This is the best thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I feel like even then people knew it was like
one of the album of our times, you know what
I mean, Like it was like and I think people,
it's actually in the music industry knew the story that
Amy was participating in. They're like, right, we have seen
brilliant people like yourself crash out and.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Burn aha the twenty seven Club.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Totally, And so a big narrative arises in this time
that is basically listen, Amy is the real deal and
if she can just get it together, like who knows,
And there's all this discourse about just like this is
a person who clearly needs help. Yes, they made this
master work, but let's focus on their help and scauld
(28:44):
she'd be getting any intention on all this, all this
kind of stuff. Don't buy her music, don't give her
any more awards. Amy Winehouse is in laws say that's
the only way to help the singer and her husband Blake.
History is littered with dead young rock stars.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
They both have their whole lives ahead of them.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
This is by this time, this is two thousand and eight.
There are other stars kind of going through her own
scandals and republic of raisers, like Britney Spears. And I
found this clip actually on the BBC's archive. It's this
live radio show and they're talking kind of basically about
celebrities as role models, whether they even should be, and
like they're comparing people like Britney Spears and Amy Weinhaus
(29:25):
and how they might be and relate for like young
girls growing up and all of this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Because this has now become a thing in the culture.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
You're saying, yeah, it's now become like a thing in
the culture of like, wait, we have these styles who
are falling apart, and there's this kind of extraordinary moment
that I want to play for you, wherein basically there's
this live drivetime radio show where they're discussing this very
issue and like a very particular person in Amy's life
calls into the show.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
Except what you're saying and first of all, thank you
for taking the time to call us if we can
explore some of the issues you've.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Raised, And that person is Amy's aunt.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
I did not ask to be a teenager icon. This
has never been in a thought. I am just have
to write and sing. There are thousands of families going
through the same tragic situation as us all over England.
They're allowed to get on with it quietly and hopefully
pull their children through this and this is all we
ask for Amy. Amy has the press knocking on the
(30:25):
door two o'clock in the morning, three o'clock in the morning,
and some of the photos of Amy and are worse
is when she's gone down the stairs because she's had
no sleep, and she's just gone down there to say,
leave me alone, shut up, I want to go to sleep,
and she's got herself into this mess. We know, we
are trying our utmost. She's being very good at the moment,
(30:47):
so you know, hopefully things will come through, but we're
just asked me give her a break.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
So her aunt was listening to the radio and yeah,
leave her alone totally.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
She's just like, stop using my niece in your examples
about like, you know, these stars setting a bad example
for our youth basically.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
And like the detail that she's just was trying to
sleep and y'all took a pick because you woke her
up and now you've got her looking all wild when
she's just saying.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Leami alone totally. It's like there's this there's this holy
even valve thing happening now in certain parts of the
media and the press where they're just like, this person
is such a shambles. Is that okay, this can't be okay? Right?
This isn't good with no accountability.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Isn't there a phrase for that that that the millennials
have of like the toxic caretaking?
Speaker 2 (31:39):
What do you call it?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I don't know, but don't the cake taking sounds about right?
You know what I mean? Which is that? And you know,
around this time, reportedly she stops being as much of
a drug user, but instead her addiction for drugs just
seems to transform more and more to alcohol, Like alcohol
(32:01):
becomes the big thing that people are talking about a lot.
It's like, oh, she's going from drug addict to drug alcohol.
But there's there's other sort of thing I want to
focus on in this time period. Actually, that really brought
me around back around to the question of authenticity, right,
which is at this time there are also these questions
(32:23):
being asked of her that I imagine we're probably even
more devastating to Amy, which is that as she's being
so authentic in this trap, there are really loud critics
asking about her authenticity, particularly as it relates to race.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Wait, what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (32:43):
So around this time, like there's this controversy where Amy
is like shown recorded singing heads, shoulders, knees, and toes
like the song, like the tune of it, but she's
replacing the lyrics with a bunch of slurs towards black
people or other people that have not going to repeat
(33:04):
on the air. I don't remember that, right, And it
creates sort of like this five storm and in the
middle where you're just like, right, here's this woman who
up until now has very comfortably kind of done this
thing that a lot of white artists find hard, which
is she is beloved. She's she's doing a sort of
music in sort of like this old tiny bluesy R
(33:28):
and B soul kind of thing that you know, in
a lot of ways, sounds like it's straight out of Motown,
and black people love it. No one's like, I'm not
gonna say no one, but like, for the most part,
there's not like a controversy about a white person culturally
appropriating stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Like because it's so obviously works.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yes, it's obviously good, you know what I mean. Everyone,
Like I feel like, at least in my own life,
like that was not really a big thing. But I
do remember this controversy. And around this time there's a
slew of articles and I'm gonna name drop one. There's
one written by women. Daphne Brooks writes his article in
the Nation basically accusing Amy Winehouse of black appropriation. She's
(34:13):
just basically like, listen, you are pulling from our legends
as your inspiration. Fine, but like in doing it your
way this way, you're doing it wrong. And I'm just
gonna read you a little bit of this Winehouse's infamous image,
as anyone who has looked on the Internet lately knows,
(34:34):
is less about dignity and more about a march towards
acid visious style self immolation and no future punk degeneration,
dream girl chick with a dash of funny girl babs
thrown in for good measure. What makes this act slightly
less than amusing is the fact that Winehouse has built
her stardom on recycling the looks and sounds, the word
(34:55):
that's handclaps an upright base of freedom Ride era pop
music to sell her tale of rapidly unfolding decline.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
It feels unfair.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
It is unfair. I find it unfair reading it. But
if this critic is saying, listen, the aesthetic that you're
pulling from comes from this era in the sixties, when
black people were all about social uplift and hope amongst
like all of this upheaval in the Civil rights era,
and these motown stars were deliberately crafted to look a
(35:26):
certain way, which is, they were supposed to sing these
songs that were about something, but also we were supposed
to present in a certain way into a very particular
brand of respectability. Politics, and this person is saying, not
only are you stealing some of the aesthetic of that,
but you're also doing me in verse of a respectability
politics thing and co opting it.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I feel like it misses the point, you know, like
she was a drug addict. She wasn't performing at being
a drug addict. She was.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
She she was.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Like, Oh, I'm going to put on this punk thing.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I couldn't completely miss this at the time, but reading
articles on it, it's so ubiqritous where people are starting
to turn in this.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Way because she's become unlikable in her messiness totally. Now
suddenly she can be criticized for her music.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And it's weird. It's upsetting to me because I'm like,
there are valid critiques of that kind of thing, you
know what I mean, right, And so she's kind of
hounded for the next couple of years over those issues
in her personal life, in like with her addiction to alcohol.
Also these questions about having a vulture culture, like they're
all sort of swirling and incessant right up until she
(36:39):
passes away in twenty eleven at just twenty seven years
of age from alcohol poisoning.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
So sad and also just the shocking detail of somebody
dying from alcohol poisoning, which of course is a thing
that happens, but he just you don't talk about, you.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Know, heroin overdoses, sweat things. But it just feels so brutal. Yeah,
that feels like such a brutal way to die of addiction.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Definitely. Definitely. And the thing that I've been thinking a
lot about when it comes to authenticity question is like,
when I read that article criticizing her for basically being
a culture vulture in that kind of way, I felt
this anger actually I'm feeling about I was surprised by it,
(37:26):
but I felt it really And here's where it ended
me up at is I'm just like, right, the reason
I'm mad is, like you said, because I'm like, this
is not a performance. This is a person who is struggling,
who was a drug addict. And then I go back
to my earlier question of like, well did she need
that to be considered authentic and to be the musical genius?
(37:51):
Like did she need to be as open about like
these different issues she was having in her life to
be like the Amy winehouse that we knew, you know
what I mean? Well, yes, And the answer is yes,
And I don't know what to do with that.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Yeah, I mean, she says it, She tells us absolutely yes,
that she is writing her experience and that's the only
thing she knew how to do.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And her experience is ugly.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
It is ugly. And when I think about what she's
actually doing, right, if you place it in a musical
lineage in which she's in back to black, when I
think about that, is a blues album. Yeah, and a
key homework of the blues that we all know is
about singing about the things that you are going through.
And we bought it, and we buy it because it's real.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Because it's real. That's so it.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
You know, Like if like that critique that arises after
she becomes an addict would ring true if again, if
that was her performance, if it felt like totally you know,
but the fact that she genuinely is a disaster and
is and I keep using that language and I want
(39:05):
to move away from that, because she's genuinely in pain
and singing and writing songs about I am in pain totally,
and like she's using a particular kind of black music
to do that, but she's doing it well, you know.
That's the other thing is if it had been crappy music,
you know.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
One of the things that is so I don't know,
just wild to me thinking about it, is like she
made just these two albums when she was alive.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
It's crazy, that's it.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Can we never like, you know, you look at people
like Beyonce for example, right and Lemonade, like, you know,
the singer songwriter who sings about things in their own
life is not a new thing, right. Everybody from Jenny
Mitchell to Beyonce to so many people have done it.
But the difference in that is like like eventually all
(39:53):
of those people reach a point where there's this like
they either stop singing so much about their own lives,
right or in a case of Beyonce, you end up
in this place where it's like, yes, this happened, we
all know it happened, but she never actually says that.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Right Eliminade.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Then it's like it's totally yea, we know this is
about jay Z cheating and launch kicken him in the
neck and eala.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
But and no way, it's not supposed to.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Be about And a lot of a lot of Beyonce's
approach to that like comes about presumably because she's seen
stuff like this, you know what I mean. And she
also came up in this period of just like women's
choices and everything about them just being like absolutely consumed
and torn apart for profit in this.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Well and black women.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I mean actually, honestly, to have a little bit of
sympathy for the critiques of Amy is like a black
Amy white House could not have been black.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yes, and done all that, yeah, and still been rich
and famous one hundred percent, one hundred percent Corey Amy. Yeah.
It is sad, and I don't know what to do.
It feels weird and messed up to just have that
reaction to somebody, you know what I mean, Amy.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
But it's what makes her story so hard, honestly, because
that is it, right, Like it just ends in tragedy
and that's it. There's not really a coda or somebody
who created just such incredible and singular art. This is
the first time I've talked about Amy white.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
House in a long time.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, yeah, same here. Well, thank you for talking with
me about it.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Thank you. Well. Next week, I'm gonna bring you a
very different kind of performer and a very different kind.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Of musical artist, And I want to play a few
clips here, see if you can figure out who this
is going to be. This is one of those people
who I feel like listeners are either gonna immediately know
the voice, are never ever have any idea who it is.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Okay, Amy white House, he ain't. Okay, all right, here's
the first one.
Speaker 8 (42:04):
I gotta make music for the kids, man, because that's
who wants to hear my music, and that's who buys
my music, and that's who is looking to me too
for music to make music.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Wow, Okay, we're in a different decade.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
We are at a different time, in a different era
and a different vibe.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Here's the next one.
Speaker 8 (42:21):
You know, I'm a very light hearted, humorous Eddie Murphy
type of guy as far as like what I'm into.
You know, I don't see no reason to rap about
blood and violence. It's unnecessary to me, you know, I
mentioned it a little bit. You know, I have my opinions,
but I mean, for the most part, I feel like
music is a time where people want to relieve precious.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Are you recognizing this way?
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Shit, I'm well kind of And I was almost waiting
for the next line out of his mouth to be like,
I'm a love another fighter, baby, that would be right,
That would be right.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
You're you're on the right track. You're definitely on the
right track. All right, here's the last one.
Speaker 8 (42:57):
I wouldn't have stood on stage and got criticized for
I need love if I was a sexist peg ladies.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
You know what I'm saying, So we can just cut
the crap.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (43:06):
That's definitely not no. I respect when and a lot.
You know what I'm saying. I love women.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Okay, this man loves women. He loved the ladies.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
I'll just give you. He's probably licking his lips as
he talks.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Okay, Yeah, I cannot wait for this. I cannot wait.
I know exactly who you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I'm excited, all right.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Big Lives is a production of BBC Studios and Pushkin Industries.
Is hosted by me Manuel Jochi and Kai Wright. Our
team over at BBC Studios includes producer Emma Reverel, archive
producer Samir Chowdery, sound designed by Melvin rickerby. Our Executive
producer is Annie Brown, Our production coordinator is Gaylan Davis Connolly,
(43:49):
and our production manager is Mabel Finnegan Wright. The team
over at Pushkin Industries includes executive producer Constanza Goryardo producer
Daphne Chen. Our legal advisor is Jake Flanagan, and our
marketing team includes Morgan Ratner and Jordan McMullan.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Get add free episodes of Big Lives by subscribing to
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Deep Cover and Revision, This History, and more. Sign up
on the Big Live Show page on Apple Podcasts or
at pushkin dot fm, slash plus.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Thanks for your support.
Pushkin.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
Before we get going here, some real talk.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
The BBC has been sitting on decades of tape, and
Emanuel and I are just two guys trying to make
sure the good stuff doesn't get buried.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
The way you can help us do that.
Speaker 3 (00:30):
Leave a review doesn't have to be a long one,
just a few lines about how the show is changing
your thinking.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
And think about who in your.
Speaker 3 (00:37):
Life has a strong opinion about David Attenborough or Muhammad
Ali or Meg Ryan or anyone else.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
We've covered for them this episode.
Speaker 3 (00:46):
Because you know, I'm saying whatever they think they know,
they probably don't know the whole story.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
It's kind of the point. Okay, let's get started.
Speaker 1 (00:56):
From BBC Studios, I'm Chushkin Industries, this is Big Lives.
I'm a Manuel Jochi, I'm Kai. Right on this show,
we take a single cultural icon and we break down
their life and their legacy using the BBC's vast archive.
And today we are talking about but one and the only,
(01:20):
Amy Winehouse.
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Okay, I'm excited about that. I haven't thought about Amy
Whinehouse a long time.
Speaker 1 (01:25):
Okay, watch the single sort of stock image caricature that
you have when you think of Amy Whinehouse.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
I think it's two things.
Speaker 3 (01:33):
I think it's like this sultry, soulful person and this
still sound weird, the image of like chipped fingernail.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
Pay, chipped fingernail pain.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
That is somebody who could give somebody who does not
care that they're walking around with chip fingernail pay.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
This is on the side. I love it when you
try not to cuss. But yes, you're right, she is
someone who did not give a fuck at least that
was basically her general demeanor, in addition to being this
amazing British singer songwriter who was a musical phenomenon. Absolutely
and just to say, you know, she was famous for
singing these bluesy jazzy songs in this very old timy
(02:18):
kind of way. But yes, she really struggled with drugs
and alcohol. She really sadly passed away at twenty seven.
And now I feel like it's the world she is
most talked about in now is like as a member
of like the twenty seven Club, this group bringing artists
(02:40):
who all passed away around their.
Speaker 2 (02:41):
Age, Kurt Cobain and the like, right.
Speaker 1 (02:44):
Like a kind of cautionary tale about fame and success
and artistry that we all kind of know, right, But
it was interesting going through the BBC archive looking at
her because she's someone whose whole career really is present there.
She's been giving interviews to the BBC since she was
like nineteen years old.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (03:05):
Wow, Yeah, that's she's the perfect example for this show.
Speaker 1 (03:09):
And I don't know, when I was going through stuff,
there was this thing that really stuck out to me.
She did this interview with a radio presenter. His name
is Craig Charles, and you know, in it, they're talking
about how so much of her music actually it seems
like was really legitimately about her own life, Like some
of her biggest hits were about a lot of the
(03:30):
struggles she was hamming with drugs and with alcohol. And
in this interview, visit presenter Greg Charles asked her about that.
You know, he's just asking like, how does that relationship
work between your real life and this stuff that you're
writing for us.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
You know, you've been.
Speaker 4 (03:44):
Quote saying if I haven't done it, I just can't
put it into a song.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
It has to be able to biographical.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Yes, right, So let's go back rehab.
Speaker 5 (03:55):
I mean in also, if I mean my managers, did
I had a particularly bad episode and I had to
go and stay with my dad for a bit, and
my managers came to my dad's house and said said that,
you know, we want to take you to this place.
I said, what happens if I don't want to go?
You know, because you know, I toweach their own. But
for me, if I can't sort myself out, then I don't,
you know. I mean, I don't know if it's been
(04:16):
a woman being a Jewish woman or just being made
like being really hard headed.
Speaker 1 (04:21):
You know.
Speaker 5 (04:21):
I think if I can't sort myself out, then I'm
gonna sort me out.
Speaker 3 (04:25):
Just to hear her voice. I mean, you know, it's
been a long time since I heard her voice.
Speaker 1 (04:28):
Yeah, And I mean the thing that I remember, very
viterally as a child listened to her music was like,
I felt like we fell in love with her, because oh,
this woman is really real. She's in that clip talking
about one of the most famous songs, Rehab, and I
remember listening to that song and I'm like, wow, I'm
watching a woman fall apart. And it was that kind
of uneasy kind of relationship. And I think when I
(04:51):
went through all of these different clips and things that
I'm about to play you. This is a question that
is so specific to Amy that I've been having that
I want to talk to you about, which is, did
she really have to be that authentic?
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Like?
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Did she have to be like that public in her
falling apart in order to connect with her fans to
be the musical genius that ultimately she was?
Speaker 2 (05:12):
Right?
Speaker 6 (05:12):
Like?
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Does genius require putting yourself in danger?
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Exactly? And that's what I want to talk about today
when we come back from.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
The break I'm in.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Welcome back to Big Lives, I mean, Manuel Jochi, and
we're talking about Amy Winehouse. Do you think you're going
to be a big star.
Speaker 5 (05:35):
I don't think I'm ever going to be real in
the mainstream, you know. I don't think how many people
are ever going to really listen to me.
Speaker 2 (05:41):
You know, I don't know about that.
Speaker 4 (05:42):
You know, I like it, honestly, we will think you're
gonna go stratospheric.
Speaker 1 (05:47):
So Kai Amy was born in London in the early
eighties to this family that was just really into jazz music,
white Jewish upbringing, but like you know, her dad was
an aspiring musician who never quite got his career off
the ground. Her Grandma loved old jazz standards.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Like Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holliday, that kind of thing.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
HM totally. Now, her family was a little chaotic, which
we will get too later, but music was the thing
that they connected on. So even though she is someone
who looks like really she should be a part of
a golf kind of like punk band. I don't know
if you remember what Amy looked like, you know, very dark,
heavy laid on eyeliner, big beehive hair, like this woman
(06:34):
who should have been in Metallica or whatever, basically ends
up sounding like a reincarnation of your Elephis Gerald's, like
of your old timey black jazz musicians, which ends up,
as you said earlier, just being so distinctive. And I
just want to point to this one BBC interview that
happens really early on in her career, when she was nineteen.
Speaker 7 (06:56):
When I heard Amy Winehou's voice. Now this is going
to be quite a few weeks about somebody said check
this out, and I thought, why has this woman been
hiding all of these years? And then I discovered and
that she is only ninety, But that voice could have
been lifted from about fifty years ago. It's been everywhere,
and Amy is from Camden, London town synonymous with Indie
(07:17):
and I don't.
Speaker 1 (07:17):
Know, it's just really incredible to hear her as a teenager,
like literally clearing her throat something on the radio.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
I'll just play that, which I could say it burts
my home like you did in the beginning.
Speaker 1 (07:41):
It's not bad Grew.
Speaker 2 (07:46):
Her voice is so intoxicating.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
Yeah, it's singular like, it's raw, it's soulful, and.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
It was shocking to hear her when she started right like.
I can remember first when I first heard her and
being like, who is that?
Speaker 2 (08:04):
What is that voice? You know, you hadn't heard anything
like it in a really really long time.
Speaker 1 (08:08):
It really came out when I was listening to these interviews,
because the reaction is just tons of people being like, wait,
why do you sound like this? How do you sound
like this?
Speaker 3 (08:18):
I mean not that you shouldn't sound like this, right Like,
I don't remember that big in the early reaction being like, oh,
you're a white lady trying to sound black like that
never came up.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
It was just like, this is what you sound like
and it's great. Am I right?
Speaker 1 (08:29):
Well, so this is the thing. I didn't remember that either,
but then you listen to the tape and the race
stuff is in there. It is in there from the beginning.
I'm just going to play you this interview she did
in two thousand and three as an interview she did
with presenter Janis Long when she was just nineteen.
Speaker 7 (08:44):
That voice, where did your voice come from? Did you ope?
Speaker 1 (08:47):
Me mouth? And that was it? That's the way you
say it now.
Speaker 5 (08:49):
I used to sing more musical theater kind of lies,
a kind of the show were going out, you know
that kind of stuff like astle moment or that kind
of Yeah, like that's kind of overdone.
Speaker 1 (09:01):
Though.
Speaker 7 (09:02):
Do people think you're black until they see other Some
people who say that because you can.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Some people, yeah, some people.
Speaker 7 (09:08):
Not everyone.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
I mean there's a couple of people that said, oh
you're not black.
Speaker 6 (09:13):
Oh you're young.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
You can I say you sound black? I thought you
was black? Really, I thought you was black?
Speaker 1 (09:19):
Man.
Speaker 2 (09:21):
You just just you're Jewish?
Speaker 4 (09:24):
How do you get I mean, do all Jewish girls
thing like that?
Speaker 1 (09:27):
I hope not.
Speaker 3 (09:30):
I would never have been like, oh, she's a black person,
But when you hear it now, it's like, oh.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
How is she so young? Sounding like right, that's right?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
The age thing.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
How did it all start for you?
Speaker 5 (09:42):
I guess when I left stage school.
Speaker 8 (09:43):
That's when I because what stage school did you go to?
Speaker 5 (09:45):
I went to Sylvia Young.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
She actually went to a theater school for a little
bit and got well, depending who you listened to, got
kicked out or voluntarily left, and you'd expelled.
Speaker 5 (09:58):
In not so many ways. Yeah, why it was nothing
on looking at my friends, it was nothing.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Small behavior proper.
Speaker 4 (10:10):
You're badly behaved, girlic I probably was when I was fifteen.
Speaker 5 (10:13):
You know.
Speaker 1 (10:14):
But what is clear is that the songwriting that we're
going to talk about a lot today, that started really early.
Like she started writing songs age thirteen. I'm going to
play another glip of her just talking about that, like
again one of her earliest interviews.
Speaker 5 (10:31):
I think when I was growing up, the music that
was in the pop charts or the you know, the
music that was that people were releasing at the time,
I just thought, this isn't music. This is waltered down
or this is you know, just crap. Someone else has
written it for you and you have to sing it.
It's very much the case of some music today. So
I really started writing music just as to challenge myself.
You know, to see what I could write, or you know,
(10:53):
just because there was nothing else there that I could
listen to at the time. I felt like I had
nothing new that was coming out at the time that
really represented me or the way I felt. So, you know,
I just started writing really my own stuff and from
personal experience.
Speaker 2 (11:08):
Very cool.
Speaker 1 (11:09):
Yeah, So basically, how old is she in this that clip?
She's she's nineteen. Still, she's still that young.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
And it's like, I don't see what I need, so
I'm going to write it.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
I don't see what I need. I'm putting it out
into the world. And just to bring you into that era,
you're in the early two thousands. This is like peak
pop and peak assembly line pop groups that we're doing
really well. So like your Encincs, your Backstreet Boys, even
your Britney Spears, these different people who you know, they're
all creating a certain type of music that is kind
(11:42):
of derivative from a lot of R and B music
and black R and B music in the late nineties.
And right from the beginning, Amy's reacting to that era
of manufacturing pop scars. She's sort of figuring out, you know,
what her sound is going to be like. But she
knows basically she doesn't want to be like them. And
then this thing happens in her late teens, right shortly
(12:05):
before these interviews that she's given, which is, she meets
a guy and this guy will change her life in
a very specific way, which is that he breaks her
heart and stumps all over it. Yeah, and he does
this so badly that Amy's like, you know what, I'm
going to write the songs about this. And basically off
(12:27):
of the back of the power of these songs, Amy
gets kind of like her first big record deal, and
in two thousand and three, at just like twenty, she
comes out with her debut album and she calls it
Frank like both a nod to one of her heroes,
Frank Sinatra, but also a literal nod to the fact
(12:48):
that much of what she's writing about in his album
are actual thobs about this man who broke her heart.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
You picked the wrong one, sir. Whoever this man was,
he fucked with the wrong lady. And she was like,
I'm gonna tell the world about.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
You one percent stronger than me?
Speaker 2 (13:05):
Who is that about?
Speaker 1 (13:06):
Because that's a right kick in the testicles for a bloke, that.
Speaker 2 (13:08):
Is is it?
Speaker 9 (13:10):
You?
Speaker 1 (13:10):
Should be I'm lady and you're my lady boy.
Speaker 2 (13:13):
I mean, come.
Speaker 4 (13:14):
On, he sounds X very X.
Speaker 1 (13:21):
I've even thought about that, Like, you know, you have
those people who are like, oh right, my dream is
to be in the liner notes of somebody's album, and
I'm like, no, you don't. You don't want that. You
do not want that. But anyways, this album, Frank is amazing.
But and just looking through some of the tracks, you know,
there's a song that's like very clearly about her dad
and how he's a bit of a philanderer, and it's
(13:44):
called what Is It About Men? But yeah, most of
it is about how much of a loser her boyfriend was,
And so yeah, you just have like this woman who
is real? Who is Frank? Who is laying it all
out there. But one of the interesting things about that
album is that Amy actually didn't like it that much,
(14:08):
the album, the album itself. She gave his interview where
she says, you know, some things on this album make
me go to a little place that's fucking bitter. I've
never heard the album from start to finish. I don't
have it in my house. But marketing was fucked. The
promotion was terrible. Everything was a shambles. Wow, So she
makes this album, but I actually it does really well.
It announces her as a person in the UK at least.
(14:31):
But she's mad and I was trying to figure out, well,
what's she mad about, because it seems like a lot
of these songs are great songs and she's written them.
But it seems like she was mad because her producers
and songwriters actually added a couple of songs to that album. Right.
She's like, they basically punched it up her album to
(14:51):
make it a little bit more generic and a little
bit more palable and accessible, is how she saw it,
and she doesn't like that. She doesn't want to be
packaged as anything other than herself, and she's just like,
you guys don't understand what I'm doing. You don't know
what you're doing. But anyways, the album itself, despite her criticism,
is a massive success, and people are drawn to her
(15:14):
because of the authenticity that they hear on that album. Right,
and by people I'm talking about, yes, the general public
in the UK and in Europe like myself, but also
the press and specifically for British tabloids. I think it's
very clear. Looking at headlines from this period. They see, oh,
this is a celebrity, a burgeoning celebrity who is super open,
(15:36):
very accessible, and is a little bit different, Like she
presents differently right the outfit she wears. She's a very
very comfortable sort of person that is very photographable, very quotable,
and will sell papers.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
I mean, when I go on stage, I like to
stress as slutty as possible because it makes me dance
bit for some reason. But I do it because I'm
an assertive young woman and I'm not trying to sell
recordspace on the way I look. And that's why I
do it. Apart from the fact that I like dressing,
I guess that, but do you know what I mean
stuff like that. I like to make a point like that.
Like there was a bit in the paper Amy Wine
has her outfits she had like a Doug's dinner. She's
(16:14):
great to listen to, but when you look at you
just feel sick.
Speaker 1 (16:16):
She just dresses so badly.
Speaker 2 (16:18):
She's so trashy.
Speaker 5 (16:18):
I was like, oh my god, I'm famous.
Speaker 1 (16:22):
And so from the beginning there's this sort of interrogation
of her and focus on her and the British tabloids.
They're talking a lot about like how she looks and
her weight, like speculation early on, oh does she have
too much of it? Just like that kind of weird
early two thousands weight loss culture rubbish, you know thing.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
Because she's a woman. She's a woman, let's talk about
her body.
Speaker 1 (16:45):
Totally and definitely a sexual woman. You know, she's singing
about her love life for some of her sexual escapades
in that first album, and that continues for a couple
of years after she puts out her first album. She's
not putting out music, but she's in the public eye
a sort of this object of fascination, and that conversation
about how she looks, her health and this sort of
fixation with her is in the conversation right around the
(17:08):
time that she's getting ready two release has second album.
And I actually found an interview from that time, just
a few months before that second album was released, and
she's asked about this by presenter Craig Charles. I'll just
play back cup for you.
Speaker 4 (17:22):
You know, when you get when you get to that
certain stage, that certain level of fame, there's going to
be people digging at you all the time. I was
watching a Telly last night and there was a program.
Do you see that thing on last night about celebrity
weight loss and things like that? And they were like it,
and they had all sorts of experts talking about you
and and other celebrities. But I'm talking to it tomorrow,
(17:43):
So I was obviously more interested in you and talking
about how you know your weight loss and I mean
really personal things. I mean, how does how do things
like that affect you?
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Just look over your head.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Or oh yeah it kind of guys I've made.
Speaker 5 (17:55):
I mean, like it's not like my friends sitting around
going why she said thing, Well, you know it's it's
it's speculation, is that. You know, like I said, people
have got something. It keeps people busy, you know, like
everyone's got to do something with their time.
Speaker 1 (18:08):
Do you know what I mean.
Speaker 5 (18:09):
I'm lucky that I can sing songs that make me happy,
that I wrote about stuff that, you know. I'm lucky
that I get to give myself therapy every day by
singing songs about a really tough time in my life.
Not everyone can do that. Everyone's go and talk about
other people. You know, I'm very lucky, very very lucky.
Other people aren't so lucky. I don't care if they
want to talk about me. They can do whatever they
want as song as I can go home and go
(18:29):
oh I had a good days but whatever.
Speaker 3 (18:31):
Yeah, that sounds like a dangerous past.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
She's talking about walking there. I mean, you know.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
What's interdingwing me about that clip is how she points
to just the idea of this is therapy for me
in a real, genuine, artistic way. I'm sort of finding
a way to turn the ship of my life and
process it through making this work.
Speaker 3 (18:52):
I mean this it gets back to your opening point
here of like she doesn't have a choice but to
be authentic.
Speaker 1 (18:59):
She says that she's saying, she's saying that she's like, listen,
and she's so graceful about it, right, She's like I
can't Yeah, and it feels genuine to believe her. But yes,
you were right to hear warning bells kind of coming,
because I feel like from this point on, Amy's on
a train and she's not gonna be able to get
off of that train even when it starts to harm.
(19:21):
And I'll tell you more about that after the break. Okay,
welcome back to Big Lives. Today, we're talking about Amy
Winehouse and where we are now. Kai, Okay, we're in
(19:42):
the year two thousand and six. Amy Winehouse is twenty
two going on twenty three, and she is at the
height of her stardom. She's just put out her second album,
Back to Black.
Speaker 2 (19:56):
This is the beggar that we are now.
Speaker 1 (19:57):
Yeah, Like this is her master work. You know, this
is where that song Rehab is on. You've got songs
like Tears Dry on their own, Like, there's so many
amazing songs on this album them and just like Frank,
which came before, this album in a lot of ways,
is mostly autobiographical, and you know, if the first album
(20:18):
was about like a lot of heartbreak and men and
sort of being like this young twenty something woman running
around London, these songs are also about heartbreak, but they
also about a lot of other things. Right, She's written
this album at a time when she's found out that
her most recent boyfriend, this guy that she would eventually marry,
(20:38):
had cheated on her. So she's writing about that, but
she's also writing about a crazy depression that she's been
in as a result of that, and she's struggling with drugs.
Hence the song Rehab. Yeah, the famous refrain like said
I had to go to rehab, and I said no, no, no,
no no.
Speaker 10 (20:57):
Does your manager tell you often say right, that's it,
You're not going to drink anymore.
Speaker 2 (21:00):
When you're going on telling.
Speaker 5 (21:01):
My manager, it just rolls his eyes and he trusts
my tour manager and my tour manage. Just let my
dad and brother and husband roll into one my boyfriends,
my actual boyfriend. You're not drinking, Diomi, And I'll be like, okay,
I'm going to the toilet. I'll be right the outside
the bar, going I get two tickets please like that.
So it's funny, but my tour manager knows how to
do it right. You'll be like coming out and you've
(21:22):
got to do some phone interviews. Can I have a drink?
Why don't you have a drink? When we get to Selvages,
I'm like, okay, Like he's not he's good, he's good.
Speaker 3 (21:31):
Is she drinking then, Like when she's in that tape
when she's talking is disappeared where she's like I'm an
active alcoholic.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
Yeah, I mean I don't know if she's drinking inaclip
right right, No, I just mean like in that moment
of time that she's doing and she's presenting it sort
of in the old way she used to present herself,
if that makes sense, as like, look, I'm open, I'm joking,
I'm laughing about it, but the tone around it now.
But while she's doing that, in looks at her differently.
Speaker 2 (21:59):
Yeah, if you.
Speaker 10 (22:00):
Don't know that much about Amy, she's the one with hair,
kind of like Russell Brand's only bigger. Got some flax
for losing too much weight. But it's her nights out
that have got the tabloid's interested.
Speaker 5 (22:10):
I mean, you know, sometimes I do get out into
but I'm a normal twenty three year old girl.
Speaker 1 (22:14):
Do you ever worry? Do you think you drink too much?
Speaker 2 (22:16):
Not really?
Speaker 5 (22:17):
Not really, not really.
Speaker 1 (22:19):
I actually remember being in conversations with people where it's like,
who is who is letting her do this? Like who's
letting her go on the radio and talk like that?
Speaker 2 (22:28):
Is somebody enabling that?
Speaker 1 (22:30):
Right?
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Well, this was husband Blake's explanations. She's been looks after us.
We're going back to this retreat.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
The main thing is a.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Well we're getting better.
Speaker 1 (22:38):
It's somebody enabling this. It's someone are these people around her? Actually?
Like you know, she herself is a business like most
pop stars and most performers like all of these people,
of these hangers on are making money out of this person.
Performing Amy's own father Mitch Cold Radio five Live This
Morning to say he did not believe any fan boy
(22:59):
caught our time in rehab whould help his daughter.
Speaker 11 (23:02):
It's all clutching at straws. The only white out of
this is not sectioning them, not locking them up. At
some point they are going to reach rock bottom, and
at that point they will say listen, I don't want
to do this anymore. When the decision is right, they'll
make it or they won't make it.
Speaker 3 (23:19):
It's kind of like the Michael Jackson thing late in
his career, when like, this is.
Speaker 2 (23:23):
Somebody who needs help, right, how.
Speaker 3 (23:27):
Is he still out here in these streets and not
off getting help?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
And because he makes a lot of people a lot
of money.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Listening to it now and going through VS songs, it
was kind of hard to square and like, as a kid,
I was just singing the song was just kind of like,
oh wow, yeah, it's so edgy, it's so different, and
it is those things, and you're also like, oh, this
is a person really going through it.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Oh wow, it's interesting.
Speaker 3 (23:52):
Yeah, I forget that we're we have this age difference,
cause I remember those songs as like.
Speaker 2 (23:59):
Appropriately adult. I would have the opposite reaction.
Speaker 3 (24:02):
I would forget that she's you just said she was
twenty two, you know, like.
Speaker 2 (24:07):
To me, that's a thirty something year old woman and
you know, who has lived a life. And it felt
to me.
Speaker 3 (24:13):
Like, oh, yeah, wow, she's really she's telling us about
stuff that's relatable, you know.
Speaker 1 (24:19):
Right, did you view it as like, oh, here's this
person who in her thirties who's gone through this bad
period and like it is singing about it like it.
Speaker 3 (24:28):
Was somebody who's going through it. I remember that was
part of it of the Amy Winehouse. What part is
that you just felt like, here's this person who is
in the middle of it and is just letting you
see it all.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
You know.
Speaker 1 (24:42):
I feel like it's very normal for a lot of
artists as they progressed to make stuff that's like a
mix of personal and also like stuff that's like a
little bit like a step away from it. Right, But
this is not that this is anything she's lean in.
She's putting it absolutely all out there, and like we said,
she is going through it like that marriage she finds
herself in is not a good one. She'd later say
(25:04):
that it was a marriage totally built around and based
off of doing drugs together.
Speaker 11 (25:08):
Right.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
But also these incidents in Amy's life that are happening
that the press are taking full advantage of. There's an
incident that is heavily, heavily covered in the tabloids where
Amy is pictured on the street covered in bruises, looking
like she's been in like a fight.
Speaker 9 (25:24):
They're disturbing to look at the latest photos of Amy
Winehouse splashed across the papers. Her pink ballet shoes are
covered in blood, her face is bruised and battered, with
muscas smeared around her eyes. Her husband, Blake's covered in cuts.
Speaker 10 (25:39):
They were photographed early yesterday morning when she was spotted
outside screaming and running away from him.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
She then has to go on the record and describe
what happened, which is basically she was in the midst
of like a breakdown. All of her messages become very public.
Speaker 3 (25:57):
So at this point, for Back to Black, when she
wrote that, and when that came out, like we're not
talking about like, oh, she's doing too many drugs.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
This is a full on drug connection.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Yeah, this is like a full on like, oh, whoa,
this person is a drug addict. So she starts missing
all kinds of gigs. I'm talking like big, big opening
concert gigs for bands like The Rolling Stones. It evolves
past that where it's not even just that she doesn't
show up. She eventually is not allowed to show up
at one of the biggest events of her life.
Speaker 9 (26:27):
Amy Winehouse put all her recent troubles behind her sweeping
the board at last night's Grammy Awards.
Speaker 1 (26:33):
She has an historically amazing night at the Grammys, like
five Grammys, one of those where every award you know
what the present's gonna say.
Speaker 12 (26:42):
When this time she's making headlines for all the right reasons.
Amy Winehouse won five of the six Grammy Awards she
was nominated for at a glittering ceremony in Los Angeles,
even though she wasn't there, and.
Speaker 1 (26:55):
She's not able to be there because her drug use
at this point is so publicly out there and allegedly
so bad that the United States doesn't let her travel
to the ceremony.
Speaker 12 (27:09):
Some of the biggest names in the music industry are here,
but notable by her absence is the one that many
people are talking about.
Speaker 8 (27:16):
Anyone else but I know, I was like, you want
to get in so much trouble when they wanted.
Speaker 2 (27:21):
To travel, So I can kind of feel her pain
right now. Won't let her in in. This is pre
Donald Trump. We didn't do that kind of thing back then.
Speaker 1 (27:31):
It's a massive deal.
Speaker 12 (27:32):
And after visa problems scuppered her planned trip to the Grannies,
this was how she performed at the show via satellite
from London.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
I also, I have to say, I do think you
might be undertelling how big a deal this album was culturally,
you know, like they were not just talking about like, oh,
it was the hit album of the year, you know,
I mean huge swaths of people were like, I've never
heard anything like this.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
This is the best thing I've ever heard.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
I feel like even then people knew it was like
one of the album of our times, you know what
I mean, Like it was like and I think people,
it's actually in the music industry knew the story that
Amy was participating in. They're like, right, we have seen
brilliant people like yourself crash out and.
Speaker 2 (28:20):
Burn aha the twenty seven Club.
Speaker 1 (28:22):
Totally, And so a big narrative arises in this time
that is basically listen, Amy is the real deal and
if she can just get it together, like who knows,
And there's all this discourse about just like this is
a person who clearly needs help. Yes, they made this
master work, but let's focus on their help and scauld
(28:44):
she'd be getting any intention on all this, all this
kind of stuff. Don't buy her music, don't give her
any more awards. Amy Winehouse is in laws say that's
the only way to help the singer and her husband Blake.
History is littered with dead young rock stars.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
They both have their whole lives ahead of them.
Speaker 1 (29:01):
This is by this time, this is two thousand and eight.
There are other stars kind of going through her own
scandals and republic of raisers, like Britney Spears. And I
found this clip actually on the BBC's archive. It's this
live radio show and they're talking kind of basically about
celebrities as role models, whether they even should be, and
like they're comparing people like Britney Spears and Amy Weinhaus
(29:25):
and how they might be and relate for like young
girls growing up and all of this kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Because this has now become a thing in the culture.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
You're saying, yeah, it's now become like a thing in
the culture of like, wait, we have these styles who
are falling apart, and there's this kind of extraordinary moment
that I want to play for you, wherein basically there's
this live drivetime radio show where they're discussing this very
issue and like a very particular person in Amy's life
calls into the show.
Speaker 4 (29:54):
Except what you're saying and first of all, thank you
for taking the time to call us if we can
explore some of the issues you've.
Speaker 1 (29:58):
Raised, And that person is Amy's aunt.
Speaker 6 (30:02):
I did not ask to be a teenager icon. This
has never been in a thought. I am just have
to write and sing. There are thousands of families going
through the same tragic situation as us all over England.
They're allowed to get on with it quietly and hopefully
pull their children through this and this is all we
ask for Amy. Amy has the press knocking on the
(30:25):
door two o'clock in the morning, three o'clock in the morning,
and some of the photos of Amy and are worse
is when she's gone down the stairs because she's had
no sleep, and she's just gone down there to say,
leave me alone, shut up, I want to go to sleep,
and she's got herself into this mess. We know, we
are trying our utmost. She's being very good at the moment,
(30:47):
so you know, hopefully things will come through, but we're
just asked me give her a break.
Speaker 2 (30:52):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (30:54):
So her aunt was listening to the radio and yeah,
leave her alone totally.
Speaker 1 (30:58):
She's just like, stop using my niece in your examples
about like, you know, these stars setting a bad example
for our youth basically.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
And like the detail that she's just was trying to
sleep and y'all took a pick because you woke her
up and now you've got her looking all wild when
she's just saying.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
Leami alone totally. It's like there's this there's this holy
even valve thing happening now in certain parts of the
media and the press where they're just like, this person
is such a shambles. Is that okay, this can't be okay? Right?
This isn't good with no accountability.
Speaker 3 (31:34):
Isn't there a phrase for that that that the millennials
have of like the toxic caretaking?
Speaker 2 (31:39):
What do you call it?
Speaker 1 (31:40):
I don't know, but don't the cake taking sounds about right?
You know what I mean? Which is that? And you know,
around this time, reportedly she stops being as much of
a drug user, but instead her addiction for drugs just
seems to transform more and more to alcohol, Like alcohol
(32:01):
becomes the big thing that people are talking about a lot.
It's like, oh, she's going from drug addict to drug alcohol.
But there's there's other sort of thing I want to
focus on in this time period. Actually, that really brought
me around back around to the question of authenticity, right,
which is at this time there are also these questions
(32:23):
being asked of her that I imagine we're probably even
more devastating to Amy, which is that as she's being
so authentic in this trap, there are really loud critics
asking about her authenticity, particularly as it relates to race.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Wait, what do you mean?
Speaker 1 (32:43):
So around this time, like there's this controversy where Amy
is like shown recorded singing heads, shoulders, knees, and toes
like the song, like the tune of it, but she's
replacing the lyrics with a bunch of slurs towards black
people or other people that have not going to repeat
(33:04):
on the air. I don't remember that, right, And it
creates sort of like this five storm and in the
middle where you're just like, right, here's this woman who
up until now has very comfortably kind of done this
thing that a lot of white artists find hard, which
is she is beloved. She's she's doing a sort of
music in sort of like this old tiny bluesy R
(33:28):
and B soul kind of thing that you know, in
a lot of ways, sounds like it's straight out of Motown,
and black people love it. No one's like, I'm not
gonna say no one, but like, for the most part,
there's not like a controversy about a white person culturally
appropriating stuff.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Like because it's so obviously works.
Speaker 1 (33:48):
Yes, it's obviously good, you know what I mean. Everyone,
Like I feel like, at least in my own life,
like that was not really a big thing. But I
do remember this controversy. And around this time there's a
slew of articles and I'm gonna name drop one. There's
one written by women. Daphne Brooks writes his article in
the Nation basically accusing Amy Winehouse of black appropriation. She's
(34:13):
just basically like, listen, you are pulling from our legends
as your inspiration. Fine, but like in doing it your
way this way, you're doing it wrong. And I'm just
gonna read you a little bit of this Winehouse's infamous image,
as anyone who has looked on the Internet lately knows,
(34:34):
is less about dignity and more about a march towards
acid visious style self immolation and no future punk degeneration,
dream girl chick with a dash of funny girl babs
thrown in for good measure. What makes this act slightly
less than amusing is the fact that Winehouse has built
her stardom on recycling the looks and sounds, the word
(34:55):
that's handclaps an upright base of freedom Ride era pop
music to sell her tale of rapidly unfolding decline.
Speaker 2 (35:04):
It feels unfair.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
It is unfair. I find it unfair reading it. But
if this critic is saying, listen, the aesthetic that you're
pulling from comes from this era in the sixties, when
black people were all about social uplift and hope amongst
like all of this upheaval in the Civil rights era,
and these motown stars were deliberately crafted to look a
(35:26):
certain way, which is, they were supposed to sing these
songs that were about something, but also we were supposed
to present in a certain way into a very particular
brand of respectability. Politics, and this person is saying, not
only are you stealing some of the aesthetic of that,
but you're also doing me in verse of a respectability
politics thing and co opting it.
Speaker 2 (35:46):
I feel like it misses the point, you know, like
she was a drug addict. She wasn't performing at being
a drug addict. She was.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
She she was.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Like, Oh, I'm going to put on this punk thing.
Speaker 1 (36:00):
I couldn't completely miss this at the time, but reading
articles on it, it's so ubiqritous where people are starting
to turn in this.
Speaker 3 (36:07):
Way because she's become unlikable in her messiness totally. Now
suddenly she can be criticized for her music.
Speaker 1 (36:17):
And it's weird. It's upsetting to me because I'm like,
there are valid critiques of that kind of thing, you
know what I mean, right, And so she's kind of
hounded for the next couple of years over those issues
in her personal life, in like with her addiction to alcohol.
Also these questions about having a vulture culture, like they're
all sort of swirling and incessant right up until she
(36:39):
passes away in twenty eleven at just twenty seven years
of age from alcohol poisoning.
Speaker 3 (36:46):
So sad and also just the shocking detail of somebody
dying from alcohol poisoning, which of course is a thing
that happens, but he just you don't talk about, you.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Know, heroin overdoses, sweat things. But it just feels so brutal. Yeah,
that feels like such a brutal way to die of addiction.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Definitely. Definitely. And the thing that I've been thinking a
lot about when it comes to authenticity question is like,
when I read that article criticizing her for basically being
a culture vulture in that kind of way, I felt
this anger actually I'm feeling about I was surprised by it,
(37:26):
but I felt it really And here's where it ended
me up at is I'm just like, right, the reason
I'm mad is, like you said, because I'm like, this
is not a performance. This is a person who is struggling,
who was a drug addict. And then I go back
to my earlier question of like, well did she need
that to be considered authentic and to be the musical genius?
(37:51):
Like did she need to be as open about like
these different issues she was having in her life to
be like the Amy winehouse that we knew, you know
what I mean? Well, yes, And the answer is yes,
And I don't know what to do with that.
Speaker 3 (38:05):
Yeah, I mean, she says it, She tells us absolutely yes,
that she is writing her experience and that's the only
thing she knew how to do.
Speaker 2 (38:15):
And her experience is ugly.
Speaker 1 (38:19):
It is ugly. And when I think about what she's
actually doing, right, if you place it in a musical
lineage in which she's in back to black, when I
think about that, is a blues album. Yeah, and a
key homework of the blues that we all know is
about singing about the things that you are going through.
And we bought it, and we buy it because it's real.
Speaker 2 (38:41):
Because it's real. That's so it.
Speaker 3 (38:43):
You know, Like if like that critique that arises after
she becomes an addict would ring true if again, if
that was her performance, if it felt like totally you know,
but the fact that she genuinely is a disaster and
is and I keep using that language and I want
(39:05):
to move away from that, because she's genuinely in pain
and singing and writing songs about I am in pain totally,
and like she's using a particular kind of black music
to do that, but she's doing it well, you know.
That's the other thing is if it had been crappy music,
you know.
Speaker 1 (39:24):
One of the things that is so I don't know,
just wild to me thinking about it, is like she
made just these two albums when she was alive.
Speaker 2 (39:31):
It's crazy, that's it.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
Can we never like, you know, you look at people
like Beyonce for example, right and Lemonade, like, you know,
the singer songwriter who sings about things in their own
life is not a new thing, right. Everybody from Jenny
Mitchell to Beyonce to so many people have done it.
But the difference in that is like like eventually all
(39:53):
of those people reach a point where there's this like
they either stop singing so much about their own lives,
right or in a case of Beyonce, you end up
in this place where it's like, yes, this happened, we
all know it happened, but she never actually says that.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
Right Eliminade.
Speaker 3 (40:08):
Then it's like it's totally yea, we know this is
about jay Z cheating and launch kicken him in the
neck and eala.
Speaker 2 (40:17):
But and no way, it's not supposed to.
Speaker 1 (40:19):
Be about And a lot of a lot of Beyonce's
approach to that like comes about presumably because she's seen
stuff like this, you know what I mean. And she
also came up in this period of just like women's
choices and everything about them just being like absolutely consumed
and torn apart for profit in this.
Speaker 2 (40:39):
Well and black women.
Speaker 3 (40:40):
I mean actually, honestly, to have a little bit of
sympathy for the critiques of Amy is like a black
Amy white House could not have been black.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yes, and done all that, yeah, and still been rich
and famous one hundred percent, one hundred percent Corey Amy. Yeah.
It is sad, and I don't know what to do.
It feels weird and messed up to just have that
reaction to somebody, you know what I mean, Amy.
Speaker 3 (41:07):
But it's what makes her story so hard, honestly, because
that is it, right, Like it just ends in tragedy
and that's it. There's not really a coda or somebody
who created just such incredible and singular art. This is
the first time I've talked about Amy white.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
House in a long time.
Speaker 1 (41:30):
Yeah, yeah, same here. Well, thank you for talking with
me about it.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
Thank you. Well. Next week, I'm gonna bring you a
very different kind of performer and a very different kind.
Speaker 3 (41:44):
Of musical artist, And I want to play a few
clips here, see if you can figure out who this
is going to be. This is one of those people
who I feel like listeners are either gonna immediately know
the voice, are never ever have any idea who it is.
Speaker 2 (41:58):
Okay, Amy white House, he ain't. Okay, all right, here's
the first one.
Speaker 8 (42:04):
I gotta make music for the kids, man, because that's
who wants to hear my music, and that's who buys
my music, and that's who is looking to me too
for music to make music.
Speaker 1 (42:13):
Wow, Okay, we're in a different decade.
Speaker 3 (42:16):
We are at a different time, in a different era
and a different vibe.
Speaker 2 (42:20):
Here's the next one.
Speaker 8 (42:21):
You know, I'm a very light hearted, humorous Eddie Murphy
type of guy as far as like what I'm into.
You know, I don't see no reason to rap about
blood and violence. It's unnecessary to me, you know, I
mentioned it a little bit. You know, I have my opinions,
but I mean, for the most part, I feel like
music is a time where people want to relieve precious.
Speaker 2 (42:40):
Are you recognizing this way?
Speaker 1 (42:42):
Shit, I'm well kind of And I was almost waiting
for the next line out of his mouth to be like,
I'm a love another fighter, baby, that would be right,
That would be right.
Speaker 2 (42:52):
You're you're on the right track. You're definitely on the
right track. All right, here's the last one.
Speaker 8 (42:57):
I wouldn't have stood on stage and got criticized for
I need love if I was a sexist peg ladies.
Speaker 2 (43:02):
You know what I'm saying, So we can just cut
the crap.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
You know what I mean?
Speaker 2 (43:06):
That's definitely not no. I respect when and a lot.
You know what I'm saying. I love women.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Okay, this man loves women. He loved the ladies.
Speaker 2 (43:15):
I'll just give you. He's probably licking his lips as
he talks.
Speaker 1 (43:20):
Okay, Yeah, I cannot wait for this. I cannot wait.
I know exactly who you're talking about.
Speaker 2 (43:25):
I'm excited, all right.
Speaker 1 (43:28):
Big Lives is a production of BBC Studios and Pushkin Industries.
Is hosted by me Manuel Jochi and Kai Wright. Our
team over at BBC Studios includes producer Emma Reverel, archive
producer Samir Chowdery, sound designed by Melvin rickerby. Our Executive
producer is Annie Brown, Our production coordinator is Gaylan Davis Connolly,
(43:49):
and our production manager is Mabel Finnegan Wright. The team
over at Pushkin Industries includes executive producer Constanza Goryardo producer
Daphne Chen. Our legal advisor is Jake Flanagan, and our
marketing team includes Morgan Ratner and Jordan McMullan.
Speaker 3 (44:13):
Get add free episodes of Big Lives by subscribing to
Pushkin Plus. Subscribers also get ad free episodes of all
Pushkin shows, full audio books, series binges to shows like
Deep Cover and Revision, This History, and more. Sign up
on the Big Live Show page on Apple Podcasts or
at pushkin dot fm, slash plus.
Speaker 2 (44:34):
Thanks for your support.
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