February 3, 2025 • 23 mins
Welcome to BIZ - the podcast that's rewriting the rules of work for a new generation.
Join Em Vernem (ambitious but efficient), Michelle Battersby (launched Bumble APAC) and Soph Hirst (ex-Google) as they tackle everything from dealing with difficult bosses to knowing if your side hustle can become your career.
In this first episode:
Asking for a pay rise is about as comfortable as explaining to your boss why you've been late three times this week. But what if there was a way to do it that actually works?
Biz career coaches Michelle Battersby and Soph Hirst to share their proven framework for getting what you want at work (spoiler: don't mention your expensive oat latte habit).
Plus, they bust the myths about asking every year, using other job offers as leverage, and what to do if you get a 'no'.
Consider this your cheat sheet to having the money conversation - minus the awkward sweating.
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Hosts: Michelle Battersby, Soph Hirst and Em Vernem
Executive Producer: Georgie Page
Audio Producer: Leah Porges
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:21):
You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land. We have recorded this
podcast on the Gatagoul people of the Eora Nation. We
pay our respects to their elders past and present, and
extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander cultures.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello, it's m venom here dropping into your feed to
introduce you to a brand new podcast from Mamma Mia.
Biz is a podcast rewriting the rules of work for
a new generation, and each week I'll be joined by
our career coaches and business experts Michelle, Battisby and Sophurst
as they tackle everything from dealing with difficult bosses to
(01:02):
knowing if your side hustle can actually become your career.
In the very first episode, we learn the art of
asking for a pay rise successfully. Check it out. Welcome
to BIZ, the podcast that's rewriting the rules of work
for a new generation. Vernon and Look. I would describe
(01:23):
my work ethic as someone who's a career driven girl boss,
but I'd also like the clock off at four pm.
Career success is important to me, but I just want
someone to kind of tell me what the shortcuts are.
The good news is my two co hosts give excellent
career advice and they know a lot about business. Michelle
Battersby launched Bumble into this region and now she runs
(01:46):
her own startup called Sunroom. It helps people monetize their content.
And when I enter the workforce in twenty eighteen, look
Michelle was the person I wanted to be. She's literally
thezillennial woman's career idol. My other co host, Sophhurst, is
an ex Google marketing manager and she's the founder of
work Baby. It's a career coaching program for people in
(02:06):
their early career era like myself. Mission sof have been bosses, managers, employees,
and employers, and the way this show is going to
work is that they're going to share all of their
knowledge with tired career girlies like myself. Start being how
to ask for more money?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
How much money can I realistically ask for? I don't
know what's reasonable and what's considered a promotion? Now, my dear,
where to start?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I swear all my male friends have no problem asking,
but I just feel so embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I just don't know what to say.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I think I once went in and said could I
maybe look at I don't know, like maybe a pay
rise in six months, and my boss said yeah, sure,
and then never spoke of it again.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
It's so icky talking about money.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I remember going into a pay rise meeting.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I had all my ducks in a row.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I knew everything I was going to say, and the
moment I got in there and stirred down the barrel
at my boss, I got so nervous and completely froze
and we didn't even get to that part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Talking about pay rises is about as comfortable as when
you have to call in sick when everyone saw you
taking three tequila shots. I'd worked drinks to the night before.
But luckily our beer's career coaches, Michelle and Sof are
going to share exactly what the expert secrets are on
how to nail that conversation. So let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
So salary is kind of a weird thing to talk
about work. Actually think it's very awkward to talk about
money with your coworkers, and there's a lot of bad
advice doing the rounds on social media about how to
actually ask. So we're gonna bust some paarise myths and
I answer your big questions about asking your big boss
for more cash. Michelle, you worked in HR, so I
(03:46):
imagine you've been behind the scenes at quite a few
pairrise conversations.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Yeah, I feel like I've seen the good, the bad,
and the ugly. I once saw someone get a six
figure pay rise off the back of going and getting
a job offer from another company, so we can talk
about if that's do or I don't.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
And I've also seen people get a.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Bit emotional, get a little aggressive, maybe bring a pay
rise up as a condition or an ultimatum, which is
not the best way to go about it, as it
can move away from the facts and be counterproductive the argument.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I think it can get very personal. Something I actually
love doing with my clients is you do this sort
of mental flip so instead of they're sitting there thinking
why do I want a pair rise? Why should I
get a pay rise? Try to imagine yourself as your
boss and think why should I give Michelle a pay rise?
Why would I want to give Michelle a pay rise?
So you want to frame it all as the kind
of value and the benefit to the company. If you're
(04:42):
thinking about why a company would want to give you
a pay rise. It's really about a lot of the
time retaining good talent. It's really expensive to hire new talent,
and they really do want to retain good talent. So
this EPP is.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
All about helping you prove that you're good talent.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Okay, So let's bust some of those myths.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
I went out on my socials and I asked people,
what do you want to know about pay rises? And
I got a ton of questions back, So let's get
into it. Probably one of the most common was when
should I ask? And should I be asking every year?
So I'm very keen for your take on this. Do
you think it's okay to ask for a pay rise
(05:36):
every year?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah? If you are on TikTok, everyone says yes, you
should be asking every year. So, first of all, I
think there's a lot of variation in terms of how
companies approach pay rises. So first find out what the
deal is at your company. At smaller companies, they probably
don't have much process and your manager is probably the
person that's going to approve it. At bigger companies, there's
probably a very formal process. You know, Google it was
(05:58):
very formal and transparent, and the person you are actually
asking your manager is probably several levels away from the
person who's actually approving it. So first, I think, just
understand how the process works at your company. I think
it really helps have mates in HR or in the
finance team to know when budgeting happens and things like that.
But back to the question, so should you ask every year?
(06:19):
I actually really know to this, and I'll tell you why.
I think the ideal situation that you want to get
in is that you've actually created a reason that your
compensation should change. So that's like a change in your scope.
You've got more experience and you're better at your job now,
so you're actually delivering more value to the company, and
you want to prove that. I think just having this
artificial timeline in your head off like every twelve months, I'm
(06:40):
gonna ask, isn't really the right approach. And I think
it's more about what's changed and what can you kind
of package up and proof has changed and therefore you
deserve a pay rise.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
I love that because I obviously do spend too much
time on TikTok because my default was yes, I do
think people should be asking for a pay rise every
twelve months. But my perspective is rooted in those people
actually having performed, Like I'm assuming that all those people
are top performers and they are contributing to the organization.
(07:09):
They have evolved, they have developed. So if you're sitting
there wondering if I should be asking for a pay
rise every twelve months, I feel like the answer is yes.
If you are getting shit done and you're moving the
needle in your role, what are your ink.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
About cost of living and inflation and if employers should
be giving pay rise as based on sort of that changing.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
So I actually think inflation is worth being aware of,
Like that actually is a reason maybe why you could
rationalize asking for a pay rise every year, But you
absolutely should not be bringing up inflation as the reason
why you deserve one, Like just because inflation has occurred
does not entitle you to a pay rise. And I
(07:47):
think if you went into a conversation and that was
your leading argument from an employer perspective, it comes across
as a bit of a weak argument, like give me
your actual tangible results, don't just default to inflation. But
we also need pay rises to ensure we're able to live,
to survive, to pay our rent, to buy our groceries.
So I do think it's a reason why, like, seeking
(08:09):
a pay rise every twelve months is like reasonable from
a human perspective, but you still need to be backing
it up with how you improve the company performance. Otherwise
you're just not going to get the pay rise from
your employer in the first place.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I did some research into whether employers actually plan to
give pay rises, so there was a say you wire
link in the show notes, but it's sat In Australia,
ninety six percent of employers plan to give pay rises
in twenty twenty four. A third of that was actually
flat for all staff, fourteen percent was to match inflation,
and twenty eight percent was actually based on performance. So
even if your company is planning to give pay rises,
(08:45):
it's still going to be mostly based on performance, so
you need to sort of prove you're delivering.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yeah, and if inflation was like two percent or three percent,
for example, you would want more than a two or.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Three percent pay rise.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
So that's another reason why you wouldn't really want inflation
to be the basis of your argument. But it's more
just a personal reason I think. I think if you're
unsure if you're even paid a fair rate. A really
good place to start is to go to a website
like Hayes or Hudson and look at market data that
will give you an indication of what people in similar
(09:18):
roles to you in your city are being paid. And
I think that's a very good start if you're just
going in completely blind. Back to my point earlier around
if getting offers from other companies is a good way
to get a pay rise or not, I actually do
think interviewing at other jobs is also a very good
(09:38):
way to get a read on what you might be
paid out there in the market. But I do think
if you are then going to use an offer to
try and get a pay rise in a job you're
already in, you definitely need to be willing.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
To walk away.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So if you're interviewing somewhere else, you have to be
down to take that role, because you might not always
bring that offer to your employer and they might not
match it. They might say no, worries see you later.
So you have to be strategic and like intentional about
how you go about that. If that's a process you're
going to follow, what do.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
You think, Yeah, no, I agree, I think it can
be really effective I think it's massive risk. So the
point that you mentioned before, you have to be willing
to walk away. Another big question is how much dold
I actually ask for? What's actually going to an impact
on your life? So like anything less than five percent
after tax is second out and month and month, you
may not really notice that. And then if you're getting
sort of up to the you know, twenty percent, that's
(10:30):
really a promotion that you're asking for, and that's a
big jump. So I think it's somewhere in the range
at five to fifteen is probably what people are thinking
about in terms of pay rise, but it's going to
be based on so many different factors.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Amazing. Okay, another question was I feel too uncomfortable asking
is it really worth it?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
What do you think? This is my approach to life.
I think in general, tough conversations are worth it at
work and in life. So you know, a good way
to think about is that good leaders ask for what
they want and need at work all the time. So
in a way, you doing this is actually a demonstration
of your leadership and you shouldn't feel scared about it.
(11:08):
That said, it does take work and preparation, and if
you go into it without prepping, there is a risk
that you show up as not being able to read
the room, that you don't really have your shit together,
and I think that is a risk to it. And
also it's just like a ton of efforts. So I
think you really want to ask yourself how much women
asking for? Is there really a case for this, like
have I actually delut bit, you know, met expectations, exceeded expectations,
(11:32):
has my role changed? And then I think that that
line around there's no harm in asking, just ask. I
do think there is a harmon asking if you don't
do the prep and you don't really have a case,
and you haven't read the room. Chase that into account
and then if all those things are a yes, then
go into it with like this is you showing leadership
and is actually going to be an excellent learning experience
for you. Do not be scared, and I think probably
(11:54):
especially women, more of us should be up scared.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
I think that's such a good answer, no notes from me,
And I think it really moves into the next question
very well, which is should I ask if my company
isn't performing about reading the room? I think you can
ask for a pay rise if your company isn't performing,
but you need to be damn sure that you're still
(12:18):
contributing to the company's objectives. And I think when you
approach the conversation, it would be you know, I know
as a business we haven't reached X, Y, and Z,
but I've got some ideas about how we can do
that in the next quarter. And here's how I'm going
to move that for you. You're showing empathy and compassion,
you're aware that the company isn't quite there, and you're
(12:40):
showing up like but I'm focused on that, and here's
how I'm going to improve that for all of us.
Because I think to your point, if you don't read
the room in that kind of environment, if you don't
do that, well, I don't want to scare people, but
it actually could make you a bit of a target.
So it's good for everyone to be aware how you
contribute to the business consistently.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I also think it's a long game as well that
sometimes you have to play. So maybe you're going to
ask and then they're going to say no, and then
six months later you sort of want to say to them, well,
if it's a no, now, what would it look like?
What to take for it to be a yes and
sort of start planning message. But yeah, working on it
with your manager together. There's sort of no hum in asking,
knowing that it might you know, but it might be
yes later. Cool.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
So that's your big questions answered. Now you're probably thinking,
so how the hell do I actually ask?
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That's on the way.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Next the culture.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Couture, So how do you actually ask for a pay rise?
Remember your mindset, get inside your boss's head. Frame it
in terms of the value you're actually bringing for the company.
Don't make it about you and your personal financial situation
for example, don't mention the saving for a house deposit
(13:56):
or you know, mentioned cost of living. We're going to
make it all about the company and the value you're delivering.
Don't be scared. You have the right to ask, and
it is showing good leadership. Okay, Michelle, you are an
HR expert. Tell us how people can think about framing
their value.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
This is a very simple framework, or you can think
about it just like three prompts, and this is what
you're going to sit down at your desk and think
about before you go into these conversations. And the prompts
are experience, role, and output. So when you think about
your experience. You're obviously thinking about how many years you've
been doing the job. What unique insights do you also
(14:33):
bring based on that experience. But I think when it
comes to advocating for a pay rise, when you've been
at the company for a few years, for example, it's
how has your experience grown? Have you done courses leadership,
have you been on training camps, have you gone to
conferences around the world, whatever it is, You're really thinking
about how you've grown your skill set and your knowledge.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
I love that. So it's not just experience in terms
of I've been here two years, it's actually how have
you invested in improving your experience and the experience that
you have in doing that role. It's like expertise exactly.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
And I know we'll get to this, but that's also
something that you can also be asking for in these
performance conversations, like I want to do a training course
on X, I want to do this online course. Really
simple things people can do that I just think make
them sound and seem a bit smarter. Is got a
bit bored over the break? Did these three online Harvard courses?
You know, they're just really easy little wins that just
(15:30):
make you seem like you care.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
The second thing is role.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
So how has your role evolved? Did someone go and
leave and you took on their responsibilities? Are you managing
more people? Are you actually doing three jobs? Is your
job moving well beyond what the original job description was.
Those are things that you can use to advocate for
a pay rise. The biggest and most important one, though,
(15:56):
is obviously your output. And this really needs to be
evidence and fact based, so numbers relating to your KPIs,
but always bringing it back to the company's objectives as well,
and as we've discussed, really leading with what the business
is trying to achieve and then how you, as an
(16:17):
individual have helped them get there. You have an epic
hack for this because you can also find yourself approaching
these conversations, especially if they only happen once a year
in your business and you've now forgotten half the things
that you've done throughout the year.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I always hated this so much. It's like summarize twelve
months of your work into six bullet points, and I
you know, you never know what you're gonna do. So
the best hack that I found to doing this is
actually just too every time that you have an example
of good work, and that might be results metrics, it
might be something a client has said about you, it
(16:53):
might be something a cowork has said about you, and
slack anything that is, like you do a good work.
You're going to screenshot that and just throw it in
a folder on your desktop. I try and save like
a couple of week, And what you're gonna find is
when you go through that, you're just gonna jog your
memory and gonna have all these great examples. So that's
the fastest hack I found. The other thing people really
struggle with is how do you actually articulate your value
(17:16):
and kind of summarize it into a nice, neat little
bullet point that sounds profession not in human whatever. I
think that's a really good question that you had from
someone right around this.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yes, another question that people kept coming through with was
how to articulate your value if you've contributed via a
lot of soft skills. So this could be things like
critical thinking, communication, influence, leadership. And I think this is
important because how you get shit done matters, Like I
like to think about it, like soft skills achieve hard outcomes,
(17:48):
you know, So don't think just because you bring softer
skills to the table that you still can't articulate that
into a tangible bullet point, so so please tell us
how to do that.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
We actually just took the words out of my mouth. Yeah,
that's the thing, Like, it's the soft skills that mean
the company can actually do stuff that leads to the hardship.
So yeah, I wanted to give people away that they
can actually think about articulating their soft skills. First of all,
this is what a lot of people miss. You want
to give context to the points that you're actually sharing.
So it's not just about data points and stats, it's
(18:23):
actually give context. Why was it great or why was
it hard? So some examples would be, you know, was
it the first time that you did something like this,
Were there lots of different teams that had to come
together for the first time, was there a really tight
turnaround time on this, or you're dealing with tons of
different roadblocks and delays. So you want to shiny and
building context, and then the main thing is to link
that skill to the actual impact and the results. So
(18:45):
there's a really great sentence you can use, and we're
going to put this in the newsletter. You want to say,
I demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that, and
then you put the impact. So I'm going to give you,
guys an example. Demonstrated leadership by bringing together stakeholders from
four different teams who have never worked together before to
collaborate on a project for the first time, which meant that.
(19:08):
So I think you can actually use context and then
link it to something that actually has impact and a
result attached to it.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
I love that so much. Honestly, I feel like these
will be so helpful for people. I'm sitting here thinking
I wish I could have so in an earpiece as
I do these conversations, but we're actually doing Noah, this
is it.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
I think we've made it super clear.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
So when you're going into these conversations, focus on the company.
I know as a company we've been working towards X,
Y and Z. Here's how I've contributed to that in
my role. And then use your structure. So what were
your three keywords? Can you repeat them for me?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that result?
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Skill what which meant that result?
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Love it?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Okay, So what happens if they say, no, slash, we
don't have the budget right now?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, which probably will happen, right. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
I think in this situation it's like I wouldn't take
no as meaning no full stop.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
It just means not right now.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
This is an opportunity to continue the conversation and as
you said, play the long game. And I also think
you can ask for different things in the meantime that
aren't just monetary right totally.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So one of my favorite things to do is actually,
if you get a no, then think about asking for
non financial pay rise. So that might be something like
there's this specific course that I really want to do.
It might be I really want this opportunity to work
on a specific project, or like a really cool mentoring opportunity.
You might want to travel a little bit more. So
maybe it's like, you know, can't take it to Melbourne,
(20:42):
whatever it is you want to be asking and think
about non financial incentives as well. The interesting thing about
asking for non financial incentives or like a non financial
pay rise. If you think about like say you get
a pay rise and it's two thousand dollars and then
tax comes out of it, it's actually not that much
in the end. But there's this quote from Warren Buffett,
who's one of the most famous investors in the world,
(21:04):
and he actually says, by far, the best investment you
can make is in yourself. And so you might actually
be better taking that two grand and investing that in
your own skills and your own self instead of just
thinking about getting the cash. Okay.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
So we're all about concrete action points here, it biz,
So so what are they?
Speaker 5 (21:23):
So?
Speaker 3 (21:23):
One, do your research. Understand how your company runs the
promotion and pay rise system and know the market rates
for your role and your industry. Two is start planning early.
So talk about what is expected of you and your
role with your manager. Make sure you understand the big
company priorities, style your winds folder, and you know, consider
(21:44):
giving your manager heads up like this is something that
I actually want to work towards. And then three, make
it about them, not you. So this is about the
value that you delivered. Grab Michelle's experience role output framework
in the newsletter and that will have you totally sort it.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Okay, So listening to Michelle and so you guys, I've
been doing this all wrong. I didn't realize that I
shouldn't just walk into my boss's office and beg for money,
just like Oliver Twist style. If you don't implement a strategy,
not only is your manager going to say no to you,
but you'd probably also give them the IG, which I
know we all know is way worse. So here's what
(22:28):
I'm actually going to do, and you should too if
you want more money. But you hate those awkward conversations.
So first, I'm going to start keeping a track of
all of the good stuff I do at work. Because
I didn't realize my boss wasn't psychic and didn't know
I've been staying back late nearly every day this past week.
I mean, it's kind of rude, but it's understandable. Then
I'm going to go straight to Hayes dot com dot
(22:49):
au to figure out what I should actually be earning.
And finally, I'm going to practice saying I deserve more
money in the mirror, and I'm going to try to
do it without cringing, because apparently asking for what you
want is leadership. It's not being annoying, which is so
great to know. Thank you so much for listening to
our first episode of BIZ and look, we want to
(23:10):
tell you that we are here to help. Well, Michelle
and Sofa here to help do not worry. I will
not try to help you myself. Think of them as
your new work mentors. They're ready to answer your actual
work question, So make sure you sign up to our
newsletter to get all the support you need. Plus our
Biz Inbox episodes drop later in the week where we
answer all of your questions and the biggest work issues
(23:32):
that are trending on TikTok. See you next time. We
hope you enjoyed that very first episode of BIZ. If
you want to learn more about how to make the
most out of your working life, make sure you're following
BIZ in your favorite podcast app. There will be a
link in our show notes and join us on Thursdays
(23:54):
as we dive into the Biz Inbox. It's a weekly
second drop from BIZ where we answer all of your
work related questions
You're listening to a Mother Mia podcast. Mamma Mia acknowledges
the traditional owners of the land. We have recorded this
podcast on the Gatagoul people of the Eora Nation. We
pay our respects to their elders past and present, and
extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait islander cultures.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
Hello, it's m venom here dropping into your feed to
introduce you to a brand new podcast from Mamma Mia.
Biz is a podcast rewriting the rules of work for
a new generation, and each week I'll be joined by
our career coaches and business experts Michelle, Battisby and Sophurst
as they tackle everything from dealing with difficult bosses to
(01:02):
knowing if your side hustle can actually become your career.
In the very first episode, we learn the art of
asking for a pay rise successfully. Check it out. Welcome
to BIZ, the podcast that's rewriting the rules of work
for a new generation. Vernon and Look. I would describe
(01:23):
my work ethic as someone who's a career driven girl boss,
but I'd also like the clock off at four pm.
Career success is important to me, but I just want
someone to kind of tell me what the shortcuts are.
The good news is my two co hosts give excellent
career advice and they know a lot about business. Michelle
Battersby launched Bumble into this region and now she runs
(01:46):
her own startup called Sunroom. It helps people monetize their content.
And when I enter the workforce in twenty eighteen, look
Michelle was the person I wanted to be. She's literally
thezillennial woman's career idol. My other co host, Sophhurst, is
an ex Google marketing manager and she's the founder of
work Baby. It's a career coaching program for people in
(02:06):
their early career era like myself. Mission sof have been bosses, managers, employees,
and employers, and the way this show is going to
work is that they're going to share all of their
knowledge with tired career girlies like myself. Start being how
to ask for more money?
Speaker 3 (02:24):
How much money can I realistically ask for? I don't
know what's reasonable and what's considered a promotion? Now, my dear,
where to start?
Speaker 2 (02:31):
I swear all my male friends have no problem asking,
but I just feel so embarrassed.
Speaker 3 (02:35):
I just don't know what to say.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
I think I once went in and said could I
maybe look at I don't know, like maybe a pay
rise in six months, and my boss said yeah, sure,
and then never spoke of it again.
Speaker 3 (02:47):
It's so icky talking about money.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
I remember going into a pay rise meeting.
Speaker 3 (02:51):
I had all my ducks in a row.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
I knew everything I was going to say, and the
moment I got in there and stirred down the barrel
at my boss, I got so nervous and completely froze
and we didn't even get to that part of the conversation.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
Talking about pay rises is about as comfortable as when
you have to call in sick when everyone saw you
taking three tequila shots. I'd worked drinks to the night before.
But luckily our beer's career coaches, Michelle and Sof are
going to share exactly what the expert secrets are on
how to nail that conversation. So let's get into it.
Speaker 3 (03:25):
So salary is kind of a weird thing to talk
about work. Actually think it's very awkward to talk about
money with your coworkers, and there's a lot of bad
advice doing the rounds on social media about how to
actually ask. So we're gonna bust some paarise myths and
I answer your big questions about asking your big boss
for more cash. Michelle, you worked in HR, so I
(03:46):
imagine you've been behind the scenes at quite a few
pairrise conversations.
Speaker 4 (03:50):
Yeah, I feel like I've seen the good, the bad,
and the ugly. I once saw someone get a six
figure pay rise off the back of going and getting
a job offer from another company, so we can talk
about if that's do or I don't.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
And I've also seen people get a.
Speaker 4 (04:07):
Bit emotional, get a little aggressive, maybe bring a pay
rise up as a condition or an ultimatum, which is
not the best way to go about it, as it
can move away from the facts and be counterproductive the argument.
Speaker 3 (04:21):
I think it can get very personal. Something I actually
love doing with my clients is you do this sort
of mental flip so instead of they're sitting there thinking
why do I want a pair rise? Why should I
get a pay rise? Try to imagine yourself as your
boss and think why should I give Michelle a pay rise?
Why would I want to give Michelle a pay rise?
So you want to frame it all as the kind
of value and the benefit to the company. If you're
(04:42):
thinking about why a company would want to give you
a pay rise. It's really about a lot of the
time retaining good talent. It's really expensive to hire new talent,
and they really do want to retain good talent. So
this EPP is.
Speaker 5 (04:53):
All about helping you prove that you're good talent.
Speaker 3 (05:11):
Okay, So let's bust some of those myths.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
I went out on my socials and I asked people,
what do you want to know about pay rises? And
I got a ton of questions back, So let's get
into it. Probably one of the most common was when
should I ask? And should I be asking every year?
So I'm very keen for your take on this. Do
you think it's okay to ask for a pay rise
(05:36):
every year?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah? If you are on TikTok, everyone says yes, you
should be asking every year. So, first of all, I
think there's a lot of variation in terms of how
companies approach pay rises. So first find out what the
deal is at your company. At smaller companies, they probably
don't have much process and your manager is probably the
person that's going to approve it. At bigger companies, there's
probably a very formal process. You know, Google it was
(05:58):
very formal and transparent, and the person you are actually
asking your manager is probably several levels away from the
person who's actually approving it. So first, I think, just
understand how the process works at your company. I think
it really helps have mates in HR or in the
finance team to know when budgeting happens and things like that.
But back to the question, so should you ask every year?
(06:19):
I actually really know to this, and I'll tell you why.
I think the ideal situation that you want to get
in is that you've actually created a reason that your
compensation should change. So that's like a change in your scope.
You've got more experience and you're better at your job now,
so you're actually delivering more value to the company, and
you want to prove that. I think just having this
artificial timeline in your head off like every twelve months, I'm
(06:40):
gonna ask, isn't really the right approach. And I think
it's more about what's changed and what can you kind
of package up and proof has changed and therefore you
deserve a pay rise.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
I love that because I obviously do spend too much
time on TikTok because my default was yes, I do
think people should be asking for a pay rise every
twelve months. But my perspective is rooted in those people
actually having performed, Like I'm assuming that all those people
are top performers and they are contributing to the organization.
(07:09):
They have evolved, they have developed. So if you're sitting
there wondering if I should be asking for a pay
rise every twelve months, I feel like the answer is yes.
If you are getting shit done and you're moving the
needle in your role, what are your ink.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
About cost of living and inflation and if employers should
be giving pay rise as based on sort of that changing.
Speaker 4 (07:26):
So I actually think inflation is worth being aware of,
Like that actually is a reason maybe why you could
rationalize asking for a pay rise every year, But you
absolutely should not be bringing up inflation as the reason
why you deserve one, Like just because inflation has occurred
does not entitle you to a pay rise. And I
(07:47):
think if you went into a conversation and that was
your leading argument from an employer perspective, it comes across
as a bit of a weak argument, like give me
your actual tangible results, don't just default to inflation. But
we also need pay rises to ensure we're able to live,
to survive, to pay our rent, to buy our groceries.
So I do think it's a reason why, like, seeking
(08:09):
a pay rise every twelve months is like reasonable from
a human perspective, but you still need to be backing
it up with how you improve the company performance. Otherwise
you're just not going to get the pay rise from
your employer in the first place.
Speaker 3 (08:22):
I did some research into whether employers actually plan to
give pay rises, so there was a say you wire
link in the show notes, but it's sat In Australia,
ninety six percent of employers plan to give pay rises
in twenty twenty four. A third of that was actually
flat for all staff, fourteen percent was to match inflation,
and twenty eight percent was actually based on performance. So
even if your company is planning to give pay rises,
(08:45):
it's still going to be mostly based on performance, so
you need to sort of prove you're delivering.
Speaker 4 (08:50):
Yeah, and if inflation was like two percent or three percent,
for example, you would want more than a two or.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
Three percent pay rise.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
So that's another reason why you wouldn't really want inflation
to be the basis of your argument. But it's more
just a personal reason I think. I think if you're
unsure if you're even paid a fair rate. A really
good place to start is to go to a website
like Hayes or Hudson and look at market data that
will give you an indication of what people in similar
(09:18):
roles to you in your city are being paid. And
I think that's a very good start if you're just
going in completely blind. Back to my point earlier around
if getting offers from other companies is a good way
to get a pay rise or not, I actually do
think interviewing at other jobs is also a very good
(09:38):
way to get a read on what you might be
paid out there in the market. But I do think
if you are then going to use an offer to
try and get a pay rise in a job you're
already in, you definitely need to be willing.
Speaker 3 (09:50):
To walk away.
Speaker 4 (09:51):
So if you're interviewing somewhere else, you have to be
down to take that role, because you might not always
bring that offer to your employer and they might not
match it. They might say no, worries see you later.
So you have to be strategic and like intentional about
how you go about that. If that's a process you're
going to follow, what do.
Speaker 3 (10:09):
You think, Yeah, no, I agree, I think it can
be really effective I think it's massive risk. So the
point that you mentioned before, you have to be willing
to walk away. Another big question is how much dold
I actually ask for? What's actually going to an impact
on your life? So like anything less than five percent
after tax is second out and month and month, you
may not really notice that. And then if you're getting
sort of up to the you know, twenty percent, that's
(10:30):
really a promotion that you're asking for, and that's a
big jump. So I think it's somewhere in the range
at five to fifteen is probably what people are thinking
about in terms of pay rise, but it's going to
be based on so many different factors.
Speaker 4 (10:41):
Amazing. Okay, another question was I feel too uncomfortable asking
is it really worth it?
Speaker 3 (10:47):
What do you think? This is my approach to life.
I think in general, tough conversations are worth it at
work and in life. So you know, a good way
to think about is that good leaders ask for what
they want and need at work all the time. So
in a way, you doing this is actually a demonstration
of your leadership and you shouldn't feel scared about it.
(11:08):
That said, it does take work and preparation, and if
you go into it without prepping, there is a risk
that you show up as not being able to read
the room, that you don't really have your shit together,
and I think that is a risk to it. And
also it's just like a ton of efforts. So I
think you really want to ask yourself how much women
asking for? Is there really a case for this, like
have I actually delut bit, you know, met expectations, exceeded expectations,
(11:32):
has my role changed? And then I think that that
line around there's no harm in asking, just ask. I
do think there is a harmon asking if you don't
do the prep and you don't really have a case,
and you haven't read the room. Chase that into account
and then if all those things are a yes, then
go into it with like this is you showing leadership
and is actually going to be an excellent learning experience
for you. Do not be scared, and I think probably
(11:54):
especially women, more of us should be up scared.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
I think that's such a good answer, no notes from me,
And I think it really moves into the next question
very well, which is should I ask if my company
isn't performing about reading the room? I think you can
ask for a pay rise if your company isn't performing,
but you need to be damn sure that you're still
(12:18):
contributing to the company's objectives. And I think when you
approach the conversation, it would be you know, I know
as a business we haven't reached X, Y, and Z,
but I've got some ideas about how we can do
that in the next quarter. And here's how I'm going
to move that for you. You're showing empathy and compassion,
you're aware that the company isn't quite there, and you're
(12:40):
showing up like but I'm focused on that, and here's
how I'm going to improve that for all of us.
Because I think to your point, if you don't read
the room in that kind of environment, if you don't
do that, well, I don't want to scare people, but
it actually could make you a bit of a target.
So it's good for everyone to be aware how you
contribute to the business consistently.
Speaker 3 (12:59):
I also think it's a long game as well that
sometimes you have to play. So maybe you're going to
ask and then they're going to say no, and then
six months later you sort of want to say to them, well,
if it's a no, now, what would it look like?
What to take for it to be a yes and
sort of start planning message. But yeah, working on it
with your manager together. There's sort of no hum in asking,
knowing that it might you know, but it might be
yes later. Cool.
Speaker 4 (13:19):
So that's your big questions answered. Now you're probably thinking,
so how the hell do I actually ask?
Speaker 3 (13:25):
That's on the way.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
Next the culture.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
Couture, So how do you actually ask for a pay rise?
Remember your mindset, get inside your boss's head. Frame it
in terms of the value you're actually bringing for the company.
Don't make it about you and your personal financial situation
for example, don't mention the saving for a house deposit
(13:56):
or you know, mentioned cost of living. We're going to
make it all about the company and the value you're delivering.
Don't be scared. You have the right to ask, and
it is showing good leadership. Okay, Michelle, you are an
HR expert. Tell us how people can think about framing
their value.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
This is a very simple framework, or you can think
about it just like three prompts, and this is what
you're going to sit down at your desk and think
about before you go into these conversations. And the prompts
are experience, role, and output. So when you think about
your experience. You're obviously thinking about how many years you've
been doing the job. What unique insights do you also
(14:33):
bring based on that experience. But I think when it
comes to advocating for a pay rise, when you've been
at the company for a few years, for example, it's
how has your experience grown? Have you done courses leadership,
have you been on training camps, have you gone to
conferences around the world, whatever it is, You're really thinking
about how you've grown your skill set and your knowledge.
Speaker 3 (14:56):
I love that. So it's not just experience in terms
of I've been here two years, it's actually how have
you invested in improving your experience and the experience that
you have in doing that role. It's like expertise exactly.
Speaker 4 (15:07):
And I know we'll get to this, but that's also
something that you can also be asking for in these
performance conversations, like I want to do a training course
on X, I want to do this online course. Really
simple things people can do that I just think make
them sound and seem a bit smarter. Is got a
bit bored over the break? Did these three online Harvard courses?
You know, they're just really easy little wins that just
(15:30):
make you seem like you care.
Speaker 3 (15:32):
The second thing is role.
Speaker 4 (15:34):
So how has your role evolved? Did someone go and
leave and you took on their responsibilities? Are you managing
more people? Are you actually doing three jobs? Is your
job moving well beyond what the original job description was.
Those are things that you can use to advocate for
a pay rise. The biggest and most important one, though,
(15:56):
is obviously your output. And this really needs to be
evidence and fact based, so numbers relating to your KPIs,
but always bringing it back to the company's objectives as well,
and as we've discussed, really leading with what the business
is trying to achieve and then how you, as an
(16:17):
individual have helped them get there. You have an epic
hack for this because you can also find yourself approaching
these conversations, especially if they only happen once a year
in your business and you've now forgotten half the things
that you've done throughout the year.
Speaker 3 (16:33):
I always hated this so much. It's like summarize twelve
months of your work into six bullet points, and I
you know, you never know what you're gonna do. So
the best hack that I found to doing this is
actually just too every time that you have an example
of good work, and that might be results metrics, it
might be something a client has said about you, it
(16:53):
might be something a cowork has said about you, and
slack anything that is, like you do a good work.
You're going to screenshot that and just throw it in
a folder on your desktop. I try and save like
a couple of week, And what you're gonna find is
when you go through that, you're just gonna jog your
memory and gonna have all these great examples. So that's
the fastest hack I found. The other thing people really
struggle with is how do you actually articulate your value
(17:16):
and kind of summarize it into a nice, neat little
bullet point that sounds profession not in human whatever. I
think that's a really good question that you had from
someone right around this.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yes, another question that people kept coming through with was
how to articulate your value if you've contributed via a
lot of soft skills. So this could be things like
critical thinking, communication, influence, leadership. And I think this is
important because how you get shit done matters, Like I
like to think about it, like soft skills achieve hard outcomes,
(17:48):
you know, So don't think just because you bring softer
skills to the table that you still can't articulate that
into a tangible bullet point, so so please tell us
how to do that.
Speaker 3 (17:59):
We actually just took the words out of my mouth. Yeah,
that's the thing, Like, it's the soft skills that mean
the company can actually do stuff that leads to the hardship.
So yeah, I wanted to give people away that they
can actually think about articulating their soft skills. First of all,
this is what a lot of people miss. You want
to give context to the points that you're actually sharing.
So it's not just about data points and stats, it's
(18:23):
actually give context. Why was it great or why was
it hard? So some examples would be, you know, was
it the first time that you did something like this,
Were there lots of different teams that had to come
together for the first time, was there a really tight
turnaround time on this, or you're dealing with tons of
different roadblocks and delays. So you want to shiny and
building context, and then the main thing is to link
that skill to the actual impact and the results. So
(18:45):
there's a really great sentence you can use, and we're
going to put this in the newsletter. You want to say,
I demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that, and
then you put the impact. So I'm going to give you,
guys an example. Demonstrated leadership by bringing together stakeholders from
four different teams who have never worked together before to
collaborate on a project for the first time, which meant that.
(19:08):
So I think you can actually use context and then
link it to something that actually has impact and a
result attached to it.
Speaker 4 (19:15):
I love that so much. Honestly, I feel like these
will be so helpful for people. I'm sitting here thinking
I wish I could have so in an earpiece as
I do these conversations, but we're actually doing Noah, this
is it.
Speaker 3 (19:26):
I think we've made it super clear.
Speaker 4 (19:27):
So when you're going into these conversations, focus on the company.
I know as a company we've been working towards X,
Y and Z. Here's how I've contributed to that in
my role. And then use your structure. So what were
your three keywords? Can you repeat them for me?
Speaker 3 (19:42):
Demonstrated skill by doing what which meant that result?
Speaker 4 (19:48):
Skill what which meant that result?
Speaker 3 (19:52):
Love it?
Speaker 4 (19:52):
Okay, So what happens if they say, no, slash, we
don't have the budget right now?
Speaker 3 (19:59):
Yeah, which probably will happen, right. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (20:01):
I think in this situation it's like I wouldn't take
no as meaning no full stop.
Speaker 3 (20:07):
It just means not right now.
Speaker 4 (20:09):
This is an opportunity to continue the conversation and as
you said, play the long game. And I also think
you can ask for different things in the meantime that
aren't just monetary right totally.
Speaker 3 (20:21):
So one of my favorite things to do is actually,
if you get a no, then think about asking for
non financial pay rise. So that might be something like
there's this specific course that I really want to do.
It might be I really want this opportunity to work
on a specific project, or like a really cool mentoring opportunity.
You might want to travel a little bit more. So
maybe it's like, you know, can't take it to Melbourne,
(20:42):
whatever it is you want to be asking and think
about non financial incentives as well. The interesting thing about
asking for non financial incentives or like a non financial
pay rise. If you think about like say you get
a pay rise and it's two thousand dollars and then
tax comes out of it, it's actually not that much
in the end. But there's this quote from Warren Buffett,
who's one of the most famous investors in the world,
(21:04):
and he actually says, by far, the best investment you
can make is in yourself. And so you might actually
be better taking that two grand and investing that in
your own skills and your own self instead of just
thinking about getting the cash. Okay.
Speaker 4 (21:19):
So we're all about concrete action points here, it biz,
So so what are they?
Speaker 5 (21:23):
So?
Speaker 3 (21:23):
One, do your research. Understand how your company runs the
promotion and pay rise system and know the market rates
for your role and your industry. Two is start planning early.
So talk about what is expected of you and your
role with your manager. Make sure you understand the big
company priorities, style your winds folder, and you know, consider
(21:44):
giving your manager heads up like this is something that
I actually want to work towards. And then three, make
it about them, not you. So this is about the
value that you delivered. Grab Michelle's experience role output framework
in the newsletter and that will have you totally sort it.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Okay, So listening to Michelle and so you guys, I've
been doing this all wrong. I didn't realize that I
shouldn't just walk into my boss's office and beg for money,
just like Oliver Twist style. If you don't implement a strategy,
not only is your manager going to say no to you,
but you'd probably also give them the IG, which I
know we all know is way worse. So here's what
(22:28):
I'm actually going to do, and you should too if
you want more money. But you hate those awkward conversations.
So first, I'm going to start keeping a track of
all of the good stuff I do at work. Because
I didn't realize my boss wasn't psychic and didn't know
I've been staying back late nearly every day this past week.
I mean, it's kind of rude, but it's understandable. Then
I'm going to go straight to Hayes dot com dot
(22:49):
au to figure out what I should actually be earning.
And finally, I'm going to practice saying I deserve more
money in the mirror, and I'm going to try to
do it without cringing, because apparently asking for what you
want is leadership. It's not being annoying, which is so
great to know. Thank you so much for listening to
our first episode of BIZ and look, we want to
(23:10):
tell you that we are here to help. Well, Michelle
and Sofa here to help do not worry. I will
not try to help you myself. Think of them as
your new work mentors. They're ready to answer your actual
work question, So make sure you sign up to our
newsletter to get all the support you need. Plus our
Biz Inbox episodes drop later in the week where we
answer all of your questions and the biggest work issues
(23:32):
that are trending on TikTok. See you next time. We
hope you enjoyed that very first episode of BIZ. If
you want to learn more about how to make the
most out of your working life, make sure you're following
BIZ in your favorite podcast app. There will be a
link in our show notes and join us on Thursdays
(23:54):
as we dive into the Biz Inbox. It's a weekly
second drop from BIZ where we answer all of your
work related questions
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