June 2, 2025 • 53 mins
Chances are, you’ve read at least one Marian Keyes book, and that if you've read one, you’ve read many.
Since her first novel, Watermelon, was published in 1995, Keyes has written 24 books - all with guts and heart, wicked humour and her her trademark Irish wit.
Not only is Marian one of the most successful novelists of her generation, she’s also shared the ups and downs of her own life, writing about challenges she’s personally faced from depression to alcoholism and loss. All of this has also made her an excellent "agony aunt", as evidenced on her BBC podcast co-hosted by Tara Flynn, Now You're Asking.
On this episode of MID, Holly was joined in person by Marian on her a recent trip to Sydney to talk midlife heroines and to answer the questions you sent in about everything from friendship-ghosting to relationship "holidays".
Enjoy this conversation with the one and only Marian Keyes
Follow us here: https://www.instagram.com/midbymamamia/
Follow Marion Keyes here: https://www.instagram.com/marian_keyes/
CREDITS:
Host: Holly Wainwright
Guest: Marian Keyes
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Grace Rouvray
Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
Mamamia acknowledges the Traditional Owners of the Land we have recorded this podcast on, the Gadigal people of the Eora Nation. We pay our respects to their Elders past and present, and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander cultures.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. I don't think my
daughter in law likes me. I'm not sure what it
is I've done wrong. My team thinks that I'm their therapist.
I can't lose weight no matter what I do. My
best friend ghosted me and my heart is broken. My
(00:37):
hairdresser's highlights have failed. My husband doesn't understand my perry phase.
I'm never good enough for my mother in law. I'm
lonely help. I don't want to go to my best
friend's baby shower because for me, the IVF just won't work.
Behind every problem, every question, a story, a small hurt
(01:00):
or a big one, a betrayal. We can't admit to
someone who's done us wrong. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright and
I am mid midlife, midfamily, midfix. Today we are solving problems,
your problems like the ones you just heard. And when
(01:22):
I say we, I mean we, because sitting beside me
today to talk through your troubles is a hero of mine.
One Marian Keys. Marian says that she started writing books
four thousand years ago but actually it was only thirty
years ago. I bet that you have read at least
(01:45):
one Maryan Keys, and if you've read one, you've probably
read I don't know fifteen. Her first Watermelon, was published
in nineteen ninety five, and ever since, the way she
spins up the sticky themes of our real lives with
wicked humor and big dollops of heart and irish wit
have made her both incredibly successful and beloved. She has
(02:08):
written twenty four books now and sold more than there
are zeros to count. And not only is this woman
one of the most successful novelists of her generation. Not
only has she shared her hilarious natural storytelling with the world,
but she's also shared herself. Because Marian has written about
depression and alcoholism and loss, and these are things that
(02:30):
she has lived as well as written. And if you,
like me, are just a little bit obsessed with Mary Keys,
you'll know there's something else she does too. A podcast
of her own for the BBC called Now You're Asking
with fellow writer and great friend Tara Flynn, and on
that they answer listener's questions with as much heart as expertise.
(02:51):
So when Marian was in Sydney, recently for an event
to celebrate her lady's book, My Favorite Mistake, which I
was lucky enough to host for her. I couldn't resist
asking her to come and tell me how things are going,
update me on the world and on the Walshisters, who
she's written so many books about that you love, and
also to help us with some of those sticky mid
(03:13):
questions of yours. Come sit with us and let solve
some problems. Marian, thank you so much for being here
with me today.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I know that all the mid audience are going to
be so excited that you're here. We were talking of
Mike about how you've had a couple of chats with
me here before on No Filter, and I'm going to
put the links to those episodes in the show notes
on this so people can go back and listen to
those two. Thank you, because selfishly, I really want to
talk to you about My Favorite Mistake.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Thanks. That's not selfish at.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
All, because it's a Welsh family book. Yes am I
right in that this is the eighth, it's.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
The seventh, but they're all standalones, right in case anyone
is worried.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
No you don't, Yeah, you don't have to have read
no but that feature the same family they do. And
so although they don't, although they're all standalones, the thing
that's glorious is obviously the characters are all grown up
now like us. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, I've been about them for thirty years, and I
was thirty one, I think when I got started. So yeah,
as I've aged, they've aged.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And it's I think there's so much, particularly in this
book that's wonderful about Anna and this phase of life
that a lot of our listeners are in.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, Anna's forty eight and is invisible to young men
on the street. She walks through a pile of them.
They just refuse to make room for her, and she
just barrels through them out of rage and just the
fact that they have no manners. And yeah, she's going
(04:47):
through menopause. She's like genuinely burnt out on a very
stressful job. She's had a long relationship that has kind
of run its course, and she doesn't see any point
in hanging around trying to resuscitate it. And she kind
of throws her entire life up in the air and
(05:08):
waits to see where things will land. And she's angry
and she's hopeful, and she feels still entitled to love
and to sex and to live in whatever way she
feels like living. And I've seen that, like I'm older
(05:29):
than that, I'm sixty one, but I've seen it so
much in women in their late forties and fifties and older.
I've just deciding, I've still got like decades of life
ahead of me, and I don't really enjoy I'm not
getting the same kind of enjoyment out of my life
as I have been for the last twenty thirty whatever years,
And I just want to try living in a different way,
(05:51):
and I love to see it happen, like in big
ways in small ways, like last year, I took a
lot of time off work and I went back to
college and I did a course just something that I
had always wanted to do and never really felt that
it was the right time to do it. But I've
seen people but like leave marriages or you know, or
(06:12):
just take breaks from their marriage or just leave their
job and decide that they will live very frugally for
a while until they figure out what they want or
can do next. You know, there's a feeling that like
life is for living, and it is not infinite.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, it's not infinite. But also it's not done before
it's done.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Oh god, absolutely not for as long as we're alive.
We're alive.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yes, I love that you've just said that about this,
because this is exactly obviously, which was your intention, what
I got from Anna. So when we meet her at
the beginning of the book, she's in New York, where
she's been for a long time, and as she says,
she's burnt out and she's been through COVID. So and
then what I love is that when she decides she's
going to move home, and obviously we're not going to
(07:06):
do spoilers, but that's pretty much in the book. Are
a bit like really, and it made me think about,
you know, when you're making those big changes in your
life that a lot of people do this stage. Often
the people around.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
You, they don't celebrate it. They really don't. It's not
like a movie like, it's really not there. You don't
get applauded. I mean, in Anna's particular case, she works,
she does pr for like a load of skincare brands,
so her sisters and her mother's and her mother are
used to getting free stuff. And now that she's giving
up her job. They won't be getting any more free stuff.
(07:41):
And it is really funny when something people can be
happy for you in the abstract, but if it impacts
you negatively, then people stop being happy for you. It's
very It's just people are complicated, and you know, people
are always going to kind of react from their own
their own needs, are their own wants. So no, her
(08:03):
mother and sisters are really really disappointed and afraid.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yes I'm afraid for her, but also for them how
it impacts them, because as you say, I think that,
as you say that, people are ready to applaud you
unless it impacts them or be it makes them wonder
about their lives.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Oh that's another thing. Yes, that's another thing. Yes, if
somebody comes to you and says, you know, I'm leaving
my husband of whatever number of years, and say, until
this point you have always thought he was fine, a
bit boring, but actually really quite boring. But he was okay.
But then when one person starts leaving their husband, it
(08:41):
kind of makes one question your own circumstances and thinking, well,
should I be leaving mine? Or or actually mine is
less than optimal. You know, you kind of start wondering
at what point does less than optimal become unsustainable, you know,
or like if somebody else says, actually, I've decided to
(09:02):
stop drinking. You know, I actually think I kind of
have an issue with it, and I'm stopping People who
might have talked behind your back, you know, about how
bad you're drinking was up to this point, might suddenly
think Jesus Christ, know you're fine. You're fine. No, really,
you're fine. You just overdo it like at birthdays or whatever,
But you're fine. Because once people, once one person kind
(09:24):
of changes their life, it makes the people around them
start looking at their own lives and thinking, should I
be changing in mind? Do I need changing or fixing?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Did your family think that feel like that when you
went did your course last year?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Why is Marian going back to college?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
No?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Actually no, they were fairly happy for me. The funny
thing is, like I studied law like eight million years ago.
I have a law degree. But one of the women
that I went through university with, she also went back
to college last year to study fashion. Like, you know,
we're in our sixties and I kind of, you know,
(10:04):
it's much harder to learn new things at this age.
But you can still do it.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yes, it's still.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Possible, and why not. Yeah, it's so exciting. Yes, when
you've always been curious about something but the door has
been blocked to you for whatever reason, and suddenly somebody
is saying, come in, I'll deconstruct it for you.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
What cost did you go back to?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
You need to do interior design? Yeah, Like, I've always
loved color and fabric, and as it turned out, it
wasn't really about that. It was about more fundamentals. Like
I know this sounds pathetic, but I am really good
at measuring things now, like and I have a lovely
eight meter long yellow metal measuring tape that my husband
(10:47):
bought me, which honestly is one of my most favorite
things ever. Yeah, so I'm kind of good at the
technical stuff. And then I had taken enough time off work,
so you know, I've I've parked it for the moment.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
So have you been putting that to you? So you
let doing your house? I am need to love it.
I love it. Yes, Yeah, I am your style. I
know nothing about interior design, right, but I know that broadly,
there's like minimalism, and there's like shabby she and there's
gold toilets. I don't know what's your style.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
It's sort of girly gothic girl. Yeah, like I bought
an antique wooden carved bed from Portugal, and yeah, kind
of a lot of black and purple colored wallpapers. It's
and green glass. It's the spare bedroom. I want people
to come in and feel sort of mildly uneasy, you know,
(11:38):
that they're kind of happy to stay for a night,
but maybe not for much longer.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
God, that's perfection. It's great. So what I loved about
Anna and the other wallh sisters, but in this book,
so you nail. And it's not surprising, of course, these
particular midlife moments, like before she decides because she's, as
you said, she's going through perimenopause and menopause, and before
she does get into the HRT, she tries looming for
(12:04):
a while. She's you know, and which I think is
so common, is that lots of so like, what's happening
to me? Yes, I need to find a way to
man regulate myself. Maybe gardening is my cliched answer. Maybe
you know, looming or whatever, scrap booking or what those
kind of things.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, upcycling furniture, yes, that was mine for a while.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yes, So we grab onto these things and then finally
we're like, okay, something really is happening. Yeah, and Anna,
like very many women, including myself, then she's on an
almost comic but serious quest for our HRT. The doctors
don't want to give it to her. It's out of
stock at the chemists. We've all been there.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, I mean, it's bizarre, like half of the world's
population go through this and have done since the dawn
of time, and like, why has it never been spoken
about when it is Okay, some people breeze through it,
and fair play to them, lucky them, but I don't
want to hear from them, thank you very much, because
for an awful lot of people, it's incredibly debilitating, because
(13:06):
it's like adolescence in reverse, and like we can see
now as adults how awful it is for teenagers, like
the terror, the change of the moods. They can't regulate,
the changes in their body, the changes in their identity
and sense of self. And that's what menopause is, its
adolescence in reverse, and for an awful lot of people
(13:29):
it's very, very frightening, and like for me, it wasn't
so much the hairiness and the hot flushes. It was
the anxiety, And it was like forgetting people's names, Like
when that first began to happen, like I thought I
was getting dementia, and there was no one there to say, oh,
that's probably part of the menopause. That's probably you know,
(13:52):
you're depleted in estrogen or whatever.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Like.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
There hasn't been a road map given to us, Like
there has been just complete silence about all the possible
ways that it can affect us.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I think that's one of the things that's so good
about this book is that, as we were saying before,
it's your characters have aged as we've aged, and we
are seeing these issues being explored in all kinds of
different accessible ways now, including in our favorite fictional people.
But before I get onto one of the things that
I love the most about Anna, which is that she
still wants to have sex and fall in love, I
(14:26):
just have to tell you that one of the things
I'm not sure which one of your characters mentions is,
but they say that a podcast about murders committed by
menopausal women against man's plaining men. I was like, that's
a solid idea.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
That's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
When you're done with now you're asking this is your
ex podcast women who have been wrongly convicted.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
It wasn't their fault. They were pushed beyond human endurance. Yeah,
that we need that.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yes, after this shortbreak, more from the very funny Marrying
Keys on sex and desire and so much more. One
of the things that is most common that a lot
of women feel as they get all that, as you've
mentioned already, is invisible and we are often written or
perceived as being these sort of either just hypernurturers or
(15:20):
just sort of bland and self sacrificing. But Anna is
a properly layed person and she has when she does
sort of restart her life again in this small town,
she has options when it comes to love and sex.
And I love the way you wrote that. Were you
intentional about wanting to explore that for women in that
(15:42):
of this age?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I suppose I was, because I mean, I really dislike
the mythology around women and sex. You know, is that
you know is that women actually don't like sex at all,
and that it's merely transactional, that like, women will only
have sex in order to get their grass cut or
to have shelves puts off. Yes, you know that it's
only ever given. You know that it's never joyful or
(16:07):
like or lost for or you know that women aren't
allowed to be horny or or are loving. Yes, you
know that it's always given kind of in a mean
spirited way.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
It's a weapon or a yes, or something to be
swapped for something else. Commitment.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, exactly, exactly, And like you know, I know a
lot of women. We all do, probably, and we all
have different attitudes to sex at different points of our lives.
And the worst myth of all is that like women
shut up shop entirely at forty because that's not what
(16:45):
I see and some people do. And again, I really
mean this with love. If that's how it is for you,
if you feel, you know, you just don't want it,
you're dead from the neck down and you and your
partner are happy, that's wonderful. But like I don't, not
every woman I know feels like that. Far from it.
(17:06):
And you know, people have kind of happy sex within
a really relationship, or people have various flings, or people
just they're not committed to anyone and they're having joyful,
happy sex. And yeah, I just wanted to show that
there are many ways to be a woman after forty
(17:27):
and that an awful lot of us are still having sex.
And you know, and again, it's not something that kind
of travels in a straight line. The desire comes and
goes all depending on your life circumstances, how what your
body is doing, you know, how your workload is, how
(17:47):
stressed you're feeling or not feeling, how resentful or not
that you're feeling. You know, it's something that's in flux.
It's not a fixed part of our identity, and it's
something that can always be picked up again. You can
go through long spells of thinking that's gone forever, yeah,
and then it can come back.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Which I think is reflected in this because obviously Anna's
reflecting on different bits of her life, and there's the
kind of section you might have when you're young, other
way you feel about somebody at that time, and then
there are periods of your life when you're like, I
wonder if I'm ever going to feel like that again,
And Anna's kind of feeling like that because she's been
with this lovely, sensitive guy, and then the stirring for
the bad boy kind of comes back, and I just
(18:27):
what I just like about all that is it's just
very human, which is what we all are, rather than
it being like midlife ladies.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, don't do any of that or any of them. Yeah, no,
I mean, and like in many ways, like Anna is
a lot more mature than she used to be, and
she knows that this bad boy well was a bad boy,
and that there's an awful lot of kind of potential
heartbreak from going down their road.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
But she's still self protected.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, would she still fancies something. And I love that
for her because people still fancy each other like that
doesn't seem to stop, or people still get crushes on
people that doesn't stop, or people still fall in love.
I just think you know that thing that like young
people think that they invented sex. Yeah, they really do.
(19:14):
Mean in no disrespect, I was young myself once, But
that kind of giddy butterflies in your stomach feeling, there's
always potential for that, which is beautiful. It's lovely, isn't it?
Is it?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I just ask you one more thing about the Welsh
family before I get I ask you nicely to answer
some of our listeners questions. Is it lovely to spend
time with them again if you're writing, you know, as
you said, this is your seventh book about them, and
I know that your audience loves it when you write
about them and they welcome them back like old friends.
(19:45):
Is that what it feels like to you?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah? I mean I'd never intended to write a sequel.
I'd given each of the five sisters their book, yes,
and the last one was in twenty twelve, and then
through the pandemic, I decided to return to Rachel. And
it was so lovely because I couldn't see my own
family during lockdown, and it did feel like I had well,
I certainly had the same They have the same energy
the Watches as my family, that kind of noisy, opinionated.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Funny, funny, funny.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
It was lovely. And then I was going to write
a very different book after again Rachel, and I thought, no,
I'm just I prefer to stay in a happy place
for a while, so I stayed with that. Then I
was all set to do a third sequel, but my
editor said yet, really, yeah, she did, that's enough Watches
for a while, she said, So I'm writing something different,
but they do it feels it just feels very familiar
(20:34):
and fun and war and safe. That's what it feels.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, right, and they almost live alongside you and they
are I don't know if you're allowed to talk about this. Yes,
I yeah, you are, Yes, yes, yes, because the TV series, Yes,
the Walsh Systems.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yes, the first The first series has wrapped the BBC,
the BBC. It's coming to Australia on Stan. Yeah, it's
going to be out in November, I think in the
Northern Hemisphere. I don't know when it will be here.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Have you been involved?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, I'm called an executive producer. I don't know what
that means.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I mean what says who I work with? Her book
has been turned in and she's she says, I'm the
executive producer. But yeah, I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, yeah, I have no idea and I think I
have no rights either, But it doesn't matter. They're ask
me small things like would Maggie wear disengagement ring and
stuff like that, which I love being asked. And you know,
I was allowed on set, like I was allowed off
her opinions.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I didn't like to see them come to Lifeline.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
It was so beautiful. I've lived with them for thirty
years and my husband and I went to the set
together and we don't have children, and we wanted children.
And I don't know if this is part of it,
but like we arrived and this woman was strutting along
and like she had amazing blonde highlights in her hair,
(21:48):
and she had like gold rimmed sunglasses, and she was
just really glamorous and fabulous, and I thought, that's Claire.
And then there's another one and she's her hair is
sort of in a mullet, and there's something slightly off
about her. Her jeans are slightly too short, she's got
like her hands bunched into fists in her pockets, and
she's kind of just just very dissatisfied with the world.
(22:08):
And that was Helen, and it was it was so
weird to see these people that I recognized by their
clothes and their body language.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
It must have been well done, yeah, because it must
have been very beautifully produced because they've done.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Such a lovely job. They really have. You know, it
was fairly low budget, but you would never know how
it was made with so much love. It's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think people are going to be very.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
It's very uplifting and it's very kind of Yeah, it's
very loving.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Actually, just because of what you just said about you
and your husband going to set and you hadn't had kids.
One of the other things I love about Anna in
this book is the other thing that's that comes through
is the choices that all the sisters have made, or
choices that weren't even choices, things that have happened to them.
Is the making peace with things, like holding on to
some of the sadnesses that are always going to be there.
(23:03):
It's just very well rounded, like it's just that's what
life's like, like a loss, doesn't you know, Anna lost
had a terrible loss in her husband. But it doesn't
mean that everything's funny there. I think you are masterful
of that complexity.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Thank you so much, Holly. Yeah. I mean, nobody gets
through life without something, you know, one of those huge,
painful things that are only meant to happen to other people.
It happens to us all, even if it's something as banal.
I hope that word isn't offensive, but like, you know,
to lose a parent, you know, it's so it happens
(23:40):
to everyone, but it's so huge and so shocking, and
the idea of getting over something I don't really think
of it in those terms anymore. But I live alongside
things and I don't, and the volume of loss gets
dialed down, and then there are days when it can
(24:01):
be suddenly very loud again, and that's okay, It's all okay.
I don't think anything ever really goes way. It stays
on file, and it can be resuscitated under certain circumstances.
But we've survived it this far. We are more resilient
than we know. Somebody said that to me recently. And
(24:21):
often we don't know how resilient we are until we're
in the circumstances that need the resilience. But we are.
I know this sounds really trite, but we are stronger
than we know we are. And yeah, just because we
have survived the loss doesn't mean that it will never
(24:41):
be painful against you know, the pain will come back,
and then it will recede and we'll still be here.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Marian. One more thing on aging, so physical aging, as
in how we look, because physical aging means all kinds
of things, of course, but how we look is something
that also gets touched on quite a bit in here.
I love that Anna is when she gets to this
small town Nile and she is finding that way to
get the boatox pretty quickly, which is great. But I
love this paragraph that you wrote about Anna's view of
(25:08):
what was matt hat and old because she'd been living
in New York for a long time and then she
goes back to Ireland and can I just read to
you this little bit?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Thank you please?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah? She said, this is a warning against being a
person who tends towards optimism. I hadn't thought of myself
as middle aged, never mind old. I think that's something
that we all feel at that point. You could blame
my mindset on Manhattan, where once you hit forty, aging
no longer happened, or rather, an elaborate protocol was used
(25:38):
to blur the evidence, including but not limited to restaalin, retinol,
hit yoga, hair bowtox, hair botox, edible collagen, low carving,
no carving, intermittent fasting, be twelve injections, and wearing trainers
and dimante canes to black tie garlands. This seemed to
work efficiently until maybe the age of ninety two, where
your hit broke unexpectedly while you were opening the fridge,
(26:01):
and then a conversation had to be had. Now, Anna
says that because she'd done spin classes four times a week,
and she had the stressful job that stopped her remaining,
and she was doing botox and fillers and all the things.
She thought she could pass for a woman much younger
than her, but she realized that she was just Manhattan.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
All. Yeah, she was like masking the evidence. Yeah, because
it is a thing, because I have botox and you know,
and I kind of I'm at my face with various things,
you know, But then my feet are gone to the dogs,
Like I have a Bonian. They're painful, you know, and
it's like that's not meant to happen, you know, Like
(26:38):
and like I still run, but like I'm in bits.
You know. There's something kind of going on with my
left arm. And it's really strange when your body starts
letting you down in those kind of ways.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Do you think, though, that we have maybe decided that
aging is a choice. You can face it off. Yeah.
Resources exactly, enough resources and the right like peer group
who can hook you up with all the rare things
that we think it's a choice. And that's why it's
almost more shock when you have asked, starts doing something
funny and refuses to go away.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, that it's a choice and sort of an obligation almost,
and that if if anything goes wrong, it's your own fault.
You could have prevented that if you had done X,
Y or Z and then protein. Yeah, but actually no,
I cannot hold back, you know, time, and then that's
(27:36):
a bit kind of can't I. This is very disappointing,
you know, with all the things I was doing and
they still weren't enough. Yeah, it's funny because we are
living so much longer, but we are not remaining in
perky twenty seven year old style help till the age
of one hundred and twelve, you know that. Yeah, we are. Actually,
(27:59):
the d L joints aren't great, and these things happen,
and it's a surprise.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
It is a surprise. Don't go anywhere, because when you
come back, we're getting to your questions. Yes, yours, mid listeners,
you sent them to me, and now Marian and I
are going to talk them over, and her answers are
very marrying keys in the best possible way back in
a tick. My other Maryan Keys related obsession is your
(28:31):
podcast with Tara Flynn, My beloved Tara, My goodness, you
two on that show. I shouldn't be promoting other podcasts
on my podcast just Rude, But now you're asking is
a joy, and I bet there are so many MID
listeners who listen to it. So you answer listener questions, Yeah,
you and Tara all kinds of things, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Like funny, serious, dark, not dark.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It's one of my favorite comfort listens. I just love
listening to you. So when I knew you were going
to come on MID, I said, do you think that
we could ask some of our listeners. I would be
honored because I think they would love us to talk
through some of their Sure, we might have to put
a bit of color around some of these because I
asked them on social media and the box where they
(29:13):
put their problems quite small. Okay, we've got really good,
succinct problems. We may have to color in some context.
I'm going to start with actually my favorite of all
the problems. Okay, I got this is a very good
problem to have from one of our middle listeners who says,
I want to spend three months in Italy next year
with my bestie but no husbands.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
How do we tell the husbands? Okay, this is fantastic,
good problem. This is it's a great problem. And it's
also it's very zeitgeist.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, you know, isn't it Like it's hard to know
what age they are.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
So I think I think we can assume that most
of these listeners are over fourteen, not necessarily, but let's
say broadly like forty.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, okay, all right, so grown up as I them. Yes, yes, yes, yes, okay.
I mean I think it's a fabulous thing to do,
and I think the way to do it is to
present it as a huge positive. You know, I've had
this great idea, you know, and maybe there's something the
(30:24):
husband has always wanted to do. There probably is. There's
always there are always dreams that we've never had a
chance to fulfill. And to present it as you can
go and I don't know, walk the Camino, or or
do a tour of all the great football grounds of Europe.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Or oh you could stay high home, peace and quiet.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
For three months.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yes, yeah, I wonder if I would maybe, but this
might spoil the whole thing. But I might say we
could meet up in the middle or something for a while.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Well, I would present that in vague terms. Maybe we
could even and meet up, yeah, you know, somewhere if
her past across. I mean, probably kind of quite new
at the end, but you know, never finish the sentence,
you know, just kind of throw it into the mix,
but never actually wild it down. And the thing is,
I think people are more emotionally literate than they used
(31:25):
to be, you know, and that it would be easy
to say to the person because Okay, if I was
the person being left at home or being told tour
the football grounds, I might feel kind of rejected. Or
is this the first part of a kind of a
you know, a divorcing or whatever, you know, for somebody
to be honest with you and say, I'm mad about you.
(31:45):
You know, you're my best friend, Like I want us
to grow older together, but I want to do this
with my friend and only with her. You know, the
dynamic would be completely different if you came with us.
You know, you are a good man. You're an intelligent person.
Please try and understand that. Even if he isn't a
good intelligent man, say it anyway, you know, kind of
(32:07):
lead with the positive, you know, yes, say and like
you could go and hang out with your brother or
the guys, or you know, you could just you know, yeah,
and then at three months, after three months, I'll come
back and I can show you. I don't know, I
can do a slide show whatever. Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah,
(32:28):
Like I really think the thing is right. We get
one life, you know, and if you don't ask, you
don't get And.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
This might be your moment to say this, right, yes.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, And like if you kind of anticipate how the
other person will be feeling when you when you ask,
stroke tell them, you know, try and meet their fears
and their insecurities head on and and ask them to
trust you. You know that you've been together for eight years,
(33:01):
fifteen years already, and that you're going anyway. Yeah, because
they because once you've kind have forged that plan and
been brave enough to ask. If you're told no, that's
going to damageationship anyway.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
That we could maybe come back from that, but it
will always the resentment there.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I think you're right. So I don't think it's an
ass yea.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Three months out of eighty years or however long we're
living these days.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yes, yeah, not bad. Okay, this one is a little
more serious. My husband is sixteen years older. It's been
perfect for decades, decades okay her many, but now he's
an old man. In mind, body, and spirit.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Oh dear, Oh, this is so sad. Sad, that is so.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
But this is this is a thing that age differences,
which you know, very common and happen all the time,
and no big deal. Sometimes they shift as you age,
right in whichever direction. I mean, that's obvious. I suppose
that they shifted you age. But it isn't a problem.
It isn't a problem. It is a problem. And suddenly
it's odd.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, yeah, suddenly, and forgive my language, but kind of
suddenly the older partner falls over a cliff in terms
of the aging process. You know, for a long time,
they're they're they're great for their age, and then we
can't outrun the process, not forever, and like people age differently,
(34:34):
And this is incredibly sad. And for the listener who
has written in, first of all, you have my my
acute sympathy because you've lost the man you love and
that now you're having to caretake in a way that
perhaps you had never anticipated. Because you know, when we
(34:56):
know somebody at their their most vital and vibrant and
strong and healthy, it's kind of impossible to imagine them
being properly old until it happens and I mean, in
practical terms, I would ask you to get as much
support as possible. If you have children, if you have
(35:18):
extended family, you know, if their home helps, like we
have them in Ireland. You know, get as many people
as who can, who can help, you know, pick up
the practical slack. But then also spend time with your
husband and you know, remember them sorry. You know what,
(35:45):
it's kind of very hard to be kind to people
when they let us down, when they let us down
by getting sick or aging. I know it's a really
kind of selfish response, but it's human, But I be kind.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Do you think do you think that this part, as
she says when she says help, this part is going
to be hard, right, this part is going to be hard.
But the decades that you've had that are perfect, maybe
this is payback.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I mean, that's an awful kind of transaction the way
of looking at it. But it's I suppose it's a
fact and you were clearly very happy. You say it
at the start of your letter. You know, you were
very happy, And that's still possible, not all the time,
like things have definitely changed, but it's still it's still there.
(36:36):
But to also find a way to grieve separately. Okay,
that sounds very selfish. Okay, enjoy what you can of
what remains of the man you married, and at the
same time find a way to grieve. See a counselor,
(36:57):
I don't know, some sort of spiritual practice, maybe like meditation,
anything that helps kind of you to live with the
pain of this. Do it and get as much practical
help as you can. And I wish you so.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Wells Absolutely, it's it's a lot to be able to
say that out loud, even I think friendships. So many
questions about friendships.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Mary, Isn't it bizarre? It's the most the most taboo relationship.
It's so rarely openly discussed female friendships.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
It's true. So I've got a couple about friendships, but
this is a good one because it's about how to
put a boundary in place, basically. And I think you
I've heard you talk about this before. This woman says,
I've got a high school friend I see twice a year,
once on my birthday and once on hers. I've come
to hate these birthday dinners. It's forced, and we have
nothing in common. And if I talk about enjoying work
(37:51):
or my kids doing well, she gets annoyed, suggests, I
guess that she doesn't feel that way. How do I
stop these birthday dinners? I get so anxious when they
come around, But I don't want to hurt her.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Oh my god, who doesn't who doesn't sympathize and identify
FI with this? Oh? And I feel so bad for
the letter writer because, yeah, like the remnants of the
kind of the friendship that was once there that makes
you not want to hurt them. I mean, there are
two there are three things you can do. One is
(38:25):
you carry on as you are. Please don't like, please
don't like, please please please don't.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Your birthday is kind of important to yeah, feeling anxious
about this event you don't want to.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
And also to be seeing a person who kind of
doesn't celebrate your successes and joys, like, don't do that
to yourself, like, please don't. Life is far shorter than
we realize. I mean, if you add up all those birthdays,
how many months of your life have you spent in
the company of a person who doesn't celebrate your happiness? Okay,
(38:57):
so you could continue doing it, but I'm begging you
not to. You could say, I mean, people have done
this you know, you could say it's really not working
for me anymore. You know, I wish you well, I
really sincerely do, but we won't be friends going forward.
Isn't it very funny? Like you could say that to
(39:17):
a boyfriend or a husband or something. You could say,
you know, I have loved you and I don't love
you anymore, and our lives will be separate from now on.
And people might be upset, but they wouldn't think it
was odd.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
No, and they're not say now I don't think so. Well, no,
they might.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
They might, but but you can stand your ground. Or
you could do the gentle slip, which is so around
the time of your birthday. You could be very busy.
You could have gone away, somebody took you away for
a weekend in such a place. And then I know
(39:55):
this is awful, but could you have some sort of
ear infection? You know, maybe not actually diagnosed, but like
you know, you're not hearing so well and there's a
kind of blocked up feeling like you've been swimming and
you can't hear very well. A point and then let
a couple of texts go on, red, I've got this
brutal I know, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
It's just tricky though, right because one of the other
ones I've got is that this person said that they
feel their good friend has ghosted them, is what we're
sort of almost suggesting here, and that they've said, I've
got no idea what I've done, and I can't stop
thinking about it now that that's like the other side
of this. But when you were saying before you could
say to them, you know, I don't love you anymore,
(40:38):
or you know, words that effect, the thought of doing that,
particularly face to face.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Is horrific.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
It almost feels impossible climbing every yeah, jumping out of
a plane or something.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, yeah, you think you got to email it? What
do you think? I mean, it's God, it's difficult. You know,
we can't be saints. Oh god, I mean it's hard
because who wants to cause pain to another person? But okay,
all right, if you felt and this doesn't come across,
(41:09):
if the woman who wrote in and felt that, like
this other woman is trilled to see her and it's
delighted to see her, and like it really like lifts
her up, and she loves here and all the news
and she's so happy for all the good things in
the letter writer's life, you'd feel, ah, for God's sake,
how much does it kill me to spend two and
a half hours in her company twice a year? That's
(41:30):
but if you're already getting if you're feeling undermined and
that you have nothing in common, a little brutality. See,
I would find this very very difficult, very very who
wouldn't I? And only a psychopath was literally only a psychopath.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
And this is why I think that maybe it is
a time when it is permitted to put it in writing,
all right, because I think that maybe because I know
what you mean about if it's only wants a year
two hours. But she says she feels anxious, and she
uses the word I've come to hate these dinners, So
that suggests she comes home feeling terrible. Yeah, And you know,
sometimes I think it's cruel when we might go home
(42:08):
and we might she might then bit about this woman
friends to our husband or two around for ages and
in a way that's not gravy either, No, it's not.
So maybe this is a time when you're allowed to
run email.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yes, and to be and to write it with huge
love and pick the words yeah, and to not assign
any blame, but to say it's simply our lives have
gone in such different directions and I like blah blah blah,
(42:41):
and you like such and such, and I get pleasure
from this thing, and you're the things you love leave
me cold. And not even language like that, but just
just to kind of lovingly give reasons for yes, why
why there, why it is in no longer nourishing, it
(43:02):
no longer serves you in the in the therapy language. Yeah,
and just you know, to end with that, you know,
to wish them happiness and joy and peace and like
every good thing that they could have in their life
and detached with love.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I think. I think that's good because I also think
that to our other writer, the other lady who wrote
in and said I'd love some advice about being ghosted,
I have no idea what I've done, and I can't
stop thinking about it. I think that if you do,
if you write an email or whatever, is that you're
not then going to enter into correspondence. That's right, You've
(43:40):
provided your side of the story.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah. I mean as for the woman who has been ghosted,
I mean, that is a horrible thing to happen, and
I think they're entitled to email and say, look, either
I did something or something wasn't working for you. All
all I need is an explanation. You know, I'm not
looking to be friends again. You know I'm adult enough
(44:03):
to know that that's not what you want. But I
would just really like to know. I mean, that's that's allowed.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Also, I think that's reasonable to it. Well, it's not
that you deserve an explanation, but it's that that will
at least give you something.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, concrete, to kind of comfort yourself with.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yes, otherwise you can spin off. Yeah, I've got one
about a sibling. How to stop my brother. This is
full of the story behind this message must be fantastic.
How to stop my brother being so soft and generous
with his adult kids. They are taking advantage of him.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Oh my god, in what we well obviously financially.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
But I wonder do you think, because you write so
brilliantly about siblings, do you think it's any of her business?
Speaker 1 (44:54):
That's the very phrase I was going to use, was
in what way is this any of her business? It isn't.
It absolutely isn't. You know? If he is compassmentous, it's
none of her business. He can give them you know,
the shirt off his back if he so chooses, if
he's sane, he can do what he likes.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
And do you think it's hard to stay out of
his siblings business.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
It's very, very hard. I mean people are very opinionated,
and people, Yeah, I suppose I speak for myself, like, yes,
I have opinions on everything. But having opinions and actually
deciding to interfere they're two different things. Have opinions all
you like, but no, when you're dealing with adults, unless
(45:42):
what they're doing is criminal or the signs of mental illness,
they can live their lives whatever weight they want, and
they can parent whatever weight they want. Just because it's
not the way we would choose to do it, it doesn't
give us any rights. And yeah, because I mean siblings
especially are very it's kind of weird. You think you
(46:06):
come from the same set of parents and you kind
of have learned the same way to parent, but you
don't know. You know, there's five people in my family.
You know we had five different sets of parents. Yes,
it's bizarre, but it's it's true. You know your parents
are at different stages with different children. And and just
(46:26):
because the woman who's written in has a different approach
what a brother is doing.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
It's not wrong, it's not wrong. And one last family one.
There were a few in here about daughters in law,
which I think is really sad.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
It is obviously difficult, but it is it, but it is,
you know, it's it always has been clearly.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
I think my new daughter in law doesn't like me.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Oh god.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
And I don't think I have done anything wrong. Oh lord,
I really feel for this person. Yes it's a short message,
but I don't think I have done anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
It's oh, it feels like.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
A chasing child.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
It does.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Have you seen in your family and your travels or
in your books even like a way that this relationship
like how what distance is the right amount of distance here?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
I don't know. I mean I'm lucky, Like my mother
in law is a lovely, lovely woman, and like yeah,
and like like as soon as I met her, I
saw how much she loved her son, and she could
have taken again me like because I don't have children,
but I understand that thing of like I love this
(47:49):
person and I don't want you to take them from me,
or I don't want you to be inferior to what
he deserves. I mean, there's so much weird stuff going on.
And then as a daughter in law, there's other fears
of like she disapproves of me, or she thinks I'm
(48:11):
not good enough for him, or she interferes too much,
or and it's it's awful because it's a forced relationship,
you know, like you wouldn't kind of decide to be
friends spontaneously, which you're obliged to be two people united
by the love of one person. And and some people
(48:35):
they just hit it off. They're just they're on the
same side. I just think for most people it's fear,
fear of being usurped or yes.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
It sometimes feels like for the mothers sometimes it feels
like this woman might have the power to take my
son away way, yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
Know, and that.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
It feels like a power thing that can be very
unhealthy if that's the way of viewing it, like one
of us has to be more.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Important or yes, I has to have that that yeah,
the upper hand.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yes. But then from the daughter in law's perspective, if
this woman is saying I don't think she likes me,
well does she have to like you? As in that
you would go and have you know, a coffee together
or whatever, or do you just have to be able
to coexist when necessary?
Speaker 1 (49:26):
God, I don't know. I mean personally speaking, I prefer
to be liked, like I want warm hugs and and
kind of so lovely to see you and that's come
around for dinner. Yeah, well no, actually no, I mean yeah,
or a line there for sure. No, I don't mean that.
But like I think, I think a separate relationship outside
(49:47):
of the sun isn't necessary. Yea, but it is kind
of horrible to feel, even on those family occasions, that
somebody is cold or withholding and you don't know why
when all you have been is friendly and welcoming. I
don't know. I would recommend that the woman has written
(50:08):
in just continues love bombs the daughter in law, right, yeah,
like why not? Maybe the daughter in law is feeling insecure,
maybe maybe she'll change. Maybe she's afraid of you. Maybe
she's afraid of you and she doesn't know what you know.
And a lot of the time we behave in ways
and we don't know what's driving us. But you don't know,
(50:31):
and I think there is no circumstance at the moment
you can kind of front up and say have I
done something to you like you can't, you know, so
kind of try and accept that it may not be comfortable,
but be the adult here and be kind, keep your
distance a little bit, let that. Let it be like
(50:51):
a little wounded bird. Give her, give her kind of space,
the daughter in law to kind of find her feet
within the dynamic. And and maybe when she realizes that
you're not going to, you know, gather the son up
under your arm and run off with them, maybe she
relax a bit. Yeah. Yeah, so kind of start by
(51:13):
being the bigger person and and give it I don't know,
I don't know how much time, you know, six months,
a year, and then if she hasn't warmed up by then,
then don't bother. Yeah yeah, nothing, nothing, nothing at all.
I'm kind of joking about that. Yeah, be a be
(51:33):
as kind as you can for as long as you can.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
And then but as you say, we're not perfect.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
We're not perfect, and we cannot be perfect, and we
try our best, and some days our best is pretty poor.
And I speak for myself marrying Keith.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Thank you. I don't think Tara Flynn needs to worry
about them. Wonderful now you're asking, but I so appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
You were lovely.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Thank you, yes, but I so appreciate you answering our
listeners questions.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
It was an honor.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Thank you, and thank you so much for writing another
wonderful book, all the wonderful books. I really appreciate it,
so thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
It's my absolute pleasure. Holly, thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
It's been a joy. How good was that now? It
was such a delight. And of course, if you want
to know more about Marian read her books all those things.
There are links in the show notes. But if you
want to hear another conversation with an incredible author, please
(52:32):
scroll back in your feed and find my conversations with
Leanne Moriadi or with Jane Tara right here on MID.
If you have a dilemma that you would like us
to tackle on mid, we would like to do that
for you, and we've got an address week and send them.
It's helped me at mamamea dot com dot au. And
if you send us any dilemmas there, who knows who
(52:54):
might answer them with me for you. We didn't necessarily
know maryan Keyth was going to do that, but she
certainly did. Thank you. For being with us here on
mid We have loved it. I would love you to
be here with us next week too, for the final
episode of this current season. The executive of this episode
his name A Brown. The producer is Charlie Blackman, and
we've had audio production from Jacob Brown. And a massive
(53:16):
thanks to all of them and to you. See you
next week.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. I don't think my
daughter in law likes me. I'm not sure what it
is I've done wrong. My team thinks that I'm their therapist.
I can't lose weight no matter what I do. My
best friend ghosted me and my heart is broken. My
(00:37):
hairdresser's highlights have failed. My husband doesn't understand my perry phase.
I'm never good enough for my mother in law. I'm
lonely help. I don't want to go to my best
friend's baby shower because for me, the IVF just won't work.
Behind every problem, every question, a story, a small hurt
(01:00):
or a big one, a betrayal. We can't admit to
someone who's done us wrong. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright and
I am mid midlife, midfamily, midfix. Today we are solving problems,
your problems like the ones you just heard. And when
(01:22):
I say we, I mean we, because sitting beside me
today to talk through your troubles is a hero of mine.
One Marian Keys. Marian says that she started writing books
four thousand years ago but actually it was only thirty
years ago. I bet that you have read at least
(01:45):
one Maryan Keys, and if you've read one, you've probably
read I don't know fifteen. Her first Watermelon, was published
in nineteen ninety five, and ever since, the way she
spins up the sticky themes of our real lives with
wicked humor and big dollops of heart and irish wit
have made her both incredibly successful and beloved. She has
(02:08):
written twenty four books now and sold more than there
are zeros to count. And not only is this woman
one of the most successful novelists of her generation. Not
only has she shared her hilarious natural storytelling with the world,
but she's also shared herself. Because Marian has written about
depression and alcoholism and loss, and these are things that
(02:30):
she has lived as well as written. And if you,
like me, are just a little bit obsessed with Mary Keys,
you'll know there's something else she does too. A podcast
of her own for the BBC called Now You're Asking
with fellow writer and great friend Tara Flynn, and on
that they answer listener's questions with as much heart as expertise.
(02:51):
So when Marian was in Sydney, recently for an event
to celebrate her lady's book, My Favorite Mistake, which I
was lucky enough to host for her. I couldn't resist
asking her to come and tell me how things are going,
update me on the world and on the Walshisters, who
she's written so many books about that you love, and
also to help us with some of those sticky mid
(03:13):
questions of yours. Come sit with us and let solve
some problems. Marian, thank you so much for being here
with me today.
Speaker 1 (03:21):
Thank you for having me.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
I know that all the mid audience are going to
be so excited that you're here. We were talking of
Mike about how you've had a couple of chats with
me here before on No Filter, and I'm going to
put the links to those episodes in the show notes
on this so people can go back and listen to
those two. Thank you, because selfishly, I really want to
talk to you about My Favorite Mistake.
Speaker 1 (03:42):
Thanks. That's not selfish at.
Speaker 2 (03:43):
All, because it's a Welsh family book. Yes am I
right in that this is the eighth, it's.
Speaker 1 (03:51):
The seventh, but they're all standalones, right in case anyone
is worried.
Speaker 2 (03:55):
No you don't, Yeah, you don't have to have read
no but that feature the same family they do. And
so although they don't, although they're all standalones, the thing
that's glorious is obviously the characters are all grown up
now like us. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
Yeah, I've been about them for thirty years, and I
was thirty one, I think when I got started. So yeah,
as I've aged, they've aged.
Speaker 2 (04:18):
And it's I think there's so much, particularly in this
book that's wonderful about Anna and this phase of life
that a lot of our listeners are in.
Speaker 1 (04:27):
Yeah, Anna's forty eight and is invisible to young men
on the street. She walks through a pile of them.
They just refuse to make room for her, and she
just barrels through them out of rage and just the
fact that they have no manners. And yeah, she's going
(04:47):
through menopause. She's like genuinely burnt out on a very
stressful job. She's had a long relationship that has kind
of run its course, and she doesn't see any point
in hanging around trying to resuscitate it. And she kind
of throws her entire life up in the air and
(05:08):
waits to see where things will land. And she's angry
and she's hopeful, and she feels still entitled to love
and to sex and to live in whatever way she
feels like living. And I've seen that, like I'm older
(05:29):
than that, I'm sixty one, but I've seen it so
much in women in their late forties and fifties and older.
I've just deciding, I've still got like decades of life
ahead of me, and I don't really enjoy I'm not
getting the same kind of enjoyment out of my life
as I have been for the last twenty thirty whatever years,
And I just want to try living in a different way,
(05:51):
and I love to see it happen, like in big
ways in small ways, like last year, I took a
lot of time off work and I went back to
college and I did a course just something that I
had always wanted to do and never really felt that
it was the right time to do it. But I've
seen people but like leave marriages or you know, or
(06:12):
just take breaks from their marriage or just leave their
job and decide that they will live very frugally for
a while until they figure out what they want or
can do next. You know, there's a feeling that like
life is for living, and it is not infinite.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
Yeah, it's not infinite. But also it's not done before
it's done.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Oh god, absolutely not for as long as we're alive.
We're alive.
Speaker 2 (06:45):
Yes, I love that you've just said that about this,
because this is exactly obviously, which was your intention, what
I got from Anna. So when we meet her at
the beginning of the book, she's in New York, where
she's been for a long time, and as she says,
she's burnt out and she's been through COVID. So and
then what I love is that when she decides she's
going to move home, and obviously we're not going to
(07:06):
do spoilers, but that's pretty much in the book. Are
a bit like really, and it made me think about,
you know, when you're making those big changes in your
life that a lot of people do this stage. Often
the people around.
Speaker 1 (07:18):
You, they don't celebrate it. They really don't. It's not
like a movie like, it's really not there. You don't
get applauded. I mean, in Anna's particular case, she works,
she does pr for like a load of skincare brands,
so her sisters and her mother's and her mother are
used to getting free stuff. And now that she's giving
up her job. They won't be getting any more free stuff.
(07:41):
And it is really funny when something people can be
happy for you in the abstract, but if it impacts
you negatively, then people stop being happy for you. It's
very It's just people are complicated, and you know, people
are always going to kind of react from their own
their own needs, are their own wants. So no, her
(08:03):
mother and sisters are really really disappointed and afraid.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
Yes I'm afraid for her, but also for them how
it impacts them, because as you say, I think that,
as you say that, people are ready to applaud you
unless it impacts them or be it makes them wonder
about their lives.
Speaker 1 (08:19):
Oh that's another thing. Yes, that's another thing. Yes, if
somebody comes to you and says, you know, I'm leaving
my husband of whatever number of years, and say, until
this point you have always thought he was fine, a
bit boring, but actually really quite boring. But he was okay.
But then when one person starts leaving their husband, it
(08:41):
kind of makes one question your own circumstances and thinking, well,
should I be leaving mine? Or or actually mine is
less than optimal. You know, you kind of start wondering
at what point does less than optimal become unsustainable, you know,
or like if somebody else says, actually, I've decided to
(09:02):
stop drinking. You know, I actually think I kind of
have an issue with it, and I'm stopping People who
might have talked behind your back, you know, about how
bad you're drinking was up to this point, might suddenly
think Jesus Christ, know you're fine. You're fine. No, really,
you're fine. You just overdo it like at birthdays or whatever,
But you're fine. Because once people, once one person kind
(09:24):
of changes their life, it makes the people around them
start looking at their own lives and thinking, should I
be changing in mind? Do I need changing or fixing?
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Did your family think that feel like that when you
went did your course last year?
Speaker 1 (09:39):
Why is Marian going back to college?
Speaker 2 (09:41):
No?
Speaker 1 (09:41):
Actually no, they were fairly happy for me. The funny
thing is, like I studied law like eight million years ago.
I have a law degree. But one of the women
that I went through university with, she also went back
to college last year to study fashion. Like, you know,
we're in our sixties and I kind of, you know,
(10:04):
it's much harder to learn new things at this age.
But you can still do it.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
Yes, it's still.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Possible, and why not. Yeah, it's so exciting. Yes, when
you've always been curious about something but the door has
been blocked to you for whatever reason, and suddenly somebody
is saying, come in, I'll deconstruct it for you.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
What cost did you go back to?
Speaker 1 (10:24):
You need to do interior design? Yeah, Like, I've always
loved color and fabric, and as it turned out, it
wasn't really about that. It was about more fundamentals. Like
I know this sounds pathetic, but I am really good
at measuring things now, like and I have a lovely
eight meter long yellow metal measuring tape that my husband
(10:47):
bought me, which honestly is one of my most favorite
things ever. Yeah, so I'm kind of good at the
technical stuff. And then I had taken enough time off work,
so you know, I've I've parked it for the moment.
Speaker 2 (10:58):
So have you been putting that to you? So you
let doing your house? I am need to love it.
I love it. Yes, Yeah, I am your style. I
know nothing about interior design, right, but I know that broadly,
there's like minimalism, and there's like shabby she and there's
gold toilets. I don't know what's your style.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
It's sort of girly gothic girl. Yeah, like I bought
an antique wooden carved bed from Portugal, and yeah, kind
of a lot of black and purple colored wallpapers. It's
and green glass. It's the spare bedroom. I want people
to come in and feel sort of mildly uneasy, you know,
(11:38):
that they're kind of happy to stay for a night,
but maybe not for much longer.
Speaker 2 (11:42):
God, that's perfection. It's great. So what I loved about
Anna and the other wallh sisters, but in this book,
so you nail. And it's not surprising, of course, these
particular midlife moments, like before she decides because she's, as
you said, she's going through perimenopause and menopause, and before
she does get into the HRT, she tries looming for
(12:04):
a while. She's you know, and which I think is
so common, is that lots of so like, what's happening
to me? Yes, I need to find a way to
man regulate myself. Maybe gardening is my cliched answer. Maybe
you know, looming or whatever, scrap booking or what those
kind of things.
Speaker 1 (12:21):
Yeah, upcycling furniture, yes, that was mine for a while.
Speaker 2 (12:25):
Yes, So we grab onto these things and then finally
we're like, okay, something really is happening. Yeah, and Anna,
like very many women, including myself, then she's on an
almost comic but serious quest for our HRT. The doctors
don't want to give it to her. It's out of
stock at the chemists. We've all been there.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
Yeah, I mean, it's bizarre, like half of the world's
population go through this and have done since the dawn
of time, and like, why has it never been spoken
about when it is Okay, some people breeze through it,
and fair play to them, lucky them, but I don't
want to hear from them, thank you very much, because
for an awful lot of people, it's incredibly debilitating, because
(13:06):
it's like adolescence in reverse, and like we can see
now as adults how awful it is for teenagers, like
the terror, the change of the moods. They can't regulate,
the changes in their body, the changes in their identity
and sense of self. And that's what menopause is, its
adolescence in reverse, and for an awful lot of people
(13:29):
it's very, very frightening, and like for me, it wasn't
so much the hairiness and the hot flushes. It was
the anxiety, And it was like forgetting people's names, Like
when that first began to happen, like I thought I
was getting dementia, and there was no one there to say, oh,
that's probably part of the menopause. That's probably you know,
(13:52):
you're depleted in estrogen or whatever.
Speaker 3 (13:55):
Like.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
There hasn't been a road map given to us, Like
there has been just complete silence about all the possible
ways that it can affect us.
Speaker 2 (14:06):
I think that's one of the things that's so good
about this book is that, as we were saying before,
it's your characters have aged as we've aged, and we
are seeing these issues being explored in all kinds of
different accessible ways now, including in our favorite fictional people.
But before I get onto one of the things that
I love the most about Anna, which is that she
still wants to have sex and fall in love, I
(14:26):
just have to tell you that one of the things
I'm not sure which one of your characters mentions is,
but they say that a podcast about murders committed by
menopausal women against man's plaining men. I was like, that's
a solid idea.
Speaker 1 (14:39):
That's a great idea.
Speaker 2 (14:40):
When you're done with now you're asking this is your
ex podcast women who have been wrongly convicted.
Speaker 1 (14:48):
It wasn't their fault. They were pushed beyond human endurance. Yeah,
that we need that.
Speaker 2 (14:55):
Yes, after this shortbreak, more from the very funny Marrying
Keys on sex and desire and so much more. One
of the things that is most common that a lot
of women feel as they get all that, as you've
mentioned already, is invisible and we are often written or
perceived as being these sort of either just hypernurturers or
(15:20):
just sort of bland and self sacrificing. But Anna is
a properly layed person and she has when she does
sort of restart her life again in this small town,
she has options when it comes to love and sex.
And I love the way you wrote that. Were you
intentional about wanting to explore that for women in that
(15:42):
of this age?
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I suppose I was, because I mean, I really dislike
the mythology around women and sex. You know, is that
you know is that women actually don't like sex at all,
and that it's merely transactional, that like, women will only
have sex in order to get their grass cut or
to have shelves puts off. Yes, you know that it's
only ever given. You know that it's never joyful or
(16:07):
like or lost for or you know that women aren't
allowed to be horny or or are loving. Yes, you
know that it's always given kind of in a mean
spirited way.
Speaker 2 (16:20):
It's a weapon or a yes, or something to be
swapped for something else. Commitment.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah, exactly, exactly, And like you know, I know a
lot of women. We all do, probably, and we all
have different attitudes to sex at different points of our lives.
And the worst myth of all is that like women
shut up shop entirely at forty because that's not what
(16:45):
I see and some people do. And again, I really
mean this with love. If that's how it is for you,
if you feel, you know, you just don't want it,
you're dead from the neck down and you and your
partner are happy, that's wonderful. But like I don't, not
every woman I know feels like that. Far from it.
(17:06):
And you know, people have kind of happy sex within
a really relationship, or people have various flings, or people
just they're not committed to anyone and they're having joyful,
happy sex. And yeah, I just wanted to show that
there are many ways to be a woman after forty
(17:27):
and that an awful lot of us are still having sex.
And you know, and again, it's not something that kind
of travels in a straight line. The desire comes and
goes all depending on your life circumstances, how what your
body is doing, you know, how your workload is, how
(17:47):
stressed you're feeling or not feeling, how resentful or not
that you're feeling. You know, it's something that's in flux.
It's not a fixed part of our identity, and it's
something that can always be picked up again. You can
go through long spells of thinking that's gone forever, yeah,
and then it can come back.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Which I think is reflected in this because obviously Anna's
reflecting on different bits of her life, and there's the
kind of section you might have when you're young, other
way you feel about somebody at that time, and then
there are periods of your life when you're like, I
wonder if I'm ever going to feel like that again,
And Anna's kind of feeling like that because she's been
with this lovely, sensitive guy, and then the stirring for
the bad boy kind of comes back, and I just
(18:27):
what I just like about all that is it's just
very human, which is what we all are, rather than
it being like midlife ladies.
Speaker 1 (18:35):
Yeah, don't do any of that or any of them. Yeah, no,
I mean, and like in many ways, like Anna is
a lot more mature than she used to be, and
she knows that this bad boy well was a bad boy,
and that there's an awful lot of kind of potential
heartbreak from going down their road.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
But she's still self protected.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, would she still fancies something. And I love that
for her because people still fancy each other like that
doesn't seem to stop, or people still get crushes on
people that doesn't stop, or people still fall in love.
I just think you know that thing that like young
people think that they invented sex. Yeah, they really do.
(19:14):
Mean in no disrespect, I was young myself once, But
that kind of giddy butterflies in your stomach feeling, there's
always potential for that, which is beautiful. It's lovely, isn't it?
Is it?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
I just ask you one more thing about the Welsh
family before I get I ask you nicely to answer
some of our listeners questions. Is it lovely to spend
time with them again if you're writing, you know, as
you said, this is your seventh book about them, and
I know that your audience loves it when you write
about them and they welcome them back like old friends.
(19:45):
Is that what it feels like to you?
Speaker 1 (19:47):
Yeah? I mean I'd never intended to write a sequel.
I'd given each of the five sisters their book, yes,
and the last one was in twenty twelve, and then
through the pandemic, I decided to return to Rachel. And
it was so lovely because I couldn't see my own
family during lockdown, and it did feel like I had well,
I certainly had the same They have the same energy
the Watches as my family, that kind of noisy, opinionated.
Speaker 2 (20:10):
Funny, funny, funny.
Speaker 1 (20:12):
It was lovely. And then I was going to write
a very different book after again Rachel, and I thought, no,
I'm just I prefer to stay in a happy place
for a while, so I stayed with that. Then I
was all set to do a third sequel, but my
editor said yet, really, yeah, she did, that's enough Watches
for a while, she said, So I'm writing something different,
but they do it feels it just feels very familiar
(20:34):
and fun and war and safe. That's what it feels.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Yeah, right, and they almost live alongside you and they
are I don't know if you're allowed to talk about this. Yes,
I yeah, you are, Yes, yes, yes, because the TV series, Yes,
the Walsh Systems.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
Yes, the first The first series has wrapped the BBC,
the BBC. It's coming to Australia on Stan. Yeah, it's
going to be out in November, I think in the
Northern Hemisphere. I don't know when it will be here.
Speaker 2 (20:58):
Have you been involved?
Speaker 1 (21:00):
Well, I'm called an executive producer. I don't know what
that means.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I mean what says who I work with? Her book
has been turned in and she's she says, I'm the
executive producer. But yeah, I have no idea.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, yeah, I have no idea and I think I
have no rights either, But it doesn't matter. They're ask
me small things like would Maggie wear disengagement ring and
stuff like that, which I love being asked. And you know,
I was allowed on set, like I was allowed off
her opinions.
Speaker 2 (21:26):
I didn't like to see them come to Lifeline.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
It was so beautiful. I've lived with them for thirty
years and my husband and I went to the set
together and we don't have children, and we wanted children.
And I don't know if this is part of it,
but like we arrived and this woman was strutting along
and like she had amazing blonde highlights in her hair,
(21:48):
and she had like gold rimmed sunglasses, and she was
just really glamorous and fabulous, and I thought, that's Claire.
And then there's another one and she's her hair is
sort of in a mullet, and there's something slightly off
about her. Her jeans are slightly too short, she's got
like her hands bunched into fists in her pockets, and
she's kind of just just very dissatisfied with the world.
(22:08):
And that was Helen, and it was it was so
weird to see these people that I recognized by their
clothes and their body language.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
It must have been well done, yeah, because it must
have been very beautifully produced because they've done.
Speaker 1 (22:23):
Such a lovely job. They really have. You know, it
was fairly low budget, but you would never know how
it was made with so much love. It's beautiful.
Speaker 2 (22:35):
I think people are going to be very.
Speaker 1 (22:37):
It's very uplifting and it's very kind of Yeah, it's
very loving.
Speaker 2 (22:41):
Actually, just because of what you just said about you
and your husband going to set and you hadn't had kids.
One of the other things I love about Anna in
this book is the other thing that's that comes through
is the choices that all the sisters have made, or
choices that weren't even choices, things that have happened to them.
Is the making peace with things, like holding on to
some of the sadnesses that are always going to be there.
(23:03):
It's just very well rounded, like it's just that's what
life's like, like a loss, doesn't you know, Anna lost
had a terrible loss in her husband. But it doesn't
mean that everything's funny there. I think you are masterful
of that complexity.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
Thank you so much, Holly. Yeah. I mean, nobody gets
through life without something, you know, one of those huge,
painful things that are only meant to happen to other people.
It happens to us all, even if it's something as banal.
I hope that word isn't offensive, but like, you know,
to lose a parent, you know, it's so it happens
(23:40):
to everyone, but it's so huge and so shocking, and
the idea of getting over something I don't really think
of it in those terms anymore. But I live alongside
things and I don't, and the volume of loss gets
dialed down, and then there are days when it can
(24:01):
be suddenly very loud again, and that's okay, It's all okay.
I don't think anything ever really goes way. It stays
on file, and it can be resuscitated under certain circumstances.
But we've survived it this far. We are more resilient
than we know. Somebody said that to me recently. And
(24:21):
often we don't know how resilient we are until we're
in the circumstances that need the resilience. But we are.
I know this sounds really trite, but we are stronger
than we know we are. And yeah, just because we
have survived the loss doesn't mean that it will never
(24:41):
be painful against you know, the pain will come back,
and then it will recede and we'll still be here.
Speaker 2 (24:47):
Marian. One more thing on aging, so physical aging, as
in how we look, because physical aging means all kinds
of things, of course, but how we look is something
that also gets touched on quite a bit in here.
I love that Anna is when she gets to this
small town Nile and she is finding that way to
get the boatox pretty quickly, which is great. But I
love this paragraph that you wrote about Anna's view of
(25:08):
what was matt hat and old because she'd been living
in New York for a long time and then she
goes back to Ireland and can I just read to
you this little bit?
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Thank you please?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Yeah? She said, this is a warning against being a
person who tends towards optimism. I hadn't thought of myself
as middle aged, never mind old. I think that's something
that we all feel at that point. You could blame
my mindset on Manhattan, where once you hit forty, aging
no longer happened, or rather, an elaborate protocol was used
(25:38):
to blur the evidence, including but not limited to restaalin, retinol,
hit yoga, hair bowtox, hair botox, edible collagen, low carving,
no carving, intermittent fasting, be twelve injections, and wearing trainers
and dimante canes to black tie garlands. This seemed to
work efficiently until maybe the age of ninety two, where
your hit broke unexpectedly while you were opening the fridge,
(26:01):
and then a conversation had to be had. Now, Anna
says that because she'd done spin classes four times a week,
and she had the stressful job that stopped her remaining,
and she was doing botox and fillers and all the things.
She thought she could pass for a woman much younger
than her, but she realized that she was just Manhattan.
Speaker 1 (26:18):
All. Yeah, she was like masking the evidence. Yeah, because
it is a thing, because I have botox and you know,
and I kind of I'm at my face with various things,
you know, But then my feet are gone to the dogs,
Like I have a Bonian. They're painful, you know, and
it's like that's not meant to happen, you know, Like
(26:38):
and like I still run, but like I'm in bits.
You know. There's something kind of going on with my
left arm. And it's really strange when your body starts
letting you down in those kind of ways.
Speaker 2 (26:52):
Do you think, though, that we have maybe decided that
aging is a choice. You can face it off. Yeah.
Resources exactly, enough resources and the right like peer group
who can hook you up with all the rare things
that we think it's a choice. And that's why it's
almost more shock when you have asked, starts doing something
funny and refuses to go away.
Speaker 1 (27:13):
Yeah, that it's a choice and sort of an obligation almost,
and that if if anything goes wrong, it's your own fault.
You could have prevented that if you had done X,
Y or Z and then protein. Yeah, but actually no,
I cannot hold back, you know, time, and then that's
(27:36):
a bit kind of can't I. This is very disappointing,
you know, with all the things I was doing and
they still weren't enough. Yeah, it's funny because we are
living so much longer, but we are not remaining in
perky twenty seven year old style help till the age
of one hundred and twelve, you know that. Yeah, we are. Actually,
(27:59):
the d L joints aren't great, and these things happen,
and it's a surprise.
Speaker 2 (28:05):
It is a surprise. Don't go anywhere, because when you
come back, we're getting to your questions. Yes, yours, mid listeners,
you sent them to me, and now Marian and I
are going to talk them over, and her answers are
very marrying keys in the best possible way back in
a tick. My other Maryan Keys related obsession is your
(28:31):
podcast with Tara Flynn, My beloved Tara, My goodness, you
two on that show. I shouldn't be promoting other podcasts
on my podcast just Rude, But now you're asking is
a joy, and I bet there are so many MID
listeners who listen to it. So you answer listener questions, Yeah,
you and Tara all kinds of things, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Like funny, serious, dark, not dark.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
It's one of my favorite comfort listens. I just love
listening to you. So when I knew you were going
to come on MID, I said, do you think that
we could ask some of our listeners. I would be
honored because I think they would love us to talk
through some of their Sure, we might have to put
a bit of color around some of these because I
asked them on social media and the box where they
(29:13):
put their problems quite small. Okay, we've got really good,
succinct problems. We may have to color in some context.
I'm going to start with actually my favorite of all
the problems. Okay, I got this is a very good
problem to have from one of our middle listeners who says,
I want to spend three months in Italy next year
with my bestie but no husbands.
Speaker 3 (29:36):
How do we tell the husbands? Okay, this is fantastic,
good problem. This is it's a great problem. And it's
also it's very zeitgeist.
Speaker 1 (29:48):
Yeah, you know, isn't it Like it's hard to know
what age they are.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
So I think I think we can assume that most
of these listeners are over fourteen, not necessarily, but let's
say broadly like forty.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Yeah, okay, all right, so grown up as I them. Yes, yes, yes, yes, okay.
I mean I think it's a fabulous thing to do,
and I think the way to do it is to
present it as a huge positive. You know, I've had
this great idea, you know, and maybe there's something the
(30:24):
husband has always wanted to do. There probably is. There's
always there are always dreams that we've never had a
chance to fulfill. And to present it as you can
go and I don't know, walk the Camino, or or
do a tour of all the great football grounds of Europe.
Speaker 2 (30:47):
Or oh you could stay high home, peace and quiet.
Speaker 1 (30:50):
For three months.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
Yes, yeah, I wonder if I would maybe, but this
might spoil the whole thing. But I might say we
could meet up in the middle or something for a while.
Speaker 1 (31:04):
Well, I would present that in vague terms. Maybe we
could even and meet up, yeah, you know, somewhere if
her past across. I mean, probably kind of quite new
at the end, but you know, never finish the sentence,
you know, just kind of throw it into the mix,
but never actually wild it down. And the thing is,
I think people are more emotionally literate than they used
(31:25):
to be, you know, and that it would be easy
to say to the person because Okay, if I was
the person being left at home or being told tour
the football grounds, I might feel kind of rejected. Or
is this the first part of a kind of a
you know, a divorcing or whatever, you know, for somebody
to be honest with you and say, I'm mad about you.
(31:45):
You know, you're my best friend, Like I want us
to grow older together, but I want to do this
with my friend and only with her. You know, the
dynamic would be completely different if you came with us.
You know, you are a good man. You're an intelligent person.
Please try and understand that. Even if he isn't a
good intelligent man, say it anyway, you know, kind of
(32:07):
lead with the positive, you know, yes, say and like
you could go and hang out with your brother or
the guys, or you know, you could just you know, yeah,
and then at three months, after three months, I'll come
back and I can show you. I don't know, I
can do a slide show whatever. Yeah, yeah, yes, yeah,
(32:28):
Like I really think the thing is right. We get
one life, you know, and if you don't ask, you
don't get And.
Speaker 2 (32:38):
This might be your moment to say this, right, yes.
Speaker 1 (32:41):
Yeah, And like if you kind of anticipate how the
other person will be feeling when you when you ask,
stroke tell them, you know, try and meet their fears
and their insecurities head on and and ask them to
trust you. You know that you've been together for eight years,
(33:01):
fifteen years already, and that you're going anyway. Yeah, because
they because once you've kind have forged that plan and
been brave enough to ask. If you're told no, that's
going to damageationship anyway.
Speaker 2 (33:20):
That we could maybe come back from that, but it
will always the resentment there.
Speaker 1 (33:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (33:25):
I think you're right. So I don't think it's an
ass yea.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Three months out of eighty years or however long we're
living these days.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
Yes, yeah, not bad. Okay, this one is a little
more serious. My husband is sixteen years older. It's been
perfect for decades, decades okay her many, but now he's
an old man. In mind, body, and spirit.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Oh dear, Oh, this is so sad. Sad, that is so.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
But this is this is a thing that age differences,
which you know, very common and happen all the time,
and no big deal. Sometimes they shift as you age,
right in whichever direction. I mean, that's obvious. I suppose
that they shifted you age. But it isn't a problem.
It isn't a problem. It is a problem. And suddenly
it's odd.
Speaker 1 (34:10):
Yeah, yeah, suddenly, and forgive my language, but kind of
suddenly the older partner falls over a cliff in terms
of the aging process. You know, for a long time,
they're they're they're great for their age, and then we
can't outrun the process, not forever, and like people age differently,
(34:34):
And this is incredibly sad. And for the listener who
has written in, first of all, you have my my
acute sympathy because you've lost the man you love and
that now you're having to caretake in a way that
perhaps you had never anticipated. Because you know, when we
(34:56):
know somebody at their their most vital and vibrant and
strong and healthy, it's kind of impossible to imagine them
being properly old until it happens and I mean, in
practical terms, I would ask you to get as much
support as possible. If you have children, if you have
(35:18):
extended family, you know, if their home helps, like we
have them in Ireland. You know, get as many people
as who can, who can help, you know, pick up
the practical slack. But then also spend time with your
husband and you know, remember them sorry. You know what,
(35:45):
it's kind of very hard to be kind to people
when they let us down, when they let us down
by getting sick or aging. I know it's a really
kind of selfish response, but it's human, But I be kind.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
Do you think do you think that this part, as
she says when she says help, this part is going
to be hard, right, this part is going to be hard.
But the decades that you've had that are perfect, maybe
this is payback.
Speaker 1 (36:14):
I mean, that's an awful kind of transaction the way
of looking at it. But it's I suppose it's a
fact and you were clearly very happy. You say it
at the start of your letter. You know, you were
very happy, And that's still possible, not all the time,
like things have definitely changed, but it's still it's still there.
(36:36):
But to also find a way to grieve separately. Okay,
that sounds very selfish. Okay, enjoy what you can of
what remains of the man you married, and at the
same time find a way to grieve. See a counselor,
(36:57):
I don't know, some sort of spiritual practice, maybe like meditation,
anything that helps kind of you to live with the
pain of this. Do it and get as much practical
help as you can. And I wish you so.
Speaker 2 (37:10):
Wells Absolutely, it's it's a lot to be able to
say that out loud, even I think friendships. So many
questions about friendships.
Speaker 1 (37:20):
Mary, Isn't it bizarre? It's the most the most taboo relationship.
It's so rarely openly discussed female friendships.
Speaker 2 (37:29):
It's true. So I've got a couple about friendships, but
this is a good one because it's about how to
put a boundary in place, basically. And I think you
I've heard you talk about this before. This woman says,
I've got a high school friend I see twice a year,
once on my birthday and once on hers. I've come
to hate these birthday dinners. It's forced, and we have
nothing in common. And if I talk about enjoying work
(37:51):
or my kids doing well, she gets annoyed, suggests, I
guess that she doesn't feel that way. How do I
stop these birthday dinners? I get so anxious when they
come around, But I don't want to hurt her.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
Oh my god, who doesn't who doesn't sympathize and identify
FI with this? Oh? And I feel so bad for
the letter writer because, yeah, like the remnants of the
kind of the friendship that was once there that makes
you not want to hurt them. I mean, there are
two there are three things you can do. One is
(38:25):
you carry on as you are. Please don't like, please
don't like, please please please don't.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Your birthday is kind of important to yeah, feeling anxious
about this event you don't want to.
Speaker 1 (38:35):
And also to be seeing a person who kind of
doesn't celebrate your successes and joys, like, don't do that
to yourself, like, please don't. Life is far shorter than
we realize. I mean, if you add up all those birthdays,
how many months of your life have you spent in
the company of a person who doesn't celebrate your happiness? Okay,
(38:57):
so you could continue doing it, but I'm begging you
not to. You could say, I mean, people have done
this you know, you could say it's really not working
for me anymore. You know, I wish you well, I
really sincerely do, but we won't be friends going forward.
Isn't it very funny? Like you could say that to
(39:17):
a boyfriend or a husband or something. You could say,
you know, I have loved you and I don't love
you anymore, and our lives will be separate from now on.
And people might be upset, but they wouldn't think it
was odd.
Speaker 2 (39:30):
No, and they're not say now I don't think so. Well, no,
they might.
Speaker 1 (39:34):
They might, but but you can stand your ground. Or
you could do the gentle slip, which is so around
the time of your birthday. You could be very busy.
You could have gone away, somebody took you away for
a weekend in such a place. And then I know
(39:55):
this is awful, but could you have some sort of
ear infection? You know, maybe not actually diagnosed, but like
you know, you're not hearing so well and there's a
kind of blocked up feeling like you've been swimming and
you can't hear very well. A point and then let
a couple of texts go on, red, I've got this
brutal I know, you know.
Speaker 2 (40:16):
It's just tricky though, right because one of the other
ones I've got is that this person said that they
feel their good friend has ghosted them, is what we're
sort of almost suggesting here, and that they've said, I've
got no idea what I've done, and I can't stop
thinking about it now that that's like the other side
of this. But when you were saying before you could
say to them, you know, I don't love you anymore,
(40:38):
or you know, words that effect, the thought of doing that,
particularly face to face.
Speaker 1 (40:43):
Is horrific.
Speaker 2 (40:44):
It almost feels impossible climbing every yeah, jumping out of
a plane or something.
Speaker 1 (40:49):
Yeah, yeah, you think you got to email it? What
do you think? I mean, it's God, it's difficult. You know,
we can't be saints. Oh god, I mean it's hard
because who wants to cause pain to another person? But okay,
all right, if you felt and this doesn't come across,
(41:09):
if the woman who wrote in and felt that, like
this other woman is trilled to see her and it's
delighted to see her, and like it really like lifts
her up, and she loves here and all the news
and she's so happy for all the good things in
the letter writer's life, you'd feel, ah, for God's sake,
how much does it kill me to spend two and
a half hours in her company twice a year? That's
(41:30):
but if you're already getting if you're feeling undermined and
that you have nothing in common, a little brutality. See,
I would find this very very difficult, very very who
wouldn't I? And only a psychopath was literally only a psychopath.
Speaker 2 (41:47):
And this is why I think that maybe it is
a time when it is permitted to put it in writing,
all right, because I think that maybe because I know
what you mean about if it's only wants a year
two hours. But she says she feels anxious, and she
uses the word I've come to hate these dinners, So
that suggests she comes home feeling terrible. Yeah, And you know,
sometimes I think it's cruel when we might go home
(42:08):
and we might she might then bit about this woman
friends to our husband or two around for ages and
in a way that's not gravy either, No, it's not.
So maybe this is a time when you're allowed to
run email.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Yes, and to be and to write it with huge
love and pick the words yeah, and to not assign
any blame, but to say it's simply our lives have
gone in such different directions and I like blah blah blah,
(42:41):
and you like such and such, and I get pleasure
from this thing, and you're the things you love leave
me cold. And not even language like that, but just
just to kind of lovingly give reasons for yes, why
why there, why it is in no longer nourishing, it
(43:02):
no longer serves you in the in the therapy language. Yeah,
and just you know, to end with that, you know,
to wish them happiness and joy and peace and like
every good thing that they could have in their life
and detached with love.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I think. I think that's good because I also think
that to our other writer, the other lady who wrote
in and said I'd love some advice about being ghosted,
I have no idea what I've done, and I can't
stop thinking about it. I think that if you do,
if you write an email or whatever, is that you're
not then going to enter into correspondence. That's right, You've
(43:40):
provided your side of the story.
Speaker 1 (43:43):
Yeah. I mean as for the woman who has been ghosted,
I mean, that is a horrible thing to happen, and
I think they're entitled to email and say, look, either
I did something or something wasn't working for you. All
all I need is an explanation. You know, I'm not
looking to be friends again. You know I'm adult enough
(44:03):
to know that that's not what you want. But I
would just really like to know. I mean, that's that's allowed.
Speaker 2 (44:08):
Also, I think that's reasonable to it. Well, it's not
that you deserve an explanation, but it's that that will
at least give you something.
Speaker 1 (44:16):
Yeah, concrete, to kind of comfort yourself with.
Speaker 2 (44:19):
Yes, otherwise you can spin off. Yeah, I've got one
about a sibling. How to stop my brother. This is
full of the story behind this message must be fantastic.
How to stop my brother being so soft and generous
with his adult kids. They are taking advantage of him.
Speaker 1 (44:36):
Oh my god, in what we well obviously financially.
Speaker 2 (44:46):
But I wonder do you think, because you write so
brilliantly about siblings, do you think it's any of her business?
Speaker 1 (44:54):
That's the very phrase I was going to use, was
in what way is this any of her business? It isn't.
It absolutely isn't. You know? If he is compassmentous, it's
none of her business. He can give them you know,
the shirt off his back if he so chooses, if
he's sane, he can do what he likes.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
And do you think it's hard to stay out of
his siblings business.
Speaker 1 (45:21):
It's very, very hard. I mean people are very opinionated,
and people, Yeah, I suppose I speak for myself, like, yes,
I have opinions on everything. But having opinions and actually
deciding to interfere they're two different things. Have opinions all
you like, but no, when you're dealing with adults, unless
(45:42):
what they're doing is criminal or the signs of mental illness,
they can live their lives whatever weight they want, and
they can parent whatever weight they want. Just because it's
not the way we would choose to do it, it doesn't
give us any rights. And yeah, because I mean siblings
especially are very it's kind of weird. You think you
(46:06):
come from the same set of parents and you kind
of have learned the same way to parent, but you
don't know. You know, there's five people in my family.
You know we had five different sets of parents. Yes,
it's bizarre, but it's it's true. You know your parents
are at different stages with different children. And and just
(46:26):
because the woman who's written in has a different approach
what a brother is doing.
Speaker 2 (46:33):
It's not wrong, it's not wrong. And one last family one.
There were a few in here about daughters in law,
which I think is really sad.
Speaker 1 (46:42):
It is obviously difficult, but it is it, but it is,
you know, it's it always has been clearly.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
I think my new daughter in law doesn't like me.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
Oh god.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
And I don't think I have done anything wrong. Oh lord,
I really feel for this person. Yes it's a short message,
but I don't think I have done anything wrong.
Speaker 1 (47:09):
It's oh, it feels like.
Speaker 2 (47:11):
A chasing child.
Speaker 1 (47:13):
It does.
Speaker 2 (47:14):
Have you seen in your family and your travels or
in your books even like a way that this relationship
like how what distance is the right amount of distance here?
Speaker 1 (47:26):
I don't know. I mean I'm lucky, Like my mother
in law is a lovely, lovely woman, and like yeah,
and like like as soon as I met her, I
saw how much she loved her son, and she could
have taken again me like because I don't have children,
but I understand that thing of like I love this
(47:49):
person and I don't want you to take them from me,
or I don't want you to be inferior to what
he deserves. I mean, there's so much weird stuff going on.
And then as a daughter in law, there's other fears
of like she disapproves of me, or she thinks I'm
(48:11):
not good enough for him, or she interferes too much,
or and it's it's awful because it's a forced relationship,
you know, like you wouldn't kind of decide to be
friends spontaneously, which you're obliged to be two people united
by the love of one person. And and some people
(48:35):
they just hit it off. They're just they're on the
same side. I just think for most people it's fear,
fear of being usurped or yes.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
It sometimes feels like for the mothers sometimes it feels
like this woman might have the power to take my
son away way, yeah, you.
Speaker 3 (48:55):
Know, and that.
Speaker 2 (48:58):
It feels like a power thing that can be very
unhealthy if that's the way of viewing it, like one
of us has to be more.
Speaker 1 (49:03):
Important or yes, I has to have that that yeah,
the upper hand.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
Yes. But then from the daughter in law's perspective, if
this woman is saying I don't think she likes me,
well does she have to like you? As in that
you would go and have you know, a coffee together
or whatever, or do you just have to be able
to coexist when necessary?
Speaker 1 (49:26):
God, I don't know. I mean personally speaking, I prefer
to be liked, like I want warm hugs and and
kind of so lovely to see you and that's come
around for dinner. Yeah, well no, actually no, I mean yeah,
or a line there for sure. No, I don't mean that.
But like I think, I think a separate relationship outside
(49:47):
of the sun isn't necessary. Yea, but it is kind
of horrible to feel, even on those family occasions, that
somebody is cold or withholding and you don't know why
when all you have been is friendly and welcoming. I
don't know. I would recommend that the woman has written
(50:08):
in just continues love bombs the daughter in law, right, yeah,
like why not? Maybe the daughter in law is feeling insecure,
maybe maybe she'll change. Maybe she's afraid of you. Maybe
she's afraid of you and she doesn't know what you know.
And a lot of the time we behave in ways
and we don't know what's driving us. But you don't know,
(50:31):
and I think there is no circumstance at the moment
you can kind of front up and say have I
done something to you like you can't, you know, so
kind of try and accept that it may not be comfortable,
but be the adult here and be kind, keep your
distance a little bit, let that. Let it be like
(50:51):
a little wounded bird. Give her, give her kind of space,
the daughter in law to kind of find her feet
within the dynamic. And and maybe when she realizes that
you're not going to, you know, gather the son up
under your arm and run off with them, maybe she
relax a bit. Yeah. Yeah, so kind of start by
(51:13):
being the bigger person and and give it I don't know,
I don't know how much time, you know, six months,
a year, and then if she hasn't warmed up by then,
then don't bother. Yeah yeah, nothing, nothing, nothing at all.
I'm kind of joking about that. Yeah, be a be
(51:33):
as kind as you can for as long as you can.
Speaker 2 (51:35):
And then but as you say, we're not perfect.
Speaker 1 (51:37):
We're not perfect, and we cannot be perfect, and we
try our best, and some days our best is pretty poor.
And I speak for myself marrying Keith.
Speaker 2 (51:46):
Thank you. I don't think Tara Flynn needs to worry
about them. Wonderful now you're asking, but I so appreciate you.
Speaker 1 (51:53):
You were lovely.
Speaker 2 (51:54):
Thank you, yes, but I so appreciate you answering our
listeners questions.
Speaker 1 (51:58):
It was an honor.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Thank you, and thank you so much for writing another
wonderful book, all the wonderful books. I really appreciate it,
so thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (52:08):
It's my absolute pleasure. Holly, thank you so much for
having me.
Speaker 2 (52:12):
It's been a joy. How good was that now? It
was such a delight. And of course, if you want
to know more about Marian read her books all those things.
There are links in the show notes. But if you
want to hear another conversation with an incredible author, please
(52:32):
scroll back in your feed and find my conversations with
Leanne Moriadi or with Jane Tara right here on MID.
If you have a dilemma that you would like us
to tackle on mid, we would like to do that
for you, and we've got an address week and send them.
It's helped me at mamamea dot com dot au. And
if you send us any dilemmas there, who knows who
(52:54):
might answer them with me for you. We didn't necessarily
know maryan Keyth was going to do that, but she
certainly did. Thank you. For being with us here on
mid We have loved it. I would love you to
be here with us next week too, for the final
episode of this current season. The executive of this episode
his name A Brown. The producer is Charlie Blackman, and
we've had audio production from Jacob Brown. And a massive
(53:16):
thanks to all of them and to you. See you
next week.
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