March 10, 2025 • 43 mins
Faith Agugu always imagined she would be a mother. But at 45, after many, many detours, she decided it was time to recognise the reality that wasn't going to happen, and almost immediately everything changed for her.
Faith wants us to make peace with the lives we're living and the ones we didn't quite get to live. In fact, she wants us live in a pro-ageing world. She knows it exists, because it's where she was born, into a culture where everyone wanted to be the oldest person in the room. They were the respected ones, the wise ones, the ones with status.
Faith lived in Nigeria until she was 9, then in Britain and now in Australia. She says that through her work as a psychotherapist, and founder of advocacy group Silver Sirens, ageing-anxiety is ruining our mental health. And it's fair to say, she has some ideas about how to deal with that.
This conversation is a big exhale. Like taking off your bra, it's about making peace with the changes age brings, and the surprises, and the shit bits too.
Enjoy this episode of MID with the excellent Faith Agugu.
You can learn more about Faith's community, Silver Sirens, here
You can follow Silver Sirens on Instagram.
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CREDITS:
Host: Holly Wainwright
Executive Producer: Naima Brown
Senior Producer: Grace Rouvray
Producer: Tahli Blackman
Audio Producer: Jacob Round
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. Who will look after
you when you're old? What's wrong with you? How will
you ever understand unconditional love? So selfish? So sad? There
are many things the world has got better at when
(00:34):
it comes to women being able to live their lives.
However they choose. No need to hand in your work
security pass when a ring goes on the finger, No
need to get a man to sign that loan application,
that voting form, that credit card. You'll be tolerated for
not marrying the first person who asks. You can run
for office, and you can drive your car, and you
can buy your own everything. But damn it, if you
(00:56):
don't have children. Did you forget? Did you never meet
the right guy? Too chicken to go it alone? Oh,
you chose your career. There's still you'll change your mind
until there isn't, and then there's only a silent pity
and a question mark about the very meaning of a
(01:18):
woman's life if she didn't surrender herself to children, as
if that's some sort of waste, an empty space, a
lack but what if, for the myriad reasons that status exists.
The child free woman is not an affront, or a
sadness or an absence, but many things that, for whatever reason,
(01:40):
we are too afraid to look at, an acceptance that
sometimes we just don't get everything we wanted or imagined,
that a peace and reassessment can be found inside that fact.
Maybe that it's a private sadness that can be tucked
into a pocket as fulfilling lives a lived. Or maybe
(02:00):
it's a joyful opening of possibility, a gateway to a
life less ordinary, a freedom to pursue passion and purpose,
and a chance to write a different definition of family,
of nurturing, of motherhood. Or maybe it's just your little life,
not exceptional, not a statement, not a tragedy or a movement,
(02:22):
but just what is. There are many things the world
has become better at as we find ourselves in mid
but making sense of a child free woman is not
one of them yet. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and I
am mid midlife, mid family, mid bad attitude. What if
(02:42):
you didn't lose your keys because you're getting old? What
if you're grumpy today because you slept badly and you
slept badly because you've got a lot going on and
a busy, fizzy brain. And you have a lot going
on because you're capable and strong and still very much alive,
and your brain is busy because you're smart and experienced
and can hold many things at once. I'm asking you
(03:04):
these questions today not because I've lost it, but because
I want you to in a world that is pro aging,
not anti because that's the world our guest today. Faith
or Googu grew up in in Nigeria, where Faith was
born and lived until she moved to Britain age nine,
and then onto Australia as an adult. Faith says that
(03:26):
age was revered and respected that everybody wanted to be
the oldest person in the room. Can you even imagine
that in the world that we live in, where we
tilt our heads in pity at anyone over the age
of thirty. Faith is a psychotherapist who talks to a
lot of women about their anxiety about aging. In fact,
(03:47):
aging anxiety is something she's begun to specialize in a
bit and repositioning it as a positive or at the
very least, the age is not the defining thing about
their life. Moment, and that's become a big part of
what she does in reassuring women that they did not
lose their keys because they're getting old. Another thing she
does is host her own community, the Silver Sirens of
(04:08):
Older Women, sharing wisdom and companionship and stories. And today
she shares her story with me. We talk about all
kinds of things, about choosing a job you'll get better
at with age, about beauty and money, and also about
Faith's life without kids, how she came to be living
in it and how she made peace with it. It's
(04:30):
a beautiful, meaningful conversation about the letting go of the
lives you didn't get to live and embracing the one
that you did. Please meet Faith at Google. Faith, thank
you for being here with me today.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
We're all beginning to get a bit jack of anti aging, right,
anti aging, we're so.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Done with it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But you're one of the few people i've heard actually
say that you look forward to your next birthday, that
you're like actively pro aging. Yeah, tell me about that attitude.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, Look, it's one of those attitudes.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
When I say it, I can see the skepticism people's
faces and they're like, yeah, you know, but for me,
just growing up in a culture where agent is actually revered.
You know, I never got anything negative about agent. Obviously
can't be Pollyanna.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
We know that certain things will change and certain things
will become more challenging, but in terms of aging as
something to fear, it was just never in my consciousness,
you know. So for me, looking at my mother was
my role model. And in her fifties, she absolutely thrived,
you know, she really she started to went to study,
she broke up with my father, she found a new lover,
(05:41):
thank god, you know, and she traveled and just did
this really exciting thing. And I just saw that once
her focus was no longer on the children and us,
she could focus back on herself and I just saw
her blossoming, you know. So she was my personal role model.
And then culturally as a Nigerian, and I think a
lot of you know, collective cultures, not just Nigeria and
but a lot of collective cultures.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
You know, agent is something that we look forward to.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
You know, you revere the elders and you respect them,
and everyone wants to be the older person in the room.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That's so interesting that everybody wants to be the oldest
person in the room. So it's like you look forward
to getting that wisdom and having that sort of status.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's a status, that's exactly it. It's a status.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
And you grew up in Nigeria till you were about nine,
and then you moved to England. Is that right?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I did?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And did you feel a shift then in that culture
in terms of how people look to aging or I
mean you're little, You're probably not.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I didn't even think about it, to be honest, I
didn't think about aging until probably in my late forties.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
It's happening to me.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Well actually know, actually didn't. I only thought about it.
I didn't think about it even then. I was always
aware every master on Berthday that I had, Like when
I was twenty, I remember really clearly thinking, Wow, I
wonder what thirty would be. And then when I was thirty,
I remember thinking I wonder what forty would be Now
For me, that was just always my curiosity, you know.
I was always looking forward and people think like, why
(07:04):
are you doing that? But I just felt this excitement
that if I'm this person now, what would that be
ten years time? How do I have grown and evolved?
So I was at that curiosity about the process.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Do you think if you had to hazard a guess
or draw on your experience for why a lot of cultures,
including I guess the one we sort of swim in
here in Australia, are so anti aging rather than pro
What do you think it is. Do you think it's
that loss of status because we don't make older people
feel special, or do you think it's all physical or
(07:38):
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Look, I think there's a number of things, and I
think number one we are we live in a culture
where youth is absolutely valued. You know, it's all about
being young, and once you start to lose your youth,
you use your value, and especially around women. And one
of the things that really pissed me off in this
whole journey was how different the message for men and
women were. You know, we can tell men are allowed
(08:00):
to get old, is it allowed to age? You look
at George Clooney when you think about your filthy fox exactly,
silver fox, distinguished. These are the words we use when
we talk about men and aging, and yet for women
it's always about diminished, like chrone.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
You know, she's let herself.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Old lady, Yeah, she's let herself go and you know
that idea that almost done for women getting old or
looking older is almost kind of like a failure in
some way, you know, so women are shamed around it, criticized,
judge shamed. So it's I think a lot of it
is around one that sort of value. But also I
think the commercially is quite useful. You know, the whole
(08:38):
beauty industry is all about focused on keeping women insecure
about their their looks and especially losing their youth.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
So a lot of.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Attention on money is put on that, and there's a
lot of pressure on women, and I really that really
gets my goat because it's not fair because it doesn't
happen to men.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Absolutely. So the idea for Silver Sirens, which is your
community for women over fifty. As I've heard parts of
your story, I've heard that it was sort of borne
out of your second act, as it were, in a way.
So I'd love you to talk to me a little
bit about because I know we've as we've discussed we're
(09:17):
very pro aging. But I've heard you say that you
did go through a bit of a midlife crisis of
thoughts that made you decide to make some changes and
have led you to this place. Can you tell me
a bit about that.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, Look, I had my own midlife crisis, and I
love what Breno Brown says about midlife crisis, you know,
sort of seeing that as a crisis.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
We'll just see it as a transition, because that's exactly
what it is.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
But we don't have any word in around it, so
most people go through it in silence, and I'm not
quite sure what they're going through. And from a therapy perspective,
you know, we have extitity, and we have different markers
in life, you know, different phases that we go through,
so midlife is one of them. And the reason why
for a lot of people feels like a crisis. It's
like a juncture of a lot of big stresses in life.
So you know, I'd be changing jobs, or maybe a
(09:59):
marriage is broken down, or the children are leaving, our elders,
you know, our older generation. They're getting old and they're sick.
So there's like this time where there's all these stresses
happen at the same time, and we don't have anyone
talking about this. We don't actually know that it's natural.
So a lot of us do go through a crisis.
So my personal midlife crisis looked like closing down my
fashion business that i'd had for fourteen years.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Didn't have any children.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Sorry, I was going to say, so when you were younger,
you were a model, correct model, and then you had
your own fashion business.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yes, I did, and.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
The GFC kind of did came in that, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I was a fashion agent, so I did sales and
pr for fashion designers in Sydney and yeah, things were
just we're just struggling for a while, and I probably
should have walked away years ago, you know before, but
like a lot of us, I just kept thinking, it's me,
I'm doing something wrong. I just keep trying, and in
the end I had no choice but to close the doors.
And it was really sad, you know, because at the
(10:54):
time I wasn't in a relationship, I didn't have children,
so was my late forties, so it was kind of like,
is this it?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
You know?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So I did go through a really tough time and
there was and I fell into depression and it took me,
you know, a couple of years to kind of climb
out of that. But that was my midlife crisis, and
I didn't know that that's what I was having at
the time, and funny enough, it was coincided with kind
of a year after I had a hysterectomy, so I
got pushed into menopause, like I had what was called
(11:21):
medically induced menopause. Again, I didn't know anything about that
because there was no one around me that was talking
about that. And I think that's the challenge around this
stage for a lot of women is there's no conversations.
It's changing now because things like what you're doing, you're
saying God, but then there was no conversation.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Without wanting to pry too much, you had a hysterectomy
at that age for you had medical issues that needed
it was fibros.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, yeah, I had fibrous for many, many years, very
unpainful and very painful.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
And the reasons why.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I was kind of hanging on to my usurers was
because I was hoping to eventually have children one day.
So you know, I probably should have had the hysterectomy,
probably say, ten years before, but I was just hanging
in there.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
It's interesting that you say that, and you say I
should have probably closed the business before I should have.
I should have hindsights great the building.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
But also we do hold on to things. We hold
on to dreams and the things that we've worked hard
for because you know, we'll and as you just said,
we kind of think, well maybe if I just try hard.
So you're at that point in your life you're thinking
about what's next. I heard you say which I absolutely
loved that when you were thinking about what your next
(12:34):
career might be, you wanted to choose something that you
would get better at rather than something that you'd age
out of. And I love that because one of the
things I think about a lot. Now you know, my
job in the media. I love it. I get to
have all these meaningful conversations. But you're constantly aware of
your age, and people are always a bit like how
long do you think you can do this for? And
(12:56):
you're sort of thinking, what can I just be valued
for my wisdom and my insights about rather than like
picked apart for my age about. So you wanted to
choose something that you could just grow with and get
better and you chose psychotherapy.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Yeah, tell me about that. Well, I chose psychotherapy. But
like I said, I had three criteria of my new career.
You know, I'd been in the fashion industry for thirty
something years. My last job was in PR, so I
was expected to turn up at events and parties.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And I didn't want to anymore.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
I just to go home and have a couple of
tien and be called up in my jamis, you know.
And so I just thought, you know what, my next
careers has to be something. One that I get to
sit down, because fashion you're always running around, two that
the hourly rate would be high because fashion was not,
and the third one being I.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Would get better with age.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So in fashion, it was clear that I was aging
out of it, you know, and I wanted to do
something that I knew every single year, every bit of
experience I had would actually add value to the work
that I was doing. And that's exactly why I chose
that career. And it's proven to be right. And look,
and I'm going to be sixty this year. I know
that if I want to, I've got another twenty or
thirty years because I know psychologists and psychotherapists that are
(14:06):
in their la eighties and ninety you know, So if
I wanted to, I could just continue working and I
get to sit.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
In my rocking chair, you know. And by wisdom.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Exactly had also had therapy? Been you saying that in
that your midlife crisis looked like depressions?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, for sure?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Did you turn to therapy? Was that helpful for you?
Is that part of this decision too?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
No, that was great.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Look, I'd always kind of been open to therapy, and
I've had therapy at different times in my life, you know,
So it wasn't something that was strange to me, and
for me, it was a no brainer that I would
go and get some help, and I would, you know,
because I know that there's some clarity that happens. It's
not like someone's going to fix me, but there's something
that happens when I get to have someone really objective
get to hear me.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And reflect back to me what they hear.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And that's where the key is because a lot of
people go, well, what what's the benefit of just telling
someone your problem? But the therapist is actually trained to help
you reflect and it's the reflection that gives you the awareness.
Is the awareness that brings a back change.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
To understand a lot of people don't get that.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
So just having those conversations with the therapist and getting
that clarity and awareness myself really helped me to kind
of look at because, I mean the time I was
considering myself as a big failure, you know, and having
the therapy and talking it through, I realized that wasn't
actually true. That I'd done lots of amazing things, and
there were lots of circumstances why the business didn't work,
(15:22):
But for me, being a failure was actually not part
of the equation.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I'd spent fourteen years in that business. You know, I
had lots of staff that I had supported for many,
many years. I was actually a success, you know, and
it just didn't work out the way that I thought
it was going to work out.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And that's fine.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
That's the problem for most of us when things stopped
looking the way we want them to look. Instead of
maybe accessing and thinking maybe it's time to change course,
we just keep pushing.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
You know. That's one of the biggest things I've learned.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
That's so interesting. And then practicing as a psycho therapist,
you talking to lots of women, is when you and
again obviously correct me if I'm wrong. You began to
notice this like aging anxiety and a lot of your
female clients you were seeing you were noticing this aging anxiety.
And this is like the nugget that began to turn
(16:09):
into silver sirens as I understand it. What did that
look like, that aging anxiety that the women were talking
to you about.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah, you know, well I can still see, you know,
the one woman that sat across me, she was the
first one that came to me around aging anxiety. I
met another of her friend in Byron Bay and she said, look,
I've got this client that I think you'd love. Because
we were just talking in general and I was saying about,
you know, we're just talking. I don't know how aging
came into the conversation, but it did. And she said, look,
(16:37):
I've got a friend who's really struggling around this stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I want to refer to you. And that's kind of
how it started, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
And the agent anxiety looked like she was a classic
midlifer in the sense that she just her marriage was
just about to be over. She was going through a
lot of angst around you know, what to do next,
around her career, and then and then the other layer
of it was all around their physical appearance changing. And
she said to me, look, I'm so embarrassed to bring
this up. I've got real big problems. The thing that's
(17:04):
most painful and the hardest for me is that my
body's changing and I don't know what's going on and
anything everything I try, Like I used to go to
the gym and I could get into shape quickly, and
that's not happening in my hair, Like what's going on?
You know, I'm sick of dying it, but like I can't.
I can't let myself get great, you know. And she's
felt a lot of shame around that. So we just
started exploring it. You know, for me, I was exploring
(17:26):
whose attitude. It was a lot of the beliefs that
she had when I when I when we probed and said,
is that your view? Do you think you're less value?
Because she'll use the words invisible, you know, not so desirable.
You know, if when this relationship ends, who's gonna want me?
I'm an old woman, you know, I'm not I'm not
going to be I'm not attractive anymore, all of those
sort of things. So we started to explore whose value,
(17:47):
whose values, and whose views they were, you know, and
it wasn't actually hers. She'd internalize all of this, most
of e gendered agism, you know, from everywhere. You know,
we sometimes think it's just external, but it can be
our friendships as well.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I think as women too, we can be guilty of
reinforcing that the agism with each other than even just
the media and society.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
And that's the bit that I get really upset.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
It's interesting because talking about the surface, as your client
said to you, she was embarrassed that she was so
upset about it. Yeah, and I think a lot of
mid women struggle with that, right, Yeah, is that you're
You're like, I know it doesn't matter. I know I'm wise,
and You're like, and I know I'm wise, and I
(18:35):
know I've lived life and I'm accomplished in whatever I'm doing.
But when I look in the mirror what I see
I've been told my whole life that this is not apt.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Now.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I know that you, as we said before, you were
a model, and I mean, you're an exceptionally beautiful woman.
Of course I've got to say that, But how do
you get people to unpick that? Because I know that
as Silver Sirens, you you're very clear that you don't
judge about if you want to have interventions, if you
want to do whatever you want to do. If you
want to spend too much money on serums, if you
(19:08):
want to get your inject that's fine, But how do
we do that? On picking that you were just talking
about between do I think I'm ugly? Or is it
that everyone else has said I'm ugly? Have you experienced
that personally at all?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Not for me? I mean, actually that's actually not true.
Think I'm glad that you asked me that.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Have I experienced I've experienced it very little because I
remember looking at my neck one they going, wow, that's
got wrinkles. Now. I was kind of fascinated, you know,
I wasn't freaking out. I was kind of fascinating. I thought, wow,
this is what it looks like. But I do get
it a lot. I do see it a lot in
my in therapy, you know. And it starts to pick again.
As I said, it's about awareness. How we look is subjective,
you know. So we all decide that this look young
(19:47):
is good and oh it is not good, And we
look at a spectrum of what's acceptably attractive on what's
not line sing young eighteen or like that's nice. But
as you get closer and closer to over that end,
that's the that's the ugly, that's the you don't want
to be that, and that's the old woman. So the
old woman is right on the spectrum of what's not attractive.
(20:08):
So as people are a they're getting unconsciously, they're getting
closer to that. And that's terrifying because we've all internalized
that that's something you don't want to be. You certainly
don't want to look like you're like that, you know,
and we talked about here and gray and gray is
usually one of the first markers of moving to that place.
So women start to get this really deep terror. You
know that they're going to be completely out of control
(20:29):
and despite what they do, they're going to be lump
lumped into this category of no longer attractive, and so
many doors are going to be closed to them, and
that's frightening for people.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It is controls interesting that you said that, because it's
true about gray hair and wrinkles and the widening waiste
is that you do begin to feel a little out
of control, right, And sometimes I wonder if a lot
of the interventions that we try and do, we're trying
to wrestle the control that.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I think so absolutely you know, we're fighting again something
that really don't have any control over, you know. To
be clear, there are some aspects of aging that we
do have control over, there are, you know, And I think.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
That's what's really important. And I love this wort.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
I've just got this book thing, you know, there's lovely.
So I'm doctor Stephanie Burns. She has a theory around
agent I love of you on age and she says that,
you know, we all decide at a particular time in
our lives that whatever negative things that are happening to
us as suddenly are now because of our age. So
we may lose our keys, we may we may you know,
(21:30):
have aches and creeks in our body. You know, we
get someone's name, but at certain point in our lives,
usually in our fifties, we start to attribute that to age.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You know.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Then, so there's a mental part of it that that
we have to really look at.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Faith and I are going to be back in a
minute to talk about the moment she knew she wasn't
going to become a mother. So Silver Sirens was born
from this observation that you were seeing. And I assume
that the Silver and the Sirens is about the gray hair.
It's also tied up with our identity, right is that
(22:07):
suddenly well, like I didn't think that's who I was.
Do you encourage the women in your worlds to embrace
a new identity as an older person, as a silver
siren or is it more about an evolution of who
you've always been.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
I think it's a bit of both, you know. I
mean there's there's a level of acceptance. I mean, the
thing is, no matter how much surgery you do, how
much denial there is around it, we're all going to
get old if we're lucky, you know, And it's a privilege.
I lost my sister forty one. She didn't have that privilege.
So we're all going to get old. So it's there's
a level of acceptance around there's a level of coming
to terms with that's a natural progression of being human. Okay,
(22:45):
how we age, However, we do have control to go
back to old thing we do have control over. So
for me, it's not about being an age denier.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Because we're gonna get old.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
But it's kind of like, can I take control of
how our age instead of dropping into despair and then
giving up and not trying and trying doesn't have to
be and going to get botal, but trying to be
What are the things I have I have control over
because I aways. So my philosophy around agent is like,
enhance the opportunities and address the challenges.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
So the challenges might be certain physical things.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Do I need to do more exercise or exercise in
a different way, or make sure there's enough movement, or
do I need to change some of my diet. Those
are the things you can control, so you take control
of that, and there's something quite empowering. I see the
women when they take control of things they can, they
suddenly have this new zest of life, and the other
things send to shrink, you know that the despair around
(23:40):
oh my god, what's going on? And they start to
feel more vibrant in their bodies and they start to
shift the focus away from how they look to how
they feel.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And that's powerful, That's.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Really powerful, because that's I noticed it even in myself,
is that I feel like I've got loads of energy,
loads of ambition, loads of things I want to do.
And then sometimes I almost catch myself in the mirror
and I'm like, but who is that?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Like? You?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Like as in your you're getting old now. And I
wonder also if one of the things that can make
when when we visibly start to age, we can no
longer quite like we have to accept the fact that, yeah, right,
you know, my years are I'm shifting that balance between
having more years behind me, and sometimes that can be
(24:26):
very hard if there are areas in your life that
you've regretted or things you've wished you've done. And I've
heard you say, you know, like you can still do anything,
you might not be able to be a ballerina. I
think I think i've heard you say like in terms
of a career, but for big life things, it can
be hard to wrestle with that regret. And I've heard
you talk about your journey from being what you call
(24:47):
childless to child free, and I wonder if that is
something that you've well, I'm sure it's an area you've
learned a great deal about from that experience. Do you
mind telling us the story of your journey with becoming
a mum?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, look, I think you know, I love to make
the distinction between childless and child free because that's what
I started off as childless. You know, I remember my
twenties traveling around.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Europe, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I I was always an adventure and I loved going
out there and doing a lot of things. But always
in my mind was I was going to have children.
Like it was just I took it for granted. I
never thought for a moment that it would not be
open to me. So I kind of charged along and
did my life. You know. Then I get to my
late thirties, a relationship that I thought was going to
become a marriage falls apart, and I'm suddenly in this panic,
(25:32):
and then I have two or three relationships straight afterward.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I'm kind of grappling.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
The men were not right, but I just wanted it
to be, you know, right enough for me to get
pregnant and have a family, you know. So there was
all of that scrambling, and then there was all of
my peers were starting to have children, and there was
that real loneliness of isolation and where they were all
forming mother's group and they were having conversations that I
could not contribute. There was a real sense of being
(25:58):
pushed out of and it was so painful, you know,
And I was making really bad choices in men because
I was so focused on it's going to be the
one you know. So that was painful. And I was
forty five, went and I know my then partner, I
had just gone to have his tests at the IVF
clinic because we were I just convinced him too, we
go into therapy, convinced him to agree to have a
child with me. He just went and had his tests
(26:21):
the day before, and we were on his balcony. We
weren't living together, We're on his balcony, and I just
remember it was like a light bulb moment. I just
went faith, you're forty five when your child is ten,
you're going to be fifty five. When your child is twenty,
you're going to be sixty five. Are you going to
have the energy? What sort of quality of mother and
are you're going to give the child? And what sort
of quality of life are you're going to have. It
was just suddenly like bang, and I just realized that no,
(26:44):
the ship had salled. And it was so painful, even
though it was a clear reality, it was so painful.
The ship was selled, and I had to go through
the process of accepting that, and that was really really painful.
You know, it's a lot of grief around that, this
thing that I took for granted. It's just never going
to be an option, you know. So that going through again,
did some therapy and really processed that grief and pain
(27:04):
around that, and then I came into this place where
there was all that acceptance, which is beautiful. What's what
happens with grief? You know, you land in this space
of acceptance. And I surveyed and it was like, wow,
my life now is mine? Yeah, you know, my money
is mine, like you.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Know, I don't have to play school fees or college fees,
it's mine. What do I want to do?
Speaker 2 (27:23):
And then one of the possibility, one of the possibilities there.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
And then things shifted.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
It was like all the friends all in like in
their mum's group, and this lovely life that they had
that I envied was suddenly turned around, going, oh my god,
you're so lucky. Oh my god, you've just done that.
What if you just done oh my god? You know,
and suddenly I got this this right sizedness of there's
there's positive and challenges in both being a mom and
not being a mom, you know, and I was going
(27:48):
to do the absolute best that I could.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
That I had this life, this privileged life of.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Not having to you know, put my life on hold
for someone else, or sacrifice for one else.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
And there was other ways of mothering.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, I've heard you speak about that.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
That's so important.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
What do you when you say other ways of mothering?
What do you What does that mean to you?
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Okay, Well, for me, I believe that I'm a natural nurturer,
you know, and I think building communities. Yeah, you know,
so that's for me. So for me, what are the
qualities of mothering?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
You know?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
For me, it's it's unconditional love, it's care, it's mothers
are always sacrificed and always thinking about not someone. I
feel that sacrifice a bit negative, but always considering the
well being and needs of other people, you know. And
I find for me it's something that I love doing.
I get to do it in my therapy, you know.
And some people believe the therapy is almost one of
(28:40):
the roles of the therapist is is playing the role
of the good mother. A lot of people have challenges
around their mother, but you come in and you play
that role.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
You model what that would look like.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
So you're giving them a some sort of unconditional love
and acceptance. And you know, in the relationships they get
to see that. So in that way, I get to
mother for sure. I get to mother in my friendships
a lot, because I'm definitely the person who if someone's said,
I'm bringing the castle role, you know, and having a
community like civil science, I had absolutely no idea that
I was actually building. I thought I was building the
(29:08):
community for other women. But I was built in the
community that I need that I'm going to grow into,
you know, interesting, and there's so much mothering in that.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I think there's so much wisdom in like everything he
just said. But what the talking about that very painful
moment of letting go of this dream and then that
coming into an acceptance. If there's anyone listening to this
who's wrestled with that and going, I don't feel like
I'm there yet, Like I'm still in the sadness of
(29:38):
what I didn't get, the life I didn't get to have. Obviously,
you've said therapy helps a lot. Is there something that
you would share with them that would help them through that?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Look, I think the thing around time, I know it's
not sexy.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Time, you know, and the thing is honor where you're at.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
You know, I'm really glad that I didn't have any
kind of pretend Pollyanna, you know, spiritual emotional bypassing, where
I've just kind of pretended I was okay before I was,
you know, it took time, and I'm really glad. So
I allowed myself to go there, allowed myself to own
the pain, allowed myself to own the jealousy that I had,
and I sort of thinking myself as a jealous person,
(30:20):
but I felt jealous, you know. So I allowed myself
just to own all of that. And I think that's
the thing. Don't much try and make yourself feel bad
for all the feelings that you're having one of them.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
That's natural, you know. And have a safe space to
share it.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Doesn't have to be a therapist, but just have a
couple of good friends that you can just go and
share it with and not feel judged, you know. And
I think that's what's really important. Just give yourself time
and just keep being kind to yourself through the process.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
When we come back, Faith tells me about whether we're
getting better at understanding that happiness looks different for every
woman stay with us. Do you think that in general
and culture we're getting better at understanding that there are
lots of different ways to have a successful, happy life
as a woman, and it's not all about the picket
(31:06):
fence and the babies. Do you think we're getting better
at that?
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Think? So? I mean, I think you can see that everywhere.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
I mean, the amount of people that are not having
children is growing more and more. And we know that's
only that's figures only getting bigger, you know. So I
think that we're kind of accepting that you can have
a fulfilling life without it looking like the cookie cutter
that we've been told that they have to look like
this for it to be a successful life. That's changing,
and I think that's really exciting, you know. And I
think that, I mean, I always say, the human beings,
(31:31):
we're not in danger of being extinct. It's okay some
of us are opt out of having children. You know,
there are money of the mound.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
There are I also really love that when we were
talking before about your decisions about what to do with
this next phase of your life and your decision about
your career change, you mentioned money, which I really liked
that you did that. And I've seen you talk about
that and some of your videos and things about goals
because sometimes it seems a bit like frowned upon almost
(31:57):
for women to talk about money, like we're supposed we
do everything because we love it and we do everything,
you know, for other people and blah blah blah. But
financial security, particularly as you age, is really important. So
the fact that you even will say, like I knew
I wanted to choose a job that would pay me
well enough to be able for me to have like,
that's that's really important. Do you encourage women who you
(32:22):
work with to think about that too, and do you
think about finance?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
I challenged them a lot, you know, because a lot
of women will come to me they'll have some problems
around money. I mean, I've got so many clients who
and separation and divorce were completely shafted, you know, because
they didn't know what was really going on in their
financial life and their husband took care of it. And
I'm shocked the whistle has saying that. But that's still
the case for a lot of women, you know. So
a lot of them come and they've worked all their
(32:47):
lives and you know, brought up the kids, and now
they've left with literally nothing, you know. So I'm onto it,
and I really talk to my clients. I challenged them around,
you know, not being afraid to have the conversation.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I poke them, you know.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
And I do it a lot with Silver Sirens as well.
And I try and be super transparent with Silver Sirens too,
because I pay for pretty much.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Everything's not very white is a community that I'm funding.
So it used to feel quite shameful for me to
own it, and I just thought, no, it's not realistic.
I'm not going to pretend to be where I'm not.
I'm going to say what's going on, you know. So
I've always tried to model that, and you know, through
through our content that we create as well and the resources.
I always try and make sure that we have money
experts to come in and talk to the women about
(33:30):
money often, you know, and we try and now we
separate our content into mounmth so June because it's the
end of financially in Australia that's all focused on finances,
and we've got loads of amazing experts now on board
to talk to the women because I want the women
to be empowered. We support the Older Women's Network their
homelessness program and I feel so passionate about that because
(33:52):
women have a fifty are the fastest growing coco and homelessness,
and we have to do something about that. And part
of that is awareness and we have to talk about
it is the women know, and a lot of women
that are ashamed so they don't even say to anybody
that they're sleeping in their cars.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Scary, it's really scary sometimes. I mean it's a stereotype.
But women are resilient, right, we push on, we get
things done, We make the most of it, like you know,
make the most of a situation. But you know, you
can only be so resilient when you need to actually
be saying I'm not coping.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, I'm not coping.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
That's exactly I've also heard you say. And I want
you to obviously tell me more about Silver Sirens, but
that one of the things that when you've asked your community,
and I assume this is through your work as well,
loneliness is a massive thing that came up. I found
that quite surprising. We're not surprising, but I think there
was a stat I was reading you were saying something
like seventy percent of the women you were said that
(34:46):
loneliness and connection or lack of connection was one of
the biggest things. What do you think is behind that?
And do you think that's also you know, we were
talking about cultural differences and how you know, in our
culture where we're scared of age and we don't value
necessarily our elders as much, why do you think this
(35:08):
cohort can feel so isolated?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
You know, as people are aging, you know, it's that
thing of they start to recede and disappear. You know,
we have those multi generational cultures where everyone is brought in,
you know, no matter what your age, every single member
of the family is kind of included, whereas now it's
almost like you get past a certain age and you're
no longer invited to things or people forget about you.
You know, and a lot of people too, you know,
(35:32):
they move away, or friends are dying, friends are moving away.
There's there again, is that there's a lot of different
factors that cause that. But again, when people find themselves
in that situation, they don't talk about it, nor do
they freach out a lot of you know, when we
first started exploring the loneliness, I started to have these
monthly virtual Silver Connection lunches I call them, and we know,
we get together and we bring food, and you know,
(35:54):
that's how the process started. And a lot of the
women just say they felt a lot of shame around
telling people that they felt lonely, you know. And we
also did a loneliness town hall where we just you know,
just open it up and people we've lived experiences, this
is a safe space for you to tell us what
that felt like.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
A lot of people what it was shame.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
You know, my friends have moved away all of this,
I've lost all of my contact, but I'm scared to
reach out. I'm scared to tell anybody. I feel shamed
to tell anybody that I feel like this. So then
they'll just withdraw and isolate and try and figure it
out by themselves, and their lives just gets shots and
the more shrunk and less and more more isolated.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
It's very sad to see.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I always remember my mother in law. She's not with
us anymore, but she described it very clearly to me
of what she didn't want to happen to her, but
that she said, I saw my mother's life go from
being out in the world with all these connections to
literally shrinking to her kitchen, like because she was literally
sitting at her kitchen table twenty four to seven, and
it was a very stark visual picture for me as.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Of what the shrinking of your life.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, so obviously your silver sirens in your community. You're
very much about connecting, Yeah, bringing the women together. What
do you love most about spending time with women in
this face of their lives?
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Look, I think the laughter, you know, and we talk about,
you know, a fewer folks to give, you know, we
talk about that, and that gets better as you age.
You know, I'm sixty next, and I'm expecting to be
dropping more fucks next every.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Birthday, every birthday, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
But I think there's a there's an honesty you know
that happens. And when we have our monthly lunches, you know,
we do a talking stick thing where we go around
the room. We do five minute stage and we talk
and you really see the women are very open and
they're very vulnerable, and they're very real, and there's a
richness in what they share, you know, and there's a
lot of laughter. There's something about again, it is that
(37:46):
thing where we take ourselves less seriously and we're not
so confined in this idea that I can't say that
because I don't want people to you know, to judge me,
or you know, that idea that we want that image
management and we get so stuck in I think my twenties,
thirties on some of my forties were so stuck in
that image management. That drops away, so you get to
see real people. So the connections are meaning for the deep.
(38:09):
They're rich, you know, and I walk away always feeling
fed by those You know, something very beautiful about it.
If you ever came to a civil sarer's event, that's
one thing you get straight away you walk through the door.
It's almost like I always say, you feel like it's
like it's like collectively.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
We all take off our bras.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
You just feel that you know, and everyone just relaxes,
and it's that this is who I am. And I
always get that feedback. It's like I'm totally accepted for
who I am, and for once, I don't have to
suck in my guard I don't have to do anything.
I can just relax completely.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
And I love that when you look so as you said,
you're turning sixty six in a few months, which is
you know, no age at all, when you with all
your experience and from where you began, as you were
saying of everyone wanted to be the old, the older person,
the elder, the wise. When you look at your what
I call like your proper old age, Like what kind
(39:02):
of elder do you want to be? What do you
see in twenty thirty years?
Speaker 3 (39:07):
So I know I often talk about being an elder
in training, you know, and it's it's a badge of
honor for me, you know. And I think that my sixties,
this decade, I really want it to be about intentional aging,
you know. And what that looks like for me is
I think we can kind of run through our lives
and we've got a few goals here and there, but
we're not intentional about how the people were becoming. So
(39:30):
for me, I want to be intentionally agent. And again,
doctor Stephanie Burns talks about, you know, she reminds us
that from the age of twenty to fifty, we've lived
thirty years, and so many things happen in those thirty years.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Now from fifty to eighty, we're repeating.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
The same amount of time, so we're going to have
the same amount of possibilities and adventures, you know. So
when I think that that, yeah, when I think about that,
I think I did so much in my twenties to fifty, like,
how can I replicate that? But in you know, reflecting
to where I'm going. So I think about very much
being intentional ager and age and elder in training. I
(40:07):
think about what sort of elder do I want to be,
you know? And I want to stay curious, you know,
and for like ever learning, ever grow. And I think
one of the things that I see the people that
are struggling with aging is that curiosity is not there.
There's a sense that they've done everything they're supposed to do.
Now they're waiting.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
We're almost like I don't fit in the world anymore
because it's made for the young people whatever. Yes, And
it's almost like your self select that you're out of
it rather than in.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
It exactly, So how do we stay in it? So
intentional aging for me is staying very much connected with life.
I don't think about it as being relevant. And sometimes
I hear the conversation I relevance that just annoys me
because I don't think we should be trying to be relevant.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
I think if we're just.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Being and living life with curiosity, it's not about being relevant.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
What does it really mean?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Because I mean I say that about myself. Sometimes I'm like,
oh my god, am I becoming irrelevant? And then but
what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Yeah, it's just another label that just again it constricts.
It's like the same as invisibility, you know. So for me,
it's really I think our biggest role as elders is
mentoring and being role models for the younger generation. I
think if we hide, disappear, shrink, we're not showing young
women that there's a lot to live for and they've
(41:20):
got this vibrant life ahead of us, and I think
it's a responsibility for us to show them the kind
of lives they can live, you know. And I take
that really seriously.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Like when you are talking at the beginning of our
conversation today about your mom, is your mom still with us?
She is, yeah, And how is she doing now?
Speaker 3 (41:36):
She's ata Well, she's not the sort of elder that
she would have liked to be because she had some
health issues which really slowed her down. You know, so
in terms of physical you know, mobility, it's quite as
more restrictive than she would be. She's always been quite
an active person, but she got ill about five years ago,
and that kind of really derailed her health. But in
terms of mental health, she's as sharp as a whistle.
(41:58):
She's still the person that everyone talks goes to. You know,
she's a matriarch and very much the center of our family.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yeah, oh well, I'm very happy to hear that.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Faith.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
It's been amazing to talk to you today.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I feel fool I love.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yeah, I loved it. I love there are so many
things I'm gonna have to slow down and think about that. Look,
if you loved this episode, and I obviously love talking
to Faith, I think I particularly found a lot of
revelation in that honest conversation about what happens when you
(42:34):
don't get what you want, which has happened to all
of us in very different ways, and how you deal
with it, and her honesty around the midlife crisis and
what came next. And if you want more conversations of
that level of honesty and intelligence, I encourage you to
flick back through mid because we've got loads of them.
Listen to Christine Anau, who I spoke to in season
(42:57):
one about She talks really honestly about the mistakes that
she made as a mother and how sometimes your adult
kids will turn around and talk to you about them,
and again you just have to accept what is rather
than what you think think should be. To Gina Chick,
who lived through the unimaginable of losing her little daughter
and about how she reimagined her life after that. And
(43:19):
with Ali Daddo, who, like Faith, was a model who's
you know, a lot of her life and self worth
was caught up with what she looked like when she
was younger and what does that feel like to let
go of as you get older. All of those conversations
you can find in our mid feed if you just
slick back. I can't thank you all enough for being
here with us as we have these meaningful conversations that
(43:41):
hopefully make you laugh a little bit too. We're going
to be back in your ears next week and until then,
big thanks to our team Executive producer Nama Brown, senior
producer Grace Rufray, our producer Tarlie Blackman, and our audio
producer Jacob Brown. See you next week.
You're listening to a MoMA Mia podcast.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Mamma Mere acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters
that this podcast is recorded on. Who will look after
you when you're old? What's wrong with you? How will
you ever understand unconditional love? So selfish? So sad? There
are many things the world has got better at when
(00:34):
it comes to women being able to live their lives.
However they choose. No need to hand in your work
security pass when a ring goes on the finger, No
need to get a man to sign that loan application,
that voting form, that credit card. You'll be tolerated for
not marrying the first person who asks. You can run
for office, and you can drive your car, and you
can buy your own everything. But damn it, if you
(00:56):
don't have children. Did you forget? Did you never meet
the right guy? Too chicken to go it alone? Oh,
you chose your career. There's still you'll change your mind
until there isn't, and then there's only a silent pity
and a question mark about the very meaning of a
(01:18):
woman's life if she didn't surrender herself to children, as
if that's some sort of waste, an empty space, a
lack but what if, for the myriad reasons that status exists.
The child free woman is not an affront, or a
sadness or an absence, but many things that, for whatever reason,
(01:40):
we are too afraid to look at, an acceptance that
sometimes we just don't get everything we wanted or imagined,
that a peace and reassessment can be found inside that fact.
Maybe that it's a private sadness that can be tucked
into a pocket as fulfilling lives a lived. Or maybe
(02:00):
it's a joyful opening of possibility, a gateway to a
life less ordinary, a freedom to pursue passion and purpose,
and a chance to write a different definition of family,
of nurturing, of motherhood. Or maybe it's just your little life,
not exceptional, not a statement, not a tragedy or a movement,
(02:22):
but just what is. There are many things the world
has become better at as we find ourselves in mid
but making sense of a child free woman is not
one of them yet. Hello, I'm Holly Wainwright, and I
am mid midlife, mid family, mid bad attitude. What if
(02:42):
you didn't lose your keys because you're getting old? What
if you're grumpy today because you slept badly and you
slept badly because you've got a lot going on and
a busy, fizzy brain. And you have a lot going
on because you're capable and strong and still very much alive,
and your brain is busy because you're smart and experienced
and can hold many things at once. I'm asking you
(03:04):
these questions today not because I've lost it, but because
I want you to in a world that is pro aging,
not anti because that's the world our guest today. Faith
or Googu grew up in in Nigeria, where Faith was
born and lived until she moved to Britain age nine,
and then onto Australia as an adult. Faith says that
(03:26):
age was revered and respected that everybody wanted to be
the oldest person in the room. Can you even imagine
that in the world that we live in, where we
tilt our heads in pity at anyone over the age
of thirty. Faith is a psychotherapist who talks to a
lot of women about their anxiety about aging. In fact,
(03:47):
aging anxiety is something she's begun to specialize in a
bit and repositioning it as a positive or at the
very least, the age is not the defining thing about
their life. Moment, and that's become a big part of
what she does in reassuring women that they did not
lose their keys because they're getting old. Another thing she
does is host her own community, the Silver Sirens of
(04:08):
Older Women, sharing wisdom and companionship and stories. And today
she shares her story with me. We talk about all
kinds of things, about choosing a job you'll get better
at with age, about beauty and money, and also about
Faith's life without kids, how she came to be living
in it and how she made peace with it. It's
(04:30):
a beautiful, meaningful conversation about the letting go of the
lives you didn't get to live and embracing the one
that you did. Please meet Faith at Google. Faith, thank
you for being here with me today.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Absolute pleasure.
Speaker 2 (04:45):
We're all beginning to get a bit jack of anti aging, right,
anti aging, we're so.
Speaker 1 (04:50):
Done with it.
Speaker 2 (04:51):
But you're one of the few people i've heard actually
say that you look forward to your next birthday, that
you're like actively pro aging. Yeah, tell me about that attitude.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Yeah, Look, it's one of those attitudes.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
When I say it, I can see the skepticism people's
faces and they're like, yeah, you know, but for me,
just growing up in a culture where agent is actually revered.
You know, I never got anything negative about agent. Obviously
can't be Pollyanna.
Speaker 2 (05:20):
You know.
Speaker 3 (05:20):
We know that certain things will change and certain things
will become more challenging, but in terms of aging as
something to fear, it was just never in my consciousness,
you know. So for me, looking at my mother was
my role model. And in her fifties, she absolutely thrived,
you know, she really she started to went to study,
she broke up with my father, she found a new lover,
(05:41):
thank god, you know, and she traveled and just did
this really exciting thing. And I just saw that once
her focus was no longer on the children and us,
she could focus back on herself and I just saw
her blossoming, you know. So she was my personal role model.
And then culturally as a Nigerian, and I think a
lot of you know, collective cultures, not just Nigeria and
but a lot of collective cultures.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
You know, agent is something that we look forward to.
Speaker 3 (06:05):
You know, you revere the elders and you respect them,
and everyone wants to be the older person in the room.
Speaker 2 (06:10):
That's so interesting that everybody wants to be the oldest
person in the room. So it's like you look forward
to getting that wisdom and having that sort of status.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
It's a status, that's exactly it. It's a status.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
And you grew up in Nigeria till you were about nine,
and then you moved to England. Is that right?
Speaker 1 (06:28):
I did?
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And did you feel a shift then in that culture
in terms of how people look to aging or I
mean you're little, You're probably not.
Speaker 3 (06:36):
I didn't even think about it, to be honest, I
didn't think about aging until probably in my late forties.
Speaker 2 (06:41):
It's happening to me.
Speaker 3 (06:42):
Well actually know, actually didn't. I only thought about it.
I didn't think about it even then. I was always
aware every master on Berthday that I had, Like when
I was twenty, I remember really clearly thinking, Wow, I
wonder what thirty would be. And then when I was thirty,
I remember thinking I wonder what forty would be Now
For me, that was just always my curiosity, you know.
I was always looking forward and people think like, why
(07:04):
are you doing that? But I just felt this excitement
that if I'm this person now, what would that be
ten years time? How do I have grown and evolved?
So I was at that curiosity about the process.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Do you think if you had to hazard a guess
or draw on your experience for why a lot of cultures,
including I guess the one we sort of swim in
here in Australia, are so anti aging rather than pro
What do you think it is. Do you think it's
that loss of status because we don't make older people
feel special, or do you think it's all physical or
(07:38):
what do you think?
Speaker 3 (07:39):
Look, I think there's a number of things, and I
think number one we are we live in a culture
where youth is absolutely valued. You know, it's all about
being young, and once you start to lose your youth,
you use your value, and especially around women. And one
of the things that really pissed me off in this
whole journey was how different the message for men and
women were. You know, we can tell men are allowed
(08:00):
to get old, is it allowed to age? You look
at George Clooney when you think about your filthy fox exactly,
silver fox, distinguished. These are the words we use when
we talk about men and aging, and yet for women
it's always about diminished, like chrone.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
You know, she's let herself.
Speaker 3 (08:15):
Old lady, Yeah, she's let herself go and you know
that idea that almost done for women getting old or
looking older is almost kind of like a failure in
some way, you know, so women are shamed around it, criticized,
judge shamed. So it's I think a lot of it
is around one that sort of value. But also I
think the commercially is quite useful. You know, the whole
(08:38):
beauty industry is all about focused on keeping women insecure
about their their looks and especially losing their youth.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
So a lot of.
Speaker 3 (08:47):
Attention on money is put on that, and there's a
lot of pressure on women, and I really that really
gets my goat because it's not fair because it doesn't
happen to men.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
Absolutely. So the idea for Silver Sirens, which is your
community for women over fifty. As I've heard parts of
your story, I've heard that it was sort of borne
out of your second act, as it were, in a way.
So I'd love you to talk to me a little
bit about because I know we've as we've discussed we're
(09:17):
very pro aging. But I've heard you say that you
did go through a bit of a midlife crisis of
thoughts that made you decide to make some changes and
have led you to this place. Can you tell me
a bit about that.
Speaker 3 (09:28):
Yeah, Look, I had my own midlife crisis, and I
love what Breno Brown says about midlife crisis, you know,
sort of seeing that as a crisis.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
We'll just see it as a transition, because that's exactly
what it is.
Speaker 3 (09:38):
But we don't have any word in around it, so
most people go through it in silence, and I'm not
quite sure what they're going through. And from a therapy perspective,
you know, we have extitity, and we have different markers
in life, you know, different phases that we go through,
so midlife is one of them. And the reason why
for a lot of people feels like a crisis. It's
like a juncture of a lot of big stresses in life.
So you know, I'd be changing jobs, or maybe a
(09:59):
marriage is broken down, or the children are leaving, our elders,
you know, our older generation. They're getting old and they're sick.
So there's like this time where there's all these stresses
happen at the same time, and we don't have anyone
talking about this. We don't actually know that it's natural.
So a lot of us do go through a crisis.
So my personal midlife crisis looked like closing down my
fashion business that i'd had for fourteen years.
Speaker 1 (10:21):
Didn't have any children.
Speaker 2 (10:22):
Sorry, I was going to say, so when you were younger,
you were a model, correct model, and then you had
your own fashion business.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
Yes, I did, and.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
The GFC kind of did came in that, right, Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:34):
I was a fashion agent, so I did sales and
pr for fashion designers in Sydney and yeah, things were
just we're just struggling for a while, and I probably
should have walked away years ago, you know before, but
like a lot of us, I just kept thinking, it's me,
I'm doing something wrong. I just keep trying, and in
the end I had no choice but to close the doors.
And it was really sad, you know, because at the
(10:54):
time I wasn't in a relationship, I didn't have children,
so was my late forties, so it was kind of like,
is this it?
Speaker 2 (11:00):
You know?
Speaker 3 (11:00):
So I did go through a really tough time and
there was and I fell into depression and it took me,
you know, a couple of years to kind of climb
out of that. But that was my midlife crisis, and
I didn't know that that's what I was having at
the time, and funny enough, it was coincided with kind
of a year after I had a hysterectomy, so I
got pushed into menopause, like I had what was called
(11:21):
medically induced menopause. Again, I didn't know anything about that
because there was no one around me that was talking
about that. And I think that's the challenge around this
stage for a lot of women is there's no conversations.
It's changing now because things like what you're doing, you're
saying God, but then there was no conversation.
Speaker 2 (11:38):
Without wanting to pry too much, you had a hysterectomy
at that age for you had medical issues that needed
it was fibros.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, yeah, I had fibrous for many, many years, very
unpainful and very painful.
Speaker 1 (11:49):
And the reasons why.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
I was kind of hanging on to my usurers was
because I was hoping to eventually have children one day.
So you know, I probably should have had the hysterectomy,
probably say, ten years before, but I was just hanging
in there.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
It's interesting that you say that, and you say I
should have probably closed the business before I should have.
I should have hindsights great the building.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
That's so true.
Speaker 2 (12:13):
But also we do hold on to things. We hold
on to dreams and the things that we've worked hard
for because you know, we'll and as you just said,
we kind of think, well maybe if I just try hard.
So you're at that point in your life you're thinking
about what's next. I heard you say which I absolutely
loved that when you were thinking about what your next
(12:34):
career might be, you wanted to choose something that you
would get better at rather than something that you'd age
out of. And I love that because one of the
things I think about a lot. Now you know, my
job in the media. I love it. I get to
have all these meaningful conversations. But you're constantly aware of
your age, and people are always a bit like how
long do you think you can do this for? And
(12:56):
you're sort of thinking, what can I just be valued
for my wisdom and my insights about rather than like
picked apart for my age about. So you wanted to
choose something that you could just grow with and get
better and you chose psychotherapy.
Speaker 3 (13:11):
Yeah, tell me about that. Well, I chose psychotherapy. But
like I said, I had three criteria of my new career.
You know, I'd been in the fashion industry for thirty
something years. My last job was in PR, so I
was expected to turn up at events and parties.
Speaker 1 (13:24):
And I didn't want to anymore.
Speaker 3 (13:26):
I just to go home and have a couple of
tien and be called up in my jamis, you know.
And so I just thought, you know what, my next
careers has to be something. One that I get to
sit down, because fashion you're always running around, two that
the hourly rate would be high because fashion was not,
and the third one being I.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Would get better with age.
Speaker 3 (13:43):
So in fashion, it was clear that I was aging
out of it, you know, and I wanted to do
something that I knew every single year, every bit of
experience I had would actually add value to the work
that I was doing. And that's exactly why I chose
that career. And it's proven to be right. And look,
and I'm going to be sixty this year. I know
that if I want to, I've got another twenty or
thirty years because I know psychologists and psychotherapists that are
(14:06):
in their la eighties and ninety you know, So if
I wanted to, I could just continue working and I
get to sit.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
In my rocking chair, you know. And by wisdom.
Speaker 2 (14:15):
Exactly had also had therapy? Been you saying that in
that your midlife crisis looked like depressions?
Speaker 1 (14:21):
Yeah, for sure?
Speaker 2 (14:21):
Did you turn to therapy? Was that helpful for you?
Is that part of this decision too?
Speaker 3 (14:25):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (14:26):
No, that was great.
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Look, I'd always kind of been open to therapy, and
I've had therapy at different times in my life, you know,
So it wasn't something that was strange to me, and
for me, it was a no brainer that I would
go and get some help, and I would, you know,
because I know that there's some clarity that happens. It's
not like someone's going to fix me, but there's something
that happens when I get to have someone really objective
get to hear me.
Speaker 1 (14:46):
And reflect back to me what they hear.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
And that's where the key is because a lot of
people go, well, what what's the benefit of just telling
someone your problem? But the therapist is actually trained to help
you reflect and it's the reflection that gives you the awareness.
Is the awareness that brings a back change.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
To understand a lot of people don't get that.
Speaker 3 (15:02):
So just having those conversations with the therapist and getting
that clarity and awareness myself really helped me to kind
of look at because, I mean the time I was
considering myself as a big failure, you know, and having
the therapy and talking it through, I realized that wasn't
actually true. That I'd done lots of amazing things, and
there were lots of circumstances why the business didn't work,
(15:22):
But for me, being a failure was actually not part
of the equation.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
You know.
Speaker 3 (15:25):
I'd spent fourteen years in that business. You know, I
had lots of staff that I had supported for many,
many years. I was actually a success, you know, and
it just didn't work out the way that I thought
it was going to work out.
Speaker 1 (15:36):
And that's fine.
Speaker 3 (15:36):
That's the problem for most of us when things stopped
looking the way we want them to look. Instead of
maybe accessing and thinking maybe it's time to change course,
we just keep pushing.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
You know. That's one of the biggest things I've learned.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
That's so interesting. And then practicing as a psycho therapist,
you talking to lots of women, is when you and
again obviously correct me if I'm wrong. You began to
notice this like aging anxiety and a lot of your
female clients you were seeing you were noticing this aging anxiety.
And this is like the nugget that began to turn
(16:09):
into silver sirens as I understand it. What did that
look like, that aging anxiety that the women were talking
to you about.
Speaker 3 (16:17):
Yeah, you know, well I can still see, you know,
the one woman that sat across me, she was the
first one that came to me around aging anxiety. I
met another of her friend in Byron Bay and she said, look,
I've got this client that I think you'd love. Because
we were just talking in general and I was saying about,
you know, we're just talking. I don't know how aging
came into the conversation, but it did. And she said, look,
(16:37):
I've got a friend who's really struggling around this stuff.
Speaker 1 (16:39):
I want to refer to you. And that's kind of
how it started, you know.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
And the agent anxiety looked like she was a classic
midlifer in the sense that she just her marriage was
just about to be over. She was going through a
lot of angst around you know, what to do next,
around her career, and then and then the other layer
of it was all around their physical appearance changing. And
she said to me, look, I'm so embarrassed to bring
this up. I've got real big problems. The thing that's
(17:04):
most painful and the hardest for me is that my
body's changing and I don't know what's going on and
anything everything I try, Like I used to go to
the gym and I could get into shape quickly, and
that's not happening in my hair, Like what's going on?
You know, I'm sick of dying it, but like I can't.
I can't let myself get great, you know. And she's
felt a lot of shame around that. So we just
started exploring it. You know, for me, I was exploring
(17:26):
whose attitude. It was a lot of the beliefs that
she had when I when I when we probed and said,
is that your view? Do you think you're less value?
Because she'll use the words invisible, you know, not so desirable.
You know, if when this relationship ends, who's gonna want me?
I'm an old woman, you know, I'm not I'm not
going to be I'm not attractive anymore, all of those
sort of things. So we started to explore whose value,
(17:47):
whose values, and whose views they were, you know, and
it wasn't actually hers. She'd internalize all of this, most
of e gendered agism, you know, from everywhere. You know,
we sometimes think it's just external, but it can be
our friendships as well.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
You know.
Speaker 3 (18:04):
I think as women too, we can be guilty of
reinforcing that the agism with each other than even just
the media and society.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
And that's the bit that I get really upset.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
It's interesting because talking about the surface, as your client
said to you, she was embarrassed that she was so
upset about it. Yeah, and I think a lot of
mid women struggle with that, right, Yeah, is that you're
You're like, I know it doesn't matter. I know I'm wise,
and You're like, and I know I'm wise, and I
(18:35):
know I've lived life and I'm accomplished in whatever I'm doing.
But when I look in the mirror what I see
I've been told my whole life that this is not apt.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Now.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
I know that you, as we said before, you were
a model, and I mean, you're an exceptionally beautiful woman.
Of course I've got to say that, But how do
you get people to unpick that? Because I know that
as Silver Sirens, you you're very clear that you don't
judge about if you want to have interventions, if you
want to do whatever you want to do. If you
want to spend too much money on serums, if you
(19:08):
want to get your inject that's fine, But how do
we do that? On picking that you were just talking
about between do I think I'm ugly? Or is it
that everyone else has said I'm ugly? Have you experienced
that personally at all?
Speaker 1 (19:21):
Not for me? I mean, actually that's actually not true.
Think I'm glad that you asked me that.
Speaker 3 (19:25):
Have I experienced I've experienced it very little because I
remember looking at my neck one they going, wow, that's
got wrinkles. Now. I was kind of fascinated, you know,
I wasn't freaking out. I was kind of fascinating. I thought, wow,
this is what it looks like. But I do get
it a lot. I do see it a lot in
my in therapy, you know. And it starts to pick again.
As I said, it's about awareness. How we look is subjective,
you know. So we all decide that this look young
(19:47):
is good and oh it is not good, And we
look at a spectrum of what's acceptably attractive on what's
not line sing young eighteen or like that's nice. But
as you get closer and closer to over that end,
that's the that's the ugly, that's the you don't want
to be that, and that's the old woman. So the
old woman is right on the spectrum of what's not attractive.
(20:08):
So as people are a they're getting unconsciously, they're getting
closer to that. And that's terrifying because we've all internalized
that that's something you don't want to be. You certainly
don't want to look like you're like that, you know,
and we talked about here and gray and gray is
usually one of the first markers of moving to that place.
So women start to get this really deep terror. You
know that they're going to be completely out of control
(20:29):
and despite what they do, they're going to be lump
lumped into this category of no longer attractive, and so
many doors are going to be closed to them, and
that's frightening for people.
Speaker 2 (20:38):
It is controls interesting that you said that, because it's
true about gray hair and wrinkles and the widening waiste
is that you do begin to feel a little out
of control, right, And sometimes I wonder if a lot
of the interventions that we try and do, we're trying
to wrestle the control that.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
I think so absolutely you know, we're fighting again something
that really don't have any control over, you know. To
be clear, there are some aspects of aging that we
do have control over, there are, you know, And I think.
Speaker 1 (21:07):
That's what's really important. And I love this wort.
Speaker 3 (21:08):
I've just got this book thing, you know, there's lovely.
So I'm doctor Stephanie Burns. She has a theory around
agent I love of you on age and she says that,
you know, we all decide at a particular time in
our lives that whatever negative things that are happening to
us as suddenly are now because of our age. So
we may lose our keys, we may we may you know,
(21:30):
have aches and creeks in our body. You know, we
get someone's name, but at certain point in our lives,
usually in our fifties, we start to attribute that to age.
Speaker 1 (21:40):
You know.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
Then, so there's a mental part of it that that
we have to really look at.
Speaker 2 (21:46):
Faith and I are going to be back in a
minute to talk about the moment she knew she wasn't
going to become a mother. So Silver Sirens was born
from this observation that you were seeing. And I assume
that the Silver and the Sirens is about the gray hair.
It's also tied up with our identity, right is that
(22:07):
suddenly well, like I didn't think that's who I was.
Do you encourage the women in your worlds to embrace
a new identity as an older person, as a silver
siren or is it more about an evolution of who
you've always been.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
I think it's a bit of both, you know. I
mean there's there's a level of acceptance. I mean, the
thing is, no matter how much surgery you do, how
much denial there is around it, we're all going to
get old if we're lucky, you know, And it's a privilege.
I lost my sister forty one. She didn't have that privilege.
So we're all going to get old. So it's there's
a level of acceptance around there's a level of coming
to terms with that's a natural progression of being human. Okay,
(22:45):
how we age, However, we do have control to go
back to old thing we do have control over. So
for me, it's not about being an age denier.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Because we're gonna get old.
Speaker 3 (22:56):
But it's kind of like, can I take control of
how our age instead of dropping into despair and then
giving up and not trying and trying doesn't have to
be and going to get botal, but trying to be
What are the things I have I have control over
because I aways. So my philosophy around agent is like,
enhance the opportunities and address the challenges.
Speaker 1 (23:15):
So the challenges might be certain physical things.
Speaker 3 (23:18):
Do I need to do more exercise or exercise in
a different way, or make sure there's enough movement, or
do I need to change some of my diet. Those
are the things you can control, so you take control
of that, and there's something quite empowering. I see the
women when they take control of things they can, they
suddenly have this new zest of life, and the other
things send to shrink, you know that the despair around
(23:40):
oh my god, what's going on? And they start to
feel more vibrant in their bodies and they start to
shift the focus away from how they look to how
they feel.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
And that's powerful, That's.
Speaker 2 (23:50):
Really powerful, because that's I noticed it even in myself,
is that I feel like I've got loads of energy,
loads of ambition, loads of things I want to do.
And then sometimes I almost catch myself in the mirror
and I'm like, but who is that?
Speaker 1 (24:05):
Like? You?
Speaker 2 (24:06):
Like as in your you're getting old now. And I
wonder also if one of the things that can make
when when we visibly start to age, we can no
longer quite like we have to accept the fact that, yeah, right,
you know, my years are I'm shifting that balance between
having more years behind me, and sometimes that can be
(24:26):
very hard if there are areas in your life that
you've regretted or things you've wished you've done. And I've
heard you say, you know, like you can still do anything,
you might not be able to be a ballerina. I
think I think i've heard you say like in terms
of a career, but for big life things, it can
be hard to wrestle with that regret. And I've heard
you talk about your journey from being what you call
(24:47):
childless to child free, and I wonder if that is
something that you've well, I'm sure it's an area you've
learned a great deal about from that experience. Do you
mind telling us the story of your journey with becoming
a mum?
Speaker 3 (25:00):
Yeah, look, I think you know, I love to make
the distinction between childless and child free because that's what
I started off as childless. You know, I remember my
twenties traveling around.
Speaker 1 (25:10):
Europe, you know.
Speaker 3 (25:11):
I I was always an adventure and I loved going
out there and doing a lot of things. But always
in my mind was I was going to have children.
Like it was just I took it for granted. I
never thought for a moment that it would not be
open to me. So I kind of charged along and
did my life. You know. Then I get to my
late thirties, a relationship that I thought was going to
become a marriage falls apart, and I'm suddenly in this panic,
(25:32):
and then I have two or three relationships straight afterward.
Speaker 1 (25:35):
I'm kind of grappling.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
The men were not right, but I just wanted it
to be, you know, right enough for me to get
pregnant and have a family, you know. So there was
all of that scrambling, and then there was all of
my peers were starting to have children, and there was
that real loneliness of isolation and where they were all
forming mother's group and they were having conversations that I
could not contribute. There was a real sense of being
(25:58):
pushed out of and it was so painful, you know,
And I was making really bad choices in men because
I was so focused on it's going to be the
one you know. So that was painful. And I was
forty five, went and I know my then partner, I
had just gone to have his tests at the IVF
clinic because we were I just convinced him too, we
go into therapy, convinced him to agree to have a
child with me. He just went and had his tests
(26:21):
the day before, and we were on his balcony. We
weren't living together, We're on his balcony, and I just
remember it was like a light bulb moment. I just
went faith, you're forty five when your child is ten,
you're going to be fifty five. When your child is twenty,
you're going to be sixty five. Are you going to
have the energy? What sort of quality of mother and
are you're going to give the child? And what sort
of quality of life are you're going to have. It
was just suddenly like bang, and I just realized that no,
(26:44):
the ship had salled. And it was so painful, even
though it was a clear reality, it was so painful.
The ship was selled, and I had to go through
the process of accepting that, and that was really really painful.
You know, it's a lot of grief around that, this
thing that I took for granted. It's just never going
to be an option, you know. So that going through again,
did some therapy and really processed that grief and pain
(27:04):
around that, and then I came into this place where
there was all that acceptance, which is beautiful. What's what
happens with grief? You know, you land in this space
of acceptance. And I surveyed and it was like, wow,
my life now is mine? Yeah, you know, my money
is mine, like you.
Speaker 1 (27:19):
Know, I don't have to play school fees or college fees,
it's mine. What do I want to do?
Speaker 2 (27:23):
And then one of the possibility, one of the possibilities there.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
And then things shifted.
Speaker 3 (27:27):
It was like all the friends all in like in
their mum's group, and this lovely life that they had
that I envied was suddenly turned around, going, oh my god,
you're so lucky. Oh my god, you've just done that.
What if you just done oh my god? You know,
and suddenly I got this this right sizedness of there's
there's positive and challenges in both being a mom and
not being a mom, you know, and I was going
(27:48):
to do the absolute best that I could.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
That I had this life, this privileged life of.
Speaker 3 (27:52):
Not having to you know, put my life on hold
for someone else, or sacrifice for one else.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
And there was other ways of mothering.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, I've heard you speak about that.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
That's so important.
Speaker 2 (28:02):
What do you when you say other ways of mothering?
What do you What does that mean to you?
Speaker 1 (28:07):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (28:07):
Okay, Well, for me, I believe that I'm a natural nurturer,
you know, and I think building communities. Yeah, you know,
so that's for me. So for me, what are the
qualities of mothering?
Speaker 2 (28:18):
You know?
Speaker 3 (28:19):
For me, it's it's unconditional love, it's care, it's mothers
are always sacrificed and always thinking about not someone. I
feel that sacrifice a bit negative, but always considering the
well being and needs of other people, you know. And
I find for me it's something that I love doing.
I get to do it in my therapy, you know.
And some people believe the therapy is almost one of
(28:40):
the roles of the therapist is is playing the role
of the good mother. A lot of people have challenges
around their mother, but you come in and you play
that role.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
You model what that would look like.
Speaker 3 (28:48):
So you're giving them a some sort of unconditional love
and acceptance. And you know, in the relationships they get
to see that. So in that way, I get to
mother for sure. I get to mother in my friendships
a lot, because I'm definitely the person who if someone's said,
I'm bringing the castle role, you know, and having a
community like civil science, I had absolutely no idea that
I was actually building. I thought I was building the
(29:08):
community for other women. But I was built in the
community that I need that I'm going to grow into,
you know, interesting, and there's so much mothering in that.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
I think there's so much wisdom in like everything he
just said. But what the talking about that very painful
moment of letting go of this dream and then that
coming into an acceptance. If there's anyone listening to this
who's wrestled with that and going, I don't feel like
I'm there yet, Like I'm still in the sadness of
(29:38):
what I didn't get, the life I didn't get to have. Obviously,
you've said therapy helps a lot. Is there something that
you would share with them that would help them through that?
Speaker 1 (29:49):
Do you think?
Speaker 3 (29:50):
Look, I think the thing around time, I know it's
not sexy.
Speaker 1 (29:56):
Time, you know, and the thing is honor where you're at.
Speaker 3 (29:59):
You know, I'm really glad that I didn't have any
kind of pretend Pollyanna, you know, spiritual emotional bypassing, where
I've just kind of pretended I was okay before I was,
you know, it took time, and I'm really glad. So
I allowed myself to go there, allowed myself to own
the pain, allowed myself to own the jealousy that I had,
and I sort of thinking myself as a jealous person,
(30:20):
but I felt jealous, you know. So I allowed myself
just to own all of that. And I think that's
the thing. Don't much try and make yourself feel bad
for all the feelings that you're having one of them.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
That's natural, you know. And have a safe space to
share it.
Speaker 3 (30:33):
Doesn't have to be a therapist, but just have a
couple of good friends that you can just go and
share it with and not feel judged, you know. And
I think that's what's really important. Just give yourself time
and just keep being kind to yourself through the process.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
When we come back, Faith tells me about whether we're
getting better at understanding that happiness looks different for every
woman stay with us. Do you think that in general
and culture we're getting better at understanding that there are
lots of different ways to have a successful, happy life
as a woman, and it's not all about the picket
(31:06):
fence and the babies. Do you think we're getting better
at that?
Speaker 1 (31:09):
Think? So? I mean, I think you can see that everywhere.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
I mean, the amount of people that are not having
children is growing more and more. And we know that's
only that's figures only getting bigger, you know. So I
think that we're kind of accepting that you can have
a fulfilling life without it looking like the cookie cutter
that we've been told that they have to look like
this for it to be a successful life. That's changing,
and I think that's really exciting, you know. And I
think that, I mean, I always say, the human beings,
(31:31):
we're not in danger of being extinct. It's okay some
of us are opt out of having children. You know,
there are money of the mound.
Speaker 2 (31:37):
There are I also really love that when we were
talking before about your decisions about what to do with
this next phase of your life and your decision about
your career change, you mentioned money, which I really liked
that you did that. And I've seen you talk about
that and some of your videos and things about goals
because sometimes it seems a bit like frowned upon almost
(31:57):
for women to talk about money, like we're supposed we
do everything because we love it and we do everything,
you know, for other people and blah blah blah. But
financial security, particularly as you age, is really important. So
the fact that you even will say, like I knew
I wanted to choose a job that would pay me
well enough to be able for me to have like,
that's that's really important. Do you encourage women who you
(32:22):
work with to think about that too, and do you
think about finance?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
I challenged them a lot, you know, because a lot
of women will come to me they'll have some problems
around money. I mean, I've got so many clients who
and separation and divorce were completely shafted, you know, because
they didn't know what was really going on in their
financial life and their husband took care of it. And
I'm shocked the whistle has saying that. But that's still
the case for a lot of women, you know. So
a lot of them come and they've worked all their
(32:47):
lives and you know, brought up the kids, and now
they've left with literally nothing, you know. So I'm onto it,
and I really talk to my clients. I challenged them around,
you know, not being afraid to have the conversation.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
I poke them, you know.
Speaker 3 (33:01):
And I do it a lot with Silver Sirens as well.
And I try and be super transparent with Silver Sirens too,
because I pay for pretty much.
Speaker 1 (33:08):
You know.
Speaker 3 (33:08):
Everything's not very white is a community that I'm funding.
So it used to feel quite shameful for me to
own it, and I just thought, no, it's not realistic.
I'm not going to pretend to be where I'm not.
I'm going to say what's going on, you know. So
I've always tried to model that, and you know, through
through our content that we create as well and the resources.
I always try and make sure that we have money
experts to come in and talk to the women about
(33:30):
money often, you know, and we try and now we
separate our content into mounmth so June because it's the
end of financially in Australia that's all focused on finances,
and we've got loads of amazing experts now on board
to talk to the women because I want the women
to be empowered. We support the Older Women's Network their
homelessness program and I feel so passionate about that because
(33:52):
women have a fifty are the fastest growing coco and homelessness,
and we have to do something about that. And part
of that is awareness and we have to talk about
it is the women know, and a lot of women
that are ashamed so they don't even say to anybody
that they're sleeping in their cars.
Speaker 2 (34:07):
Scary, it's really scary sometimes. I mean it's a stereotype.
But women are resilient, right, we push on, we get
things done, We make the most of it, like you know,
make the most of a situation. But you know, you
can only be so resilient when you need to actually
be saying I'm not coping.
Speaker 1 (34:25):
Yeah, I'm not coping.
Speaker 2 (34:26):
That's exactly I've also heard you say. And I want
you to obviously tell me more about Silver Sirens, but
that one of the things that when you've asked your community,
and I assume this is through your work as well,
loneliness is a massive thing that came up. I found
that quite surprising. We're not surprising, but I think there
was a stat I was reading you were saying something
like seventy percent of the women you were said that
(34:46):
loneliness and connection or lack of connection was one of
the biggest things. What do you think is behind that?
And do you think that's also you know, we were
talking about cultural differences and how you know, in our
culture where we're scared of age and we don't value
necessarily our elders as much, why do you think this
(35:08):
cohort can feel so isolated?
Speaker 3 (35:11):
You know, as people are aging, you know, it's that
thing of they start to recede and disappear. You know,
we have those multi generational cultures where everyone is brought in,
you know, no matter what your age, every single member
of the family is kind of included, whereas now it's
almost like you get past a certain age and you're
no longer invited to things or people forget about you.
You know, and a lot of people too, you know,
(35:32):
they move away, or friends are dying, friends are moving away.
There's there again, is that there's a lot of different
factors that cause that. But again, when people find themselves
in that situation, they don't talk about it, nor do
they freach out a lot of you know, when we
first started exploring the loneliness, I started to have these
monthly virtual Silver Connection lunches I call them, and we know,
we get together and we bring food, and you know,
(35:54):
that's how the process started. And a lot of the
women just say they felt a lot of shame around
telling people that they felt lonely, you know. And we
also did a loneliness town hall where we just you know,
just open it up and people we've lived experiences, this
is a safe space for you to tell us what
that felt like.
Speaker 1 (36:08):
A lot of people what it was shame.
Speaker 3 (36:10):
You know, my friends have moved away all of this,
I've lost all of my contact, but I'm scared to
reach out. I'm scared to tell anybody. I feel shamed
to tell anybody that I feel like this. So then
they'll just withdraw and isolate and try and figure it
out by themselves, and their lives just gets shots and
the more shrunk and less and more more isolated.
Speaker 1 (36:29):
It's very sad to see.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I always remember my mother in law. She's not with
us anymore, but she described it very clearly to me
of what she didn't want to happen to her, but
that she said, I saw my mother's life go from
being out in the world with all these connections to
literally shrinking to her kitchen, like because she was literally
sitting at her kitchen table twenty four to seven, and
it was a very stark visual picture for me as.
Speaker 1 (36:54):
Of what the shrinking of your life.
Speaker 2 (36:56):
Yeah, so obviously your silver sirens in your community. You're
very much about connecting, Yeah, bringing the women together. What
do you love most about spending time with women in
this face of their lives?
Speaker 3 (37:10):
Look, I think the laughter, you know, and we talk about,
you know, a fewer folks to give, you know, we
talk about that, and that gets better as you age.
You know, I'm sixty next, and I'm expecting to be
dropping more fucks next every.
Speaker 1 (37:24):
Birthday, every birthday, you know.
Speaker 3 (37:26):
But I think there's a there's an honesty you know
that happens. And when we have our monthly lunches, you know,
we do a talking stick thing where we go around
the room. We do five minute stage and we talk
and you really see the women are very open and
they're very vulnerable, and they're very real, and there's a
richness in what they share, you know, and there's a
lot of laughter. There's something about again, it is that
(37:46):
thing where we take ourselves less seriously and we're not
so confined in this idea that I can't say that
because I don't want people to you know, to judge me,
or you know, that idea that we want that image
management and we get so stuck in I think my twenties,
thirties on some of my forties were so stuck in
that image management. That drops away, so you get to
see real people. So the connections are meaning for the deep.
(38:09):
They're rich, you know, and I walk away always feeling
fed by those You know, something very beautiful about it.
If you ever came to a civil sarer's event, that's
one thing you get straight away you walk through the door.
It's almost like I always say, you feel like it's
like it's like collectively.
Speaker 1 (38:22):
We all take off our bras.
Speaker 3 (38:25):
You just feel that you know, and everyone just relaxes,
and it's that this is who I am. And I
always get that feedback. It's like I'm totally accepted for
who I am, and for once, I don't have to
suck in my guard I don't have to do anything.
I can just relax completely.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
And I love that when you look so as you said,
you're turning sixty six in a few months, which is
you know, no age at all, when you with all
your experience and from where you began, as you were
saying of everyone wanted to be the old, the older person,
the elder, the wise. When you look at your what
I call like your proper old age, Like what kind
(39:02):
of elder do you want to be? What do you
see in twenty thirty years?
Speaker 3 (39:07):
So I know I often talk about being an elder
in training, you know, and it's it's a badge of
honor for me, you know. And I think that my sixties,
this decade, I really want it to be about intentional aging,
you know. And what that looks like for me is
I think we can kind of run through our lives
and we've got a few goals here and there, but
we're not intentional about how the people were becoming. So
(39:30):
for me, I want to be intentionally agent. And again,
doctor Stephanie Burns talks about, you know, she reminds us
that from the age of twenty to fifty, we've lived
thirty years, and so many things happen in those thirty years.
Speaker 1 (39:43):
Now from fifty to eighty, we're repeating.
Speaker 3 (39:46):
The same amount of time, so we're going to have
the same amount of possibilities and adventures, you know. So
when I think that that, yeah, when I think about that,
I think I did so much in my twenties to fifty, like,
how can I replicate that? But in you know, reflecting
to where I'm going. So I think about very much
being intentional ager and age and elder in training. I
(40:07):
think about what sort of elder do I want to be,
you know? And I want to stay curious, you know,
and for like ever learning, ever grow. And I think
one of the things that I see the people that
are struggling with aging is that curiosity is not there.
There's a sense that they've done everything they're supposed to do.
Now they're waiting.
Speaker 1 (40:24):
You know.
Speaker 2 (40:24):
We're almost like I don't fit in the world anymore
because it's made for the young people whatever. Yes, And
it's almost like your self select that you're out of
it rather than in.
Speaker 3 (40:34):
It exactly, So how do we stay in it? So
intentional aging for me is staying very much connected with life.
I don't think about it as being relevant. And sometimes
I hear the conversation I relevance that just annoys me
because I don't think we should be trying to be relevant.
Speaker 1 (40:47):
I think if we're just.
Speaker 3 (40:48):
Being and living life with curiosity, it's not about being relevant.
Speaker 1 (40:52):
What does it really mean?
Speaker 2 (40:53):
Because I mean I say that about myself. Sometimes I'm like,
oh my god, am I becoming irrelevant? And then but
what does that mean?
Speaker 3 (41:00):
Yeah, it's just another label that just again it constricts.
It's like the same as invisibility, you know. So for me,
it's really I think our biggest role as elders is
mentoring and being role models for the younger generation. I
think if we hide, disappear, shrink, we're not showing young
women that there's a lot to live for and they've
(41:20):
got this vibrant life ahead of us, and I think
it's a responsibility for us to show them the kind
of lives they can live, you know. And I take
that really seriously.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Like when you are talking at the beginning of our
conversation today about your mom, is your mom still with us?
She is, yeah, And how is she doing now?
Speaker 3 (41:36):
She's ata Well, she's not the sort of elder that
she would have liked to be because she had some
health issues which really slowed her down. You know, so
in terms of physical you know, mobility, it's quite as
more restrictive than she would be. She's always been quite
an active person, but she got ill about five years ago,
and that kind of really derailed her health. But in
terms of mental health, she's as sharp as a whistle.
(41:58):
She's still the person that everyone talks goes to. You know,
she's a matriarch and very much the center of our family.
Speaker 2 (42:04):
Yeah, oh well, I'm very happy to hear that.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
Faith.
Speaker 2 (42:09):
It's been amazing to talk to you today.
Speaker 1 (42:11):
I feel fool I love.
Speaker 2 (42:12):
Yeah, I loved it. I love there are so many
things I'm gonna have to slow down and think about that. Look,
if you loved this episode, and I obviously love talking
to Faith, I think I particularly found a lot of
revelation in that honest conversation about what happens when you
(42:34):
don't get what you want, which has happened to all
of us in very different ways, and how you deal
with it, and her honesty around the midlife crisis and
what came next. And if you want more conversations of
that level of honesty and intelligence, I encourage you to
flick back through mid because we've got loads of them.
Listen to Christine Anau, who I spoke to in season
(42:57):
one about She talks really honestly about the mistakes that
she made as a mother and how sometimes your adult
kids will turn around and talk to you about them,
and again you just have to accept what is rather
than what you think think should be. To Gina Chick,
who lived through the unimaginable of losing her little daughter
and about how she reimagined her life after that. And
(43:19):
with Ali Daddo, who, like Faith, was a model who's
you know, a lot of her life and self worth
was caught up with what she looked like when she
was younger and what does that feel like to let
go of as you get older. All of those conversations
you can find in our mid feed if you just
slick back. I can't thank you all enough for being
here with us as we have these meaningful conversations that
(43:41):
hopefully make you laugh a little bit too. We're going
to be back in your ears next week and until then,
big thanks to our team Executive producer Nama Brown, senior
producer Grace Rufray, our producer Tarlie Blackman, and our audio
producer Jacob Brown. See you next week.
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