January 31, 2024 • 17 mins
Most people would agree that chasing your passion is one of the great ways to achieve personal fulfilment. So how do you find passion in your professional life? And how do you do a job you're not passionate about? Join Helen McCabe and Jamila Rizvi as they explore the art of harnessing your passion at work and shaping a career you love.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, Helen
McCabe and Jamila Risby are sharing their practical advice on
apathy in your professional life and when and how to
unlock your passion instead.
Apathy's a kind of funny word. I think we, we
(00:22):
use it most when we're, we're talking about things like politics, right?
We talk about voters who are apathetic are the people
who have to vote, but really don't care and don't
really want to. But the fact is that apathy is
so much broader than that, and apathy can reach every
element of our lives, and it tends to show up
when
We are starting to feel a bit lethargic, a bit listless,
(00:45):
sort of invenerated. Almost like you, you're kind of like
paralysed to act, cause it's just all a bit too much,
and it almost has that tired feeling. And today, we're,
we're certainly not talking about it from a, from a mental, uh,
or physically ill health perspective. You and I aren't psychologists,
but I think we've all had that experience of how
apathy can present in your life, particularly around work, where
(01:07):
you feel
So overwhelmed and frustrated that you start to feel almost
nothing at all.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
And this is where it, um, impacts, um, listeners and
members of, um, some of our programmes because they wake
up and they've, they're being encouraged to search for work
or find new work. And the last thing they want
to do is to put themselves out there and find
a profession and try and find some connection or or, um,
(01:36):
passion for it. So,
What we want to do today is to help anyone
who's really in that, oh, I'm just over it, I
don't care. And that can be because you have so
much else going on in your life that you're not
apathetic about. You can be raising great kids, you might have, um,
great community connections, you might, um, be passionate about stuff
(01:58):
that doesn't involve a paycheck, but it is a really
damaging state to be in if you can't somehow tap into.
Um, some enthusiasm for kicking yourself out of that apathetic, uh,
approach to your working life. So, how does it present
an absence or suppression of emotion, feeling, concern, or passion?
(02:20):
It's a lack of motivation to do or complete anything?
It's a lack of a sense of purpose in the
absence of worthlessness and hopelessness. Um, it's sluggishness, low energy levels.
We've all been there. It's passive. Like, I'm just not
in this conversation because I just don't care enough. And
a general detachment or feeling stuck.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's how we all feel at around 3:30 or 4
in the afternoon, isn't it? When our cortisol levels drop
and suddenly the things that you were really excited about
this morning just feel a bit
A bit much, or, or, or how you feel the, the,
the morning after you've had a really late night or
a sleepless night and you're trying to get through a day,
and it's just harder, and you feel less into it.
(03:02):
And when that is starting to take over a whole
sphere of your life, for example, your working life or your,
your attempts to return to work, that's really hard, right?
And it can happen for a few different reasons.
I think firstly, um, if you are bored or you
are frustrated by your current routine, if you're stuck in
a boring, monotonous kind of rut, your brain starts to
tune out. Uh, you know, I, I bet we've all
(03:24):
been in a meeting where you're sort of sitting there
and you're like, you suddenly go, Oh, I don't know
what anyone said for the past 15 minutes. I went,
I went somewhere else. And it, it's demotivating, and it
means you're not so interested.
Um, definitely if you're not getting enough sleep. Not getting
enough sleep is, uh, 100%, um, going to lead to
a feeling of apathy. When you're tired, your brain slows
you down and your brain slows down, and it can
(03:46):
make you feel lazy, even when you are going around
a very busy day. Um, if you're not challenging yourself,
if you're not pushing yourself or trying new things, getting
outside your comfort zone occasionally, uh, that can create a
boredom and an apathy that kills motivation.
This is an interesting one if you're overwhelmed by choices. So,
(04:07):
we can actually feel apathetic in the face of too
many options, uh, if we feel like we're unable to
make a decision that can demotivate us. And then finally,
when we're trying to do too much at once, if
you are constantly in the juggle, trying to do too
many tasks, you get stressed, you get frustrated, and
That heightened state of stress, it's really hard to think
about what do I love, what gets me excited, what
(04:27):
am I passionate about. That's a, it's a difficult question
to answer when you're feeling really flat.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Do you have those days where you go, I'm just
so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of what I've got
to do, I'm just not gonna do much at all today.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I definitely have that feeling sometimes, um, especially if there's
a particular project.
Where I haven't got a clear plan of how to
start and how to go from A to Z and
what all the letters in between are going to look like.
Sometimes I feel like when it's so big, and I,
I start to dread starting because I know it's going
to be hard, you can kind of put yourself into
(05:02):
a stage of like, I just wish I was doing
anything else. I just don't wanna have to
Speaker 2 (05:06):
do it. And what do you do then? Start.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It's the only thing that helps and like, you know,
that sounds so pathetic because the starting is the hard bit, right?
But
So when I'm writing, if I'm writing a book, uh,
I always force myself to stop writing when I'm feeling
like I'm killing it. So I will sit down to write,
and if I am in flow, if I'm in a
great chapter and I'm all the words are just pouring
(05:30):
out of me, I force myself to stop somewhere in
the middle, rather than wait till the natural endpoint, because
if I stop at the natural endpoint or the accomplishment point,
then I will walk away and I will not come
back to it for months.
But if I stop when I don't wanna stop, when
I wanna be writing and I'm feeling really great, that
means that for the rest of the week, I'm going, Oh,
(05:52):
I just wanna be writing. I just wanna get back
to it. I just wanna get back to it. And
it sort of forces me into a state of motivation.
Whereas I think for me, that, that apathy tends to
show up when
It's the beginning of something, and I'm not quite sure
where I'm gonna start. Usually, once I'm going, the going
is enough. How about you? How does it show up
in your life? I've got a
Speaker 2 (06:11):
couple of answers to that question, and one is, I
go with apathy for the day. Just go, Yep, I
am not here today. I am not going to perform.
Um, and then do something that completely changes the wiring
of my brain. So, for me, that'll be reading fiction. Um,
and the other way is to just do the little things. So,
(06:31):
if I just can't handle the big stuff and I'm overwhelmed,
just find all those little boring jobs, whether it means
cleaning out the living cupboard.
Or, um, the, the family silver, just doing small things.
So I feel like I've kept the show on the
road and wait for the, the passion or the energy to,
to return, and it invariably does. And I haven't beaten
(06:54):
myself up that I've sat around watching the leaves all afternoon. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I feel like there's something there in that sort of
transition from being passive to being a problem solver. So,
If you try and go from 0 to 100, it's
almost impossible. But if you kind of go, I'm just
gonna do some small things, I'm gonna be do the doable,
easier task. I'm going to, you know, write myself a
contents page or I'm gonna do a piece of research
(07:20):
that's a bit mindless, or I'm gonna clear the emails
so I can sit in front of Netflix. But I'm
gonna do some task that's associated with the bigger picture,
because that'll start to ease your mind into it rather
than
Divorcing yourself from the thing you've got to do. And,
you know, working with our Jobs Academy members, I feel
like we see that a lot, um, where people are saying, I,
I feel so defeated that I just, I can't do
(07:42):
anything right now. I can't do anything. And as you say,
sometimes the best thing to do is to go with that.
But if you start to feel a bit stuck in it,
going from 0 to 100 in one day is really hard.
But if you can spend a little bit of time
doing some of the jobs, taking some of the actions.
Will start to move you along, um, that feel a
little bit easier. Instead of I'm gonna rewrite my whole
resume today, maybe it's, I'm going to go and try
(08:04):
and track down in my emails, my last few resumes.
That's all I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna go find
Speaker 2 (08:09):
them. Yeah, and I think that's, um, that's one of
the ways to kind of start to shift that energy
into something that, you know, develops into a full-blown, potentially,
an outcome or, um, a sense of direction.
So,
Speaker 1 (08:23):
let's talk about passion. We can talk about passion, because
we're trying to talk about how we get from apathy
to passion, right? And maybe this is a subversive, unfair question,
but do we need to be passionate? Do we want
to be like, what's the benefit of being passionate about something?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
When we sat down to this podcast today, I was, um,
reflecting on a, on a funeral that I went to
recently of a, of a man who, um, was incredibly
passionate about absolutely everything, and he, he
Was defined by doing so many different exciting, unusual, um,
career choices and innovations, 40 startups and big family and
(09:04):
a house full of people, and he was always cooking
and he was always coming up with the next idea
and
And it was one of those funerals where you feel
a bit self-conscious about not having, not flinging yourself. I
been doing with my dad. Yeah, so I, you know,
in terms of passion, I think you do have to
come to some, uh, some sense of what that means
(09:25):
for you and what, what, what passion is, what passion
is good and what passion is bad.
Because not everyone can live a big life and not,
not everyone wants to. Um, and yet, you can have
a passion for a very simple thing, and it may
be recreational. It doesn't have to be professional, um, that
becomes central to your life and is the thing that
(09:48):
brings you joy. So, passion is a, an unusual concept,
but for the purposes of this podcast, we're here to
help people, um, navigate their way.
Towards a fulfilling professional life, and that might just mean
a pay packet, or it might mean something bigger than that.
Um, so how do you do that?
(10:11):
And would you, Jan, would you say you're passionate about
one thing or passionate about lots of things? Passionate
Speaker 1 (10:15):
about lots of things. There you go. Um, passionate about
the feeling of being passionate, I would say. Like, I'm
just one of those enthusiastic people who, it's less about
the thing and more about the fact that we're doing
it and we're doing it with energy and zeal and
zest and all those other words.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Um, but that comes to you, that is how you
were born, don't you think?
Yes. OK. Yeah. So how do we teach someone who
wasn't born with that?
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I think it's about finding what you're passionate about. So
I think the first thing is, um, being a bit reflective, right?
Watching how you
Experience different things. So, start with your body language. How
does your body behave when you're doing your current work,
for example? Um, do you get tense? Does it ache
all the time? Do you get panic attacks? Do you
(11:01):
get bored? And do you feel sleepy when you're at work? Um,
do you look at the clock all of the time?
Are you constantly checking your phone? Are there signs that
your heart rate might not be where it should be?
I think our bodies betray how we feel about something.
Um, in the same way that when you're falling in love,
your body feels a particular way. I think it's worth
asking yourself, do I feel passionate about what I'm doing
(11:21):
right now? And when does my body language and the
way my body shows up change? And it might not
be around work, it might be around something else. Um,
I think another really great question is, what did you
love doing when you were a kid?
What did you love doing before all the pressures came about?
And I'm not saying that in, you know, in terms
of saying, OK, I was a stamp collector, I will
(11:42):
now become a professional stamp collector, like, you know, we're
gonna be practical here, folks. Um, yeah, I don't even
know if that's
Job. But, um, um, but I do think, uh, childhood
hobbies and obsessions and passions can not necessarily show a
true calling, but I think they can remind you what
made you smile then and what makes you smile now,
and then you can try and get to the core
(12:03):
of it.
So, for example, if you were a kid who did
love collecting stamps, maybe you loved collecting lots of stuff.
Start asking yourself, well, why? Did I just like to
have all of something? No, probably not. You were probably
interested in the history, or you were interested in how
you displayed those things in a beautiful way. Or you
were interested in, um, understanding how different sets of things
(12:25):
came together. So I think it, it's about pushing through the,
the surface questions to what's going on underneath, because an
interest in
Historical objects or an interest in, um, how you present
something in a way that's understandable and, um, easily digestible
and someone can follow, but is also beautiful. Like, that's
a skill that can be used in an enormous number
(12:47):
of jobs, right? I think it's about getting to the core,
rather than saying, I wanted to be a ballerina, but
I think I'm past my prime.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
And then you ask yourself what you're passionate about as
an adult. So it, it can be, um, you know,
you could still find yourself collecting shoes or collecting.
Antique spoons. Um, and there's, there's, there's a, there's a
consistency there. So, ask yourself what you love doing as
an adult, and whether that in any way intersects with
(13:16):
the job you're doing or the job you want to do.
Because I think too often we stray a long way
from where we began in life. And one of the
things that's worth doing, um, particularly in the middle of
your career, if you're
Um, struggling a bit, and we know so many of
you are with finding passion for your work, go back
to basics.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You started working life as a journalist. What you're doing
now is, there's some intersections, but it's quite different from
being a journalist. Is there a through line of the passion?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Probably people and storytelling. Um, I, I think, uh, when
I had a career crisis, um, I guess my late 40s,
early 50s, I was asked over and over again, what
do you love doing most? And I think the storytelling
is probably at the heart of what I do. Here
(14:08):
we are today on a podcast. Um,
And understanding other people's perspectives and telling their stories and
understanding what makes them tick is probably what is the
Constant factor, and if you think about the FW Jobs Academy,
that is understanding how women ended up in the academy
(14:28):
and how we can help them out of the academy
into
Um, meaningful work or study. So, I think that's the,
I think that's the constant factor. But it, it, you know,
anyone who's wondering about it right now, it's a lifelong journey,
this stuff. You're not really ever expected to know this stuff. Um,
you'll find out this stuff easily. It's, it's just part
of growing up.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah. And I think that finding passion is such an
important
Uh, part of your working life because you want to
get to a place where you are finding joy in
what you do, right? We spent an enormous amount of
time in work, so you want to be passionate about
it because otherwise, it truly is just collecting a paycheck
and waiting for the other hours. And maybe sometimes that's comfortable,
but I think for, for the long term, you want
(15:10):
to find some joy in, in that time that you're working.
Um, but at the same time, we need to be
sensible about it, right? We can't all do just what
we love and expect to be paid and paid well
for it. So, I love this Japanese concept, I called Ikegai, um,
and that translates, I believe, to your reason for being.
So the idea is that this is your life's purpose,
(15:32):
your passion, your bliss. It's what brings you joy, it's
what gets you out of bed every day. Um,
Uh, I think it's important to note here that, um,
this is traditional Japanese philosophy. It was about finding your bliss, generally,
and Western interpretation is like, how do you find your
dream job? And we, we, we, we've cut it down
a little bit, but it ruined it, probably. But it shows, um,
(15:53):
an intersection, um, intersecting circles, one of them being what
you love, one of them being what you're good at,
one of them being what you can be paid for,
and one of them being what the world needs.
Right now. And then, so if you think of 4
circles and then 1 circle in the middle that has
a little bit of each of those, that's what we're
looking for, because absolutely you need what you love. You
need that passion, because you're not going to find delight
(16:15):
at work and you're not going to try your hardest
and get the most out of it. But absolutely, you
also need to think about what you're good at, what
you can get paid for and what the world is
looking for right now and what the world needs, because
if those other elements aren't there, at least in some degree,
I mean, I don't think we're finding safe, secure work
at that point. We're probably all trying to be a
clown or a ballerina, right?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
But I also think, even if, uh, a job is
what you need, and you take a job, and it
can be stacking shelves or driving a bus, uh, it
is important to have something outside of that, that connects, um,
to a passion. So,
Passion is about not just your professional life, as the Japanese, um,
most surely meant when they came up with this, it
(16:57):
is about getting that, those two factors in balance.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Mindset is created by FW Jobs Academy with support from
the Australian government's Office for Women.
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, Helen
McCabe and Jamila Risby are sharing their practical advice on
apathy in your professional life and when and how to
unlock your passion instead.
Apathy's a kind of funny word. I think we, we
(00:22):
use it most when we're, we're talking about things like politics, right?
We talk about voters who are apathetic are the people
who have to vote, but really don't care and don't
really want to. But the fact is that apathy is
so much broader than that, and apathy can reach every
element of our lives, and it tends to show up
when
We are starting to feel a bit lethargic, a bit listless,
(00:45):
sort of invenerated. Almost like you, you're kind of like
paralysed to act, cause it's just all a bit too much,
and it almost has that tired feeling. And today, we're,
we're certainly not talking about it from a, from a mental, uh,
or physically ill health perspective. You and I aren't psychologists,
but I think we've all had that experience of how
apathy can present in your life, particularly around work, where
(01:07):
you feel
So overwhelmed and frustrated that you start to feel almost
nothing at all.
Speaker 2 (01:14):
And this is where it, um, impacts, um, listeners and
members of, um, some of our programmes because they wake
up and they've, they're being encouraged to search for work
or find new work. And the last thing they want
to do is to put themselves out there and find
a profession and try and find some connection or or, um,
(01:36):
passion for it. So,
What we want to do today is to help anyone
who's really in that, oh, I'm just over it, I
don't care. And that can be because you have so
much else going on in your life that you're not
apathetic about. You can be raising great kids, you might have, um,
great community connections, you might, um, be passionate about stuff
(01:58):
that doesn't involve a paycheck, but it is a really
damaging state to be in if you can't somehow tap into.
Um, some enthusiasm for kicking yourself out of that apathetic, uh,
approach to your working life. So, how does it present
an absence or suppression of emotion, feeling, concern, or passion?
(02:20):
It's a lack of motivation to do or complete anything?
It's a lack of a sense of purpose in the
absence of worthlessness and hopelessness. Um, it's sluggishness, low energy levels.
We've all been there. It's passive. Like, I'm just not
in this conversation because I just don't care enough. And
a general detachment or feeling stuck.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's how we all feel at around 3:30 or 4
in the afternoon, isn't it? When our cortisol levels drop
and suddenly the things that you were really excited about
this morning just feel a bit
A bit much, or, or, or how you feel the, the,
the morning after you've had a really late night or
a sleepless night and you're trying to get through a day,
and it's just harder, and you feel less into it.
(03:02):
And when that is starting to take over a whole
sphere of your life, for example, your working life or your,
your attempts to return to work, that's really hard, right?
And it can happen for a few different reasons.
I think firstly, um, if you are bored or you
are frustrated by your current routine, if you're stuck in
a boring, monotonous kind of rut, your brain starts to
tune out. Uh, you know, I, I bet we've all
(03:24):
been in a meeting where you're sort of sitting there
and you're like, you suddenly go, Oh, I don't know
what anyone said for the past 15 minutes. I went,
I went somewhere else. And it, it's demotivating, and it
means you're not so interested.
Um, definitely if you're not getting enough sleep. Not getting
enough sleep is, uh, 100%, um, going to lead to
a feeling of apathy. When you're tired, your brain slows
you down and your brain slows down, and it can
(03:46):
make you feel lazy, even when you are going around
a very busy day. Um, if you're not challenging yourself,
if you're not pushing yourself or trying new things, getting
outside your comfort zone occasionally, uh, that can create a
boredom and an apathy that kills motivation.
This is an interesting one if you're overwhelmed by choices. So,
(04:07):
we can actually feel apathetic in the face of too
many options, uh, if we feel like we're unable to
make a decision that can demotivate us. And then finally,
when we're trying to do too much at once, if
you are constantly in the juggle, trying to do too
many tasks, you get stressed, you get frustrated, and
That heightened state of stress, it's really hard to think
about what do I love, what gets me excited, what
(04:27):
am I passionate about. That's a, it's a difficult question
to answer when you're feeling really flat.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Do you have those days where you go, I'm just
so overwhelmed by the sheer volume of what I've got
to do, I'm just not gonna do much at all today.
Speaker 1 (04:40):
I definitely have that feeling sometimes, um, especially if there's
a particular project.
Where I haven't got a clear plan of how to
start and how to go from A to Z and
what all the letters in between are going to look like.
Sometimes I feel like when it's so big, and I,
I start to dread starting because I know it's going
to be hard, you can kind of put yourself into
(05:02):
a stage of like, I just wish I was doing
anything else. I just don't wanna have to
Speaker 2 (05:06):
do it. And what do you do then? Start.
Speaker 1 (05:08):
It's the only thing that helps and like, you know,
that sounds so pathetic because the starting is the hard bit, right?
But
So when I'm writing, if I'm writing a book, uh,
I always force myself to stop writing when I'm feeling
like I'm killing it. So I will sit down to write,
and if I am in flow, if I'm in a
great chapter and I'm all the words are just pouring
(05:30):
out of me, I force myself to stop somewhere in
the middle, rather than wait till the natural endpoint, because
if I stop at the natural endpoint or the accomplishment point,
then I will walk away and I will not come
back to it for months.
But if I stop when I don't wanna stop, when
I wanna be writing and I'm feeling really great, that
means that for the rest of the week, I'm going, Oh,
(05:52):
I just wanna be writing. I just wanna get back
to it. I just wanna get back to it. And
it sort of forces me into a state of motivation.
Whereas I think for me, that, that apathy tends to
show up when
It's the beginning of something, and I'm not quite sure
where I'm gonna start. Usually, once I'm going, the going
is enough. How about you? How does it show up
in your life? I've got a
Speaker 2 (06:11):
couple of answers to that question, and one is, I
go with apathy for the day. Just go, Yep, I
am not here today. I am not going to perform.
Um, and then do something that completely changes the wiring
of my brain. So, for me, that'll be reading fiction. Um,
and the other way is to just do the little things. So,
(06:31):
if I just can't handle the big stuff and I'm overwhelmed,
just find all those little boring jobs, whether it means
cleaning out the living cupboard.
Or, um, the, the family silver, just doing small things.
So I feel like I've kept the show on the
road and wait for the, the passion or the energy to,
to return, and it invariably does. And I haven't beaten
(06:54):
myself up that I've sat around watching the leaves all afternoon. Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
I feel like there's something there in that sort of
transition from being passive to being a problem solver. So,
If you try and go from 0 to 100, it's
almost impossible. But if you kind of go, I'm just
gonna do some small things, I'm gonna be do the doable,
easier task. I'm going to, you know, write myself a
contents page or I'm gonna do a piece of research
(07:20):
that's a bit mindless, or I'm gonna clear the emails
so I can sit in front of Netflix. But I'm
gonna do some task that's associated with the bigger picture,
because that'll start to ease your mind into it rather
than
Divorcing yourself from the thing you've got to do. And,
you know, working with our Jobs Academy members, I feel
like we see that a lot, um, where people are saying, I,
I feel so defeated that I just, I can't do
(07:42):
anything right now. I can't do anything. And as you say,
sometimes the best thing to do is to go with that.
But if you start to feel a bit stuck in it,
going from 0 to 100 in one day is really hard.
But if you can spend a little bit of time
doing some of the jobs, taking some of the actions.
Will start to move you along, um, that feel a
little bit easier. Instead of I'm gonna rewrite my whole
resume today, maybe it's, I'm going to go and try
(08:04):
and track down in my emails, my last few resumes.
That's all I'm gonna do. I'm just gonna go find
Speaker 2 (08:09):
them. Yeah, and I think that's, um, that's one of
the ways to kind of start to shift that energy
into something that, you know, develops into a full-blown, potentially,
an outcome or, um, a sense of direction.
So,
Speaker 1 (08:23):
let's talk about passion. We can talk about passion, because
we're trying to talk about how we get from apathy
to passion, right? And maybe this is a subversive, unfair question,
but do we need to be passionate? Do we want
to be like, what's the benefit of being passionate about something?
Speaker 2 (08:40):
When we sat down to this podcast today, I was, um,
reflecting on a, on a funeral that I went to
recently of a, of a man who, um, was incredibly
passionate about absolutely everything, and he, he
Was defined by doing so many different exciting, unusual, um,
career choices and innovations, 40 startups and big family and
(09:04):
a house full of people, and he was always cooking
and he was always coming up with the next idea
and
And it was one of those funerals where you feel
a bit self-conscious about not having, not flinging yourself. I
been doing with my dad. Yeah, so I, you know,
in terms of passion, I think you do have to
come to some, uh, some sense of what that means
(09:25):
for you and what, what, what passion is, what passion
is good and what passion is bad.
Because not everyone can live a big life and not,
not everyone wants to. Um, and yet, you can have
a passion for a very simple thing, and it may
be recreational. It doesn't have to be professional, um, that
becomes central to your life and is the thing that
(09:48):
brings you joy. So, passion is a, an unusual concept,
but for the purposes of this podcast, we're here to
help people, um, navigate their way.
Towards a fulfilling professional life, and that might just mean
a pay packet, or it might mean something bigger than that.
Um, so how do you do that?
(10:11):
And would you, Jan, would you say you're passionate about
one thing or passionate about lots of things? Passionate
Speaker 1 (10:15):
about lots of things. There you go. Um, passionate about
the feeling of being passionate, I would say. Like, I'm
just one of those enthusiastic people who, it's less about
the thing and more about the fact that we're doing
it and we're doing it with energy and zeal and
zest and all those other words.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Um, but that comes to you, that is how you
were born, don't you think?
Yes. OK. Yeah. So how do we teach someone who
wasn't born with that?
Speaker 1 (10:40):
I think it's about finding what you're passionate about. So
I think the first thing is, um, being a bit reflective, right?
Watching how you
Experience different things. So, start with your body language. How
does your body behave when you're doing your current work,
for example? Um, do you get tense? Does it ache
all the time? Do you get panic attacks? Do you
(11:01):
get bored? And do you feel sleepy when you're at work? Um,
do you look at the clock all of the time?
Are you constantly checking your phone? Are there signs that
your heart rate might not be where it should be?
I think our bodies betray how we feel about something.
Um, in the same way that when you're falling in love,
your body feels a particular way. I think it's worth
asking yourself, do I feel passionate about what I'm doing
(11:21):
right now? And when does my body language and the
way my body shows up change? And it might not
be around work, it might be around something else. Um,
I think another really great question is, what did you
love doing when you were a kid?
What did you love doing before all the pressures came about?
And I'm not saying that in, you know, in terms
of saying, OK, I was a stamp collector, I will
(11:42):
now become a professional stamp collector, like, you know, we're
gonna be practical here, folks. Um, yeah, I don't even
know if that's
Job. But, um, um, but I do think, uh, childhood
hobbies and obsessions and passions can not necessarily show a
true calling, but I think they can remind you what
made you smile then and what makes you smile now,
and then you can try and get to the core
(12:03):
of it.
So, for example, if you were a kid who did
love collecting stamps, maybe you loved collecting lots of stuff.
Start asking yourself, well, why? Did I just like to
have all of something? No, probably not. You were probably
interested in the history, or you were interested in how
you displayed those things in a beautiful way. Or you
were interested in, um, understanding how different sets of things
(12:25):
came together. So I think it, it's about pushing through the,
the surface questions to what's going on underneath, because an
interest in
Historical objects or an interest in, um, how you present
something in a way that's understandable and, um, easily digestible
and someone can follow, but is also beautiful. Like, that's
a skill that can be used in an enormous number
(12:47):
of jobs, right? I think it's about getting to the core,
rather than saying, I wanted to be a ballerina, but
I think I'm past my prime.
Speaker 2 (12:53):
And then you ask yourself what you're passionate about as
an adult. So it, it can be, um, you know,
you could still find yourself collecting shoes or collecting.
Antique spoons. Um, and there's, there's, there's a, there's a
consistency there. So, ask yourself what you love doing as
an adult, and whether that in any way intersects with
(13:16):
the job you're doing or the job you want to do.
Because I think too often we stray a long way
from where we began in life. And one of the
things that's worth doing, um, particularly in the middle of
your career, if you're
Um, struggling a bit, and we know so many of
you are with finding passion for your work, go back
to basics.
Speaker 1 (13:37):
You started working life as a journalist. What you're doing
now is, there's some intersections, but it's quite different from
being a journalist. Is there a through line of the passion?
Speaker 2 (13:48):
Probably people and storytelling. Um, I, I think, uh, when
I had a career crisis, um, I guess my late 40s,
early 50s, I was asked over and over again, what
do you love doing most? And I think the storytelling
is probably at the heart of what I do. Here
(14:08):
we are today on a podcast. Um,
And understanding other people's perspectives and telling their stories and
understanding what makes them tick is probably what is the
Constant factor, and if you think about the FW Jobs Academy,
that is understanding how women ended up in the academy
(14:28):
and how we can help them out of the academy
into
Um, meaningful work or study. So, I think that's the,
I think that's the constant factor. But it, it, you know,
anyone who's wondering about it right now, it's a lifelong journey,
this stuff. You're not really ever expected to know this stuff. Um,
you'll find out this stuff easily. It's, it's just part
of growing up.
Speaker 1 (14:49):
Yeah. And I think that finding passion is such an
important
Uh, part of your working life because you want to
get to a place where you are finding joy in
what you do, right? We spent an enormous amount of
time in work, so you want to be passionate about
it because otherwise, it truly is just collecting a paycheck
and waiting for the other hours. And maybe sometimes that's comfortable,
but I think for, for the long term, you want
(15:10):
to find some joy in, in that time that you're working.
Um, but at the same time, we need to be
sensible about it, right? We can't all do just what
we love and expect to be paid and paid well
for it. So, I love this Japanese concept, I called Ikegai, um,
and that translates, I believe, to your reason for being.
So the idea is that this is your life's purpose,
(15:32):
your passion, your bliss. It's what brings you joy, it's
what gets you out of bed every day. Um,
Uh, I think it's important to note here that, um,
this is traditional Japanese philosophy. It was about finding your bliss, generally,
and Western interpretation is like, how do you find your
dream job? And we, we, we, we've cut it down
a little bit, but it ruined it, probably. But it shows, um,
(15:53):
an intersection, um, intersecting circles, one of them being what
you love, one of them being what you're good at,
one of them being what you can be paid for,
and one of them being what the world needs.
Right now. And then, so if you think of 4
circles and then 1 circle in the middle that has
a little bit of each of those, that's what we're
looking for, because absolutely you need what you love. You
need that passion, because you're not going to find delight
(16:15):
at work and you're not going to try your hardest
and get the most out of it. But absolutely, you
also need to think about what you're good at, what
you can get paid for and what the world is
looking for right now and what the world needs, because
if those other elements aren't there, at least in some degree,
I mean, I don't think we're finding safe, secure work
at that point. We're probably all trying to be a
clown or a ballerina, right?
Speaker 2 (16:36):
But I also think, even if, uh, a job is
what you need, and you take a job, and it
can be stacking shelves or driving a bus, uh, it
is important to have something outside of that, that connects, um,
to a passion. So,
Passion is about not just your professional life, as the Japanese, um,
most surely meant when they came up with this, it
(16:57):
is about getting that, those two factors in balance.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
Mindset is created by FW Jobs Academy with support from
the Australian government's Office for Women.
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