January 31, 2024 • 14 mins
How do you turn fear into courage? The naturally risk-averse Helen McCabe sits down with Jamila Rizvi and shares how she stares fear down to do the hard things, and who inspires her to be her most courageous self.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, Helen
McCabe and Jamila Risby are turning fear into courage.
So, Helen, what we've learned from Shelly is that courage
is not this inherent, uh, unalterable trait that everyone has.
(00:22):
It's something that we can cultivate, something that we can strengthen,
something that we can learn, something that we can get
better at. Do you think you've become more courageous over
the course of your career?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I think I'm extremely risk averse. Um, I think I've
always taken calculated risks, um, but the
The thing that I really want to impart to this
audience is that
Uh, you can do that if you can look your
(00:52):
fears in the eye. So, in other words, uh, I've
got a job interview, I don't want to go, I'm terrified. Um,
I'd much rather stay in bed. I know it's gonna
be a disaster because every other job interview's been a disaster.
So what I would do in that circumstance is think,
what is the worst thing that can happen in this
(01:15):
job interview?
And for me, that would be them saying, you're wildly unsuitable,
don't ever come back again, and I'm not quite sure
how you got here in the first place, right? That
would be the worst thing that could happen to me. Um,
and once I've processed that and realised that that is
what really bad looks like, I can work back from
that and go, well, I can cope with that. So
(01:36):
I find courage by
Imagining the worst thing, and then think, well, the upside
is that go, they go, actually, you're amazing. So can
we call you back for a second interview?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
That's a really interesting way of doing it. The idea
of actually going into the truth of the thing that
you're actually scared of and
Like, kind of swimming around in the water of what
you're scared of, as opposed to sort of standing on
the edge, looking at it going, Ah, that looks real bad.
I don't want to go in there.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Well, that, that's right, and that's because I'm risk averse. Like,
I don't, uh, many of the people listening to this
podcast will be like, I am scared, I don't want
it to go wrong. I've got too much at risk. Um,
my self-worth's at risk, or I'm already lacking confidence because
I keep getting a no.
Um, and I have a lot of that. Like, uh,
you know, I think as women, we have a lot
of that. I think we are lacking courage because life
(02:30):
is harder on us every time we put ourselves out there. Um,
so I've had to find techniques to push me into
doing things that terrify me.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
When I think about it myself, I, I think of
that concept of, um, an internal and external locus of control.
So this is this psychological concept that says that some
of us think that
Events and outcomes in our life are happening to us,
and some of us think about ourselves as having a
lot of control over what happens to us. So if
(03:01):
you've got an external locus of control, you think that
most of what's gonna happen to you at work is
bit of luck, bit of fate, powerful other people, gender inequality,
and if you have an internal locus of control, you think,
you know, I'm the master of my own destiny. I
am someone who can
Um, impact what's going to happen around me, and I
can persuade other individuals. And
(03:23):
When I look at something like that, I think I've
got quite a, I think I've got quite a strong
internal locus of control at work. I, I do think
in a career sense, I've got a lot of control.
But in other parts of my life, I'm very external,
and I think I've got no control, and I'm not
good enough, and I'm not sure. And from talking with
friends and colleagues over time, one of the things I've
(03:43):
noticed that is that a lot of women tend to
have that external locus of control at work. And I think, uh,
that there is a perception of this is
This is the world happening to me. I'm not in control.
And I think a lot of that does come from,
you know, the, the gender norms and feeling outside of
things at work, and feeling like you're not part of something,
(04:04):
feeling like you're not welcome, which can be really scary.
And I think it takes courage to say, I can
change this, especially when you've had experiences in the past
that have suggested,
You weren't able to change something.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Well, well, absolutely. And I think, you know, if I
think about a lot of our jobs academy members, they've, um,
tackled often considerable disadvantage and been knocked around so much
that sitting here and saying, have courage is, you know,
is a tough thing to ask of them. But
Our objective today is to try and help uh uncover
(04:40):
the techniques that many people draw on in order to
do it, and I think one of the things for
me has always been
Um, that finding that courage means that I don't look
back with regret. That I, that I do have a go,
because if I don't have a go, uh, and I
(05:02):
sit in my lounge room and I think that it's
never gonna work out for me, um, it will never
work out for me.
So I push myself to doing the things that require
a lot of courage, because I don't want to get
to 5 years on and go, why did I not
accept that speech or, um, write that, that opinion piece
(05:25):
or stand up for that person, um, when I had
an opportunity to do so.
Um, and so it's really a bit of fear of
missing out that motivates me alongside of, um, having a long,
hard look at what's the worst thing that could happen.
And the worst thing that could happen is, you know,
I don't get the job, or I never do that
(05:49):
extra piece of study, um,
Uh, the upside often is so much better than, than
the potential downside. What do you, what do you do
when it's, when that fear kicks in and you've got
a
I actually tap into courage to do something.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
For me, fear tends to tap in when I don't
feel like I'm in control of the situation.
The control freak is really coming across in a strong way,
isn't it? When I feel like I'm, I'm not in
control of, never do this with your box like. Uh,
when I feel like I'm not in control of a situation,
I feel very anxious. Um, when I trust the person
who is in control, I'm more comfortable because I, I
(06:30):
feel like, well, that's a good idea. You, you know, I'm,
I'm comfortable getting on a plane because I know that
pilot will do a better job than me.
Uh, so I, someone else is in control who I trust.
But in most situations at work, I like to feel
a degree of control. And so for me, I think
it's recognising that a lot of what I'm trying to
control cannot be controlled. And so, I am, I think,
(06:54):
in a constant state of finding courage by accepting that.
It's not possible to control everything and control every outcome.
As you say, if you apply for the job and
you think about all the possible outcomes, well, in the end,
all you can control is how well you show up
in that interview, how you present, how you prepare, um,
(07:17):
what kind of, uh, things you say and examples you share.
If you go into that room and the person on
the other side of the tables in a really bad mood,
cause they had a rubbish night up with a baby
that wouldn't sleep, and they're rude to you.
That's not in your control. Um, if you walk into
that interview setting and you're having a conversation with someone
and they say, but we want someone with 10 years'
(07:39):
experience in X and you don't have that, you can't
control that right now. There's nothing you can do with that.
And so for me, I find courage only comes when
I'm consistently trying to push back against the need for control,
and to let go of the things I can't control
and just focus on the ones that I can, and
throwing everything at the ones that I can.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
One of the other things that, um, has motivated me
on a number of occasions is looking at someone that
I know who's demonstrated extreme courage. So, um, I'm gonna
name someone who's, um, when I say extreme courage, I
mean extreme courage. But, um, looking at them and saying,
if they can get out of bed every morning and
(08:19):
take a couple of extra steps, um, I can apply
for the job, give the speech, have the fight.
Um, and that person's Turia Pitt, who I had the
benefit of getting to know, um, pretty early on in her, uh,
decision to go public with
Her struggle to survive a, uh, bushfire that she ran into.
(08:44):
Um, while doing an ultramarathon in the north of Australia,
and she suffered burns to 65% of her body and
spent years and years and years in recovery. Uh, now runs, um,
ultramarathons all over the world, has walked the Kokoda Trail
and done the Great Wall of China and runs her
own business. So, her courage is next level. But I
(09:06):
often think about her and go, uh, how did she
find courage? What was that about? And if she can
She can stand up every day with the scars and
the pain that she has to endure to this day, then,
you know, I can probably give it another go.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I also think, uh, we talk a lot about confidence
and women and employers in particular talk about that a lot. They,
you know, like, oh, I'd promote more women, but it's
just the younger women, they're lacking in confidence. And
Firstly, that annoys me, but, second, I think confidence can
feel really.
Like, it's a, it's an ongoing state. Like if I'm
(09:44):
to be a confident person, I will become confident, and
then I have to be confident always. Whereas courage feels
more micro, it feels more attainable. Like, I'm being courageous
in this today. I don't have to be courageous all
the time. I can get back under the doona and
hide there later, but I am gonna be courageous in
this small act.
So I think the willingness to start with the incremental
(10:05):
and trying the, the, the smaller things first, and then
recognising that courage in one part of our life can
transfer to courage in another part of your life. So,
if you're someone who feels like you are always feeling afraid, um,
about pursuing what you want in your career, think about
areas of your life where you have been courageous and
(10:26):
recognise that you can do it. Because I bet there's
been times where
You know, you've, you've been there at a truly difficult
time for an unwell relative. Takes, takes courage to show
up when someone's seriously ill, or maybe you have, uh,
you know, pushed something to happen at your kid's school
and you've pushed for some sort of community event to happen.
Takes courage to stick your hand up and say we
(10:46):
should do something that we weren't already doing to a
whole bunch of people. Um, so sometimes it's
Drawing on courage in other areas of your life to
help fuel the, the area where it doesn't feel like
it's
Speaker 2 (10:55):
possible. Yeah, you always see that, um, local hero who
saves a child from a, from a truck or a, um,
or from, or from any, uh, catastrophe. And they, you
ask them afterwards, what drove them, and they don't know.
It's an instant courage just becomes an instant reaction. Um,
and I think that's a, a good point. Actually, don't
overthink it. Um, just, just tap into courage and
(11:19):
Uh, have a go and, um, don't spend that much
time thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Folks, I want to leave you with one final thought.
There was a study conducted by some researchers called Cotterell
and Harvey in 2005, and they had all these participants
in their study who were tasked with identifying their area
of worry. And so they had to actually articulate the
things they were scared were gonna happen in their lives.
And then the researchers tracked.
them over a period of time and kept checking in
(11:43):
with them with these deeper questions and things. And what
they found was that after the, the 12 month period
or whatever it was that they ran the study, 40%
of the big fears, uh, that were initially, um, uh,
identified proved to be unfounded. They, they pertained to an
event or something happening that never happened and was never
going to happen. That's 40%. 30% of the worries were retrospective. 30%
(12:06):
of people were worried about something that had happened in
the past that had already happened and they couldn't alter it.
And so, a further 12% were worries about health-related matters,
the majority that didn't materialise in the course of the
study either. So if you add all of that up,
you're already at 82% of the worries and the fears
were not necessary at all. Uh, and just completely, uh,
(12:29):
consumed these people for a long period of time. So
it's a, it's a reminder that just because you're scared
about it doesn't mean it's anything more, any more likely
to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Thanks, Jan. So, in summary, our advice is, imagine what
the worst thing is that could happen, and then work
backwards from there. Risks lead to all the good things
happening in your life. So not taking a risk can
lead to regret. And tap into those moments where you
have shown.
Courage. There should have been moments where you surprised yourself,
(12:59):
and they're the moments you should try to recall and
tap into that sensation.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Finally, single acts of courage can be a bit easier
than trying to say, I'm gonna be a more confident
person now. I'm gonna be a courageous person. This doesn't
have to be an end state, a single point of
being in the same way you can't achieve happines.
And then just stay there forever. You have periods of happiness,
work on those single acts of courage, try and be
courageous in the moment rather than all the time, and
(13:27):
remember to start small. And finally, recall that study. Most
of the things we worry about never eventuate, and we've
spent an enormous amount of time worrying and stressing and
being scared and being afraid of something that will never
actually happen.
Mindset is created by FW Jobs Academy with support from
(13:48):
the Australian government's Office for Women.
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, Helen
McCabe and Jamila Risby are turning fear into courage.
So, Helen, what we've learned from Shelly is that courage
is not this inherent, uh, unalterable trait that everyone has.
(00:22):
It's something that we can cultivate, something that we can strengthen,
something that we can learn, something that we can get
better at. Do you think you've become more courageous over
the course of your career?
Speaker 2 (00:32):
I think I'm extremely risk averse. Um, I think I've
always taken calculated risks, um, but the
The thing that I really want to impart to this
audience is that
Uh, you can do that if you can look your
(00:52):
fears in the eye. So, in other words, uh, I've
got a job interview, I don't want to go, I'm terrified. Um,
I'd much rather stay in bed. I know it's gonna
be a disaster because every other job interview's been a disaster.
So what I would do in that circumstance is think,
what is the worst thing that can happen in this
(01:15):
job interview?
And for me, that would be them saying, you're wildly unsuitable,
don't ever come back again, and I'm not quite sure
how you got here in the first place, right? That
would be the worst thing that could happen to me. Um,
and once I've processed that and realised that that is
what really bad looks like, I can work back from
that and go, well, I can cope with that. So
(01:36):
I find courage by
Imagining the worst thing, and then think, well, the upside
is that go, they go, actually, you're amazing. So can
we call you back for a second interview?
Speaker 1 (01:50):
That's a really interesting way of doing it. The idea
of actually going into the truth of the thing that
you're actually scared of and
Like, kind of swimming around in the water of what
you're scared of, as opposed to sort of standing on
the edge, looking at it going, Ah, that looks real bad.
I don't want to go in there.
Speaker 2 (02:07):
Well, that, that's right, and that's because I'm risk averse. Like,
I don't, uh, many of the people listening to this
podcast will be like, I am scared, I don't want
it to go wrong. I've got too much at risk. Um,
my self-worth's at risk, or I'm already lacking confidence because
I keep getting a no.
Um, and I have a lot of that. Like, uh,
you know, I think as women, we have a lot
of that. I think we are lacking courage because life
(02:30):
is harder on us every time we put ourselves out there. Um,
so I've had to find techniques to push me into
doing things that terrify me.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
When I think about it myself, I, I think of
that concept of, um, an internal and external locus of control.
So this is this psychological concept that says that some
of us think that
Events and outcomes in our life are happening to us,
and some of us think about ourselves as having a
lot of control over what happens to us. So if
(03:01):
you've got an external locus of control, you think that
most of what's gonna happen to you at work is
bit of luck, bit of fate, powerful other people, gender inequality,
and if you have an internal locus of control, you think,
you know, I'm the master of my own destiny. I
am someone who can
Um, impact what's going to happen around me, and I
can persuade other individuals. And
(03:23):
When I look at something like that, I think I've
got quite a, I think I've got quite a strong
internal locus of control at work. I, I do think
in a career sense, I've got a lot of control.
But in other parts of my life, I'm very external,
and I think I've got no control, and I'm not
good enough, and I'm not sure. And from talking with
friends and colleagues over time, one of the things I've
(03:43):
noticed that is that a lot of women tend to
have that external locus of control at work. And I think, uh,
that there is a perception of this is
This is the world happening to me. I'm not in control.
And I think a lot of that does come from,
you know, the, the gender norms and feeling outside of
things at work, and feeling like you're not part of something,
(04:04):
feeling like you're not welcome, which can be really scary.
And I think it takes courage to say, I can
change this, especially when you've had experiences in the past
that have suggested,
You weren't able to change something.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Well, well, absolutely. And I think, you know, if I
think about a lot of our jobs academy members, they've, um,
tackled often considerable disadvantage and been knocked around so much
that sitting here and saying, have courage is, you know,
is a tough thing to ask of them. But
Our objective today is to try and help uh uncover
(04:40):
the techniques that many people draw on in order to
do it, and I think one of the things for
me has always been
Um, that finding that courage means that I don't look
back with regret. That I, that I do have a go,
because if I don't have a go, uh, and I
(05:02):
sit in my lounge room and I think that it's
never gonna work out for me, um, it will never
work out for me.
So I push myself to doing the things that require
a lot of courage, because I don't want to get
to 5 years on and go, why did I not
accept that speech or, um, write that, that opinion piece
(05:25):
or stand up for that person, um, when I had
an opportunity to do so.
Um, and so it's really a bit of fear of
missing out that motivates me alongside of, um, having a long,
hard look at what's the worst thing that could happen.
And the worst thing that could happen is, you know,
I don't get the job, or I never do that
(05:49):
extra piece of study, um,
Uh, the upside often is so much better than, than
the potential downside. What do you, what do you do
when it's, when that fear kicks in and you've got
a
I actually tap into courage to do something.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
For me, fear tends to tap in when I don't
feel like I'm in control of the situation.
The control freak is really coming across in a strong way,
isn't it? When I feel like I'm, I'm not in
control of, never do this with your box like. Uh,
when I feel like I'm not in control of a situation,
I feel very anxious. Um, when I trust the person
who is in control, I'm more comfortable because I, I
(06:30):
feel like, well, that's a good idea. You, you know, I'm,
I'm comfortable getting on a plane because I know that
pilot will do a better job than me.
Uh, so I, someone else is in control who I trust.
But in most situations at work, I like to feel
a degree of control. And so for me, I think
it's recognising that a lot of what I'm trying to
control cannot be controlled. And so, I am, I think,
(06:54):
in a constant state of finding courage by accepting that.
It's not possible to control everything and control every outcome.
As you say, if you apply for the job and
you think about all the possible outcomes, well, in the end,
all you can control is how well you show up
in that interview, how you present, how you prepare, um,
(07:17):
what kind of, uh, things you say and examples you share.
If you go into that room and the person on
the other side of the tables in a really bad mood,
cause they had a rubbish night up with a baby
that wouldn't sleep, and they're rude to you.
That's not in your control. Um, if you walk into
that interview setting and you're having a conversation with someone
and they say, but we want someone with 10 years'
(07:39):
experience in X and you don't have that, you can't
control that right now. There's nothing you can do with that.
And so for me, I find courage only comes when
I'm consistently trying to push back against the need for control,
and to let go of the things I can't control
and just focus on the ones that I can, and
throwing everything at the ones that I can.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
One of the other things that, um, has motivated me
on a number of occasions is looking at someone that
I know who's demonstrated extreme courage. So, um, I'm gonna
name someone who's, um, when I say extreme courage, I
mean extreme courage. But, um, looking at them and saying,
if they can get out of bed every morning and
(08:19):
take a couple of extra steps, um, I can apply
for the job, give the speech, have the fight.
Um, and that person's Turia Pitt, who I had the
benefit of getting to know, um, pretty early on in her, uh,
decision to go public with
Her struggle to survive a, uh, bushfire that she ran into.
(08:44):
Um, while doing an ultramarathon in the north of Australia,
and she suffered burns to 65% of her body and
spent years and years and years in recovery. Uh, now runs, um,
ultramarathons all over the world, has walked the Kokoda Trail
and done the Great Wall of China and runs her
own business. So, her courage is next level. But I
(09:06):
often think about her and go, uh, how did she
find courage? What was that about? And if she can
She can stand up every day with the scars and
the pain that she has to endure to this day, then,
you know, I can probably give it another go.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
I also think, uh, we talk a lot about confidence
and women and employers in particular talk about that a lot. They,
you know, like, oh, I'd promote more women, but it's
just the younger women, they're lacking in confidence. And
Firstly, that annoys me, but, second, I think confidence can
feel really.
Like, it's a, it's an ongoing state. Like if I'm
(09:44):
to be a confident person, I will become confident, and
then I have to be confident always. Whereas courage feels
more micro, it feels more attainable. Like, I'm being courageous
in this today. I don't have to be courageous all
the time. I can get back under the doona and
hide there later, but I am gonna be courageous in
this small act.
So I think the willingness to start with the incremental
(10:05):
and trying the, the, the smaller things first, and then
recognising that courage in one part of our life can
transfer to courage in another part of your life. So,
if you're someone who feels like you are always feeling afraid, um,
about pursuing what you want in your career, think about
areas of your life where you have been courageous and
(10:26):
recognise that you can do it. Because I bet there's
been times where
You know, you've, you've been there at a truly difficult
time for an unwell relative. Takes, takes courage to show
up when someone's seriously ill, or maybe you have, uh,
you know, pushed something to happen at your kid's school
and you've pushed for some sort of community event to happen.
Takes courage to stick your hand up and say we
(10:46):
should do something that we weren't already doing to a
whole bunch of people. Um, so sometimes it's
Drawing on courage in other areas of your life to
help fuel the, the area where it doesn't feel like
it's
Speaker 2 (10:55):
possible. Yeah, you always see that, um, local hero who
saves a child from a, from a truck or a, um,
or from, or from any, uh, catastrophe. And they, you
ask them afterwards, what drove them, and they don't know.
It's an instant courage just becomes an instant reaction. Um,
and I think that's a, a good point. Actually, don't
overthink it. Um, just, just tap into courage and
(11:19):
Uh, have a go and, um, don't spend that much
time thinking about it.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
Folks, I want to leave you with one final thought.
There was a study conducted by some researchers called Cotterell
and Harvey in 2005, and they had all these participants
in their study who were tasked with identifying their area
of worry. And so they had to actually articulate the
things they were scared were gonna happen in their lives.
And then the researchers tracked.
them over a period of time and kept checking in
(11:43):
with them with these deeper questions and things. And what
they found was that after the, the 12 month period
or whatever it was that they ran the study, 40%
of the big fears, uh, that were initially, um, uh,
identified proved to be unfounded. They, they pertained to an
event or something happening that never happened and was never
going to happen. That's 40%. 30% of the worries were retrospective. 30%
(12:06):
of people were worried about something that had happened in
the past that had already happened and they couldn't alter it.
And so, a further 12% were worries about health-related matters,
the majority that didn't materialise in the course of the
study either. So if you add all of that up,
you're already at 82% of the worries and the fears
were not necessary at all. Uh, and just completely, uh,
(12:29):
consumed these people for a long period of time. So
it's a, it's a reminder that just because you're scared
about it doesn't mean it's anything more, any more likely
to happen.
Speaker 2 (12:37):
Thanks, Jan. So, in summary, our advice is, imagine what
the worst thing is that could happen, and then work
backwards from there. Risks lead to all the good things
happening in your life. So not taking a risk can
lead to regret. And tap into those moments where you
have shown.
Courage. There should have been moments where you surprised yourself,
(12:59):
and they're the moments you should try to recall and
tap into that sensation.
Speaker 1 (13:04):
Finally, single acts of courage can be a bit easier
than trying to say, I'm gonna be a more confident
person now. I'm gonna be a courageous person. This doesn't
have to be an end state, a single point of
being in the same way you can't achieve happines.
And then just stay there forever. You have periods of happiness,
work on those single acts of courage, try and be
courageous in the moment rather than all the time, and
(13:27):
remember to start small. And finally, recall that study. Most
of the things we worry about never eventuate, and we've
spent an enormous amount of time worrying and stressing and
being scared and being afraid of something that will never
actually happen.
Mindset is created by FW Jobs Academy with support from
(13:48):
the Australian government's Office for Women.
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