January 31, 2024 • 21 mins
How do you believe in yourself? Helen McCabe and Jamila Rizvi share a few tips and tricks thanks to their new favourite term, self-efficacy.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. In this episode,
Helen McCabe and Jamila Risvie are back talking about times
they've experienced self-doubt and how they challenge themselves to get
to a point of self-belief.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Helen, today we're talking about self-doubt, and Shelly's already given
us an idea of, of what self-doubt is and how
it impacts us. But I want to start on the
fact that although we're trying to get to a place
of self-belief, self-doubt can be a good thing too, right? Well, yes,
it gives us time to pause and reflect on what's
happened in our lives and where we might like to go.
(00:45):
And I think it's a universal feeling.
Um, and if you don't have some of it, then
that can be alarming for everyone around you.
Um, and you know, you and I have commented on
people that we've jointly known from time to time that
they have almost no self-doubt and it's admirable, um, but
(01:07):
it does make managing people with no self-doubt really difficult. Yeah, well,
if you, if you've got literally no or very little self-doubt.
What, what is the motivation to learn? If you think
you know everything already and you're fine, then are you
going to reflect on your experiences and where things went
wrong and work out how you can do better, or
(01:28):
are you gonna be a bit blind to that and
a bit like, Nah, I'm fine. It wasn't me, it
was something else. That's right. And so, as a manager
of someone with no self-doubt, you almost give up because
you don't see the point in calling that meeting to say, Hey,
this went wrong last week. How do we fix it? Uh, because,
you know, it's not gonna land.
Um, so self-doubt is a bit like everything we're talking
(01:49):
about in this series. A bit of it is, is
really helpful, and what we're here to do is to
help people tap into the good bits, um, but not
let it overcome you and move into an area where
it's debilitating and crippling and you, you can't push forward, um,
when you're in a difficult set of circumstances. Have you, uh,
(02:11):
either yourself or people you're close to, have you
Had that experience of self-doubt that's held you back and
where you can look back on it, or
Look back on it for others in your lives and go, Oh, wow,
that really did have a negative impact. That wasn't keeping
me safe. That was keeping me in a place I
shouldn't have been. I, I don't think self-doubt's something I
(02:33):
have suffered a lot from, and I might even be
in the category where a bit more of it might
have been a good thing. I, um, I think back
now on some of the things that I've done and gone, I,
I just have no idea how I
Pushed through to do that when I wasn't an expert
(02:53):
or the best or, um, you know, particularly gifted at it. Um,
so I think I was always raised with a fair
amount of self-confidence, and that has been really
Uh, helpful. Um, but I do look back now and
wonder whether a bit more self-doubt would have been a
(03:13):
good thing at times. I think it's also interesting that
you mention I was raised with, right? Because I do
think so much of this is to do with our
upbringing and whether or not we are instilled with a
sense of self-belief and self-confidence from the, from when we're kids.
And I think a lot of people do carry that through.
And perhaps if you're someone who, in your childhood and
(03:33):
in your teen years, you were not given a lot
of self-belief, and you were someone who was taught to
doubt yourself, maybe this is a point of reminder to say,
even though I wasn't raised with that, didn't mean those.
Doubts were true, didn't mean that I was any less
capable than anyone else. And is it time to see
if you can start cultivating a little bit more self-belief
(03:55):
because that self-belief is worthy, and that self-belief is, is
definitely due to you. Let's use it to your advantage.
And I definitely think young girls and young women are, um,
subjected to all sorts of pressures pretty early in their
life that undermine self-confidence and, and, and tap into self-doubt.
Um, and the, the male masculine culture that you can
(04:21):
find yourself in in your high school years, um, you know,
all the way through to your early twenties when you're
in bars, uh, etc. can really undermine if you find
yourself in the wrong spot at the wrong time.
You're being judged about your looks, um, you're being, you've
been judged, um, about where you come from. I mean,
(04:42):
people will judge you for a whole range of, um,
things that are beyond your control, and it can just
start to eat away at a young woman, and I
see it so often. So, it is, this particular podcast
episode is, is super important, um, to me, and I
know to you too, because it's something we see.
(05:02):
Uh, 40 years later, in the job market, um, and
you see a woman whose self-confidence and self-belief has been
knocked around from a very early age, and, um, it
is hard to tap back into it, but I think
you can. And, uh, and I think it's really important
that you mindfully try to tap back into it.
(05:25):
Uh, in order to not continue to find yourself in
that cycle where you are undermining your own potential. And
sometimes that shows up as impostor syndrome, right? This idea that, um,
self-doubt is not something you're experiencing in moderation. It's something
that really, uh, is overtaking your life and it can
become really chronic and debilitating, and your, your self-doubt gets
(05:49):
the better of you when you get to a place
of imposter syndrome.
Um, to a place where you think that even the
things that you do in your life, your accomplishments, your work, uh,
your skills, actually, you don't deserve to be where you're
at at the moment, um, that you're not entitled to
what you've achieved, and that one day someone is going
(06:10):
to figure out that actually, you shouldn't be there and
is going to boot you out of the role or
the position or the place or the organisation that you're,
you're working or, or, um, uh, connected to. And I
Uh, we, we were saying just before we turned the
mics on that impostor syndrome is something we've often associated
with women, but that the research shows is just as
common amongst men. Absolutely. And, um, in, uh, Another Life,
(06:35):
when I'm doing the leadership podcast, uh, I speak to
a lot of experts who are career coaches who coach
men and women, and they're very quick to say, imposter syndrome, um,
is it the fore of very successful men. So,
Uh, I think it's worth mentioning just because, um.
I, it might help some women feel better about themselves
(06:57):
if they know that really senior men are, are, are
struggling with the, with the same, the same issues. And
there are ways that you can overcome impostor syndrome. So
I'm gonna give you a couple of quick tips before
we move on to self-efficacy and self-belief. So, the first
one is
That if you're feeling that imposter sense that, oh, God,
I can't possibly write that, or I can't possibly perform
(07:17):
in that job, or I can't possibly take that promotion, um,
or I can't possibly apply for that role because I'm
not up to it. I don't have the skills or experience,
remind yourself that
Your impostor syndrome does not make you an imposter. It
just means you've got something to address. Um, go and
find external validation. This is the time for your friends
(07:39):
and family and colleagues or former colleagues to come to
the fore and tell you how good you are, uh,
because sometimes you do need that guidance and that validation of,
of who you are and what you've achieved in that reminder.
And then,
I really recommend letting past you do some of that
validation as well. So, on those days, uh, whether it's
in your, in your working life or in other parts
(08:01):
of your life, you know, whether you're volunteering or involved
in the community, and you do receive a piece of
really beautiful, positive feedback, save it to a folder in
your emails and go back there and visit it when
you're feeling that sense of impostor syndrome, or keep a, a,
a
Notepad opened in your phone, um, uh, where you can
go back and go, Right, Oh, that's right. I remember
(08:21):
there was that time Helen told me I did a
really good job at this, or there's that time that the, uh,
principal at the school said, We would never have organised
the fight without you. You were incredible. Or there was
that time that my, um, former boss told me that actually, uh,
the way I thought about that particular problem, if we
hadn't got to that way of thinking, we would never
have solved it.
So, keep ways that will validate and push against that
(08:44):
imposter feeling and remind you that actually, you're someone who
is absolutely worthy of worthy of what's possible. All right,
then let's recognise how to overcome, uh, self-doubt and
Move forward, understanding the power of self-efficacy. So, self-efficacy is
a weird phrase, right? Like, it's not one you hear
(09:06):
very often. I think we tend to hear about things
like self-belief or self-esteem, but this is a little bit different,
and I, I actually think it's more impactful. So, self-efficacy
is your belief that you have the ability to achieve
a goal. And so there's a bit of confidence in
there about your ability to control your behaviour and to
be motivated and to influence others. Um,
(09:27):
Uh, but it's a bit different to self-esteem, in the
sense that this is about your ability to succeed in
a particular situation. It's not about how you value yourself
and your own worth. It's separating your ability to do
the do the job and achieve something from who you are.
And I think if you are, you know, putting yourself
(09:48):
out there and taking risks, if you're looking for a
new job or if you're trying for a promotion, or
you're taking on a project that you've never tried before,
If you look at self-efficacy, that says to you, I
believe I can do this and I'm going to have
a go. But it also means that if you don't
get there, if you miss out on the job, if
you don't quite pull off the project the way you
wanted to, that doesn't impact your self-esteem. That doesn't impact
(10:10):
who you are as a person. You are still someone
who is valuable and important and has a contribution to make.
So it separates you from the project, if that makes sense.
In 1998, a psychological study found that employees with high
self-efficacy tended to set more challenging goals for themselves, persist
longer in the face of obstacles, and ultimately achieve higher
(10:33):
levels of success. So this is a really good thing. Yeah,
and I mean, who wouldn't want to hire that person, right? Like,
you and I look at that as, as people who
employ people and you go, yeah, I want someone who
is persistent around obstacles. I want someone who's gonna challenge themselves,
and I want someone who's going to
Succeed. Um, similarly, there's been studies that have shown that, um,
(10:53):
self-efficacy is associated with academic achievement, um, and students, uh,
achieving more of what they wanted to. It's also, um,
something that is used, uh, people with high self-efficacy are
more likely to be able to overcome or change an
addictive behaviour, including quitting smoking or improving their health through
diet or exercise. So, it's not to say that if
you've got higher self-efficacy, you're not gonna start smoking, but
(11:14):
you're gonna be someone who's more likely to be able
to quit when you want to.
So the behaviours, um, to look out for are they
develop a deeper interest in the activities in which they participate.
They form a stronger sense of commitment to their interests
and activities, uh, recover quickly from setbacks and disappointments, and
view challenging problems as tasks to be mastered. Oh, I
(11:37):
wish I was someone that did that. I wish there
was like a complicated problem, and I was able to go.
I shall master this problem as opposed to going, Oh God,
we've got a really big problem. Yeah, well, exactly. I
was about to say the same thing, and that just
sounds too good to be true. I don't know, but
I suppose that's what we're aiming for, right? That you can,
you can look at the problem as a, as a
challenge and something you believe that you're capable of solving.
(11:58):
And usually that's where you try to get to after
you've done, you cry and you scream and you're shouting
into the void, right? So people with a weak sense
of self-efficacy avoid challenging tasks or new opportunities, believe that
difficult tasks and situations are beyond their capabilities. Focus on
Personal failings and negative outcomes and quickly lose confidence in
personal abilities. How do we get to good? Yeah. Well,
(12:22):
there's a few different ways we can master this idea
of self-efficacy, and the first one is just doing the
thing and doing it well.
Um, the literature calls this mastery experiences, folks. But what
it means is that if you think you're not good
at job interviews, and you do a job interview and
you nail it and you get the job, that improves
your self-efficacy, because you go, look, I did it before.
(12:43):
I think I could do it again.
So as we get better at things, um, as we
do them and we prove to ourselves what's possible, that
can improve our self-efficacy. Uh, social modelling really helps, which
means witnessing other people, especially people who we feel some
kind of kinship with or we feel are similar to us.
And I think we've all had those people, whether, you know,
it was in your, in your education or in your
(13:04):
working life where you're
Like, Oh yeah, we're kind of similar. We're kind of
good at similar stuff. If you see them being stretched
and achieving something, it often creates a belief that you
could do the same thing. And I, you know, I
know I've had that in my own working life, and,
you know, sometimes it can show up as, as less
admirable traits, right? Like jealousy. But when you see someone
who you think is similar to you achieving something,
(13:27):
Even if you do feel a little bit envious, you
also are saying to yourself, yeah, I could, I could
do that. I could do that. Absolutely, I could. And
that can be really motivating. There's social persuasion, which is
where you are persuaded by the encouragement of people whose
opinions you trust. And then finally, we can build self-efficacy
through our own responses and emotional reactions. So,
(13:47):
Um, if you're someone who is experiencing really high levels
of stress or, um, you're feeling, um, really emotional about
a situation, it's gonna be difficult to try and build
self-efficacy when that's happening. So, in summary, um, acknowledge the positive, uh,
don't brush off compliments or dismiss your achievements as luck,
which Jamila has written an entire book, book about, um,
(14:09):
Not just lucky, and, and that is something we try
very hard at FW to do. Um, talk to yourself positively.
Speak to yourself as you would a best friend. Be supportive, kind,
and understanding. Be kind when you make a mistake.
Jen, I feel like we should pause on that one
because so many of our Jobs Academy members are so
hard on themselves. Yes. And I, one of the things
(14:30):
I always notice in mentoring sessions, almost wish I wish
we could tape them and show them back to people,
is there'll be someone who completely berates themselves and talks
themselves down during a mentoring session. And then I see
them building someone else up and being so kind and
so generous to someone else who's experiencing the same problem.
And, and you just want to say to them, if,
(14:51):
if only you could give yourself the same grace and
the same kindness that you're giving this total stranger in
a mentoring session, could you just be a bit kinder
to yourself, a bit easier on yourself, because, uh, talking
to yourself and reminding yourself how rubbish you are all
the time, of course, you're gonna start to believe it. Yeah,
they call it in other, um,
Formats, um, monkey brain, where your brain can't stop, you
(15:13):
just go over and over again and you berate yourself
and you're mean to yourself, and, um, it is wildly unhelpful. I,
I do think in that circumstance, you do have to
pull yourself out and go and find techniques to somehow
short circuit that, and often it happens in the middle
of the night.
Um, but try and short circuit that process because if
(15:34):
you let that process continue to drive your entire career life, um,
you will forever be chasing your tail. So, the monkey brain, um,
be kind to yourself, stop the, stop the negative thoughts, um,
really super important for
Um, building self-efficacy. And on that, I think the, the
stop the negative thoughts is also a hard one, right?
(15:55):
Because you're like, well, how am I supposed to stop?
I'm having all the thoughts. Um, and often I think
what Helen just said there is really important is that
even just stepping away from having the thought to observing
the fact you're having the thought and going interesting.
Situation X has caused me to start saying sentence Y
to myself. OK, that's interesting. Why have I jumped so
(16:18):
quickly from that happening to me to thinking this about myself?
And next time it happens, go, Was there a similar
thing that caused that caused me to do that? Was
there a similar thing that pushed me into that thinking? OK.
That's interesting. I wonder why I did that. And I
think even just asking yourself questions starts to make you
a bit more self-aware and less inclined to just fall
deep into that, that self-hate. Yeah, don't give into it. Um,
(16:42):
even if you are mindful enough to realise that it's
going on, and you pull yourself up and you stop
and you consciously push them to, to one side, they're
gonna come back, right? Those thoughts come back. So, gotta
stop again. And you gotta keep stopping and you gotta
keep working on stopping it because
Uh, until you do, it's going to control you. I
(17:04):
want to recommend, and again, practise as I, as I,
as I say, folks, not as I do, but we've
got to stop comparing ourselves to other people as, and it, it,
it is really difficult to do that. Sometimes it does
feel like you're on a, you're on a racetrack, right?
And you're all, you've all ended up at a different
point and you feel like, but we all started at
the same place. How did we end up here? But
you just told us a indigo that it can be
(17:26):
good for you.
If you compare yourself to someone who's going well, yes,
that's true. I think it can be motivating. Yeah, you've
pulled me up. That's very true. I do think it
can be motivating, but I also think you can start
berating yourself with it. But that's right, you're making, you're
making different points, and there's quite, they're quite specific points.
So rather than making a comparison to yourself that's negative,
make a comparison to yourself that's positive. Let's go, that's
(17:48):
what you mean.
That's why a good combination. Um, I, I think what
Helen says is absolutely critical, folks. It's like, you know,
when you're making that comparison, see the possibilities for you
as opposed to the frustration that someone else did something
that you haven't been able to do yet.
Um, if you do need to do some self-reflection, if
you do need to do a bit of, uh, you know,
looking back on what you've done or thinking about the
(18:09):
fact that maybe you've made an error or you're not
sure about something, do it with someone you trust, do
it with someone who is going to hold you to
account and not let you dwell on all the bad stuff,
but is going to be honest about your strengths, um,
and honest about your areas for improvement. Uh, plan for success, um,
and set realistic goals. And, um, when you hit one,
(18:30):
Set yourself a new one and just keep, and keep
moving up those goals. Jamila, I feel like before we
end this particular episode, um, I should just ask you
how you have managed, um, to build your own self-efficacy,
because many people listening to this will go, very talented person,
has had an incredible career, uh, but it's not always
(18:52):
that way, is it? No, God, absolutely not. Like, I
think we all have, um,
Areas of our lives and our working lives where we
fall over. And I, you know, I had the experience, um,
about 5 or 6 years ago where I, how I
look changed dramatically after being unwell. And I'd been doing
a lot of television, and I just was like, well,
I'm not doing that anymore. I'm just not doing it anymore,
(19:14):
because the belief of being effective at being able to
do that had been completely shattered. Now,
You know, the smart people and sensible people will go, No,
we're not, we don't care about how you look. We
were interested in what you were going to say. Well, sure,
but a lot of people watch television with no sound,
and a lot of people, uh, especially people who don't
like you, are gonna be negative about how you look.
(19:35):
That's the world we live in. It's something we're trying
to change. But I think I grew so scared of that,
and my sense of self-belief had been so deeply eroded,
and then I just kept reinforcing it by not doing it.
And because by not doing it, people stopped asking me
to do it because I said no the last 3 times.
And I took that as another sign of not being wanted.
(19:59):
And so that negative self-talk and that erosion of self-belief
got worse and worse and worse. And honestly, it was
only by deciding to do it anyway, and committing and saying,
I'm gonna just do it again, and I'm gonna force
myself through the incredible discomfort of doing this and the
incredibly deep.
Dislike of doing this, that I think I managed to
(20:21):
redevelop that sense of efficacy. Because by doing it again,
you know, it goes to that, that idea I talked
about before of the, of the mastery experience, right? Once
you've had the experience and you see that the sky
didn't fall, and actually it was quite good and someone says,
Well done, your brain starts to go, Oh, OK, maybe
it wouldn't be a disaster if I did that, cause
I have this one single piece of evidence that tells me,
(20:42):
It was fine, and then if you do it again,
then you've got two pieces of evidence that tell you,
actually it was fine. And I think it's been quite
a slow and deliberate rebuilding of that to feel OK again.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Mindset is created by FW Jobs Academy with support from
the Australian government's Office for Women.
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. In this episode,
Helen McCabe and Jamila Risvie are back talking about times
they've experienced self-doubt and how they challenge themselves to get
to a point of self-belief.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Helen, today we're talking about self-doubt, and Shelly's already given
us an idea of, of what self-doubt is and how
it impacts us. But I want to start on the
fact that although we're trying to get to a place
of self-belief, self-doubt can be a good thing too, right? Well, yes,
it gives us time to pause and reflect on what's
happened in our lives and where we might like to go.
(00:45):
And I think it's a universal feeling.
Um, and if you don't have some of it, then
that can be alarming for everyone around you.
Um, and you know, you and I have commented on
people that we've jointly known from time to time that
they have almost no self-doubt and it's admirable, um, but
(01:07):
it does make managing people with no self-doubt really difficult. Yeah, well,
if you, if you've got literally no or very little self-doubt.
What, what is the motivation to learn? If you think
you know everything already and you're fine, then are you
going to reflect on your experiences and where things went
wrong and work out how you can do better, or
(01:28):
are you gonna be a bit blind to that and
a bit like, Nah, I'm fine. It wasn't me, it
was something else. That's right. And so, as a manager
of someone with no self-doubt, you almost give up because
you don't see the point in calling that meeting to say, Hey,
this went wrong last week. How do we fix it? Uh, because,
you know, it's not gonna land.
Um, so self-doubt is a bit like everything we're talking
(01:49):
about in this series. A bit of it is, is
really helpful, and what we're here to do is to
help people tap into the good bits, um, but not
let it overcome you and move into an area where
it's debilitating and crippling and you, you can't push forward, um,
when you're in a difficult set of circumstances. Have you, uh,
(02:11):
either yourself or people you're close to, have you
Had that experience of self-doubt that's held you back and
where you can look back on it, or
Look back on it for others in your lives and go, Oh, wow,
that really did have a negative impact. That wasn't keeping
me safe. That was keeping me in a place I
shouldn't have been. I, I don't think self-doubt's something I
(02:33):
have suffered a lot from, and I might even be
in the category where a bit more of it might
have been a good thing. I, um, I think back
now on some of the things that I've done and gone, I,
I just have no idea how I
Pushed through to do that when I wasn't an expert
(02:53):
or the best or, um, you know, particularly gifted at it. Um,
so I think I was always raised with a fair
amount of self-confidence, and that has been really
Uh, helpful. Um, but I do look back now and
wonder whether a bit more self-doubt would have been a
(03:13):
good thing at times. I think it's also interesting that
you mention I was raised with, right? Because I do
think so much of this is to do with our
upbringing and whether or not we are instilled with a
sense of self-belief and self-confidence from the, from when we're kids.
And I think a lot of people do carry that through.
And perhaps if you're someone who, in your childhood and
(03:33):
in your teen years, you were not given a lot
of self-belief, and you were someone who was taught to
doubt yourself, maybe this is a point of reminder to say,
even though I wasn't raised with that, didn't mean those.
Doubts were true, didn't mean that I was any less
capable than anyone else. And is it time to see
if you can start cultivating a little bit more self-belief
(03:55):
because that self-belief is worthy, and that self-belief is, is
definitely due to you. Let's use it to your advantage.
And I definitely think young girls and young women are, um,
subjected to all sorts of pressures pretty early in their
life that undermine self-confidence and, and, and tap into self-doubt.
Um, and the, the male masculine culture that you can
(04:21):
find yourself in in your high school years, um, you know,
all the way through to your early twenties when you're
in bars, uh, etc. can really undermine if you find
yourself in the wrong spot at the wrong time.
You're being judged about your looks, um, you're being, you've
been judged, um, about where you come from. I mean,
(04:42):
people will judge you for a whole range of, um,
things that are beyond your control, and it can just
start to eat away at a young woman, and I
see it so often. So, it is, this particular podcast
episode is, is super important, um, to me, and I
know to you too, because it's something we see.
(05:02):
Uh, 40 years later, in the job market, um, and
you see a woman whose self-confidence and self-belief has been
knocked around from a very early age, and, um, it
is hard to tap back into it, but I think
you can. And, uh, and I think it's really important
that you mindfully try to tap back into it.
(05:25):
Uh, in order to not continue to find yourself in
that cycle where you are undermining your own potential. And
sometimes that shows up as impostor syndrome, right? This idea that, um,
self-doubt is not something you're experiencing in moderation. It's something
that really, uh, is overtaking your life and it can
become really chronic and debilitating, and your, your self-doubt gets
(05:49):
the better of you when you get to a place
of imposter syndrome.
Um, to a place where you think that even the
things that you do in your life, your accomplishments, your work, uh,
your skills, actually, you don't deserve to be where you're
at at the moment, um, that you're not entitled to
what you've achieved, and that one day someone is going
(06:10):
to figure out that actually, you shouldn't be there and
is going to boot you out of the role or
the position or the place or the organisation that you're,
you're working or, or, um, uh, connected to. And I
Uh, we, we were saying just before we turned the
mics on that impostor syndrome is something we've often associated
with women, but that the research shows is just as
common amongst men. Absolutely. And, um, in, uh, Another Life,
(06:35):
when I'm doing the leadership podcast, uh, I speak to
a lot of experts who are career coaches who coach
men and women, and they're very quick to say, imposter syndrome, um,
is it the fore of very successful men. So,
Uh, I think it's worth mentioning just because, um.
I, it might help some women feel better about themselves
(06:57):
if they know that really senior men are, are, are
struggling with the, with the same, the same issues. And
there are ways that you can overcome impostor syndrome. So
I'm gonna give you a couple of quick tips before
we move on to self-efficacy and self-belief. So, the first
one is
That if you're feeling that imposter sense that, oh, God,
I can't possibly write that, or I can't possibly perform
(07:17):
in that job, or I can't possibly take that promotion, um,
or I can't possibly apply for that role because I'm
not up to it. I don't have the skills or experience,
remind yourself that
Your impostor syndrome does not make you an imposter. It
just means you've got something to address. Um, go and
find external validation. This is the time for your friends
(07:39):
and family and colleagues or former colleagues to come to
the fore and tell you how good you are, uh,
because sometimes you do need that guidance and that validation of,
of who you are and what you've achieved in that reminder.
And then,
I really recommend letting past you do some of that
validation as well. So, on those days, uh, whether it's
in your, in your working life or in other parts
(08:01):
of your life, you know, whether you're volunteering or involved
in the community, and you do receive a piece of
really beautiful, positive feedback, save it to a folder in
your emails and go back there and visit it when
you're feeling that sense of impostor syndrome, or keep a, a,
a
Notepad opened in your phone, um, uh, where you can
go back and go, Right, Oh, that's right. I remember
(08:21):
there was that time Helen told me I did a
really good job at this, or there's that time that the, uh,
principal at the school said, We would never have organised
the fight without you. You were incredible. Or there was
that time that my, um, former boss told me that actually, uh,
the way I thought about that particular problem, if we
hadn't got to that way of thinking, we would never
have solved it.
So, keep ways that will validate and push against that
(08:44):
imposter feeling and remind you that actually, you're someone who
is absolutely worthy of worthy of what's possible. All right,
then let's recognise how to overcome, uh, self-doubt and
Move forward, understanding the power of self-efficacy. So, self-efficacy is
a weird phrase, right? Like, it's not one you hear
(09:06):
very often. I think we tend to hear about things
like self-belief or self-esteem, but this is a little bit different,
and I, I actually think it's more impactful. So, self-efficacy
is your belief that you have the ability to achieve
a goal. And so there's a bit of confidence in
there about your ability to control your behaviour and to
be motivated and to influence others. Um,
(09:27):
Uh, but it's a bit different to self-esteem, in the
sense that this is about your ability to succeed in
a particular situation. It's not about how you value yourself
and your own worth. It's separating your ability to do
the do the job and achieve something from who you are.
And I think if you are, you know, putting yourself
(09:48):
out there and taking risks, if you're looking for a
new job or if you're trying for a promotion, or
you're taking on a project that you've never tried before,
If you look at self-efficacy, that says to you, I
believe I can do this and I'm going to have
a go. But it also means that if you don't
get there, if you miss out on the job, if
you don't quite pull off the project the way you
wanted to, that doesn't impact your self-esteem. That doesn't impact
(10:10):
who you are as a person. You are still someone
who is valuable and important and has a contribution to make.
So it separates you from the project, if that makes sense.
In 1998, a psychological study found that employees with high
self-efficacy tended to set more challenging goals for themselves, persist
longer in the face of obstacles, and ultimately achieve higher
(10:33):
levels of success. So this is a really good thing. Yeah,
and I mean, who wouldn't want to hire that person, right? Like,
you and I look at that as, as people who
employ people and you go, yeah, I want someone who
is persistent around obstacles. I want someone who's gonna challenge themselves,
and I want someone who's going to
Succeed. Um, similarly, there's been studies that have shown that, um,
(10:53):
self-efficacy is associated with academic achievement, um, and students, uh,
achieving more of what they wanted to. It's also, um,
something that is used, uh, people with high self-efficacy are
more likely to be able to overcome or change an
addictive behaviour, including quitting smoking or improving their health through
diet or exercise. So, it's not to say that if
you've got higher self-efficacy, you're not gonna start smoking, but
(11:14):
you're gonna be someone who's more likely to be able
to quit when you want to.
So the behaviours, um, to look out for are they
develop a deeper interest in the activities in which they participate.
They form a stronger sense of commitment to their interests
and activities, uh, recover quickly from setbacks and disappointments, and
view challenging problems as tasks to be mastered. Oh, I
(11:37):
wish I was someone that did that. I wish there
was like a complicated problem, and I was able to go.
I shall master this problem as opposed to going, Oh God,
we've got a really big problem. Yeah, well, exactly. I
was about to say the same thing, and that just
sounds too good to be true. I don't know, but
I suppose that's what we're aiming for, right? That you can,
you can look at the problem as a, as a
challenge and something you believe that you're capable of solving.
(11:58):
And usually that's where you try to get to after
you've done, you cry and you scream and you're shouting
into the void, right? So people with a weak sense
of self-efficacy avoid challenging tasks or new opportunities, believe that
difficult tasks and situations are beyond their capabilities. Focus on
Personal failings and negative outcomes and quickly lose confidence in
personal abilities. How do we get to good? Yeah. Well,
(12:22):
there's a few different ways we can master this idea
of self-efficacy, and the first one is just doing the
thing and doing it well.
Um, the literature calls this mastery experiences, folks. But what
it means is that if you think you're not good
at job interviews, and you do a job interview and
you nail it and you get the job, that improves
your self-efficacy, because you go, look, I did it before.
(12:43):
I think I could do it again.
So as we get better at things, um, as we
do them and we prove to ourselves what's possible, that
can improve our self-efficacy. Uh, social modelling really helps, which
means witnessing other people, especially people who we feel some
kind of kinship with or we feel are similar to us.
And I think we've all had those people, whether, you know,
it was in your, in your education or in your
(13:04):
working life where you're
Like, Oh yeah, we're kind of similar. We're kind of
good at similar stuff. If you see them being stretched
and achieving something, it often creates a belief that you
could do the same thing. And I, you know, I
know I've had that in my own working life, and,
you know, sometimes it can show up as, as less
admirable traits, right? Like jealousy. But when you see someone
who you think is similar to you achieving something,
(13:27):
Even if you do feel a little bit envious, you
also are saying to yourself, yeah, I could, I could
do that. I could do that. Absolutely, I could. And
that can be really motivating. There's social persuasion, which is
where you are persuaded by the encouragement of people whose
opinions you trust. And then finally, we can build self-efficacy
through our own responses and emotional reactions. So,
(13:47):
Um, if you're someone who is experiencing really high levels
of stress or, um, you're feeling, um, really emotional about
a situation, it's gonna be difficult to try and build
self-efficacy when that's happening. So, in summary, um, acknowledge the positive, uh,
don't brush off compliments or dismiss your achievements as luck,
which Jamila has written an entire book, book about, um,
(14:09):
Not just lucky, and, and that is something we try
very hard at FW to do. Um, talk to yourself positively.
Speak to yourself as you would a best friend. Be supportive, kind,
and understanding. Be kind when you make a mistake.
Jen, I feel like we should pause on that one
because so many of our Jobs Academy members are so
hard on themselves. Yes. And I, one of the things
(14:30):
I always notice in mentoring sessions, almost wish I wish
we could tape them and show them back to people,
is there'll be someone who completely berates themselves and talks
themselves down during a mentoring session. And then I see
them building someone else up and being so kind and
so generous to someone else who's experiencing the same problem.
And, and you just want to say to them, if,
(14:51):
if only you could give yourself the same grace and
the same kindness that you're giving this total stranger in
a mentoring session, could you just be a bit kinder
to yourself, a bit easier on yourself, because, uh, talking
to yourself and reminding yourself how rubbish you are all
the time, of course, you're gonna start to believe it. Yeah,
they call it in other, um,
Formats, um, monkey brain, where your brain can't stop, you
(15:13):
just go over and over again and you berate yourself
and you're mean to yourself, and, um, it is wildly unhelpful. I,
I do think in that circumstance, you do have to
pull yourself out and go and find techniques to somehow
short circuit that, and often it happens in the middle
of the night.
Um, but try and short circuit that process because if
(15:34):
you let that process continue to drive your entire career life, um,
you will forever be chasing your tail. So, the monkey brain, um,
be kind to yourself, stop the, stop the negative thoughts, um,
really super important for
Um, building self-efficacy. And on that, I think the, the
stop the negative thoughts is also a hard one, right?
(15:55):
Because you're like, well, how am I supposed to stop?
I'm having all the thoughts. Um, and often I think
what Helen just said there is really important is that
even just stepping away from having the thought to observing
the fact you're having the thought and going interesting.
Situation X has caused me to start saying sentence Y
to myself. OK, that's interesting. Why have I jumped so
(16:18):
quickly from that happening to me to thinking this about myself?
And next time it happens, go, Was there a similar
thing that caused that caused me to do that? Was
there a similar thing that pushed me into that thinking? OK.
That's interesting. I wonder why I did that. And I
think even just asking yourself questions starts to make you
a bit more self-aware and less inclined to just fall
deep into that, that self-hate. Yeah, don't give into it. Um,
(16:42):
even if you are mindful enough to realise that it's
going on, and you pull yourself up and you stop
and you consciously push them to, to one side, they're
gonna come back, right? Those thoughts come back. So, gotta
stop again. And you gotta keep stopping and you gotta
keep working on stopping it because
Uh, until you do, it's going to control you. I
(17:04):
want to recommend, and again, practise as I, as I,
as I say, folks, not as I do, but we've
got to stop comparing ourselves to other people as, and it, it,
it is really difficult to do that. Sometimes it does
feel like you're on a, you're on a racetrack, right?
And you're all, you've all ended up at a different
point and you feel like, but we all started at
the same place. How did we end up here? But
you just told us a indigo that it can be
(17:26):
good for you.
If you compare yourself to someone who's going well, yes,
that's true. I think it can be motivating. Yeah, you've
pulled me up. That's very true. I do think it
can be motivating, but I also think you can start
berating yourself with it. But that's right, you're making, you're
making different points, and there's quite, they're quite specific points.
So rather than making a comparison to yourself that's negative,
make a comparison to yourself that's positive. Let's go, that's
(17:48):
what you mean.
That's why a good combination. Um, I, I think what
Helen says is absolutely critical, folks. It's like, you know,
when you're making that comparison, see the possibilities for you
as opposed to the frustration that someone else did something
that you haven't been able to do yet.
Um, if you do need to do some self-reflection, if
you do need to do a bit of, uh, you know,
looking back on what you've done or thinking about the
(18:09):
fact that maybe you've made an error or you're not
sure about something, do it with someone you trust, do
it with someone who is going to hold you to
account and not let you dwell on all the bad stuff,
but is going to be honest about your strengths, um,
and honest about your areas for improvement. Uh, plan for success, um,
and set realistic goals. And, um, when you hit one,
(18:30):
Set yourself a new one and just keep, and keep
moving up those goals. Jamila, I feel like before we
end this particular episode, um, I should just ask you
how you have managed, um, to build your own self-efficacy,
because many people listening to this will go, very talented person,
has had an incredible career, uh, but it's not always
(18:52):
that way, is it? No, God, absolutely not. Like, I
think we all have, um,
Areas of our lives and our working lives where we
fall over. And I, you know, I had the experience, um,
about 5 or 6 years ago where I, how I
look changed dramatically after being unwell. And I'd been doing
a lot of television, and I just was like, well,
I'm not doing that anymore. I'm just not doing it anymore,
(19:14):
because the belief of being effective at being able to
do that had been completely shattered. Now,
You know, the smart people and sensible people will go, No,
we're not, we don't care about how you look. We
were interested in what you were going to say. Well, sure,
but a lot of people watch television with no sound,
and a lot of people, uh, especially people who don't
like you, are gonna be negative about how you look.
(19:35):
That's the world we live in. It's something we're trying
to change. But I think I grew so scared of that,
and my sense of self-belief had been so deeply eroded,
and then I just kept reinforcing it by not doing it.
And because by not doing it, people stopped asking me
to do it because I said no the last 3 times.
And I took that as another sign of not being wanted.
(19:59):
And so that negative self-talk and that erosion of self-belief
got worse and worse and worse. And honestly, it was
only by deciding to do it anyway, and committing and saying,
I'm gonna just do it again, and I'm gonna force
myself through the incredible discomfort of doing this and the
incredibly deep.
Dislike of doing this, that I think I managed to
(20:21):
redevelop that sense of efficacy. Because by doing it again,
you know, it goes to that, that idea I talked
about before of the, of the mastery experience, right? Once
you've had the experience and you see that the sky
didn't fall, and actually it was quite good and someone says,
Well done, your brain starts to go, Oh, OK, maybe
it wouldn't be a disaster if I did that, cause
I have this one single piece of evidence that tells me,
(20:42):
It was fine, and then if you do it again,
then you've got two pieces of evidence that tell you,
actually it was fine. And I think it's been quite
a slow and deliberate rebuilding of that to feel OK again.
Thank you.
Speaker 1 (20:56):
Mindset is created by FW Jobs Academy with support from
the Australian government's Office for Women.
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