January 31, 2024 • 12 mins
Shelley Laslett is not only a neuroscientist - she's also a recovering perfectionist. Join Shelley and Sally Spicer as they interrogate the nature of perfectionism, how to use it as a strength and how to figure out when it's no longer serving you.
- Become an FW member to join the movement and fast-track your professional development
- Learn more about Shelley Laslett’s neuroscience coaching
- Keep up with @futurewomen on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Threads and X
- Find out more about FW Jobs Academy
Support the show: https://www.futurewomen.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, neuroscientist
Shelley Laslett is here to unpack perfectionism, namely, when it
can take your performance to the next level and when
good enough is just good enough.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm a recovering perfectionist. I'm not as bad as I
used to be. I can do things without crippling anxiety now,
which is great.
Um, but I'm definitely, um, learning how to navigate ambition
and also manage expectations around myself, my mental health, and
all of these really important things as well. I want
the work I put out to be engaging, impactful, and impressive.
(00:42):
I'm also a people pleaser, which I think relates strongly
to being a perfectionist.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Shelly, what's the difference between someone striving for excellence and
someone being a perfectionist?
Perspective and narration, meaning it depends on how you position
it to yourself and who's talking inside your head. So
we often talk about perfectionism in a different way, high achieving, dedicated, hardworking, meticulous,
because these can all be signposters that we'll hear in
(01:08):
our work dialogue. So when we think about perfectionism in
that regard, we actually, we celebrate it, right? Like, it's,
it's a really positive thing. But perfectionism in the workplace
can also sound like competitive.
Control freak, not a team player, bullish.
Or difficult
So, it's really important to understand here that any strength
(01:30):
overplayed becomes a weakness. I'm gonna say that again, any
strength overplayed becomes a weakness. And perfectionism is a bit
of a trap. In itself, it's not wholly bad, it's
not wholly good, but it is a multi-dimensional construct. And
what do I mean by that is there's multiple parts.
There's multiple factors which influence perfectionism and how it plays
out for everybody.
So importantly, to use it as a strength, we need
(01:52):
to understand the difference between adjusted and healthy and potentially
not healthy or maladapted, a perfectionist being on an unrealistic level. So,
we want to strive for excellence, we want to be
high achieving. That's a, that's a great thing. And this
would fall into what's called the normal or adaptive, and
I say normal is a loose term, but just adaptive perfectionism.
(02:15):
And what that means is, it's the balanced pursuit of
one's goals. So it relates to those who set high standards,
goals and aspirations, but have the ability to re-evaluate and
adapt these standards and expectations when needed. So, there are
a number of external factors that we cannot control, which
are often going to influence our goals and our desires
and our pursuits.
(02:36):
The adaptive part is being able to reorganise those expectations
of ourselves, being able to reorganise our goals and our
internal benchmarks of ourselves, to adapt to that external happening,
so that this re-evaluation can occur. Because then perfectionism doesn't
become a trap, then it becomes a motivator, then it becomes,
I don't necessarily don't need to get it perfect, but
(02:58):
I need to get it to this standard. Perfect also
doesn't exist. The only way you can be perfect is
by being you, because you are wholly perfect as you are.
So the internal moving of that benchmark is really important
because it's your internal observation and reflection that is actually
to determine what perfect inverted commas looks like. Now, there
might be some externalised factor, score, outcome, feedback, but it's
(03:21):
your understanding of what perfect that bar, that standard look like.
Where we see perfectionism become quite a negative thing is
when it's, it's maladaptive. And basically what that means is
that this flexibility doesn't exist. It may encompass more of
those detrimental aspects of perfectionism, self-criticism, self-doubt. There's this real
(03:41):
rigid adherence. It has to be this way. It's all
or nothing thinking. I'm either a winner or I'm a failure.
There's no in-between. If I'm not the best, I'm the worst,
I'm nothing, and I have no value.
And that's where perfectionism is, is a trap. And we
see that really clearly. You know, there's a wonderful quote with,
I think it's Giannis, I forget his surname, the basketballer,
(04:03):
where he says, you know, Michael Jordan played 16 seasons
and he won 5 premierships. Does that mean that all
the other seasons were terrible? No. It means he was
adapting and a learning and re-evaluating. And we have to
think about our career like that. I might get rejected
from 15 interviews, but did I get the one interview
and did I nail that job, then yes.
Does that mean that I'm a failure? No. It means
that that one interview, I did the right things in
(04:24):
the right way, and it was the right job for me.
It doesn't mean that those 14 others or those 15
others that I've done means I am deficit. I have
a deficit, I am defected in some way. So that's
where we see this adaptability of those high standards versus
this chastising of ourselves.
So, the other thing about maladaptive perfection is, and it's
people set unrealistic expectations. They actually have really high unrealistic expectations.
(04:50):
I can only get 99. I cannot get, you know, 98.
And and it happens. And we see it, actually quite
a lot in sport, because it's, it's sport's such a binary,
you either win or you lose. You win by 20
goals or you lose by 20 goals, or you lose
by a point, you still lose.
And what sports psychs do an amazing job in this
(05:10):
place is really helping people to move from that maladaptive
into adaptive way. So, I want folks to think about,
if we go back to that interview analogy, those 15
interviews were not failures, they were opportunities to learn, right?
And in going through those 15 interviews, you probably learn
a bunch of things that set you up for success
in that final 16th.
It's really famous that Jack Barr, who's the founder of Alibaba,
(05:32):
whilst I have, you know, other thoughts on that company itself,
the point is that he was rejected so many times.
I think out of a graduate scheme, they took 100
positions and he was the one person who didn't get in. Now,
does that mean that he was, you know, had a deficit? No.
It just means it wasn't the thing that was right
for him. And sometimes that's gonna happen. Sometimes they're actually
doors that close on us and knows that we get
(05:54):
for good reason.
And this has happened to me in my career. There's
been times that I've received no's and it's been really hard.
It wasn't what I wanted to hear. It was painful.
It wasn't what I was anticipating. And quite frankly, it hurt, right?
But time, distance, adaptability, looking at that from a different angle,
I can see why there was a no. I can
see why it wasn't the right thing. It didn't mean
(06:15):
it didn't hurt at the time. OK, so what are
the common signs of perfectionism? If you're like, Well, I
don't know if I'm in adaptive or maladaptive. I don't know.
If there is any form of self-criticism here, and you
are struggling to, to readjust your expectations, even when external
factors change, and you finding that you're still working really,
really late to try and get something perfect, even when
(06:37):
done would be OK, I think you're probably gonna be
more in that maladaptive. Now, that's, again, not, you're not
in deficit. You don't need, you know, 25 years of
counselling to try and undo this. All that you need
is to sort of have that cognizant, and that conscious
awareness of
Does this need to be done this way? Who's setting
this agenda? Is this mine? Is this the workplace? What's
(06:58):
happening here? An element of perfection in it is it's
generally motivated by a fear of failure rather than a
balance or desire to achieve, learn and grow. And I
want people to think more about every opportunity that happens,
everything that happens, is it just success or failure? It's
outcomes that either would be focused towards something we desire,
or an outcome we didn't desire, but it's an opportunity
(07:19):
to learn and grow.
We can't get everything right all of the time, and
it is completely unrealistic for us to think that we
can be perfect. The only way you're gonna be perfect
is by being authentically you because no one else can
actually be you. So you still, for those who want
to tick the box of I'm satisfying my perfectionism drive,
you still are, but it's just about changing the way
(07:39):
that you're thinking about it. That adaptability is really critical
to making sure perfectionism is a positive versus a detractor
in the way that you're thinking about yourself and about work.
Finally, Shelly, can you please explain how perfectionism can lead
to burnout? No one can be perfect 100% of the time.
It's just not possible. Like, it doesn't exist on this planet. So,
(08:01):
if you know that it just doesn't exist, you're striving
to something that in reality just isn't even in the atmosphere. Right?
So you sometimes you really have to check yourself with
that sort of quite big picture thinking. Where it leads
to burnout is when it's maladaptive, where we just don't care.
The pursuit of being perfect, the pursuit of being right
overweighs everything else, our health, our relationships, our values, you know,
(08:25):
it just, it becomes a bulldozer. And, you know, we're
still in the driving seat, but we can't find the
front and behind that bulldozer, so we just end up
clearing everything in our path. And this is what I
mean when you think about when you hear people talk
about it in the workplace.
Or they're, you know, they're ruthless, or they're bullish. And you,
and you know people like that, but generally, that is
coming from a place of insecurity, not from a place
(08:45):
of confidence. It's often dressed up as confidence, but underneath
confidence always sits in security and fear. Because if I'm
not perfect, if I'm not great at work, then who
am I? And that's much scarier question than was the
document perfect? Right? So we're gonna try and get to
the document perfect first.
I think where we avoid burnout is by catching it early.
So sense checking with ourselves. Am I actually able to adapt?
(09:09):
You know, I've worked with a lot of people that
every night they were still there till 11 p.m. because
it wasn't perfect. And yeah, it's really easy to fall
into that trap when your colleagues are doing it too,
but you have to really ask yourself, is that worth it?
And how long do you think you're gonna be able
to sustain that?
And the answer's probably not very long, or if you do,
your body's gonna give you some pretty clear warning signs
and just give up on you, and some other problem
(09:30):
will eventuate. So, your body is already giving you warning
signs before you get to burnout. When we get to
burnout is when we haven't listened to them. So, check.
In that self-reflective practise, whether or not it's creating space to,
to actually have some time to exercise or creating space
to self-reflect and journal. I appreciate that a lot of
the people who are listening to this have probably got
(09:51):
an already really, really busy life. They're probably already a
working parent. Um, I hear you, I'm with you. I'm
in those trenches. I understand those challenges. I manage those
small stakeholders also.
They are difficult, but the most important thing that you
have to remember is that nothing in your world can
be well if you are not well. Like, you are
(10:11):
being unwell as CEO of the household is probably one
of the most detrimental things to that company, in this case,
to that family. So the best thing that you can
do is
Put yourself first in this. And the best thing that
you can do is to find, even if it's just
5 minutes, right? The dishes can wait, the laundry can wait,
and your perfectionist is probably going, No, but then my
(10:32):
house is gonna be so messy and I can't function.
I get it. I get it. OK? I'm with you.
I'm in those trenches. I have the same internal dialogue.
But it's like, why does it matter? Why does it
No matter if there's dishes on the sink. Go to
another room. Like, they're still gonna be there when you
get back. But you will have more space, capacity, and
emotional availability to process why that's stressing you out if
(10:55):
you are able to understand the root cause underneath. If
you are able to give yourself time and space to
process and do this self-reflective practise.
In our next episode, Helen McCabe and Jamila Risby will
share their practical advice on how to harness your perfectionism
and when to channel your inner pragmatist instead. Try out
(11:17):
behavioural experiments where you intentionally practise making mistakes and do
things imperfectly. This is
Something, this is something I don't have to do. As
part of these experiments, predict what will happen when you
make a mistake, and then follow through with the plan
to see what actually happens. Wow, that's stressful. Mindset is
created by FW Jobs Academy with support from the Australian
(11:40):
government's Office for Women.
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, neuroscientist
Shelley Laslett is here to unpack perfectionism, namely, when it
can take your performance to the next level and when
good enough is just good enough.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
I'm a recovering perfectionist. I'm not as bad as I
used to be. I can do things without crippling anxiety now,
which is great.
Um, but I'm definitely, um, learning how to navigate ambition
and also manage expectations around myself, my mental health, and
all of these really important things as well. I want
the work I put out to be engaging, impactful, and impressive.
(00:42):
I'm also a people pleaser, which I think relates strongly
to being a perfectionist.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Shelly, what's the difference between someone striving for excellence and
someone being a perfectionist?
Perspective and narration, meaning it depends on how you position
it to yourself and who's talking inside your head. So
we often talk about perfectionism in a different way, high achieving, dedicated, hardworking, meticulous,
because these can all be signposters that we'll hear in
(01:08):
our work dialogue. So when we think about perfectionism in
that regard, we actually, we celebrate it, right? Like, it's,
it's a really positive thing. But perfectionism in the workplace
can also sound like competitive.
Control freak, not a team player, bullish.
Or difficult
So, it's really important to understand here that any strength
(01:30):
overplayed becomes a weakness. I'm gonna say that again, any
strength overplayed becomes a weakness. And perfectionism is a bit
of a trap. In itself, it's not wholly bad, it's
not wholly good, but it is a multi-dimensional construct. And
what do I mean by that is there's multiple parts.
There's multiple factors which influence perfectionism and how it plays
out for everybody.
So importantly, to use it as a strength, we need
(01:52):
to understand the difference between adjusted and healthy and potentially
not healthy or maladapted, a perfectionist being on an unrealistic level. So,
we want to strive for excellence, we want to be
high achieving. That's a, that's a great thing. And this
would fall into what's called the normal or adaptive, and
I say normal is a loose term, but just adaptive perfectionism.
(02:15):
And what that means is, it's the balanced pursuit of
one's goals. So it relates to those who set high standards,
goals and aspirations, but have the ability to re-evaluate and
adapt these standards and expectations when needed. So, there are
a number of external factors that we cannot control, which
are often going to influence our goals and our desires
and our pursuits.
(02:36):
The adaptive part is being able to reorganise those expectations
of ourselves, being able to reorganise our goals and our
internal benchmarks of ourselves, to adapt to that external happening,
so that this re-evaluation can occur. Because then perfectionism doesn't
become a trap, then it becomes a motivator, then it becomes,
I don't necessarily don't need to get it perfect, but
(02:58):
I need to get it to this standard. Perfect also
doesn't exist. The only way you can be perfect is
by being you, because you are wholly perfect as you are.
So the internal moving of that benchmark is really important
because it's your internal observation and reflection that is actually
to determine what perfect inverted commas looks like. Now, there
might be some externalised factor, score, outcome, feedback, but it's
(03:21):
your understanding of what perfect that bar, that standard look like.
Where we see perfectionism become quite a negative thing is
when it's, it's maladaptive. And basically what that means is
that this flexibility doesn't exist. It may encompass more of
those detrimental aspects of perfectionism, self-criticism, self-doubt. There's this real
(03:41):
rigid adherence. It has to be this way. It's all
or nothing thinking. I'm either a winner or I'm a failure.
There's no in-between. If I'm not the best, I'm the worst,
I'm nothing, and I have no value.
And that's where perfectionism is, is a trap. And we
see that really clearly. You know, there's a wonderful quote with,
I think it's Giannis, I forget his surname, the basketballer,
(04:03):
where he says, you know, Michael Jordan played 16 seasons
and he won 5 premierships. Does that mean that all
the other seasons were terrible? No. It means he was
adapting and a learning and re-evaluating. And we have to
think about our career like that. I might get rejected
from 15 interviews, but did I get the one interview
and did I nail that job, then yes.
Does that mean that I'm a failure? No. It means
that that one interview, I did the right things in
(04:24):
the right way, and it was the right job for me.
It doesn't mean that those 14 others or those 15
others that I've done means I am deficit. I have
a deficit, I am defected in some way. So that's
where we see this adaptability of those high standards versus
this chastising of ourselves.
So, the other thing about maladaptive perfection is, and it's
people set unrealistic expectations. They actually have really high unrealistic expectations.
(04:50):
I can only get 99. I cannot get, you know, 98.
And and it happens. And we see it, actually quite
a lot in sport, because it's, it's sport's such a binary,
you either win or you lose. You win by 20
goals or you lose by 20 goals, or you lose
by a point, you still lose.
And what sports psychs do an amazing job in this
(05:10):
place is really helping people to move from that maladaptive
into adaptive way. So, I want folks to think about,
if we go back to that interview analogy, those 15
interviews were not failures, they were opportunities to learn, right?
And in going through those 15 interviews, you probably learn
a bunch of things that set you up for success
in that final 16th.
It's really famous that Jack Barr, who's the founder of Alibaba,
(05:32):
whilst I have, you know, other thoughts on that company itself,
the point is that he was rejected so many times.
I think out of a graduate scheme, they took 100
positions and he was the one person who didn't get in. Now,
does that mean that he was, you know, had a deficit? No.
It just means it wasn't the thing that was right
for him. And sometimes that's gonna happen. Sometimes they're actually
doors that close on us and knows that we get
(05:54):
for good reason.
And this has happened to me in my career. There's
been times that I've received no's and it's been really hard.
It wasn't what I wanted to hear. It was painful.
It wasn't what I was anticipating. And quite frankly, it hurt, right?
But time, distance, adaptability, looking at that from a different angle,
I can see why there was a no. I can
see why it wasn't the right thing. It didn't mean
(06:15):
it didn't hurt at the time. OK, so what are
the common signs of perfectionism? If you're like, Well, I
don't know if I'm in adaptive or maladaptive. I don't know.
If there is any form of self-criticism here, and you
are struggling to, to readjust your expectations, even when external
factors change, and you finding that you're still working really,
really late to try and get something perfect, even when
(06:37):
done would be OK, I think you're probably gonna be
more in that maladaptive. Now, that's, again, not, you're not
in deficit. You don't need, you know, 25 years of
counselling to try and undo this. All that you need
is to sort of have that cognizant, and that conscious
awareness of
Does this need to be done this way? Who's setting
this agenda? Is this mine? Is this the workplace? What's
(06:58):
happening here? An element of perfection in it is it's
generally motivated by a fear of failure rather than a
balance or desire to achieve, learn and grow. And I
want people to think more about every opportunity that happens,
everything that happens, is it just success or failure? It's
outcomes that either would be focused towards something we desire,
or an outcome we didn't desire, but it's an opportunity
(07:19):
to learn and grow.
We can't get everything right all of the time, and
it is completely unrealistic for us to think that we
can be perfect. The only way you're gonna be perfect
is by being authentically you because no one else can
actually be you. So you still, for those who want
to tick the box of I'm satisfying my perfectionism drive,
you still are, but it's just about changing the way
(07:39):
that you're thinking about it. That adaptability is really critical
to making sure perfectionism is a positive versus a detractor
in the way that you're thinking about yourself and about work.
Finally, Shelly, can you please explain how perfectionism can lead
to burnout? No one can be perfect 100% of the time.
It's just not possible. Like, it doesn't exist on this planet. So,
(08:01):
if you know that it just doesn't exist, you're striving
to something that in reality just isn't even in the atmosphere. Right?
So you sometimes you really have to check yourself with
that sort of quite big picture thinking. Where it leads
to burnout is when it's maladaptive, where we just don't care.
The pursuit of being perfect, the pursuit of being right
overweighs everything else, our health, our relationships, our values, you know,
(08:25):
it just, it becomes a bulldozer. And, you know, we're
still in the driving seat, but we can't find the
front and behind that bulldozer, so we just end up
clearing everything in our path. And this is what I
mean when you think about when you hear people talk
about it in the workplace.
Or they're, you know, they're ruthless, or they're bullish. And you,
and you know people like that, but generally, that is
coming from a place of insecurity, not from a place
(08:45):
of confidence. It's often dressed up as confidence, but underneath
confidence always sits in security and fear. Because if I'm
not perfect, if I'm not great at work, then who
am I? And that's much scarier question than was the
document perfect? Right? So we're gonna try and get to
the document perfect first.
I think where we avoid burnout is by catching it early.
So sense checking with ourselves. Am I actually able to adapt?
(09:09):
You know, I've worked with a lot of people that
every night they were still there till 11 p.m. because
it wasn't perfect. And yeah, it's really easy to fall
into that trap when your colleagues are doing it too,
but you have to really ask yourself, is that worth it?
And how long do you think you're gonna be able
to sustain that?
And the answer's probably not very long, or if you do,
your body's gonna give you some pretty clear warning signs
and just give up on you, and some other problem
(09:30):
will eventuate. So, your body is already giving you warning
signs before you get to burnout. When we get to
burnout is when we haven't listened to them. So, check.
In that self-reflective practise, whether or not it's creating space to,
to actually have some time to exercise or creating space
to self-reflect and journal. I appreciate that a lot of
the people who are listening to this have probably got
(09:51):
an already really, really busy life. They're probably already a
working parent. Um, I hear you, I'm with you. I'm
in those trenches. I understand those challenges. I manage those
small stakeholders also.
They are difficult, but the most important thing that you
have to remember is that nothing in your world can
be well if you are not well. Like, you are
(10:11):
being unwell as CEO of the household is probably one
of the most detrimental things to that company, in this case,
to that family. So the best thing that you can
do is
Put yourself first in this. And the best thing that
you can do is to find, even if it's just
5 minutes, right? The dishes can wait, the laundry can wait,
and your perfectionist is probably going, No, but then my
(10:32):
house is gonna be so messy and I can't function.
I get it. I get it. OK? I'm with you.
I'm in those trenches. I have the same internal dialogue.
But it's like, why does it matter? Why does it
No matter if there's dishes on the sink. Go to
another room. Like, they're still gonna be there when you
get back. But you will have more space, capacity, and
emotional availability to process why that's stressing you out if
(10:55):
you are able to understand the root cause underneath. If
you are able to give yourself time and space to
process and do this self-reflective practise.
In our next episode, Helen McCabe and Jamila Risby will
share their practical advice on how to harness your perfectionism
and when to channel your inner pragmatist instead. Try out
(11:17):
behavioural experiments where you intentionally practise making mistakes and do
things imperfectly. This is
Something, this is something I don't have to do. As
part of these experiments, predict what will happen when you
make a mistake, and then follow through with the plan
to see what actually happens. Wow, that's stressful. Mindset is
created by FW Jobs Academy with support from the Australian
(11:40):
government's Office for Women.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders
Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders takes you back to 1983, when two teenagers were found murdered, execution-style, on a quiet Texas hill. What followed was decades of rumors, false leads, and a case that law enforcement could never seem to close. Now, veteran investigative journalist M. William Phelps reopens the file — uncovering new witnesses, hidden evidence, and a shocking web of deaths that may all be connected. Over nine gripping episodes, Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders unravels a story 42 years in the making… and asks the question: who’s really been hiding the truth?
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com