January 31, 2024 • 13 mins
When is perfectionism not so perfect? And how do you actually embrace pragmatism instead? Find out as Helen McCabe and Jamila Rizvi explore the ways the two can coexist in your pursuit of excellence.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, Helen
McCabe and Jamila Risby are here to talk about professional
perfectionism and share practical tips for embracing your inner pragmatist.
(00:22):
Helen, today we get to talk about perfectionism, which is like,
I'm almost giggling as I start to talk about it,
because the reality is, if you are a perfectionist, it
can become addictive very quickly. And when being a perfectionist
becomes addictive, you create this sort of cycle of behaviours
and patterns that reinforce the need for you to be
perfect to yourself. So breaking out of that is really hard,
(00:46):
and we are gonna talk about breaking out of it
for most of today. But I think before we do,
we have to admit that there are
Like there are some benefits to being a
Speaker 2 (00:54):
perfect. Well, there are, and I love perfectionists. So anyone
who's listening to this, like Big Tick, um, you know,
you are, uh, such an important person, uh, in the
FW world, um, and we have many of them on staff.
So I do feel like we're quite qualified to talk
about it.
Um, one of the, um, things about it is that, um,
(01:14):
is motivation. Perfectionists are naturally motivated people who are determined
to achieve success by any means. Uh, and even if
they fail, they do not stop. They continue until they
find victory, which does make them a pretty awesome.
Um, colleague, they have, uh, a strong sense of excellence.
Perfectionists can not process anything short of their best. And
(01:35):
in striving to achieve impossible standards, they often produce really
great things. And finally, determination.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yeah, perfectionists are those people that
Will overcome obstacles, right? Uh, they will, uh, display often
really incredible willpower in trying to get somewhere. So, as
you said, Helen, it sounds it sounds pretty damn good,
especially as the employer. But what we're talking about today
is that recognition that perfectionism often covers.
Up a whole lot of stuff that can be really
destructive to your well-being. So, perfectionists are more likely to
(02:06):
experience anxiety and depression, uh, really serious mental health conditions.
Perfectionism can be exhausting, and so burnout is a psychological
experience that
It's a, you know, it's a chronic overwhelm that is
something a lot of perfectionists, uh, will go through. And procrastination,
which I don't think is something we necessarily associate automatically
(02:27):
with perfectionism, but sometimes if you are such a perfectionist,
you will delay starting a task because you're worried you
don't have the time or the space to complete it.
Perfectly. And so you actually end up not doing it
because you're so stressed about being able to complete every
minor detail that you end up doing the assignment for
university or the piece of work at the very last minute,
(02:48):
and you're really distressing yourself because you're a perfectionist, because
you didn't have the perfect conditions to work until that point.
And
As I think it's, it's pretty clear from hearing that,
you've got to be really cautious if you're someone who's
got those perfectionist tendencies to find a way that means
you can really achieve at work and you can excel
at work and do wonderful work, but recognise that you
(03:10):
are never going to be able to do perfect work.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, it is, it can be absolutely crippling, and, um, whilst, uh,
it does make you a very desirable colleague, friend, and, um, employee.
It, it is something you have to think deeply about
to identify in yourself, because you are at risk of burnout.
(03:35):
You might be, you might be flying in your career,
but the burnout factor can hit when you least expect it. So, um,
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I thought I might talk for a moment about just the,
some of the science behind this, because I think it's
really interesting for people who
Um, experience perfectionism. So, I want to tell you two
things in particular, because Shelly's usually gonna be our science,
our science lady. But, um, I, I, in one scientific journal,
they did a whole bunch of, uh, research that showed
that the pursuit of perfectionism is associated with the release
(04:06):
of dopamine, which is a neurotransmitter.
That's about pleasure and reward, right? When we talk about dopamine,
we talk about like the mouse getting the treat and
the experiment. So that dopamine release that comes with that
perfectionist tendency is this sense of gratification. And so if
you're getting that out of pursuing something that is actually
causing you mental distress, you're doing it because you're like,
(04:28):
I want the pleasure of, of feeling like I'm getting
close to perfect. It can actually be really bad for you.
The other one is that, um, there's a study in
the Journal of Personality and Individual differences that found that
perfectionism escalates over time. So when we talk about that
burnout that you just mentioned, Helen, if your perfectionism is,
let's say, there's no scale, everyone, I'm making this up.
But say you're, you've got a level 2, perfectionist tendencies,
(04:51):
and that it escalates to a level 5 by the
time you're in university.
And that's a level 8 by the time you're 5 years,
10 years out. And then by the time you're in
a senior role, 20 years out of school, your perfectionist
levels are at 10. That escalation is gonna become addictive
and you're in that reinforcing cycle, but also the chances
of burning out at the end of that. Like, that
is not sustainable. You can't live like that. You can't
(05:13):
work like that. There are not enough hours in the day,
which I think leads to the question of
How on earth you figure out if you have a
perfectionist problem, or if you're just working real
Speaker 2 (05:24):
hard. So academics suggest, um, people with perfectionist tendencies ask
themselves two questions. One, think about how perfectionism has harmed you,
along with thinking about how letting go of perfectionism might
benefit you.
Would you have more time for the things you enjoy?
Would it be easier to get started on and complete tasks?
(05:47):
Would you get along better with your spouse or partner?
Speaker 1 (05:50):
That's uncomfortable. Mm. What's the other
Speaker 2 (05:52):
question? Try out behavioural experiments where you intentionally practise making
mistakes and do things imperfectly. This is something, this is
something I don't have to do. As part of these experiments,
predict what will happen when you make a mistake, and
then follow through with the plan to see what actually happens.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Wow, that's stressful. Are you a perfectionist? I don't think so, actually. I,
I think I am.
Achievement focused. Like, and quite obsessively achievement focused, which is
often associated with perfectionism, but I actually think I'm probably
more pragmatic, which is what we're gonna talk about next.
Look at that segue. Look at this go folks. So, um,
let's talk about what a pragmatist is. Uh, a pragmatist
(06:35):
is someone who finds,
Practical, adaptable, and effective ways to deal with the challenges
of life. So rather than getting stuck down in the
theories or the ideals or the perfection, you're focused on
how we're gonna do this, how we're gonna get the
job done, and getting the job done is what is
what matters. So,
Pragmatists believe in practicality, doing, uh, practical, effective, useful things
(06:59):
to solve their problems. They tend to be quite flexible,
so they're open to change, they're open to new situations.
I was reading earlier today that pragmatists thrive in a startup,
like a, like an FW type situation, because they're not
rigid to doing things one way. They're always open to
changing it.
Um, a pragmatist is someone who does consider consequences. So
we think about, um, what our actions are achieving and
(07:21):
the positive, uh, results, and also avoiding actions with negative results. Um,
they're willing to experiment, try different things, and they recognise that, um,
to solve problems, you can't have a one size fits
all approach. You can't believe there's some absolute truth or
perfect outcome, that there are usually many good outcomes and
many ways to make it work. Helen, when you're
(07:43):
At work, you just talked about the benefits of having
people who do strive for perfection on the team. When
does pragmatism help move the situation along?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well, that's a really good question because I think a
perfectionist is, um, a super valuable team member and, and,
you know, staying aware as the leader of that team
about their burnout capabilities, um, quite a serious obligation on
behalf of, um, a leader.
But the, the pragmatists have to be built into the
team as well, the ones that are actually going to
(08:13):
make the call and move forward.
Um, and bring the perfectionists along the way and make
them feel, feel OK about themselves. Um, so, our purpose
of this podcast is to help the perfectionists, uh, shift
their thinking ever so slightly, uh, to understand that a
pragmatic outcome is a successful outcome, is a good outcome.
(08:34):
It is, it is a big tick if you're looking
for a big tick. And, um, and to identify the
pragmatists around you and potentially
Attach yourself to them a little more closely and and
just and you just said you're a pragmatist, um, with,
you know, a fairly borderline perfectionist kind of tendencies going
on there too. Say
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I'm a pragmatic workaholic.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I'm gonna say you're borderline. Um, so, but, you know,
to anyone who's trying to work out how they manage
those tendencies and they are addicted to it, find the
pragmatist in your life, um, study them a little, and
attach a little more closely, particularly in a working relationship, um,
to
Their thinking, so that you can start to take the
(09:17):
edge off, um, what is the negative side of being
a perfectionist. And, you know, again, I feel, um, very
close to this topic because I watch it almost daily
in our own FW team. Very committed to very good work.
So it's got the added, uh, component of actual people's
lives at the other end of what we do.
(09:38):
Um, so it's very hard to explain to someone not
that good enough is, um, near enough is good enough
in that circumstance. Uh, but a pragmatic outcome is ultimately
necessary when you are serving hundreds of underemployed women.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah. And I think ways that you can start to
do that are to prioritise some of those pragmatic values. So,
if you're a perfectionist where time tends to get away
from you because you're working so diligently on getting something done,
and you, you can't let it go until it's what
you want it to be.
Um, say to yourself, to be perfect, I've got to
be efficient, and I've got to manage my time well.
(10:13):
So start focusing not just on the perfection of the
particular project you're working on, but start to say, OK,
I also need to deliver by getting this done in
a reasonable time frame. So start to alleviate that tendency
to obsess over every detail where you can. Um, you
need to think about the impact of your effort right now.
(10:35):
Compared to the desired outcome. So, let's say you've done
something to a 96% level. Think about how much time
is required to take you to the 100%, and how much,
More that time could be doing elsewhere. Because if you've
got a project to 96%, it's probably looking pretty good, right?
You've probably got it in great, in a, in really
(10:55):
great shape. And so you've got to be smart about
where your time can be used. If you're behind on
every other project, it doesn't help for you to put
the effort in and the hours in to get that
to 100, when if you put that same
Effort and hours in somewhere else, you might take something
from 0 to 80, right? So you've got to be sensible, pragmatic,
and a bit honest about where your time can be,
can be best used. And
Speaker 2 (11:16):
that's really re reframing the concept of perfectionism in a way,
taking a zooming out, um, rather than zooming in. So
you can achieve the same outcome just over a broader
landscape rather than a, than a narrow landscape.
Perfectionism can lead to rigidity in thinking and inability to
adapt to changing circumstances. So, adopting a pragmatic approach with
(11:38):
a focus on practical solutions encourages you to become more
flexible and adaptable in the face of unexpected challenges. And
for many people listening to this, unexpected challenges are what
you excel in.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah. And being adaptable, I think, is a, is an
underrated quality, right?
Um, we want people who are, who have ideals and
beliefs and purpose and confidence about what they want. Sure.
But being adaptable recognises that, uh, meaning in your career
comes in lots of different ways. Um, being adaptable means
that if you didn't get that.
Job, that promotion, that pay rise, you can see other
(12:15):
paths forward. Being adaptable means that if you didn't get
to play the particular role in that project that you
wanted to, you can see other roles for you, um,
that you can make sure that you, uh, can fit
into a different shaped hole, let's say. And being adaptable is,
I think, ultimately gonna lead to, lead to a lot
of happiness at work, a lot of, um,
Uh, joy in what you're doing because you're making a contribution,
(12:38):
even if it's not the contribution that you were originally,
originally envisaged. And finally, pragmatism has huge benefits for your self-esteem. So,
it means shifting what you value towards progress and effort,
and a way.
From an unattainable perfection. Because if perfect is what you're
striving for, you are always going to be unhappy. You're
always gonna think what you, you created wasn't good enough.
(12:59):
We want to get to a place where you're proud
of what you create because it's excellent. We want to
pursue excellence, not perfection.
And you need to be able to be in a
place where you're valuing the fact that you've made progress,
that you've improved, that there was enormous effort involved. That
is going to lead to a shift in mindset around, um,
appreciating what you've achieved and appreciating gradual improvements, even if
(13:20):
you can't do everything at once.
Mindset is created by FW Jobs Academy with support from
the Australian government's Office for Women.
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, Helen
McCabe and Jamila Risby are here to talk about professional
perfectionism and share practical tips for embracing your inner pragmatist.
(00:22):
Helen, today we get to talk about perfectionism, which is like,
I'm almost giggling as I start to talk about it,
because the reality is, if you are a perfectionist, it
can become addictive very quickly. And when being a perfectionist
becomes addictive, you create this sort of cycle of behaviours
and patterns that reinforce the need for you to be
perfect to yourself. So breaking out of that is really hard,
(00:46):
and we are gonna talk about breaking out of it
for most of today. But I think before we do,
we have to admit that there are
Like there are some benefits to being a
Speaker 2 (00:54):
perfect. Well, there are, and I love perfectionists. So anyone
who's listening to this, like Big Tick, um, you know,
you are, uh, such an important person, uh, in the
FW world, um, and we have many of them on staff.
So I do feel like we're quite qualified to talk
about it.
Um, one of the, um, things about it is that, um,
(01:14):
is motivation. Perfectionists are naturally motivated people who are determined
to achieve success by any means. Uh, and even if
they fail, they do not stop. They continue until they
find victory, which does make them a pretty awesome.
Um, colleague, they have, uh, a strong sense of excellence.
Perfectionists can not process anything short of their best. And
(01:35):
in striving to achieve impossible standards, they often produce really
great things. And finally, determination.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Yeah, perfectionists are those people that
Will overcome obstacles, right? Uh, they will, uh, display often
really incredible willpower in trying to get somewhere. So, as
you said, Helen, it sounds it sounds pretty damn good,
especially as the employer. But what we're talking about today
is that recognition that perfectionism often covers.
Up a whole lot of stuff that can be really
destructive to your well-being. So, perfectionists are more likely to
(02:06):
experience anxiety and depression, uh, really serious mental health conditions.
Perfectionism can be exhausting, and so burnout is a psychological
experience that
It's a, you know, it's a chronic overwhelm that is
something a lot of perfectionists, uh, will go through. And procrastination,
which I don't think is something we necessarily associate automatically
(02:27):
with perfectionism, but sometimes if you are such a perfectionist,
you will delay starting a task because you're worried you
don't have the time or the space to complete it.
Perfectly. And so you actually end up not doing it
because you're so stressed about being able to complete every
minor detail that you end up doing the assignment for
university or the piece of work at the very last minute,
(02:48):
and you're really distressing yourself because you're a perfectionist, because
you didn't have the perfect conditions to work until that point.
And
As I think it's, it's pretty clear from hearing that,
you've got to be really cautious if you're someone who's
got those perfectionist tendencies to find a way that means
you can really achieve at work and you can excel
at work and do wonderful work, but recognise that you
(03:10):
are never going to be able to do perfect work.
Speaker 2 (03:14):
Yeah, it is, it can be absolutely crippling, and, um, whilst, uh,
it does make you a very desirable colleague, friend, and, um, employee.
It, it is something you have to think deeply about
to identify in yourself, because you are at risk of burnout.
(03:35):
You might be, you might be flying in your career,
but the burnout factor can hit when you least expect it. So, um,
Speaker 1 (03:43):
I thought I might talk for a moment about just the,
some of the science behind this, because I think it's
really interesting for people who
Um, experience perfectionism. So, I want to tell you two
things in particular, because Shelly's usually gonna be our science,
our science lady. But, um, I, I, in one scientific journal,
they did a whole bunch of, uh, research that showed
that the pursuit of perfectionism is associated with the release
(04:06):
of dopamine, which is a neurotransmitter.
That's about pleasure and reward, right? When we talk about dopamine,
we talk about like the mouse getting the treat and
the experiment. So that dopamine release that comes with that
perfectionist tendency is this sense of gratification. And so if
you're getting that out of pursuing something that is actually
causing you mental distress, you're doing it because you're like,
(04:28):
I want the pleasure of, of feeling like I'm getting
close to perfect. It can actually be really bad for you.
The other one is that, um, there's a study in
the Journal of Personality and Individual differences that found that
perfectionism escalates over time. So when we talk about that
burnout that you just mentioned, Helen, if your perfectionism is,
let's say, there's no scale, everyone, I'm making this up.
But say you're, you've got a level 2, perfectionist tendencies,
(04:51):
and that it escalates to a level 5 by the
time you're in university.
And that's a level 8 by the time you're 5 years,
10 years out. And then by the time you're in
a senior role, 20 years out of school, your perfectionist
levels are at 10. That escalation is gonna become addictive
and you're in that reinforcing cycle, but also the chances
of burning out at the end of that. Like, that
is not sustainable. You can't live like that. You can't
(05:13):
work like that. There are not enough hours in the day,
which I think leads to the question of
How on earth you figure out if you have a
perfectionist problem, or if you're just working real
Speaker 2 (05:24):
hard. So academics suggest, um, people with perfectionist tendencies ask
themselves two questions. One, think about how perfectionism has harmed you,
along with thinking about how letting go of perfectionism might
benefit you.
Would you have more time for the things you enjoy?
Would it be easier to get started on and complete tasks?
(05:47):
Would you get along better with your spouse or partner?
Speaker 1 (05:50):
That's uncomfortable. Mm. What's the other
Speaker 2 (05:52):
question? Try out behavioural experiments where you intentionally practise making
mistakes and do things imperfectly. This is something, this is
something I don't have to do. As part of these experiments,
predict what will happen when you make a mistake, and
then follow through with the plan to see what actually happens.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
Wow, that's stressful. Are you a perfectionist? I don't think so, actually. I,
I think I am.
Achievement focused. Like, and quite obsessively achievement focused, which is
often associated with perfectionism, but I actually think I'm probably
more pragmatic, which is what we're gonna talk about next.
Look at that segue. Look at this go folks. So, um,
let's talk about what a pragmatist is. Uh, a pragmatist
(06:35):
is someone who finds,
Practical, adaptable, and effective ways to deal with the challenges
of life. So rather than getting stuck down in the
theories or the ideals or the perfection, you're focused on
how we're gonna do this, how we're gonna get the
job done, and getting the job done is what is
what matters. So,
Pragmatists believe in practicality, doing, uh, practical, effective, useful things
(06:59):
to solve their problems. They tend to be quite flexible,
so they're open to change, they're open to new situations.
I was reading earlier today that pragmatists thrive in a startup,
like a, like an FW type situation, because they're not
rigid to doing things one way. They're always open to
changing it.
Um, a pragmatist is someone who does consider consequences. So
we think about, um, what our actions are achieving and
(07:21):
the positive, uh, results, and also avoiding actions with negative results. Um,
they're willing to experiment, try different things, and they recognise that, um,
to solve problems, you can't have a one size fits
all approach. You can't believe there's some absolute truth or
perfect outcome, that there are usually many good outcomes and
many ways to make it work. Helen, when you're
(07:43):
At work, you just talked about the benefits of having
people who do strive for perfection on the team. When
does pragmatism help move the situation along?
Speaker 2 (07:52):
Well, that's a really good question because I think a
perfectionist is, um, a super valuable team member and, and,
you know, staying aware as the leader of that team
about their burnout capabilities, um, quite a serious obligation on
behalf of, um, a leader.
But the, the pragmatists have to be built into the
team as well, the ones that are actually going to
(08:13):
make the call and move forward.
Um, and bring the perfectionists along the way and make
them feel, feel OK about themselves. Um, so, our purpose
of this podcast is to help the perfectionists, uh, shift
their thinking ever so slightly, uh, to understand that a
pragmatic outcome is a successful outcome, is a good outcome.
(08:34):
It is, it is a big tick if you're looking
for a big tick. And, um, and to identify the
pragmatists around you and potentially
Attach yourself to them a little more closely and and
just and you just said you're a pragmatist, um, with,
you know, a fairly borderline perfectionist kind of tendencies going
on there too. Say
Speaker 1 (08:53):
I'm a pragmatic workaholic.
Speaker 2 (08:56):
I'm gonna say you're borderline. Um, so, but, you know,
to anyone who's trying to work out how they manage
those tendencies and they are addicted to it, find the
pragmatist in your life, um, study them a little, and
attach a little more closely, particularly in a working relationship, um,
to
Their thinking, so that you can start to take the
(09:17):
edge off, um, what is the negative side of being
a perfectionist. And, you know, again, I feel, um, very
close to this topic because I watch it almost daily
in our own FW team. Very committed to very good work.
So it's got the added, uh, component of actual people's
lives at the other end of what we do.
(09:38):
Um, so it's very hard to explain to someone not
that good enough is, um, near enough is good enough
in that circumstance. Uh, but a pragmatic outcome is ultimately
necessary when you are serving hundreds of underemployed women.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
Yeah. And I think ways that you can start to
do that are to prioritise some of those pragmatic values. So,
if you're a perfectionist where time tends to get away
from you because you're working so diligently on getting something done,
and you, you can't let it go until it's what
you want it to be.
Um, say to yourself, to be perfect, I've got to
be efficient, and I've got to manage my time well.
(10:13):
So start focusing not just on the perfection of the
particular project you're working on, but start to say, OK,
I also need to deliver by getting this done in
a reasonable time frame. So start to alleviate that tendency
to obsess over every detail where you can. Um, you
need to think about the impact of your effort right now.
(10:35):
Compared to the desired outcome. So, let's say you've done
something to a 96% level. Think about how much time
is required to take you to the 100%, and how much,
More that time could be doing elsewhere. Because if you've
got a project to 96%, it's probably looking pretty good, right?
You've probably got it in great, in a, in really
(10:55):
great shape. And so you've got to be smart about
where your time can be used. If you're behind on
every other project, it doesn't help for you to put
the effort in and the hours in to get that
to 100, when if you put that same
Effort and hours in somewhere else, you might take something
from 0 to 80, right? So you've got to be sensible, pragmatic,
and a bit honest about where your time can be,
can be best used. And
Speaker 2 (11:16):
that's really re reframing the concept of perfectionism in a way,
taking a zooming out, um, rather than zooming in. So
you can achieve the same outcome just over a broader
landscape rather than a, than a narrow landscape.
Perfectionism can lead to rigidity in thinking and inability to
adapt to changing circumstances. So, adopting a pragmatic approach with
(11:38):
a focus on practical solutions encourages you to become more
flexible and adaptable in the face of unexpected challenges. And
for many people listening to this, unexpected challenges are what
you excel in.
Speaker 1 (11:53):
Yeah. And being adaptable, I think, is a, is an
underrated quality, right?
Um, we want people who are, who have ideals and
beliefs and purpose and confidence about what they want. Sure.
But being adaptable recognises that, uh, meaning in your career
comes in lots of different ways. Um, being adaptable means
that if you didn't get that.
Job, that promotion, that pay rise, you can see other
(12:15):
paths forward. Being adaptable means that if you didn't get
to play the particular role in that project that you
wanted to, you can see other roles for you, um,
that you can make sure that you, uh, can fit
into a different shaped hole, let's say. And being adaptable is,
I think, ultimately gonna lead to, lead to a lot
of happiness at work, a lot of, um,
Uh, joy in what you're doing because you're making a contribution,
(12:38):
even if it's not the contribution that you were originally,
originally envisaged. And finally, pragmatism has huge benefits for your self-esteem. So,
it means shifting what you value towards progress and effort,
and a way.
From an unattainable perfection. Because if perfect is what you're
striving for, you are always going to be unhappy. You're
always gonna think what you, you created wasn't good enough.
(12:59):
We want to get to a place where you're proud
of what you create because it's excellent. We want to
pursue excellence, not perfection.
And you need to be able to be in a
place where you're valuing the fact that you've made progress,
that you've improved, that there was enormous effort involved. That
is going to lead to a shift in mindset around, um,
appreciating what you've achieved and appreciating gradual improvements, even if
(13:20):
you can't do everything at once.
Mindset is created by FW Jobs Academy with support from
the Australian government's Office for Women.
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Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders
Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders takes you back to 1983, when two teenagers were found murdered, execution-style, on a quiet Texas hill. What followed was decades of rumors, false leads, and a case that law enforcement could never seem to close. Now, veteran investigative journalist M. William Phelps reopens the file — uncovering new witnesses, hidden evidence, and a shocking web of deaths that may all be connected. Over nine gripping episodes, Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders unravels a story 42 years in the making… and asks the question: who’s really been hiding the truth?
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com