January 31, 2024 • 12 mins
Career confusion is a universal challenge. Given most of us will have between 12 to 15 jobs in our life, the question Shelley Laslett fields this episode is: how do you determine the right pathway for you?
- Become an FW member to join the movement and fast-track your professional development
- Learn more about Shelley Laslett’s neuroscience coaching
- Keep up with @futurewomen on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, Threads and X
- Find out more about FW Jobs Academy
Support the show: https://www.futurewomen.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, neuroscientist
Shelly Laslett is here for a common conundrum, career confusion.
What happens when you don't really love what you've always
done the way you used to, but you're not sure
what your next step looks like? When do you stick
with what you know, when do you cut and run,
(00:24):
and do we put too much pressure on our career
to fill up our cup?
I feel that all the time. I guess you feel
stuck and paralysed all at the, yeah, all at the
same time. Definitely experienced periods in my career where I
was really unsure what my next move would be. I
(00:45):
felt like it was a really confusing time and quite frustrating.
You know, if, if you want change, but you might
not know what that change looks like.
Shelly, they say that if you love what you do,
you'll never work a day in your life, but I'd
say any small business owner would probably disagree with that.
But that also feels like a lot of pressure to
(01:06):
find that kind of passion in your career. Does everyone
have a big
Speaker 2 (01:10):
passion? Yes, everybody has a passion, but the question is
whether or not they make that passion aligned to their profession. And,
and you don't have to.
Right, I think you can have a very fulfilled career
and it necessarily not be something that you're wildly passionate about.
I think in our society, we tie our identity to
what we do versus who we are. They're not necessarily synonymous.
(01:33):
They're not necessarily the same thing. You can do a job,
do it well, and it not be your identity. Now, look,
you have to care about it in some way, but
that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be the
north star of your life. Your passion can be
Your family, it can be your hobby. It can be
that this job is the thing that allows you to
(01:53):
pursue your passion that sit outside of the job itself. Uh,
and that's OK. Um, I, I personally felt I was
red in that when you were saying to start ask
anyone who starts their own business about working, you know,
you never work a day in their life. That, that,
that's us. That's me to a degree as well. Like,
and so I would say to this with a warning,
be careful about turning your passions into your job, because
(02:13):
your passions are often something.
That you do as a hobby, something you do in
your free time. It's not something that you're often wedded
to the outcome or wedded to there being performance with,
with it. And so if you turn your passions into
a career, all the things that you like about your
passions quickly become a way because it's now synonymous with
work and it's now associated with work. So,
Finding your passion is not necessarily about finding the thing
(02:35):
that makes you want to jump out of bed in
the morning and have this beautiful cinematic experience where there's
birdsong and you can't wait to get to the office. Like,
that almost doesn't sort of exist. We all have hard
days in the workplace, even when we're doing things we
really care about. What's important with your job is just
about finding something that you're curious enough and interested enough
that will hold your attention, that will sustain.
(02:57):
Uh, your attention. It's something that will allow you to
persevere in the pursuit of your curiosity. What do I
mean by that? Something that is interesting enough that will
keep you engaged for a period of time. Now, I
want to be really clear here that that will change.
In fact, it's projected by Deloitte that you have 12
to 15 careers, not jobs, careers throughout your lifetime because
of the pace and the way the industry changed and
(03:18):
the way that the future of work evolves. So, we, again,
we're certainty hungry beings. We want to say, OK, I'm
now this, and this.
This is what I'm gonna do. So I would encourage
everybody on this, on this programme to think about, this
is what I'm going to do next. The question is,
this is not what I'm gonna do, this is what
I'm gonna do next. And personally, I've had a lot
of this is what I'm gonna do next. I've had
(03:40):
a lot of turns, I've had a lot of different titles.
I've played in lots of different areas. And I used
to really think that was a detriment to my career.
You know, people say, you're you've changed too many times,
you're too switchy. You didn't spend much time here. But
in reality, that gave me a really, really broad and
good sense of general management.
And that has really served me throughout my career. But
(04:00):
at the time, I was quite concerned that I'd jumped
around a bit. I changed, I'd, I'd chosen different things.
So if that sort of feels a little bit like you,
please don't be concerned. Like, there's a lot of skills
that you have from those experiences, and sometimes finding the
right things means choosing the wrong things. And I have
definitely chosen a few wrong things in terms of my
career or wrong jobs.
(04:20):
And had to learn the hard way from it. But
at the same time, it's taught me a lot of things. So,
when finding our passion, just think about what am I
curious about? What, what do I feel slightly excited about?
And that can simply be, I'm excited about this salary,
the people are nice enough, it's gonna help me achieve
the financial goals to support my family. It's not super stressful.
(04:41):
It's close to my home.
That can be enough. You know, it, it doesn't have
to be this overarching, like, light bulb moment where suddenly
all of my passions are fulfilled by this one job title.
In fact, it's, it's not realistic to think about it
this way. It's about to think, what is the thing
that is gonna keep me curious and engaged enough that
is going to support what my world and my life
(05:02):
needs and all the other hats that I wear for
all the other places that I'm in.
And the arenas that I'm in, the people that I
need to connect with with outside of the workplace, what
is gonna tick that box? Because that, again, is going
back to chunking down that big goal and doing it
in a practical way. Just thinking about, not what am
I gonna do, what am I gonna do next?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I love that. It's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like,
I'm passionate about paying my mortgage.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Completely. And I'm, I'm not saying that to like, to
make it sound really base, so that, like, you know,
we're all just money hungry. But if that's what you need,
that's what you need. You know, if you need a
non-stressful job that you know how to do and maybe
is something you've done before, but you want to get
back into that type of role because it's gonna build
your confidence to then move to the next thing.
(05:48):
Do that. Just make sure you're getting paid adequately for
your expertise. That's the only caveat I put to that.
You don't have to start at the entry level if
you've got 15 years' experience and you've taken some time
to do and be the CEO of the household.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
OK, so how does that kind of basic safety, you know, financial, flexibility,
those things, how do they factor into personal fulfilment in
a job?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So, quite simply, it's being at peace. It's being content.
You know, it's being happy with where you are at
that moment. And it's that contentment in the moment that's
really important. There's a really interesting doctrine, uh, written by
a lady called Angela Duckworth, and it's called grit, G
R I T. And her doctrine, she's a psychologist by training,
but she was also a teacher. She spent a lot
of time as a math teacher. She's quite a mass whiz.
(06:33):
And her doctrine which governed her PhD was this idea
that success is actually not attributed to talent or capability.
It's attributed to two factors, one being passion and the
other perseverance. And success is the ability to find something
we are passionate and curious enough about, and to have
the mental stamina, but also the commitment to persevere until
we lead to a point of success.
(06:54):
So what I would be saying is that that penultimate
kind of drive is find something you're curious enough about
that even when things get difficult and a little bit boring,
you're still happy to persevere with it because you're curious
enough about it. Now, not every job is going to
be like that, right? So, the one thing that, that
is something, this is a practise I'd done personally, because
(07:15):
I was curious in so many things. I just looked
for themes.
What was the one thing I kept being drawn to
in some form or another? What was the one thing
that I couldn't put down, and when I got to
do that type of work or in that type of area,
I felt, I felt happier. Now, that doesn't mean that
I only got to do that type of work, but
it meant that the job had enough of a flavour
of that style or that theme, or that area that
(07:38):
it could balance all the other parts maybe I didn't
like about the job.
And so, I wanna be really clear with the passion
bit as well. The passion can be, I wanna be
a really present parent, and I want to do these
things for my children. So I'm gonna pick the role
that I'm interested in in the workplace with the people
that I enjoy, that gives you the most flexibility to
pursue the thing that I'm actually passionate about, and that's
(07:58):
my children. That is as important as climbing the career ladder,
if that's your passion. And it should not take any
judgement from an external source saying whether or not there
is more or less value for that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, absolutely. And as women, we're often told that it's
not OK to be selfish and that it's a dirty word,
but it is OK to be selfish, right?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, so I think there's obviously an overarching societal construct that's,
that ties into this is people who are female or
people that identify as a woman, that this idea that
desire and want.
It is dirty.
You know, like, even if you look at some of the,
the main religious texts that govern our Australian society, there
(08:40):
is an idea that desire and want of a woman
is sinful. And so whether we like it or not,
that's kind of tied into our thinking. I think there's
also this idea of martyrdom, you know, within a family,
and generally that comes down to the person, to, to
the mother in heterosexual relationships with the person who's playing
that feminine role or the person who is the primary caregiver.
I want to be really clear with people here that
(09:02):
you can be a saviour without needing to martyr yourself
for the cause. You can still play your role and
support your family. The one thing I would be really
clear on, and I, I, I know it's difficult. I remember, like,
I'm there, I'm in the trenches with you.
For your children, what do you want to model? Because
they are watching us, and particularly if you have daughters,
(09:24):
what would you want your daughter to do? Would you
want her to hold all the pressure and crumble underneath
to save everybody else? And remember, we have a hero
story there. We celebrate that society a lot of time.
I think the most important thing to understand here is
that your family unit will not function if you cannot function. So,
being selfish is actually the healthiest decision you can take
(09:45):
in that moment. Selfish isn't, I'm gonna do whatever the
hell I want without, you know, any fear of repercussions
for my family and other people around me that I
care about. It's, what do I need to turn up
as the best partner, as the best parent, and as
the best person I want to be in my community,
and that includes my workplace.
So selfish is that, what do I need to do
(10:06):
and be those versions of myself? Now, that is not
to be perfect in those versions, as we talked about
in perfectionism. It is just to be the version of
myself that I am most comfortable with.
And often we try to have that conversation, and then
comes in the dialogue. But what will this person think?
And what about that? And what am I? Whenever the
what ifs come in, that's a different question. That's a
worry about what other people will think. You have to
(10:28):
ask that question of yourself independently. And so when I
did that with myself, because I definitely went through some
of that crisis, but I think we all do, particularly
for the first time parents.
It was really quite easy to answer when I thought
about it myself, but it became more complex when I
worried about what everybody else would think. And I have
to sort of go through that practise. And I still
have to go through it. I still have to catch myself. Again,
(10:49):
when people talk about these sorts of things, and I
talk about it and I can speak on it with authority,
often people think I don't experience it, and, and that's
actually inaccurate. A lot of this authority comes from my
direct experiences with these very challenges. So, it's about breaking
it down and just going, What do I need?
To be the parent I want to be, to be
the person I wanna be, and to be in the
(11:11):
workplace how I want to be that is gonna work
for me and my family. And I don't have to
justify that to anyone. I just have to be at
peace with it myself.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
In our next episode, Helen McCabe and Jamila Risby canvass
their own career confusion and share practical wisdom on finding
your passion. It's about finding what you're passionate about, so
I think the first thing is, um, being a bit reflective, right?
Watching how you
Experience different things. So, start with your body language. How
(11:44):
does your body behave when you're doing your current work,
for example? Um, do you get tense? Does it ache
all the time? Do you get panic attacks? Do you
get bored? And do you feel sleepy when you're at work? Um,
do you look at the clock all of the time?
Are you constantly checking your phone?
Are there signs that your heart rate might not be
where it should be? I think our bodies betray how
we feel about something. Mindset is created by FW Jobs
(12:08):
Academy with support from the Australian government's Office for Women.
Welcome to Mindset, a guide to getting out of your
own way and a blueprint for professional success. Today, neuroscientist
Shelly Laslett is here for a common conundrum, career confusion.
What happens when you don't really love what you've always
done the way you used to, but you're not sure
what your next step looks like? When do you stick
with what you know, when do you cut and run,
(00:24):
and do we put too much pressure on our career
to fill up our cup?
I feel that all the time. I guess you feel
stuck and paralysed all at the, yeah, all at the
same time. Definitely experienced periods in my career where I
was really unsure what my next move would be. I
(00:45):
felt like it was a really confusing time and quite frustrating.
You know, if, if you want change, but you might
not know what that change looks like.
Shelly, they say that if you love what you do,
you'll never work a day in your life, but I'd
say any small business owner would probably disagree with that.
But that also feels like a lot of pressure to
(01:06):
find that kind of passion in your career. Does everyone
have a big
Speaker 2 (01:10):
passion? Yes, everybody has a passion, but the question is
whether or not they make that passion aligned to their profession. And,
and you don't have to.
Right, I think you can have a very fulfilled career
and it necessarily not be something that you're wildly passionate about.
I think in our society, we tie our identity to
what we do versus who we are. They're not necessarily synonymous.
(01:33):
They're not necessarily the same thing. You can do a job,
do it well, and it not be your identity. Now, look,
you have to care about it in some way, but
that doesn't necessarily mean that it has to be the
north star of your life. Your passion can be
Your family, it can be your hobby. It can be
that this job is the thing that allows you to
(01:53):
pursue your passion that sit outside of the job itself. Uh,
and that's OK. Um, I, I personally felt I was
red in that when you were saying to start ask
anyone who starts their own business about working, you know,
you never work a day in their life. That, that,
that's us. That's me to a degree as well. Like,
and so I would say to this with a warning,
be careful about turning your passions into your job, because
(02:13):
your passions are often something.
That you do as a hobby, something you do in
your free time. It's not something that you're often wedded
to the outcome or wedded to there being performance with,
with it. And so if you turn your passions into
a career, all the things that you like about your
passions quickly become a way because it's now synonymous with
work and it's now associated with work. So,
Finding your passion is not necessarily about finding the thing
(02:35):
that makes you want to jump out of bed in
the morning and have this beautiful cinematic experience where there's
birdsong and you can't wait to get to the office. Like,
that almost doesn't sort of exist. We all have hard
days in the workplace, even when we're doing things we
really care about. What's important with your job is just
about finding something that you're curious enough and interested enough
that will hold your attention, that will sustain.
(02:57):
Uh, your attention. It's something that will allow you to
persevere in the pursuit of your curiosity. What do I
mean by that? Something that is interesting enough that will
keep you engaged for a period of time. Now, I
want to be really clear here that that will change.
In fact, it's projected by Deloitte that you have 12
to 15 careers, not jobs, careers throughout your lifetime because
of the pace and the way the industry changed and
(03:18):
the way that the future of work evolves. So, we, again,
we're certainty hungry beings. We want to say, OK, I'm
now this, and this.
This is what I'm gonna do. So I would encourage
everybody on this, on this programme to think about, this
is what I'm going to do next. The question is,
this is not what I'm gonna do, this is what
I'm gonna do next. And personally, I've had a lot
of this is what I'm gonna do next. I've had
(03:40):
a lot of turns, I've had a lot of different titles.
I've played in lots of different areas. And I used
to really think that was a detriment to my career.
You know, people say, you're you've changed too many times,
you're too switchy. You didn't spend much time here. But
in reality, that gave me a really, really broad and
good sense of general management.
And that has really served me throughout my career. But
(04:00):
at the time, I was quite concerned that I'd jumped
around a bit. I changed, I'd, I'd chosen different things.
So if that sort of feels a little bit like you,
please don't be concerned. Like, there's a lot of skills
that you have from those experiences, and sometimes finding the
right things means choosing the wrong things. And I have
definitely chosen a few wrong things in terms of my
career or wrong jobs.
(04:20):
And had to learn the hard way from it. But
at the same time, it's taught me a lot of things. So,
when finding our passion, just think about what am I
curious about? What, what do I feel slightly excited about?
And that can simply be, I'm excited about this salary,
the people are nice enough, it's gonna help me achieve
the financial goals to support my family. It's not super stressful.
(04:41):
It's close to my home.
That can be enough. You know, it, it doesn't have
to be this overarching, like, light bulb moment where suddenly
all of my passions are fulfilled by this one job title.
In fact, it's, it's not realistic to think about it
this way. It's about to think, what is the thing
that is gonna keep me curious and engaged enough that
is going to support what my world and my life
(05:02):
needs and all the other hats that I wear for
all the other places that I'm in.
And the arenas that I'm in, the people that I
need to connect with with outside of the workplace, what
is gonna tick that box? Because that, again, is going
back to chunking down that big goal and doing it
in a practical way. Just thinking about, not what am
I gonna do, what am I gonna do next?
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I love that. It's like Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like,
I'm passionate about paying my mortgage.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Completely. And I'm, I'm not saying that to like, to
make it sound really base, so that, like, you know,
we're all just money hungry. But if that's what you need,
that's what you need. You know, if you need a
non-stressful job that you know how to do and maybe
is something you've done before, but you want to get
back into that type of role because it's gonna build
your confidence to then move to the next thing.
(05:48):
Do that. Just make sure you're getting paid adequately for
your expertise. That's the only caveat I put to that.
You don't have to start at the entry level if
you've got 15 years' experience and you've taken some time
to do and be the CEO of the household.
Speaker 1 (06:02):
OK, so how does that kind of basic safety, you know, financial, flexibility,
those things, how do they factor into personal fulfilment in
a job?
Speaker 2 (06:10):
So, quite simply, it's being at peace. It's being content.
You know, it's being happy with where you are at
that moment. And it's that contentment in the moment that's
really important. There's a really interesting doctrine, uh, written by
a lady called Angela Duckworth, and it's called grit, G
R I T. And her doctrine, she's a psychologist by training,
but she was also a teacher. She spent a lot
of time as a math teacher. She's quite a mass whiz.
(06:33):
And her doctrine which governed her PhD was this idea
that success is actually not attributed to talent or capability.
It's attributed to two factors, one being passion and the
other perseverance. And success is the ability to find something
we are passionate and curious enough about, and to have
the mental stamina, but also the commitment to persevere until
we lead to a point of success.
(06:54):
So what I would be saying is that that penultimate
kind of drive is find something you're curious enough about
that even when things get difficult and a little bit boring,
you're still happy to persevere with it because you're curious
enough about it. Now, not every job is going to
be like that, right? So, the one thing that, that
is something, this is a practise I'd done personally, because
(07:15):
I was curious in so many things. I just looked
for themes.
What was the one thing I kept being drawn to
in some form or another? What was the one thing
that I couldn't put down, and when I got to
do that type of work or in that type of area,
I felt, I felt happier. Now, that doesn't mean that
I only got to do that type of work, but
it meant that the job had enough of a flavour
of that style or that theme, or that area that
(07:38):
it could balance all the other parts maybe I didn't
like about the job.
And so, I wanna be really clear with the passion
bit as well. The passion can be, I wanna be
a really present parent, and I want to do these
things for my children. So I'm gonna pick the role
that I'm interested in in the workplace with the people
that I enjoy, that gives you the most flexibility to
pursue the thing that I'm actually passionate about, and that's
(07:58):
my children. That is as important as climbing the career ladder,
if that's your passion. And it should not take any
judgement from an external source saying whether or not there
is more or less value for that.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
Yeah, absolutely. And as women, we're often told that it's
not OK to be selfish and that it's a dirty word,
but it is OK to be selfish, right?
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Yeah, so I think there's obviously an overarching societal construct that's,
that ties into this is people who are female or
people that identify as a woman, that this idea that
desire and want.
It is dirty.
You know, like, even if you look at some of the,
the main religious texts that govern our Australian society, there
(08:40):
is an idea that desire and want of a woman
is sinful. And so whether we like it or not,
that's kind of tied into our thinking. I think there's
also this idea of martyrdom, you know, within a family,
and generally that comes down to the person, to, to
the mother in heterosexual relationships with the person who's playing
that feminine role or the person who is the primary caregiver.
I want to be really clear with people here that
(09:02):
you can be a saviour without needing to martyr yourself
for the cause. You can still play your role and
support your family. The one thing I would be really
clear on, and I, I, I know it's difficult. I remember, like,
I'm there, I'm in the trenches with you.
For your children, what do you want to model? Because
they are watching us, and particularly if you have daughters,
(09:24):
what would you want your daughter to do? Would you
want her to hold all the pressure and crumble underneath
to save everybody else? And remember, we have a hero
story there. We celebrate that society a lot of time.
I think the most important thing to understand here is
that your family unit will not function if you cannot function. So,
being selfish is actually the healthiest decision you can take
(09:45):
in that moment. Selfish isn't, I'm gonna do whatever the
hell I want without, you know, any fear of repercussions
for my family and other people around me that I
care about. It's, what do I need to turn up
as the best partner, as the best parent, and as
the best person I want to be in my community,
and that includes my workplace.
So selfish is that, what do I need to do
(10:06):
and be those versions of myself? Now, that is not
to be perfect in those versions, as we talked about
in perfectionism. It is just to be the version of
myself that I am most comfortable with.
And often we try to have that conversation, and then
comes in the dialogue. But what will this person think?
And what about that? And what am I? Whenever the
what ifs come in, that's a different question. That's a
worry about what other people will think. You have to
(10:28):
ask that question of yourself independently. And so when I
did that with myself, because I definitely went through some
of that crisis, but I think we all do, particularly
for the first time parents.
It was really quite easy to answer when I thought
about it myself, but it became more complex when I
worried about what everybody else would think. And I have
to sort of go through that practise. And I still
have to go through it. I still have to catch myself. Again,
(10:49):
when people talk about these sorts of things, and I
talk about it and I can speak on it with authority,
often people think I don't experience it, and, and that's
actually inaccurate. A lot of this authority comes from my
direct experiences with these very challenges. So, it's about breaking
it down and just going, What do I need?
To be the parent I want to be, to be
the person I wanna be, and to be in the
(11:11):
workplace how I want to be that is gonna work
for me and my family. And I don't have to
justify that to anyone. I just have to be at
peace with it myself.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
In our next episode, Helen McCabe and Jamila Risby canvass
their own career confusion and share practical wisdom on finding
your passion. It's about finding what you're passionate about, so
I think the first thing is, um, being a bit reflective, right?
Watching how you
Experience different things. So, start with your body language. How
(11:44):
does your body behave when you're doing your current work,
for example? Um, do you get tense? Does it ache
all the time? Do you get panic attacks? Do you
get bored? And do you feel sleepy when you're at work? Um,
do you look at the clock all of the time?
Are you constantly checking your phone?
Are there signs that your heart rate might not be
where it should be? I think our bodies betray how
we feel about something. Mindset is created by FW Jobs
(12:08):
Academy with support from the Australian government's Office for Women.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders
Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders takes you back to 1983, when two teenagers were found murdered, execution-style, on a quiet Texas hill. What followed was decades of rumors, false leads, and a case that law enforcement could never seem to close. Now, veteran investigative journalist M. William Phelps reopens the file — uncovering new witnesses, hidden evidence, and a shocking web of deaths that may all be connected. Over nine gripping episodes, Paper Ghosts: The Texas Teen Murders unravels a story 42 years in the making… and asks the question: who’s really been hiding the truth?
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com