November 28, 2024 • 11 mins
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Jon Thoday, a prominent figure in entertainment management, shares insights about his company Avalon's early involvement in podcasting, dating back to the early 2000s. He reveals their work with notable talents like John Oliver, David Baddiel, and Frank Skinner, and discusses managing successful shows like "Shagged, Married, Annoyed" and "WTF with Marc Maron."
Thoday draws parallels between podcasting and stand-up comedy, noting how both mediums share a simple formula of talent and microphone with low barriers to entry. He emphasizes the importance of creative freedom in podcasting and expresses concerns about programmatic advertising potentially damaging the intimate relationship between podcasters and their audiences.
The conversation takes an interesting turn when discussing the evolution of podcasts into live shows, with Thoday sharing insights about how podcast success can now lead directly to arena-sized venues without needing traditional television fame first. He also offers a compelling perspective on video podcasting, suggesting that while it may help with monetization, the true innovation lies in the audio format itself, similar to how radio was a bigger breakthrough than filmed radio shows.
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Jon Thoday (00:12):
We just have an agreement with Absolute that we
can take the food with us and wedo. So we just made that
agreement with them. Andobviously, anybody who knows
anything about poker knows thatvery ideally you have your own
feed and it follows you. And ingeneral, I think it's best to
have podcaster owned by thepodcaster and get a podcast. If
(00:35):
you want to be portable, youneed to also you need the feed.
So it's not really any morecomplicated than that. We
produce podcasts and we alsorepresent podcasts and we've
been doing it. To be honest,since David Baddiel and Frank
Skinner did a podcast for theWorld Cup in the early 2000s
before people knew what readswere. So we've been doing it for
(00:56):
quite a long time. And obviouslyThe Bugle, which was John Oliver
and Andy Zaltzman going all theway back then, which was
originally funded by The Times
James Cridland (01:06):
One of yours as well, was it?
Jon Thoday (01:07):
Yeah? Yeah.
James Cridland (01:08):
It. It turns out that I watch very little
television, but all of myfavorites. Taskmaster. Last week.
Tonight, Russell Howard. It'sall you say. It's.
Jon Thoday (01:17):
Thank you.
James Cridland (01:18):
So thank you for that.
Jon Thoday (01:19):
It's really it's really John Oliver, Alex Horne
and Russell Howard.
James Cridland (01:23):
Yeah.
Jon Thoday (01:25):
So, yes, thank you.
We're lucky enough to work withsome brilliant people.
James Cridland (01:28):
So how important is podcasting for the kind of
shows that Avalon has?
Jon Thoday (01:32):
I wouldn't put it like that. Really? We we sort of
came upon podcasts in the early2000 when Keith Blackmore, who
was then sports as the of theTimes and he went on to be the
deputy editor, called me up andsaid, We heard of this thing
called the podcast, which to befrank, I hadn't heard of. And I
(01:54):
think at that time, RickyGervais might have been dealing
with The Guardian.
James Cridland (01:58):
He was.
Jon Thoday (01:59):
That's that was how we got involved with poker. So
because we work closely withtalent, we tend to get involved
in all sorts of media. So ifit's a medium or a TV show,
we're often involved with it.
I've, as I say, producing it orrepresenting the artist if they
want to do podcasting. Obviouslypodcasting for me has quite a
(02:19):
big parallel with stand upcomedy, because the thing about
standup is essentially it's acomedian and a microphone that
is not much different to apodcast.
James Cridlan (02:32):
It's interesting.
Jon Thoday (02:33):
So it doesn't have the cost of making a TV show or
film or theater play or anythinglike that. It's got a low
barrier to entry, which is agreat thing for podcasters.
James Cridlan (02:47):
Yeah. No, indeed.
And I didn't realize you lookedafter Shagged, Married, Annoyed,
which is a massive show.
Jon Thoday (02:54):
Yeah. We produce. We produce.
James Cridland (02:56):
Yeah. Yeah. A podcast going to be more
important for Avalon goingforward or is it you know, is it
is it just, you know, one of themany things that Avalon that
that Avalon to.
Jon Thoday (03:09):
If while people that we work with want to do podcasts,
they will be important and I'mhoping that the podcasts will
continue to grow. So WTF withMarc Maron in the U.S.. We
represent that. So we have wehave quite a lot of global
podcasts that we work with allproduce. It's super simple. I
(03:30):
mean, it. I've always been a fanof Radio four, and actually when
podcast came along, it wasfinally there was an alternative.
James Cridland (03:38):
Yeah, indeed.
Jon Thoday (03:40):
I remember being I remember going to the U.S.
saying to people, there's noreal right here for the U.S.
People say there's no market forit. And I. I always thought
there was, I think, podcast toprove that there definitely is.
James Cridland (03:53):
Yeah. Yeah. No, indeed. So. So what should what
do you tell the people that you.
You represent? I'm trying hardnot to use the word talent
because I've been told we're notallowed to use it anymore.
Jon Thoday (04:04):
They are talent. I don't know. Why aren't lousy? Is
it good talent?
James Cridland (04:07):
Yes.
Jon Thoday (04:08):
Who said you can't use it.
James Cridland (04:10):
Tim Davie. You know what he's like.
Jon Thoday (04:12):
Yeah, well, Tim Davie is wrong.
James Cridland (04:15):
Well, they.
Jon Thoday (04:16):
I mean, I don't know what you talking about. The idea
that the BBC can change whatpeople go. It's such rubbish.
James Cridland (04:23):
What should Be aware of when they're signing a
contract for a podcast. I mean,I'm sure that you would say get
a great agent. But what elseshould they be aware of?
Jon Thoday (04:33):
It depends on whose idea is is the answer to the
question. If it's the personthat has asked them to do this
idea and they own the IP, Iworry about certain things. And
if it's like we manage MattForde, Who does the British
scandal for Wondery it's a greatpodcast. Obviously it
(04:53):
pre-existed and very successfulin America, very successful here.
And in that kind of situation,it's you're thinking more about
just what's the phase and doesthe ask is what will it be good
for? If the artists is thoughtof it all the talent, let's call
them the talent, then it's acase of trying to make sure that
(05:17):
you're on the best platform andyou've got you continue to have
creative control. one of theslight problems of the BBC
getting involved at all costsbecause they have to comply,
which is actually the wholepoint of a podcast, is it? The
freedom of the creator,
James Cridland (05:34):
Yes.
Jon Thoday (05:34):
which is what is one of the things that's exciting
about it, whether it be length,content, etc..
If you're if it's your idea andyou own it, is to try and make
sure you retain as much of it aspossible to the extent that
often the risk is taken by thebroadcaster.
James Cridland (05:51):
So lots of podcasts also obviously going in
to video now. I was in L.A. lastweek. The launch of Spotify. You
know, video stuff for podcasting.
Jon Thoday (06:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
James Cridland (06:06):
Yeah. What are your thoughts on podcasting and
video?
Jon Thoday (06:09):
Well, I think it's a way of increasing the
monetization for people that aretrying to monetize.
James Cridland (06:15):
Yeah.
Jon Thoday (06:16):
Personally, I think really podcasts are an audio
product and unless you reallylike it when you watch a radio
show being you, you know,there's cameras in the radio
station. I'm less convinced it'ssomething that I think the
podcast itself is a bigger stepforward than a video of a
podcast in the same way that theradio show when radio was
(06:39):
invented was a much bigger stepforward than just filming a
radio show, because I soondiscovered that television
requires other sorts ofproduction values. But that's a
personal view. There are reasonsto do podcast on video. But I
think with regard to Spotify,Spotify, we've got something
right, which is that YouTubeunderpay that talent. The ad
(07:01):
revenue CPM is too low, so ifSpotify can make their streaming
platform work. It's got a bigadvance for people on YouTube
because it could be a case thatthey gravitate over to Spotify
because Spotify is in a lot ofhomes. But I am less sure about
Spotify for a podcast per se.
James Cridland (07:23):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the devil is in the
detail and we don't necessarilyknow much of the detail quite
yet in terms of that. I've justgot two other questions. I'm
just curious how podcastinglooks from your world. Is it a
tiny part of your world? And ifit is, if it wants to grow?
What's your advice to theindustry?
Jon Thoday (07:45):
Don't ruin it with programmatic ads. Is my advice
to the industry.
James Cridland (07:53):
How how do they ruin it?
Jon Thoday (07:55):
Well, I think that I personally think that one of the
great things about podcast isthat the the read the original
read, the baked in read which islike Marc Maron only does baked
in reads in the US is very userfriendly and I think podcasts
become ultimately monetized likeradio. You're just going to end
(08:19):
up with more and moreadvertising in it, a lower and
lower CPM. And I think thatpotentially damages the user
experience. And I think that thereason the podcast works is a
sort of relationship between thethe person that listens to the
podcast, that which is sort ofdifferent to radio. And I think
(08:42):
the, you know, particularly inAmerica, the amount of spots for
advertising will inevitably goup and up and up. And the way
the advertising sold is often asmooth operation by the platform,
which isn't in the spirit oforiginal podcasting. It was
originally there monetizedthrough reads to give an
(09:06):
opportunity to create forcreative talent, to kind of do
the thing they like to do. Andmaybe people will like it or
maybe they won't. And I thinkthat's what's exciting about
podcasts, is the underratednature of it and how easy it is
for a podcaster to do it. So notfail a lot succeed. And I think
that's what's great aboutpodcasting. I'm a huge fan of
(09:29):
stand up comedy, the EdinburghFestival. Podcasting, to some
extent, writing novels, all ofwhich are novels obviously have
to find a publisher. But to someextent now people do can do on
their own. They're all thingswhich are pure creative items
with relatively little curation.
That is what can lead to themost exciting work.
James Cridland (09:52):
One final question. You did the first
arena comedy show with Newman.
and Baddiel. Shagged married,annoyed have also done live
shows.
Jon Thoday (10:01):
Yes.
James Cridland (10:01):
Well, how how important are live shows to the
podcasting world? We're seeingmore of them happen,
particularly in the US. Are youorganizing more of them for some
of the talent that you work with?
Jon Thoday (10:14):
We do lots of live stand up and now we do lots of
live podcasts as well. And thereis a kind of hybrid between the
two. I think the answer is ifyou can do a good show with a
podcast, it's a really good idea.
But I think you need to thinkabout what your live performance
is to make sure that the userexperience is good and people
will come back the next time. Sowhen Chris and Rosie get ready
(10:37):
to do a live show, they put alot of work into that.
James Cridland (10:42):
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Hmm.
Jon Thoday (10:42):
There's the development phase that you need
to go through, and it'scertainly exciting that somebody
could do a podcast, find thepodcast, get successful, and
then be able to play small,medium, big arena sized venues
without having to have a hittelevision show first. I mean,
just to say, we're massive fansof podcasting and I think it's a
(11:07):
great new media and relativelynew medium, particularly when
the hands of people are on radioor so tied by all sorts of
history, historical things, tobe able to have the freedom of
podcasting is something weshould all cherish.
James Cridland (11:23):
John, thank you.
I appreciate it.
Jon Thoday (11:24):
The pleasure.
We just have an agreement with Absolute that we
can take the food with us and wedo. So we just made that
agreement with them. Andobviously, anybody who knows
anything about poker knows thatvery ideally you have your own
feed and it follows you. And ingeneral, I think it's best to
have podcaster owned by thepodcaster and get a podcast. If
(00:35):
you want to be portable, youneed to also you need the feed.
So it's not really any morecomplicated than that. We
produce podcasts and we alsorepresent podcasts and we've
been doing it. To be honest,since David Baddiel and Frank
Skinner did a podcast for theWorld Cup in the early 2000s
before people knew what readswere. So we've been doing it for
(00:56):
quite a long time. And obviouslyThe Bugle, which was John Oliver
and Andy Zaltzman going all theway back then, which was
originally funded by The Times
James Cridland (01:06):
One of yours as well, was it?
Jon Thoday (01:07):
Yeah? Yeah.
James Cridland (01:08):
It. It turns out that I watch very little
television, but all of myfavorites. Taskmaster. Last week.
Tonight, Russell Howard. It'sall you say. It's.
Jon Thoday (01:17):
Thank you.
James Cridland (01:18):
So thank you for that.
Jon Thoday (01:19):
It's really it's really John Oliver, Alex Horne
and Russell Howard.
James Cridland (01:23):
Yeah.
Jon Thoday (01:25):
So, yes, thank you.
We're lucky enough to work withsome brilliant people.
James Cridland (01:28):
So how important is podcasting for the kind of
shows that Avalon has?
Jon Thoday (01:32):
I wouldn't put it like that. Really? We we sort of
came upon podcasts in the early2000 when Keith Blackmore, who
was then sports as the of theTimes and he went on to be the
deputy editor, called me up andsaid, We heard of this thing
called the podcast, which to befrank, I hadn't heard of. And I
(01:54):
think at that time, RickyGervais might have been dealing
with The Guardian.
James Cridland (01:58):
He was.
Jon Thoday (01:59):
That's that was how we got involved with poker. So
because we work closely withtalent, we tend to get involved
in all sorts of media. So ifit's a medium or a TV show,
we're often involved with it.
I've, as I say, producing it orrepresenting the artist if they
want to do podcasting. Obviouslypodcasting for me has quite a
(02:19):
big parallel with stand upcomedy, because the thing about
standup is essentially it's acomedian and a microphone that
is not much different to apodcast.
James Cridlan (02:32):
It's interesting.
Jon Thoday (02:33):
So it doesn't have the cost of making a TV show or
film or theater play or anythinglike that. It's got a low
barrier to entry, which is agreat thing for podcasters.
James Cridlan (02:47):
Yeah. No, indeed.
And I didn't realize you lookedafter Shagged, Married, Annoyed,
which is a massive show.
Jon Thoday (02:54):
Yeah. We produce. We produce.
James Cridland (02:56):
Yeah. Yeah. A podcast going to be more
important for Avalon goingforward or is it you know, is it
is it just, you know, one of themany things that Avalon that
that Avalon to.
Jon Thoday (03:09):
If while people that we work with want to do podcasts,
they will be important and I'mhoping that the podcasts will
continue to grow. So WTF withMarc Maron in the U.S.. We
represent that. So we have wehave quite a lot of global
podcasts that we work with allproduce. It's super simple. I
(03:30):
mean, it. I've always been a fanof Radio four, and actually when
podcast came along, it wasfinally there was an alternative.
James Cridland (03:38):
Yeah, indeed.
Jon Thoday (03:40):
I remember being I remember going to the U.S.
saying to people, there's noreal right here for the U.S.
People say there's no market forit. And I. I always thought
there was, I think, podcast toprove that there definitely is.
James Cridland (03:53):
Yeah. Yeah. No, indeed. So. So what should what
do you tell the people that you.
You represent? I'm trying hardnot to use the word talent
because I've been told we're notallowed to use it anymore.
Jon Thoday (04:04):
They are talent. I don't know. Why aren't lousy? Is
it good talent?
James Cridland (04:07):
Yes.
Jon Thoday (04:08):
Who said you can't use it.
James Cridland (04:10):
Tim Davie. You know what he's like.
Jon Thoday (04:12):
Yeah, well, Tim Davie is wrong.
James Cridland (04:15):
Well, they.
Jon Thoday (04:16):
I mean, I don't know what you talking about. The idea
that the BBC can change whatpeople go. It's such rubbish.
James Cridland (04:23):
What should Be aware of when they're signing a
contract for a podcast. I mean,I'm sure that you would say get
a great agent. But what elseshould they be aware of?
Jon Thoday (04:33):
It depends on whose idea is is the answer to the
question. If it's the personthat has asked them to do this
idea and they own the IP, Iworry about certain things. And
if it's like we manage MattForde, Who does the British
scandal for Wondery it's a greatpodcast. Obviously it
(04:53):
pre-existed and very successfulin America, very successful here.
And in that kind of situation,it's you're thinking more about
just what's the phase and doesthe ask is what will it be good
for? If the artists is thoughtof it all the talent, let's call
them the talent, then it's acase of trying to make sure that
(05:17):
you're on the best platform andyou've got you continue to have
creative control. one of theslight problems of the BBC
getting involved at all costsbecause they have to comply,
which is actually the wholepoint of a podcast, is it? The
freedom of the creator,
James Cridland (05:34):
Yes.
Jon Thoday (05:34):
which is what is one of the things that's exciting
about it, whether it be length,content, etc..
If you're if it's your idea andyou own it, is to try and make
sure you retain as much of it aspossible to the extent that
often the risk is taken by thebroadcaster.
James Cridland (05:51):
So lots of podcasts also obviously going in
to video now. I was in L.A. lastweek. The launch of Spotify. You
know, video stuff for podcasting.
Jon Thoday (06:04):
Yeah, absolutely.
James Cridland (06:06):
Yeah. What are your thoughts on podcasting and
video?
Jon Thoday (06:09):
Well, I think it's a way of increasing the
monetization for people that aretrying to monetize.
James Cridland (06:15):
Yeah.
Jon Thoday (06:16):
Personally, I think really podcasts are an audio
product and unless you reallylike it when you watch a radio
show being you, you know,there's cameras in the radio
station. I'm less convinced it'ssomething that I think the
podcast itself is a bigger stepforward than a video of a
podcast in the same way that theradio show when radio was
(06:39):
invented was a much bigger stepforward than just filming a
radio show, because I soondiscovered that television
requires other sorts ofproduction values. But that's a
personal view. There are reasonsto do podcast on video. But I
think with regard to Spotify,Spotify, we've got something
right, which is that YouTubeunderpay that talent. The ad
(07:01):
revenue CPM is too low, so ifSpotify can make their streaming
platform work. It's got a bigadvance for people on YouTube
because it could be a case thatthey gravitate over to Spotify
because Spotify is in a lot ofhomes. But I am less sure about
Spotify for a podcast per se.
James Cridland (07:23):
Yeah. Yeah. And I think the devil is in the
detail and we don't necessarilyknow much of the detail quite
yet in terms of that. I've justgot two other questions. I'm
just curious how podcastinglooks from your world. Is it a
tiny part of your world? And ifit is, if it wants to grow?
What's your advice to theindustry?
Jon Thoday (07:45):
Don't ruin it with programmatic ads. Is my advice
to the industry.
James Cridland (07:53):
How how do they ruin it?
Jon Thoday (07:55):
Well, I think that I personally think that one of the
great things about podcast isthat the the read the original
read, the baked in read which islike Marc Maron only does baked
in reads in the US is very userfriendly and I think podcasts
become ultimately monetized likeradio. You're just going to end
(08:19):
up with more and moreadvertising in it, a lower and
lower CPM. And I think thatpotentially damages the user
experience. And I think that thereason the podcast works is a
sort of relationship between thethe person that listens to the
podcast, that which is sort ofdifferent to radio. And I think
(08:42):
the, you know, particularly inAmerica, the amount of spots for
advertising will inevitably goup and up and up. And the way
the advertising sold is often asmooth operation by the platform,
which isn't in the spirit oforiginal podcasting. It was
originally there monetizedthrough reads to give an
(09:06):
opportunity to create forcreative talent, to kind of do
the thing they like to do. Andmaybe people will like it or
maybe they won't. And I thinkthat's what's exciting about
podcasts, is the underratednature of it and how easy it is
for a podcaster to do it. So notfail a lot succeed. And I think
that's what's great aboutpodcasting. I'm a huge fan of
(09:29):
stand up comedy, the EdinburghFestival. Podcasting, to some
extent, writing novels, all ofwhich are novels obviously have
to find a publisher. But to someextent now people do can do on
their own. They're all thingswhich are pure creative items
with relatively little curation.
That is what can lead to themost exciting work.
James Cridland (09:52):
One final question. You did the first
arena comedy show with Newman.
and Baddiel. Shagged married,annoyed have also done live
shows.
Jon Thoday (10:01):
Yes.
James Cridland (10:01):
Well, how how important are live shows to the
podcasting world? We're seeingmore of them happen,
particularly in the US. Are youorganizing more of them for some
of the talent that you work with?
Jon Thoday (10:14):
We do lots of live stand up and now we do lots of
live podcasts as well. And thereis a kind of hybrid between the
two. I think the answer is ifyou can do a good show with a
podcast, it's a really good idea.
But I think you need to thinkabout what your live performance
is to make sure that the userexperience is good and people
will come back the next time. Sowhen Chris and Rosie get ready
(10:37):
to do a live show, they put alot of work into that.
James Cridland (10:42):
Hmm. Hmm. Hmm.
Hmm.
Jon Thoday (10:42):
There's the development phase that you need
to go through, and it'scertainly exciting that somebody
could do a podcast, find thepodcast, get successful, and
then be able to play small,medium, big arena sized venues
without having to have a hittelevision show first. I mean,
just to say, we're massive fansof podcasting and I think it's a
(11:07):
great new media and relativelynew medium, particularly when
the hands of people are on radioor so tied by all sorts of
history, historical things, tobe able to have the freedom of
podcasting is something weshould all cherish.
James Cridland (11:23):
John, thank you.
I appreciate it.
Jon Thoday (11:24):
The pleasure.
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