November 28, 2024 • 30 mins
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Nick Dunkerley, Director of Hindenburg Systems, discusses their professional audio editing software, Hindenburg Pro 2, which is designed for serious podcasters and journalists. He explains how the software differs from typical DAWs by focusing on speed and efficiency while maintaining high production quality, with features like offline transcription that prioritize security for journalists working with sensitive material.
The conversation delves into Hindenburg's approach to AI, with Dunkerley revealing they've been using AI-like features before it became trendy. He introduces an intriguing concept called "proof of work," drawing parallels between blockchain technology and content creation, suggesting that creators need to demonstrate unique value and human effort to stand out in an AI-dominated landscape.
Dunkerley shares insights about the company's future direction, hinting at upcoming features for professional content creators who work across multiple audio formats. He emphasizes their commitment to serving professional storytellers and journalists, maintaining that while AI tools are valuable assistants, they shouldn't replace the skill and judgment of experienced professionals in creating high-quality content.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
James Cridland (00:12):
Hello and welcome back to the Podnews
Extra feed of the Podnews WeeklyReview. I'm James Cridland and
today very excited to bespeaking to somebody who is
currently sitting on the firstfloor in
Knabrostræde in Copenhagen inDenmark. How is that, Nic?
Nick Dunkerley (00:31):
It was so good.
James Cridland (00:37):
Nick Dunkerley from Hindenburg Systems. Nick,
what are you at Hindenburg? Areyou a Joint Joint CEO, or how
does that work?
Nick Dunkerley (00:47):
Yeah, we. It's a good one. Me and my partner, we
now both call ourselvesdirectors
James Cridland (00:54):
Director.
Nick Dunkerley (00:55):
because I don't really fancy. It's an old
fashioned word. I like the worddirector. Something that you can
imagine of a you know, wesomeone who builds trains or
something needs to be buildingstuff. The whole CEO thing, I
don't really take to that. Butif you were to put that C title
on this, I probably be the CEO.
James Cridland (01:15):
Well, there we are for a company called
Hindenburg Systems, which, ofcourse, produces Hindenburg Pro.
Uh, by the way, I write when I'mflying somewhere and they ask me
for my job title, then I don'twrite editor because that looks
as if I'm a journalist and Iwrite about things. So I just
write Director as well. Directorseems to work for everything so
(01:36):
far as I'm concerned. Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (01:37):
It's a lovely title.
James Cridland (01:39):
So let's start by asking you, Nick, what is
Hindenburg pro?
Nick Dunkerley (01:44):
Well, basically Hindenburg Pro is another DAW
digital audio workstation.
James Cridland (01:49):
What do you mean by DAW?
Nick Dunkerley (01:51):
I just said a digital audio workstation. So
it's a it's a piece of softwarewhere you can edit your audio,
you can record your voices, youcan add your interviews, add
music, ambience, and you can mixthem all together and until you
have a final piece. that's whatit is in essence,
James Cridland (02:13):
So it's it's and I know that you hate this, but
it's similar to something likeProTools or
Nick Dunkerley (02:18):
it.
James Cridland (02:18):
Audacity or Reaper or those sorts of tools.
And we might we will come backto why you don't necessarily
like that too much. But that'sbut that's the sort of thing
Hindenburg Pro You make a pieceof software for audio books as
well. But Hindenburg pro cameout with Hindenburg Pro 2, about
(02:39):
a year ago now. So what's newabout Hindenburg Pro, 2? If
anybody doesn't know?
Nick Dunkerley (02:46):
Well, very briefly, we might say that
Hindenburg one had been on themarket for nearly 15 years and
has been servicing radiojournalists and podcasters all
over the world. And we thoughtit was time to make an update.
We hadn't made an update. Well,we had obviously made changes,
(03:07):
but we hadn't charged for anupgrade in all those years. So
that's one thing that's new forus. And the other thing was,
well, if we're going to do that,we definitely want to put some
new features in there that, say,users have been looking for. So
we spent a huge amount of timeredoing the whole UI, which is
(03:29):
how it looks and feels. But alsoadding new features to it. So we
have transcription in there.
We've expanded the clipboard,which turned out to be a huge
success, so we had to make aneven better one. And we've also
added other stuff like you canimport video. Yeah, so it's,
it's been interesting and a hugeamount of work, but we're really
(03:50):
proud of what we ended up with.
James Cridland (03:53):
And the transcript stuff you are doing,
as some other companies aredoing, editing by transcripts as
well as you can highlight aparagraph or something, press
the delete button and it goesaway from the audio as well,
right?
Nick Dunkerley (04:06):
Yes, it works that way. I wouldn't necessarily
recommend that you do it notjust in ours, just in general. A
But that's just because I'm aradio person. I think
James Cridland (04:18):
Yes.
Nick Dunkerley (04:18):
having a script there is an amazing feature for
for navigating your material,getting a better overview of
your story for searching forkeywords and for doing rough
edits. It's amazing, really isit just speeds up your process.
Which is what Hindenburg is allabout at the end of the day, is
(04:41):
you once week high endproductions. But many of our
users are professionals, so theyare also at a tight deadline. So
is finding that sweet balancebetween speed and quality. And
the transcription really helpsspeed up things.
James Cridland (04:58):
Yeah, I mean, I use it to edit this very show
every single week. And thePodnews Daily, of course, the
Podnews weekly review. Iliterally I go through, I get it
to produce a transcripts andthen I go through and edit out
everything that Sam says. That'sbasically my plan. Now I see
some of these stories thatdidn't really work so well and
(05:20):
try desperately to fit it into90 minutes or so, and it is
super useful just for thatinitial work. And then you go in
and you edit it properly. likeyou, I'm an old fashioned radio
person and I rather enjoy, youknow, doing a proper job of the
audio editing. But it's a greatfirst start to go. Actually, I
(05:43):
want this question and thisanswer up here rather than down
there, and then I will go in andmake sure that all of that works
flawlessly. Now, how about Pro 2has been going for, as I say,
for a year as a user every day.
I've seen some impressivechanges in it. All of a sudden,
in the middle of this year, itbecame far faster to use the
transcription tool and variousother things. What sort of it
(06:07):
has it been? Basically making itas flawless as you possibly can
over the last year, or have youadded a bunch of new features
that we've not actually spottedover the last year as well?
Nick Dunkerley (06:22):
No, I think absolutely. We try to tweak it.
It's. A whole ethos when itcomes to features is we don't
just want to add features, justjust to add features. We really
spend a long time thinking aboutthe ones that we put in there
and how we put them in there.
Because if we we've just addednew features every time someone
(06:42):
asks us for a feature, it wouldprobably well be bloated for one
thing. But also the featureswouldn't necessarily make sense
for most people. But make anexample going back, you remember
maybe the magic levels.
James Cridland (06:59):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (07:00):
That came based on sound designers and sound
engineers who are saying, well,we have problems with bleed and
could you please adds sidechained gate. Now, there's
probably like 80% of all usershave no idea what I just said.
Any of it makes any sensewhatsoever. So our approach is,
(07:25):
well, we understand what theproblem is, but this is not the
solution. So then we try to findanother way of approaching the
same problem, then came up withmagic levels, which basically
just removes bleed. You justhighlight everything pressure,
magic levels and usually goesaway and again, that we tweak
that feature, you through time,but we don't change the feature,
(07:48):
just add new ones. And it's thesame thing that we do with other
things. We keep just improvingit because most of the time you
don't new features, you justneed what you have to be stable
and work and work quickly.
James Cridland (08:00):
Yeah. And I think, you know, the history of
Hindenburg is I mean, it used tobe called Hindenburg journalist
a while back. And it was really,you know, as I've been
explaining it to people,
Nick Dunkerley (08:12):
Yeah.
James Cridland (08:12):
it's there as a tool for journalists to make
great sounding audio readerreally quickly so that they can
get it onto the radio really,really fast. I don't know
whether that's entirely,entirely the way that you would
normally talk it out, but thatcertainly seems to me to be the
real value of a tool likeHindenburg Pro in that it is
(08:35):
very, very capable and also doesits job very, very quickly as
well.
Nick Dunkerley (08:40):
And that is exactly right. And that is
actually the value. Because if,as you know yourself, if you're
working towards a deadline andthis is more than being able to
meet your deadline is morevaluable than anything else.
So there might be tools outthere that have more bells and
whistles. And there definitelyare. But again, for us, that's
(09:04):
on purpose. the point isn't whatyou potentially can make if you
all the time in the world. Ourmission is how much can you make,
how creative can you be within avery restricted time limit? And
that is a completely differentapproach to a product.
James Cridland (09:20):
Yeah. And that's very different to something like
ProTools, which is sitting there,you know, for you to make a make
a pop album on that and you know,and it's very good at that. It's
very good at giving you, youknow, four weeks to make a 30
minute program. But in terms ofthe fast turnarounds that
podcasting is there for, youknow, arguably I would have
(09:44):
thought ProTools and logic andthose sorts of tools are
probably rather more than youreally need. Would that be fair?
Nick Dunkerle (09:52):
That's very fair.
And they were never built forthis kind of production. And if
you ask them, they will probablyagree. I, I would imagine they
said, yeah, sure, you can useProTools or a logic for, for
radio production or podcastproduction. But at the same time,
I'm pretty sure they would say,but it's not what it's built for.
This is built for logic, forinstance, for music production.
(10:13):
No, ProTools is also obviouslyfor music production, but even
more for film production. Andthese are situations where you
have, well, still a deadline,obviously, but maybe a deadline
is in six months, which is adifferent situation than if
you're a day to day radiojournalist and your deadline is
in 3 hours.
James Cridland (10:34):
Well, I mean, I notice on your website that
you've got quite the the who'swho of customers in here. You've
got, uh, Deutsche Welle in here,who I believe we have to call
D.W. these days, WNYC, but alsoRadio Romania. Um, NPR, Stanford
University, the Sorbonne, allkinds of really large
(10:59):
organizations using you and, youknow, you. It's a very different,
um, you know, it's a verydifferent client list, I would
expect, than, you know, manypeople who are using, you know,
the scripts and the, and thepodcasts of this world.
Nick Dunkerley (11:17):
Yes, it is.
Hindenburg has always beendesigned for for people who
don't have an engineeringbackground. That means if you
are just starting out in youraudio storytelling career, you
can start with the Hindenburg,if you like. you shouldn't be
intimidated by the professionalsusing it. it's a fairly
(11:37):
straightforward to jump into,but you might not necessarily
understand all the benefits ofit from the beginning, but later
on you will.
James Cridland (11:48):
Yeah. And I think that that is actually
exactly what I learned. So I wasusing audacity and fighting
audacity every day. AndHindenburg was a real pain for
about the first week. And afterthe first week it was, Oh, no, I
understand this now I've gotthere. I mean, even everything
from the wavefile looks toeverything else. Nick, the
(12:10):
reason why you're on is we got aboost the other week from Georg
Dahm or George Dahm, as I may beincorrectly calling him. And
anyway, he says, Could you getthe Hindenburg guys onto the
podcast? I've got one of them.
It would be great to hear howthings have been going since the
switch to a subscription model.
It says Here Now. Hindenburg Proalways had a subscription model,
(12:32):
I think, as well as a buy outmodel. So you can buy the
software if you like, or you canjust essentially rent it every
single month. That's notparticularly new, is it?
Nick Dunkerley (12:42):
Well, to be honest, he's right. It is fairly
new. We've had it for some yearsnow, and before that it was only
about you can just purchase it.
It is it is a perpetual license,so to speak. But then we
introduce subscription, but westill have both. You can choose.
So we've just added the option.
(13:03):
But because again, it'd a veryniche products, it also has a
fairly high price and and somepeople just found that price a
bit too steep and were askingwell could you do a subscription
model instead. And so we did
James Cridland (13:19):
Yeah. and so essentially you can buy the
software forever. And I thinkthe only costs going on are the
transcription, if you wish touse that, because that says, uh,
a service that you buy in. Butaccepting that I think that is,
that is the only,
Nick Dunkerley (13:34):
yes.
James Cridland (13:35):
the only cost of actually running the thing. Or
you can use it as a subscription,you know, as you go, um, as you
go through it. Georg also asks,How are you competing with all
the transcript based editors outthere? I mean, clearly, since
Hindenburg's started there hasbeen quite a growth in things
(13:57):
like descriptors e.g. byheadliner podcasts, all a bunch
of these other tools. I thinkAdobe has just released one as
well, which is supposed to be areally easy, simple,
straightforward way of editing apodcast. Um, and do you, do you
see yourselves as being incompetition with those tools or
(14:20):
where do you sort of fit?
Nick Dunkerley (14:23):
the way that we approach our products and how we
think of our core audience. Theyare professional audio
storytellers and the way thatthey use transcription. is for
for searching and doing roughedits. So it's a slightly
different approach to if you'reusing transcription and in the
(14:45):
sense that if you've never triedto do audio before using
transcription is the same asediting in the word documents.
That's that's a very differentapproach to saying that having
our approach is havingtranscription will just speed up
your professional work on a dayto day basis, So all in
(15:05):
incomplete as well. Yes, but thecrossover is not that deliberate
from my point of view, with thecrossover, when it comes to to
the audience, we're notnecessarily seeking the
beginners. We would love to havethem aboard. That's not the
point. But that's notnecessarily our target audience.
(15:25):
It very much seems that when itcomes to scripts in Adobe, their
approach is we want to targetvery specifically the first time
podcasters.
James Cridland (15:37):
Yeah. And I think from that point of view,
you are you are very differentaren't you. You are you are
focusing. I mean, you know,people will get the most out of
you if they are a seriouspodcaster, if they are producing
audio in a serious way andprobably producing a large
volume of audio as well incomparison to some of these new,
(15:58):
you know, if you're a brand new,um, a brand new person to
podcasting, then, you know, Imean, frankly, you know, they
may not be quite as much of aneed for this sort of of, of a
tool. One of the things that Ilike about Hindenburg is being
able to hit that publish buttonand to publish in whatever weird
and wonderful format I need intoa particular place on my
(16:22):
computer or a particular placeon the cloud or even, you know,
upload it up to post sponsor orwhoever it might be. You know,
that that is super, super useful.
Nick Dunkerley (16:35):
It's a very it's a very specific need, isn't it?
You have to be at a certainpoint in your career to
appreciate that.
James Cridland (16:43):
It is.
Nick Dunkerley (16:45):
So if a were to kind of think of it, I would say
that yes, should start outwithin. But but it actually
first really makes sense whenyou start producing, as you were
saying regularly, when you'vegotten to like your 20th episode
and you start feeling the painof doing a a weekly or monthly
(17:05):
whatever podcast you're doing,and then it becomes a job. This
is where you start finding allthe small benefits and you say,
Oh, okay, now I understand whythe clipboard is there. Now I
understand why the publishedtools. They now understand what
the voice produce profile isthere. But up until that point I
can try to explain it to youuntil, you know, the cows come
(17:29):
in. It's not going to make anysense if you haven't felt that
pain yet.
James Cridlan (17:33):
Yeah. No, indeed.
Indeed. And it and it's probablyalso worth just mentioning,
given that given that it turnsout that you are that you're on
a boat at the moment speaking tous, it's probably worthwhile
mentioning the Hindenburg probeitself is a very small computer
program. It doesn't take much todownload, and everything that
you do is offline. Even thetranscription is offline, which
(17:56):
is a
Nick Dunkerley (17:58):
Yes.
James Cridland (17:58):
super useful thing. I'll tell you for
somebody that quite often has toedit podcasts and things on
aeroplanes and everythingelsewhere, the internet is awful
or non-existent. So that's auseful thing to.
Nick Dunkerley (18:11):
It is not only useful, actually, is it? For us,
it was crucial. Well, one thingis useful on the plane. I get
that the mobility thing. Andalso if you're in the middle of
a war zone or something is quiteuseful to be able to do that.
But the most important thing wassecurity. At the moment when
we're uploading something fortranscription, we don't really
(18:34):
have any idea who's listening inon that audio.
James Cridland (18:39):
Hmm.
Nick Dunkerley (18:39):
And there has already been cases where, you
know, and that was a veryunfortunate case where it was
journalists was, was, was doingan interview with a minority
group in China and suddenly washad to knock on the door from
the Chinese government. And sowhen it comes to, again, the
professionals, I had a longerchat with an editor from The New
(19:03):
York Times about this and saidthey would never lie, can never
use online transcription toolswhen it comes to sensitive
material,
James Cridland (19:14):
Mm hmm. Because you never know who's going to
hear that and who's going
Nick Dunkerley (19:17):
you
James Cridland (19:17):
to
Nick Dunkerley (19:17):
know.
James Cridlan (19:18):
use that as a, I, you know,
training and all of that kind ofstuff. Keeping something
Nick Dunkerley (19:26):
Yeah.
James Cridland (19:26):
on
Nick Dunkerley (19:26):
There's.
James Cridland (19:26):
your own.
Nick Dunkerley (19:26):
There's that on top of
James Cridland (19:27):
Massively
Nick Dunkerley (19:27):
it.
James Cridland (19:27):
important.
Nick Dunkerley (19:27):
Yes.
James Cridland (19:28):
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (19:29):
So. So if you do have sensitive material and
again, this might not make senseif you're making a comedy
podcast, you know, why would it?
But for for some people andagain, we do realize some of the
things that we have in therethat we find important for a
very niche audience, but someonehas to serve that audience. And
(19:49):
to be honest, we love what we do.
So, you know, if no one else isgoing to go for it, we will.
James Cridland (19:57):
No, indeed, indeed. And worth while also
mentioning that it supportsthings like, you know,
transcripts in a sort of format.
So it works fine with podcasting2.0 and all of that and does a
and does a fine job, you know,in terms of all that stuff and
will even sort out your LUFSlevels as well. More details on
that on the Podnews website. Sowhat's coming up for Hindenburg?
(20:18):
You've had a change at the toprecently. What
Nick Dunkerley (20:26):
Yeah.
James Cridland (20:27):
sort of are there any changes to the way
that the company will work inthe future and any new products
that your currently working on?
Nick Dunkerley (20:38):
Yes.
James Cridland (20:41):
Good. Well,
Nick Dunkerley (20:44):
This wraps up this.
James Cridland (20:46):
any clues as to what might be.
Nick Dunkerley (20:49):
I just have to be careful what I say. But. But
yes, as you might be able tohear from what we've already
talked about and our directionnow is very much on the
professional market. And and
James Cridland (21:05):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (21:06):
again, we're not trying to alienate anyone. We're
not going to make it so that youcan't use it is just we want to
be able to expand it. Okay. Letme put it in the broad sense. If
you are working professionallywith with storytelling. And that
could be as a podcaster, butthat might also be you have to
(21:30):
do some side work as a voiceoverartist. You might be narrating
audiobooks, that kind of thing,where we're going looking into
the future and if somewhatshorter term is that we want to
be able to have more tools inthere so that you as a
(21:51):
professional can do all youryour different products in one
tool. I hope that makes sense.
James Cridland (21:57):
Yeah. No, that does that does make a bit of
sense. That's that's relativelycryptic, but that does make.
Nick Dunkerley (22:05):
Well. I can't say too much about the specific
features, but is is just to saythat they it's difficult enough
as it is
James Cridland (22:13):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (22:14):
and to to try to you know, get food on the table
as a voiceover artist or apodcaster. So we're just
thinking, okay, what can we doagain to make your work as
seamless and as fun, to behonest as possible, but at the
same time, make sure that you'reso effective that you can
(22:35):
actually earn money. Becausemany of the things that we do,
we do spend so much money. If Icome with an example, I know
we're not necessarily talkingabout audiobooks here, but when
it comes to people who narratingaudiobooks and they can spend a
lot of time just on the readingof the book, but then they take
(22:56):
can take a large percentage oftheir income and give that to an
audio editor for them to then goin and set levels. And make sure
that all the the noise levelsare set correctly and save money
and not get a lot of money inthe first place. And to just to
do their day to day work. Sosome of the things we already
(23:16):
have that in that way to makethat easier, but we're going to
be migrating some of those ideasback to in by pro. So you as a
professional again can just haveone tool that you can use for
most of your jobs
James Cridland (23:28):
And everybody is putting into their tools my
email. Software updated todaywith Apple intelligence in it.
What's your stance on AI? Howwill you be using A.I. as you
move forward?
Nick Dunkerley (23:45):
Ah, it's a good one. To be honest, we've been
using a lie before anyone evenhad an idea what I was. Because
in a sense, I is just takingsomeone else's knowledge, being
knowledge and applying it to asa tool to what you want to do.
So you could argue that a voiceprofile, for instance, that's a
(24:06):
lie, but it's just based on avery narrow group of people,
which was us at the office, soto speak. But the the ideas
around a machine learning, we'regoing to be using them also.
Looking forward, we're going tobe making more voice restoration
tools. I know we've promisedvoice restoration tools for a
(24:29):
long time, but it turned out tobe slightly more tricky than we
had hoped. But we are gettingthere and so we definitely will
be using it for that.
James Cridland (24:38):
Yeah.
Interesting. And you. You. Whenwe met in, uh, Denmark a few
weeks or so ago, you were. Youdangled the phrase proof of work
at me, but you never quiteexplained what it meant.
Nick Dunkerley (24:54):
No, the thing about proof of work is it is
basically just an idea that Ihad because I was been on a
panel. I was on a panel for a anAmerican organization for
journalists. And
James Cridland (25:10):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (25:12):
the questions that we get all the time is and
this is also on this panel, whatabout A.I.? What kind of tools
will be there to make my lifeeasier? And this is a
reoccurring theme. How can Imake my life easier? And I kind
of had to go the other way andsay, we have to be careful with
(25:34):
this because and if we just keepgoing down this path, we might
so might end up making ourselvesredundant. If if what you're
doing right now is mediocre.
Because to be honest, anyonewho's using A.I. tools for their
end products. They will be ableto produce the quality of
(25:56):
product that they can produce.
And anyone who's professionalwill know that it's it's okay,
but it's not a professionalproduct. It's a mediocre product.
And the issue with that is ifthat is kind of the standard
we're setting, that would alsomean that why would we need you?
(26:17):
And this is what I was saying toa bunch of journalists, Why
would we need you if we canreplace you with a in the first
place? So the whole point isthat A.I. is great as a tool,
but you have to make sure thatyou know what you're doing. You
need to be good enough at yourjob to be able to filter out. Is
(26:41):
this good? Is this usable? Sothere is that issue when it
comes to AIG. We can't just layback and depend on it to solve
our problems. If we don't havethe skill sets to actually
understand what quality is. Thenwe have a problem. And then
there's another problem goingback to the proof of work, which
(27:01):
is authenticity. Which also is atheme at the moments. How do you
know that something is actuallynot just being produced by some
bots? And we've all heard theexamples out there at the
moments for, for instance,Google Notes. It's quite amazing
what it can do. And obviouslythat's just going to be better
looking forward.
James Cridland (27:21):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (27:22):
So when it comes to how do we prove that there's
actually a person to personcommunication going on like the
one we have at the moment and,and I think at least that we can
steal ideas from the blockchain.
And one of them is a proof ofwork, which is basically the way
that Bitcoin works. And proof ofwork is, in a sense, a way of
(27:46):
peacocking, if that makes sense.
The peacock has a huge tail. Itdoesn't have to have a huge tail
does make any sense. The onlything that makes it slightly
more vulnerable to being killed.
But the reason it has it is toprove that it can survive. And
it's a bit the same thing whenit comes to proof of work, when
(28:07):
it comes to the blockchain.
Blockchain uses a huge amount ofenergy just to prove
James Cridland (28:15):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (28:15):
a is actually solving what would be an
unnecessarilycomplicated arithmetic. But the
point of it isn't to solve thearithmetic. The point is to use
that amount of energy. That'sthe whole point of it. Because
if you're using that amounts ofenergy, then someone else has to
put the same amounts of energyinto it to try to copy it. And
(28:38):
it doesn't make any sensebecause you're using, you know,
way too many resources on it. Soit doesn't make any sense to try
to copy it. And it's kind ofwhat I was trying to convey here
when it comes to our jobs. If wewant to stand out as being our
jobs is something special,something unique and something
(29:00):
that the the end user can hearthat there's a person they're
trying to communicate somethingof value. We need to apply more
effort. We need to go the otherway. We can't just say that I do
the job for us. We need to applywhat we're really good at and
then use A.I. as tools to helpus down that road.
James Cridland (29:24):
Yeah, that's very, very well. Well said thing.
And I know that Sam keeps ontalking about assisted
intelligence rather thanartificial intelligence.
Nick Dunkerley (29:34):
He's a clever man.
James Cridland (29:35):
He is a clever man. Don't go telling him that
face to face.
Nick Dunkerley (29:38):
No. God, no.
James Cridland (29:39):
Now, that would be a bad plan. It's been a great
pleasure having a chat with you,Nick. This isn't a painful thing,
but I would point out hindenburg.
com/podnews. You can actually gothere and get a three month
trial and a 30% money off onyour first year of Hindenburg
Pro. I only mention this becauseHindenburg very kindly give me a
(29:59):
year free use of your tool. Andso, therefore, you know, I think
that would be a good plan. Butdo go and have a play with it.
It is most definitely the toolfor the serious podcaster that
just wants to spend less timemixing and more time being more
creative. That would be a goodplan. Hindenburg dot com Like
(30:21):
the disaster slash pod news.
Nick, it's been a great pleasure.
Thank you so much for your time.
Nick Dunkerley (30:29):
It has been.
James, I thank you very much.
Hello and welcome back to the Podnews
Extra feed of the Podnews WeeklyReview. I'm James Cridland and
today very excited to bespeaking to somebody who is
currently sitting on the firstfloor in
Knabrostræde in Copenhagen inDenmark. How is that, Nic?
Nick Dunkerley (00:31):
It was so good.
James Cridland (00:37):
Nick Dunkerley from Hindenburg Systems. Nick,
what are you at Hindenburg? Areyou a Joint Joint CEO, or how
does that work?
Nick Dunkerley (00:47):
Yeah, we. It's a good one. Me and my partner, we
now both call ourselvesdirectors
James Cridland (00:54):
Director.
Nick Dunkerley (00:55):
because I don't really fancy. It's an old
fashioned word. I like the worddirector. Something that you can
imagine of a you know, wesomeone who builds trains or
something needs to be buildingstuff. The whole CEO thing, I
don't really take to that. Butif you were to put that C title
on this, I probably be the CEO.
James Cridland (01:15):
Well, there we are for a company called
Hindenburg Systems, which, ofcourse, produces Hindenburg Pro.
Uh, by the way, I write when I'mflying somewhere and they ask me
for my job title, then I don'twrite editor because that looks
as if I'm a journalist and Iwrite about things. So I just
write Director as well. Directorseems to work for everything so
(01:36):
far as I'm concerned. Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (01:37):
It's a lovely title.
James Cridland (01:39):
So let's start by asking you, Nick, what is
Hindenburg pro?
Nick Dunkerley (01:44):
Well, basically Hindenburg Pro is another DAW
digital audio workstation.
James Cridland (01:49):
What do you mean by DAW?
Nick Dunkerley (01:51):
I just said a digital audio workstation. So
it's a it's a piece of softwarewhere you can edit your audio,
you can record your voices, youcan add your interviews, add
music, ambience, and you can mixthem all together and until you
have a final piece. that's whatit is in essence,
James Cridland (02:13):
So it's it's and I know that you hate this, but
it's similar to something likeProTools or
Nick Dunkerley (02:18):
it.
James Cridland (02:18):
Audacity or Reaper or those sorts of tools.
And we might we will come backto why you don't necessarily
like that too much. But that'sbut that's the sort of thing
Hindenburg Pro You make a pieceof software for audio books as
well. But Hindenburg pro cameout with Hindenburg Pro 2, about
(02:39):
a year ago now. So what's newabout Hindenburg Pro, 2? If
anybody doesn't know?
Nick Dunkerley (02:46):
Well, very briefly, we might say that
Hindenburg one had been on themarket for nearly 15 years and
has been servicing radiojournalists and podcasters all
over the world. And we thoughtit was time to make an update.
We hadn't made an update. Well,we had obviously made changes,
(03:07):
but we hadn't charged for anupgrade in all those years. So
that's one thing that's new forus. And the other thing was,
well, if we're going to do that,we definitely want to put some
new features in there that, say,users have been looking for. So
we spent a huge amount of timeredoing the whole UI, which is
(03:29):
how it looks and feels. But alsoadding new features to it. So we
have transcription in there.
We've expanded the clipboard,which turned out to be a huge
success, so we had to make aneven better one. And we've also
added other stuff like you canimport video. Yeah, so it's,
it's been interesting and a hugeamount of work, but we're really
(03:50):
proud of what we ended up with.
James Cridland (03:53):
And the transcript stuff you are doing,
as some other companies aredoing, editing by transcripts as
well as you can highlight aparagraph or something, press
the delete button and it goesaway from the audio as well,
right?
Nick Dunkerley (04:06):
Yes, it works that way. I wouldn't necessarily
recommend that you do it notjust in ours, just in general. A
But that's just because I'm aradio person. I think
James Cridland (04:18):
Yes.
Nick Dunkerley (04:18):
having a script there is an amazing feature for
for navigating your material,getting a better overview of
your story for searching forkeywords and for doing rough
edits. It's amazing, really isit just speeds up your process.
Which is what Hindenburg is allabout at the end of the day, is
(04:41):
you once week high endproductions. But many of our
users are professionals, so theyare also at a tight deadline. So
is finding that sweet balancebetween speed and quality. And
the transcription really helpsspeed up things.
James Cridland (04:58):
Yeah, I mean, I use it to edit this very show
every single week. And thePodnews Daily, of course, the
Podnews weekly review. Iliterally I go through, I get it
to produce a transcripts andthen I go through and edit out
everything that Sam says. That'sbasically my plan. Now I see
some of these stories thatdidn't really work so well and
(05:20):
try desperately to fit it into90 minutes or so, and it is
super useful just for thatinitial work. And then you go in
and you edit it properly. likeyou, I'm an old fashioned radio
person and I rather enjoy, youknow, doing a proper job of the
audio editing. But it's a greatfirst start to go. Actually, I
(05:43):
want this question and thisanswer up here rather than down
there, and then I will go in andmake sure that all of that works
flawlessly. Now, how about Pro 2has been going for, as I say,
for a year as a user every day.
I've seen some impressivechanges in it. All of a sudden,
in the middle of this year, itbecame far faster to use the
transcription tool and variousother things. What sort of it
(06:07):
has it been? Basically making itas flawless as you possibly can
over the last year, or have youadded a bunch of new features
that we've not actually spottedover the last year as well?
Nick Dunkerley (06:22):
No, I think absolutely. We try to tweak it.
It's. A whole ethos when itcomes to features is we don't
just want to add features, justjust to add features. We really
spend a long time thinking aboutthe ones that we put in there
and how we put them in there.
Because if we we've just addednew features every time someone
(06:42):
asks us for a feature, it wouldprobably well be bloated for one
thing. But also the featureswouldn't necessarily make sense
for most people. But make anexample going back, you remember
maybe the magic levels.
James Cridland (06:59):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (07:00):
That came based on sound designers and sound
engineers who are saying, well,we have problems with bleed and
could you please adds sidechained gate. Now, there's
probably like 80% of all usershave no idea what I just said.
Any of it makes any sensewhatsoever. So our approach is,
(07:25):
well, we understand what theproblem is, but this is not the
solution. So then we try to findanother way of approaching the
same problem, then came up withmagic levels, which basically
just removes bleed. You justhighlight everything pressure,
magic levels and usually goesaway and again, that we tweak
that feature, you through time,but we don't change the feature,
(07:48):
just add new ones. And it's thesame thing that we do with other
things. We keep just improvingit because most of the time you
don't new features, you justneed what you have to be stable
and work and work quickly.
James Cridland (08:00):
Yeah. And I think, you know, the history of
Hindenburg is I mean, it used tobe called Hindenburg journalist
a while back. And it was really,you know, as I've been
explaining it to people,
Nick Dunkerley (08:12):
Yeah.
James Cridland (08:12):
it's there as a tool for journalists to make
great sounding audio readerreally quickly so that they can
get it onto the radio really,really fast. I don't know
whether that's entirely,entirely the way that you would
normally talk it out, but thatcertainly seems to me to be the
real value of a tool likeHindenburg Pro in that it is
(08:35):
very, very capable and also doesits job very, very quickly as
well.
Nick Dunkerley (08:40):
And that is exactly right. And that is
actually the value. Because if,as you know yourself, if you're
working towards a deadline andthis is more than being able to
meet your deadline is morevaluable than anything else.
So there might be tools outthere that have more bells and
whistles. And there definitelyare. But again, for us, that's
(09:04):
on purpose. the point isn't whatyou potentially can make if you
all the time in the world. Ourmission is how much can you make,
how creative can you be within avery restricted time limit? And
that is a completely differentapproach to a product.
James Cridland (09:20):
Yeah. And that's very different to something like
ProTools, which is sitting there,you know, for you to make a make
a pop album on that and you know,and it's very good at that. It's
very good at giving you, youknow, four weeks to make a 30
minute program. But in terms ofthe fast turnarounds that
podcasting is there for, youknow, arguably I would have
(09:44):
thought ProTools and logic andthose sorts of tools are
probably rather more than youreally need. Would that be fair?
Nick Dunkerle (09:52):
That's very fair.
And they were never built forthis kind of production. And if
you ask them, they will probablyagree. I, I would imagine they
said, yeah, sure, you can useProTools or a logic for, for
radio production or podcastproduction. But at the same time,
I'm pretty sure they would say,but it's not what it's built for.
This is built for logic, forinstance, for music production.
(10:13):
No, ProTools is also obviouslyfor music production, but even
more for film production. Andthese are situations where you
have, well, still a deadline,obviously, but maybe a deadline
is in six months, which is adifferent situation than if
you're a day to day radiojournalist and your deadline is
in 3 hours.
James Cridland (10:34):
Well, I mean, I notice on your website that
you've got quite the the who'swho of customers in here. You've
got, uh, Deutsche Welle in here,who I believe we have to call
D.W. these days, WNYC, but alsoRadio Romania. Um, NPR, Stanford
University, the Sorbonne, allkinds of really large
(10:59):
organizations using you and, youknow, you. It's a very different,
um, you know, it's a verydifferent client list, I would
expect, than, you know, manypeople who are using, you know,
the scripts and the, and thepodcasts of this world.
Nick Dunkerley (11:17):
Yes, it is.
Hindenburg has always beendesigned for for people who
don't have an engineeringbackground. That means if you
are just starting out in youraudio storytelling career, you
can start with the Hindenburg,if you like. you shouldn't be
intimidated by the professionalsusing it. it's a fairly
(11:37):
straightforward to jump into,but you might not necessarily
understand all the benefits ofit from the beginning, but later
on you will.
James Cridland (11:48):
Yeah. And I think that that is actually
exactly what I learned. So I wasusing audacity and fighting
audacity every day. AndHindenburg was a real pain for
about the first week. And afterthe first week it was, Oh, no, I
understand this now I've gotthere. I mean, even everything
from the wavefile looks toeverything else. Nick, the
(12:10):
reason why you're on is we got aboost the other week from Georg
Dahm or George Dahm, as I may beincorrectly calling him. And
anyway, he says, Could you getthe Hindenburg guys onto the
podcast? I've got one of them.
It would be great to hear howthings have been going since the
switch to a subscription model.
It says Here Now. Hindenburg Proalways had a subscription model,
(12:32):
I think, as well as a buy outmodel. So you can buy the
software if you like, or you canjust essentially rent it every
single month. That's notparticularly new, is it?
Nick Dunkerley (12:42):
Well, to be honest, he's right. It is fairly
new. We've had it for some yearsnow, and before that it was only
about you can just purchase it.
It is it is a perpetual license,so to speak. But then we
introduce subscription, but westill have both. You can choose.
So we've just added the option.
(13:03):
But because again, it'd a veryniche products, it also has a
fairly high price and and somepeople just found that price a
bit too steep and were askingwell could you do a subscription
model instead. And so we did
James Cridland (13:19):
Yeah. and so essentially you can buy the
software forever. And I thinkthe only costs going on are the
transcription, if you wish touse that, because that says, uh,
a service that you buy in. Butaccepting that I think that is,
that is the only,
Nick Dunkerley (13:34):
yes.
James Cridland (13:35):
the only cost of actually running the thing. Or
you can use it as a subscription,you know, as you go, um, as you
go through it. Georg also asks,How are you competing with all
the transcript based editors outthere? I mean, clearly, since
Hindenburg's started there hasbeen quite a growth in things
(13:57):
like descriptors e.g. byheadliner podcasts, all a bunch
of these other tools. I thinkAdobe has just released one as
well, which is supposed to be areally easy, simple,
straightforward way of editing apodcast. Um, and do you, do you
see yourselves as being incompetition with those tools or
(14:20):
where do you sort of fit?
Nick Dunkerley (14:23):
the way that we approach our products and how we
think of our core audience. Theyare professional audio
storytellers and the way thatthey use transcription. is for
for searching and doing roughedits. So it's a slightly
different approach to if you'reusing transcription and in the
(14:45):
sense that if you've never triedto do audio before using
transcription is the same asediting in the word documents.
That's that's a very differentapproach to saying that having
our approach is havingtranscription will just speed up
your professional work on a dayto day basis, So all in
(15:05):
incomplete as well. Yes, but thecrossover is not that deliberate
from my point of view, with thecrossover, when it comes to to
the audience, we're notnecessarily seeking the
beginners. We would love to havethem aboard. That's not the
point. But that's notnecessarily our target audience.
(15:25):
It very much seems that when itcomes to scripts in Adobe, their
approach is we want to targetvery specifically the first time
podcasters.
James Cridland (15:37):
Yeah. And I think from that point of view,
you are you are very differentaren't you. You are you are
focusing. I mean, you know,people will get the most out of
you if they are a seriouspodcaster, if they are producing
audio in a serious way andprobably producing a large
volume of audio as well incomparison to some of these new,
(15:58):
you know, if you're a brand new,um, a brand new person to
podcasting, then, you know, Imean, frankly, you know, they
may not be quite as much of aneed for this sort of of, of a
tool. One of the things that Ilike about Hindenburg is being
able to hit that publish buttonand to publish in whatever weird
and wonderful format I need intoa particular place on my
(16:22):
computer or a particular placeon the cloud or even, you know,
upload it up to post sponsor orwhoever it might be. You know,
that that is super, super useful.
Nick Dunkerley (16:35):
It's a very it's a very specific need, isn't it?
You have to be at a certainpoint in your career to
appreciate that.
James Cridland (16:43):
It is.
Nick Dunkerley (16:45):
So if a were to kind of think of it, I would say
that yes, should start outwithin. But but it actually
first really makes sense whenyou start producing, as you were
saying regularly, when you'vegotten to like your 20th episode
and you start feeling the painof doing a a weekly or monthly
(17:05):
whatever podcast you're doing,and then it becomes a job. This
is where you start finding allthe small benefits and you say,
Oh, okay, now I understand whythe clipboard is there. Now I
understand why the publishedtools. They now understand what
the voice produce profile isthere. But up until that point I
can try to explain it to youuntil, you know, the cows come
(17:29):
in. It's not going to make anysense if you haven't felt that
pain yet.
James Cridlan (17:33):
Yeah. No, indeed.
Indeed. And it and it's probablyalso worth just mentioning,
given that given that it turnsout that you are that you're on
a boat at the moment speaking tous, it's probably worthwhile
mentioning the Hindenburg probeitself is a very small computer
program. It doesn't take much todownload, and everything that
you do is offline. Even thetranscription is offline, which
(17:56):
is a
Nick Dunkerley (17:58):
Yes.
James Cridland (17:58):
super useful thing. I'll tell you for
somebody that quite often has toedit podcasts and things on
aeroplanes and everythingelsewhere, the internet is awful
or non-existent. So that's auseful thing to.
Nick Dunkerley (18:11):
It is not only useful, actually, is it? For us,
it was crucial. Well, one thingis useful on the plane. I get
that the mobility thing. Andalso if you're in the middle of
a war zone or something is quiteuseful to be able to do that.
But the most important thing wassecurity. At the moment when
we're uploading something fortranscription, we don't really
(18:34):
have any idea who's listening inon that audio.
James Cridland (18:39):
Hmm.
Nick Dunkerley (18:39):
And there has already been cases where, you
know, and that was a veryunfortunate case where it was
journalists was, was, was doingan interview with a minority
group in China and suddenly washad to knock on the door from
the Chinese government. And sowhen it comes to, again, the
professionals, I had a longerchat with an editor from The New
(19:03):
York Times about this and saidthey would never lie, can never
use online transcription toolswhen it comes to sensitive
material,
James Cridland (19:14):
Mm hmm. Because you never know who's going to
hear that and who's going
Nick Dunkerley (19:17):
you
James Cridland (19:17):
to
Nick Dunkerley (19:17):
know.
James Cridlan (19:18):
use that as a, I, you know,
training and all of that kind ofstuff. Keeping something
Nick Dunkerley (19:26):
Yeah.
James Cridland (19:26):
on
Nick Dunkerley (19:26):
There's.
James Cridland (19:26):
your own.
Nick Dunkerley (19:26):
There's that on top of
James Cridland (19:27):
Massively
Nick Dunkerley (19:27):
it.
James Cridland (19:27):
important.
Nick Dunkerley (19:27):
Yes.
James Cridland (19:28):
Yeah. Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (19:29):
So. So if you do have sensitive material and
again, this might not make senseif you're making a comedy
podcast, you know, why would it?
But for for some people andagain, we do realize some of the
things that we have in therethat we find important for a
very niche audience, but someonehas to serve that audience. And
(19:49):
to be honest, we love what we do.
So, you know, if no one else isgoing to go for it, we will.
James Cridland (19:57):
No, indeed, indeed. And worth while also
mentioning that it supportsthings like, you know,
transcripts in a sort of format.
So it works fine with podcasting2.0 and all of that and does a
and does a fine job, you know,in terms of all that stuff and
will even sort out your LUFSlevels as well. More details on
that on the Podnews website. Sowhat's coming up for Hindenburg?
(20:18):
You've had a change at the toprecently. What
Nick Dunkerley (20:26):
Yeah.
James Cridland (20:27):
sort of are there any changes to the way
that the company will work inthe future and any new products
that your currently working on?
Nick Dunkerley (20:38):
Yes.
James Cridland (20:41):
Good. Well,
Nick Dunkerley (20:44):
This wraps up this.
James Cridland (20:46):
any clues as to what might be.
Nick Dunkerley (20:49):
I just have to be careful what I say. But. But
yes, as you might be able tohear from what we've already
talked about and our directionnow is very much on the
professional market. And and
James Cridland (21:05):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (21:06):
again, we're not trying to alienate anyone. We're
not going to make it so that youcan't use it is just we want to
be able to expand it. Okay. Letme put it in the broad sense. If
you are working professionallywith with storytelling. And that
could be as a podcaster, butthat might also be you have to
(21:30):
do some side work as a voiceoverartist. You might be narrating
audiobooks, that kind of thing,where we're going looking into
the future and if somewhatshorter term is that we want to
be able to have more tools inthere so that you as a
(21:51):
professional can do all youryour different products in one
tool. I hope that makes sense.
James Cridland (21:57):
Yeah. No, that does that does make a bit of
sense. That's that's relativelycryptic, but that does make.
Nick Dunkerley (22:05):
Well. I can't say too much about the specific
features, but is is just to saythat they it's difficult enough
as it is
James Cridland (22:13):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (22:14):
and to to try to you know, get food on the table
as a voiceover artist or apodcaster. So we're just
thinking, okay, what can we doagain to make your work as
seamless and as fun, to behonest as possible, but at the
same time, make sure that you'reso effective that you can
(22:35):
actually earn money. Becausemany of the things that we do,
we do spend so much money. If Icome with an example, I know
we're not necessarily talkingabout audiobooks here, but when
it comes to people who narratingaudiobooks and they can spend a
lot of time just on the readingof the book, but then they take
(22:56):
can take a large percentage oftheir income and give that to an
audio editor for them to then goin and set levels. And make sure
that all the the noise levelsare set correctly and save money
and not get a lot of money inthe first place. And to just to
do their day to day work. Sosome of the things we already
(23:16):
have that in that way to makethat easier, but we're going to
be migrating some of those ideasback to in by pro. So you as a
professional again can just haveone tool that you can use for
most of your jobs
James Cridland (23:28):
And everybody is putting into their tools my
email. Software updated todaywith Apple intelligence in it.
What's your stance on AI? Howwill you be using A.I. as you
move forward?
Nick Dunkerley (23:45):
Ah, it's a good one. To be honest, we've been
using a lie before anyone evenhad an idea what I was. Because
in a sense, I is just takingsomeone else's knowledge, being
knowledge and applying it to asa tool to what you want to do.
So you could argue that a voiceprofile, for instance, that's a
(24:06):
lie, but it's just based on avery narrow group of people,
which was us at the office, soto speak. But the the ideas
around a machine learning, we'regoing to be using them also.
Looking forward, we're going tobe making more voice restoration
tools. I know we've promisedvoice restoration tools for a
(24:29):
long time, but it turned out tobe slightly more tricky than we
had hoped. But we are gettingthere and so we definitely will
be using it for that.
James Cridland (24:38):
Yeah.
Interesting. And you. You. Whenwe met in, uh, Denmark a few
weeks or so ago, you were. Youdangled the phrase proof of work
at me, but you never quiteexplained what it meant.
Nick Dunkerley (24:54):
No, the thing about proof of work is it is
basically just an idea that Ihad because I was been on a
panel. I was on a panel for a anAmerican organization for
journalists. And
James Cridland (25:10):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (25:12):
the questions that we get all the time is and
this is also on this panel, whatabout A.I.? What kind of tools
will be there to make my lifeeasier? And this is a
reoccurring theme. How can Imake my life easier? And I kind
of had to go the other way andsay, we have to be careful with
(25:34):
this because and if we just keepgoing down this path, we might
so might end up making ourselvesredundant. If if what you're
doing right now is mediocre.
Because to be honest, anyonewho's using A.I. tools for their
end products. They will be ableto produce the quality of
(25:56):
product that they can produce.
And anyone who's professionalwill know that it's it's okay,
but it's not a professionalproduct. It's a mediocre product.
And the issue with that is ifthat is kind of the standard
we're setting, that would alsomean that why would we need you?
(26:17):
And this is what I was saying toa bunch of journalists, Why
would we need you if we canreplace you with a in the first
place? So the whole point isthat A.I. is great as a tool,
but you have to make sure thatyou know what you're doing. You
need to be good enough at yourjob to be able to filter out. Is
(26:41):
this good? Is this usable? Sothere is that issue when it
comes to AIG. We can't just layback and depend on it to solve
our problems. If we don't havethe skill sets to actually
understand what quality is. Thenwe have a problem. And then
there's another problem goingback to the proof of work, which
(27:01):
is authenticity. Which also is atheme at the moments. How do you
know that something is actuallynot just being produced by some
bots? And we've all heard theexamples out there at the
moments for, for instance,Google Notes. It's quite amazing
what it can do. And obviouslythat's just going to be better
looking forward.
James Cridland (27:21):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (27:22):
So when it comes to how do we prove that there's
actually a person to personcommunication going on like the
one we have at the moment and,and I think at least that we can
steal ideas from the blockchain.
And one of them is a proof ofwork, which is basically the way
that Bitcoin works. And proof ofwork is, in a sense, a way of
(27:46):
peacocking, if that makes sense.
The peacock has a huge tail. Itdoesn't have to have a huge tail
does make any sense. The onlything that makes it slightly
more vulnerable to being killed.
But the reason it has it is toprove that it can survive. And
it's a bit the same thing whenit comes to proof of work, when
(28:07):
it comes to the blockchain.
Blockchain uses a huge amount ofenergy just to prove
James Cridland (28:15):
Yeah.
Nick Dunkerley (28:15):
a is actually solving what would be an
unnecessarilycomplicated arithmetic. But the
point of it isn't to solve thearithmetic. The point is to use
that amount of energy. That'sthe whole point of it. Because
if you're using that amounts ofenergy, then someone else has to
put the same amounts of energyinto it to try to copy it. And
(28:38):
it doesn't make any sensebecause you're using, you know,
way too many resources on it. Soit doesn't make any sense to try
to copy it. And it's kind ofwhat I was trying to convey here
when it comes to our jobs. If wewant to stand out as being our
jobs is something special,something unique and something
(29:00):
that the the end user can hearthat there's a person they're
trying to communicate somethingof value. We need to apply more
effort. We need to go the otherway. We can't just say that I do
the job for us. We need to applywhat we're really good at and
then use A.I. as tools to helpus down that road.
James Cridland (29:24):
Yeah, that's very, very well. Well said thing.
And I know that Sam keeps ontalking about assisted
intelligence rather thanartificial intelligence.
Nick Dunkerley (29:34):
He's a clever man.
James Cridland (29:35):
He is a clever man. Don't go telling him that
face to face.
Nick Dunkerley (29:38):
No. God, no.
James Cridland (29:39):
Now, that would be a bad plan. It's been a great
pleasure having a chat with you,Nick. This isn't a painful thing,
but I would point out hindenburg.
com/podnews. You can actually gothere and get a three month
trial and a 30% money off onyour first year of Hindenburg
Pro. I only mention this becauseHindenburg very kindly give me a
(29:59):
year free use of your tool. Andso, therefore, you know, I think
that would be a good plan. Butdo go and have a play with it.
It is most definitely the toolfor the serious podcaster that
just wants to spend less timemixing and more time being more
creative. That would be a goodplan. Hindenburg dot com Like
(30:21):
the disaster slash pod news.
Nick, it's been a great pleasure.
Thank you so much for your time.
Nick Dunkerley (30:29):
It has been.
James, I thank you very much.
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