October 18, 2024 • 36 mins
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This podcast episode features Sam Sethi interviewing Oscar Merry, co-founder of Fountain, a podcasting 2.0 app. Oscar discusses the new features in Fountain version 1.1.5, including a major overhaul of the content library for better performance, the ability to pay creators using Lightning Network invoices, and the addition of artist pages for music podcasts. He also talks about Fountain's plans to support Nostr Wallet Connect, which would allow users to connect their main Lightning wallet to Fountain.
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Episode Transcript
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Sam Sethi (00:12):
Hello and welcome back to Pod News Weekly. I'm
joined by a very good friend ofthe show. His name's Oscar Merry.
I'll just simply say hello,Oscar.
Oscar Merry (00:20):
Hey, Sam. Great to be back on. Thanks so much for
having me.
Sam Sethi (00:23):
You're very welcome.
Now, Oscar's the co founder ofFountain, which is one of the
podcasting 2.0 apps leading thecharge. And you've got a new
release out. Oscar. So come on,tell me what's in this new
release.
Oscar Merry (00:36):
Yeah, thanks, Sam.
So we just released Fountain1.1.5. There's a massive amount
of really cool updates in thisnew version building on the 1.1
release which came out lastmonth. So I'll go through it
really quickly and then wouldlove to just get into some of
the more, you know, the deeperreasons on why we're building
what we're building in Fountain1.1.5, we have a completely new
(01:00):
content library architecture andthis essentially makes the app
way more performant, especiallyfor online playback. So it took
a lot of hard work to make thischange that we've removed over
40,000 lines of code in the app.
But yeah, now Fountain is waymore performant, especially in
(01:20):
an offline playback setting.
We've also added the ability topay any lightning invoice from
your wallet in the app. What'sreally cool about this is it
demonstrates theinteroperability of the
Lightning Network and thepayments within podcasting 2.0.
So you can imagine paying for acoffee with the earnings from
your podcast, which I think isreally cool. And it just shows
(01:44):
how an interoperable paymentsystem like lightning can, I
think, be the future ofmonetization within podcasting.
The final thing that we've addedin 115 is music artist pages. So
I think everyone who listens topop news regularly will be aware
of the new music podcastingfeatures that are starting to be
(02:08):
built out thanks to theintroduction of the medium tag.
So we've supported musicpodcasts for a long time and
fountain so you can listen tothe show, you can see the
tracklist and you can actuallyclick through to the track and
save that to your library.
That's really great, but we'remissing a few things in terms of
(02:28):
making Fountain a really greatmusic listening experience. So
with the addition of artistpages now, wherever you discover
that music in Fountain, you canclick through to the artist page
and you can see all of thetracks for that artist and you
can see all of the socialactivity and payments related to
that artist as well, which isreally, really cool because
(02:49):
finding one track on a musicpodcast and then viewing the
whole collection is somethingthat's really important. So yeah,
there's a lot in 115, but we'rereally excited about it.
Sam Sethi (03:00):
Called lots and lots of hard Work. As someone who
builds an app as well, I knowthat takes a lot of time, energy
and effort, so congratulationson that. Now let's unpack some
of that. So let's start off withthe offline capability and the
core library stuff you did. Whydid you feel you needed to make
that change? And is thatuniversal across both Android
(03:23):
and iOS?
Oscar Merry (03:25):
Yeah. So this is universal to iOS and Android and
essentially this comes from ourdesire to make Fountain a multi
content medium app. We wantpeople to be able to listen to
their favorite podcasts, butalso listen to the new music
(03:45):
that they're discovering onpodcast. Listen to live streams,
which we're seeing a lot of newactivity on. So we want Fountain
to enable listening to anycontent type. And over time, as
we've added these new contenttypes, it's kind of building one
thing on top of the other,whereas this new system is much
more performant in terms of theorganization of your library
(04:08):
when you have all of thosedifferent content types. So
that's the main reason behind it.
Sam Sethi (04:12):
Can you, when you're offline, also still boosting
stream? Well, I think when I goback online.
Oscar Merry (04:19):
Not right now, no.
The payments are not cachedoffline, so you have to be
online in order to stream sites.
Sam Sethi (04:26):
Okay. Moving on to Bolt 11 now, this has been a big
change from what I read, boththe ability, obviously, as you
said, to fundamentally buy me acoffee using your own stats, not
just the link to buy me a coffee,but it's the withdrawal element
as well that you've added. Tellme more about that.
Oscar Merry (04:45):
Yes. So, you know, Bitcoin and lightning is gaining
adoption. You know, with everymonth that goes by, there's more
and more traditional financialcompanies that are adopting
Bitcoin and lightning. Forexample, we had new Bank, which
is a huge financial entity. ADDsupport for the Lightning
Network recently, and Fountainhas an integrated lightning
(05:09):
wallet. So when you sign up, youcreate a wallet and you have
access to all the paymentcapabilities. But for a while
the withdrawal mechanism wasusing something called Elon. You
all withdraw, which is quite aniche thing that not all of the
other payment apps support. Sowe wanted to make it easier for
(05:30):
podcasters and now musicians towithdraw the stats that they
earn from their audience inFountain and supporting the
Bolt's 11 Lightning Invoicespecification was the easiest
way to do that. So now you canreally easily withdraw to any
other Bitcoin Lightning app orany banking app that supports
(05:53):
lightning, and there'll be moreand more of them that come
online. So it's just a qualityof life improvement that makes
it really easy for creators towithdraw the money that they
earn on Fountain to whatevertheir preferred kind of banking
app of choice is. And a lot ofthese other apps will support
splitting the payments into yourlocal currency and Bitcoin. So
(06:15):
you could choose to have all ofthe sites that you earn go to
your local currency, or youcould choose to maybe split 5050
or whatever is up to you. Soit's a quality of life
improvement for the creator, butit's also very cool. Next time I
want to pay for coffee, I canjust use my podcast app, which I
(06:35):
think is quite cool, an it showsthe future of interoperable
micropayments between all ofthese different apps.
Sam Sethi (06:42):
I want the video next time you go into a coffee shop,
I want you to post the video ofyou using Fountain to pay for
that coffee. Two or threequestions. And around that one
is, is there a minimumwithdrawal limit that you've set
or is it just take what you wantout when you want out?
Oscar Merry (06:58):
Yeah. So we do have some limits with the wallet
which are available on ourFacebook page, so you can go and
check them out.
Sam Sethi (07:05):
Okay. And one of the questions I saw because I was
reading on X, your announcementof it, and somebody in there
went, Oh, when are you going toput NWC? And I'm like, Well,
when but maybe you are. So NWCstands for not a Wallet Connect.
It's a feature of the all bignetwork, which is a different
network from the one you use,which is apathy. So my thoughts
(07:29):
are, no, you're not going toimplement NWC, but maybe I'm
totally wrong.
Oscar Merry (07:34):
Yeah. So we do actually have plans to support
Nostra Wallet Connect and I'llkind of explain the reasoning
behind this. So I think we willsee over the next few years many,
many more apps and services andplatforms adopting the Lightning
Network. And ultimately itdoesn't really make sense for
(07:55):
you as a user to have a balanceacross all of these different
apps and services that you use.Youmight have a balance on your
main roster client. You mighthave a balance in your podcast
app, a balance in your livestreaming app, a balance, and
you know, the list goes on thatdoesn't really make that much
sense. And what Napster WalletConnect allows you to do is have
(08:17):
one balance in your mainlightning wallet and connect
that to all of the differentapps you use and share the
balance and set limits. So Ithink it makes a lot of sense.
So we do plan to offer supportfor Nostra Wallet Connect. I'm
hoping we can get that in thisyear. Obviously, the one
downside to it is it does add alittle bit more friction in the
(08:39):
onboarding because as a brandnew user, a fountain, you don't
just have to download forms andand press the create wallet
button. You need to go andfigure out, okay, what's not the
wallet connect, How do I find mymain wallet? Who do I choose? So
we're definitely keeping theembedded fountain wallet because
that's the easiest way forpeople to get started, but not a
(09:00):
wallet. Connect is something forthose more advanced users that
are regularly using lightningacross all of these different
apps and services, it makes iteasier for them.
Sam Sethi (09:10):
I agree. I think it has to be an advanced feature. I
think any newbie trying tounderstand that would just, I
think, blow their minds. Thelast one is you're very well up
on this more than I am probably.
Bulk Well, where is that withinthe lexicon of timeline?
Oscar Merry (09:25):
Yeah. So from what I can see, Boat 12 is moving
along very nicely. There's morelightning wallets that are
supporting it already. I thinkin terms of podcasting 2.0 and
how we can look to adopt Boat 12,there's been a lot of discussion
in the podcast index GitHubdiscussions around how we change
(09:46):
the value block, which is thething that podcast use in that
RSS feed to tell apps like foundand where to send the money.
Essentially, we need to changethe way the value block works to
have an options file that allowspodcasters to say, okay, I
accept keys and I set both 11, Iaccept boat 12 and that way we
(10:08):
don't need to keep changing theRSS feeds Each time the
lightning protocol changes, wecan just have the podcast app
update the options file whichwill be generated for them by
whatever wallet service they use,whether that's fountain, whether
that's Audi, whether that'sstrike cash app essentially. So
yeah, I think it's on the wayand getting that options file
(10:29):
into the value box back is thefirst step.
Sam Sethi (10:32):
I'll leave you to do that work be great I'll just
copy it now what is differentwith Bolt 12?
Oscar Merry (10:38):
Oscar Yeah. So the key difference between Bolt 11
and 12 and both of these arejust the specification of how
you make lightning payments.
Bolt 11 requires generating aninvoice for every single payment,
and that adds friction for theuser because every time you want
to send a boost or you need togo request the new invoice,
(10:58):
whereas Bolt 12 is essentially areusable invoice. So it
optimizes the payment flow quitesignificantly. There's also a
bunch of other technicalbenefits to Bolt 12, which are
probably above my pay grade interms of the Lightning Network.
But the key example for whatwe're doing in terms of
supporting Creative supportingpodcast is a great example I
(11:21):
like to use. As for live stream,so obviously we've seen all the
concerts that have beenhappening and live streamed out
through our into all of thepodcasting 2.0 apps. They've
been amazing and artists likeAinsley Costello have done a
massive amount of money throughthis way more than the
traditional streaming platforms.
(11:42):
One thing we've always wanted todo at these concerts is have QR
codes so that people can just,you know, support in the actual
venue or like, you know, ifthey're walking past, they can
just scan the QR code and pay.
Now that doesn't work with Bolt11 because obviously when you
pay about 11 invoice, it's paidand you need to generate another
(12:04):
one. So Bolt 12 enables you tohave those static QR codes, and
that's really useful for liveevents. So you can imagine
inserting that static QR code onthe livestream video, for
example, so that anyone tuningin can just scan that if they're
watching it on a web platformand they don't actually have
(12:25):
access to the app. So for me,that's the main benefit of Bolt
12 is the static invoice, whichwill make it easier for people
to pay creators.
Sam Sethi (12:36):
Now, one of the things you announced that was
really impressive was the you'vealready paid out 1.6 Bitcoin.
For those who don't know what1.6 Bitcoin would equate to,
that's just over $100,000, whichis really, really cool that
you've seen that go through.
Fountain Tell me more about whatyou're seeing as the flow has
accelerated.
Oscar Merry (12:58):
Yeah, so we see regularly quite high payment
volume being sent from listenersto podcasters and this is
recurring revenue for thepodcast is because people love
supporting their favoritepodcasts. And if you can make it
easy for them and if you canbuild these social elements into
(13:18):
those payments as well, like wedo with Fountain, then you know,
people love to do it andpodcasters love receiving it.
Not only the payment but themessage and also the interaction
that's generated off the back ofthat. So yeah, this is a
credible way for podcasters togenerate an income for their
show. And I would encourage anypodcast that is listening to try
(13:41):
out obviously with newtechnology like the Lightning
Network that comes with, youknow, additional things that you
need to learn and it also comeswith additional friction for
someone that's brand new to this.
You know, what is a lightningwallet? How does it work? But
we've tried to make that assimple as possible in Fountain.
And with every release, it getssimpler, you know, withdrawing
(14:01):
via boats 11 is an example ofthat. And I think that as we
continue to solve the onboardingissues, as more of the
traditional financial servicecompanies adopt lightning, which
they are doing, then, you know,paying lightning invoices and
(14:21):
sending stats from one app toanother and back to your main
banking app. This will justbecome a normal thing. And when
that happens, I think thepayment volume on apps like
Fountain and the otherpodcasting 2.0 apps will really,
really increase. So yeah, Iwould encourage any podcasters
listening to get in now andcheck this out and figure out
(14:43):
how can I do all of the things Ineed to do to increase that
payment volume. The shows thatare regularly successful every
week on Fountain and on asignificant amount are the ones
that do all of the things thatAdam Curry voice talks about.
They get the ask right in theshow. They read the boose, they
reply to the boose in fountainor noster, which is, you know,
(15:04):
happy to talk more about thatrecent change. But yeah, this
thing is working. There isonboarding challenges whether
but I think it's the future andthe fact that you can have these
payments flow between thedifferent apps and also the
comments, the replies flowbetween the different apps. This
is the solution for the podcastindustry because there's no
(15:26):
other payment technology andthere's no other social
interaction technology thatenables this. So yeah, I'm
really excited to see what thenumber is next year, as I'm sure
it will increase a lot more.
Sam Sethi (15:39):
Well, as you mentioned. Oster Let's cover
that then. So for those thatdon't know, let's start off what
is noster and then we'll go tohow have Fountain integrated
with it.
Oscar Merry (15:51):
Yeah. So Noster is a decentralized identity
protocol. And what Napsterallows you to do is have one
social identity on the Internetand bring that with you to all
of the different apps that youuse. You don't only bring your
identity to the different apps,but you also bring your entire
(16:13):
social graph and all of thecontent that you've created. You
know, I won't bother gettinginto the technical details of
how the please.
Sam Sethi (16:22):
Please, though, because I was listening to you
interviewed by Max and the last10 minutes of that, even I
thought, Wow, I have no ideawhat you two are talking about.
It went from DNSSEC to somethingelse and I'm going, Yeah, don't
need to know. But anyway, let'sgo back to the practical cities
of Noster.
Oscar Merry (16:41):
Yeah. So you don't need to worry about any of that
as an individual that wants tobe social on the internet, which
is most of us what Napsterenables you to do is use all of
these different apps andservices with one profile, with
one set of followers, and witheverything tied back together.
(17:01):
So taking a step back to why wewanted to do this with Fountain,
actually the number one featurein Fountain, that podcast is
Love was our activity feed,because when someone sends a
boost to an episode that wouldgo into the activity feed and
not only do the podcasts getpaid, but they generate
(17:23):
discovery for their show forfree because everybody else
would see that boost in the feedand they think, Wow, 50,000 SATs,
This must be a good episode. Letme check it out. And we have
heard time and time again thatlisteners have discovered shows
on Fountain through the activityfeed. So it was a feature that
was working really well. But wehad an issue, which is the
(17:45):
fundamental issue that everynews social app has, which is
how do you bootstrap the socialgraph, How do you get people
following people with similarinterests? And the feature
doesn't work unless you followpeople that you care about. In
terms of that interest. WhatNapster allows us to do is have
people bring their existingfollower growth into fountain,
(18:08):
and then it also allows thoseboos and those episode comments
to leave the Fountain app and goand be discovered in other
places. So these boosts in theseepisode comments can be
discovered on the main roster.
Clients like Primal Timers andAmethyst. They can also be
queried by the other podcastapps pulled into the podcast
apps and used for cross outcomment. So Napster essentially
(18:32):
super powers the social featuresin fountain and makes the
discovery primarily way morepowerful. And since we launched
this feature a month ago, it wasa big change to fountain. And
it's not a trivial thing to ripout your existing social graph
and replace it with a new one.
(18:52):
It was a lot of work, but we'realready seeing this work
incredibly well. So somebody isin the fountain, they're
listening to an episode, theysend a boost because they love
the episode or they just leavean interesting comment that adds
value to the content of theepisode that appears on the
episode page in Fountain LikeNormal, it goes into the
fountain home feed like normal,but it also spreads out onto all
(19:17):
of these other Gnostic clientswhere people can see it, they
can repost it, they can quote it,they can reply to it, tagging
people that they follow, saying,Hey, this was an interesting
comment. So it just massivelyincreases the discovery that the
comments and the boost generatefor podcasters and ultimately
that's what they want. They wantnew people to discover that show.
(19:40):
And I don't think we've everseen anything like this in terms
of a podcast app being able togenerate conversation, but then
continues to happen on a regularsocial app like Twitter or
something like that. So it'sreally cool. There's a lot still
to do to polish the experience.
You know, the other podcasting2.0 apps on board. So you were
(20:00):
using not that I know there'sother ideas, but yeah, I'm a
massive believer in it and Ithink that as more and more apps
join the master network, therewill be even more of a reason to
adopt it and even more discoveryopportunity for podcasters.
Sam Sethi (20:20):
I think Wave Lake of Gold down a very similar road to
you. They supporting the NosterWallet Connect. They're
supporting obviously lightningpayments. They're doing a lot of
similar work it and I can see Ithink they've also joined the
Zebedee network as well They'vemoved away from Get Old Bay so
they're on the Zebedee networkas well so I can see this strong
(20:41):
synergy between the two. I'm,you know, I'm talking of
nostalgia. I think probably ayear ago there was a whole
conversation in the podcastingcommunity about why don't we
support Nostra? It seems like avery, very close cousin to what
we're doing with lightningpayments within the post, within
(21:02):
the capability. I think you'vetaken the bull by the horns and
gone and done thatimplementation. So there is a
strong link between the two andI can see the value in it where
you publish a boost or somelistening data from fountain out
to noster. Somebody then seesthat because they follow that
podcast, they then have theability to reply, comment or
(21:25):
give a micropayment backend andthen you expose that back inside
all found. And I see that lovelyloop of information discovery
and I think that's really cool.
And I think the challenge thatwe all have is post X and Elon
Musk is which platform is themajority of the market going to
(21:45):
go? Is it blue sky, is it goingto be Mastodon, Is it going to
be Noster? Is it going to beanother right threads being one?
And I think that's the onechallenge that we all have to do.
You and I had lunch together andwe talked about it in more
detail, but fundamentally myplatform through funds has gone
down the activity bulb road. Yougo down the Noster road and you
(22:07):
know, there are pros and consand I think the activity pop
stuff has some pros, but it hasa lot of cons as well to it as
in it doesn't have lightningpayments, it doesn't have that
loopback feature that you builtinto noster, but it does have a
larger adoption curve ofindividual users today. And so
(22:27):
it's where do you go and how doyou do it? And can you talk to
me about what we were talkingabout, which was how you and I
might be able to still use CrossARP comments. Even though we've
gone down separate protocols,we're still both doing the same
thing, which is social discoveryof podcasting apps through
boosts and comments and stuff.
(22:50):
But one nostrum once wasactivity pop, but that doesn't
preclude both of us. And Mitch apod verse and Jason and I
podcast guru and othersconnecting back all the comments
and tell me how you think that.
Oscar Merry (23:04):
Mike Yeah, that's a really great point. Sam, Because
Noster is an open protocol andbecause activity path is an open
protocol, these things can worktogether and they can be bridged
together. And in fact theyalready operate together through
services like ditto, which is areally cool activity pub server
(23:24):
with Noster integrated. Sothere's no real issue there. My
personal belief is that Noster,in terms of its capabilities and
potential, is just way morepowerful than activity. Bob
However, we can bridge back toActivity pub and we can display
(23:44):
activity pub posts in Fountainas part of the nostre content
that we already have. So I'm notconcerned about that at all. The
bridging can happen and I'm sureit will as we work out the
details. But I think what nosteroffers, which I don't think I've
really seen in Activity pub, isthe ability to do the kind of
(24:06):
reverse connection, and that's abit of a vague term. So I
explain it. I talked about howwhen you send a boost on
fountain or leave a comment onan episode, it gets broadcast
out to the rest of the Nosternetwork and discovery and
conversation can happen on thoseother Gnostic lines. You can do
that with Activity Pub as well.
But what I haven't seen a way todo on Activity Pub is the
(24:32):
reverse, where Fountain can pullin activity from the Noster
network and show that in theFountain app. So I'll give you a
great example. And honestly webuilt this and when I first
experienced it in the app, I wasactually amazed by it, which is
because we can query all thenoster relays because their data
(24:56):
is just open and out there. Wecan actually go and look for
podcast activity that exists onthe Noster network and show that
to you in Fountain, even if ithas nothing to do with Fountain
or even podcasting 2.0. So whatwe actually do in the home feed
is we look for anybody withinyour follower network that is
(25:16):
talking about podcasts, and wedo this just by some simple link
matching on the popular podcastthing, apps like Apple Podcasts.
But an example that I saw theother day was there was someone
I follow on Noster and he sharedan episode via an Apple podcast
episode link. And what we wereable to do, because we can query
(25:38):
the entire Noster network andfind posts like this was
detected, It was an ApplePodcasts episode link, reverse
engineer, the show and episodedetails. And then when we
display that post in thefountain, hopefully not only do
we show the Apple Podcasts URLjust as a hyperlink, but we can
show the content card inFountain. And I was able to just
(26:00):
see that and add the episode tomy queue because I thought it
looked interesting. So that kindof like reverse querying where
any developer is able to go outto the full must the network and
find any content they want anduse it in their app. I haven't
seen a way that you can do thatwith activity and that's like
one of the reasons, along withthe fact that it's got lightning
(26:22):
integrated, that I think noster,although you're right, the user
base currently is a lot smallerthan activity. I think it has
more potential for growth.
Sam Sethi (26:32):
And I don't disagree with you. I think the potential
for growth, given the integratedlightning payments is really
exciting. To answer yourquestion around the activity pop
stuff, the activity popstructure is a name box out box
metaphor, a bit like your email.
And so what we're doing istaking what's in your outbox. So
your activity on True funds, forexample, is your outbox. So I
(26:55):
listened to OSC on this show for10 minutes and that's published
out. And anyone who follows myaccount will see that in their
activity pipeline. What you'vegot is the metaphor which
doesn't exist right now, as inno one's really belt. It is us
doing what you're doing, whichis to find the counts that we
want to follow and then bringany podcast related content into
(27:19):
an inbox inside true funds tothen expose it. That's a much
longer play that we're not intoyet, but you're doing it, which
is very cool. And I think theemail outbox metaphors, how
active people work. And itsounds pretty much what Noster
has as well. You're publishingout content and then you're
bringing in content from thenoster relays. And I think
(27:42):
that's going to be a naturalevolution for the way that it
goes. As I said, I think you'reright. Noster has got the
micropayments, which is an extrabit on top, and I don't think
there's any conversation I'veseen anywhere within the
activity pub community about it,you know, Ghost for example, or
(28:02):
Flipboard or Threads or PixelFeed, none of them are talking
about it. They're very much inthe old metaphor, if I can use
that of a payment wall. So pay£1 to access this private area.
And that is not, as you and Iknow, a micropayment that is
just a paywall. So I think thatis a limitation and I think it's
(28:24):
going to be interesting to seehow blue sky goes. I don't think
that will make much difference.
So I guess you've taken the hugeleap that I would take right now,
which is to prove that you thinkNostra is the long term winner
of the protocol integration. Andlook, no one knows. Time will
(28:45):
tell. I think one of the thingsthat I would love to find out is
what are your thoughts, though,on how we cross the chasm to the
mainstream? Because looking atyour user base, you'd probably
say you've got the geek borrowsmore than anything else who are
comfortable in jumping throughthe hoops of understanding what
a wallet is, finding what aninvoice is, how to open an
(29:07):
account, get money into thewallet, then make micropayment,
and then withdraw that at theother end through an invoice
that is very, very geeky. And soI don't expect my wife or anyone
else to be doing that yet. Sohow do we get to that next stage
to increase the overall userbase?
Oscar Merry (29:28):
Great question. And something I think about a lot. I
think that the answer to this isdiscovery and ultimately people
are not going to use your appunless it's ten times better
than Apple Podcasts and offerssomething the Apple Podcast
doesn't offer. And I think thatdiscovery is that thing that we
(29:50):
can offer. And my view is thatnostalgia is the thing that
enables that discovery. Anotherexample I love to think about is
for many years podcasters havebeen told and in my view is the
right advice. Post your episodeson social media. Talk about your
episodes on social media,repurpose part of the episode
(30:12):
content on social media so thatit generates conversation and
people discover you episode andthat works. That is how you grow
your podcast audience on socialmedia. But that is a painful
experience, especially whenyou're using a platform that you
don't have control of thealgorithm because you don't know
what kind of content is going toexist there. And also you're
(30:34):
competing for that user'sattention with the clickbait
rage that exists on the feeds inapps like Twitter. So as a
creator, you're stuck in a spacewhere you're like, I know I need
to promote this on social media,but I don't want to. And also it
just doesn't feel good. I thinkwhat Gnostic can do is it can
(30:55):
provide that same discoverywhich we know works in terms of
growing an audience. But shift,I guess the work or the act of
generating the discovery fromthe creator onto that audience.
And I think if we can buildtools that do that and actually
show that it works, then forpodcasters and creators it will
(31:16):
become a no brainer. So whywould I encourage my audience to
listen on a podcast that thatdoesn't generate me free
discovery and free audiencegrowth? That's what we want to
do with Fountain. I thinkNapster is the solution to
enabling it. And also it's kindof like rising tide lifts all
boats with every other app orservice that joins in. It just
(31:38):
accelerates everything foreverybody. So yeah, I think it's
all about discovery and I thinkthat trying to build podcast
discovery in a single app isincredibly difficult. And we
have this opportunity now withopen social protocols to rethink
(31:59):
how podcast discovery works. Soyeah, I think that it's all
about discovery.
Sam Sethi (32:05):
Yeah, I remember from many years ago because I'm much
older than you, the browser wars,and there was that moment when
the web browser took off and Idon't know what that moment is
going to be for people tounderstand the wallet metaphor,
because I've often said in thepast it's the Internet, that's
(32:26):
the web, it's a browser, it'scalled HTTP, that's a URL. And I
remember people looking at methinking, I was talking Swahili.
And in many ways we've got thatsame problem now. Vocabulary.
It's a wallet. They're calledmicropayments that is SAS.
That's a boost. Therefore, youcan stream this as the Lightning
(32:46):
Network. That's how you sendmoney using it. I mean, when you
talk about it in thatterminology, it does sound geeky
and quite awkward, just as theearly ways that we use talk
about the web and now nobodyactually goes, Oh, what's your
web URL? They go, What's youraddress? And it's a throwaway
(33:08):
comment. It's like no one says,Oh, on your email is an IMAP or
a POP3. You just say, What'syour email address? And I think
if we can get to what's yourwallet address and I'm just
going to send you some money, Ithink that simplicity of
language will be much better forpeople to adopt and all the
hidden underlying. It's on theLightning Network and it's a
(33:29):
bold 12 and it's an invoice andit just disappears. You should
never have to know any of thatlogic.
Oscar Merr (33:36):
And I think as well, it's a great analogy going back
to the early days of theInternet and content creators
back then had a choice. Theywere like, Do I experiment with
this new thing, this newplatform called the Internet?
And the ones that did would haveseen huge, huge benefits for
them. It's the same with thelegacy social apps like Twitter,
(33:59):
The podcasters that were onTwitter early talking about
their podcast massivelybenefited from it. And so you
have a choice as a creator, doyou experiment with what's new,
knowing that there is a riskthat it doesn't go anywhere? But
I think the potential rewardfrom being early to these new
trends is huge because you canfind new audience, you can grow
(34:23):
with the with the protocol asopposed to trying to enter a
space that is so incrediblycrowded and where you're
competing with the absolutetrash clickbait attention
headline content that you see onevery other centralized social
media platform. So I think it'stime for us to escape those
(34:45):
platforms. I think noster is thesolution to all of these
problems. And if you're acontent creator or podcast, to
start experimenting now andbelieve me is incredible. You
send a boost on fountain or youleave a comment on an episode,
someone sees that on some otherrandom app and they send you
money for it. It's a prettyprofound difference in terms of
(35:06):
how social media is going towork on the Internet. So yeah,
check it out and if you have anyquestions, happy to talk more
about this directly with anyonethat's interested.
Sam Sethi (35:15):
Cool. So what address would I send that to? Are you on
x or are you on not A How wouldI find you?
Oscar Merry (35:22):
Yeah. So you can find me on pretty much all the
platforms. I'm on Twitter or Xmonster. You just search for my
name on any gnostic line orsummary or feel free to just
send me an email or fountain.
Sam Seth (35:37):
Oscar, thanks so much.
Congratulations with this launch.
Look forward to the next onespeeches you make.
Oscar Merry (35:43):
Thank you so much.
Say bye.
Hello and welcome back to Pod News Weekly. I'm
joined by a very good friend ofthe show. His name's Oscar Merry.
I'll just simply say hello,Oscar.
Oscar Merry (00:20):
Hey, Sam. Great to be back on. Thanks so much for
having me.
Sam Sethi (00:23):
You're very welcome.
Now, Oscar's the co founder ofFountain, which is one of the
podcasting 2.0 apps leading thecharge. And you've got a new
release out. Oscar. So come on,tell me what's in this new
release.
Oscar Merry (00:36):
Yeah, thanks, Sam.
So we just released Fountain1.1.5. There's a massive amount
of really cool updates in thisnew version building on the 1.1
release which came out lastmonth. So I'll go through it
really quickly and then wouldlove to just get into some of
the more, you know, the deeperreasons on why we're building
what we're building in Fountain1.1.5, we have a completely new
(01:00):
content library architecture andthis essentially makes the app
way more performant, especiallyfor online playback. So it took
a lot of hard work to make thischange that we've removed over
40,000 lines of code in the app.
But yeah, now Fountain is waymore performant, especially in
(01:20):
an offline playback setting.
We've also added the ability topay any lightning invoice from
your wallet in the app. What'sreally cool about this is it
demonstrates theinteroperability of the
Lightning Network and thepayments within podcasting 2.0.
So you can imagine paying for acoffee with the earnings from
your podcast, which I think isreally cool. And it just shows
(01:44):
how an interoperable paymentsystem like lightning can, I
think, be the future ofmonetization within podcasting.
The final thing that we've addedin 115 is music artist pages. So
I think everyone who listens topop news regularly will be aware
of the new music podcastingfeatures that are starting to be
(02:08):
built out thanks to theintroduction of the medium tag.
So we've supported musicpodcasts for a long time and
fountain so you can listen tothe show, you can see the
tracklist and you can actuallyclick through to the track and
save that to your library.
That's really great, but we'remissing a few things in terms of
(02:28):
making Fountain a really greatmusic listening experience. So
with the addition of artistpages now, wherever you discover
that music in Fountain, you canclick through to the artist page
and you can see all of thetracks for that artist and you
can see all of the socialactivity and payments related to
that artist as well, which isreally, really cool because
(02:49):
finding one track on a musicpodcast and then viewing the
whole collection is somethingthat's really important. So yeah,
there's a lot in 115, but we'rereally excited about it.
Sam Sethi (03:00):
Called lots and lots of hard Work. As someone who
builds an app as well, I knowthat takes a lot of time, energy
and effort, so congratulationson that. Now let's unpack some
of that. So let's start off withthe offline capability and the
core library stuff you did. Whydid you feel you needed to make
that change? And is thatuniversal across both Android
(03:23):
and iOS?
Oscar Merry (03:25):
Yeah. So this is universal to iOS and Android and
essentially this comes from ourdesire to make Fountain a multi
content medium app. We wantpeople to be able to listen to
their favorite podcasts, butalso listen to the new music
(03:45):
that they're discovering onpodcast. Listen to live streams,
which we're seeing a lot of newactivity on. So we want Fountain
to enable listening to anycontent type. And over time, as
we've added these new contenttypes, it's kind of building one
thing on top of the other,whereas this new system is much
more performant in terms of theorganization of your library
(04:08):
when you have all of thosedifferent content types. So
that's the main reason behind it.
Sam Sethi (04:12):
Can you, when you're offline, also still boosting
stream? Well, I think when I goback online.
Oscar Merry (04:19):
Not right now, no.
The payments are not cachedoffline, so you have to be
online in order to stream sites.
Sam Sethi (04:26):
Okay. Moving on to Bolt 11 now, this has been a big
change from what I read, boththe ability, obviously, as you
said, to fundamentally buy me acoffee using your own stats, not
just the link to buy me a coffee,but it's the withdrawal element
as well that you've added. Tellme more about that.
Oscar Merry (04:45):
Yes. So, you know, Bitcoin and lightning is gaining
adoption. You know, with everymonth that goes by, there's more
and more traditional financialcompanies that are adopting
Bitcoin and lightning. Forexample, we had new Bank, which
is a huge financial entity. ADDsupport for the Lightning
Network recently, and Fountainhas an integrated lightning
(05:09):
wallet. So when you sign up, youcreate a wallet and you have
access to all the paymentcapabilities. But for a while
the withdrawal mechanism wasusing something called Elon. You
all withdraw, which is quite aniche thing that not all of the
other payment apps support. Sowe wanted to make it easier for
(05:30):
podcasters and now musicians towithdraw the stats that they
earn from their audience inFountain and supporting the
Bolt's 11 Lightning Invoicespecification was the easiest
way to do that. So now you canreally easily withdraw to any
other Bitcoin Lightning app orany banking app that supports
(05:53):
lightning, and there'll be moreand more of them that come
online. So it's just a qualityof life improvement that makes
it really easy for creators towithdraw the money that they
earn on Fountain to whatevertheir preferred kind of banking
app of choice is. And a lot ofthese other apps will support
splitting the payments into yourlocal currency and Bitcoin. So
(06:15):
you could choose to have all ofthe sites that you earn go to
your local currency, or youcould choose to maybe split 5050
or whatever is up to you. Soit's a quality of life
improvement for the creator, butit's also very cool. Next time I
want to pay for coffee, I canjust use my podcast app, which I
(06:35):
think is quite cool, an it showsthe future of interoperable
micropayments between all ofthese different apps.
Sam Sethi (06:42):
I want the video next time you go into a coffee shop,
I want you to post the video ofyou using Fountain to pay for
that coffee. Two or threequestions. And around that one
is, is there a minimumwithdrawal limit that you've set
or is it just take what you wantout when you want out?
Oscar Merry (06:58):
Yeah. So we do have some limits with the wallet
which are available on ourFacebook page, so you can go and
check them out.
Sam Sethi (07:05):
Okay. And one of the questions I saw because I was
reading on X, your announcementof it, and somebody in there
went, Oh, when are you going toput NWC? And I'm like, Well,
when but maybe you are. So NWCstands for not a Wallet Connect.
It's a feature of the all bignetwork, which is a different
network from the one you use,which is apathy. So my thoughts
(07:29):
are, no, you're not going toimplement NWC, but maybe I'm
totally wrong.
Oscar Merry (07:34):
Yeah. So we do actually have plans to support
Nostra Wallet Connect and I'llkind of explain the reasoning
behind this. So I think we willsee over the next few years many,
many more apps and services andplatforms adopting the Lightning
Network. And ultimately itdoesn't really make sense for
(07:55):
you as a user to have a balanceacross all of these different
apps and services that you use.Youmight have a balance on your
main roster client. You mighthave a balance in your podcast
app, a balance in your livestreaming app, a balance, and
you know, the list goes on thatdoesn't really make that much
sense. And what Napster WalletConnect allows you to do is have
(08:17):
one balance in your mainlightning wallet and connect
that to all of the differentapps you use and share the
balance and set limits. So Ithink it makes a lot of sense.
So we do plan to offer supportfor Nostra Wallet Connect. I'm
hoping we can get that in thisyear. Obviously, the one
downside to it is it does add alittle bit more friction in the
(08:39):
onboarding because as a brandnew user, a fountain, you don't
just have to download forms andand press the create wallet
button. You need to go andfigure out, okay, what's not the
wallet connect, How do I find mymain wallet? Who do I choose? So
we're definitely keeping theembedded fountain wallet because
that's the easiest way forpeople to get started, but not a
(09:00):
wallet. Connect is something forthose more advanced users that
are regularly using lightningacross all of these different
apps and services, it makes iteasier for them.
Sam Sethi (09:10):
I agree. I think it has to be an advanced feature. I
think any newbie trying tounderstand that would just, I
think, blow their minds. Thelast one is you're very well up
on this more than I am probably.
Bulk Well, where is that withinthe lexicon of timeline?
Oscar Merry (09:25):
Yeah. So from what I can see, Boat 12 is moving
along very nicely. There's morelightning wallets that are
supporting it already. I thinkin terms of podcasting 2.0 and
how we can look to adopt Boat 12,there's been a lot of discussion
in the podcast index GitHubdiscussions around how we change
(09:46):
the value block, which is thething that podcast use in that
RSS feed to tell apps like foundand where to send the money.
Essentially, we need to changethe way the value block works to
have an options file that allowspodcasters to say, okay, I
accept keys and I set both 11, Iaccept boat 12 and that way we
(10:08):
don't need to keep changing theRSS feeds Each time the
lightning protocol changes, wecan just have the podcast app
update the options file whichwill be generated for them by
whatever wallet service they use,whether that's fountain, whether
that's Audi, whether that'sstrike cash app essentially. So
yeah, I think it's on the wayand getting that options file
(10:29):
into the value box back is thefirst step.
Sam Sethi (10:32):
I'll leave you to do that work be great I'll just
copy it now what is differentwith Bolt 12?
Oscar Merry (10:38):
Oscar Yeah. So the key difference between Bolt 11
and 12 and both of these arejust the specification of how
you make lightning payments.
Bolt 11 requires generating aninvoice for every single payment,
and that adds friction for theuser because every time you want
to send a boost or you need togo request the new invoice,
(10:58):
whereas Bolt 12 is essentially areusable invoice. So it
optimizes the payment flow quitesignificantly. There's also a
bunch of other technicalbenefits to Bolt 12, which are
probably above my pay grade interms of the Lightning Network.
But the key example for whatwe're doing in terms of
supporting Creative supportingpodcast is a great example I
(11:21):
like to use. As for live stream,so obviously we've seen all the
concerts that have beenhappening and live streamed out
through our into all of thepodcasting 2.0 apps. They've
been amazing and artists likeAinsley Costello have done a
massive amount of money throughthis way more than the
traditional streaming platforms.
(11:42):
One thing we've always wanted todo at these concerts is have QR
codes so that people can just,you know, support in the actual
venue or like, you know, ifthey're walking past, they can
just scan the QR code and pay.
Now that doesn't work with Bolt11 because obviously when you
pay about 11 invoice, it's paidand you need to generate another
(12:04):
one. So Bolt 12 enables you tohave those static QR codes, and
that's really useful for liveevents. So you can imagine
inserting that static QR code onthe livestream video, for
example, so that anyone tuningin can just scan that if they're
watching it on a web platformand they don't actually have
(12:25):
access to the app. So for me,that's the main benefit of Bolt
12 is the static invoice, whichwill make it easier for people
to pay creators.
Sam Sethi (12:36):
Now, one of the things you announced that was
really impressive was the you'vealready paid out 1.6 Bitcoin.
For those who don't know what1.6 Bitcoin would equate to,
that's just over $100,000, whichis really, really cool that
you've seen that go through.
Fountain Tell me more about whatyou're seeing as the flow has
accelerated.
Oscar Merry (12:58):
Yeah, so we see regularly quite high payment
volume being sent from listenersto podcasters and this is
recurring revenue for thepodcast is because people love
supporting their favoritepodcasts. And if you can make it
easy for them and if you canbuild these social elements into
(13:18):
those payments as well, like wedo with Fountain, then you know,
people love to do it andpodcasters love receiving it.
Not only the payment but themessage and also the interaction
that's generated off the back ofthat. So yeah, this is a
credible way for podcasters togenerate an income for their
show. And I would encourage anypodcast that is listening to try
(13:41):
out obviously with newtechnology like the Lightning
Network that comes with, youknow, additional things that you
need to learn and it also comeswith additional friction for
someone that's brand new to this.
You know, what is a lightningwallet? How does it work? But
we've tried to make that assimple as possible in Fountain.
And with every release, it getssimpler, you know, withdrawing
(14:01):
via boats 11 is an example ofthat. And I think that as we
continue to solve the onboardingissues, as more of the
traditional financial servicecompanies adopt lightning, which
they are doing, then, you know,paying lightning invoices and
(14:21):
sending stats from one app toanother and back to your main
banking app. This will justbecome a normal thing. And when
that happens, I think thepayment volume on apps like
Fountain and the otherpodcasting 2.0 apps will really,
really increase. So yeah, Iwould encourage any podcasters
listening to get in now andcheck this out and figure out
(14:43):
how can I do all of the things Ineed to do to increase that
payment volume. The shows thatare regularly successful every
week on Fountain and on asignificant amount are the ones
that do all of the things thatAdam Curry voice talks about.
They get the ask right in theshow. They read the boose, they
reply to the boose in fountainor noster, which is, you know,
(15:04):
happy to talk more about thatrecent change. But yeah, this
thing is working. There isonboarding challenges whether
but I think it's the future andthe fact that you can have these
payments flow between thedifferent apps and also the
comments, the replies flowbetween the different apps. This
is the solution for the podcastindustry because there's no
(15:26):
other payment technology andthere's no other social
interaction technology thatenables this. So yeah, I'm
really excited to see what thenumber is next year, as I'm sure
it will increase a lot more.
Sam Sethi (15:39):
Well, as you mentioned. Oster Let's cover
that then. So for those thatdon't know, let's start off what
is noster and then we'll go tohow have Fountain integrated
with it.
Oscar Merry (15:51):
Yeah. So Noster is a decentralized identity
protocol. And what Napsterallows you to do is have one
social identity on the Internetand bring that with you to all
of the different apps that youuse. You don't only bring your
identity to the different apps,but you also bring your entire
(16:13):
social graph and all of thecontent that you've created. You
know, I won't bother gettinginto the technical details of
how the please.
Sam Sethi (16:22):
Please, though, because I was listening to you
interviewed by Max and the last10 minutes of that, even I
thought, Wow, I have no ideawhat you two are talking about.
It went from DNSSEC to somethingelse and I'm going, Yeah, don't
need to know. But anyway, let'sgo back to the practical cities
of Noster.
Oscar Merry (16:41):
Yeah. So you don't need to worry about any of that
as an individual that wants tobe social on the internet, which
is most of us what Napsterenables you to do is use all of
these different apps andservices with one profile, with
one set of followers, and witheverything tied back together.
(17:01):
So taking a step back to why wewanted to do this with Fountain,
actually the number one featurein Fountain, that podcast is
Love was our activity feed,because when someone sends a
boost to an episode that wouldgo into the activity feed and
not only do the podcasts getpaid, but they generate
(17:23):
discovery for their show forfree because everybody else
would see that boost in the feedand they think, Wow, 50,000 SATs,
This must be a good episode. Letme check it out. And we have
heard time and time again thatlisteners have discovered shows
on Fountain through the activityfeed. So it was a feature that
was working really well. But wehad an issue, which is the
(17:45):
fundamental issue that everynews social app has, which is
how do you bootstrap the socialgraph, How do you get people
following people with similarinterests? And the feature
doesn't work unless you followpeople that you care about. In
terms of that interest. WhatNapster allows us to do is have
people bring their existingfollower growth into fountain,
(18:08):
and then it also allows thoseboos and those episode comments
to leave the Fountain app and goand be discovered in other
places. So these boosts in theseepisode comments can be
discovered on the main roster.
Clients like Primal Timers andAmethyst. They can also be
queried by the other podcastapps pulled into the podcast
apps and used for cross outcomment. So Napster essentially
(18:32):
super powers the social featuresin fountain and makes the
discovery primarily way morepowerful. And since we launched
this feature a month ago, it wasa big change to fountain. And
it's not a trivial thing to ripout your existing social graph
and replace it with a new one.
(18:52):
It was a lot of work, but we'realready seeing this work
incredibly well. So somebody isin the fountain, they're
listening to an episode, theysend a boost because they love
the episode or they just leavean interesting comment that adds
value to the content of theepisode that appears on the
episode page in Fountain LikeNormal, it goes into the
fountain home feed like normal,but it also spreads out onto all
(19:17):
of these other Gnostic clientswhere people can see it, they
can repost it, they can quote it,they can reply to it, tagging
people that they follow, saying,Hey, this was an interesting
comment. So it just massivelyincreases the discovery that the
comments and the boost generatefor podcasters and ultimately
that's what they want. They wantnew people to discover that show.
(19:40):
And I don't think we've everseen anything like this in terms
of a podcast app being able togenerate conversation, but then
continues to happen on a regularsocial app like Twitter or
something like that. So it'sreally cool. There's a lot still
to do to polish the experience.
You know, the other podcasting2.0 apps on board. So you were
(20:00):
using not that I know there'sother ideas, but yeah, I'm a
massive believer in it and Ithink that as more and more apps
join the master network, therewill be even more of a reason to
adopt it and even more discoveryopportunity for podcasters.
Sam Sethi (20:20):
I think Wave Lake of Gold down a very similar road to
you. They supporting the NosterWallet Connect. They're
supporting obviously lightningpayments. They're doing a lot of
similar work it and I can see Ithink they've also joined the
Zebedee network as well They'vemoved away from Get Old Bay so
they're on the Zebedee networkas well so I can see this strong
(20:41):
synergy between the two. I'm,you know, I'm talking of
nostalgia. I think probably ayear ago there was a whole
conversation in the podcastingcommunity about why don't we
support Nostra? It seems like avery, very close cousin to what
we're doing with lightningpayments within the post, within
(21:02):
the capability. I think you'vetaken the bull by the horns and
gone and done thatimplementation. So there is a
strong link between the two andI can see the value in it where
you publish a boost or somelistening data from fountain out
to noster. Somebody then seesthat because they follow that
podcast, they then have theability to reply, comment or
(21:25):
give a micropayment backend andthen you expose that back inside
all found. And I see that lovelyloop of information discovery
and I think that's really cool.
And I think the challenge thatwe all have is post X and Elon
Musk is which platform is themajority of the market going to
(21:45):
go? Is it blue sky, is it goingto be Mastodon, Is it going to
be Noster? Is it going to beanother right threads being one?
And I think that's the onechallenge that we all have to do.
You and I had lunch together andwe talked about it in more
detail, but fundamentally myplatform through funds has gone
down the activity bulb road. Yougo down the Noster road and you
(22:07):
know, there are pros and consand I think the activity pop
stuff has some pros, but it hasa lot of cons as well to it as
in it doesn't have lightningpayments, it doesn't have that
loopback feature that you builtinto noster, but it does have a
larger adoption curve ofindividual users today. And so
(22:27):
it's where do you go and how doyou do it? And can you talk to
me about what we were talkingabout, which was how you and I
might be able to still use CrossARP comments. Even though we've
gone down separate protocols,we're still both doing the same
thing, which is social discoveryof podcasting apps through
boosts and comments and stuff.
(22:50):
But one nostrum once wasactivity pop, but that doesn't
preclude both of us. And Mitch apod verse and Jason and I
podcast guru and othersconnecting back all the comments
and tell me how you think that.
Oscar Merry (23:04):
Mike Yeah, that's a really great point. Sam, Because
Noster is an open protocol andbecause activity path is an open
protocol, these things can worktogether and they can be bridged
together. And in fact theyalready operate together through
services like ditto, which is areally cool activity pub server
(23:24):
with Noster integrated. Sothere's no real issue there. My
personal belief is that Noster,in terms of its capabilities and
potential, is just way morepowerful than activity. Bob
However, we can bridge back toActivity pub and we can display
(23:44):
activity pub posts in Fountainas part of the nostre content
that we already have. So I'm notconcerned about that at all. The
bridging can happen and I'm sureit will as we work out the
details. But I think what nosteroffers, which I don't think I've
really seen in Activity pub, isthe ability to do the kind of
(24:06):
reverse connection, and that's abit of a vague term. So I
explain it. I talked about howwhen you send a boost on
fountain or leave a comment onan episode, it gets broadcast
out to the rest of the Nosternetwork and discovery and
conversation can happen on thoseother Gnostic lines. You can do
that with Activity Pub as well.
But what I haven't seen a way todo on Activity Pub is the
(24:32):
reverse, where Fountain can pullin activity from the Noster
network and show that in theFountain app. So I'll give you a
great example. And honestly webuilt this and when I first
experienced it in the app, I wasactually amazed by it, which is
because we can query all thenoster relays because their data
(24:56):
is just open and out there. Wecan actually go and look for
podcast activity that exists onthe Noster network and show that
to you in Fountain, even if ithas nothing to do with Fountain
or even podcasting 2.0. So whatwe actually do in the home feed
is we look for anybody withinyour follower network that is
(25:16):
talking about podcasts, and wedo this just by some simple link
matching on the popular podcastthing, apps like Apple Podcasts.
But an example that I saw theother day was there was someone
I follow on Noster and he sharedan episode via an Apple podcast
episode link. And what we wereable to do, because we can query
(25:38):
the entire Noster network andfind posts like this was
detected, It was an ApplePodcasts episode link, reverse
engineer, the show and episodedetails. And then when we
display that post in thefountain, hopefully not only do
we show the Apple Podcasts URLjust as a hyperlink, but we can
show the content card inFountain. And I was able to just
(26:00):
see that and add the episode tomy queue because I thought it
looked interesting. So that kindof like reverse querying where
any developer is able to go outto the full must the network and
find any content they want anduse it in their app. I haven't
seen a way that you can do thatwith activity and that's like
one of the reasons, along withthe fact that it's got lightning
(26:22):
integrated, that I think noster,although you're right, the user
base currently is a lot smallerthan activity. I think it has
more potential for growth.
Sam Sethi (26:32):
And I don't disagree with you. I think the potential
for growth, given the integratedlightning payments is really
exciting. To answer yourquestion around the activity pop
stuff, the activity popstructure is a name box out box
metaphor, a bit like your email.
And so what we're doing istaking what's in your outbox. So
your activity on True funds, forexample, is your outbox. So I
(26:55):
listened to OSC on this show for10 minutes and that's published
out. And anyone who follows myaccount will see that in their
activity pipeline. What you'vegot is the metaphor which
doesn't exist right now, as inno one's really belt. It is us
doing what you're doing, whichis to find the counts that we
want to follow and then bringany podcast related content into
(27:19):
an inbox inside true funds tothen expose it. That's a much
longer play that we're not intoyet, but you're doing it, which
is very cool. And I think theemail outbox metaphors, how
active people work. And itsounds pretty much what Noster
has as well. You're publishingout content and then you're
bringing in content from thenoster relays. And I think
(27:42):
that's going to be a naturalevolution for the way that it
goes. As I said, I think you'reright. Noster has got the
micropayments, which is an extrabit on top, and I don't think
there's any conversation I'veseen anywhere within the
activity pub community about it,you know, Ghost for example, or
(28:02):
Flipboard or Threads or PixelFeed, none of them are talking
about it. They're very much inthe old metaphor, if I can use
that of a payment wall. So pay£1 to access this private area.
And that is not, as you and Iknow, a micropayment that is
just a paywall. So I think thatis a limitation and I think it's
(28:24):
going to be interesting to seehow blue sky goes. I don't think
that will make much difference.
So I guess you've taken the hugeleap that I would take right now,
which is to prove that you thinkNostra is the long term winner
of the protocol integration. Andlook, no one knows. Time will
(28:45):
tell. I think one of the thingsthat I would love to find out is
what are your thoughts, though,on how we cross the chasm to the
mainstream? Because looking atyour user base, you'd probably
say you've got the geek borrowsmore than anything else who are
comfortable in jumping throughthe hoops of understanding what
a wallet is, finding what aninvoice is, how to open an
(29:07):
account, get money into thewallet, then make micropayment,
and then withdraw that at theother end through an invoice
that is very, very geeky. And soI don't expect my wife or anyone
else to be doing that yet. Sohow do we get to that next stage
to increase the overall userbase?
Oscar Merry (29:28):
Great question. And something I think about a lot. I
think that the answer to this isdiscovery and ultimately people
are not going to use your appunless it's ten times better
than Apple Podcasts and offerssomething the Apple Podcast
doesn't offer. And I think thatdiscovery is that thing that we
(29:50):
can offer. And my view is thatnostalgia is the thing that
enables that discovery. Anotherexample I love to think about is
for many years podcasters havebeen told and in my view is the
right advice. Post your episodeson social media. Talk about your
episodes on social media,repurpose part of the episode
(30:12):
content on social media so thatit generates conversation and
people discover you episode andthat works. That is how you grow
your podcast audience on socialmedia. But that is a painful
experience, especially whenyou're using a platform that you
don't have control of thealgorithm because you don't know
what kind of content is going toexist there. And also you're
(30:34):
competing for that user'sattention with the clickbait
rage that exists on the feeds inapps like Twitter. So as a
creator, you're stuck in a spacewhere you're like, I know I need
to promote this on social media,but I don't want to. And also it
just doesn't feel good. I thinkwhat Gnostic can do is it can
(30:55):
provide that same discoverywhich we know works in terms of
growing an audience. But shift,I guess the work or the act of
generating the discovery fromthe creator onto that audience.
And I think if we can buildtools that do that and actually
show that it works, then forpodcasters and creators it will
(31:16):
become a no brainer. So whywould I encourage my audience to
listen on a podcast that thatdoesn't generate me free
discovery and free audiencegrowth? That's what we want to
do with Fountain. I thinkNapster is the solution to
enabling it. And also it's kindof like rising tide lifts all
boats with every other app orservice that joins in. It just
(31:38):
accelerates everything foreverybody. So yeah, I think it's
all about discovery and I thinkthat trying to build podcast
discovery in a single app isincredibly difficult. And we
have this opportunity now withopen social protocols to rethink
(31:59):
how podcast discovery works. Soyeah, I think that it's all
about discovery.
Sam Sethi (32:05):
Yeah, I remember from many years ago because I'm much
older than you, the browser wars,and there was that moment when
the web browser took off and Idon't know what that moment is
going to be for people tounderstand the wallet metaphor,
because I've often said in thepast it's the Internet, that's
(32:26):
the web, it's a browser, it'scalled HTTP, that's a URL. And I
remember people looking at methinking, I was talking Swahili.
And in many ways we've got thatsame problem now. Vocabulary.
It's a wallet. They're calledmicropayments that is SAS.
That's a boost. Therefore, youcan stream this as the Lightning
(32:46):
Network. That's how you sendmoney using it. I mean, when you
talk about it in thatterminology, it does sound geeky
and quite awkward, just as theearly ways that we use talk
about the web and now nobodyactually goes, Oh, what's your
web URL? They go, What's youraddress? And it's a throwaway
(33:08):
comment. It's like no one says,Oh, on your email is an IMAP or
a POP3. You just say, What'syour email address? And I think
if we can get to what's yourwallet address and I'm just
going to send you some money, Ithink that simplicity of
language will be much better forpeople to adopt and all the
hidden underlying. It's on theLightning Network and it's a
(33:29):
bold 12 and it's an invoice andit just disappears. You should
never have to know any of thatlogic.
Oscar Merr (33:36):
And I think as well, it's a great analogy going back
to the early days of theInternet and content creators
back then had a choice. Theywere like, Do I experiment with
this new thing, this newplatform called the Internet?
And the ones that did would haveseen huge, huge benefits for
them. It's the same with thelegacy social apps like Twitter,
(33:59):
The podcasters that were onTwitter early talking about
their podcast massivelybenefited from it. And so you
have a choice as a creator, doyou experiment with what's new,
knowing that there is a riskthat it doesn't go anywhere? But
I think the potential rewardfrom being early to these new
trends is huge because you canfind new audience, you can grow
(34:23):
with the with the protocol asopposed to trying to enter a
space that is so incrediblycrowded and where you're
competing with the absolutetrash clickbait attention
headline content that you see onevery other centralized social
media platform. So I think it'stime for us to escape those
(34:45):
platforms. I think noster is thesolution to all of these
problems. And if you're acontent creator or podcast, to
start experimenting now andbelieve me is incredible. You
send a boost on fountain or youleave a comment on an episode,
someone sees that on some otherrandom app and they send you
money for it. It's a prettyprofound difference in terms of
(35:06):
how social media is going towork on the Internet. So yeah,
check it out and if you have anyquestions, happy to talk more
about this directly with anyonethat's interested.
Sam Sethi (35:15):
Cool. So what address would I send that to? Are you on
x or are you on not A How wouldI find you?
Oscar Merry (35:22):
Yeah. So you can find me on pretty much all the
platforms. I'm on Twitter or Xmonster. You just search for my
name on any gnostic line orsummary or feel free to just
send me an email or fountain.
Sam Seth (35:37):
Oscar, thanks so much.
Congratulations with this launch.
Look forward to the next onespeeches you make.
Oscar Merry (35:43):
Thank you so much.
Say bye.
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