August 5, 2026 • 20 mins
Laurence Fox joins Erin Molan for a full debrief after his viral Oxford Union speech in the debate, “This House Believes the West Is Right to Be Suspicious of Islam.”
Fox reveals the truth behind the now-famous envelope moment, what his wife stopped him from showing—and what happened when security woke him and his wife at 3AM and told them: “We’ve got to go. Now.”
The Oxford Union Islam debate featuring Laurence Fox, Tommy Robinson, Jacob Rees-Mogg and others exploded online after the entire chamber appeared to tense up as Fox reached into an envelope believed to contain a Muhammad cartoon.
In this interview, Laurence Fox explains the strategy behind that viral moment, the reference to Charlie Hebdo, what the atmosphere was really like inside the Oxford Union and what happened after he and his wife returned to their hotel.
Fox and Erin also discuss free speech, Islamism, religious extremism, integration, Western values and whether fear itself proved the central argument of the Oxford debate.
Laurence opens up about the death threats and personal cost of speaking publicly, his Christian faith, why he invoked Winston Churchill, the powerful lesson his late mother taught him about truth—and whether he still hopes to return to acting.
Subscribe to The Erin Molan Show for fearless interviews, breaking political analysis and honest conversations about the future of the West.
___________________________________________
⏱️ CHAPTERS
00:00 Laurence Fox’s viral Oxford Islam debate moment
01:53 Erin reveals the unanswered 3AM mystery
02:20 Laurence Fox joins Erin Molan
02:39 Fox reacts to claims he was “destroyed” at Oxford
03:14 Inside the viral envelope moment
03:53 What his wife stopped him from showing
05:53 Security wakes Fox and his wife at 3AM
06:26 Did the aftermath prove his argument?
08:02 The security comment that stunned Erin
09:07 Fox on appeasement and Islamic dominance
10:41 Why he keeps speaking despite the threats
12:40 Are Western nations abandoning their culture?
13:28 Winston Churchill and the power of brave voices
14:55 Truth, integrity and the influence of Fox’s mother
15:49 The Muslim man who stopped Fox in the street
16:52 Erin’s childhood in Muslim-majority Indonesia
18:32 Respect, integration and Western values
19:30 “I would rather fight and die for my culture”
19:59 Will Laurence Fox return to acting?
___________________________________________
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
The people who behead, the people who wage wars, the
people who attack, and the people who's stone in the head.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And these are not followers of Islam.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
The motion is about Islam.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
Let's get this out, shall we.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Seventy eight percent of British Muslims believe that no publication
should publish pictures of Muhammad. Suspicion is not strong enough word.
The West should resist Islam in the strongest terms on
free speech grounds alone. So here we are with this cartoon, right,
and then it's time to show that I will not submit.
(00:44):
I will not adhere to the religious laws of far
off places. Now my wife asked me not to show
this for fear of repercussions in my family, but I
told her that if I did not, then I had
already submitted to his own.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
So here we are, is it?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I off?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That's how the team that invites.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
You, excuse me, would have order had been raised on
here this is librarian.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I wonder whether the rule of props the same. I
am going to rule on the point of order.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
There is no bar in the forms of the House
against the use of props.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
However, I would encourage mister Fox to make a point
of movie I was until point of order.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So it is in that spirit that I will not
submit that I show you this as an Englishman who
believes in free speech, I will not submit.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I will not bow.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Down outside writing against you tonight. And without the protection
and generosity of the Muslim Palatinian President and the mostly
South Asian executive Committee, you would be quite literally cooked.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Three o'clock in the morning, my wife and I were
woken up by our security in the hotel we were
staying at and they said, we've.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Got to go. We've gotta go now.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
His speech went viral at the Oxford debate on whether
the West is right to be suspicious of Islam, a
mob baying for his blood as he went in and
left as well. What you don't know, though, is what
happened to Lawrence Fox at three am that morning. Go
(02:21):
Lawrence Fox. First of all, congratulations on an epic job
at the debate. You did brilliantly, Thank.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
You, Aaron. Yes, well, I mean I didn't think I
did brilliantly.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I think they did brilliantly for me because I sort
of anticipated what they were going to do so and
they did it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Bizarre that you say that, because according to a couple
of headlines I saw, like the London Economic Tommy Robinson
and Lawrence Fox destroyed in Oxford Union debate.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I mean, I can't like, really they are The London
Economic are a strange kind of online paper, but they
have a particular fixation with.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Them, with me and they.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I mean, as it left, if I'm keeping someone in
an either unpaid or very low paid job to criticize me,
then good, I'm helping capitalism.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
One hundred percent. Look, anyone with I mean even half
a brain would have watched it and determined very quickly
who came out on top, and that was you and
your team. Take me to the moment I want to
start here. You've got the envelope in your hand. My
heart was beating through my chest and I was watching
a replay like a month later. I can't imagine what
(03:34):
was going through your mind. And as an extension to that,
and you made the point brilliantly yourself on social media,
what does that say to us about the fact that
we were all terrified as to what you may pull out?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
It was?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
It was really interesting because originally I was going to
pull out the cartoon, the actual cartoon, because and I
then told my wife I was going to do that,
and my wife cares deeply about me and our children,
so she said, you can make the same point without
showing the cartoon.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
You can show any cartoon.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
You could show a picture of you know, Mickey Mouse,
and it would be the same thing, because what it
is it's the anticipation. So in my head I'd forgotten
that it wasn't a cartoon of Muhammad. And then also
that on the other side in England, there's a very
sort of interesting cohort of people in England, especially in
very Islamic towns like Luton where Tommy Robinson comes from,
(04:31):
of men that are so frightened of the isthmus threat
in Britain that they convert. So on the other benches
alongside the speakers were a bunch of sort of Studtish
ex Cohn white men who go, oh, Hondola and you
know they're all super Muslim, but they're working past white
kids who just you know, have gone to prison and
had to submit to Islam because otherwise they wanted to
(04:51):
get through prison, so they were on the edge of
their seats. I had a security team for man Ex
Special Forces security team with me and they were.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
They told me they were getting to something.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I could feel the room getting very anxious, and I,
before I'd got into the debate, I'd written ch on
the envelope because I just wanted to really rub it
in that it might be Charlie Hibdo. And then as
I as I was beginning to take it out, and
I'm an actor by.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Trade, noted extensive work behind you.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yeah, And I so that comes in helpful as a skill,
you know, to the dramatic tension of banging an envelope.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
On the side.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
And I got my assistant to go and get me
an envelope with a little string on it to make
it even more tense. And then I took out the cartoon,
and the whole rooms were cool and you go and
then laughed, because that's what we need in fun western
liberal democracy.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
We wanted to be.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
We want to be able to mock each other and
laugh at each other's stupidities and stuff like that, and
they and the it relaxed.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
But then it's three o'clock in the morning. My wife
and I were working up by.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Osecurity in a hotel we were staying at, and they said,
we've got to go we've got to go now.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
So we were moved to at three in the morning.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
We will moved to a friend's house out in the countryside,
not many miles way from Oxford, and we stayed there
with a security go sleeping at the end of our bed.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Essentially, so it was mad.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
And again, and you made this point yourself so brilliantly.
Based on that alone, you would have to say that
there is a logistical valid reason for you to be
suspicious of Islam based on that fear alone, The fear
that existed inside that room alone, should be enough evidence
(06:35):
that we've got a problem here.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Well, I think it's a very visceral feeling, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
You know, it's very It's a sort of cognitive dissonance
that we have in the West that you know, all
cultures are the same, all religions are the same. I'm
very much a believer in the fact that there's one
human race and all of this thing. I'm sort of
normal that way, But I don't believe ideologies and cultures
are the same. So the idea of taking out of
being so offended by you showing the picture of somebody
(07:00):
else's sky wizard that they would want to kill you,
which they've done in Charlie Hebdo, and you know the
Massacs in Buttclan, and Samuel what's his name, I've forgotten
Patti who was beheaded in France, and the many, many
murders and mutilations done in the name of Islam. Whether
you believe that these things are because of Islam or
whether they were motivated by or misappropriately by people who
(07:23):
do that. The most important point of our culture and
our society is that we have to discuss and debate
these ideas. And one of the things we have to
discuss and debate is should I be killed if I
show a picture of your sky wizard, because I'm not
going to get upset if you show a picture of mine.
Even though in the Bible it says, you know, do
not worship full side dogs and all of these things,
but it doesn't say in the Bible kill people that do.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And there in lies a difference. And the point was made,
and it was such an own goal. And I don't
know whether she was aware of it even as she
said it, maybe not afterwards, not sure if it hit her.
I'm sure it's hit her now, A you sure I
refer to one of the debaters on the other side
where she looked at Tommy and you guys and almost
boasted that she had organized security and if she hadn't,
(08:09):
the mob of Islamist thugs outside would have cooked you
as though, well, here is the evidence, because I am
a Muslim and I sorted your security. So there you go.
You know, all is well in the world. Well, the
point that she actually made inadvertently was the complete opposite,
that there's not a group of Catholics out there beying
for blood, nor a group of Jews, nor a group
(08:31):
of Hindus or anyone else in the name of that religion.
And you can argue to the cows come home that well,
this doesn't say this, and the cron doesn't say this
in that particular part. If people are evoking in the
name of that religion and killing in the name of
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(08:52):
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(09:36):
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Speaker 3 (10:12):
Do it well exactly, And also that some of the
verses that equationd at you about the tolerance it's demanded
in the Islam are quotes directly from the Quran about
when Islam is in a minority in a nation and
therefore it encourages you to compromise in all of these
sorts of things until your majority. And we've seen what's
happened in Lebanon, in Egypt and other countries where Christianity
(10:33):
has been obliterated by Islam.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
So for her to say.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
That, that's a sign, a very worrying sign in my
view that and to be fair to us, she's a
young woman and she's learning about what she thinks, and
so we should forgive her and love her and all
the things that Christians need to do.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
But it was a sign of.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
How we're now moving into Islamic dominance in the UK
because for so long we've appeased is arm Which was
the main point of my speech was to say, look
what happens when we are peace fascism and I don't
think there's a great deal of difference between the two
ideologies actually, and you know socialism as well, actually to
be included in that which is dominant and force it
and saying you're only allowed to have an opinion because
(11:13):
I give you the right to have one, and as
an english Man who's born in brett in England and believes.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I'm not an eth nationalist.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I'm a civic nationalist, I would say, but I willed
off my cap to the nascist and I think we do.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Our ethnicity is important, we should protect it.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
But for a Muslim woman to turn around and say,
the only reason you're allowed an opinion is because a
Muslim woman tells you can have one, and if you didn't,
and if we didn't protect you, you'd be dead, I
think is a lesson. Hopefully she learns as she gets
older and matures that this will be something that she
probably regrets saying.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Why do you do it? I mean I'm in a
similar position in that, you know, death threats are a
huge part of my life now and I look for
a reason why. That helps me to understand, and I think, well,
I mean, I oppose terrorism, and I stand up for
innocence everywhere, and I'm fighting against an ideology that wants
to destroy us all. I mean, that makes a lot
(12:05):
of sense to me. I know why I do it?
Why do you do it? I?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
As I said, for many years I was an actor
and I hope to be an actor again, and I
sort of got bored of being told by people who
are being paid twenty five thousand pounds a week that
they were oppressed and victims.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
And all of this some stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
And I'm deeply upset as a Christian that people talk
about skin color meaning anything really, So that really bothered me,
and I started just after a while, I thought, you know,
I'm a Christian as well, so I thought, I need
to say the truth, and I don't and I will
be protected in that.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
It's not been easy. It's been very hard.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I really miss I really really miss the thing that
I'm actually trained that and good at.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
But I sometimes I think that you're you know, someone
said to me.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
An American guy said to me once that God often
writes with a crooked pencil, and you know, that's the thing.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
I didn't really have a choice. I had to say it.
I had to.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
I was absolutely I found it abhorrent to the Black
Lives Matter movement. I find it abhorrent this endless obsession
with skin color. I think it's so divisive, and I
just wanted to live in a world where we took
people as Mardin, Luther King said on the content of
the character ahead of the color of their skin, which
then gives you opportunity to sit there and say, well,
hang on a minute. Islam does say this that there's
(13:24):
a lot of there's a lot of mosques in Britain
and there's not a lot of church using read. So
I just wanted to say, you know, we we shouldn't
be demoralized about our culture, which has created some amazing
and wonderful things.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
We should be confident about that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It's one of the saddest things. I look at my
country and there are so many different, you know, similarities.
My show is predominantly in the US, so I look
at what's going on in there at the moment as well,
and I we're raising a generation of young people who
despise all that we stand for, who don't understand how
great and wonderful we are, who don't appreciate the blood
(13:59):
that our forefathers spilled to protect our way of life,
our values. And not only are we appeasing people coming
in who who want to destroy us, we're giving them
a leg up. We're actually helping them. We are the
architects of our own demise, and it's it's actually depressing.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
It is depressing right up until you realize that this
isn't the first time this has happened, you know, And
it's also I was I'm wonderfully the one of the
reasons why I invoked Churchill in the debate was Churchill
was one of very very few people in Britain at
the time who thought that it was a good idea
to really strongly resist flashism. You know, a number of
(14:39):
people you could probably count on one hand. So all
it takes is a few brave voices to reverse this stuff,
and you know, you get shot down for it. And
that's fine. I don't go to bed at night going
I got paid to lie, you know, and that's a
good thing, because we've got enough things to go to
bed worrying about. But being totally an authentic and being
a grifter is not one of the ones that I
(15:00):
get to bet on. I had a very successful actual career.
I made a huge amount of money out of it,
and I now make a lot less money out of it,
but I at least get to go. I think it's
been watched five million times now just on my channel,
and I've had mostly really people saying I'm so glad
somebody said it, you know, same you've got a platform,
use it.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
It's incredible, isn't it? What satisfies people? And I'm exactly
the same in that I would rather go to bed
worried about my safety than worried that I've compromised my
integrity or my values or I've done something that doesn't align.
I just think there are not a lot of people
who are like that, And in some ways that's a
(15:38):
great thing because those of us who are, you know,
you get more space to move in. But it can
be a lonely existence too.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
I think it's a sign of being well raised that
you know that somebody is putting your soul, that the
most important thing is the truth and everything else is
a distruction. And I remember being told that by my mum,
God rest her soul. She would say, she would say
the wisest things.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
And you know, this was a.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Woman who were of what we were calling England low birth,
who was a nurse, and she was passionate about the truth.
And you can't once you've got that put into by
your parents, who can't get rid of it, it becomes
part of you. And then you know, I just I
just see the fruits of those of people who follow truth,
and I go, good for you, and I admire everybody
(16:26):
who stands up, but I also want to find a
plague way of respecting. I had a Muslim guy stopped
in the street yesterday on my way out of my
brains gun to check where I had a brain left,
and he said to me.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
He wasn't hopeful that you did.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
It was really nice, you know, he said, most Muslims,
most muslim Men like me, would agree with you.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
It wouldn't mind you're mocking all.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
And I said, well, with all due respect, I don't
think you're a muslim Man because it's pretty clear that
you're not allowed and you're like a like a cultural
Muslim more.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
He sort of laughed.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
And then you get the hardcore guys, and all I
really want to do is sit down listen to them,
because I also think you need to be humble and
try and learn. But at the same time, I have
a right to turn around and say this is dangerous.
Our culture is built on disagreement and respectful debate, and
the heritage that you're talking about, which our children are
selling away to the lowest bidder and appeasing and giving
(17:23):
up the country at the same time, is built on robust,
crystal thinking debate and it doesn't need to be aggressive.
But if you don't talk, and if you can't debate
these ideas, then you will fight over them in time,
and I don't want that to happen exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
You wouldn't know this about me, but I spent a
big part of my childhood in Indonesia, the world's largest
Muslim nation. My dad was at the embassy there on
a couple of different postings, and I speak the language fluently.
I go back regularly, I visit Muslim orphanages. You know,
I'm so passionate about that country. And one of the
things that you know, I was raised incredibly well by
(17:58):
parents who displayed curry over and over again and showed
my siblings and I how to do that as well.
And one of the things I say is that, you know,
my fight against Islamic extremism and terrorism in all of
its forms is on behalf of them as well. They
die more than anyone else at the hands of this
(18:19):
utter evil. The other point I'd make is when we
were there, one of the things that used to drive
my siblings and I insane is it Mum and Dad
forced us to respect every bloody bit of that culture.
We could not use this hand because it was disrespectful.
When the mosque was when the prayers akbah prayer was
going out, we would have to stop and show our respect.
Even as ten year olds, we couldn't show our shoulders.
(18:41):
We would cover our shoulders and that was how we
showed respect in a Mulslom nation. I look at the
opposite now in Western nations, where there is almost no
respect shown, in fact, the complete opposite. There's no embracing
of our culture, no shows of respect. It in a
lot of places is a takeover. And you look at Spain,
you look at elements of Europe, a lot of parts
of your own country. It's terrifying. Dearborn Michigan, just yesterday,
(19:06):
you know that that's not what we were doing in
a Muslim majority nation. It's the complete opposite.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Well again, I think this is the fact that the
West has been very successful and that the West understands.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
You know. The great thing.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
I love the suity analogy, you know of saying the
guy when the widows were burned on the funeral powers
in India, the English viceroid turned around and said, that's fine,
and you can carry on burning them. But what we're
going to do is we're going to build the gallows
next to it, and anyone who puts her on the
fire is going to hang them. It is an English
sense of moderation and an Anglo's sense of moderation, which
(19:42):
is we're not here to mark and ridicule Islam in
a majority Muslim country. But in the same way as
when you visit our country, we ask you to respect
our traditions, our value z heritage in our culture. But
the difference and the difficulty with sort of the sort
of is Lamo fascist is socialist movement is that that's
(20:03):
not enough for them. You have to utterly submit. And
you know that's not that's not gonna work, because you
can see in England, and I'm sure you're seeing in Australia,
and certainly there will be seeing in America that if
you do submit, you have submitted, You've submitted, and once
you submit, you're not coming out of that again.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
So I would rather fight and die for my culture.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
But first of all, I'd rather I'd like to have
a discussion before we before people have.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
To take that glove.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
It's much more pleasant than dying for it. Fingers crossed,
you won't have to go that far. Lawrence. Thank you
so so much for your voice, for your fight, for
your passion, and I cannot wait to watch you back
on the big screen where you belong as well. I
have no doubt that that party of your life is
coming back as well.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
I really I have hope. So to you. Thank you
a lovely speech. You
The people who behead, the people who wage wars, the
people who attack, and the people who's stone in the head.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
And these are not followers of Islam.
Speaker 3 (00:16):
The motion is about Islam.
Speaker 4 (00:18):
Let's get this out, shall we.
Speaker 3 (00:20):
Seventy eight percent of British Muslims believe that no publication
should publish pictures of Muhammad. Suspicion is not strong enough word.
The West should resist Islam in the strongest terms on
free speech grounds alone. So here we are with this cartoon, right,
and then it's time to show that I will not submit.
(00:44):
I will not adhere to the religious laws of far
off places. Now my wife asked me not to show
this for fear of repercussions in my family, but I
told her that if I did not, then I had
already submitted to his own.
Speaker 4 (00:54):
So here we are, is it?
Speaker 3 (00:56):
I off?
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That's how the team that invites.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
You, excuse me, would have order had been raised on
here this is librarian.
Speaker 4 (01:02):
I wonder whether the rule of props the same. I
am going to rule on the point of order.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
There is no bar in the forms of the House
against the use of props.
Speaker 4 (01:11):
However, I would encourage mister Fox to make a point
of movie I was until point of order.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
So it is in that spirit that I will not
submit that I show you this as an Englishman who
believes in free speech, I will not submit.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
I will not bow.
Speaker 1 (01:29):
Down outside writing against you tonight. And without the protection
and generosity of the Muslim Palatinian President and the mostly
South Asian executive Committee, you would be quite literally cooked.
Speaker 3 (01:46):
Three o'clock in the morning, my wife and I were
woken up by our security in the hotel we were
staying at and they said, we've.
Speaker 4 (01:51):
Got to go. We've gotta go now.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
His speech went viral at the Oxford debate on whether
the West is right to be suspicious of Islam, a
mob baying for his blood as he went in and
left as well. What you don't know, though, is what
happened to Lawrence Fox at three am that morning. Go
(02:21):
Lawrence Fox. First of all, congratulations on an epic job
at the debate. You did brilliantly, Thank.
Speaker 4 (02:29):
You, Aaron. Yes, well, I mean I didn't think I
did brilliantly.
Speaker 3 (02:32):
I think they did brilliantly for me because I sort
of anticipated what they were going to do so and
they did it.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
Bizarre that you say that, because according to a couple
of headlines I saw, like the London Economic Tommy Robinson
and Lawrence Fox destroyed in Oxford Union debate.
Speaker 3 (02:49):
I mean, I can't like, really they are The London
Economic are a strange kind of online paper, but they
have a particular fixation with.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Them, with me and they.
Speaker 3 (03:02):
I mean, as it left, if I'm keeping someone in
an either unpaid or very low paid job to criticize me,
then good, I'm helping capitalism.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
One hundred percent. Look, anyone with I mean even half
a brain would have watched it and determined very quickly
who came out on top, and that was you and
your team. Take me to the moment I want to
start here. You've got the envelope in your hand. My
heart was beating through my chest and I was watching
a replay like a month later. I can't imagine what
(03:34):
was going through your mind. And as an extension to that,
and you made the point brilliantly yourself on social media,
what does that say to us about the fact that
we were all terrified as to what you may pull out?
Speaker 4 (03:48):
It was?
Speaker 3 (03:48):
It was really interesting because originally I was going to
pull out the cartoon, the actual cartoon, because and I
then told my wife I was going to do that,
and my wife cares deeply about me and our children,
so she said, you can make the same point without
showing the cartoon.
Speaker 4 (04:08):
You can show any cartoon.
Speaker 3 (04:09):
You could show a picture of you know, Mickey Mouse,
and it would be the same thing, because what it
is it's the anticipation. So in my head I'd forgotten
that it wasn't a cartoon of Muhammad. And then also
that on the other side in England, there's a very
sort of interesting cohort of people in England, especially in
very Islamic towns like Luton where Tommy Robinson comes from,
(04:31):
of men that are so frightened of the isthmus threat
in Britain that they convert. So on the other benches
alongside the speakers were a bunch of sort of Studtish
ex Cohn white men who go, oh, Hondola and you
know they're all super Muslim, but they're working past white
kids who just you know, have gone to prison and
had to submit to Islam because otherwise they wanted to
(04:51):
get through prison, so they were on the edge of
their seats. I had a security team for man Ex
Special Forces security team with me and they were.
Speaker 4 (04:58):
They told me they were getting to something.
Speaker 3 (05:00):
I could feel the room getting very anxious, and I,
before I'd got into the debate, I'd written ch on
the envelope because I just wanted to really rub it
in that it might be Charlie Hibdo. And then as
I as I was beginning to take it out, and
I'm an actor by.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Trade, noted extensive work behind you.
Speaker 3 (05:19):
Yeah, And I so that comes in helpful as a skill,
you know, to the dramatic tension of banging an envelope.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
On the side.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
And I got my assistant to go and get me
an envelope with a little string on it to make
it even more tense. And then I took out the cartoon,
and the whole rooms were cool and you go and
then laughed, because that's what we need in fun western
liberal democracy.
Speaker 4 (05:43):
We wanted to be.
Speaker 3 (05:44):
We want to be able to mock each other and
laugh at each other's stupidities and stuff like that, and
they and the it relaxed.
Speaker 4 (05:52):
But then it's three o'clock in the morning. My wife
and I were working up by.
Speaker 3 (05:54):
Osecurity in a hotel we were staying at, and they said,
we've got to go we've got to go now.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
So we were moved to at three in the morning.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
We will moved to a friend's house out in the countryside,
not many miles way from Oxford, and we stayed there
with a security go sleeping at the end of our bed.
Speaker 4 (06:10):
Essentially, so it was mad.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
And again, and you made this point yourself so brilliantly.
Based on that alone, you would have to say that
there is a logistical valid reason for you to be
suspicious of Islam based on that fear alone, The fear
that existed inside that room alone, should be enough evidence
(06:35):
that we've got a problem here.
Speaker 4 (06:38):
Well, I think it's a very visceral feeling, isn't it.
Speaker 3 (06:40):
You know, it's very It's a sort of cognitive dissonance
that we have in the West that you know, all
cultures are the same, all religions are the same. I'm
very much a believer in the fact that there's one
human race and all of this thing. I'm sort of
normal that way, But I don't believe ideologies and cultures
are the same. So the idea of taking out of
being so offended by you showing the picture of somebody
(07:00):
else's sky wizard that they would want to kill you,
which they've done in Charlie Hebdo, and you know the
Massacs in Buttclan, and Samuel what's his name, I've forgotten
Patti who was beheaded in France, and the many, many
murders and mutilations done in the name of Islam. Whether
you believe that these things are because of Islam or
whether they were motivated by or misappropriately by people who
(07:23):
do that. The most important point of our culture and
our society is that we have to discuss and debate
these ideas. And one of the things we have to
discuss and debate is should I be killed if I
show a picture of your sky wizard, because I'm not
going to get upset if you show a picture of mine.
Even though in the Bible it says, you know, do
not worship full side dogs and all of these things,
but it doesn't say in the Bible kill people that do.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
And there in lies a difference. And the point was made,
and it was such an own goal. And I don't
know whether she was aware of it even as she
said it, maybe not afterwards, not sure if it hit her.
I'm sure it's hit her now, A you sure I
refer to one of the debaters on the other side
where she looked at Tommy and you guys and almost
boasted that she had organized security and if she hadn't,
(08:09):
the mob of Islamist thugs outside would have cooked you
as though, well, here is the evidence, because I am
a Muslim and I sorted your security. So there you go.
You know, all is well in the world. Well, the
point that she actually made inadvertently was the complete opposite,
that there's not a group of Catholics out there beying
for blood, nor a group of Jews, nor a group
(08:31):
of Hindus or anyone else in the name of that religion.
And you can argue to the cows come home that well,
this doesn't say this, and the cron doesn't say this
in that particular part. If people are evoking in the
name of that religion and killing in the name of
that religion, you've got a problem. Are you looking for
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Speaker 3 (10:12):
Do it well exactly, And also that some of the
verses that equationd at you about the tolerance it's demanded
in the Islam are quotes directly from the Quran about
when Islam is in a minority in a nation and
therefore it encourages you to compromise in all of these
sorts of things until your majority. And we've seen what's
happened in Lebanon, in Egypt and other countries where Christianity
(10:33):
has been obliterated by Islam.
Speaker 4 (10:36):
So for her to say.
Speaker 3 (10:37):
That, that's a sign, a very worrying sign in my
view that and to be fair to us, she's a
young woman and she's learning about what she thinks, and
so we should forgive her and love her and all
the things that Christians need to do.
Speaker 4 (10:50):
But it was a sign of.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
How we're now moving into Islamic dominance in the UK
because for so long we've appeased is arm Which was
the main point of my speech was to say, look
what happens when we are peace fascism and I don't
think there's a great deal of difference between the two
ideologies actually, and you know socialism as well, actually to
be included in that which is dominant and force it
and saying you're only allowed to have an opinion because
(11:13):
I give you the right to have one, and as
an english Man who's born in brett in England and believes.
Speaker 4 (11:19):
I'm not an eth nationalist.
Speaker 3 (11:20):
I'm a civic nationalist, I would say, but I willed
off my cap to the nascist and I think we do.
Speaker 4 (11:25):
Our ethnicity is important, we should protect it.
Speaker 3 (11:27):
But for a Muslim woman to turn around and say,
the only reason you're allowed an opinion is because a
Muslim woman tells you can have one, and if you didn't,
and if we didn't protect you, you'd be dead, I
think is a lesson. Hopefully she learns as she gets
older and matures that this will be something that she
probably regrets saying.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Why do you do it? I mean I'm in a
similar position in that, you know, death threats are a
huge part of my life now and I look for
a reason why. That helps me to understand, and I think, well,
I mean, I oppose terrorism, and I stand up for
innocence everywhere, and I'm fighting against an ideology that wants
to destroy us all. I mean, that makes a lot
(12:05):
of sense to me. I know why I do it?
Why do you do it? I?
Speaker 3 (12:10):
As I said, for many years I was an actor
and I hope to be an actor again, and I
sort of got bored of being told by people who
are being paid twenty five thousand pounds a week that
they were oppressed and victims.
Speaker 4 (12:24):
And all of this some stuff.
Speaker 3 (12:26):
And I'm deeply upset as a Christian that people talk
about skin color meaning anything really, So that really bothered me,
and I started just after a while, I thought, you know,
I'm a Christian as well, so I thought, I need
to say the truth, and I don't and I will
be protected in that.
Speaker 4 (12:43):
It's not been easy. It's been very hard.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
I really miss I really really miss the thing that
I'm actually trained that and good at.
Speaker 4 (12:50):
But I sometimes I think that you're you know, someone
said to me.
Speaker 3 (12:53):
An American guy said to me once that God often
writes with a crooked pencil, and you know, that's the thing.
Speaker 4 (12:59):
I didn't really have a choice. I had to say it.
I had to.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
I was absolutely I found it abhorrent to the Black
Lives Matter movement. I find it abhorrent this endless obsession
with skin color. I think it's so divisive, and I
just wanted to live in a world where we took
people as Mardin, Luther King said on the content of
the character ahead of the color of their skin, which
then gives you opportunity to sit there and say, well,
hang on a minute. Islam does say this that there's
(13:24):
a lot of there's a lot of mosques in Britain
and there's not a lot of church using read. So
I just wanted to say, you know, we we shouldn't
be demoralized about our culture, which has created some amazing
and wonderful things.
Speaker 4 (13:34):
We should be confident about that.
Speaker 2 (13:37):
It's one of the saddest things. I look at my
country and there are so many different, you know, similarities.
My show is predominantly in the US, so I look
at what's going on in there at the moment as well,
and I we're raising a generation of young people who
despise all that we stand for, who don't understand how
great and wonderful we are, who don't appreciate the blood
(13:59):
that our forefathers spilled to protect our way of life,
our values. And not only are we appeasing people coming
in who who want to destroy us, we're giving them
a leg up. We're actually helping them. We are the
architects of our own demise, and it's it's actually depressing.
Speaker 3 (14:17):
It is depressing right up until you realize that this
isn't the first time this has happened, you know, And
it's also I was I'm wonderfully the one of the
reasons why I invoked Churchill in the debate was Churchill
was one of very very few people in Britain at
the time who thought that it was a good idea
to really strongly resist flashism. You know, a number of
(14:39):
people you could probably count on one hand. So all
it takes is a few brave voices to reverse this stuff,
and you know, you get shot down for it. And
that's fine. I don't go to bed at night going
I got paid to lie, you know, and that's a
good thing, because we've got enough things to go to
bed worrying about. But being totally an authentic and being
a grifter is not one of the ones that I
(15:00):
get to bet on. I had a very successful actual career.
I made a huge amount of money out of it,
and I now make a lot less money out of it,
but I at least get to go. I think it's
been watched five million times now just on my channel,
and I've had mostly really people saying I'm so glad
somebody said it, you know, same you've got a platform,
use it.
Speaker 2 (15:17):
It's incredible, isn't it? What satisfies people? And I'm exactly
the same in that I would rather go to bed
worried about my safety than worried that I've compromised my
integrity or my values or I've done something that doesn't align.
I just think there are not a lot of people
who are like that, And in some ways that's a
(15:38):
great thing because those of us who are, you know,
you get more space to move in. But it can
be a lonely existence too.
Speaker 3 (15:45):
I think it's a sign of being well raised that
you know that somebody is putting your soul, that the
most important thing is the truth and everything else is
a distruction. And I remember being told that by my mum,
God rest her soul. She would say, she would say
the wisest things.
Speaker 4 (16:03):
And you know, this was a.
Speaker 3 (16:04):
Woman who were of what we were calling England low birth,
who was a nurse, and she was passionate about the truth.
And you can't once you've got that put into by
your parents, who can't get rid of it, it becomes
part of you. And then you know, I just I
just see the fruits of those of people who follow truth,
and I go, good for you, and I admire everybody
(16:26):
who stands up, but I also want to find a
plague way of respecting. I had a Muslim guy stopped
in the street yesterday on my way out of my
brains gun to check where I had a brain left,
and he said to me.
Speaker 2 (16:37):
He wasn't hopeful that you did.
Speaker 3 (16:41):
It was really nice, you know, he said, most Muslims,
most muslim Men like me, would agree with you.
Speaker 4 (16:48):
It wouldn't mind you're mocking all.
Speaker 3 (16:51):
And I said, well, with all due respect, I don't
think you're a muslim Man because it's pretty clear that
you're not allowed and you're like a like a cultural
Muslim more.
Speaker 4 (17:00):
He sort of laughed.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
And then you get the hardcore guys, and all I
really want to do is sit down listen to them,
because I also think you need to be humble and
try and learn. But at the same time, I have
a right to turn around and say this is dangerous.
Our culture is built on disagreement and respectful debate, and
the heritage that you're talking about, which our children are
selling away to the lowest bidder and appeasing and giving
(17:23):
up the country at the same time, is built on robust,
crystal thinking debate and it doesn't need to be aggressive.
But if you don't talk, and if you can't debate
these ideas, then you will fight over them in time,
and I don't want that to happen exactly.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
You wouldn't know this about me, but I spent a
big part of my childhood in Indonesia, the world's largest
Muslim nation. My dad was at the embassy there on
a couple of different postings, and I speak the language fluently.
I go back regularly, I visit Muslim orphanages. You know,
I'm so passionate about that country. And one of the
things that you know, I was raised incredibly well by
(17:58):
parents who displayed curry over and over again and showed
my siblings and I how to do that as well.
And one of the things I say is that, you know,
my fight against Islamic extremism and terrorism in all of
its forms is on behalf of them as well. They
die more than anyone else at the hands of this
(18:19):
utter evil. The other point I'd make is when we
were there, one of the things that used to drive
my siblings and I insane is it Mum and Dad
forced us to respect every bloody bit of that culture.
We could not use this hand because it was disrespectful.
When the mosque was when the prayers akbah prayer was
going out, we would have to stop and show our respect.
Even as ten year olds, we couldn't show our shoulders.
(18:41):
We would cover our shoulders and that was how we
showed respect in a Mulslom nation. I look at the
opposite now in Western nations, where there is almost no
respect shown, in fact, the complete opposite. There's no embracing
of our culture, no shows of respect. It in a
lot of places is a takeover. And you look at Spain,
you look at elements of Europe, a lot of parts
of your own country. It's terrifying. Dearborn Michigan, just yesterday,
(19:06):
you know that that's not what we were doing in
a Muslim majority nation. It's the complete opposite.
Speaker 3 (19:12):
Well again, I think this is the fact that the
West has been very successful and that the West understands.
Speaker 4 (19:19):
You know. The great thing.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
I love the suity analogy, you know of saying the
guy when the widows were burned on the funeral powers
in India, the English viceroid turned around and said, that's fine,
and you can carry on burning them. But what we're
going to do is we're going to build the gallows
next to it, and anyone who puts her on the
fire is going to hang them. It is an English
sense of moderation and an Anglo's sense of moderation, which
(19:42):
is we're not here to mark and ridicule Islam in
a majority Muslim country. But in the same way as
when you visit our country, we ask you to respect
our traditions, our value z heritage in our culture. But
the difference and the difficulty with sort of the sort
of is Lamo fascist is socialist movement is that that's
(20:03):
not enough for them. You have to utterly submit. And
you know that's not that's not gonna work, because you
can see in England, and I'm sure you're seeing in Australia,
and certainly there will be seeing in America that if
you do submit, you have submitted, You've submitted, and once
you submit, you're not coming out of that again.
Speaker 4 (20:21):
So I would rather fight and die for my culture.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
But first of all, I'd rather I'd like to have
a discussion before we before people have.
Speaker 4 (20:29):
To take that glove.
Speaker 2 (20:31):
It's much more pleasant than dying for it. Fingers crossed,
you won't have to go that far. Lawrence. Thank you
so so much for your voice, for your fight, for
your passion, and I cannot wait to watch you back
on the big screen where you belong as well. I
have no doubt that that party of your life is
coming back as well.
Speaker 4 (20:48):
I really I have hope. So to you. Thank you
a lovely speech. You
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