Christine Caine: The Kitchen Table Where Everything Changed

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Life audio. We've made what people did to us or
said about us bigger than what Jesus did for us
at Calvary. The centrality of the Gospel is that I'm
not minimizing pain or suffering ever, but I am saying
what Jesus did for me at Calvary is bigger than
what anyone did to me here on earth.

Speaker 2 (00:34):
You're about to join my conversation with my very special guest,
Christine King. Christine is an accomplished speaker. She speaks all
around the world. She's a prolific author. She's the founder
of an organization called eight twenty one that helps people
who have been traffic and she does so much more.

(00:54):
I think of her as a force of nature, and
the best use of that term. Christine is funny, She's biblical,
she's insightful, and she has so much to say. I
think you're going to really love this conversation, So let's
dive in. You know, you and I have something common.
I don't think either one of us was planned. We'll

(01:16):
use that word in quotes, because our lives were planned
by God. But my mother was buried in divorce seven times,
and she had a fling with some guy in Long
Beach and she got pregnant. So she married this other
guy and put his name on my birth certificate. And
for the first thirty years of my life, I thought
that he was my biological father. I could not understand

(01:39):
why he was so cold to me. After I went
and reconnected with him later and then I realized why
he wasn't my biological dad. So that's kind of a
weird discovery to realize that I'm the product of a
one night stand. But you know, the Bible says we're
fearfully we're wonderfully made. When we were in the womb,
the Lord knew us. And I think of your story

(02:01):
to tell us about how because you made a discovery.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
Yeah, so you know I'm Greek, and so if you've
seen my big fact Greek wedding, that is my big
fact Greek life. So you know in Australia they really
use Yeah, I've got windecks in everywhere.

Speaker 2 (02:16):
Real.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
It's so real that my daughter is here with us
in this interview, she would testify her mum's always squirting
on every aliment.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
It's hilarious.

Speaker 1 (02:25):
You know you came in earlier and you said, I
think I might have a mesquita, But I was going
to get my index out. But you know, so I
grew up in it. I mean, you've got to think
staunch Greek orthodox household. And in the nineteen sixties, nineteen seventies,
you know, I was the whole situation with women and
Greek women was very, very different in Australia then, and
so being the daughter of Greek immigrants, there were some

(02:47):
challenges anyway, growing.

Speaker 2 (02:49):
Up now with these your adoptive parents.

Speaker 1 (02:51):
Yes, but I didn't know that.

Speaker 2 (02:52):
So you've got to but biologically Greek, yes.

Speaker 1 (02:55):
As I found out down the track. When I had that,
I was a discussion. So I grew up what you
would think of the normal immigrants experience in Australia. Two brothers,
one older, one younger, but also not my own immediate family.
But there were people that my parents allowed into our
home that they should have been able to trust and

(03:16):
were very untrustworthy. So I was, for about a decade
the victim of childhood sexual abuse, and so that I
was already carrying a lot of shame and a lot
of pain, a lot of anger from that and also
from being marginalized.

Speaker 2 (03:31):
We were very.

Speaker 1 (03:31):
Ridiculed for being kind of the immigrant kids in a
very Australia at that time was very racist against Greeks
and Italians. That's wit we had and had mass migration
Greeks and Italians. So I was always on the margins.
You know, English is my second language, Greek is my
first language. So imagine all this is happening. And now
at thirty three, my brother, my older brother, George, calls

(03:53):
me and he said, Chris, I've got a letter from
the government and it says that I've been adopted. Now, Greg,
when do you tell me that? At first, I started laughing,
because you know, when you're growing up, you say to
your siblings, we're not related, like you know, you're a
I mean. But anyway, Then I went, Georgie, don't be ridiculous.
The Department of Community Services. They've obviously sent this letter

(04:14):
to the wrong person. And I go call them. Anyway.
About ten minutes later, he calls me back, sobbing, and
he goes, Chris, it's true. They told me the name
of my biological mother, my biological father. You know, when
I was born, when I was immunized. He goes, I'm
going to go home and confront mom. Now my dad
had died when I was nineteen. So here's my Greek
Orthodox mom, you know, home alone. She's obviously had this

(04:37):
family secret for thirty five years. And I don't know
if you know much about Greeks, but they're crazy. So
I'm thinking by my brother, no, they really am very volatile,
like you know, so my brother really could have I
just thought, I don't know where this is going to go.
I jump in my cart, go to my mom's house,
and I literally walked in the front door at the

(04:58):
minute that my brother is giving my mom this piece
of paper. My mom takes it. I watch the blood
drain out of her face and she starts. She goes, George,
you know, I'm so sorry. The adoption laws in Australia
in the nineteen sixties they were all closed adoptions, so
we never thought you'd find out. And before your dad died,
I promised him I'd never tell you. And you know,

(05:21):
it's everything you're imagining. You know, my brother's crying, my
mother's crying. I go to the kitchen to make food.
My mom walks in about ten minutes later and she
goes Chris dinner in Greek. Of course, Christina, since we're
telling the truth today, do you want to know the
whole truth? And in that moment I turned round. I
don't even know why I said this to a greg.
I go, I've been adopted too. And so here I am,

(05:44):
two weeks out from my thirty third birthday, and my
mom's weeping and she just goes, you know, yes. So
that day my thirty five year old brother found out
he was adopted from one set of parents. I found
out I was adopted from another set of parents. And
my younger brother was the only biological child. But the
three of us had grown up thinking that we were

(06:05):
biologically connected. And back then in Australia you could only
adopt same religion, same nationality. So my mother, which we've
since found out she was Greek, we know who she is.
It says her name, the father's name. It just as
the supposed father purported father, so we don't know it

(06:26):
was a fifty five year old married man.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (06:29):
And you know. So the fact is that I found
out that at thirty three. But I do want to
say this part. I had come to faith in Christ
about a decade before that, a church in a warehouse
in the back of Sydney, Australia, and You've got to understand.
Back then a big deal for a Greek Orthodox girl
to go to a Protestant church. I'd never been in one.

(06:50):
You know, it was a big deal. But you know,
I say I got safe, saved. So I was one
of those I was so broken, and because I was
so broken because of my past, thank God I had
someone that began to disciple me. And what she did sold.
A woman at the time said, Christine, You're going to
have to replace the lies you believe about yourself that

(07:12):
the abuses had said to me, that the kids at
school that had ridiculed me with the truth of the
Word of God. Now I didn't even realize the power
of that, greg But I'm going to get back into
my mother's kitchen because so for ten years, and I've
got to be honest, probably for the first year, I
didn't even believe. She would make me write out scriptures
like I am the Righteousness of God in Christ Jesus.

(07:33):
Now I never believe that because I feel so dirty,
so broken because of my past. I am fearfully you
quoted that I am fearfully and wonderfully made, And she'd
make me. I mean, this is old school. There was
no Internet, no phones, you know, So it was you
put it on, stick it notes and stick it on
your mirror. And she would say, I want you to
quote the scripture and the verse every day. I want

(07:55):
you to look in the mirror. And yeah, I mean,
of course, it was like, you know, we are you
are fearfully and wonderfully mate. But she would say, I
want you to put Christine. You might like put my
name in that. So Christine, you are fearfully and wonderfully made. Christine,
you are the righteousness of God in Christ Jesus. Therefore, Christine,
there is no condemnation. You know, she would make me
do that. I didn't even realize the power of that

(08:18):
until here we are now a decade later. I find
out shockingly, I mean my mother's kitchen. There's no harvest
worship team, there's no preacher standing there. I mean my
mom's kitchen. My brother is a mess having a breakdown
finding out, I mean, just finding this news out. My
mother has lost, you know, just everything. She was weeping

(08:40):
and I mean sobbing when I say sobbing, and Greg,
this is you know, the Lord's my witness. I reached
across the kitchen table because my Mum was such a mess,
and I went, I grabbed her hands and I went, Mum,
it's okay. And literally, he's a decade of renewing my
mind by the word of God. What came out of
my mother? Go Mum, it's okay? Because before I was

(09:02):
formed in my mother's womb, and I said to her,
who is ever a wound that was? Mum? It doesn't
matter who's ever wound that was. God knew me. God
needed together my innermost and this is what was coming
out of me and Greg that day. Every fact that
I thought to be true about my life changed, my background,
my name, my history, and to this day, I mean,
we're recording this. I don't I really don't know. It

(09:23):
was either the result of a rape. I don't even
know if I was the result of a one night
stand or an ongoing adulterous affair. But I do know
that I'm God's workmanship and I'm recreated in Christ Jesus
for good works that God prepared beforehand. So you and
I are so similar. Like you, you know you were
the result of a one night stand. I don't quite
know what happened, but I do know that beyond all that,

(09:46):
a sovereign God intentionally wanted us to be on the
earth for such a time as this.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
That's right. And all of these things, you know, made
you into the person you are. You know, God can
cause all things to work together for good to those
that love God. There are bad things that happened to us.
What happened to you was a child is a horrible thing.
But despite that horrible thing, it caused an iron to

(10:12):
enter your soul. It changed you, It affected you, and
now you use that instead of something that cripples you,
you use it as a tool to help others who
are experiencing something similar to it, you know, And I
think that's very important. You know, we have a choice
as to what we do with pain. It can make
us better or better. Yeah, and I just I interviewed

(10:34):
Chucks from Dall and you think he had the perfect life,
raise in the Christian home, and it was a Christian home.
But it's funny. He had an older brother named Orville,
who was very accomplished piano players, scientists. He had a
very outgoing sister named Lucy who was kind of the
light of every room. And the parents favored them and
they literally said to Chuck, you were a mistake. And

(10:58):
he is a little five year old boy, and he
didn't know what that meant. And so he went through
life kind of feeling unloved, unappreciated. They didn't get the attention.
And yes, but the Lord allowed it, he allowed it
to meet Chucks Wndallen to the man he became. And
I think of David. Remember Jesse, his father. When he
was summoned by the prophet Samuel to find the next

(11:19):
king of Isil, he trotted out his seven sons, the
magnificent seven Q theme song here right, so, and Samuel's
looking at the Lord saying, that's not the one. That's
not the one. He sees Elia, who was the most
impressive of the lot. Hey, that's got to be the one. No,
that's not the one. Then he realizes this isn't the one.
You have any other children, and Jesse reluctantly acknowledges David.

(11:43):
Incomes David bounding from the field, and of course that's
the Lord's chosen. David later writes in the Psalms, and
my father and mother for seek me. The Lord will
take me up. So I think of you, I think
of myself. I think of Chuck's o'dall people that were
neglected that God chose. Yeah, and then He's gifted you

(12:06):
with this incredible as I listen to you speak, and
I've listened to you speak quite a few times, Christine,
and I'm so blessed by your insights and and I
love the way I don't want to see you bring
the Word of God to life, because the Word of
God brings you to life. But there's a lot of
people that manage to make the Bible boring and you're

(12:27):
not one of those people, thank God. And I love
how you you know, you do your theological homework, your tech,
you get, you understand, you know the context and all
the things. But then you apply and you apply with warmth,
with vulnerability, and with a lot of humor. And I
want to ask you about that because I have a

(12:48):
theory about that, but I want to see if it's
true of you. Did you develop this humor going back
to your childhood. Were you always kind of a person
that found humor because sometimes people find humor in the
darkest places as a coping mechanism.

Speaker 1 (13:03):
Yeah, and I think so, because how else do you
You don't even have language when you're younger. So I
found I had to find the funny side. And I
think part of that too is culturally Greeks we tend
to be like loud and funny and Australians. Australians by
and large, we don't take ourselves too seriously. That's true,

(13:24):
and I think so growing up in Australia, obviously being
born in Australia. I really think that's a huge part
of it. Like sometimes you look at British humor or
you know, on TV, and it's very dry and you
just don't Yeah, I love you Americans, but you take
yourselves very seriously, whereas we we just kind of, I
don't know, it's sort of that we just like have

(13:46):
a go, we love the underdog. We're gonna find a
funny side. I think that's all part of it. And
as you were talking then, you know, I was thinking of,
you know, doctor Swindle, and I'm thinking of the story.
In my life, I always feel like Joseph, you know,
in Genesis, chapter fifty, verse twenty, and he said to
his brothers, you meant this for evil against me. And
I've got to say to you, Pastor, every time we

(14:09):
put a trafficker in jail or rescue a young child
or a woman. I do think to myself, devil, I
bet you wish you left me alone, because you know
you meant this for evil. But God meant it for
this very purpose to save many people alive. And I
feel there's a redemption in it. But of course I
would never wish that on anyone. I don't wish. You know,
some people say, well, are you glad that happened to you, Christine?

(14:32):
Of course I'm not glad, but I no longer spend
my whole life going I wish that didn't happen. If
that didn't happen, then I would be better. Like I think,
so much of the narrative in this culture is well,
my life would be flourishing if there was no pain
or suffering in my past, And I'm going no, no.
The story of redemption is despite the pain and suffering

(14:54):
in my past, God literally can redeem, and what the
enemy stole, I don't feel in my life I missed anything.
So when people go, do you wish, well, I no
longer I couldn't sit here with you and go I
wish that never happened. Well, I would never wish for
it to happen. I want everyone to be clear, I'm
not saying ever abuses. Okay, I'd never wish for it

(15:17):
to happen, but God made meaning out of it. And
I don't truly spend one moment thinking if only that
didn't happen. I'm like, oh, no, despite what happened, look
what the Lord has done. Right, And that's the testimony
to me, that's the gospel. I thought, that's what we're
talking about this side of me to people. You know
you are Christine Kane, You're an exception. I don't, no, No,

(15:39):
this is called the normal Christian life. I once was broken,
Jesus saved me, delivered me. I thought that was the
message of the gospel.

Speaker 2 (15:48):
Greg, Yeah, well you're like a brand plucked out of
the fire. And you know, and I think that there's
a misunderstanding of Romans eight twenty eight. I'd like to
hear your thoughts on it. But you know, we know
what it says. We know that we know that all
things work together for good, that those love God another
call according to his purpose. Now, the way sometimes it's
interpreted is no matter what happens, God won't make it

(16:11):
into something good. But that's not actually what the verse says.
We know God causes all things to work together for good.
As scripture says, all things are your servants. So our
son died in an automobile accident eighteen years ago. It
was the worst moment of our life. If I could
change my own history, would I change it? Yes? If

(16:31):
I could have my son back with me today, would
I bring him back again? Yes? Now, having said that,
do I miss him every day? Of course? Could I
say that anything good has come despite that tragedy? I
have to say yes. Would I say that it changed
me and made me perhaps more compassionate or more willing

(16:53):
to take steps of faith and do things that would
not have done otherwise. I would have to say yes.
And I think we've got to bring in Romans eight
twenty nine, eight twenty eight. We know that all things
work together for good. Love God verse twenty nine, for
whom he did four No, he also did predestine to
be conformed into the image of his own dear son.

(17:13):
So God's ultimate goal is not to give us neat, tidy,
little lives like a Hallmark special, but rather to make
us more like Jesus. What are your thoughts on Roman
d twenty.

Speaker 1 (17:24):
Oh Let's I can't add anything to what you just said,
I mean, and I wish that would be amplified to
a generation because the narrative, you know, we're recording this
in twenty twenty six, definitely anywhere I travel, and truly
particularly here, but in many nations around the world, what
I call a victim narrative that is destroying a generation

(17:47):
to me, and I think even in the church, the
gospel is exactly what you just preached. It's despite that,
because I'm not looking for a prosperity gospel that says
everything this side of eternity is going to be awesome,
and God's your sugar daddy and going to give you
whatever you want and whatever you lost, He's going to

(18:07):
give you ten times better and it's going to be
awesome things whenever the goal, because I'm not saying abundant
life is in things. Abundant life is in Christ. So
I'm saying, despite what maybe the enemy has stolen and
the pain and the suffering which this side of eternity,
this is we live in a fallham world, that you
can still flourish and fulfill purpose. And Jesus, the miracle

(18:31):
is that you as a father. You know, I think
you and Kathy, that there is no greater loss of
parent could ever have than to lose a child. Of
all the unnatural things this side of eternity, that to me,
no one is supposed to bury their children. It's always
should be the other way around. So the fact that
you are living breathing testimony and Kathy, who I love
with a passion, says more about a resurrected savior than

(18:54):
anything else that you guys could get out of bed
every day. We let alone do everything you've done to
the glory of God and see people saved. You cannot
be a lost person and not think there has to
be a God. How else does that happen. You either
do that or you cope with how most people cope with,
which is having more of that drink or popping that
extra pill or getting divorced or whatever, because that would

(19:16):
be the natural repercussions of such a tragedy. So there's
got to be something supernatural. To me that doesn't make
anything worth the It says we live in a fallen
world and one day Jesus is going to come back
and renew all things, and we're trying to be a
light in the midst of that darkness. We are declaring
his praises. We're not saying everything's perfect. That doesn't mean

(19:38):
God's bless me. The blessing of God is I'm still
here and bearing fruit in season and out, and declaring
the word in season and out. That shows that there's
a God, a resurrected King. To me, more than a
new house or a new car, you know, it's that
there's peace, and there's the fact that you're at peace,
You've got joy. And I try to say to people

(20:00):
at the moment, there is such an outrage that somehow
goes If the structures right, if the system's not right,
if every if your parents didn't do everything right, no
wonder you're dysfunctional. Or if you didn't have the right schooling,
or you didn't grow up in the right neighborhood, or
you didn't have the So I could say, well, on
all fronts, you could tick every box. I was born wrong.

(20:25):
I was I went literally I was raised in the
poorest zip code in my state, the third poorest like
socioeconomic demographic, lowest in all of Australia. So I didn't
grow up in the right neighborhood, I didn't go to
the right school, I wasn't born into the right family,
I didn't even know my name, and I was sexually abused.
I mean, t tick tick tick tick. If I bought

(20:47):
into the narrative that said, because of so much injustice
and abuse and pain, you can never flourish. And Christine,
if everything was different in your past, or if you
were raised in a different neighborhood or went to a
different school, or had different parents, then only then could
you fly. That to me is its own kind of

(21:07):
prosperity gospel. And I'm saying that the gospel is despite
Like You've got someone like a Daniel that was literally
trafficked as a fifteen year old. I mean he was
forced labor. He was taken out of Jerusalem, had to
walk whatever four or five hundred miles or nine hundred
miles to Babylon and probably in chains as a slave.

(21:27):
He was a slave, and then he was indoctrinated for
all of those years and forced labor in the king's court.
I mean, we make it all sound so romantic, but
he was taken as a fifteen year old, served under
all those administrations for seventy years in exile. But he
was actually a forced labor slave, if you're looking at
it and so and yet did he fulfill his purpose? Absolutely?

(21:48):
And Joseph who was taken and sold into slavery and
falsely accused in a prison and sometimes I'm my point
for that is, if you're waiting for the system to
get better, to think that only then God can bless
you and you can flourish, you're not reading the right gospel,
because the gospel is that desp everything God can and

(22:09):
can actually give you well obviously save you and deliver you,
and you could fulfill your purpose. God's so aware of
our circumstances. So if I need my circumstances to change
to flourishing, We're not called flourishing. I'm talking about the
peace of God, the joy of the Lord being our strength,
you know, the purpose of God being fulfilled. Are we

(22:30):
saying Paul didn't fulfill his purpose because he was in
a prison, or because he was beaten, or because he
was shipwrecked. I mean, we could use that whole argument
and go, well, you know, because of the trauma in
his life, he couldn't fulfill his purpose. And I'm saying
despite the trauma, the testimony is he did. That's the
testimony of a resurrected king. Somehow we have almost brought

(22:54):
into the narrative of the world, and unfortunately we've made
what people did to us or said about us bigger
than what Jesus did for us at calvil And I
think that church, even in our preaching and teaching the
centrality of the Gospel is that I'm not minimizing pain
or suffering ever, but I am saying what Jesus did

(23:16):
for me at Calvary is bigger than what anyone did
to me here on earth.

Speaker 2 (23:20):
Well, you know, Christine, you have a gift of evangelism. Clearly,
I think you're an evangelist. You said that yourself. Yeah,
And I don't meet a lot of evangelists, but I
know and when I meet one, and you're one, right,
you know. And some of many evangelists I know are preachers,
but also some evangelists I bet are just regular folks
working whatever job they work, but they have a gift

(23:43):
and a boldness to proclaim the Gospel. Clearly you have that,
and it seems to me that that's something that's lacking
in the church today. You don't see just clear evangelism,
clear opportunities for people to come to Christ. You know,
we've had people come to our crusades, and I bet
people say what you do is like so simple, it's like, yeah,

(24:05):
some purpose, you know, that's we did that. That's intentional actually,
because you know, I think you know this as you
travel the world, that we are in a completely biblically
illiterate culture. When I started preaching over fifty years ago,
I wouldn't say people were biblically literate, but let's just
say they knew more than they probably know now, because

(24:27):
you know, we if I said Adam and Eve in
the garden or Noah's Ark, they would understand what I'm
speaking of. Today, I find I have to define everything
as I speak and not assume my listener understands my terminology,
even phrases like you need to accept Christ, you need
to repent. That's great, say those things, but I don't

(24:48):
assume they even know what that means. Absolutely, have you
found you have to as your preaching changed more recently
than maybe the way it was back when you started out.

Speaker 1 (24:59):
I think I love it you said that, because I
agree that would be My predominant gift is that Angelus,
and it undergoes everything I do. I mean, you know,
wherever I am. I know I speak at lots of conferences,
but the whole purpose, you know, an evangelist jobber.

Speaker 2 (25:14):
I just want to see when you come you are like,
I don't see this of many people. You're a force
of nature in the best sense of that phrase. You're
just like you bring energy and passion and excitement. I
find that most evangelists also have a gift of exhortation. Yes,
you know, like a teacher tells you how to do it.

(25:34):
A person with the gift of exhortation makes you want
to do it exactly. And I think there's something about
the way you speak that people listening. I can do that.
I want to do that. So you motivate believers, but
then you clarify the gospel to non believers.

Speaker 1 (25:49):
Well totally. Well, I think that's obviously you've built this
church and have all the crusades, you know, So you
think an evangelist, primarily our job is to try and
equip the saints.

Speaker 2 (25:59):
To do the work of the ministrys.

Speaker 1 (26:00):
Well, so that's how I know I am one because
that I'm activating even more people than I'm reaching in
that and it needs to be both together. So some
people may have a be able to give an alticle
and have a preaching gift of an evangelist, but I
think a true evangelist, no matter what we say, we're
going to make everyone want to win their friends to Christ.
Because it's just you know, we could be teaching something

(26:22):
out of Leviticus, and I'm going to make you want
to win your friend. It's just who we are. It's
going to come round to us. But I say that
of you. I said to my daughter as we were
driving for the interview, I said, oh, you're about to
me who I think. And she's here in the room
is probably today's greatest living evangelists. And I go, Catherine,
there's so few, truly, which is very sad because, and

(26:42):
I said, the most unwonted job in the church in
the twenty fist century appears to be evangelism. Either the
church itself is rolling as eyes. We embarrass people, it's like,
and I go, it's always the case. And I said,
because at the end of the day, where we're not
going to compromise, I said, we are so loving and

(27:02):
will reach everyone. But the centrality of the of Christ,
in the exclusivity of Jesus I said, I said, you
won't see us weigh in on a whole lot more
debates out there, because things come and go and cultural
issues come and go. And I said, we love people.
And I said, but the exclusivity of Christ as the
only way to God. I said, unfortunately, that makes even

(27:23):
a lot of Christians in twenty twenties 're very nervous.
And I said, so what they do is cringe and
I don't like us to do that. And I go,
so we will be unapologetic, and I go, that's how
you know a real evangelist is because we won't ever
compromise on that. People will misunderstand us on everything else
and think either we're too grace filled or we're not
speaking out enough about issues.

Speaker 2 (27:43):
I said, very true.

Speaker 1 (27:45):
We can't win. We can't win.

Speaker 2 (27:46):
We're bridge builders, you know the thing I mean, we
will stand up. You know, it's funny. We'll want to
build a bridge to a non believer, but sometimes we
confuse a believer because they don't get what we're doing.
But it's like, how can I win a person to
Christ if I don't start a conversation with totally Who
was the first evangelist in the New testament woman at
the well, how is she reached? Jesus entered her world.

(28:09):
He didn't condemn her, He just talked to her. Hey,
you know, if you knew who you were talking to,
you'd ask him and he'd give you water that's alive. Well,
were you going to get this water? And back and
forth they go. But immediately after she realizes he's Messiah,
she goes and tells the people in the town. And
it's interesting because it says many believe because of her testimony,

(28:29):
because they knew her. She had a reputation, she was married,
a divorce five times, I was living with the dude,
the Mochian counter Christ. But I think, well, we know
that lady. We know they probably didn't call her a lady.
We know that girl, we know a reputation. If she believes,
there has to be something to this, so you know,
it's interesting she went with that passion. And I'm not

(28:51):
saying her like the woman at the well, but I'm saying,
you understand, as an evangelist, you have to build a bridge.

Speaker 1 (28:57):
Yeah, there's no other way. I think. I mean, dozens
of countries every year, so you know, and I've preached
in Pakistan, I could go on and and done evangelistic
big events like you know, you just had a couple
of weeks ago here int Anaheim. And so we were
eighty five thousand people in Pakistan. And so imagine I'm
a woman and I'm wearing the appropriate dress because I'm there,

(29:20):
and the same in Katatoo, and I'm wearing the appropriate
dress and publicly outdoor proclaiming the gospel. And I believe
that's why the Lord's allowed my story to go around
the world.

Speaker 2 (29:29):
Because do you usually start with your story?

Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yes, especially in an evangelist.

Speaker 2 (29:36):
Is a great order to a great thinker, a great intellect.
But almost always, he said, let me tell you by
what happened to me at the Damasca stroke.

Speaker 1 (29:43):
Absolutely, you've got a bridge here. You connect with where
they are. And I'm always greg And this is why
people like us will always be misunderstood. It doesn't matter
how theologically trained we may be, because we are always
going to try to minister to the back row. We
are not going to try to impress the front row.
Very true, and so I think when people like I
want to be a great preacher, I'm trying to impress
the front row. I'm like you already know the Gospel.

(30:04):
I'm trying to that person that's just come in and
has either you know, doesn't know who she woke up
next to the day before the night before. I'm going
I want her to know the love and the grace
of God, like the Samaritan woman who actually went back
and said to the guys in a village, let me
tell you about a man who told me everything I've
ever done. So the Gospel doesn't shame, but it shines

(30:26):
a light. He's telling me everything and there's forgiven me,
like there's not this shame that comes with it. And
I think a lot of our preaching it's so shame
driven because it's not true gospel evangelism, which isn't going
to shame someone into a decision. It's gonna awake a while,
and the Holy Spirit can do it this life. I
can number one, I need forgiveness, yes, and I can't

(30:49):
awaken that in someone. Only the Holy Spirit of God
can do that. But if you preach the Word faithfully,
God will do that. So I think a lot of
times is we've so forgotten the last or we think
accommodating the lost and becoming like the lost is how
you win the lost and you know people will offer
say to me, I can't believe how many people get
saved because Chris, you're like unapologetic. I know, I'm so

(31:10):
hardcoret in love, like, but I'm in it but not
of it. So what has happened to the other side
of the church? Is there of it but not in it?
And so it's like we're exactly the same values as
the world and performance indicators as the world, in fact,
doing a whole lot of things as the world, except
we're not in the world making a difference. But to truly,

(31:33):
you know, to truly see the light go on in
the dark places, Number one, you've got to be in
the dark places. So you've got to go where people
are unwilling to go. They don't know what job is,
or what job is, or what you know they would know.
So me giving, you know, an exegetical sermon on the
levitical priestthood is not really going to reach them.

Speaker 2 (31:55):
I would like to hear it anyway, because I think.

Speaker 1 (31:57):
You might be able to turn it around. I find
a way I had to do the other day church,
the Daughters of Zelophah had at numbers twenty six thirty
six turned that into the greatest evangelistic servant. I'm going
to take that on the road anyway. I'm just say, like, truly,
who would have thought those five daughters? But I say
all that to go. Of course, I'm looking at every

(32:18):
text through the lens of Christ and have risen ascended
Christ that's coming back again. I take very seriously. And
you know, people talk about how we look at the text.
I truly understand that we're living between the two advents
of Christ. So every church era, where do they where
are we located on the Kingdom calendar. Well, Jesus obviously

(32:42):
has you know, risen and ascended, seeing at the right
hand of the Father. He's coming back. So my job
is to point towards the fact that he's coming back,
not in a weird way that's going to cause people
to abdicate their responsibility here on earth. And I've proven
that I'm sixty years old. We've run a global anti
trafficking organization, extremely influential and effective by the Race of

(33:05):
God around the world, worked with major governments all across
the world. So I'm busy here on Earth. I'm trying
to bring a taste of Heaven to Earth. It hasn't
made me well that does.

Speaker 2 (33:17):
I think the most of the next life, do the most,
And that's the thing. And so what you're saying is
I'm doing things to help people to get them, you know,
have transformation of their life. However, I believe Jesus is coming.
So I'm not, you know, out of touch with the reality.
But I think this is important because this is a teaching,

(33:37):
uh sometimes called eschatology that has kind of fallen out
of favor in the church today. And when I first
came to Christ during the Jesus Movement in the seventies,
you heard a lot of messages Jesus is coming. We
had bumper stickers on our car, Jesus is coming, or
in case of rapture, car will be unmanned. You know.

(33:57):
But you know, and so we looked with us fifty
years ago. You guys missed it. Well, okay, but you
know we're fifty years closer. What do we say supposed
to do? You know? Jesus keep parables about that, but
occupied till they come, be busy until they come, be
doing the work of the Lord until they come. That
seems to motivate you as well.

Speaker 1 (34:17):
Well, totally, I'm in Paul right, be steadfast, immovable, always
abounding in the work of the Lord, knowing that in
the Lord your labor is never in vain. So I'm like,
of course that's what I'm going to do. But anyone
that is sort of cynical about eschatological teaching, I'm like, truly,
Jesus didn't seem to have a problem with you know,
he's got his discourses Paul in first and Second Thessalonians,

(34:39):
the whole Book of Revelation. I'm like, I'd say there's
a fair chunk of the New Testament that's very geared
towards that, and you can't deny it. And I'm not
saying people that say you're so heavenly minded you're no
earthly good, Well then you're not really heavenly minded.

Speaker 2 (34:54):
Well, I know people are so earthing, then maybe they're
not heaven And that's the.

Speaker 1 (34:58):
I think that's the flip side of this generation, is
that we somehow think and now you're really getting into
what I'm thinking. I think, you know, when the Reformation happened,
and Luther's like, hang on a minute, good works can't
save you, you know, and indulgences aren't going to save you.
I think now, especially in the last decade or so,

(35:19):
we're sort of replacing one good work. If I can
do enough good works, especially ones that are very socially acceptable.
If I can do that's what's going to save me
enough social you know, justice see good works. And I'm like,
y're if you think it's all going to get fixed
before Jesus got there'd be no reason for him to
come back. That guy he's going to split. He is

(35:39):
coming back, however you think that's going to happen, okay,
but he is coming back to renew all things, and
there is a judgment that is coming. Like, I don't
I don't know what to say to you. It's in
the books, So you thinking me not saying it because
you're all worried that well for fifty years ago, you'll
try to scare people into heaven. And you know the
if you the bus the youth camp story, you know

(36:02):
the bus hit a wall on the way home and
everyone died. Are you ready to meet Jesus? That's not
a bad question to us people. I go, so, I
don't know, why are you being cynical? So I think
what some people have taken is a few things that
perhaps in themselves maybe didn't resonate with them, or they
feel hurt them in evangelical culture and want to throw

(36:23):
the baby out with the bathwater. And I'm like, y'all,
that doesn't mean these things are not true. Will for
every man has it been destined to die once and
then the judgment. I didn't write that the writer to
the Hebrews. It's in the scripture that we will stand
before the judgment throne of Christ. It will happen, and
will we give an account, even us that are saved
for our life here on earth. Yes are their eternal rewards? Yes?

(36:46):
Do you want of you? Perhaps so me not talking
about it because some people, you know, were erran us
in their teaching. Well, you could go throughout all of
church history. I go at different times in church history
there was different emphasis that were right, wrong or indifferent.
But if we're preaching, are teaching the whole Council of
God for us that are living this side of the

(37:10):
cross and pointing people towards Jesus, I'd say we order
focus there. And churches and leaders that are scared to
do that either because of the backlash to what sort
of has happened in Evangelicalism are doing it. I'm not sure.
Then we can say we really love people. Here's the deal.
I've drunk the kool aid. I believe it. And so

(37:33):
I remember once in Australia before we moved to America,
there was a major convention of a particular denomination and
the convention center was full, and Australia's most famous atheist,
and he was a writer in the newspaper The Australian,
and everybody would know his name, most famous atheists in Australia.
Very intelligent, like on all the TV shows, you know

(37:56):
all that. Very smart. But he stood up, he came.
They invited him to the conference for a special sort
of Q and a thing. But he said to all
the pastors in that room in christ saying this, he
goes one of the main reasons that I've not yet.
He didn't say converted, but he said, why I don't
really believe what you're all talking about? He said, because

(38:19):
I don't think you really believe it. Because if you
believed what you tell me, you believe about this resurrected
Jesus that's supposed to be coming back again, I wouldn't
be living how you're living. There would be a whole
different urgency, but the fact. And he literally said that.
It was like a mic drop in this arena of
pastors because he said, no, I don't really believe it,
because I don't think you believe it, and so wow,

(38:42):
I could be wrong, but at least you go, well,
she was sincerely wrong. She sincerely drank the kool aid.
And believe that there is a heaven, there is a hell,
that Jesus did die for our sins on the cross,
and that Jesus was buried and he rose again, and
he ascended and he is seated at the right hand
the Father, and he is coming back. We will give
an account for our life. I actually really believe that stuff.

(39:04):
And it's not like I'm trying to scare anyone into it.
I love them so much. Yeah, I want them to
go to heaven.

Speaker 2 (39:11):
That's right.

Speaker 1 (39:11):
Well, and people say, Chris, that's old school. I used
to think that was the gospel grade.

Speaker 2 (39:15):
Yea, yeah, old school. You know. In first Jime, he
that has this hope, that is the hope of the
Lord's return, purifies himself even as he is spirit. So
I think if we're walking with God sort of like
when we were kids. You know, maybe we get in
trouble and our mother would warn us, just wait to
your father get some so we lived in fear until
he got there. But if we're good little boys and

(39:38):
girls and didn't do anything wrong, we couldn't wait for
daddy to get home. Chris, I didn't have a daddy.
I'm just trying this analogy, you know. So I think
if we're walking with God, we look forward to us
return and like John, we say even so coming with Jesus.
But if we are like, oh, I don't know, you know,
you know, I don't you know because you're living wrong,
or maybe I didn't want to talk about that, that

(40:00):
give me almost a litmus test of where you're at spiritually.
I agree, you know, so we should focused on that again.
So let me shift gears. I don't even really need
to follow any questions. You're someone just seeing it easy
to talk to. But what is the hardest prayer you've
ever prayed?

Speaker 1 (40:18):
You know? There came a point, I think somewhere around
twenty eighteen twenty nineteen, it was just obviously we're we're
on the front line when you think of sort of
you know, rescuing the victims, of human trafficking. You're you're
in darkness. For people that say they don't believe in
that there is a.

Speaker 3 (40:36):
Devil, all this is your organization. We've referenced Yes twenty one. Yes,
and you have offices all around the world, around the world. Yeah,
and the mission of A twenty one is what.

Speaker 1 (40:48):
Exactly well in a thing is to abolish slavery everywhere forever.
But it's we rescue the victims, we restore survivors, and
we do prevention and awareness. So now we just had
the World Cups, so a lot of the ads and
billboards that you've seen airports all around the world that
have been running with FIFA, we helped train a lot
of the stuff. We do a lot of prevention awareness,

(41:09):
We make films that help people realize stuff. And we
also have you know, after care facilities for the survivors
of traffickers, and we work with law enforcement around the
world to catch the perpetrators and then represent them legally.
So it's a holistic the whole thing. And so in
all of that, I always say, if you don't believe

(41:30):
that there is a devil and that there's evil, come
and work with me for one day and you'll very
quickly realize that there is evil on the earth. But
I remember that it was just this bombardment and I
couldn't catch a breath, and you know, just there was
a lot of disappointment and I felt, you know, just
a lot of attack. And I remember one night this

(41:51):
all gets to the hardest prayer. I came home and
nick my husband to relax. My husband watches shows like
movies on the Navy seals, and there was this with
each on. He just sits there and watches this stuff.
And I didn't know, of course, not being American, I
didn't know that there was this thing called Hell Week.

(42:14):
And okay, You're like, okay, So I come home, he's
watching this series called Hell Week. I'm thinking, like, what
is this? And then I was devastated. My female side
came on because I felt sorry for all these guys
because the whole purpose of hell Week is to break
them down emotionally, psychological. These guys don't sleep. The men

(42:35):
in charge are yelling at them like they're nothing. And
I didn't realize the whole goal was to ring the
bell in the middle of the so that if you're
going to break, break here, not out there. So okay.
So I'm like thinking they're very mean people. But anyway,
so my husband's like loving it. There was this one
scene where the guys jump out of the helicopter. I

(42:57):
think it was shot down here in San Diego. They
jump out of the helicopter. They have to swim like
a mile to shore and then they do their stuff.
But remember they haven't slept for a week, all the things.
And I remember this one thing that guy jumped out
and I started crying. And my husband goes Christine, like,
it's so rare that I would jump. I would cry
for a man jumping out of a helicopter. But I

(43:18):
said to me, you know, honey, I said, this is
how I think I feel. And by this stage, we've
been you know, I've been going since nineteen ninety full
time vocational ministry, and this was just a and it
was a crazy season anyway in the world at that time.
So you're running a global organization. There's so much going on.
And I said to him, I feel like that the

(43:43):
Lord's like, Okay, let's launch another mission, kind of another assignment,
whatever it might be. It could be with your kids,
it could be in any realm of life, and I said,
I know I can do it. I've got the muscle memory,
I've got the strength, I said, but for the first
time in my Christian life. And I think at that
point it was thirty plus years, you know, thirty eight years,
I said, I I don't know if I want to

(44:05):
because I know the cost, the difference. I go. You know,
when you're younger, you're like God, here I am, send me,
I'll go anywhere. I'll do anything, and then you increasingly
know the pain involved with each with each Yes, that's
the thing is I think when you're young and people say,
I just want to be a famous Christian, I want
to be a big you know, YouTube influencer. And I'm thinking,

(44:26):
you have no idea if you truly believe in spiritual
warfare and what's coming at you, if you're trying to
advance the Kingdom of God. And I said, I don't
know if I want to. And when you say the
hardest prayer it was that night with Nick deeply pavel
but the prayer of saying, help me to want to
get like to get my want back for want of

(44:48):
a better word, and you know we prayed, and you
know I'm loving you like here I am eight years later,
sitting here with you, still for a fire, still not
but I think that would be the closest day ever came.
And I said to him, you know, as long as
I don't do anything dramatic, you know, if I don't
have an sort of immoral immoral commit immorality or you know,

(45:09):
steal the money, or if I don't do anything big,
there's enough momentum with thirty odd years of ministry that
I could just cruise my way into heaven. Don't commit
any of the big sins and just cruise and I go,
and no one would ever know because they think, Chris,
you did so well all these years. You know, look
what you've done. And I've started crying. And this is

(45:30):
where I knew God was working. And it was just
Nick and I. Nobody on earth would have known. And
I said to him, I go, but Jesus would know.
Jesus would know that I wasn't all into the end.
And it was like something broke in that moment. And
then the Holy Spirit, as only he can do, did something.
But it was that okay, that to me was my

(45:52):
highest preyer.

Speaker 2 (45:52):
Well, I think you like a challenge, and you because
of your upbringing, You've been uniquely prepared to enter those challenges.
God has been preparing you for that moment, and I
it's so clear what you're doing is so unique because
I've never heard, well, I've never heard a story like
yours before, all of these elements of your childhood, your conversion,

(46:16):
then you're an evangelist, then you're a exhorder, and then
you're doing this ministry for people who have been trafficked,
and it's going all around the world. It's just such
an unusual combination of things. But it's you know, it's
what God has prepared you for, and it's we're a
better place for it. So you've mentioned your husband many times.

(46:38):
Did you see you're married thirty years, so you know
a lot of marriages don't make it that long. That's
a great accomplishment. So do you have any secrets or
things that maybe someone who's just gotten married could learn
from Chris and Nick about having because you spend all
this time together on their planes, hotel rooms, you're together constantly.

(47:02):
Give us a few takeaway truths from how to have
a good, strong marriage.

Speaker 1 (47:07):
There is no doubt Nick and I married. Obviously, we
love each other and loved each other, but even love
wouldn't have been enough in and of itself. We married
around purpose, the Kingdom of God. So purpose has kept
us for all these years. And there's you know, different
strokes for different folks, but for us, we were both

(47:30):
all in with Jesus before we ever met each other,
and so it was going to be all or nothing,
you know. And I think we realistically thought we were
going to be missionaries. We are, so we continue to
live on mission. But we probably thought in the more
traditional sense that we were going to go somewhere, probably
like you know, Bulgaria, Romania, Albania, and we're able to

(47:52):
serve that in a whole different way now. But so
for us, what has kept us it is Jesus. People
go yes, but and I'm like, no, yes, period of course,
because i think the more you're like Jesus, and I'm
not trying to be super spiritual, I'm just going so
the closer Nick and I are both with Jesus, surely

(48:15):
the fruit of the spirit would emanate more from our lives.
So we're nicer to each other. So there's more love,
there's more joy, there's more peace, there's more goodness, there's
more long suffering. What do you need for a good marriage?
Long suffering, self control, patience, goodness, kindness, I sound like
the fruit of the Spirit. So I figured the more
we're closer to I think we really complicate a lot
of this stuff. I say to people, I just be

(48:36):
a Christian. So it truly is help. That takes a
lot of the arguing and tension out. Are you still
going to have it? Yes, because we're humans and we're there.
But a lot of unnecessary conflict can actually be solved
if we're in the Word, if the joy of the
Lord truly is our strength, and we're in worship, because
then a lot of that business I'm not expecting from

(48:58):
Nick what I can only get from Jesus. That's a
good point, and I think that saves a lot of hassle.
And Nick's certainly not expecting from me he can only
get from Jesus. I mean, just because I might have
a platform or a visible ministry. Number one, he's the
head of our home and our family, so that that
has nothing to do with that. But there is no competition,

(49:20):
because what are we in competition with. We're both under
Jesus serving the Lord. You know what I'm saying and so,
and in our home I always say, and I say
this to the woman, I go, if a man truly
does love his wife as Christ loves the church, so
that's the cavet. If he really does, I think it's
natural for a woman to want to I do like,

(49:43):
come in. I'm like, awesome, I'll follow you as you
follow Christ. That's great. The caveet is, of course, as
Paul road in Ephesians, that a managed to love his
wife as Christ loves a church. I think there's no
better deal. I think, you know, we argue so much
about all the rest, like, oh honey, that's a no brainer.
If he loves you.

Speaker 2 (50:00):
Like Christ loves the church, we just as we you know,
we love him because he does totally. Our love for
Jesus is a reaction to his love for us. So
if a husband is loving a wife as he should,
and that's a tall order, by the way.

Speaker 1 (50:15):
Christian, it's a very tall order that I say to Nick,
you got the bad end of the day. I always
we laugh. I go, everything flows out of that.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
Well, it is true. But you know, it's interesting. The
Bible specifically says husbands love your wife as Christ loves
the church. And then it specifically says, wives see that
you respect your husband. You know, wives need love, husbands
need respect. That's not to see. Husbands don't need love
and wives don't need respect, but it is to see.

(50:43):
The Bible is specific about that. And I think it's
important for a man to know that his wife respects.
And sometimes she may not telling him that as much
as she could. And of course he can be neglectful
and telling his wife how much he loves her as
he should.

Speaker 1 (50:59):
It's crucial and that we show that. I mean, you
can say the words respect, but is it demonstrating you
and the way you operate. So I think I've been
very keen to do that. And again I think if
we're about you know, when Jesus said to his mom,
I always laugh.

Speaker 2 (51:15):
He was twelve first Jesus said to his mom.

Speaker 1 (51:19):
You know the first recorded words we have mom of
Jesus in Luke. They're very important because we don't almost
nothing of Jesus's you know, pre teenage or even age
is but he you know, he says to her, don't
you know after she lost him for three days? I
always laugh. I go, that's in the Bible for every
mother in the world that's ever forgotten their kid at
the mall. It's all right because Mary forgot God for

(51:41):
three days anyway. So like, so she goes, but she
turns out and he goes, why were you looking for me?
Do you not know? I must be about my father's business.
So again I'm going to preempt everything with saying when
we're about the father's business, my business sort of goes secondary.
And again all of the that is never to say

(52:04):
it's okay not to be feeling seen or known or loved.
And I know we've got so many books about all that,
and it is important because some people didn't grow up
in great families, so they do need really good instructions
on here is how you love someone, well, here is
what you do. But I will always keep coming back
to Greg. If we truly love the Lord, our God

(52:24):
with all our heart, all our mind, all our strength,
and our neighbors, we love ourselves that includes our spouse. Yeah,
first and foremost actually, and so if that's been done right,
the rest of the stuff, like, Okay, I'm gonna sacrifice
doing this. I can have a movie night like you
can have a date night every year for twenty years
and still end up divorced because you're just doing it
biggrudgingly true, or you're not your heart's not in it.

Speaker 2 (52:47):
You know.

Speaker 1 (52:47):
It's like you go to a football game and you
can go that guy's playing, but his heart's not in it. Today.
Well you can be in your marriage and going I'm
doing all the stuff, but my heart's not in it.

Speaker 2 (52:57):
And your relationship with God too. That's why Ephesians to
excuse me revelation to it says, you know, basically, you're discerning,
you're hard working, you're you're checking all the boxes. But
I have this against you. You have left your first love,
you know. So it can happen in our walk with God,
and it could happen in our marriage very much. Now
you mentioned movies, let me ask you some mundane questions.

(53:21):
So what are your top five favorite films?

Speaker 1 (53:24):
I'm gonna have to say your movie on I as number.

Speaker 2 (53:26):
One, which is I'm Good A thank you.

Speaker 1 (53:31):
Yes, which I saw like a baby. I was on
a plane. It was very embarrassing, but anyway said that
was so well done, so well done. Well you don't
what oh my top one? I I'm trying to make
sure that I stay Yes.

Speaker 2 (53:49):
Exactly so you don't feel bad. So I define a
favorite film as a movie that if I'm flipping channels
on the television and it comes on, though I've seen
it fifty times or more, I'll wait until the next
commercial comes because I just love the movie right. So
for me, you know, it would be like Braveheart, right,

(54:11):
or it would be well, I love the original Ben
Her with Charleston Heston. I just have always loved that
film Tombstone. You know that maybe that's not the most
spiritual chest, but I just love the dialogue that's written
into Tombstone. Then this is the word one, and I
feel like I should turn my man card in for
saying this. I love the sound of music.

Speaker 1 (54:32):
So do I. That would have made it into my
top five. Okay, now you know that just shows you've
got great taste. That's not turn your man cut in.
And I love that film with and probably because it
reminds me of my mother. And I went hiking in Switzerland,
even though shot in Austria, and I sound I sang
the sound of music non stop. With all of that,

(54:53):
I do love my big fact Greek wedding.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
Yeah, you relate to it.

Speaker 1 (54:57):
It rates there and I mean I laugh every day
from here. I don't have anything. My kids will laugh
because they go, Mom, you love any French or Italian
movie with subtitles because I'm I'm an English major, and
so I love anything like Jane Austen. You know, so
those great. I'm sorry, I'm Kathy, so I know.

Speaker 2 (55:17):
All those movies to sleep by.

Speaker 1 (55:19):
My husband would say, one what you're saying exactly, any
if it.

Speaker 2 (55:23):
Has a British accent, let's watch this and I watch
it and I just fall asleep and I watch it
kind of stuff neck Watch.

Speaker 1 (55:29):
That's it. So we've got two different apps and I
made them download and pay the subscription because it's called
brit Box. We have that. That's because that's all I
want to watch, is this British.

Speaker 2 (55:40):
And we have two others that are similar to brett
Box as well.

Speaker 1 (55:43):
I'm trying to for me tell Kathy to send them
to me.

Speaker 2 (55:46):
I will. Yeah, there's another one that's very similar to
brett Box. And then of course PBS well sometimes play
the British shows.

Speaker 1 (55:55):
And stuff Britboxes. My husband never what he's bored, literally,
and I'm not even exaggerating. I will hear him snoring
within ten minutes if we're watching it Austin.

Speaker 2 (56:06):
Literally, I just how can we keep watching these seas?
Why do they keep remaking this scene?

Speaker 1 (56:13):
It's awesome and at least they're not like crude and
it's no And I mean, I've studied all the novels
for like five years at university. So how's my husband
He's got a banking and finance degree. He does not
get me in those.

Speaker 2 (56:26):
Well, you know, opposite a track. Okay. So like food,
like when you when you like, what do you go
to for like a comfort food like us? Just like
when you get back maybe to America, maybe on the road,
do you find it? What's your favorite kind of food?

Speaker 1 (56:39):
As soon as we come back, I'll always order a
good tie or a good Indian Okay. Yeah, and now
southern California doesn't. We've got great tie here. You're not
great Indian here. London's got great Indian. Don't forget. I
spent you know, a good out of the country at least,
you know, one hundred and eighty hundred and ninety nights,
so I get amazing food around the world. So thank god,
I've got a palette that is very international because I

(57:02):
love it. But Thie Indian would be very high for me,
and then of course Mediterranean.

Speaker 2 (57:08):
Kathy likes Thai in Indian. She was raised in the Philippines.
Is a little girl, oh wow, so you know, and
she lived in Thailand as well. So I'm a little
mystified when I'm in a Thai restaurant. I don't know
what to order. I'm more like I like Mexican food,
Italian food, I like hamburgers.

Speaker 1 (57:23):
I'm more just Mexican.

Speaker 2 (57:25):
Of course, yes, yes, I craved that when I'm gone,
because it seems like it's hard to find it done right,
even the East Coast. Like when I went to this
restaurant when we were filming Jesus Revolution and it was
in Alabama. We shot a lot of it in Alabama,
which substituted for California, believe it or not. Wow, And
so there was a Mexican restaurant. Looked pretty good, So

(57:48):
let's go in here, and I ordered not chos like
I love nachos, and instead of like melted cheddar cheese,
they literally put cheese whiz on chips like this sinful?

Speaker 1 (57:59):
That is that is? That is sinful? We do. And
I will say that when I land and I even
like our Mexican here in southern California more than Texas,
Like you know, they love their textas.

Speaker 2 (58:10):
The next thing is a different vice. They make everything
sweet in Texas.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
Now I prefer ours here, And that would be the
first thing. My daughter's studying in Paris, France, she is studying.

Speaker 2 (58:19):
Have you ever been to Joe Teas though in Fort Worth?
Pretty good Mexican. That's Texas.

Speaker 1 (58:24):
My daughter's taking notes as you're saying this, And so
as soon as she lands from Paris, even if it's
a late night and she doesn't get into lax, the
first thing, it could be ten thirty at night, her
sister will pick her up from the flight from Paris
and they will go find a Mexican restaurant. She just
that's her biggest Like, I miss California Mexican food.

Speaker 2 (58:44):
So if you can have dinner with like three people,
and we won't include Jesus, he would be our number
one choice. But people from Yesteroray living not living, who
would you like to have a meal with and talk to?
Bible character is historical figures?

Speaker 1 (59:00):
Oh I could do Bible characters.

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Yeah, which let's do historical figures and Bible characters.

Speaker 1 (59:06):
Well both, I think I'm always going to tend towards
here's me and obviously because I've been speaking about her
a lot, but I do want you to have dinner
with Lot's wife and find out what was it like
to be a pillar of salt for that period of time?

Speaker 2 (59:23):
Very conting, that's very constraining.

Speaker 1 (59:26):
There's so much I want to know about her. There
is quite a lot actually about why why look back
when you when you're being and it was deliberate.

Speaker 2 (59:34):
It was a deliberate look.

Speaker 1 (59:35):
Yeah, because you go to I mean.

Speaker 2 (59:36):
If something like that, well, what's going on? Wasn't that?

Speaker 1 (59:38):
It was like she wanted to go back.

Speaker 2 (59:41):
Where Jesus actually said, remember Lots, that's it.

Speaker 1 (59:44):
That's because I've been talking about her.

Speaker 2 (59:46):
Very interesting. Well, the good thing if you had a
meal with Lot's why you wouldn't have to ask her
to pass the soult. She would be the salt.

Speaker 1 (59:53):
I'm waiting for it, trust you. I want all the biblically,
I want the obscure and because changing you're like laughing
and I'm going I want to the daughters of Zalafa
had do you know that? Because numbers twenty. This is it. Well,
you know in America in nineteen hundred, the women suffragettes

(01:00:15):
when they finally got the right to vote, they cited
numbers twenty seven. Do you know that's in your congress?
I put up to the church the whole speech.

Speaker 2 (01:00:22):
I knew that, yep.

Speaker 1 (01:00:23):
And it was because and the woman Edna that was
quoting it. She said before the judiciary committee, she goes,
I suggest you or do what Moses did. He inclined
his ear to the Lord, because you know he went
and asked God about when they said, can I have
my inheritance? And she said on the first appeal that

(01:00:44):
the inheritance laws were changed and the women received the
inheritance in numbers twenty seven. And she goes, We've been
coming before you for thirty years, so perhaps it's time
for you to go before the Lord and to incline
your ear. And here from God's it was so instrumental.
So I want to know about their confidence. How do
you in ancient Near East in times go before the

(01:01:07):
tentive meeting Moses, Eliezer, the priest and all the leaders
when there was no precedent for that kind of inheritance,
you know, obviously for the allotment of land. And yet
the Lord said to Moses what the daughters of Zalopa
had said is right, they should get it. What was
it that got you the confidence that you knew God's
going to say yes and gave you the faith? So

(01:01:29):
that fascinates me.

Speaker 3 (01:01:30):
Of course I am going to go I am going.

Speaker 1 (01:01:34):
To keep it on a girls like that. How often
do you have a chick on your podcast? So this
is for all the girls to be able to say, oh, okay,
there are chicks there, and you know, we're going to
talk about it. And I do want to talk to Priscilla,
you know, Aquilla's wife, because I want to know, like
even when she was there in Corinth with a quiller,

(01:01:55):
you know, and they prepped it for Paul to come
down from Thessalonica Athens and then Corinth obviously, but when
she went to I'm pretty sure it was in Ephesus
where she took the guy out of Alexandria that had
been teaching and she took was it a Policyes, and
she took him aside and you know, to ensure that

(01:02:18):
he was teaching the right things. I want to know
what it would have been like in Ephesus. Then she
wasn't formally trained, and Apolos was brilliant. He was out
of the Alexander school. So with all of his education,
all of his training, all of his brilliants, what was
it like to take him aside and to for him
obviously he wanted to hear and understand. And where was

(01:02:40):
she Where did she get her knowledge from to be
able to train him? Like there are some questions like
that that I want to know is like how did
that happen? Because you were obviously very instrumental with Paul
and your husband in obviously the church plants in Corinth
and Ephesus. But even this guy that was mean in
the scripture says he was a great arator and he
was brilliant, obviously trained. My parents are from Alexandria, Egypt,

(01:03:01):
and I'm like, you were trained at the best. And
yet this woman that we don't know that much about
except she goes turn up a couple of times in
the New Testament and in strategic church plans, and of
course I'm always interested in church planting, so they're my chicks.

Speaker 2 (01:03:14):
Well, it shows that also a couple working together, because
you know, Aquila and Prissella. They both discipled him taught
him the way of God more perfectly. And you know,
and I want to ask you about a person we
both know because when I was a brand new Christian,
I accepted Christ in my high school campus. Some guy
never met before, his name was Mark, comes up to me. Hey,

(01:03:36):
I saw you accepted Christ. I was like, who's this guy?
Why is he talking to me? And I'm like yeah,
and he goes, well, you know, you need to go
to church. And because I was just going to this
little Bible study on my high school campus, they said, oh,
that's okay. And he goes, no, you need to come
to church with me. And said, now that's all right.
And he goes, where do you live? I go, no,
I don't. Next thing I know, I'm giving him my address.

(01:03:57):
He was persistent and the best way. He started to
disciple me. And he took me to his home and
he had his mom and dad. They were a Christian family.
Ever had meals with my family? You know, I went
on and got my own food every night. Wow, Now
it was kind of good because I did eat what
I wanted every night. I had a Hamburger, French fise
and a vanilla shake. But after the ten thousandth time,

(01:04:19):
I would literally I just love being with a Christian family.
I've never seen that before, Mom, Dad, siblings. We had
a nice meal than a Bible study afterwards, so you know,
you see the power. We think it's all preachers are
going to do, but sometimes just a godly couple like
an Equila and a Priscilla can help a mighty communicator
like an Apollos that somewhere saying I'm a Paul, Well

(01:04:42):
I'm of Apollo. So he had to be quite a
mover in shake to be a competitor to Paul, for
lack of a better expression, but you know, it's yeah,
So what about historical figures like you know, like for me,
I'd say Spurgeon, probably C. S. Lewis, you know, maybe Churchill.
I've just always admired Churchill. It might be Abraham Lincoln,

(01:05:04):
it might be George Washington.

Speaker 1 (01:05:07):
You know, well, of course, you know, I mean, I
would love to meet Alexander the Great because back to
the Greek It's all right, I got to go back
to So there's no doubt about that. Nelson Mandela, well
very much so, because you know, I mean, and we've
got an office in South Africa, So for me, that
whole kind of thing is is really really important.

Speaker 2 (01:05:31):
In March to your own beat, Christina, Oh, you're all
the things you say, like, no, I wouldn't expect them,
but it's so interesting. Really well, I guess just because
I think it's different than me. But you know, the
things you pivot to are interesting, like your girls. You
would have a meal with Lot's wife. I'm going to
remember that. That's gonna findance way into a sermon summer.

(01:05:51):
I was once talking to Christine Can I asked her
if she get in a meal with anybody. She said,
lots of And I think that's cool.

Speaker 1 (01:05:59):
It's gonna yeah, the women's dinners, the love for Had's
daughters and Priscilla that's my and then definitely Nelson, definitely.
You know, I'm just thinking Billy Graham, probably because it
were you knew him, but I never did.

Speaker 2 (01:06:14):
Well, and I you know, I had the great privilege
of having meals with him, and I can tell you
in person he was even more impressive, well privately than
he was publicly and publicly. You know, he's this great preacher,
I think, one of the greatest preachers ever. But privately.
He was so kind and it was actually very hard
to get him to talk about himself because he was

(01:06:35):
mister history. He shook hands with everybody, you know, he
knew Churchill, he knew gold in my ear, he knew
every president. And going back to Truman, Muhammad Ali, he
came to us home, you name it, he met him.
So I would ask him, Billy, tell me about the
time that you met this person. Then he would kind
of say a few things, and then he'd say, tell
me about yourself, And he really actually was interested. And

(01:06:59):
I would think, why am I talking to him about myself?
I don't really want to talk about myself to him,
but he was interested. I think that's I think one
of the secrets of his great success was a genuine
and real humility, and he was a very approachable person.
But I wanted to talk about one person. And then

(01:07:19):
a closing question, J John. We both know j J.

Speaker 1 (01:07:23):
Yes legend and so.

Speaker 2 (01:07:25):
I've heard and you have to tell me that he
played a role in leading you to Christ.

Speaker 1 (01:07:30):
Ye had a really significant role. I was at Sydney University.
I had gone in nineteen eighty six. Then I deferred
for two years kind of traveled the world, came back,
and my dad had died in that time, and to
say I was far away from God is an understatement,
and probably extremely disappointed with God my father dying. I

(01:07:53):
think everything, the abuse, it all had caught up with me.
And a friend of mine at Sydney University said, you know,
there's a Greek evangelist coming to do and of course
we call them crusades then too, it was a week
long crusade in So this is nineteen eighty eight, eighty nine,
and I was utterly disinterested in anything to do with

(01:08:18):
God church. I was so angry that my dad had died,
so I had a lot of anger. But because he
was my friend again, like you're saying, it's normal everyday people,
my friend just continued to persevere and sort of played
the Greek card, and eventually it intrigued me because I
had never heard of a Greek like Protestant Christian, like,

(01:08:39):
you know, I didn't know. I mean, my mom would say, well,
you grew up in the Orthodox Church where Christians, yes,
but not really a born again believer. I'd never personally
come across a Greek one. And so she goes, just
come and listen to him and his Greek he's a
Greek cypriot actually is so I remember I went, I was,
I sat at the back and didn't even really want

(01:09:01):
to be there. And I mean, of course J John
is just so winsome and so there's none like him too,
I mean unparalleled. It's like mister Bean on steroids and
a theological theologian mister Bean. And so but I stood
at the back, and then my friend at the end
sort of made me go say hello, and let me

(01:09:23):
just say I was very I was less than polite,
like because he's just him and he was not shaken
at all, like you know, he's like my because I
was so angry with God and Christianity and everything. It
just he didn't even care, just becau why don't we
have coffee, you know, like just he was so winsome.
And and then I went to coffee with my friend

(01:09:46):
and I would just was still, you know, all my
animosity towards God would come out that he was great,
no problem, you know, so loving, just come back to our.

Speaker 2 (01:09:56):
A bridge builder that you never.

Speaker 1 (01:09:59):
Tried to close and never tried to dismiss my feelings.
In fact, was very empathetic, you know, with my pain.

Speaker 2 (01:10:07):
You probably read that.

Speaker 1 (01:10:09):
Yeah, very much so of course, and then invited me
for another coffee and then another and it was like
that whole week I would go to the event, you know,
like at the school.

Speaker 2 (01:10:19):
Did he do that with anybody else?

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
No, it was really the Lord and I have my
friend with him, he had his assistant with him, but
it was just like he obviously felt to reach out
and he was lasting. He tells a story about everywhere
around the world, you know, just invite someone for another
cup of coffee because you never know what the next
cup of coffee. Because I was on the receiving it.
And truly the Lord used him to massively bring me back,

(01:10:44):
and then he was so gracious break to Christ. And
then I got planted in a church, which then I
began to be discipled. But that without that that week
of crusade at Sydney University in eighty eight eighty nine,
he entered my world and then came back the next
year to do a series of things I think with
the Sydney Anglicans around my stating New South Wales, and

(01:11:06):
he was so grati him. Achille really took me under
their wing. From then and to this day. You know,
weird difference, but a great guy.

Speaker 2 (01:11:13):
Yeah, you know, I've been with him, He's spoken from
me before, and he got me this really cool. He
knows I'm a Beatles fan. I'm a huge Beetles fan.

Speaker 4 (01:11:23):
And he goes, Greg, I got you a little yellow
submarine killing I saw it in this store.

Speaker 2 (01:11:29):
I'm trying to do this is I'm laughing.

Speaker 4 (01:11:32):
It's actually that from when the Beatles were together. Still,
so I've got this little yellow submarine right in front
of my computer monitor. And he pushed the little levers
and John Paul, George Rico Poka. I think if my
office was on fire, I go yell submarine and I
d have a couple of other things. But because it's
so cool and the fact that he took the time

(01:11:53):
to give that to me is a wonderful man of God.
So okay, let's think about this as we wrap up,
and thank you for your time. If an older Christine
could speak to a younger you like you know, with
all you've experienced, what advice would you give yourself?

Speaker 1 (01:12:10):
You know this question when people ask me, I'm going
to get on those questions.

Speaker 2 (01:12:14):
I'm going to I ask it. I don't like it.

Speaker 1 (01:12:16):
I don't like anything because Julan when I started, truly
when I were after that week with Jay John and
then coming to church. So I would say from the
nineteenth of January nineteen eighty nine, sorry, twenty ninth of
January nineteen eighty nine was when I walked into my

(01:12:37):
church for the first time, and then I've never looked back.
Like that was that I'm planted in church and I'm
following Jesus. I began to be disciples, which is why
you need an evangelist too, because if there had been
no Sydney University crusade, I wouldn't have been you know
what I'm saying. That's why. So all of it goes together.
So the twenty ninth of January nineteen eighty nine, here
I am. Very soon after that, I was reading Psalm ninety,

(01:13:01):
verse twelve, which said, Moses, you wrote, you know, teach
us to number our days that we may develop a
heart of wisdom now because again my painful past and whatever.
I took that so literally, So we're talking January nineteen
eighty nine. So I went and of course he wrote
seventy years eighty If you're like, I added ten more

(01:13:22):
years and so I went, okay, assuming I lived ninety years,
and then did the count, how many actual days on
this earth I would have from that time I was
twenty two, twenty two to ninety. And I said to
the Lord, because I felt like I'd wasted so many,
you know, and I hated that I wasted so many,
And I went, Lord, if you give me this amount

(01:13:43):
of days, I will give every single one of them
to you and my staff and everyone will tell you,
and I have and down to now. I'm just writing
a book about wisdom, and I've written about this chapter.
And I said, well, now I'm sixty, so I've only
got this many days left, assuming of course God could
take me home anytime. But I'm just going assuming i'm it.
And I think the thing I would say that my

(01:14:04):
younger self, right was I started counting my days because
our days count. So I numbered my days because I knew.
So I have lived every day knowing my days are numbered,
and so that really affects what you do today. And
so I could say that, and so you know, when
I go having I have.

Speaker 2 (01:14:21):
Someone listening, now maybe they're younger or whatever age, Yeah,
you know, you like, you can't change what has happened. No,
but you have today and you have the days total
for you, So they could make a similar commitment to
Christ that a younger you need.

Speaker 1 (01:14:36):
That's what I think. No matter what age you are,
you've only got today. But numbering our days, I mean,
if you want a heart of wisdom and to really
learn to live wisely, the sooner you number your days
because you realize your days are numbered. I always say
to people, this is why again we know we're circling
back to the eschatology. But I say to people, if

(01:14:58):
it freaks you out that I'm talking about Jesus coming
back or the end of the world, whatever, And you go,
if I knew Jesus was coming back to me sorrow,
I would change. I'd stop doing this this or this,
or I'd start doing this. I go, I actually don't understand.
Why aren't you doing that or why haven't you stopped
doing that? Every Christian ought to live as if it's

(01:15:18):
going to happen tomorrow or today, and plan as if
it's not going to happen for generations. So simultaneously, am
I doing everything from our ministry, my children? Am I
thinking generationally? Absolutely? Am I living as if Jesus could
come back today totally. So am I ready as ready

(01:15:39):
as I know how to, you know, and we ought
to be. But that, to me is the Christian life.
That's how you don't become a lukewarm Christian or just
sort of a nominal Christian, because you're in this thing
called this world and where you're thinking generationally and you're planning,
but you're living urgently. Most Christians live in panic, they

(01:16:01):
don't live urgent. I don't panic, but I'm urgent.

Speaker 2 (01:16:05):
Excellent. Yeah. Someone asked del Moody that question, like, you know,
what would you do if you knew that this was
your last day? He goes, I'd live it as they
live every day. I always live in anticipation. And even
if it's not the day the Lord would come back,
it could be the day when your life ends, what
till you go to the afterlife and then there's the
rewards and the judgment seat of Christ and all the

(01:16:26):
things you've alluded to. But we don't have to be afraid.
It's like Paul said, to live as Christ in the dioscaus.

Speaker 1 (01:16:32):
I have a smile on my face because because I
really mean it. He's like, even is there a lost
suffering grieve. Yes, but I thought we are like those
that grieve, we don't agrieve without hope. So there, if
Jesus is this hope I have as an anchor for
my soul, both firm and secure, that's it'll be. People
go to be Chris. That's weird. That's being born again.

(01:16:56):
That's what I would just think. That is the normal
Christian life.

Speaker 2 (01:16:58):
Yeah, Christine, I'm just so you know, amazed by your
life and you know you you could have gone a
different direction. You could have been an angry woman and
turned against God, and instead you turned to him. And
you've taken this pinion use it as a tool to
help other people, and they'll listen to you because you know,

(01:17:21):
it's been said that success builds walls and failure builds bridges.
So you know, if I'm up there and hey, everything's awesome,
and you know I'm all that in a bag of chips,
who can relate to that? Well, when you talk about
your story and what you've come through and how you've
turned to the Lord, you know it can inspire younger people.
So let's just end with this question. You know, if

(01:17:45):
there's a young person out there, you know they feel unwanted,
they feel unloved. What would you say to them?

Speaker 1 (01:17:53):
I want them to know that that God loves them.
God sees them, that they called, that they've chosen. You know,
I think greg everything's changed and nothing's changed. You know,
the very last verse before the four in Genesis two
twenty five says Adam and Ebel naked and then knew
no shame. There was this unhindered relationship between them and God,

(01:18:17):
and then the enemy came straight in to put something
on them they were never created to carry. So why
would the Lord tell us you're not supposed to carry shame?
Most people carry shame they feel so unseen by God
because of guilt, shame, condemnation. I certainly was like that
for years. And that's really the enemy because it's like,
I'm going to put something on you that you were

(01:18:39):
never created to bear the burden of, so that you
run from God instead of two God. And so the
three questions in Genesis three is what I want to
say to someone, is that the enemy comes in. And
you know the first question in the Bible is from
the devil? Did God really say? So? I need someone
to know the lie you believe is that something God said,

(01:19:00):
or is it something culture says or social media says,
or in my case, you know, the abuser said, or
you know, whatever happened, Did God really say that? Or
was it the enemy or culture or society? You know?
And then the Lord says the same thing. He goes,
you know, where are you? You're the first question God
asks in the Bible, and I think the Lord would

(01:19:21):
be asking that to us every day. And someone he said,
where are you? Where is the you that I created?
Where is the youth full of God given potential, the
you that I love? And then, you know, Adam first
record a conversation between Adam and God was fear, shame
and hiding. It was, you know, I was naked and
afraid and so I hid. And I think that's how

(01:19:41):
we talk to God. I'm afraid or I'm naked, you know,
and so I'm hiding. And I'm like, you don't have
to talk to God like that. You could talk to
him as a son, as a daughter, knowing that you
are fully loved, fully known, fully seen, fully forgiven because
of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ on the grass,
he sees you. And then you know, the Lord asked him,

(01:20:01):
He goes, who told you? And I think that's the
thing that you've got to understand, who told you the
lie that you believe? And will you elevate the voice
of God above every other voice in your life? Because
the voice of God says, you're loved, you're chosen, you're forgiven,
you're not condemned, you're valued. And I think we're living
in a world where we're bombarded with so much noise,

(01:20:22):
and you've got to choose what voices you. With social media,
you've got to turn it off because it's the same
conversation almost that was happening in the Garden of Eden.
It still exists in twenty twenty six of planet Earth,
but it's amplified with social media and everything. So it's
you know, did God really say? Now? Again, anytime the
enemy wants to undermine a generation, he's going to try

(01:20:43):
to undermine the authority of the word of God. So
we're living in another cycle of that. You and I've
lived long enough where it's like this word's not really
true to God. They say to God, really say you know?
And it's like, yes, so, And I think knowing what
God says, that knowing where you are. Are you in
hiding or is it time to run to him and
take your all, your brokenness, your pain, yourself to him,

(01:21:07):
knowing that He forgives us pels is if you confess
your sin. This was the most liberating thing I ever heard.
That He is faithful and just to forgive me my
sin and cleanse me from all on righteousness. And I
want someone to know that God is light and in
him there is no darkness. If you're like me and
you come from a background of abuse or pain or suffering,

(01:21:28):
it's hard to trust people. But when I realize that
God is light and that he has no dark side,
people have a dark side. God doesn't.

Speaker 2 (01:21:36):
That's true.

Speaker 1 (01:21:37):
God is light and in him there is no darkness.
You can fully trust him. That's what I want to
tell people.

Speaker 2 (01:21:44):
Thanks,

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