Michael W. Smith on the "Unusual" Album That Changed Everything for Him

Michael W. Smith almost died of a drug overdose at 17. He'd been a Jesus freak at 13, then lost his way. What brought him back was a night on the linoleum floor of a Nashville apartment, alone, sensing God next to him saying, "It's going to be okay."

In this conversation, Michael sits down with Greg Laurie to talk about the moments that shaped him — and the ones most people never hear about.
What we cover:
• Walking into a record store at 13 and finding Christian music for the first time
• The prodigal years from '75 to '79, and what pulled him back
• Late-night visits with Billy Graham in Montreat — and praying for Billy at the end
• Meeting Presidents Bush, Reagan, and playing tennis in Kennebunkport
• Rocketown, Nashville — why he built it and what's happening there now
• His goal of never being offended again
• Marriage, mentorship, and staying grounded after 43 years in the industry
• Johnny Cash, John Williams, and the perfect pizza

A conversation about faith that held, a father who never gave up, and a life still being written.

Subscribe for more conversations like this.

Timestamps
00:19 Meeting Michael W. Smith
01:26 Discovering Jesus music at 13
03:24 Coming to Christ at age 10
04:26 The prodigal years and near-fatal overdose
06:16 Rock bottom and God's embrace
09:38 Breaking into music through Amy Grant
10:52 Working with Billy Graham
13:30 Personal visits with Billy at Montreat
17:07 Friendship with the Bush family
23:47 The Rick Rubin interview and Johnny Cash
27:13 State of Christian music today
29:22 Secrets to a lasting marriage
36:50 The origin of Rocketown
40:37 Rocketown's ongoing impact

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:08):
Life audio, and I'm going out a park on the corner.
All these kids are cruising and I hear the voice
of God. I don't say it very often, like it's
almost an audible thing. Build it and they'll come. I went,
that's the Kevin coshnermany.

Speaker 2 (00:30):
So I'm here with my friend Michael W. Smith. Really
a true legend. He has had a forty year career.
He's been nominated for Grammys fifteen times? Is that right? Fifteen?
I think I don't know, okay? And one four times?
Is that right? Three? Three? Is that all? Come on?

Speaker 1 (00:49):
Man?

Speaker 2 (00:50):
Three Grammys, forty double awards? Does that sound right? Eighteen million?
This is just designed to embarrass you. Eighteen million albums
sold more than thirty six number one songs on the radio.
But the best thing about Michael W. Smith is he
has given his gift to God and he glorifies the
Lord with his life, with his music, with all that

(01:13):
the Lord has given. Well, Michael, thanks for being here.
You're welcome, man. It's honor. You just got off a
plane and here you are. You know, I was thinking
about how you first were introduced to Christian music, in particular,
I saw you talk about it. You went into some
little bookstore and you saw we call Him Marinatha one
that was called The Everlasting.

Speaker 1 (01:34):
Living Jesus Music.

Speaker 2 (01:36):
Very unusual title. Yes, And of course I was there
at Calbrey Choppel and watching those bands live, you know,
and then that album came out, and so you were
what state were you in when you saw this?

Speaker 1 (01:48):
Thirteen thirteen, I was writing songs. I was still playing baseball,
and you want to be a professional baseball player.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
But I kept writing songs.

Speaker 1 (01:56):
Yeah, And I was buying all the Elton John and
the Beatles and so Sage and so music was sort
of starting to really take the whole told me because
I kept thinking, maybe this is what I'm supposed to do.
And then at thirteen, I walked in that store looking.

Speaker 2 (02:11):
For a Beatles record and it was your favorite Beatles record.

Speaker 1 (02:15):
Oh gosh, that's a hard one, hard day's night.

Speaker 2 (02:18):
Maybe, yeah, I love Really it was the beginning.

Speaker 1 (02:21):
I remember going to Davidson's Record shopping buying the forty five.

Speaker 2 (02:24):
I still have it.

Speaker 1 (02:24):
Yeah, thanks to my mom and dad. I want to
hold your hand.

Speaker 2 (02:28):
And I saw her standing there.

Speaker 1 (02:29):
I have had both those singles.

Speaker 2 (02:30):
Ya, those are great songs. Yeah, I stood the test
of Time, Billy Joel Too meaning artists scenes from an
Italian restaurant. That whole piece is in crowd, brilliant.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
But when I got when I saw that record and
it said that the big bread Marion office eye, and
I flipped it over and they all had long hair
singing about Jesus. And I remember, and I remember, I
can tell you every detail about that moment.

Speaker 2 (02:53):
I remember going, that's what I wow did just from
looking at the cover because of the music.

Speaker 1 (02:59):
Because I would think I was saying. Then fifteen, I
knew that's what God wanted me to do. But I
kept loving the and John records and loving the Kansus
records and going, well, why can't you make pop music
and sing about Jesus? And so when I saw that
they were doing it, then yeah, you know that might
it might not be my style because I was up
sort of more in the pop vein and stuff, but

(03:21):
that was my goal. I'm going to go get a
record deal. I'm going to make pop music.

Speaker 2 (03:25):
Thirteen said I'm going to get a record deal.

Speaker 1 (03:27):
Well, no, I said, that's what I want to do. Yeah,
at fifteen, I knew that God, that God really was
calling me to do that.

Speaker 2 (03:34):
I'll never forget it. You're raising the Christian home. I
was you wrote a book talking about things you learned
from your father. Yeah, and what was your father's name? Paul? Paul?
And so at what age were you when you made
a commitment of Christ where you understood what you were
doing or was it consistent back to your youth?

Speaker 1 (03:53):
No, I knew what I was doing when I was ten.
It was a it was a it was an epiphany.
I mean I was like, it was like I was
with my buddies on the back pew wow, had heard
the message over and all of a sudden, the light
bulb went off, and I remember going, oh, my gosh,
he really is who he said he was.

Speaker 2 (04:11):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (04:12):
And I got up and walked down the aisle, and
all my buddies were going, what's he doing, dude?

Speaker 2 (04:17):
What are you doing? You know?

Speaker 1 (04:19):
And it was real And then fifteen that's only second
time I walked down the aisle and I told Stan Franklin,
who was my pastor who baptized me. I said, I
think God's called me in the music, and he laid
hands on me and prayed for me.

Speaker 2 (04:32):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (04:32):
And then I lost my way at seventeen, I thought
I could play with a fire, and I get burned.
From seventy five to seventy nine, I almost died from
a drug overdose.

Speaker 2 (04:40):
I've written all let's the first time. So seventeen is
the age I was when I came to Christ. So,
but seventeen was the age you were at when you
had a prodigal turn? What was it that pulled you
away away from your faith or was there something that
was drawing you? I know it evolved dropping I think.

Speaker 1 (04:59):
Well, I think that. I mean, the whole thing began
at thirteen, and the Jesus movement found it in the
Canova Westrontiaca of all places. And so but while I
was thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, all my buddies were smoking pot
and drinking fire. So all my friends were college age,
and we were all meet almost every single night, having
Bible studies and playing Jesus music in people's living rooms.

(05:22):
And I was on fire with this big wooden cross.
I was a Jesus freak.

Speaker 2 (05:25):
And then all those.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
People all went off to college and got married, and
I didn't have a support team, and I just and
I started kind of hanging out with the wrong people. Yeah, maybe,
you know, maybe I can do a little bit of that.
Maybe I could play with the fire. And I got deceived.
This is my favorite name for the devil. I mean,
he's the great deceiver, and I think he was trying

(05:48):
to kill me and he sucked me in. And then
all of a sudden that the fourth year of that
prodigal period, when I almost lost my life from crazy
drug overdose, I knew that there was a call all
my life and Devil's trying to take them out. So
I'm here, I believe with every fower of my being
because of my mom and dad who never gave up

(06:10):
on me and pray for me every Yeah, probably not
to the extent, probably not the deep stuff, but they
knew I was in trouble and they never kicked me
out of the house. He never came down on me.
They just kept loving me. And yeah, so what was
the drug that you almost overdose times? It was THC.

(06:32):
It was some wow tranquilizer and I thought it was
cocaine and it was something else. My blood's rushing out
inside of my nose and the guys trying to clean
me up, and the two days I was like, you know,
my brain was fried.

Speaker 2 (06:46):
Wow, And that's when I knew.

Speaker 1 (06:49):
That's when I begin to pray, God, do whatever you
have to do to get my attention, because I think
You've got to call my life and I'm supposed to
live and bring Kingdom down to earth. And long story short,
I hit rock bottom nineteenth November in nineteen seventy and
I'd lost my joy. I got depressed. It's really never
been depressed in my life.

Speaker 2 (07:09):
And I had rock bottom and.

Speaker 1 (07:12):
I convulsed and twisted and I having probably had a
nervous breakdown on my linoleum floor in that apartment in
Nashville and for three and a half hours from like
midnight till three thirty in the morning. And then I
was just like I was sore, so worn out, and
I felt like be on a shallow doubt that Abba
was laying on the floor with me with his arm

(07:33):
around me. So it's gonna be okay.

Speaker 2 (07:35):
And I haven't been the.

Speaker 1 (07:36):
Same, yeah, since that day.

Speaker 2 (07:38):
So you know in your book The Way of the Father,
lessons I learned from my dad teos about God. So
your father really reflected the Father and the prodigal Son's story.
Welcome the Son home, even when he went astray. So
your dad, Paul was key in that. Both my sons
went prodigal, both got into drugs. And my oldest son, Christopher,

(08:01):
has been in heaven some time now, many years, like
eighteen years. And in fact, I remember after it happened,
you called me. I don't know if you remember that,
but I really appreciated that. And but he got into drugs,
but recommitted his life to christ was walking with the
Lord when the Lord called him home unexpectedly. But his

(08:22):
younger brother was really in the drugs. Jonathan and Christopher
was having a conversation with him, and he said, Jonathan,
what's it going to take for you to not do
this anymore? I've already been down this road. You don't
want to do this. What's it going to take? And
Jonathan determined he was going to have another conversation with
his brother Christopher, and then Christopher was gone. And I'm

(08:45):
not saying that's what it took, but the reality is
is that event changed Jonathan's life and he recommitted his
life to the Lord. He's a pastor now at our church.
He's been walking with the Lord for many years. But
you know those sometimes it's been said when you get
to the end of yourself, you get to the beginning
of God. You know quick?

Speaker 1 (09:04):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (09:05):
Great? Yeah? Yeah. So have you carried the lessons you
learned from your father Paul onto being a parent yourself?
I think I have. You seem like you'd be a
really good dad to me. I love you. It does
Michael W. Smith ever lose his temper? Do you yell? Yes?

Speaker 1 (09:25):
From time to time? Yes, but you know, not too often,
but I do. I mean, you know, you know way
we all do, you know? And I love you a dad.
I love being a grandfather.

Speaker 2 (09:36):
How many grand kids do you have? Twenty? Last time
I saw you was not that many.

Speaker 1 (09:41):
Well we thought we were holding at eighteen, but you know,
it went up two more.

Speaker 2 (09:45):
Do you know all their names? I do. That's incredible birthdays.

Speaker 1 (09:49):
I have to look at the calendary.

Speaker 2 (09:51):
Wow. Yeah, now you know all twenty names. That's impressive. Yeah. No,
what a blessing that is.

Speaker 1 (09:56):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (09:56):
So you got into music. You love the mayor not
the record you're I think you started out as a
session player, right, but you weren't really we would call
it artists. Yeah, you were writing songs. So I was
writing songs.

Speaker 1 (10:09):
That's sort of That's how I got started, was I
wrote a song for Truth, and then I wrote a
song for Sandy Patty was just how much just gets
your name? And then I met a girl named Amy
Grant and started writing songs for her Age to Age record.

Speaker 2 (10:23):
Yes, so you were a keyboard player, and did she
sort of launch you and the music?

Speaker 1 (10:28):
I would say I wouldn't be here if for her.

Speaker 2 (10:31):
And have you been able to do that for any
other artists as you've been successful like people.

Speaker 1 (10:37):
You Well, I have, but I mean I don't want
to brag about that, but I mean there's a lot
of people that well. Jarza Clay Ratt Marr was on
the road with me, Jordan Smith from American Idol. Yeah,
willing to do little on the Christmas tour. Gosh, I
can go on Leland too, right, I mean, who's that
Leland too?

Speaker 2 (10:56):
Leland?

Speaker 1 (10:57):
I mean we actually didn't go on the road together,
but we we wrote songs together, and I record a
lot of the songs.

Speaker 2 (11:03):
You know. So one of the people you worked with
early on or maybe later in your career, it was
Billy Graham and you know, and I was actually there
at that time. I've been on this board for probably
thirty years and I was helping him at that point
because Billy was in his later years and I was
just starting our Crusade ministry. So he said, I want

(11:24):
you to help me with my messages and help make
them more contemporary. So I was going through his messages
and I was giving him fresher illustrations. I remember one time,
this marks it in time where it was I found
a lyric from Smashing Pumpkins called rat in a Cage
and so I don't remember the lyrics, but it was
something to the effect I'm just a rat in a cage.

(11:46):
Something too other lad or two. So I put it
in there and I put a little note Billy Smashing
Pumpkins is the name of a band, because I didn't
want to think it was literally someone smashing pumpkins. And
it was in Minneapolis when he delivered that line. It
was one of the greatest moments of my life because
it was like anything I could do to help Billy.
You know, we all loved him, but I know that

(12:07):
he decided he wanted to reach younger people. This was
a conflict on the board. I was on the board
at the time, and there were board members that were
adamantly against it. I would say, no, you guys got
to do this, this is the best thing.

Speaker 1 (12:21):
And it was you Cleveland Stadium nineteen ninety four.

Speaker 2 (12:24):
Did you guys ever do an event? It seems like, oh,
where was it? Georgia? Did you do it at Georgia
as well? Well?

Speaker 1 (12:31):
Well, probably, I'm trying to think, because I know we
did Minneapolis, we did we.

Speaker 2 (12:34):
I mean Cleveland was the beginning of many.

Speaker 1 (12:37):
So every Billy Graham crusade from that point on Saturday
night was night and so I did probably ten, eleven, twelve.

Speaker 2 (12:44):
Thirteen, and then a phased out.

Speaker 1 (12:46):
I got a little older, and they pulled in some
younger bands to do it, and that night was That's
the top five for me anything in my life was
that night.

Speaker 2 (12:57):
You would do a particular song before he would come
out and speakudn't you? Yeah?

Speaker 1 (13:01):
And I'm trying to think, I'm trying to remember what
that song is. I should know what that song was.
Think I may not have introduced him.

Speaker 2 (13:07):
That night was I find your Way you and the
song about finding your way home or something, I'll lead
you home. I'll lead you home. That's it. That's what
I recollected. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. And then and the
funny thing is I remember, like you guys would be
out and do your thing, and then Billy would come out.
When I thought was so cool is Billy didn't like
dress in a contemporary way. He just stressed like Billy,

(13:27):
which was a suit. Yeah, And he came out and
he probably got the biggest applause of the night.

Speaker 1 (13:32):
Oh he did, because he was just standing ovations.

Speaker 2 (13:35):
Yes. Yeah, And you got to know him too, didn't
he I did. That's a privilege, the stories of just
tell me a couple uh well, nothing like Billy laying
ANNs on you and praying for it.

Speaker 1 (13:49):
But I would go visit him, yes, and his home,
in his home yeah, uh montreat. I would play that
attitude piano and love on him and Ruth. Ruth were
still alive, and then Ruth passed and then it was
Billy and then I would just I just kept going back,
maybe couple times a year, sometimes three, and we would
just talk. And then he got weak and they just

(14:12):
and all of a sudden, he's in a wheelchair and
so and then but he always prayed for me, you know,
And so then I started setting up the piano beside
his wheelchair in the bed, bring electric piano. I play.
Always favorite him. And then the last two times he
couldn't pray for me, because that's all I have prayed

(14:33):
for him. It's just like you should have going. I
can't believe I'm doing this, you know. But he I
know he could hear me, and he would I could
hear him try and go home because we put the
headphones in so I could hear me a little better,
you know, And so I always kind of feel back.

Speaker 2 (14:48):
I always called him Billy.

Speaker 1 (14:50):
Yeah, and but but out of respect, I think he's
probably the one to just call me billy.

Speaker 2 (14:56):
You know, you want to call him doctor Graham. That's
what his team called him. He said that they called
me Billy. It just Billy is such a it's a
southern though. You know, there's Johnny's, there's Billy's, there's and
it seems too personal. But but he did want you
to just call him Billy. He did.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
I think we kind of had a lot of things
in common, and on some level, he's got five kids,
I got five kids. He travels, I travel keeping a
family together, and we would talk a lot about our kids. Yeah,
and then we I guess we talked about a lot
of a lot of stuff. You know, sometimes we talk
about very few times about politics, but just world affairs,

(15:36):
what's going on in the world. But he would always
bring it back to this going you know, just Jesus
is the only answer there is, and and.

Speaker 2 (15:44):
We would edify each other. He would really have me.
So when I would walk out there, I.

Speaker 1 (15:48):
Just kind of felt like I was ten feet doggling.

Speaker 2 (15:50):
I feel he's the most godly men I ever met.
I've met a lot of godly men as you have,
and women, and but I just felt like, you know,
as he got older, he just became sweeter and and
he was to me, It's like, I think, as close
as you could get on earth, just sitting down with
Jesus and having a conversation, you just reflected Christ. I

(16:13):
remember one time in this home, Ruth was very ill
at this point, and Dennis that a Genian, you know him.
Of course, he came over and Billy asked him to play.
So Dennis played Uh Handles Messiah, And as he was
playing it on the guitar, He's playing it on his guitar.

Speaker 1 (16:32):
Dom Do Do Doom, Doom.

Speaker 2 (16:34):
And Billy is is just looking at Ruth and Ruth
is just like, even though she was very ill, she
was almost like glowing. And I thought, Wow, there's this
story here. What's this all about? And then Billy at
the song at the end of the song leaned over
to Ruth and said, that's a song they played on
our first date. Wow. Because he took her to see

(16:55):
Andlesmith's and it was such a sweet moment. He loved.
They loved each other so much. I saw them disagree too.
That was fun, you know, over nothing. She was she
was opinionated, she'd speak her mind. She would speak her mind. Yeah.
And you got to know George W.

Speaker 1 (17:13):
Bush?

Speaker 2 (17:14):
And is that because you showed the same initial was
that the how did you get an?

Speaker 1 (17:21):
I met George W through his dad. Oh wow, George
h W Yeah. And so I played a Christmas special
NBC Christmas in Washington in nineteen eighty nine. President was there,
Barbara Bush and met them before there on the front road.
I was dying on heaven. I'm playing for the President
United States and now. And then after the show we

(17:44):
thought was over, we back having a party celebrating the thing.
And then I had got the President NBC and the
Secret Service guy come up says, the President was requesting
you and your wife to come to the White House.
So we got in the car, ran every red light
and pulled up in front of the White House and
walked in.

Speaker 2 (18:00):
How cool.

Speaker 1 (18:01):
And Barber's telling stories. I'm with the President, NBC and
George Herbert Walker Bush and he's giving us the play
by play of his conversation with Garbichef on the ship. Wow,
he had just gotten back from that.

Speaker 2 (18:14):
My goodness.

Speaker 1 (18:15):
I mean, it was like, this is not happening. Then
we go in the east room. He said, hey, Michael,
won't you listen to some Christmas carols? And so I
lost all Christmas carols. And so then he started touching
base with me and writing me and said, just let
me know when you're Washington, car you got to come
and see me. Does this guy do not have anything
else to do? And he was me minute?

Speaker 2 (18:35):
I mean.

Speaker 1 (18:35):
And so I'd call Patty pre sock assistant, and I
would go have hot dogs and we'd sit in all
the office and we chat. I probably visited Dad as much,
if not more than W.

Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, but I'm the crazy crazy w.

Speaker 1 (18:48):
Story is that we go to Kenny Buckport because seniors said,
you got to come to Kenny buck Port.

Speaker 2 (18:53):
That's great.

Speaker 1 (18:53):
So Devi and I go out and there's George W's
there and Laura and they're big tennis players and they
are very competitive. And so it was me and his
partner in the Texas Rangers, and I've totally gone blank
on who it was, but it was him and I
playing father and son and.

Speaker 2 (19:15):
It was fierce. Man.

Speaker 1 (19:16):
They played to win and we beat him and they
weren't happy.

Speaker 2 (19:21):
That's so funny.

Speaker 1 (19:22):
Yeah, and I thought this would be the last time
I got invited, but that's where I met w and
then I got to know him that he obviously became
governor and then he becomes president, and then I was
on the President's prayer team, you know, and prayer for
the president.

Speaker 2 (19:35):
And then I was on a council for the president.

Speaker 1 (19:40):
Just a great thing, but honoring people the people don't
ever hear about that are changing the world, and that
was I was on that committee for over two years,
almost three years, and that was that was awesome.

Speaker 2 (19:51):
Have you met any other presidents?

Speaker 1 (19:54):
I'll spend some time with Reagan. Yeah, oh no way, Yeah,
not a lot. We were the other three, I think
three four times.

Speaker 2 (20:02):
He was still President.

Speaker 1 (20:03):
No, after we got out out, I met Carter, he
was already out. So the only really in Obama. You know.
I met Trump this one time at the Prayer breakfast,
you know, but I don't really know him. So but
it's interesting that the Bush thing, how all that happened,
and I just remained a friend of the family and

(20:25):
I still am.

Speaker 2 (20:27):
That's great. Well, I think that, you know, it's an
awesome thing to stand in the Oval Office and just
look around and the history that's in there, and you know,
you've got some amazing people there, and so what a
great open door. You know. Thinking of Billy Graham, I mean,
he had an impact of dramatic impact on the whole

(20:47):
Bush family. He effectively played a key role in George W.
Bush coming to Christ, or at least recommitting this I've
to Christ. And of course he was there in the
Washington Cathedral after nine to eleven at the request of
President Bush. George W. Bush, and you know, really influenced
that family. Yeah, so that's that's a great thing that

(21:09):
they had. That behind you was a portrait of Johnny Cash.
I'm sure you met him.

Speaker 1 (21:15):
I did actually did a Christmas show with him with
Billy Wow, Billy is June and Johnny, George bever Luchet,
Billy and Ruth and Amy Grant.

Speaker 2 (21:27):
Oh my goodness, no, wonderful. I'm sure I saw.

Speaker 1 (21:31):
Yeah, it was the record like in the eighties or
something earlier, but I think it was the late eighties.
But I just I couldn't believe. I was like, oh
my gosh, I'm on this bull stage. I don't think
it was at the Cove. It might have been at
the Coke what the Cove was back then? And there's
Johnny and he was just so delightful and so was June,
and it was it was a good moment.

Speaker 2 (21:52):
He had such a special voice. You know. People say, well,
he's country. He is country, of course, but I just
feel like, there he's just Johnny Cash. Yeah, he's like
in his own category because no one really sounded quite
like but nobody, you know, he And even as he
was older, even when Johnny's health was failing, he's still

(22:13):
I still like you've been listening to those songs, because
he would interpret a song and present it in such
a way where it just it kind of touches you.
You know, the songs he chosen, the songs he wrote,
as well, and so what like talking with him privately,
what was he like hanging out?

Speaker 1 (22:33):
Was very not it's just very gracious. I don't think
he knew much about me and this earlier in my career,
and I don't didn't expect him to. But he was
very cordial and he's very sweet. And I think Debbie
was there and he had meant to have and and yeah,
he's the legend and my favorite, I mean, my favorite

(22:54):
thing I go. I mean, I love the opposite, all
the old stuff. But I went back and listened to
her again the other day. It's like, because I have
a song kind of like that, and I was working
with my produce You're going to.

Speaker 2 (23:07):
And I can't wait for you hear it.

Speaker 1 (23:09):
But I said, let's go back and let's go back
and watch the video of her because I want them
to hear because we're sort of trying to kind of
skew it in that sort of production. But it was
I forgot how amazing it is.

Speaker 2 (23:22):
Yeah, the video was as powerful as the song was
because he showed these old images of himself when he
was the young, vibrant Johnny, and then he showed himself
as he was and I was a little shocked by that. Actually, well,
members of his family didn't want him to do it
because they thought it didn't present him in the best light.

(23:43):
But I thought it was a beautiful thing to do
at that stage in his career. He's making a statement,
you can have this empire of dirt. I don't want it.
You know, he's talking about what really matters to him.
We all need to come to the conclusion. I recently
did an interview with Rick Rubin. Yeah I heard that. Yeah,
so it's it's coming out soon's Yeah, I want to.

(24:05):
I want to.

Speaker 1 (24:06):
I want to see that part.

Speaker 2 (24:07):
He's a really cool guy, and I really very talented. Well,
no kidding, because I actually know about his work because
I'm a huge Johnny Cash fan, Okay, and I thought
that Johnny's American recordings were the best work of his life.
I kind of feel like Johnny's musical careers like book
ended Early Johnny, which I loved, and then Later Johnny,
which I loved, and and Rick, you know, you know

(24:28):
the story. Johnny was playing this really small venue and
Rick went to see him and said, Hey, I think
I could produce you and do something with you. And
Johnny's looking at this guy with long hair and a beard, like,
what are you going to do for me that no
other producer's? Dad said, come over to my house and
I'll set up some recording the equipment and just play
your guitar and sing your favorite songs. Well, he ended

(24:49):
up using those recordings for the actual because he thought
they were capturing something. So I talked to Rick about
that and I said, I heard a story that you
guys did communion together before you would record. He says, oh, yeah,
that's true. And I said, so, what's the origin of that.
He said, it was actually my idea that I had
seen some preacher talking about it on television how important

(25:13):
communion was. And so I said, Johnny, could we do that?
And we had communion every time we went into record,
and then even after you were done recording, we get
on the phone in two communion together. Wow. So Rick
is very open wow two spiritual things, very open to
the gospel. We had a very interesting conversation. I think

(25:34):
you would be interested. I definitely. So he said, tell
me about Christian music. I said, well, contemporar Christian music.
He says, I've just started listening to it. I said, really.
He goes yeah. I wasn't really that aware of it
until recently, and so I told him kind of the
origin story, how we're a covered chapel and the Jesus

(25:56):
movement was happening. A love song came out and Larry Norman.
I was kind of telling about all these different people,
and he said yeah, and then he said, I listened
to this some of this music, and I feel that
a lot of it kind of sounds the same, and
I feel like there needs to be more like conflict

(26:18):
or things they're dealing with and struggling with. It just
seems too tidy and neat, almost like a Hallmark movie
to me, I thought. I said, Okay, I see what
you're saying. I said, well, some of the earlier music
goes up maybe a little more graphic. I recited some
of the lyrics of that song from Larry and Armo.
Why aren't you looking to Jesus?

Speaker 1 (26:36):
Right?

Speaker 2 (26:37):
I gone to Rhiann Valentine's Day and all that, and
he was listening and then he said, I want to
do an outlaw Christian record. I go really, because yeah,
I said, you should definitely do that. That's fascinating, isn't it. Well, Like,
I mean, you've been there really from the beginning. You
discovered it as it was just starting to blossom. Then

(26:58):
it exploded, then it became an industry, and now it's huge.
As you look at and I know you're a big
part of it, but you're an artist and you look
at you have things you like and maybe things you
don't like. I don't want you to miss anyone or
critique anyone, But how do you feel about the general
direction that Christian music is taking right now? Do you

(27:20):
like what you're seeing? Well, I wish there was more
of this less of that.

Speaker 1 (27:24):
Well, I like it that it's popular, and I like
it because there's millions of people here in the gospel
for the first time that's true, like the force right thing.
I mean, that's just a phenomena. I think there's some
healthy things and I've got some concerns. Yeah, you know,
it just and it's maybe the social media thing, and
it just feels like there's a lot of celebrity and

(27:48):
I don't think we're called to be a celebrity. And
you can sit there and talk all day long that
you're not a celebrity, but action speak louder than words
a little bit, you know, But you know, it's just
my opinion, and I don't. Again, I don't. I don't
want to know anybody out of the bus. I go
back and look at the stuff I did in the
early days. How many records do we sell? How many

(28:09):
people are coming to the show? Did we sell out
the arena? You know, all those immature things that I
sort of went through, And I don't really care about
that stuff anymore, you know, so thank god, I'm growing up.

Speaker 2 (28:19):
I'm not all there yet, but you know, I'll just
say this.

Speaker 1 (28:23):
One of my greatest goals in life, and I'm almost there,
is that I'll never ever be offended by anyone ever again.

Speaker 2 (28:29):
Wow, And I'm getting there, you know. Really, I'm going
to try to offend you right now.

Speaker 1 (28:34):
Come on, let's do it. But no, I think there's some.

Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (28:39):
And again I'm trying not to be judgmental. And I
know I'm like, I'm not the new kid on the block.
You know, I've been doing this for forty three years.

Speaker 2 (28:47):
Well that's why you should say something.

Speaker 1 (28:48):
Well, I do because I feel like I feel like
I had this crazy I've known this for a long time.
Don finto my mentor, who's ninety six years old, Wow,
has talked to me about this for years that I
think I'm supposed to father.

Speaker 2 (29:04):
Yeah, and that's part part of my role.

Speaker 1 (29:07):
And I think I'm going to continue to make records.
I think my best work is and I'm having a
lot of fun doing it. But I don't really care
if it sales. I don't care if it's the number one.

Speaker 2 (29:16):
I don't care if it's on the radio.

Speaker 1 (29:17):
It's like, so all that stuff is a very freaking
place to be. I get lots of people, lots of
these kids comeing. How'd you do it? You're married to
the same woman for almost forty five years this September.
How do you surrouse success? And I feel like I'm
supposed to sew into these We.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
Answer to that question because that is a good question.
How have you had a long lasting marriage and survived
all of this? Yeah? Well others haven't. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (29:45):
Uh, well, first of all, I married a great woman, Okay,
who's a woman of God. Yes, I mean just like
makes me raise my game up because every morning when
I walk into the kitchen, she's said the word just
the old testban dude, She's just in the word every singlemore.

Speaker 2 (30:04):
Her prayer. Life's amazing.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
She's three prayer groups. We have a prayer groups that's
been together for thirty five years. I've had a mentor
for forty two years.

Speaker 2 (30:15):
That's a ninety six year old guy.

Speaker 1 (30:17):
He's still alive and still kicking and sharp as ever.

Speaker 2 (30:19):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (30:21):
And then just who do you surround yourself? You surround
yourself with good people? Are you surrounding yourself with nots
of good people? And there's ramifications of both of those.
Surround yourself with great people. Then you got a good
chance of being able to do this pretty well.

Speaker 2 (30:41):
You know, well, younger Michael found out what happened when
you got around the wrong people that influenced you in
a bad way. But then later, God, I think you've
just revealed part of it, which is you're grounded and
connected with real people. It's very easy in what you do,
and even what I do, is to be isolated and

(31:01):
be in sort of a bubble. And you know, your
wife's and prayer groups, and you're you have a mentor,
you have someone you listen to, someone who probably could
correct you if necessarily you could ask advice from. I
know you're involved in the church. We've talked about that before.
Because a lot of times when you're you know, you
can be a Christian artist traveling all the time, not
be a part of a church, not be reading your

(31:24):
Bible every day, not be just living really like a
normal Christian to start with, because it becomes a career.
And it's not bad that it's your career, but I
think it needs to start from your relationship with God
for it to be effective.

Speaker 1 (31:40):
Well, you have to fight for it, because I'll just
go on record and say it's a it's a wonderful
and a strange life. Yes, I mean, it's the perksure golly,
the fact I get to do what I love to do,
and that, in my humble opinion, I think music is

(32:00):
the most powerful universal language in the world, and that
you're music has completely changed millions of people. That blows
my mind, and I know that's not me. But then
it's the sort of accolades and all the people put
you on a pedestal and to done, and then you
try to lower the temp on the celebrity thing, and

(32:24):
sometimes that doesn't always work, and then you don't go anywhere.
And then and then I like being by myself. If
I'm an introvert and an extrovert you know, yeah, and so,
but I know every night I do. I do it
every night when I go out there on God. I
know this is not about me. So two things I'm

(32:45):
gonna walk. I'm I'm clothing myself with humility to me
and let my posture be beautiful to you. And any
admiration or any stuff coming at me, I just I
deflect it. I just deflect the glory because I know
this is not about me. So may you be glorified
everything I say and everything I do.

Speaker 2 (33:05):
Well, you know, coming back to Billy Graham, I mean,
he is one of the probably the most famous person
I ever met. And I spent time with him as
you did. And I remember one time we did a
crew say, well he's preached. I was just there Portland, Oregon.
So we come off the stage and there are people
lined up on both sides, you know, just in awe
of Billy. Like it's almost like Moses was walking into

(33:26):
the midst of the bill. He's kind of had his
head down. And we get in the car and so
Billy's in the back seat, Franklin's sitting next to him.
I'm writing Shotgun. You may remember T. W. Wilson, he
was driving the car. So we're driving out, so I
turned around back. I said, Billy, that was a great
message tonight. He looks at me and says, well, it's

(33:47):
just gospel. We turn back around. Well, I know, they
thought maybe i'll talk about a particular point. Billy said,
I loved it when you said Christ can resensitize your conscience.
And Billy said, well he can. I just turned back around,
So here's my lesson. And he didn't want to be complimented.

(34:08):
He did his job now. But then we go back
to his hotel room and someone gave us some roast
beef sandwiches at the beginning of the night, which were
not completely cold. So we go back to his home.
We're going to eat these sandwiches. Billy disappears in a room,
comes back out in his pajamas, in his dress shoes,
so I guess he left his slippers at home. He

(34:28):
was surrounded by these guys he's known for years. They're
telling old stories, they're laughing, like he wanted to be
just regular guy. And I thought, this is really an
important key. And I was with him at public places
and people would approach him. He was always approachable. How
are you in fact, when you talk to Billy, you know,
you would ask him questions. So Billy, tell me about

(34:49):
when you met gold in my ear, or tell me
about when you met Muhammad Ali. And he would say
a couple of things, and then he'd say, tell me
about yourself. But it was genuine, right. Those are great qualities.
So that's good to be aware of that, you know.
I think in the early days of the Jesus Movement,
a lot of our songs spoke to non believers. Really,

(35:13):
I think in its inception, it was designed to just
express what we were experiencing. So these musicians, you know,
wrote these songs that talked about it. Love sung. As
an example, they had a song two Hands, you may
remember it. The lyrics. We're all gathered here because we
all believe. If there's a doubt or in the crowd,
we ask you not to leave. Give a listen to

(35:33):
the story, hear the message that we bring. Let the
face all up inside you lift your voice with us
and sing, accept them with your whole heart, and use
your own two hands. With one, reach out to Jesus
with the other. Bring a friend. So if you would
go to church, you would sit there and kind of
hear the gospel, and so what I would like to
see more of in Christian music. I love the praise,

(35:54):
I love the worship. It's fantastic. We have it in
the Crusades, and I think it just moves people powerfully
and prepares their heart for the gospel. But I would
like to hear more songs almost addressed to a non believer,
say this is what has happened. Could be testimony, it
can be gospel proclamation done in an artistic way.

Speaker 1 (36:17):
You know, I totally agree.

Speaker 2 (36:19):
You know, you should write a song about when you
were seventeen years old and having the drug over this
because no one would expect a song like that from you,
but I mean that's part of your life and kind
of like you know, because it's been said, success builds
walls and failure builds bridges. You know, when you're all
that in the bag of chips and I've had all

(36:39):
these great things happen. Okay, you're successful. Who can relate
to that? But when you talk about struggles and failures,
everyone can relate to that.

Speaker 1 (36:46):
Yeah, I have a couple songs like that on my record.
You're writing, Yeah, wow, it's not released yet, but okay,
pretty like that pretty raw. Well, that's that would be
surprising and powerful, and so I encourage you to continue
on doing that. Than you So you started something called
rocket Town.

Speaker 2 (37:04):
Tell me what that is?

Speaker 1 (37:05):
You do? Crazy story nineteen ninety one. I was in
a little red Miata. Thought I was having a midlife crisis.
Probably not, but there was a cruising problem in Franklintonnessee,
where I live, and they started doing curfews, and I
just thought, and let me just back up and say that.

(37:26):
I thought, if the whole music thing doesn't work out
for me, I'm going to be a youth pastor.

Speaker 2 (37:32):
Wow, that's so cool because of what I went through.

Speaker 1 (37:35):
Yeah, I can identify, and I think I can so
I can identify the whole drug thing whatever whatever. Nineteen
ninety one, I just released Go I Show a Man record,
and I going out and I park on the corner.
All these kids are cruising and I hear the voice
of God. I don't say it very often, like it's
almost an audible thing. Build it and they'll come. I went,

(37:58):
that's the Kevin costnerman.

Speaker 2 (38:01):
Yeah, I feel it's fill of dreams.

Speaker 1 (38:02):
I can't hear it. Build it, they'll come. Build it.

Speaker 2 (38:05):
They'll come.

Speaker 1 (38:06):
And I thought, and I started flushing out my egg
on bill facility and impact the youth of the city,
not just Franklin, but Nashville, and I did all this research.
They said it wouldn't work. We opened up in ninety
four in a little coffee house and we moved to
this church that gave us their building, and we had

(38:26):
six hundred people show up the first night. No advertisement
had the big things waving in the air, the big lights,
you know, and it was back then it was the rave.
The rays were the big thing, the whole dancing thing.
So we just tried to pull kids in, tried to
make it very non Christian from you know.

Speaker 2 (38:46):
Being like a Bible club.

Speaker 1 (38:48):
We were trying to attract kids who don't know the Lord,
and we made lots of mistakes God trying to be
all things to all people. And then it's a long story.
I'm going to write a book about it one day.

Speaker 2 (38:58):
But what are we closing?

Speaker 1 (38:59):
Ninety seven Columbine happened. We were still meeting people kids
in coffee houses, and Columbine happened. And I came back
and thought, if we had had a rocket town in Littleton, Colorado,
I think we could have prevented that tragedy. So we
reopened and I had a very good friend who I
can't say his name, I'll tell you later, who said

(39:20):
I'll match whatever you can raise. Wow in three months,
and we raised two point three million dollars and then
he matched it with two point four George Herbert walker
Bush was my campaign chairman, AH, and we built this
facility in downtown Nashville. We had to move one time,
just three blocks away, and we're still in the heart
of Nashville. Everything is brand new around us. They've torn

(39:42):
everything down and we're right in the heart of it.
And we're seeing kids come to Christ every single week.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
So that's been going on a long time, long time.
There's a quote you gave him an interview. The greatest
joy of my life is not another music award, but
hearing a kid tell me I was contemplating suicide, but
I came to Rocket Town, heard the truth, and got
love done. That's a good statement. Don't get much better
than that. And you've seen that happen.

Speaker 1 (40:06):
Weeks happened.

Speaker 2 (40:07):
What's more important saving life?

Speaker 1 (40:10):
Yeah?

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (40:13):
We have indoor skate park and there's there's a church
that beats here. We have a we have a music studio,
we have a dance deal. We have after school programs
and out kids were starving. We have a food program.
We have a lot of kids for the projects that come.

Speaker 2 (40:26):
But we have all.

Speaker 1 (40:28):
We got them all and they love it because they
come because they're not judged, and every staff member knows
everything about them. Their dog's name, everything, typical kid, bomb's prostitute,
dad's in jail.

Speaker 2 (40:44):
You know so.

Speaker 1 (40:45):
And we're seeing some really beautiful things happen.

Speaker 2 (40:48):
Have you met Alice Cooper?

Speaker 1 (40:50):
I haven't know Alice.

Speaker 2 (40:51):
So Alice, he's got We kind of the same thing.
It's such a similar story.

Speaker 1 (40:54):
He's been he's been to rocket Town. I've been to
his plate. He thought, we've we've talked a lot.

Speaker 2 (40:59):
He was overdosing an a He said, a rock of
cocaine the size of a softball, and it was so bad,
he said, he looked in the marinsaw blood coming out
of his eyes. He said, I don't know if I
so hallucinated it or if it was real, but all
I knew was I was going to die. And he
called out to God and he got right with the Lord.
And then later he started something very similar to what

(41:22):
you're talking about. I love that. Yeah. So now let
me ask you some kind of I don't know how
to describe these questions.

Speaker 1 (41:31):
Well, on theology on me, I'll be in trouble.

Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yes, okay, what's what's the order of end time events? No?
Just explain explain the sovereignty of God? No, kidd okay,
So here's some simple questions. Okay. Now, you've been a
lot of famous people. You don't brag I like that
about you, but you have been a lot of famous people.
Who were you most starstruck by? Like? Oh, whoa tongue tied? Maybe,

(41:55):
like I don't know what to say.

Speaker 1 (41:56):
Probably John Williams, Who's my musical hero. Who's what a
talent writers? You see that documentary on him, nievable cry
every time I'm watching.

Speaker 2 (42:06):
I didn't realize how many songs he had written until
I watched that.

Speaker 1 (42:09):
Melodies the melodies, and he's still my musical hero.

Speaker 2 (42:12):
Wow. When you write a song, do you usually start
with a melody? With the lyric? Does it vary from
song to song?

Speaker 1 (42:20):
Usually a melody? Sometimes there's an idea that I mean,
I don't know. One day, I'm one hour, I'm writing
a worship song. The next day, I'm writing some jazz number,
and then I'm writing a cinematic piece of music. You know,
I've scored films, yes, you know. I've done two instrumental records.
You know, I just never know what's going to come out,
you know. So, but John's been the he's been.

Speaker 2 (42:40):
Have you met him? I have? So that was how
you were a star trek By I was little. Did
you say to him?

Speaker 1 (42:45):
I just said, you have no I mean, do you
know who you are?

Speaker 2 (42:48):
I don't think so.

Speaker 1 (42:49):
And that's okay. You know, you just had no idea,
have a bunch of an influence. You've been in my life.
Thank you. That's what do you do. You can't really
start a cors I just think, well, thank you very much.
I appreciate that.

Speaker 2 (43:00):
So, yeah, the guy I was the most star struck
by is on it. I was on a beach in
Malli and I'm sitting there. In my backpack is a cassette.
This marks it in time of the Beatles Love Songs.
It was a re release of their love songs. Who
sits behind Me? George Harrison? Why I hear his voice?
That familiar Liverpudlian accent. So I was so nervous. What

(43:22):
do I say that George Harrison, because I'm a huge
Beatles fan. So I turned around and I said, appreciate
all the music you've done over the years. He's just
wearing sunglasses. He just looks at me. He doesn't even respond.
He literally didn't acknowledge my existence. I turned back around.
It's ky like Billy in the car. Now, I think, okay,
forget it. So then the day went by. We're down

(43:44):
to the beach and actually it's funny. His son Danny
didn't know how to boogie board, and my oldest son,
Christopher was really good at it. So he spent the
day showing Danny how to catch waves. So it's time
to leave, and this is the era of the Traveling Woolberries.
So I brought that up and said, oh, you know,
I wasn't giving up of this guy. You know, I

(44:04):
love the Woolberg's. Then he came to life. Then he
started talking and oh, you're going to love the next record,
and so it's a nice conversation. Then I read I
was looking at a biography on him and it said
George never liked to talk about the Beatles, and I
brought the long topic cut.

Speaker 1 (44:23):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (44:24):
So what what makes you angry? Uh?

Speaker 1 (44:30):
Probably the injustice that goes on in the world. There's
a lot of it. Sex slave, Yeah, the trafficking just
boils my blood. Yeah, and people get by with it.

Speaker 2 (44:46):
Yeah, So a lot of injustice in this world, there is.
So what makes you laugh? My grandkids? Yeah, same for me. Yeah.
Now this is you've heard this question before. It was
kind of an interesting one. If you could have dinner
with anyone alive or gone, maybe three other guests, you

(45:07):
and three other guests, who would you want to have
dinner with? Hang out with, like three three guys anyway,
could be C. S Lewis. I would say, he can't
have Jesus.

Speaker 1 (45:17):
He can't have Jesus.

Speaker 2 (45:18):
We know he's going to be number one. I would
say C.

Speaker 1 (45:21):
S Lewis is probably a pick.

Speaker 2 (45:22):
Charles Neston, Yeah, he's cool.

Speaker 1 (45:24):
And Ronald Reagan. Oh yeah, when you got to meet
Reagan for But I.

Speaker 2 (45:29):
Would go to that dinner.

Speaker 1 (45:32):
Uh. I'm a huge Wagon fan.

Speaker 2 (45:34):
Yeah, me too. And I to watch Charlton Heston well
so am I too?

Speaker 1 (45:38):
Yeah the movies, But but I love going back and
watching these YouTube clips of Reagan, these little snippett of
the speeches that are unbelievable, just amazing.

Speaker 2 (45:50):
He was incredible. He was I mean, I was thinking,
if they were going to put another face, I'm Mount Rushmore.
It should be.

Speaker 1 (45:56):
Rich, should Began.

Speaker 2 (45:57):
I mean I can there's other others you could consider,
but Ronald Reagan, I mean he changed things in the
nation in a significant way. He is one of a kind.
So like, when what's your favorite kind of go to
food when you're hungry, Like, oh man, this is because
you're so skinny. Have you ever been overweight?

Speaker 1 (46:20):
Oh? Maybe in the early days. Yeah, maybe. When I
first moved to Nashville, I was like one eighty or
something like that. But I lost it, you know, I
got to metabolism to you. You know, I love sushi.
I have to be careful with parasites and that kind
of thing, you know. And because I've had some issues
with you, especially when you got to be We'll go

(46:41):
out with Frank and we're all around the world and
eating all this crazy Asian food and gas, they gotta
be really careful.

Speaker 2 (46:45):
An loves the McDonald's. They believe me, I mean, it's real.
He actually wrote a post the other day and he's
say McDonald's, please keep the fried apple pie and make
sure it's the fried one. Then he says it's actually
lower calorie than the big one. I did never knew this,
and it was like a whole post he had cleating

(47:07):
with McDonald's to keep that bread. It's amazing. It's amazing.
So sushi, that's it.

Speaker 1 (47:13):
You know, this is what I really love. It comes
to food. Deb and I have a new hobby and
we've had it for five or six years. We build
a greenhouse on our farm. We have a two hundred
acre farm twenty minutes of our house, and with this
massive garden. And like the other day, I picked two
hundred green beans and thought I'd got them all, and

(47:33):
then found another one hundred and fifty. I picked eight squash,
I picked four zucchini. And you take that food and
you eat it that night. It doesn't get any better.
You're eating food right out of your garden. That's my
favorite thing to do when it comes to see that.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
And the green beans can be really sweet, can't they can? Amazing? Yeah,
So I asked Marco Rubio, what is your favorite go
to food? Chicken, palm and pizza.

Speaker 1 (48:04):
That's amazing.

Speaker 2 (48:05):
Those are comfort food.

Speaker 1 (48:06):
So I do love pizza, but I like healthy pizza,
you know, but I don't eat a lot of bread.

Speaker 2 (48:10):
What is healthy pizza like? What would your pizza order be?

Speaker 1 (48:13):
Uh, it would probably be be well, it would be
dough from Italy?

Speaker 2 (48:19):
Okay, okay?

Speaker 1 (48:21):
Yeah, but you know you can go Costco and you
can you can find some of these things where this
dough is from Italy.

Speaker 2 (48:28):
Italy. It makes a difference to me.

Speaker 1 (48:31):
I can taste the difference, soil, I can get it.

Speaker 2 (48:35):
How about their tomatoes, Like a tomato from Italy. It's
not the most beautiful thing you've ever seen, but the
flavor at the flavor, well, it's a fruit, isn't it? Well,
it is it is?

Speaker 1 (48:45):
It is? Okay, but yeah, I would take it. I
would take it something from Italy, and then I would
add other things like basil from our garden.

Speaker 2 (48:54):
I would put.

Speaker 1 (48:55):
Garlic on it, yes, and I would probably put olive
oil on it because I'm a big alder.

Speaker 2 (49:00):
I want a pepperoni pizza.

Speaker 1 (49:01):
That's not going to be the one that.

Speaker 2 (49:04):
Sounds pretty good though. I think anything pizza I love it.
But the pizza in Italy is so amazing. And it's great.
So Keith, tell me what like when you're listening to
the do you listen to the radio? Like not much,
not that much, but you hear songs everywherever while we
go we hear songs? Are there songs like? I have

(49:26):
a thing on Apple It's Gregg's playlist and it just
picks songs that it thinks I will like and a
lot of the times it's pretty good. I think these
are good because I have a lot of It'll be
like a Frank Sinatra song, a Beatles song, and then
some of the random thing because I like all kinds
of things. And I guess maybe if you go next,
it just found out, Oh he doesn't like that song.

(49:48):
I'm not sure how it works, right, But like what
is if you hear a song on the radio go
oh I love this and you still lean in it
and to listen even though you've heard it a million times.
You mentioned I want to hold your hand? Did you?
I did earlier? What would be like a song? Oh,
I love that song?

Speaker 1 (50:04):
I would say. I would say probably anything from the eighties, Yeah, eighties,
like like I'm I have a hard time fun things
that I like.

Speaker 2 (50:11):
Honestly, I did too, but like I'm loving the new.

Speaker 1 (50:16):
Keith Urban record. Oh well, and it's yacht rock. Yes,
and you will know. There's maybe two new songs everything. Yes,
you will know, and it's incredible.

Speaker 2 (50:27):
I heard him do a recording of Summer Breeze by
Seals and Cross on that record. It's very close to
the original, Yes it is. I always thought that was
a great song, great song.

Speaker 1 (50:38):
Yeah, so there's a bunch of great songs on that record.

Speaker 2 (50:40):
I didn't even know there was yacht rock until I
saw some dunk on it. Oh yeah, I know that.
I mean sure that music.

Speaker 1 (50:46):
It's a strange title that they've called this whole thing
yacht rock.

Speaker 2 (50:50):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, but that's a certain sound I was.
You know, I'm a little older than you, so I'm
more into like mid sixties music, seventies music, but I
like music from the eighties. Were you at any Loo fan?
That was yeah, Jeff Lynn, that.

Speaker 1 (51:04):
Lynn and Doodie Brothers, Michael McDonald. I loved British music. Yeah,
just a lot of that stuff was contagious, you know,
but the eighties they were just great moments from the
eighties were the melodies.

Speaker 2 (51:17):
Career was taking off.

Speaker 1 (51:18):
Two of the eighties it started taking off.

Speaker 2 (51:21):
That had been sort of your pop career es right.

Speaker 1 (51:24):
Well, eighties and through the nineties. The worship record didn't
come out till two thousand and one, which was released
on nine eleven, believe it or not, of all days.
But yeah, I was a worship leader for nineteen years
and still doing pop music, you know. But yeah, the
British thing was a big thing for me, like I loved. Yes,

(51:44):
I was a big Kansas fan because.

Speaker 2 (51:45):
I loved became a Christian. Yeah, I met Carrie. Yeah, yeah,
long time ago. He formed a band after Kansas called eighty.
It was like a Christian.

Speaker 1 (51:55):
Had all those records.

Speaker 2 (51:57):
Yeah, And so we had them at our church and
they're doing their own songs, and I said, can you
do carry On my Wayward Sun? He goes at church.
I said absolutely, And the guitar solo one carry on
my Wayward Son that carried does this insane? So they're
playing it. They blew our entire sound system out. I
think maybe it was worth to hear that song.

Speaker 1 (52:18):
I bet that was a great I thought that it
would be thinking that song that bothers me in church.

Speaker 2 (52:22):
You know, it's pretty carry On My Wayward son, There'll
be peace when you were done, you know. So it
worked out pretty well. So what is your Are you
a coffee guy?

Speaker 1 (52:31):
I'm not a coffee not a comedy guy, green tea guy,
loved to both dev and I are green tea drinkers.

Speaker 2 (52:39):
Wow, you're a very healthy person. I think I may
be the opposite of that. You and all these food
I like t fine, but I like coffee. And but
though your description of your perfect pizza was pretty APPEALI
and I have to say, so, are you a movie fan?

Speaker 1 (52:58):
I am going to have a heart time finding something
that I.

Speaker 2 (53:01):
Love movies today? What are some like? I define my
favorite movie as if I see it on TV, even
though I've seen it a million times, if I keep
watching it, that means it's one of my favorite films.
Like Tombstone. If Tombstone's on my TV, I'm gonna watch
it till the commercial because it does so many amazing lights.
Or Brave Heart or The Patriot, I'm gonna just watch

(53:23):
that movie. Right. Do you have movies like that? Like?
What would they be? Well? Writers have Lost Stars?

Speaker 1 (53:27):
My fast of all time? Yeah, that's eighties, isn't that
eighty one?

Speaker 2 (53:32):
Yeah? And then I just.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
Loved the Star Wars, you know, Yeah, it got all
track a little bit, you know, Empire strikes back, you see.
I think probably the best of all of them. Right,
So I was a Star Wars fan. I still like
any Ad Jones and Last Crusade, Jean Greenery and hair Support.

Speaker 2 (53:47):
Did you you met John Williams? Did you ever meet Spielbert?

Speaker 1 (53:49):
I never met Spielberg.

Speaker 2 (53:50):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (53:51):
I loved ET, still love ET. I mean Schindler's List.
I mean it's a movie, The Dar. I mean, it's
so hard to watch. I'll never forget. I was in
I was in Orange County. I was at a movie
theater all by myself. I saw a long time ago,
and it just and I've not been able. I don't
think I've watched the whole thing since then.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
Yeah, I rewatched it recently, and I thought this is
such because it was shot in black and white. Yeah,
except that opening scene with a little girl. They had
her in a red coat, and so you're kind of
following this little girl in the red coat, and then
at the end you're hoping she survives, of course, and
then you see she was killed by the Nazis, And
that was a really powerful way to personalize it, and

(54:36):
you know, amazing performances and heartbreaking. But the scene at
the end when Chindler says I could have saved just
one more I've used that as an illustration for evangelism,
you know, Yeah, we can reach one more person. Who
are people that you've some unexpected people maybe you've been
able to share the gospel with. Do those opportunities come

(54:58):
up when you meet different folks?

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Yeah, a lot, well not as much as I'd like. Yeah,
I will never forget when I don't know why I
go to this story every time. I'll never forget being
I was hosting the VH one count Down, which I
caught a lot of flak for, was being Luther Vandross.
Oh yeah, hosting the VH one count Down during my
Why would.

Speaker 2 (55:20):
You catch flak for that?

Speaker 1 (55:21):
Well, because there was a Budwiser commercial and so I
had stores in Alabama pulled my records.

Speaker 2 (55:26):
Wow, all that kind of.

Speaker 1 (55:28):
That's a whole And I would never debate because I
didn't think there was anything to debate, saying all that
I'm in the makeup here and there's this beautiful woman
doing my makeup, and I said, God, just keep me focused.
Keep me focused on just and I got a lot,
I got team around me, but she's doing my makeup.
We just start talking and then she says, can I
just ask you a question? I said yeah. She said,

(55:49):
there's something different value.

Speaker 2 (55:52):
Really.

Speaker 1 (55:56):
I said, well, do you want to know what it is?
She said I do, And I said, I'm in love
with Jesus and he loves me and he loves you.
And she started to cry.

Speaker 2 (56:07):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (56:08):
I never knew what happened because it was sort of
like they got me out of the chair when I
was like to meet you, and it was kind of
that big So the seed moment, I've never forgotten her,
and I hope and trust that she gave a Hart's
An award.

Speaker 2 (56:23):
That's the best kind of witness when you effectively earn
the right to share your faith by the way that.

Speaker 1 (56:28):
You live, and that's what we do.

Speaker 2 (56:29):
Rocket down. Yeah.

Speaker 1 (56:31):
To me, it's like, yeah, this is my second greatest
goal other than not being offended.

Speaker 2 (56:37):
Like when Don Finto.

Speaker 1 (56:38):
When Don Finto walks into a room, yeah, the whole
atmosphere changes, just like and it's not because e Drike's carriagejees,
you know, you've got the sort of got them to
go up there's something And I want to be able
to walk into a room of people I've never met
and they go, whata what's going on here? That's amazing,
That's what That's a big dream in prayer of mine.

Speaker 2 (57:00):
Wow, that's a great goal, you know, Michael, I want
to just thank you for, you know, being such a
great model. You talked about being like a father figure.
You know, you've been a great model, not just in
Christian music, but just in the church as a representative
of Jesus Christ and the many environments you've been in
that could turn many ahead and sabotage many a career,

(57:22):
sabotage many a marriage, and you've held your course and
you've been faithful. And I'm going to thank you for
doing that because it's great to have you out there
representing us.

Speaker 1 (57:34):
Well, thank you.

Speaker 2 (57:35):
And you know how I know you're one of the
good guys because you're dressed all in white. Well I'm
not going to forget that. Yeah, And I don't know
what that says about me being dressed in black. But
in closing, who is Jesus Christ to you and why
should a person follow him?

Speaker 1 (57:56):
Well, he's the lover of my soul.

Speaker 2 (57:59):
And as Dawn.

Speaker 1 (58:02):
Spoke about it the other day on his little Facebook page,
it's the Romans three thing. It's like, it's like he knew,
he knew that we couldn't. We couldn't do it. We
couldn't do it. Obviously, the law is there for a reason.
But he knew we couldn't do it. So by faith,
he's going to make us righteous. That's astounding to me.

(58:26):
And I'm going to give you righteousness. If you have faith,
I'm going to give you righteousness. That's the greatest news.
That's what the world needs to hear. And I just
just if I wake up everyonere and going God, I
just can't believe up such a mess and still trying
to pull together. And you just love me regardless. And
so he's the perfect father. He's a good father. Not

(58:50):
to borrow from the song and uh and I know
it be on the shadow of doubt. It doesn't matter
how I feel. Sometimes you don't. You don't feel it.
Sometimes there's some weeks ago back on God, where are you?

Speaker 2 (59:02):
Like?

Speaker 1 (59:03):
Why do I feel like I'm in the funk? I
feel a little off? What is that? But I know
in the midst of all that he still loves me.

Speaker 2 (59:14):
Well, thanks for doing this, you welcome, Thank you for
hanging out with you. It's good