In part two of this conversation with Pastor Greg Laurie, Pastor Chuck Swindoll opens up about what he'd do differently across six decades of ministry—chief among them, saying yes sooner, affirming more, criticizing less, and bringing his wife Cynthia into full partnership years before he actually did.
He names the four temptations every pastor faces and explains why the last one never stops requiring vigilance. Pastor Greg asks what text Chuck would preach if he had one sermon left, and the answer will surprise you. Along the way: memorized hymns, mentors from Dallas Seminary, the rise of antisemitism, and a tender word about caring for Cynthia through dementia. This conversation closes with Chuck's prayer over Pastor Greg's family and ministry.
Subscribe for more conversations like this on The Greg Laurie Show.
Timestamps
00:33 Intro: one last sermon
01:03 Preaching after losing his son
02:38 Fearing for his other children
04:03 Preaching to himself through grief
05:35 Any regrets looking back?
07:06 Chuck: say yes sooner, affirm more
10:00 Nearly ruining his marriage with Cynthia
14:50 Loneliness in ministry
15:27 Four temptations: sloth, silver, self, sex
22:30 The final sermon: grace
24:35 Lightning round: food, movies, Lincoln
29:38 The rise of antisemitism
30:11 Hymns he sings while driving
32:36 Sitting under giants at Dallas Seminary
38:28 Cynthia's dementia and advice on marriage
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Life audio. You can know this grace personally. You don't
have to change anything. All you've got to do is
come to Christ. Let Jesus become your channel to God.
Let him become your own personal Lord and savior.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Last time on the Greg Glory Show, I sat down
with the legendary pastor Chuck Swindahl. You look back and
you realize that God had a plan for us even
before we were born.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I just think, Lord, you're too good. How could you
use a a kid that wasn't even wanted like you've
used me, like you're using Greg and put a absolute privilege.
So you lost your boy finally got back on your feet.
(01:12):
Was there a difference in you're preaching.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yes, you asked me if I took time off. I
took a little time off, but I had this crusade
scheduled two weeks after this event happened, and people ask me, well,
are you going to do the crusade? And I said,
of course, I'm going to do the crusade because when
I was preaching, because you know, the Bible says Jesus said,
there is joy in the presence of the angels over
(01:38):
one sinner that comes to repentance. You know, I think
that people in heaven may know more than we think
they know, and there is an awareness in heaven of
sinners coming to repentance. Every time a person repents, Heaven rejoices.
And I thought, you know, is my son watching me
from heaven? I don't know. I know the Lord's watching me.
(01:59):
I know my son is in heaven.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
That's a good statement.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
We don't know, Yeah, we don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We talk about people watching all that, Well, they've seeing
a lot of bad stuff and they're watching this earth,
you know, but.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
They're aware if they're aware of people coming to Christ.
And so that was the one place where I found
relief was when I was preaching and I wasn't thinking
about myself or thinking about my pain. I was focused
on the Lord and on the gospel and on people
hearing the gospel. That that was I found, strangely, a
(02:34):
renewed strength, a willingness to do things I would have
never done before, a willingness to take risks.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Let me ask you something here, Yeah, did you start
fearing for your other children?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, I have one other son.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Oh you have one of his songs?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Did you start thinking, oh, be careful, be careful.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Oh yeah, for sure, Oh yes, yes, of course I
was very aware of.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
That premonitions like this could be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, but it was more of just because my son,
my younger son, Johnathan, he also had been a prodigal,
and his brother Christopher, the night before he went to
heaven said, did Jonathan, Jonathan, you need to get right
with the Lord? What's it going to take? And after
(03:21):
Christopher died That's I'm not saying God took Christopher so
Jonathan message would come to christ But it was more like,
despite that horrible tragedy, that is what it took to
open Jonathan's eyes. And not only did Jonathan recommit his
life to the Lord, but he felt it called a ministry,
(03:42):
and so it was you could see how God works
these things. You know. I love your teaching on the
Sovereignty of God and Romans eight twenty eight in particular.
I never get tired of thinking about Romans eight twenty eight.
It's just so rich and deep.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
And it isn't all good, but it all works together
for good.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, all things work together they do for good. They do.
I mean the classic example is Joseph to his brothers,
you meant this or evil God and mat it for good.
But there are things that happen in our life that
are bad. I'll always think of this as a bad thing.
I'll always think of this as a tragedy, the death
of my son. However, I would also acknowledge that many
(04:25):
good things have come into my life and out of
this that God has brought. So I don't have to
understand all of that. But He, you know, as Scripture says,
all things are His servants, and so I just believe
that it's in process. And there are times, Chuck, after
it happened, I'd be driving along and I would have
(04:46):
a memory. Something would remind me of Christopher, and I
would say, I'll never see him again. I'll never hear
his voice again. And I would start going into a
dark hole and I would literally preach to myself and
I would literally say, Greg, shut up, Well you're going
to see him again, Yeah, I said. The Bible says,
oh boy, I am the resurrection and the life. He
(05:08):
that believes in me, though he were dead, Yet shall
he live. Whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die.
You're gonna see your son again, you know. Immediately, as
I would just quote this scripture to myself. It would
lift me out of that pit because I would get
a heavenly perspective. And so I've tried to take this
horrible event and use it as a tool good to
(05:30):
help people and to show them that God can walk
with you through the most unbelievable difficulties in life.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Okay, switch over. Yes, what would you do differently if
you had these fifty years to live over again?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Wow, I've never been asked that before.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You don't have to be profiled.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I would hang out with you more. What would I
do differently?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, we'd have fun. I'll tell you that.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
You know, I don't want to say that I wouldn't
do anything differently, But for the most part, I don't
know that I would do anything more. So you don't
have any regrets? Well, yes, little, I mean things here
and there, but there's not any big thing in life
or I would say I should have done this. Or no,
(06:19):
I can't say I have any major regrets. Okay, that's
probably not good. Billy Graham once was asked you know
what he would do differently? He said, I would preach
half as much. I would spend more time praying, more
time studying the word of God and telling the Lord
how much I love them. Well, I could certainly say that.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Should I have prayed more throughout my life? Yes, everybody
could say. Have I worried too much at times? Absolutely? Yes?
Have I been impulsive at times I'm run ahead of
the Lord? Sure I have. But by and large I
would say that I've found the will of God and
I've sought to walk in it, And so I can't
(07:02):
say I would do anything differently for the most part.
What about you, Oh, I would have said yes.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
More often, sooner than no, to what opportunities open doors,
stepping into something that I never dreamed I would do.
(07:34):
I wouldn't be as reluctant. I think that goes back
to my very very early years. Yes, I'm not trying
to excuse it, but my brother was not reluctant man.
He would take on you know. He went to a
mission field thirty three and a half years in Buenos Aires.
And and when you go down there, when I go
(07:56):
down there, I'm known as Orvo's brother, you know. And
he just been a boor right to it. I was
a little too cautious. Sometimes I was a little too
strong with my children. I would have been a little
(08:16):
I should have been quicker to say, yeah, that'd be fine, Yeah,
that'd be fine. Cynthia helped me with that. She said
to me one day, you know, honey, you and I
are both really cautious about our children, and for that reason,
we started saying no right away to most things they
(08:38):
want to do. We need to stop that. And came
across the whole idea of a yes face when I
wrote my book on Grace, yes and we needed to
develop a yes face. And I think I probably frowned
too much. Rather than gave my children a yes face
(08:59):
and told him I would have probably told him earlier
how proud I am of them, how pleased I am
with them. I would have affirmed more and criticized less.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I would have.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Been more patient. Why are we so impatient?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
It's just.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Our Lord is so patient with us, and we turn
around and expected the next thing to perfection from others
or they failed at this. Okay, did the world stop turning?
You know? Did the did the sun stop burning? I mean,
(09:44):
life goes on. And I probably would have earlier on
in my marriage brought Cynthia into my life and made
her more of a partner. I learned how to do
that after I about ruined our marriage, and she said
to me one day we in New England and a
(10:06):
ministry and for as tough sledding, and she said, I
don't want you to tell people we're partners anymore. We
were doing the dishes together and I said, I almost
dropped the dish. I said, why, well, we're not. Yes
we are. No, No we're not. Yes we are. No
(10:32):
we're not, yes we are. And she stayed at it,
and finally, in tears that just burst out of her eyes,
she almost screamed, no, we're not. She put the dish
rag down and walked upstairs and went into our bedroom
and closed the door. And I thought, as I finished,
(10:57):
we're not because of me. Well, Greg, I went upstairs
and with tears, I laid down beside her and I said,
you're right. She couldn't even talk by then. I said,
(11:19):
I have I have not entered you into my world
as much as I could have. I know I've not
really presented you as I should have, because you're very
significant to me. She rolled her eyes and I said,
(11:44):
I'm going to change that. I spent the next five
to six years working on that. By the way. When
the opportunity to be on the air came up, I
couldn't lead it. And I said to her, honey cat,
(12:06):
if we take on this extra dimension of ministry, I'm
going to need help. And I said, I would love
to have you be the one that leads it. If
you think about it, pray, I'll pray with you. But
I have no one else better qualified than you to
(12:28):
do that. Well, she took it in forty four years.
She led insightful living. Yes, all of our great ideas
came from her. The whole way we're doing cruises and
tours and Israel trips and all the things we did
extra things. She was behind it. She came up with
(12:48):
fresh ideas. She put together the core values of our
ministry and how we would handle the staff, and how
we would handle our finances, how we would take care
of the East station, and you know what our procedure
would be. Time passed, and one day I'm in a
(13:10):
group over here, and she's not far away in the
group she's talking to and there's a little lull in
my group, and I hear her say, well, now that
chucking our partners, we do so and so we do
such and such and I hear the P word, the
PE word nice partner. In that afternoon, I'm in tears
(13:31):
at lunch and she says, what is wrong? I said,
nothing is wrong? Today you said it? What did I say?
You called us partners? And she goes, well we are?
I said, hit the replay button and go back about
(13:55):
seven years.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Wow, she did?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
I said, remember should I do? She did? It's nothing
like that Now. I wish I would not have kept
her away. Yeah, Greig, there are so many people who
long to help us do what we do, and we
can be so independent. Yeah, I'd be less independent. I'd
(14:23):
be quicker to say I need or could you help?
Or would you be a part of this? Or would
you lead this? Would you take over that? Or I'm
convinced you'd be better at this than I would be.
You know, I would mean that and I would lay it.
And I think the ministry would have just been on
(14:44):
roller blades rather than sometime on skids trying to get
going because I was trying to do too much myself.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah. You gave a message a couple of years ago
maybe where you talked about three things that a preacher faces.
One was loneliness, one was disappointment. Another was being the
target of attacks. Yeah, and then you've been talking about that,
(15:15):
realizing one's mistakes. You've talked about that quite candidly. Have
you felt in your ministry from the beginning to this
present day a loneliness? And do you feel less of that?
Maybe as you reach out and let people enter your horse.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I let people enter it. I don't have that loneliness
when I don't do that, I do feel that loneliness.
Very insightful observation on your part. I've now bowled it
down to four major temptations, okay, and they're easy to
remember because they all start with the same letter S.
They hiss like a snake. The first is sloth. You
(15:53):
can really get lazy in ministry. You'd get better at
your golf game than you are at you're preaching. You
get better at fishing. Then you are working with people
on and on, you get you can really you can
really get slawful guardian sloth. Second, silver boy. The money
(16:16):
can turn your head. They'll offer this, and now you
say no, and they'll offer more money if you'll do
it no, and you have more money, and then you
start reckoning with well, I could certainly use that a mountain.
Then you get tempted start thinking of things you do
for money. I've stopped taking money for funerals decades ago.
(16:42):
I don't take money to bury people they're in grief.
I've sent money back to people. My mentor, Bob Newkirk,
when I was in the Marine Corps, meant so much
to me. When he died, his sweet darling daughter named
Maria got a hold of me and Marie said, could
you do daddy's funeral? I said, oh, I'd love to
(17:04):
the eulogy. I said, I can't come to Colorado Springs,
but I'll do it and I'll send it to you
in video. She said, I can't tell you how what
you would mean. Well, she said three hundred dollars and
I wrote back, I tore it up, I said, Marie,
I could never take a penny after all he did
(17:26):
for me, and I've regularly done that to stay away
from the lure of doing it for the money. A
big wedding, maybe, a big gathering, maybe, Well, would you
do this for twenty thousand?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
No?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
No, I can't do it, and no amount of money
will turn my head. Watch out for silver. Third is
self guard against anything that promotes you, especially your own
tendency to build yourself up, to present yourself as better
than you are, or to remind people of great things,
(18:06):
or to drop names, or on and on. We can
we can do. Martin Luther was getting ready to deliver
the dian of Worms his message there, and he was,
you know, in front of all the prelates and all that,
all the big shots from the church. And one of
his friends, just before he walked onto the platform said
(18:30):
to him, old brother Martin, aren't you afraid, Martin said,
Luther said, more than the Pope and all his cardinals.
I fear most that great Pope self. Lilah, give the
(18:51):
other person the credit. Acknowledge your own staff. She wrote
the brochure. Tell him she wrote it. I didn't write this.
It's very well written. Of course, she's very gifted. You
can get credit for everything that comes out of the church,
and you've done very little in it. Pass along the credit.
(19:14):
And a fourth, of course, is sex. That pornography is
eating us up. Greg I don't know how many men
in ministry have finally confessed. It all started when I
pulled the shades and locked the door, turned on the computer,
(19:35):
and there it was. I've never viewed pornography, so I
don't know what it looks like, but it must be
very appealing, very satisfying, or something. And I say to people, look,
if you would just stop that today, It's never too
(19:59):
late to start doing what is right. One of my
favorite sayings. I came up with it several years ago.
It's never too late to start doing what is right.
Start now. Don't go into all the things you've not done,
to all the things you should have done. Start now.
Stop viewing anything that is even near pornography. Don't go
(20:23):
to the films, don't read the books, don't look at
the magazines, don't look at the things online. I have
never had dinner alone with a single woman or a
married woman unless my wife was there. I've never driven
in a car without my wife present, unless someone was
bringing me to work or taking me home from work.
(20:46):
I've never sat on the bed at the hospital where
a woman was there. I've never counseled a woman alone
without leaving the door open or heading an intern sitting
there with me. I do not give myself any leeway,
because I know that is your weakness in every man.
(21:08):
I was in a one more comment Navigator conference. Years ago,
Lord Sannie, the new President, was interviewing an older gentleman
fresh off the mission field. He must have been in
his eighties, and he sort of hobbled up to the
microphone and Lord put his arm around him. I didn't
know the man, but Lord knew him well, and he said,
(21:31):
after all the things we've talked about, I've got to
ask you this, when did you overcome the lure of
sexual temptation? I'll never forget his answer. Well, Lord, it
hasn't happened yet. Here's his eighty five year old guy,
(21:55):
still fighting the same old battles. Greg, we will fight
it till we're dead, and we must. I don't care.
How would you get great, You're never going to get
past sexual temptation. Yea, of the four, that's the strongest.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Most men don't usually fall because of a sloth or
silver or self, but this one. Yeah, you've seen it, Yes,
I have, And it's an allurement that is always there.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah. If you were to give one less sermon, what
would your text be and what would your topic be?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Oh? My has never been asked this. I believe I
would speak on the grace of God. Yes, I want
to be known as a man of grace. Yeah, I
really do. It would revolve around Christ. It has two
(23:03):
because that's where grace originates. It would take us to
the cross. It would probably be from Romans. Maybe either
chapter five or chapter eight would.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Be the text, maybe both, for you know.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, though he was rich,
and for our sake he became poor that we through
his poverty, might be rich. That's Corinthians. But that kind
of message, and I would talk about you can know
this grace personally and you don't have to clean up anything,
you don't have to correct anything, you don't have to
(23:40):
dress up in any way, you don't have to change anything.
All you've got to do is come to Christ. Let
Jesus become your channel to God. Let him become your
own personal lord and savior. Men, and he will bring
in the grace like you've never had it before. And
(24:03):
he will take the take the irksomeness out of your life.
He will take the impatience out, and little by little
you'll you'll see changes come that you don't deserve, blessings
come that you don't earn. It's all grace. And I
camp on grace, I drive it home. I'm not even
(24:25):
doing a cross stack on g r a ce. You've
never done that before, but that comes to mind.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I love that. Okay, here's questions you've probably never been asked.
Lightning round, meaning just give me quick answers.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Okay, go easy on me.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Okay, these are not I'm not like explain the sovereignty
of God. I was going to ask you what's your
favorite go to food?
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I would I would get a bowl of homemade chili.
Oh nice, I would send this chili's the best ever,
And I would I would unfreeze that we keep it frozen.
I would freezing. I would eat that. That that's delicious.
Some pritos and homemade chili, glass of iced tea.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Have you ever been in and Out? Oh yeah, you
like it?
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
How do you order your burger? It? In and out? Burger?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I order usually a double double, I admit, with everything
on it. Sometime I even order it. My kids have
taught me this.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Animals animal stuff. That's really good, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
It is good. It's all over your wrist, all over
your hands. Yeah, it's delicious. Yes, I love them.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
You what is your favorite movie like I here's how
I define my favorite movie. If I'm flipping channels on
television and I see a movie maybe I've seen many
times that. If I stay and keep watching it till
the commercial, that's a favorite movie.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Just we have a lot of them.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I do too.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Oh, my latest is Lincoln. Oh. I could see Lincoln
every other week for five weeks in a row.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
You told me in a row, you told an amazing
story about Lincoln about they had the art the contents
of what was in his pockets and he had I
think a pocket watch and a handkerchief. I do love
that initial. Yeah. And then there was there was a
little newspaper clipping what was that about.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
How great Abraham Lincoln was? Yeah, and it was yelled
with age. And it tells me that even Lincoln, in quiet,
lonely moments would turn to that box and read at
least someone believed in him.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
He was horribly criticized. He was He was called an ape,
a bad boon, an idiot. I mean, these sophisticated Northeasterners
took him on with both fists. He plowed right on.
I would love to have a dinner with Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Well, that's a good question. Let's expand that if you
were going to have dinner with me Abraham Lincoln, else
would you like to infight.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
H if I could understand him? Winston Churchill would be
another one. I think I would enjoy time with Ronald Reagan.
I would enjoy that, And maybe one more would be Spurgeon. Yes,
(27:33):
I would enjoy asking Spurgeon, how did you do it?
So prolific was Spurgeon that when he died, they began
to publish a sermon a week. Yeah, they did this
every week. Never took a break for twenty five years,
(27:56):
and they ran out of money, but they never ran
out of sermons?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Is that the Metropolitan Tabernite?
Speaker 1 (28:03):
But ye, he was so prolific. After all of those
sermons were published, there were many more they could they
didn't never mind to do it.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
In my office, I have a bust of Spurgeon, a
bust of Churchill, and also a bust of Deal Moody,
another one of my favorite preview.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Moody would be interesting too.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Okay, so Lincoln's one of your favorite movies, he is
any other movies?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I like Ben Herb with Charlton Heston. Yes, that was wonderful,
but I also like Tombstone. You ever seen Tombstone?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I did. Yeah. I'm not a big movie buff, but
I will go a couple of times a year, you know,
if something is out that's really really good. Kids, tell
me how much, how great it was. I love military movies. Yeah,
I enjoy Saving Private Ryan Day.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, I loved it. That was great.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, that first scene a Private Ryan is as close
to real combat as you'll ever see.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I've heard that. I loved how it ended where it
has the men starts and ends with the man at
a cemetery and he's going to visit the grave of
the officer who died saving him, and he asks his
grandchildren I believe, uh, you know, something to the effect
of did I live a meaningful life? You know? And
(29:24):
I thought that was an interesting way to enter that story.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yes, another one is one on on the Holocaust.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Oh yes, Sindler powerful, I could have saved one. Yeah,
I wept it. Why do you think there's a rise
of anti Semitism?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Right, that's that's the most wicked return of racism I've
ever seen.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, and it's stronger than Native.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Jews have had it against them all alone. Yeah. They
get shot for no reason at all. Yeah, they're synagogues
and get get attack and and uh messed up more
than anything any other churches do.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And it's stronger today than maybe since the World War Two.
It seems like it's made.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
To come back. They say, it's not let up.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Do I know you love music? I know that you
used to sing and the boys kind of not a choir?
What it be a boys choir?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
We had a boy's quartet, boy's quartet?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, sing it so like what is like when you're
just driving around and you're gonna sing a song? What
songs do you sing?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
They will often be songs on grace, they will They
will be usually uh, the words of him.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I love memorizing the words, and I quote them to
Cynthia in the evening. Here's one you've never heard. Majestic
sweetness sits enthroned upon the Savior's brow, his head with
radiant Glory's crowned his lips with grace or flow, his
(31:09):
lips with grace or flow. He saw me plused in
deep distress, and flew to my relief for me. He
bore the shameful cross and carried all my grief, and
carried all my grief to him, all my life and
breath and all the joys I have. He makes me
(31:29):
triumph over death, and will save me from the grave,
and will save me from the grief, since from his
bounty I received such proofs of love divine. Had I
have thousand hearts to give, Lord, they would all be thine,
(31:51):
they would all be thine.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
That sung sum severe life, I think in many ways,
doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah. I will sing hymns, and I will sing amazing grace. Yeah,
I will sing over a thousand tongues. Yes, I will sing,
and can it be? I will sing? Shall we gather
at the river where bright angel's feet have trod, with
its crystal tide forever flowing from the throne of God. Yes, Yes,
(32:23):
we'll gather at the river, the beautiful, beautiful river. We'll
together with the saints at the river that flows from
the throne of God. According it. At Paul Salhammer's funeral,
I missed Paul to this day. I loved Paul.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
When you were a young preacher. You work with Race
deadmonde of my favorite authors. And there was another young
man that was a part of that group, Luis Palaus.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yes he was right. Went to South America and came
back and said to the give Martin and me. He said, hey,
I've invited another guy to join us. We were his
first two interns, and we said great. He said he
is English, is not perfected yet, but I think he's
really got a evangelism gift. What's his name, Uh, Louise,
(33:14):
not Lewis Louise Palau, his little twin babies. His wife's
name is Patricia. Two days later they walked in the
door and we met Louise and he was an interre
with us. Wow with Race Edmond.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Race Deedman was a really gifted communicator to love.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Race Edmand one of my mentors.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yes, and Dwight Pentecost, you I served him for four
and a half years. I love everything he's written.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Boy, you're you got depth. You really have depth if
you really enjoy him. Dwight Pentecost, Stan Tussay, Bruce Walke,
Howard Hendricks. I'm telling you, I said at the feet
of giants and uh and Greg. This is not not
(34:01):
an exaggeration. I sat right in the center in the front,
even though I was accepted on probation because I didn't
have all the degrees that I needed to get in,
and for two years they kept me on probation, and
they let me go when they saw my grades. But anyway,
I don't have to sit in the back if I'm
on probation. But I didn't, I could sit anywhere, So
(34:21):
I sit in the front in the center. When the
classes were over, I often couldn't move.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I would just sit there and weep. Thank you? How
did I ever get in this school? How did I
ever get a seat, a chair of my own and
a desk in this school?
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
How could I possibly be allowed to study here? And
when I graduated? I just cried my eyes out. First
thing my parents came through that I'd been a part of. Wow,
my graduation seminary. They didn't stay for the dinner, but
they came for the graduation. I said to Cynthia, look
(35:16):
who's here. I don't know what to make of it.
They had never been anything I'd done. Wow, I wish
you could have been with me. I wish you would
have been sitting right there by me.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yes, well, I can read their books.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I'm telling you you yo, that's right. Yeah. And when
you see Bruce Walke Cradle, the Old Kittle Old Testament,
Hebrew Bible and read from it, whether it's Hebrew or English.
He could read like you like you're reading a novel.
(35:52):
He would read it through and look up to be
tears coming out of his arm. He went to Harvard
got his second PhD. They offered him a teaching position
before he graduated, and he said, no, thank you. There's
a little school in Dallas that I'm committed to. And
(36:13):
they said, no, you haven't heard the offer. He said,
I don't need to hear the offer. And he went
back to Dallas just three years I had.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Are you in there at just the right moment?
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Oh man, he was wonderful. That's great. You would have
loved him.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I've never even heard of him.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
I need w A L T K E.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Did he write?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Is he's written the sum It's okay?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yep. Are the recordings of his message? There may be okay.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Soft, easy boys, almost feminine. He's just when he would preach,
I would like melt hadd Robinson remember though, And Howie
Hendrick said, Don Campbell and so one after another in
that chapel, I'm just like draking it in and the
(37:04):
guest pre Jay Vernon McGee and Steedman of doctor McGee,
Doctor Mitchell. I could go on and on about that. Greg,
excuse me for saying more than you asked me to say.
But no, I will never get over dollars seminary and
(37:26):
the impact in my life.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah. Ever, yeah, well in my way, you know, getting
to know you, Billy Graham, doctor Dobson.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Well you're well read. You're well read. That's a secret.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Well, it helps, it helps, and it helps you. I
feel like I've been sitting at the feet of a
giant listening to you. It adds depth to your to
your pulpeit. My concern, Chuck is a young generation of preachers.
I'm wondering, where's the next generation of Chuck swyn Dolls
(38:00):
and David Jeremiah's and and people that love the Word
of God and love to open the Word of God.
I just hear a lot of preaching.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I'm going to believe that they're hidden away and they
will emerge. Where was I nineteen? You know, forty five
you never heard of me, and fifty five you never
We got married in fifty five and we'll celebrate seventy
one years next month.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Congratulations.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Now pray for Cynthia. Yes, she suffers with dementia, and
it's slowly, slowly, I'm watching that beautiful mind fade. I
(38:50):
hold her in my arms every day, I caress her,
I tell her what she means to me. We have
such a marvelous romantic marriage and fun and travel and
so many of the things that she came up with
and they worked out beautifully, and we were able often
(39:15):
to take one or more of our kids and when
they were married and they came along and it was
so great.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
So my advice to you, love Kathy, Yes, tell her
often how much set aside time for romance sports a
weekend or two or a few weeks of the year,
(39:47):
and do something really expensive, and really tell her it's
for you. This is for you. I can never ever
repay you. So this is for us to enjoy together
because she may not always be exactly as she is today,
and you will never forget those times. I'm so glad,
(40:09):
Saint and I did that. Wow, Greg, it is an
absolute pleasure to know you and to see you, though
you are young and have grown through the years, to
see you stay so committed, so in love with Jesus
and still reading, still probing the theology, still preaching faithfully
(40:36):
and delivering on a regular basis the truth of God's word.
Don't ever stop until you have to. That's when I stopped.
I was ninety. I'd finished the five messages out of
two Timothy, which I had to memorize. You memorize them loosely,
(40:59):
you know, you don't memorize the word line by line.
But I wanted to take second Timothy because it's Paul's fine.
Swan Solgan. Yes, And I stepped down from the pulpit
at age ninety and left the church after twenty six years.
You've been at your church.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Fifty two years. Good for you, well, thank you, Thank
you for taking the time.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
And the same to you, Greg my pleasure, of course,
I really mean that. Let me pray, Dear Father, thank
you for your grace that found us when we were
not looking, and saved us when we were unworthy, and
changed us when we were so stubborn, and softened us
(41:49):
when we were so hard. Thank you for giving us
such magnificent wives to help shape our lives and to
give us someone to love, to learn from, to care about,
and to care for. Thank You for our families, for
(42:13):
Great's sons, and for the one who left and the
one who's still with him. Bless them abundantly as he
and Kathy continue to live for you. Lift your name
up through his words as he speaks them, whether from
a pulpit or quietly with a friend, or in gatherings
(42:36):
where he's asked to speak. May he lie low and
let Christ be exalted and use him mightily in ways
he couldn't even imagine right now, and bless millions through him.
I pray thank you for these fleeting moments we've had together.
(42:58):
They mean so much to us. They make us love
you more, Lord, because love one another more as well.
In the name of Christ, who loved us and gave
himself for us. We pray Amen.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Well, it's lotted to be with you, Greg, and you
mean the world to me and to my family. Thank
you for all you do and all you represent. May
Christ be glorified in it all.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Amen. Well, thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Chuck, You're welcome.
Life audio. You can know this grace personally. You don't
have to change anything. All you've got to do is
come to Christ. Let Jesus become your channel to God.
Let him become your own personal Lord and savior.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Last time on the Greg Glory Show, I sat down
with the legendary pastor Chuck Swindahl. You look back and
you realize that God had a plan for us even
before we were born.
Speaker 1 (00:50):
I just think, Lord, you're too good. How could you
use a a kid that wasn't even wanted like you've
used me, like you're using Greg and put a absolute privilege.
So you lost your boy finally got back on your feet.
(01:12):
Was there a difference in you're preaching.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
Yes, you asked me if I took time off. I
took a little time off, but I had this crusade
scheduled two weeks after this event happened, and people ask me, well,
are you going to do the crusade? And I said,
of course, I'm going to do the crusade because when
I was preaching, because you know, the Bible says Jesus said,
there is joy in the presence of the angels over
(01:38):
one sinner that comes to repentance. You know, I think
that people in heaven may know more than we think
they know, and there is an awareness in heaven of
sinners coming to repentance. Every time a person repents, Heaven rejoices.
And I thought, you know, is my son watching me
from heaven? I don't know. I know the Lord's watching me.
(01:59):
I know my son is in heaven.
Speaker 1 (02:01):
That's a good statement.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
We don't know, Yeah, we don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:04):
We talk about people watching all that, Well, they've seeing
a lot of bad stuff and they're watching this earth,
you know, but.
Speaker 2 (02:11):
They're aware if they're aware of people coming to Christ.
And so that was the one place where I found
relief was when I was preaching and I wasn't thinking
about myself or thinking about my pain. I was focused
on the Lord and on the gospel and on people
hearing the gospel. That that was I found, strangely, a
(02:34):
renewed strength, a willingness to do things I would have
never done before, a willingness to take risks.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Let me ask you something here, Yeah, did you start
fearing for your other children?
Speaker 2 (02:46):
Well, I have one other son.
Speaker 1 (02:48):
Oh you have one of his songs?
Speaker 2 (02:49):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:50):
Did you start thinking, oh, be careful, be careful.
Speaker 2 (02:53):
Oh yeah, for sure, Oh yes, yes, of course I
was very aware of.
Speaker 1 (02:57):
That premonitions like this could be dangerous.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Yeah, but it was more of just because my son,
my younger son, Johnathan, he also had been a prodigal,
and his brother Christopher, the night before he went to
heaven said, did Jonathan, Jonathan, you need to get right
with the Lord? What's it going to take? And after
(03:21):
Christopher died That's I'm not saying God took Christopher so
Jonathan message would come to christ But it was more like,
despite that horrible tragedy, that is what it took to
open Jonathan's eyes. And not only did Jonathan recommit his
life to the Lord, but he felt it called a ministry,
(03:42):
and so it was you could see how God works
these things. You know. I love your teaching on the
Sovereignty of God and Romans eight twenty eight in particular.
I never get tired of thinking about Romans eight twenty eight.
It's just so rich and deep.
Speaker 1 (03:58):
And it isn't all good, but it all works together
for good.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Yeah, all things work together they do for good. They do.
I mean the classic example is Joseph to his brothers,
you meant this or evil God and mat it for good.
But there are things that happen in our life that
are bad. I'll always think of this as a bad thing.
I'll always think of this as a tragedy, the death
of my son. However, I would also acknowledge that many
(04:25):
good things have come into my life and out of
this that God has brought. So I don't have to
understand all of that. But He, you know, as Scripture says,
all things are His servants, and so I just believe
that it's in process. And there are times, Chuck, after
it happened, I'd be driving along and I would have
(04:46):
a memory. Something would remind me of Christopher, and I
would say, I'll never see him again. I'll never hear
his voice again. And I would start going into a
dark hole and I would literally preach to myself and
I would literally say, Greg, shut up, Well you're going
to see him again, Yeah, I said. The Bible says,
oh boy, I am the resurrection and the life. He
(05:08):
that believes in me, though he were dead, Yet shall
he live. Whosoever lives and believes in me shall never die.
You're gonna see your son again, you know. Immediately, as
I would just quote this scripture to myself. It would
lift me out of that pit because I would get
a heavenly perspective. And so I've tried to take this
horrible event and use it as a tool good to
(05:30):
help people and to show them that God can walk
with you through the most unbelievable difficulties in life.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
Okay, switch over. Yes, what would you do differently if
you had these fifty years to live over again?
Speaker 2 (05:45):
Wow, I've never been asked that before.
Speaker 1 (05:49):
You don't have to be profiled.
Speaker 2 (05:50):
I would hang out with you more. What would I
do differently?
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Well, we'd have fun. I'll tell you that.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
You know, I don't want to say that I wouldn't
do anything differently, But for the most part, I don't
know that I would do anything more. So you don't
have any regrets? Well, yes, little, I mean things here
and there, but there's not any big thing in life
or I would say I should have done this. Or no,
(06:19):
I can't say I have any major regrets. Okay, that's
probably not good. Billy Graham once was asked you know
what he would do differently? He said, I would preach
half as much. I would spend more time praying, more
time studying the word of God and telling the Lord
how much I love them. Well, I could certainly say that.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
Sure.
Speaker 2 (06:39):
Should I have prayed more throughout my life? Yes, everybody
could say. Have I worried too much at times? Absolutely? Yes?
Have I been impulsive at times I'm run ahead of
the Lord? Sure I have. But by and large I
would say that I've found the will of God and
I've sought to walk in it, And so I can't
(07:02):
say I would do anything differently for the most part.
What about you, Oh, I would have said yes.
Speaker 1 (07:12):
More often, sooner than no, to what opportunities open doors,
stepping into something that I never dreamed I would do.
(07:34):
I wouldn't be as reluctant. I think that goes back
to my very very early years. Yes, I'm not trying
to excuse it, but my brother was not reluctant man.
He would take on you know. He went to a
mission field thirty three and a half years in Buenos Aires.
And and when you go down there, when I go
(07:56):
down there, I'm known as Orvo's brother, you know. And
he just been a boor right to it. I was
a little too cautious. Sometimes I was a little too
strong with my children. I would have been a little
(08:16):
I should have been quicker to say, yeah, that'd be fine, Yeah,
that'd be fine. Cynthia helped me with that. She said
to me one day, you know, honey, you and I
are both really cautious about our children, and for that reason,
we started saying no right away to most things they
(08:38):
want to do. We need to stop that. And came
across the whole idea of a yes face when I
wrote my book on Grace, yes and we needed to
develop a yes face. And I think I probably frowned
too much. Rather than gave my children a yes face
(08:59):
and told him I would have probably told him earlier
how proud I am of them, how pleased I am
with them. I would have affirmed more and criticized less.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
I would have.
Speaker 1 (09:18):
Been more patient. Why are we so impatient?
Speaker 2 (09:22):
It's just.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
Our Lord is so patient with us, and we turn
around and expected the next thing to perfection from others
or they failed at this. Okay, did the world stop turning?
You know? Did the did the sun stop burning? I mean,
(09:44):
life goes on. And I probably would have earlier on
in my marriage brought Cynthia into my life and made
her more of a partner. I learned how to do
that after I about ruined our marriage, and she said
to me one day we in New England and a
(10:06):
ministry and for as tough sledding, and she said, I
don't want you to tell people we're partners anymore. We
were doing the dishes together and I said, I almost
dropped the dish. I said, why, well, we're not. Yes
we are. No, No we're not. Yes we are. No
(10:32):
we're not, yes we are. And she stayed at it,
and finally, in tears that just burst out of her eyes,
she almost screamed, no, we're not. She put the dish
rag down and walked upstairs and went into our bedroom
and closed the door. And I thought, as I finished,
(10:57):
we're not because of me. Well, Greg, I went upstairs
and with tears, I laid down beside her and I said,
you're right. She couldn't even talk by then. I said,
(11:19):
I have I have not entered you into my world
as much as I could have. I know I've not
really presented you as I should have, because you're very
significant to me. She rolled her eyes and I said,
(11:44):
I'm going to change that. I spent the next five
to six years working on that. By the way. When
the opportunity to be on the air came up, I
couldn't lead it. And I said to her, honey cat,
(12:06):
if we take on this extra dimension of ministry, I'm
going to need help. And I said, I would love
to have you be the one that leads it. If
you think about it, pray, I'll pray with you. But
I have no one else better qualified than you to
(12:28):
do that. Well, she took it in forty four years.
She led insightful living. Yes, all of our great ideas
came from her. The whole way we're doing cruises and
tours and Israel trips and all the things we did
extra things. She was behind it. She came up with
(12:48):
fresh ideas. She put together the core values of our
ministry and how we would handle the staff, and how
we would handle our finances, how we would take care
of the East station, and you know what our procedure
would be. Time passed, and one day I'm in a
(13:10):
group over here, and she's not far away in the
group she's talking to and there's a little lull in
my group, and I hear her say, well, now that
chucking our partners, we do so and so we do
such and such and I hear the P word, the
PE word nice partner. In that afternoon, I'm in tears
(13:31):
at lunch and she says, what is wrong? I said,
nothing is wrong? Today you said it? What did I say?
You called us partners? And she goes, well we are?
I said, hit the replay button and go back about
(13:55):
seven years.
Speaker 2 (13:56):
Wow, she did?
Speaker 1 (14:00):
I said, remember should I do? She did? It's nothing
like that Now. I wish I would not have kept
her away. Yeah, Greig, there are so many people who
long to help us do what we do, and we
can be so independent. Yeah, I'd be less independent. I'd
(14:23):
be quicker to say I need or could you help?
Or would you be a part of this? Or would
you lead this? Would you take over that? Or I'm
convinced you'd be better at this than I would be.
You know, I would mean that and I would lay it.
And I think the ministry would have just been on
(14:44):
roller blades rather than sometime on skids trying to get
going because I was trying to do too much myself.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
Yeah. You gave a message a couple of years ago
maybe where you talked about three things that a preacher faces.
One was loneliness, one was disappointment. Another was being the
target of attacks. Yeah, and then you've been talking about that,
(15:15):
realizing one's mistakes. You've talked about that quite candidly. Have
you felt in your ministry from the beginning to this
present day a loneliness? And do you feel less of that?
Maybe as you reach out and let people enter your horse.
Speaker 1 (15:30):
I let people enter it. I don't have that loneliness
when I don't do that, I do feel that loneliness.
Very insightful observation on your part. I've now bowled it
down to four major temptations, okay, and they're easy to
remember because they all start with the same letter S.
They hiss like a snake. The first is sloth. You
(15:53):
can really get lazy in ministry. You'd get better at
your golf game than you are at you're preaching. You
get better at fishing. Then you are working with people
on and on, you get you can really you can
really get slawful guardian sloth. Second, silver boy. The money
(16:16):
can turn your head. They'll offer this, and now you
say no, and they'll offer more money if you'll do
it no, and you have more money, and then you
start reckoning with well, I could certainly use that a mountain.
Then you get tempted start thinking of things you do
for money. I've stopped taking money for funerals decades ago.
(16:42):
I don't take money to bury people they're in grief.
I've sent money back to people. My mentor, Bob Newkirk,
when I was in the Marine Corps, meant so much
to me. When he died, his sweet darling daughter named
Maria got a hold of me and Marie said, could
you do daddy's funeral? I said, oh, I'd love to
(17:04):
the eulogy. I said, I can't come to Colorado Springs,
but I'll do it and I'll send it to you
in video. She said, I can't tell you how what
you would mean. Well, she said three hundred dollars and
I wrote back, I tore it up, I said, Marie,
I could never take a penny after all he did
(17:26):
for me, and I've regularly done that to stay away
from the lure of doing it for the money. A
big wedding, maybe, a big gathering, maybe, Well, would you
do this for twenty thousand?
Speaker 2 (17:43):
No?
Speaker 1 (17:44):
No, I can't do it, and no amount of money
will turn my head. Watch out for silver. Third is
self guard against anything that promotes you, especially your own
tendency to build yourself up, to present yourself as better
than you are, or to remind people of great things,
(18:06):
or to drop names, or on and on. We can
we can do. Martin Luther was getting ready to deliver
the dian of Worms his message there, and he was,
you know, in front of all the prelates and all that,
all the big shots from the church. And one of
his friends, just before he walked onto the platform said
(18:30):
to him, old brother Martin, aren't you afraid, Martin said,
Luther said, more than the Pope and all his cardinals.
I fear most that great Pope self. Lilah, give the
(18:51):
other person the credit. Acknowledge your own staff. She wrote
the brochure. Tell him she wrote it. I didn't write this.
It's very well written. Of course, she's very gifted. You
can get credit for everything that comes out of the church,
and you've done very little in it. Pass along the credit.
(19:14):
And a fourth, of course, is sex. That pornography is
eating us up. Greg I don't know how many men
in ministry have finally confessed. It all started when I
pulled the shades and locked the door, turned on the computer,
(19:35):
and there it was. I've never viewed pornography, so I
don't know what it looks like, but it must be
very appealing, very satisfying, or something. And I say to people, look,
if you would just stop that today, It's never too
(19:59):
late to start doing what is right. One of my
favorite sayings. I came up with it several years ago.
It's never too late to start doing what is right.
Start now. Don't go into all the things you've not done,
to all the things you should have done. Start now.
Stop viewing anything that is even near pornography. Don't go
(20:23):
to the films, don't read the books, don't look at
the magazines, don't look at the things online. I have
never had dinner alone with a single woman or a
married woman unless my wife was there. I've never driven
in a car without my wife present, unless someone was
bringing me to work or taking me home from work.
(20:46):
I've never sat on the bed at the hospital where
a woman was there. I've never counseled a woman alone
without leaving the door open or heading an intern sitting
there with me. I do not give myself any leeway,
because I know that is your weakness in every man.
(21:08):
I was in a one more comment Navigator conference. Years ago,
Lord Sannie, the new President, was interviewing an older gentleman
fresh off the mission field. He must have been in
his eighties, and he sort of hobbled up to the
microphone and Lord put his arm around him. I didn't
know the man, but Lord knew him well, and he said,
(21:31):
after all the things we've talked about, I've got to
ask you this, when did you overcome the lure of
sexual temptation? I'll never forget his answer. Well, Lord, it
hasn't happened yet. Here's his eighty five year old guy,
(21:55):
still fighting the same old battles. Greg, we will fight
it till we're dead, and we must. I don't care.
How would you get great, You're never going to get
past sexual temptation. Yea, of the four, that's the strongest.
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (22:15):
Most men don't usually fall because of a sloth or
silver or self, but this one. Yeah, you've seen it, Yes,
I have, And it's an allurement that is always there.
Speaker 2 (22:32):
Yeah. If you were to give one less sermon, what
would your text be and what would your topic be?
Speaker 1 (22:40):
Oh? My has never been asked this. I believe I
would speak on the grace of God. Yes, I want
to be known as a man of grace. Yeah, I
really do. It would revolve around Christ. It has two
(23:03):
because that's where grace originates. It would take us to
the cross. It would probably be from Romans. Maybe either
chapter five or chapter eight would.
Speaker 2 (23:15):
Be the text, maybe both, for you know.
Speaker 1 (23:19):
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, though he was rich,
and for our sake he became poor that we through
his poverty, might be rich. That's Corinthians. But that kind
of message, and I would talk about you can know
this grace personally and you don't have to clean up anything,
you don't have to correct anything, you don't have to
(23:40):
dress up in any way, you don't have to change anything.
All you've got to do is come to Christ. Let
Jesus become your channel to God. Let him become your
own personal lord and savior. Men, and he will bring
in the grace like you've never had it before. And
(24:03):
he will take the take the irksomeness out of your life.
He will take the impatience out, and little by little
you'll you'll see changes come that you don't deserve, blessings
come that you don't earn. It's all grace. And I
camp on grace, I drive it home. I'm not even
(24:25):
doing a cross stack on g r a ce. You've
never done that before, but that comes to mind.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
I love that. Okay, here's questions you've probably never been asked.
Lightning round, meaning just give me quick answers.
Speaker 1 (24:37):
Okay, go easy on me.
Speaker 2 (24:38):
Okay, these are not I'm not like explain the sovereignty
of God. I was going to ask you what's your
favorite go to food?
Speaker 1 (24:46):
I would I would get a bowl of homemade chili.
Oh nice, I would send this chili's the best ever,
And I would I would unfreeze that we keep it frozen.
I would freezing. I would eat that. That that's delicious.
Some pritos and homemade chili, glass of iced tea.
Speaker 2 (25:04):
Have you ever been in and Out? Oh yeah, you
like it?
Speaker 1 (25:07):
Oh yeah?
Speaker 2 (25:09):
How do you order your burger? It? In and out? Burger?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
I order usually a double double, I admit, with everything
on it. Sometime I even order it. My kids have
taught me this.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
Animals animal stuff. That's really good, isn't it?
Speaker 1 (25:27):
It is good. It's all over your wrist, all over
your hands. Yeah, it's delicious. Yes, I love them.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
You what is your favorite movie like I here's how
I define my favorite movie. If I'm flipping channels on
television and I see a movie maybe I've seen many
times that. If I stay and keep watching it till
the commercial, that's a favorite movie.
Speaker 1 (25:47):
Just we have a lot of them.
Speaker 2 (25:49):
I do too.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Oh, my latest is Lincoln. Oh. I could see Lincoln
every other week for five weeks in a row.
Speaker 2 (25:58):
You told me in a row, you told an amazing
story about Lincoln about they had the art the contents
of what was in his pockets and he had I
think a pocket watch and a handkerchief. I do love
that initial. Yeah. And then there was there was a
little newspaper clipping what was that about.
Speaker 1 (26:20):
How great Abraham Lincoln was? Yeah, and it was yelled
with age. And it tells me that even Lincoln, in quiet,
lonely moments would turn to that box and read at
least someone believed in him.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (26:38):
He was horribly criticized. He was He was called an ape,
a bad boon, an idiot. I mean, these sophisticated Northeasterners
took him on with both fists. He plowed right on.
I would love to have a dinner with Abraham Lincoln.
Speaker 2 (27:00):
Well, that's a good question. Let's expand that if you
were going to have dinner with me Abraham Lincoln, else
would you like to infight.
Speaker 1 (27:07):
H if I could understand him? Winston Churchill would be
another one. I think I would enjoy time with Ronald Reagan.
I would enjoy that, And maybe one more would be Spurgeon. Yes,
(27:33):
I would enjoy asking Spurgeon, how did you do it?
So prolific was Spurgeon that when he died, they began
to publish a sermon a week. Yeah, they did this
every week. Never took a break for twenty five years,
(27:56):
and they ran out of money, but they never ran
out of sermons?
Speaker 2 (28:01):
Is that the Metropolitan Tabernite?
Speaker 1 (28:03):
But ye, he was so prolific. After all of those
sermons were published, there were many more they could they
didn't never mind to do it.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
In my office, I have a bust of Spurgeon, a
bust of Churchill, and also a bust of Deal Moody,
another one of my favorite preview.
Speaker 1 (28:20):
Moody would be interesting too.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Okay, so Lincoln's one of your favorite movies, he is
any other movies?
Speaker 1 (28:27):
Sure?
Speaker 2 (28:29):
I like Ben Herb with Charlton Heston. Yes, that was wonderful,
but I also like Tombstone. You ever seen Tombstone?
Speaker 1 (28:35):
I did. Yeah. I'm not a big movie buff, but
I will go a couple of times a year, you know,
if something is out that's really really good. Kids, tell
me how much, how great it was. I love military movies. Yeah,
I enjoy Saving Private Ryan Day.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yeah, I loved it. That was great.
Speaker 1 (28:56):
Yeah, that first scene a Private Ryan is as close
to real combat as you'll ever see.
Speaker 2 (29:02):
I've heard that. I loved how it ended where it
has the men starts and ends with the man at
a cemetery and he's going to visit the grave of
the officer who died saving him, and he asks his
grandchildren I believe, uh, you know, something to the effect
of did I live a meaningful life? You know? And
(29:24):
I thought that was an interesting way to enter that story.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Yes, another one is one on on the Holocaust.
Speaker 2 (29:33):
Oh yes, Sindler powerful, I could have saved one. Yeah,
I wept it. Why do you think there's a rise
of anti Semitism?
Speaker 1 (29:44):
Right, that's that's the most wicked return of racism I've
ever seen.
Speaker 2 (29:52):
Yeah, and it's stronger than Native.
Speaker 1 (29:54):
Jews have had it against them all alone. Yeah. They
get shot for no reason at all. Yeah, they're synagogues
and get get attack and and uh messed up more
than anything any other churches do.
Speaker 2 (30:13):
And it's stronger today than maybe since the World War Two.
It seems like it's made.
Speaker 1 (30:18):
To come back. They say, it's not let up.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Do I know you love music? I know that you
used to sing and the boys kind of not a choir?
What it be a boys choir?
Speaker 1 (30:29):
We had a boy's quartet, boy's quartet?
Speaker 2 (30:31):
Yeah, sing it so like what is like when you're
just driving around and you're gonna sing a song? What
songs do you sing?
Speaker 1 (30:39):
They will often be songs on grace, they will They
will be usually uh, the words of him.
Speaker 2 (30:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:48):
I love memorizing the words, and I quote them to
Cynthia in the evening. Here's one you've never heard. Majestic
sweetness sits enthroned upon the Savior's brow, his head with
radiant Glory's crowned his lips with grace or flow, his
(31:09):
lips with grace or flow. He saw me plused in
deep distress, and flew to my relief for me. He
bore the shameful cross and carried all my grief, and
carried all my grief to him, all my life and
breath and all the joys I have. He makes me
(31:29):
triumph over death, and will save me from the grave,
and will save me from the grief, since from his
bounty I received such proofs of love divine. Had I
have thousand hearts to give, Lord, they would all be thine,
(31:51):
they would all be thine.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
That sung sum severe life, I think in many ways,
doesn't it.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Yeah. I will sing hymns, and I will sing amazing grace. Yeah,
I will sing over a thousand tongues. Yes, I will sing,
and can it be? I will sing? Shall we gather
at the river where bright angel's feet have trod, with
its crystal tide forever flowing from the throne of God. Yes, Yes,
(32:23):
we'll gather at the river, the beautiful, beautiful river. We'll
together with the saints at the river that flows from
the throne of God. According it. At Paul Salhammer's funeral,
I missed Paul to this day. I loved Paul.
Speaker 2 (32:39):
When you were a young preacher. You work with Race
deadmonde of my favorite authors. And there was another young
man that was a part of that group, Luis Palaus.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yes he was right. Went to South America and came
back and said to the give Martin and me. He said, hey,
I've invited another guy to join us. We were his
first two interns, and we said great. He said he
is English, is not perfected yet, but I think he's
really got a evangelism gift. What's his name, Uh, Louise,
(33:14):
not Lewis Louise Palau, his little twin babies. His wife's
name is Patricia. Two days later they walked in the
door and we met Louise and he was an interre
with us. Wow with Race Edmond.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
Race Deedman was a really gifted communicator to love.
Speaker 1 (33:32):
Race Edmand one of my mentors.
Speaker 2 (33:34):
Yes, and Dwight Pentecost, you I served him for four
and a half years. I love everything he's written.
Speaker 1 (33:40):
Boy, you're you got depth. You really have depth if
you really enjoy him. Dwight Pentecost, Stan Tussay, Bruce Walke,
Howard Hendricks. I'm telling you, I said at the feet
of giants and uh and Greg. This is not not
(34:01):
an exaggeration. I sat right in the center in the front,
even though I was accepted on probation because I didn't
have all the degrees that I needed to get in,
and for two years they kept me on probation, and
they let me go when they saw my grades. But anyway,
I don't have to sit in the back if I'm
on probation. But I didn't, I could sit anywhere, So
(34:21):
I sit in the front in the center. When the
classes were over, I often couldn't move.
Speaker 2 (34:28):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (34:31):
I would just sit there and weep. Thank you? How
did I ever get in this school? How did I
ever get a seat, a chair of my own and
a desk in this school?
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (34:52):
How could I possibly be allowed to study here? And
when I graduated? I just cried my eyes out. First
thing my parents came through that I'd been a part of. Wow,
my graduation seminary. They didn't stay for the dinner, but
they came for the graduation. I said to Cynthia, look
(35:16):
who's here. I don't know what to make of it.
They had never been anything I'd done. Wow, I wish
you could have been with me. I wish you would
have been sitting right there by me.
Speaker 2 (35:28):
Yes, well, I can read their books.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
I'm telling you you yo, that's right. Yeah. And when
you see Bruce Walke Cradle, the Old Kittle Old Testament,
Hebrew Bible and read from it, whether it's Hebrew or English.
He could read like you like you're reading a novel.
(35:52):
He would read it through and look up to be
tears coming out of his arm. He went to Harvard
got his second PhD. They offered him a teaching position
before he graduated, and he said, no, thank you. There's
a little school in Dallas that I'm committed to. And
(36:13):
they said, no, you haven't heard the offer. He said,
I don't need to hear the offer. And he went
back to Dallas just three years I had.
Speaker 2 (36:23):
Are you in there at just the right moment?
Speaker 1 (36:25):
Oh man, he was wonderful. That's great. You would have
loved him.
Speaker 2 (36:30):
I've never even heard of him.
Speaker 1 (36:31):
I need w A L T K E.
Speaker 2 (36:35):
Did he write?
Speaker 1 (36:36):
Is he's written the sum It's okay?
Speaker 2 (36:39):
Yep. Are the recordings of his message? There may be okay.
Speaker 1 (36:43):
Soft, easy boys, almost feminine. He's just when he would preach,
I would like melt hadd Robinson remember though, And Howie
Hendrick said, Don Campbell and so one after another in
that chapel, I'm just like draking it in and the
(37:04):
guest pre Jay Vernon McGee and Steedman of doctor McGee,
Doctor Mitchell. I could go on and on about that. Greg,
excuse me for saying more than you asked me to say.
But no, I will never get over dollars seminary and
(37:26):
the impact in my life.
Speaker 2 (37:28):
Yeah. Ever, yeah, well in my way, you know, getting
to know you, Billy Graham, doctor Dobson.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Well you're well read. You're well read. That's a secret.
Speaker 2 (37:40):
Well, it helps, it helps, and it helps you. I
feel like I've been sitting at the feet of a
giant listening to you. It adds depth to your to
your pulpeit. My concern, Chuck is a young generation of preachers.
I'm wondering, where's the next generation of Chuck swyn Dolls
(38:00):
and David Jeremiah's and and people that love the Word
of God and love to open the Word of God.
I just hear a lot of preaching.
Speaker 1 (38:08):
I'm going to believe that they're hidden away and they
will emerge. Where was I nineteen? You know, forty five
you never heard of me, and fifty five you never
We got married in fifty five and we'll celebrate seventy
one years next month.
Speaker 2 (38:26):
Congratulations.
Speaker 1 (38:27):
Now pray for Cynthia. Yes, she suffers with dementia, and
it's slowly, slowly, I'm watching that beautiful mind fade. I
(38:50):
hold her in my arms every day, I caress her,
I tell her what she means to me. We have
such a marvelous romantic marriage and fun and travel and
so many of the things that she came up with
and they worked out beautifully, and we were able often
(39:15):
to take one or more of our kids and when
they were married and they came along and it was
so great.
Speaker 2 (39:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (39:25):
So my advice to you, love Kathy, Yes, tell her
often how much set aside time for romance sports a
weekend or two or a few weeks of the year,
(39:47):
and do something really expensive, and really tell her it's
for you. This is for you. I can never ever
repay you. So this is for us to enjoy together
because she may not always be exactly as she is today,
and you will never forget those times. I'm so glad,
(40:09):
Saint and I did that. Wow, Greg, it is an
absolute pleasure to know you and to see you, though
you are young and have grown through the years, to
see you stay so committed, so in love with Jesus
and still reading, still probing the theology, still preaching faithfully
(40:36):
and delivering on a regular basis the truth of God's word.
Don't ever stop until you have to. That's when I stopped.
I was ninety. I'd finished the five messages out of
two Timothy, which I had to memorize. You memorize them loosely,
(40:59):
you know, you don't memorize the word line by line.
But I wanted to take second Timothy because it's Paul's fine.
Swan Solgan. Yes, And I stepped down from the pulpit
at age ninety and left the church after twenty six years.
You've been at your church.
Speaker 2 (41:16):
Fifty two years. Good for you, well, thank you, Thank
you for taking the time.
Speaker 1 (41:24):
And the same to you, Greg my pleasure, of course,
I really mean that. Let me pray, Dear Father, thank
you for your grace that found us when we were
not looking, and saved us when we were unworthy, and
changed us when we were so stubborn, and softened us
(41:49):
when we were so hard. Thank you for giving us
such magnificent wives to help shape our lives and to
give us someone to love, to learn from, to care about,
and to care for. Thank You for our families, for
(42:13):
Great's sons, and for the one who left and the
one who's still with him. Bless them abundantly as he
and Kathy continue to live for you. Lift your name
up through his words as he speaks them, whether from
a pulpit or quietly with a friend, or in gatherings
(42:36):
where he's asked to speak. May he lie low and
let Christ be exalted and use him mightily in ways
he couldn't even imagine right now, and bless millions through him.
I pray thank you for these fleeting moments we've had together.
(42:58):
They mean so much to us. They make us love
you more, Lord, because love one another more as well.
In the name of Christ, who loved us and gave
himself for us. We pray Amen.
Speaker 2 (43:19):
Amen.
Speaker 1 (43:21):
Well, it's lotted to be with you, Greg, and you
mean the world to me and to my family. Thank
you for all you do and all you represent. May
Christ be glorified in it all.
Speaker 2 (43:33):
Amen. Well, thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Chuck, You're welcome.
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