April 5, 2026 • 52 mins
Today's guest is a former detective who spent ten years on the force interviewing kids - so she knows everything there is to know about keeping them safe.
Kristi McVee is also a mum, so she knows how hard it can be getting kids to tell us anything!
So she's got some great advice and even a card game to help kids to start thinking about their safety and how to open up to us about it.
We all love our kids but we might not always know how best to protect them - well in this chat, Kristi shows us how we can arm our kids with the best tools to stay safe from now until adulthood.
You can get in touch with Kristi here.
Or buy her child body safety cards here.
If you need a shoulder to cry on:
Two Doting Dads Facebook Group: https://www.facebook.com/groups/639833491568735/
YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@TheTwoDotingDads
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/twodotingdads/
TikTok: https://www.tiktok.com/@twodotingdads
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Listen
Watch
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:15):
Matt, we always claim that we don't give advice, but
every so often it's nice to get someone in who
knows what they're talking about.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Just to confirm the advice is definitely not coming from
us one hundred. But we do have an expert here.
We have Christy mcvee. She is a mum, she's also
an ex detective, and she's talking about a topic which
for a lot of parents will be quite triggering. So
just to let you know, the content from this episode
does talk about sexual abuse and children.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So after many years of being on the police force,
she has gathered what she has learned and decided to
put it into prevention and educating parents and how to
have those conversations with kids.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, this is such an important episode. I think we
all want nothing but safety for our kids. To this
episode will give you the information to help build confidence
and empower your children.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
That includes both what information should be shared at what
age group, and also other things to look out for some.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Of the warning signs if you are going to have
a conversation, how to open up that dialogue.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
There's no doubt, Matt, we all love our kids, but
we can't be there for them all the time. So
it's important to arm them with the information to help
them stay safe.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Ultimately, we want to protect them as best as we can.
Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mom.
I am Maddie Jay.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
I'm Ash and I'm the combat wat Yes, you can tell.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Us that this is a podcast all about parenting.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It is good as the bad and we don't give advice,
but the combat Wombat will on this episode. Why is
it the combat Wombat.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Because when I was in the police academy, I apparently
I ran like a warmbat and that is the nickname
the men in my school. I've ran like this with
my and if any of these blokes are watching you
or ourselves, Yeah, and they didn't even tell me until
the end of the academy, like they'd been calling me
(02:03):
this for six months. That's me, you know what, I'm
going to own it.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I love the name.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
But yeah, because I read like this like a little
apparently like a little wombat.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Very fast. That's quick, how far.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
They're also sturdy.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
They're all so strong.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
That was me there and I never gave up.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
But again, once again to those bullies listening, report.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes we do start these podcasts with a simple question,
and it is do you remember the most trouble you
got into as a child.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
I got into a fair bit of trouble around my teens,
late teens. So I wrote a note to my best
friend in English, and I got caught and I got
center boarding school.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Oh what what can I note?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Were you writing nothing?
Speaker 5 (02:49):
It was just talking to each other. But it got
me sent to boarding school. Holy, I know, I know,
I was just sneeze and they expelled me.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Knows the school was this is the right of passage?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Was it?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
That's right?
Speaker 5 (03:01):
We had like a book that we wrote all of
our like back and forth.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
So I found by the way, I found my wife's book.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Yeah, sorry, John read it from high school. Yeah yeah,
so you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, girls be
mean and books like.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Oh it was mean.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah so yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
I don't even remember what was in it or what
I wrote. But I got caught and my English teacher wrong,
my parents, And then the next thing I was and
it was at the end of the year.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So then the next year I went to boarding school.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Do you think the decision for boarding school did that
come from the teacher?
Speaker 5 (03:31):
As in, no, this is the parents the parents decided, oh,
you're too much trouble.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
We don't want to deal with a teenager. Let's send
it a boarding just like that.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
That's not even that bad.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I know. No, there was probably lots of like think
thoughts around that. My parents were much older, they had
some health problems. But that's what I thought at fifteen,
Like at thirteen, I mean like, oh, I've just written
a note and it got me in trouble.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
So yeah, you'd be like, fuck you guys, looking for
a way out here?
Speaker 5 (03:57):
It is wow, I felt like, But I know that
there was a lot more to it. But you know,
parents didn't talk about this stuff back in the day,
Like they didn't tell you their decisions. You just you're
going to boarding school next year. Like we don't talk about,
you know, troubles with the family off or if there's
any issues with money or anything like that.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Was it co ed? Was it same sex?
Speaker 5 (04:20):
It was same sex. It was a very expensive boarding school.
I didn't fit in because I was a pilbrig kid.
I'm a country kid by heart.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
See I kind of thought this is incorrectly here, But
I thought someone who would end up being a detective
would be the school principal. Yeah, the prefect, the person
who was like, put your hat on detension.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
Yeah, well I got caught like smoking in the stairwell.
I just was rebelling ravel Yeah, I was just rebelling
back then, you know, like as a teenager does, like
kids do kid things, and so it just it shouldn't
be the end of the world and you shouldn't get
sent to boarding school. But it just felt like I
was being punished.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
So then what was it that drew you down the
path of being in the police force.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
I thought I wanted to be a pilot in the
Air Force because I love top gun when I was
a kid.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Guilty, Yeah, do you know Maverick all that goose?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I never said it. Look at the faces in the room.
Get out serious.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think I'll take this record from that. What Yeah,
that's it.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
You have to take him to go watch both movies.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
He can't watch movies.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Oh really one of them? Okay, great film, the great film. Yeah,
So I thought I so, I thought.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
I thought I wanted to be an Air Force pilot
when I was a kid, But growing up I never
had any plans and ambitions. I actually got kicked out
at home at fifteen so I spent three years living
with my boyfriend's family and then bought a house at eighteen,
went down the path of working, and at the ripe
old age of twenty eight, saw an ad in the
paper and it said we want more women in the
(05:56):
police in the Western Shrolian Police. I had a nine
month old daughter, and I went, I could do that.
Everyone laughed at me, and I thought, fuck you, I'm
going to go and show you.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
So I did good for you.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Any desire prior to that, never not a thing. You
were influenced by a paper?
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
I was reading it during my daughter's nap time, Like
I was literally at home waiting stay at home mum
at the time. She was nine months old having a
nap and I saw it and I was like, ooh yeah,
And it was like, you know, flexible working arrangements, interesting
career paths, you get a gun, all of that, and
so I thought, yeah, I could do that. And it
stuck with me because days later I actually spoke up
(06:34):
and said something to my husband and he kind of went,
are you sure, Are you serious? And I was like yeah,
because I'd worked in administrat Yeah, I'd worked in administration.
I'd been working in offices, and I didn't know what
I wanted to go back to when I finished, like
maternity leave. And he's very supportive. My husband was, He's like, yeah,
give it a go. If you get in, you get in.
But when I told the rest of my family, they
(06:54):
were like that nice one.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yeah, family.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Supportive.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
So I started training like my daughter would have as
nap during the day. We lived on a six acre
property because I had horses, and I used to do
hill sprints and my neighbor used to see me every
day because she was at home with her kid, and
she'd send me a message, going good run today. And
then I had got a pete. Took me about ten months,
maybe twelve months to get in. I applied in about
(07:20):
two thousand and nine, April two thousand and nine actually,
and then got the letter in November two thousand and
nine to say I got a place in the squad.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Is it rude and sorry to be naive here to
say you're a cop?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Like is that in any way to a rock a track?
Speaker 5 (07:34):
Great?
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Because my mom was like, don't call her a cop.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
That's what we call each other.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Your mom. Actually, she grabbing, like the toughest time just like,
don't call them cops.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Yeah, it would be rude if you called me any
other name like pig or Oh.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, what is the pathway to being a detective? And
when you entered the force, was that always the goal
where you want to end up?
Speaker 5 (08:01):
I didn't know, Like I joined the police, I went
through the academy. Six months in the academy. My daughter
was just two when I got in, like and or
turned to when I was in there, and so I
didn't have any ideas where I was going with it.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
I just thought okay.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
And then my husband actually got a transfer to the
Pilbro back to the Pilbury and Karatha, and so I said,
can I move to Karatha because he's up there and
you know, we've got a young daughter. So they transferred
me up there. So that was my first posting. I
did four years in the Pilborough, working in a rural community.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Do you remember your first arrest?
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yep? Oh yeah, yep. It's very, very vivid in my brain.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Do you mind sharing.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
It's not a great story. It was a domestic violence
arrest and it wasn't great, but it was a very
eye opening experience because in the academy they're like this
might happen, this might happen. We pretend, you know, like
you're arresting people and they're actors and you know, you're
handcuffing people and it's not in a real situation. And
then you're in a real situation where you have to
(08:59):
jump in.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
How long you've been on the force before. We made
that first arrest.
Speaker 5 (09:03):
The first day of the first and so, you know,
and luckily they put you with someone who's more senior.
You're thrown in the deep end when you go out
into the community. Anyway, So it was an interesting one.
And then yeah, so and I'm like five foot one,
I'm not very tall. Yeah, so it was interesting. I
learned to use my mouth and talk people down.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I suppose, like first out, you ripped the band
aid off. First day, I think, like, do you reckon?
Do you think after that first one do you sort
of desensitized to it? Oh?
Speaker 5 (09:32):
It takes time, like you train your adrenaline and your
nervous system to like not react to things. You asked
about going into detectives and stuff like that was you know,
I was in the police four years before I joined detectives.
You have to like sort of do your time before
you can, you have to do general duties. You have
to prove that you have the mental capacity and the
(09:53):
rights attitude to become a detective because it's the next
level up. You know, as a general duties police officer,
you're arresting or you're dealing with first response, like you're
attending the situations first up. And I mean, look, there's
a little bit of an US and them thing with
general duties to detectives, because detectives, you know, they wear
their playing clothes and they've got their little badge on
(10:13):
their belt and stuff like that. But you're then dealing
with serious crime, so you have to have more knowledge
around legislation and more knowledge around powers, and you're interviewing
better interviewing techniques, So you have to do some time
doing that before you step into that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
We have a left field on that front for the
men and women of the police force. What sort of
support do they have mentally within that sort of stuff,
because I mean it's traumatic, right, You've got to train
yourself to what just get on with it or do
they provide someone for you to talk to afterwards.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Look, every police force has their own health and welfare division.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
That's there to support police.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
Each person will have their own opinion on this, but
it needs to be managed and you need support and
you need help. You know, I got depression within the
first three years of being a police and it was
the first time in my life I'd ever had depression.
And the reason it was situational. It was because I
thought I had to be a certain way in order
to be a police officer.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
I thought it had to be hard.
Speaker 5 (11:11):
I couldn't have feelings because you know, within the first
couple of months, I was dealing with sudden deaths, I
was dealing with child abuse, I was dealing with road crashes.
I was dealing with everything. So you lean on the
people beside you. You lean on your partners and your
team because you're in teams and they do their best.
But none of them are psychologists, none of that, you know,
(11:31):
and a lot of police sadly, and I'm sure some
will say, you know, one of the ways that we
dealt with it was to go get drunk. And you know,
the first time I ever went to a sudden death
and I had to give CPR, I was due to
finish work at seven am and they pulled me. I
was about to go home to my family and they're like,
nah ah, you're coming with us. And we went and
got blind and that was really hard because I wasn't
(11:52):
actually a big drinker, but that was how they dealt
with it, and so you had to conform.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And that was in the first three months.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
So that was kind of the culture, and it can
be the culture of policing. So I'm not telling police
officers anything they don't already know.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
It's not a healthy way to deal with trauma.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, yeah, And it's such an old school way of
thinking and it's still there. You don't want to be
that new person. You want to fit in, you don't
want to be Actually, I'm going to go against the
grain and I leave you.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
If you don't fit in, you don't fit in.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
And like towards the end of my career, that's how
it was, like I didn't fit in. But to get
back to your question, within nine months of being a
police officer, the senior sergeant of the detectives went around
to the station and said, who wants to become a
specialist child interviewer? And I put my hand up and
I was a probationary constable at the time, and he said, well,
you can't do it because you're a probationary constable. And
(12:41):
I was like, okay, well, I'd really like to do
it if you don't find anyone else.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
Why did you want to do it. Why did you
put your hand up.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
I just I just remember feeling like in that first week,
I went to that domestic violence incident, and then I
dealt with a woman who had been abused or a
physically assaulted by a family member. And then and within
the first week, I'd done so many things, but one
of the biggest things I saw was a child who
had been I was the first responder to a child
and an eleven year old child who'd had a sleepover
(13:10):
at her best friend's house and been sexually abused at
that house. And so I had to take the statement
of the family and I was and it was kind
of like I had a three year old at home
or two and a half year old at home, and
I was sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, like I
didn't know, you know, like yes, I know, but I
hadn't had it in my face yet like that. And
then I just had many many more instances after that,
(13:33):
Like within the first six months. You know, it was
week after week of like dealing with all sorts of
sexual abuse and trauma, and so I think I just
felt like, what more can I do?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Like I wanted to be there.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
I was a mom, I was a mom of a
little girl, and I just wanted to I remember thinking,
I just want to do more for kids, and so
I think that's where that path started, and my daughter
was the reason, and just wanting to know how to
protect her as well. And then yeah, I put my
hand up, he said, And then he couldn't find anyone
else to do it. So I got sent on it,
and you know, and I was in the job less
(14:07):
than nine months, and I became a specialst child interviewer.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
When you feel like you want to make a difference
and protect kids in the time that you spent specializing
in that field, did it feel like you were making
a difference or did it just feel like as soon
as you do it with one case, another one is
right behind it and it's just relentless.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yep. The second one, it's hard to explain.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
It's like sitting across a table like this, right, and
there's a camera in the corner and there's a little
microphone on the table and you're talking to a child,
you know, up from three all the way to eighteen,
and in that moment, you're doing something important, you're giving
them a moment that you're giving them a voice. But then,
you know, after the fact, I could tell them how
brave they were, I could tell them how much, you know,
(14:46):
how well they did. I could explain to them that,
you know, it's what happened to them wasn't okay, and
you know that will do our best. That was the
most rawding part of it all. But the system itself
is really not looking after kids, and you don't. And
towards the end of my career, after the nearly after
ten years, I realized that police don't protect kids. They
(15:07):
just clean up the mess after the fact.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Right man.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So then, how was it as a mother when you're
dealing with these horrific situations. How do you then take
your detective hat off and then put your mother's hat
on and look after your daughter?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (15:24):
It was hard because sometimes I would be dealing with,
you know, a child similar age. You know, I look
at them, and I look at my daughter, and it's
like looking at her and I would be you know,
hearing the worst things that had happened to them, and
I would be sitting there thinking, could be my girl,
could be her, and she would, you know, So I
would go home and hug her a bit more and
(15:45):
just basically try and be in the moment with her.
It made me very hypervigilant, very protective, Especially when she
was younger. People always ask me, how is your child
even able to like is she not scared of everything?
And I'm like, no, because I taught her the things that.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
She needed to know.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
I realized throughout my career is that we can't protect
them in a bubble like. We can't keep them home
all the time. We can't wrap them up and cotton bull.
All we can do is arm them, and we can
empower them, and we can let them know exactly what
they need to know. Because I saw kids day in
day out, talking to kids day and day out who
had been sexually abused and abused, and they were so resilient,
(16:21):
and they still were worrying about what they were doing
on the weekends and what their friends were doing, and
what clothes they were buying and could they go to
maccas After they'd spoken to me about the worst things
that had happened like it wasn't stopping them. It was
just another part of their life. And so the thing
is is that, yes, child sexual abuse and what I
was seeing is terrible and it's the worst thing that
(16:41):
could ever possibly happen to anyone. In fact, I've been
quoted as saying that it's worse and murder to me
because it changes the trajectory of a child's life. But
the thing is is that kids don't let that stop them.
If they have safe, protective parents, if they have someone
to help them heal, if they have someone to listen to,
they go on to live full lives. And so what
that's what I knew is that even if she did
(17:03):
get sexually abused, she would be okay when you.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Look at all of the cases over your time in
the fourth I don't know if there's an answer to this,
but could you start to piece together first of all
the situations where this was happening, and then secondly the
type of person that was committing these crimes, Like for me,
maybe it's just what I see in media, but for me,
(17:27):
it's more prevalent among men.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
But is there a certain kind of checklist or criteria
that you can look at that would raise alarm bells.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
Yeah I did, I did see things, but it's it's
not everyone, but it can be anyone.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Right.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
So the thing was is that yes, it is predominantly
ment around ninety percent as men, but sadly ten to
twelve percent can be women. And we just had a
case in Western Australia of a teacher who sexually abused
a young boy and you know, has been charged pled
guilty and she ended up having his baby. So in
Western Australia just recently, and you know, he was only
(18:02):
in his early teens and sadly, one in four Australian
adults have been sexually abused twenty eight point five percent.
And that's current statistics as of two years ago. You know,
one in three girls and one in five boys will
be sexually abused before they're eighteen.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Holy shit.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
And it is a.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Bigger problem than what most people think because we think, oh,
not my family, not my community, not my you know whatever.
But it's in my experience, it's every demographic, every community.
If there's someone in your family that's been sexually abused,
and they might not feel like they can talk speak
up because we don't talk about it in our families.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
How can I, as a parent not that I want
to be looking at everyone with this lens of like,
well are you going to be a fucking pedophile? And
are you going to assault my child? And I also
I'm conscious that I don't want to look at someone
who could be completely innocent and start to think, well,
hang on, they're doing A B and C. Maybe they are.
But at the same time, I want to be vigilant.
What can I look out for?
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Yeah, we call it grooming, but you know, a good
friend of mine, she calls it friending up. So someone
who's really wants to spend more time with kids and adults.
Like I tell a story in some of my presentations
about a family member brings someone to a Christmas party
and they they're the boyfriend of you know, a cousin
or something like that. And this person, this male, he
(19:21):
spent all his time with the kids. He was hanging out,
playing games, gaming with them. Everyone's like, come out and
have a drink outside, and he's like, nah, nah, like
hanging with the kids, and so you know that seems
like really cool because you know he wants to be
around the kids in the end, he did actually attempt
to sexually abuse one of the girls at the at
the Christmas party. Most of the time, it takes a
lot longer, is what I'm about to say. You know,
(19:43):
it's a lot more manipulative and a lot more Yeah,
premeditated is the word. Like, there's a lot more thought
goes into it. You don't do that generally, you're going
to get caught if you do it that fast. But
he was doing that. So someone wants to spend more
time with your kids than you do, that's a red flag.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
But also people.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Who they're not respecting bodily autonomy for kids. One of
the things that I teach is like, we need to
make sure our kids understand that what their private parts
are and the mouth is a private part, and so
our private parts are our privates. No one else is
allowed to touch, look at, or take photos of our
private parts because you know they're our private parts. And
you don't have to go any more further into it
(20:21):
than that. And anyone who does, you come and tell
one of your safe people, which is you know your
five safe people, and you help them understand who those
people are, you know, Mummy, Daddy, Auntie, nanna. Whoever, when
they get old enough, they choose their safe people, because
we could be choosing someone that might not be safe.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
So there's a parent out there right now listening and
they don't have the phrase of safe people and have
them identified. That should be one thing that you definitely
put at the top of your list.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You also mentioned then that they have to be old
enough to pick their safe people eventually.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
Yeah, but a lot of kids don't understand or sorry,
it's not that they don't understand, they don't have the language. Ye,
and the language is these are my private parts.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
We name them.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
And number one, make sure that you're using the correct
terminology for body parts. You can have nicknames, but they
need to know both because one of the things that
I found when interviewing kids is that if they weren't
able to disclose what private part was, then most likely
it can't be taken any further. So if they're not
able to say they touched or they did this to
(21:21):
my private part, as a detective, I have to decide
whether it was and I apologize to listeners, but if
it's a sexual penetration or an indecent dealing, whether it's
just touching or if something's actually happened further, so you know,
they need to be able to disclose A child, poor
little child, three, four, five, six years old, has to
be able to say what's happened. So if they can't
name it clearly their private parts and what it is,
(21:44):
the name of it, it can be considered insufficient evidence.
It can't go any further down the judicial pathway.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
With younger children, then how do you put together a
case for those who were really young?
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Yeah, so under three, we don't. Police don't interview children
under the age of three. So if a child is
abused under the age of three, unless there's other evidence,
then nothing happens.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And then when you are talking to children, I'm assuming
that the age of the child as a parent will
determine how much information you go into. So what are
those age groups like and how do we tailor the
information specifically to that age Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:23):
So for instance, and as you can tell, I'm using
certain language like safe, unsafe, appropriate, inappropriate, private, public, We
use language so we don't even have to talk about
abuse with young children specifically, which is amazing because a
lot of parents say to me, oh, Christy, I don't
know how to talk to my kids.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I don't want to make them scared.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
And I asked my eighteen year old last week or
the week before and put it on socials. I said,
did you grow up scared of being sexually abused and
with everything that I've taught you and everything I've told you,
And she said, no, I didn't. What I was scared
of is when my nana told me that I could
be kidnapped from the toilets at the shops if I
did go with her, and so, you know, like said
(23:02):
things like that. Older generations use like fear tactics to
make kids stay with them. If you run away, someone.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Will steal you, or if you do this.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
So she said, that's when I got scared, or if
someone acted inappropriately around me, and that would make me
scared in the moment. But she said, you never made
me scared because you always gave me the next step,
what to do next. So we talk to kids about,
you know, if someone touches their private parts, and we've
got body safety rules, which is my body is my body.
No one's allowed to touch my body unless I give them
(23:31):
permission to. If anyone needs to look at my private parts,
like a nurse or a doctor or someone in regards
to you know, because I need help. Then my safe
adults with me and who are safe adults. They're the
people who make me feel safe and they listen to me,
believe me, and always make me feel safe.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So do you think excuse my bad singing here? But
Lola has a song they run it at daycare and
it goes, please stop. I don't like it. I need
some space, just my boundary. And I'm like, it's a
great song, it's a good message. And I'm doing her
hair and She'll start singing the song going please stop,
(24:09):
and I'm like, well, how do I enforce the fact that.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
You need to brush your hair?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
That's it?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And that the fact that she doesn't want me in
a space it's redundant because I need to get aroundy
in school.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
Yeah, right, So a lot of kids will say my body,
my rules, I don't need to do the dishes because
or my body my rules, I don't need to brush
my teeth kind of thing. And I always say, when
it comes to my body, my rules and my body
my space, please get out of my private place or
whatever it is. You know, they little bubble because they
do teach them in early childhood because kids go around hugging,
(24:41):
kids going like you know, they get in their faces.
So that's a really good way to help kids understand, like,
this is my space. No one's allowed in it unless
I want you to be. But one of the things
that I say to parents is if it doesn't break
a body safety rule, it doesn't count. So, for instance,
doing dishes isn't breaking a body safe rule.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
No, no one's seeing.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Anything, touching anything, doing anything that's going to make you
feel unsafe. Dude, you got You're part of the family.
We're all here as a team.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
You've got to do the dishes.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Try pull that one.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I can't do it body my choice.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
But you know, like kids, try it.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
And you know what I also say is, wow, you
so got the body safety rules.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Well done. Guess what doesn't count on this part?
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Do you say I'm one of your safe people?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Is that well?
Speaker 5 (25:24):
Safe people are someone who listens, believes, and always makes
them feel safe. So what we really need to be
mindful of is our body tells us that we feel
unsafe before our brain catches up. And for most children,
they will realize that they feel unsafe before they actually
can verbilize it. So it's really important that we give
them the language of what unsafe and safe feels like.
(25:44):
So I always start with the safe feelings. What's it
feel like in your body when you feel safe or happy?
Because that's an easy one for little ones. My daughter
used to say, Oh, I feel like I'm getting a
warm hug and my heart feels big, and oh it
just feels so nice. And I'd be like, oh, cool, cool,
all right, So what does it feel like when you
don't feel safe or you feel scared? And she would
be like, oh, I get butterflies in my tummy, feel
(26:06):
I get a stomach ache, big one for kids who
don't feel safe. I get a stomach ache, my head hurts,
you know, I can't speak. There's lots of things, right, okay,
So when you feel those feelings, that's really important that
we know that that means that we don't feel safe
right now. And then what we do is we tell someone.
We tell someone on our safety team, our five safe people,
(26:26):
And who do you think would be on your safety team?
Someone who listens to you, believes you, and makes you
feel safe, makes you feel happy and warm, and that
could be mum, dad, nana, whoever and you know as
they age that team will change. It could add in
a teach, or it could be family friend. But kids
need to know first of all, how it feels to
feel unsafe and safe, and second of all who they
(26:46):
can go to, because that's the next step. When you
feel those feelings, you go and tell someone. Now to
add to that safe and unsafe, there's a little bit
more to it because there's risking on purpose and fun
to be scared, going on a ride at the movie.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
World or whatever.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
To be scared, right, you're going to have those scary
feelings in your body before you do it, but you
get that adrenaline rush it makes me, or going down
a slide for a little kid. Right, But that risking
on purpose could be coming on this podcast, could be
talking in public, It could be standing up in your
classroom and reading out loud. And then there's feeling unsafe,
it's feeling scared. So there's a continuum, and when we
(27:22):
help our kids understand each of those feelings, they're able
to either a push through it or be if it's
fun to be scared or risking on purpose, or they
can tell someone and we can then help them make
them feel safe.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Again, because I would think, like also nervousness.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah, that's one of the ones.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
But kids, you know, like they can learn to stand
up and do talk in class, but they have to
feel like when we squash down feelings and we don't
acknowledge them, we can't help them understand it.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
So that's why it's really important.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I think my biggest fear as a parent having these
conversations with my children, my daughters now almost seven and five.
I think I'm most scared about, like you mentioned before,
giving them too much information where it's really overwhelming for them.
You've got a great game where you can tailor the
conversations two specific age groups. Yeah, can you talk us
(28:13):
through the differences and that what those age groups are like?
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Yeah, So the conversations with kids cards, they're like conversation
starters for parents basically, and it goes through those early
warning signs that safety team. Public versus private parts and
public versus private is not just what are my public parts?
Speaker 3 (28:29):
What are my private parts?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
It's spaces, you know, toilets and bathrooms, it's and bedrooms.
It could be clothes. What are our public and private clothes?
So we're helping kids understand you know what are just
for us, because private's just for us. Public is for everyone.
So you know, if we help them, then imagine all
of the questions. So we started like wonder four. But
you can talk about these things with your family from
(28:53):
before you're with your newborn, and it goes through you
know what is our private parts using the correct anatomical names.
And also you know, when we're doing things with our kids,
especially little ones, we can talk them through what we're
doing because safe adults don't just do things, they explain it.
Safe adults say hey, I'm just going to change and nappy.
I'm just putting this cream on. I'm about to like
(29:14):
would you like help today or would you like to
do it yourself?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
You're giving them an option.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
That's what safe adults do. Unsafe adults don't.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Very true think about that, like whenever we anything like
with the kids, like for example, I Macy gets a
lot of XMA right in certain spots. It's like, hey,
I was going to put this cream on.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, okay, and explain it to it yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And then be like does it feel better when I
put the cream on? Or you know, even just that
and she'll be like yeah, yeah, because I mean, she
trusts us, right, so.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
And she needs to understand what's happening to her body.
Speaker 5 (29:41):
It's her body, absolutely, And so the thing is is
unsafe people people who groom kids and who abuse kids.
They don't actually tell them what they're doing. They create
a game, like they make it into a game if
they're little, they game a fire abuse so that the
children are confused and don't understand what's happening.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
And I've got.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
Cards that help with like what is a se secret
and what is the surprise?
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Do you have this question in your family?
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Because if I was to surprise their mom with something, yeah,
like hey, I got your mom this, don't tell her yet,
we'll all turn together. Oscar straight up is an arc.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
He can't help He can't help it trying to keep secrets. Yeah, beautiful,
I surprise.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
This is a surprise, And say, adults don't ask kids
to keep secrets, so they can ask them to keep surprises.
Surprises are there's a time limit, there's no body safety
rules being broken.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
And then also you can tell someone if you need to.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
So surprises are like birthday surprises, Christmas surprises, things like that.
Because it's got to set time limit and you can
tell someone eventually. Secrets are things like someone doing something
inappropriately to your body, someone who tells you not to
tell your mom. And I'm sorry for any grandparents listening,
but grandparents please stop telling you kids. Don't tell mom
and dad because you.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Have a chocolate, but don't tell mommy because you'll get.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
You're the adult a few you're the adult. So here's
what I want to say. And I know that this
is like for some people they're like, oh, but that's
what groomers do. And so the thing is is you're
an adult. Be an adult and take responsibility if you
give her chocolate, and you have.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
To own that.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
My daughter used to go to her Nan, who used
to say, don't tell your mom you're getting a hot
chocolate at Dome, or don't tell you mom you're getting
a squash frog or whatever it was, Oh god, and.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Don't tell mom.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
And she'd go, I'm telling mom when I get home,
and she and you know, like she would be straight up.
Nan gave me a squash frog, and you know, I
had to have conversation with her and say, listen, you're
the adult.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Be the adult.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
If you're going to give hers something, you know that
I don't want her to have, then you need to
own up.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
For it and take the consequences whatever.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
That be very true.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, And that's because it's so black and white
for me, and I've got heaps and heaps of blogs
on this.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Safe people don't ask kids to keep secrets.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
It's so easy.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
It's so easy. Like, for example, like yesterday Macie was
like my younger she's four, and she were all in
the house before my wife was taking my elders to school,
and she's like, mom, we came, I have some tiny
teddies And it was like, no, it's the morning or whatever.
And then I'm they left and rushing around the house
and and Macey was like to me, can I have
some tiny tears? I'm like, yeah, okay, And I nearly went,
(32:17):
don't tell your mom, like just as a react a reaction.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
I'm going to give your high five for that, thank.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
You, thank you, And I was like and I was like,
I didn't say it because I was like, well, that's
a secret. And it was like, well, you know, if
she wants to tell mom, it's fine, I'll tell mom now.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
But like it's so easy, by the way I gave
it tiny teddy.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
But so easy to just slip that in there that like,
don't tell them, even when you're like, hey, don't tell them,
I gave you this. You think they might think it's
really cute and whatever, But unfortunately it all unsaved people
do it.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
The unsafe people do it.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
And it also teaches kids to keep secrets from family.
Like the one of the body safety rules is, we
don't keep secrets. You know, it's a it's a body,
it's a family rule. We don't keep secrets in our
family because secrets can lead to you know, it can
be dangerous, so you know, and I want parents to
know that some things we don't talk to our kids about. No,
(33:06):
And I never spoke about abuse to my daughter. I
never used the language abuse until she got older. And
you asked about when do you start talking about it, well,
with regards to body safety and having these questions and
you know, using private and public, in secret, surprise and
inappropriate appropriate. Eventually then I could talk to her about
private and public pictures and videos.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
And then so I.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
Never really talked to her about pornography. I just said,
if you ever see anyone with no clothes on on
your device, you need to come and tell me, because
that's not for kids. It was like simple and she
was like ah okay, like it was never you know,
like she never got in trouble for it.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
That's the other thing.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
We have to learn how to react better, because children
test us with the little stuff before they trust us
with the big stuff. And if we react to every
little thing, they're not going to trust us with the
big things.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Well said, Actually, I think this conversation with kids. Cards
are so great. And there's not just one set. How
many is there?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Yeah, so's them.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
It's wonder four, five to eight, and nine to twelve,
and then nine to twelve goes into more like the
private and public pictures, and yeah, have a look. What
do we do and say if someone says don't tell
mummy and daddy, we say, we don't keep secrets. See
the reason why these are all around my experience with
what people do to groom kids, you know, groomers and
(34:21):
people who harm kids. They will test kids to see
if they will hold secrets, with whether they'll keep secrets,
So they will test them with little things. They will
give them treats, they will give them special treatment. They
will do things like touch them inappropriately or run their
hand on them and see if they will say something
to a parent, and that's how they know whether that
child is actually they can go to the next phase
(34:42):
of the grooming and abuse or if they stop. And
if your child speaks up and says, stop it, I
don't like it. And my daughter used to say that
to her grandparents when they tickled her.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
She'd be like, stop it, I don't like it.
Speaker 5 (34:52):
And I had to have a conversation with her grandfather
because he kept tickling and I was like, hey, she
said stop. Like that's the other things adults safe, adults.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
We should be.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
Respecting no and showing them that adults and everyone should
respect your consent and your boundaries. If you say no,
and you know, like sometimes we rough house with our
kids and we're playing rough and like they go no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
You go, hey, is that a real no?
Speaker 5 (35:15):
Or is that a like play no? And just stop
for a check check in good, Okay, We'll keep going.
You make sure you tell me a few maybe have
a like a code word or something like that. But
my daughter used to say, stop it, I don't like it.
I had to have a conversation because you know, people
were going past that, but when she got to a
certain note, she said, stop it.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I don't give consent. And then she was about ten, And.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
So if your ten year old goes, stop it, I
don't give consent for you to do that.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I don't want you to hug me.
Speaker 5 (35:43):
Do you think anyone's going to go near your kid?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah? Yeah, that gets super serious really because Macy's a
shocker for that, Like she's my kids are so ticklings,
like you can literally touch with it. Yeah, She'll be
like stop, starts and I'll stop, and then she'll go
do it. I didn't mean stop to get water, And
I was like, well, which.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
One is it?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, maybe a code word would be good.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
But you know, like the thing is is that if
you check in and they're cool for you to keep going,
then you know. The thing is games should always be
fun for everyone. And one of the things that I
talk about is that when games go because again, games
can be turned into inappropriate things that it breaks body
safety rules. Not everyone gets to choose to play the game,
(36:23):
as in not everyone has a choice whether they want
to keep going or when things happen. So the cards
help you have those conversations and start those conversations and
just I mean there's no scripts with it yet, but
you know, they just help you sit down. I don't
recommend sitting across a table like this and having a
conversation with your kids. I actually recommend, and it's in
(36:44):
the guidebook that you know, you find a space where
you're sitting side by side. Kids don't want to be
looked at when we're talking about this stuff. And I
used everyday moments sometimes, like when we're having a shower,
or when we're you know, like she's getting changed. I
would use moment it's in the car talking to each other,
all of those things. In fact, my daughter at eight,
she came to me and said, I don't want to
(37:06):
ever have sex. And I was like, whoa. We hadn't
had that full conversation. She knew like nude people, mums
and dads, but she'd never like I'd never sat down
and like explained sex.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
To her at all.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
She goes, I don't ever want to have sex, and I.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa?
Speaker 5 (37:23):
First of all, what do you know about sex? And
she's like, oh, and that's a good question. So if
your kids ever come to you and say what's this?
You say, oh, what do you know about it? Because
they've heard it somewhere, right, and you want to know
where they've heard it from or where they've seen it.
And I was like, okay, so what do you know
about sex? Oh no, it's too gross, I'm not talking
about it. And she did that for two or three
days before I managed to get her in the car
(37:44):
side by side. She couldn't escape. And that is the
thing that is the key to hard topics with and
usually you have to time it perfectly with just one
child if you can, because that and I know the
lot of parenting experts say that you want to be
one on one with those kids because you need give
them one hundred percent attention and grassed and embarrassment. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, So she was one on one with me.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
She was actually on her way to ballet in a
two two and her pink little leotard eight years old going,
I'm never having sex. And I was like, Okay, I
know that you've said this a couple of times now,
and you haven't told me what you know about it yet,
but I'm assuming I'm just and correct me if I'm wrong.
But I'm assuming that someone at school has told you
about sex, sex, and they've given you some information, But
(38:28):
how do you know that it's actually correct? I said,
so if you tell me what you know, then I
can tell you if it's true or not. And she
sat there for a bit and she goes, okay, and
she said, it's when a man puts his penis in
a woman's vagina and stuff comes out the end of it,
and a baby's made like really blurted it out as
fast as possible.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
And I was like driving my little two door high on.
I gets on.
Speaker 5 (38:52):
The freeway at one hundred kilometers and now to ballet,
and she's gone, is it true?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
And I how old?
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Was she?
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Eight?
Speaker 6 (39:00):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (39:00):
And so this was a kid at school has told.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Her all of this right, older siblings.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
Well, she'd read a book the girl who actually told her,
and it was it was an older girl. She was
a year older, but she was held down a year.
So she's gone around and told all the kids in
year three about this, and she'd read it in a
book because she was quite smart.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
But anyway, so she said to me, and is it true?
Speaker 5 (39:21):
And I've sat there and I like driving my car
and I'm thinking in my mind in that moment. I
just had this moment of like, if I don't tell
her the truth, she's never going to trust me. And
I need to make her realize that it's okay to
talk about this. And we've talked about other stuff like
body safety stuff, and so I said, yes, it's true,
kind of yes it's.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
True, admitting it. Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
It's true, like believe it or not.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
I'm really good at talking to kids, but talking to
your own kid hard. It's like you're freaking out and
I'm not. I feel for parents. That's why I keep
talking to parents and saying it's okay if you stuff
this up, because it's no there's there's no guidebook to this.
But I was like, yes, yes it's true, and she's gone, Ah,
that's so gross.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I always thought as a parent the situations that I
will be most fearful of sleepovers and also sporting events.
You know, coaches have a level of access to your
children that is far greater than what most people do.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
So I always thought.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
I would be more aware of trying to identify someone
who may be a bit suspect. But is there anything
that I can do to really arm myself to make
sure that those situations are as safe as can be
for my children.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
Yeah. So there was research in twenty nineteen with child
sex offenders. They asked the question, what stopped you from
offending or what stopped you you did all the grooming
or you tried to groom a child, what stopped you
from actually facilitating the offense? And the answer was the
non compliance of the child eighty four percent of the time,
So the child put up a resistance or the child
(40:59):
when told a parent. So that tells me that although
it's not a child's job to keep themselves safe, it's
not it's not their job, it's our job as parents
and adults. But that tells me that a child who
is confident, empowered, who knows their body safety right, so
who knows when it's not okay and appropriate for something
like someone acting inappropriately and they say something, then that's
(41:21):
going to put them off and they're going to move
on to the next child. And I know that from
speaking to children. The other thing was sixteen percent was
a protective parent. So us as parents stepping in and
saying this is appropriate or inappropriate, or for instance, when
my daughter was doing sport, I would be like, okay,
this is appropriate behavior. They're not allowed to and your
child isn't at that age yet. But I don't think
(41:43):
it's appropriate for coaches to be on Snapchat or messenger
with kids, right. It should be direct contact with parents.
And the people we look out for are the ones
who are always offering to bring everyone home, trying to
get alone with kids, right, maybe pushing boundary. And the
thing about grooming is is that they don't just groom children.
(42:03):
They groom adults as well, and predators or people who
want to harm kids. They look for kids who have
you know, maybe they don't have both parents that live
in the same home anymore, or maybe they've got illness
in the family and their parents are struggling, so they're
looking for targets that are a bit more vulnerable than
the average child, you know. So the more protective we act,
the more that we are around for our kids during sports.
(42:26):
And one of the things I did as a coach,
and this kind of is the God's standard in my mind.
I taught my daughter's netball team for about five years
and I used to have all of the parents on
messenger and every bit of you know, this is when
training is, this is when our game is. All of
stuff was to parents, and then they got to a
certain age and everyone was like, can you just talk
to the kids, And I said, no, you can add
your kids into the group chat, but you have to
(42:48):
be in there with them otherwise I'm not going to
be conversing with them. And that's me putting in a
boundary to be a safe adult. That's me saying, you
need to pick your kids up, or you need to
let me know who is picking them up. If you
require me to take your child home, if you ask me,
and I was happy to do it. Sometimes my daughter
was always in the car. It was never one on one.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
I mean, look, I.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
Consider myself as safe adult, but ten to twelve percent
of child sex offenders could be female. If I was
trying to abuse a child. It's a great opportunity to
try and abuse a child getting them one on one,
being that person that they mentors, kids that kids look
up to. So yeah, so it's more about the safe
adults around them that put in boundaries and keep safe spaces.
(43:29):
You know, they're open to criticism, they're open to being
you know, if you've got concerns. One of the things
that really annoys me is when parents say to me, oh,
you know, I've spoken to my school and they've just
like basically not listened or they've not spoken to me.
You know, it's it takes little to make.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Parents feel safe.
Speaker 5 (43:46):
If they're more than willing to listen to your concerns,
then you're going to feel like they're a safe person, right. So,
and same with early childhood education and stuff like that.
So sleepovers is another one for me. Sleepovers is one
of the biggest risks for childhood sexual abuse. And it
doesn't matter if it's a friend or if it's a relative,
it can be a really big problem. Not only that
(44:07):
is it could be an adult or it could be
a child, because up to fifty percent of child sexual
abuse in Australia is by other children. So wow, and
what we call that is harmful sexualized behavior. So whether
it be by an adult in that home or another
child in that home, it could be the friend that
they're staying with, it could be whatever.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
A lot of kids don't realize that kids just being kids.
Speaker 5 (44:26):
Or the exploratory behavior is actually harmful and so it
requires us to step in as protective.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Adults for my children. Are there any signs that I
can look out for from them that something may or
may have happened.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
Yeah, well you know your kid's best right, like you
know them inside out hopefully, And so if their behavior,
behavior is a form of language. Our kids tell us
through behavior. Sometimes they don't even have the words, but
they'll tell us through how they behave. So if they
have a complete change in behavior from being you know,
the happy, go lucky kid to the really angry, violent child,
(44:59):
you know that's something to be It might not mean
that there've been abused, but something's going on in their world.
They could be getting bullied at school or somewhere right.
The next thing is is that if they are talking
about or doing something that is outside of their experience.
So with harmful sexualized behaviors, for instance, if when a
child harms another child, or a child's been sexually abused,
they might show sexualized behaviors that they shouldn't know. You know,
(45:21):
young children, it's normal for them to you know, joke
around about farts and bums and private parts, but it's
not normal for them to ask them to put something
in private parts or do things that's not normal behavior
that's showing signs of they're doing something more than their
age and stage development. So you know, if your child's
showing sexualized behaviors above and beyond what they should be normal.
(45:43):
And also if they start refusing to go somewhere or
they don't want to go with a person, something's happening.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
It might not mean abuse.
Speaker 5 (45:50):
It could mean that that person doesn't feel safe anymore
or they're not feeling secure in that relationship anymore, but
it could mean that something's happened. So those are some
of the warning signs that I would watch out for.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
And if I am picking up on some of those,
what's the best way to open that dialogue?
Speaker 5 (46:06):
Yeah, so some of the ways that I would say
to kids. And He's the thing, right, a lot of
us didn't grow up having these conversations with our parents, No,
not at all, you know, So a lot of us
don't know how to have these conversations because no one
ever did it with us.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
So one of the ways that.
Speaker 5 (46:19):
I really and kids really respond well when we say,
you know what, but no one ever talked to me
about this, And you know, I'm still learning, and I
realized that I haven't actually asked you if you know,
does everyone in the house make you feel safe? Does
anyone ever make you feel unsafe? So you can start
it like that. I always started conversations with taking some
responsibility for not having the words or the knowledge, like
(46:41):
you know, hey, I'm learning this, Like tell me, is
there anything that I need to know right now that's
making you feel unsafe? For is anyone in our It
doesn't matter who it is or I just want you
to know that nothing you ever do can ever make
me stop loving you.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Nothing that ever.
Speaker 5 (46:56):
Happens in your day or in your life will ever
make me stop loving you. Because the thing that really
got me when I was interviewing kids is that most
of them took on the responsibility and the accountability of
that abuse on themselves. They thought they were to blame,
and they were the ones who blamed themselves. I was naughty,
I did the wrong thing, because that's what abuses do
to kids. They put the responsibility on the child, and
(47:19):
the child takes on that responsibility as a parent.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
We just need to go.
Speaker 5 (47:23):
Nothing you can ever do will ever make me stop
loving you. And if you ever need to talk to
me about anything, I will always be here to listen
to you. My job is to love and protect you,
and sometimes we do things that we might think that
we're responsible for. But you're the child and I'm the adult,
and it's my responsibility.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
I'd love to get your take on this situation which
happened to me a couple of weeks ago. We were
at the RSL having dinner and as I was at
the bar about to order a drink, my daughter came
up to me and an older man who I think
it had a couple and he that balance. He was
a bit of a cheeriold guy, but he was patting
my daughter's head and say, oh, you're such a pretty girl.
(48:03):
And you know, it happened quite quickly where you know,
next thing, I had my drink and I was out
of there. And afterwards I was thinking, do I just
walk away from that? You know, he could just be
a nice old guy.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
It's a bit creepy, though, or do I.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
In that moment confront and make a scene in front
of my daughter to make her know that it wasn't aware.
How would you react in that situation.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
I'm a bit cheeky.
Speaker 5 (48:24):
I would have rubbed his head and said, oh, aren't
you a cute old man? Because you know, like I
don't think some people actually even think about what they do.
It's not appropriate to touch other people without their consent,
you know. And I think there's a generation still around
that hasn't really thought about these things, and they don't
actually consider people's wants, needs, or you know, their bodily autonomy.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
I think, I know you're talking about.
Speaker 5 (48:50):
Look, look, that's just how they were brought up and
that's what they think. And you know, there's a sense
of sometimes there's a sense of entitlement. Not all some
of the grandparents that I speak to and the older generation,
so like we just didn't no one talked about this.
You know. I've had eighty year old women come and
disclose their abuse to me that you know. I wrote
my book Operation Kids Safe, and in there there's a
(49:10):
whole topic of consent, right, and how we just really
don't look into it and we don't think about consent.
And my grandmother came to me and she goes, you know,
I realized that most of my relationships in my life
were not consensual. All of my Yeah, she goes, I
never had a choice. And when you put it like that,
it's really impactful, Like she goes, I just didn't realize
(49:31):
because I just thought I had to.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, Well, the work that you're doing is so important. Yeah,
I think it's really amazing. And I can't wait to
go home with these cards and make my daughters as
strong as can be.
Speaker 3 (49:44):
That's my That makes my heart happy.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Yeah, we get we get to interview a lot of
people on here, and I think able to pick your
brain on this stuff has been amazing. I mean, Matt
and I are in the prime of young kids, and.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
You're at the best point of parenting.
Speaker 5 (49:58):
Like your children have will have the lessons that will
make a difference for them and their future because these
lessons I taught my daughter from two and when she
was in year eleven, she came home one day and
she said she had a group of five to six
girls in her group and she was the only one
who hadn't been sexually abused. Wow, And I said, how
did you get onto this conversation? They were like, oh,
they found out what you do, and like they all
(50:20):
were disclosing abuse to me and so so yeah, and
I was like wow, and she goes, I was the
only one who hadn't been sexually abused.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
As horrific as that is, it must make you so
proud of the work that you had done with your daughter.
Speaker 5 (50:33):
It does, and it makes me and everything that I
teach and everything that I share online is you know,
and I do get criticized from parents who are like, no,
it's not that bad and it doesn't happen. I think
we don't want to look at the world that way,
and I don't look at the world that way. I
know that there's a lot of good people out there,
and a lot of good parents and a lot of
good kids and stuff like that, but we don't know
(50:53):
what we don't know, and if we don't know, then
we're just opening the door to more happening that we
didn't bargain for. It's better to know and to put
things in place, like have those conversations. If there was
one thing that I could say, is that just have
a conversation with your kids about body safety. Because in
all of my career, the kids who had this information
(51:13):
spoke up. Quicker, got to safety, quicker, got healing, quicker.
The ones who didn't didn't have that and they and
you know, went on to affect their whole lives. So
for me, it's just a no brainer.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
It's amazing work. Christy or a combat wand bat, Thank
you so much, Thank you so much, Thank you Ash.
There is so much important information in this episode, Matt.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
I wasn't sure what to expect through that episode, but
the amount of information and the little tidbits that I've
learned along the way made that such an incredible episode.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
You know so many important take homes, so I hope
you as a listener benefited from it. If you have
enjoyed this episode, please we would love it as always
if you would leave a review, either an upper podcast Hey,
even Spotify if you like. You can't leave reviews for
the whole series. You have to do specific comments for
the episode on Spotify, just so you know every.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Episode, or you can join us on YouTube where you
can leave more comments, Instagram, TikTok, and our Facebook group
Two Doting Dads, or send us an email if you
want hello at two Doting Dance dot com.
Speaker 6 (52:12):
Thanks guys, bye.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
throughout Australia and the connections to land, see and community.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight islander
peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadagal Land.
Matt, we always claim that we don't give advice, but
every so often it's nice to get someone in who
knows what they're talking about.
Speaker 2 (00:21):
Just to confirm the advice is definitely not coming from
us one hundred. But we do have an expert here.
We have Christy mcvee. She is a mum, she's also
an ex detective, and she's talking about a topic which
for a lot of parents will be quite triggering. So
just to let you know, the content from this episode
does talk about sexual abuse and children.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
So after many years of being on the police force,
she has gathered what she has learned and decided to
put it into prevention and educating parents and how to
have those conversations with kids.
Speaker 2 (00:51):
Yeah, this is such an important episode. I think we
all want nothing but safety for our kids. To this
episode will give you the information to help build confidence
and empower your children.
Speaker 1 (01:00):
That includes both what information should be shared at what
age group, and also other things to look out for some.
Speaker 2 (01:05):
Of the warning signs if you are going to have
a conversation, how to open up that dialogue.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
There's no doubt, Matt, we all love our kids, but
we can't be there for them all the time. So
it's important to arm them with the information to help
them stay safe.
Speaker 2 (01:17):
Ultimately, we want to protect them as best as we can.
Welcome back to two doting dads and one doting mom.
I am Maddie Jay.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
I'm Ash and I'm the combat wat Yes, you can tell.
Speaker 4 (01:31):
Us that this is a podcast all about parenting.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
It is good as the bad and we don't give advice,
but the combat Wombat will on this episode. Why is
it the combat Wombat.
Speaker 5 (01:42):
Because when I was in the police academy, I apparently
I ran like a warmbat and that is the nickname
the men in my school. I've ran like this with
my and if any of these blokes are watching you
or ourselves, Yeah, and they didn't even tell me until
the end of the academy, like they'd been calling me
(02:03):
this for six months. That's me, you know what, I'm
going to own it.
Speaker 4 (02:08):
I love the name.
Speaker 5 (02:09):
But yeah, because I read like this like a little
apparently like a little wombat.
Speaker 4 (02:14):
Very fast. That's quick, how far.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
They're also sturdy.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
They're all so strong.
Speaker 5 (02:18):
That was me there and I never gave up.
Speaker 4 (02:22):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (02:24):
But again, once again to those bullies listening, report.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
Yes we do start these podcasts with a simple question,
and it is do you remember the most trouble you
got into as a child.
Speaker 5 (02:36):
I got into a fair bit of trouble around my teens,
late teens. So I wrote a note to my best
friend in English, and I got caught and I got
center boarding school.
Speaker 4 (02:47):
Oh what what can I note?
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Were you writing nothing?
Speaker 5 (02:49):
It was just talking to each other. But it got
me sent to boarding school. Holy, I know, I know,
I was just sneeze and they expelled me.
Speaker 4 (02:59):
Knows the school was this is the right of passage?
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Was it?
Speaker 3 (03:01):
That's right?
Speaker 5 (03:01):
We had like a book that we wrote all of
our like back and forth.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
So I found by the way, I found my wife's book.
Speaker 5 (03:08):
Yeah, sorry, John read it from high school. Yeah yeah,
so you know what I'm talking about. Yeah, girls be
mean and books like.
Speaker 4 (03:15):
Oh it was mean.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Yeah so yeah.
Speaker 5 (03:19):
I don't even remember what was in it or what
I wrote. But I got caught and my English teacher wrong,
my parents, And then the next thing I was and
it was at the end of the year.
Speaker 3 (03:26):
So then the next year I went to boarding school.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
Do you think the decision for boarding school did that
come from the teacher?
Speaker 5 (03:31):
As in, no, this is the parents the parents decided, oh,
you're too much trouble.
Speaker 3 (03:36):
We don't want to deal with a teenager. Let's send
it a boarding just like that.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
That's not even that bad.
Speaker 5 (03:40):
I know. No, there was probably lots of like think
thoughts around that. My parents were much older, they had
some health problems. But that's what I thought at fifteen,
Like at thirteen, I mean like, oh, I've just written
a note and it got me in trouble.
Speaker 6 (03:53):
So yeah, you'd be like, fuck you guys, looking for
a way out here?
Speaker 5 (03:57):
It is wow, I felt like, But I know that
there was a lot more to it. But you know,
parents didn't talk about this stuff back in the day,
Like they didn't tell you their decisions. You just you're
going to boarding school next year. Like we don't talk about,
you know, troubles with the family off or if there's
any issues with money or anything like that.
Speaker 4 (04:18):
Was it co ed? Was it same sex?
Speaker 5 (04:20):
It was same sex. It was a very expensive boarding school.
I didn't fit in because I was a pilbrig kid.
I'm a country kid by heart.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
See I kind of thought this is incorrectly here, But
I thought someone who would end up being a detective
would be the school principal. Yeah, the prefect, the person
who was like, put your hat on detension.
Speaker 5 (04:39):
Yeah, well I got caught like smoking in the stairwell.
I just was rebelling ravel Yeah, I was just rebelling
back then, you know, like as a teenager does, like
kids do kid things, and so it just it shouldn't
be the end of the world and you shouldn't get
sent to boarding school. But it just felt like I
was being punished.
Speaker 2 (04:56):
So then what was it that drew you down the
path of being in the police force.
Speaker 5 (05:00):
I thought I wanted to be a pilot in the
Air Force because I love top gun when I was
a kid.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
Guilty, Yeah, do you know Maverick all that goose?
Speaker 1 (05:09):
I never said it. Look at the faces in the room.
Get out serious.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
I think I'll take this record from that. What Yeah,
that's it.
Speaker 3 (05:21):
You have to take him to go watch both movies.
Speaker 4 (05:25):
He can't watch movies.
Speaker 3 (05:26):
Oh really one of them? Okay, great film, the great film. Yeah,
So I thought I so, I thought.
Speaker 5 (05:34):
I thought I wanted to be an Air Force pilot
when I was a kid, But growing up I never
had any plans and ambitions. I actually got kicked out
at home at fifteen so I spent three years living
with my boyfriend's family and then bought a house at eighteen,
went down the path of working, and at the ripe
old age of twenty eight, saw an ad in the
paper and it said we want more women in the
(05:56):
police in the Western Shrolian Police. I had a nine
month old daughter, and I went, I could do that.
Everyone laughed at me, and I thought, fuck you, I'm
going to go and show you.
Speaker 3 (06:04):
So I did good for you.
Speaker 4 (06:05):
Any desire prior to that, never not a thing. You
were influenced by a paper?
Speaker 3 (06:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (06:11):
Wow.
Speaker 5 (06:11):
I was reading it during my daughter's nap time, Like
I was literally at home waiting stay at home mum
at the time. She was nine months old having a
nap and I saw it and I was like, ooh yeah,
And it was like, you know, flexible working arrangements, interesting
career paths, you get a gun, all of that, and
so I thought, yeah, I could do that. And it
stuck with me because days later I actually spoke up
(06:34):
and said something to my husband and he kind of went,
are you sure, Are you serious? And I was like yeah,
because I'd worked in administrat Yeah, I'd worked in administration.
I'd been working in offices, and I didn't know what
I wanted to go back to when I finished, like
maternity leave. And he's very supportive. My husband was, He's like, yeah,
give it a go. If you get in, you get in.
But when I told the rest of my family, they
(06:54):
were like that nice one.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Yeah, family.
Speaker 3 (06:59):
Supportive.
Speaker 5 (06:59):
So I started training like my daughter would have as
nap during the day. We lived on a six acre
property because I had horses, and I used to do
hill sprints and my neighbor used to see me every
day because she was at home with her kid, and
she'd send me a message, going good run today. And
then I had got a pete. Took me about ten months,
maybe twelve months to get in. I applied in about
(07:20):
two thousand and nine, April two thousand and nine actually,
and then got the letter in November two thousand and
nine to say I got a place in the squad.
Speaker 2 (07:27):
Is it rude and sorry to be naive here to
say you're a cop?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Like is that in any way to a rock a track?
Speaker 5 (07:34):
Great?
Speaker 4 (07:34):
Because my mom was like, don't call her a cop.
Speaker 3 (07:37):
That's what we call each other.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Your mom. Actually, she grabbing, like the toughest time just like,
don't call them cops.
Speaker 5 (07:42):
Yeah, it would be rude if you called me any
other name like pig or Oh.
Speaker 2 (07:47):
Yeah, what is the pathway to being a detective? And
when you entered the force, was that always the goal
where you want to end up?
Speaker 5 (08:01):
I didn't know, Like I joined the police, I went
through the academy. Six months in the academy. My daughter
was just two when I got in, like and or
turned to when I was in there, and so I
didn't have any ideas where I was going with it.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
I just thought okay.
Speaker 5 (08:14):
And then my husband actually got a transfer to the
Pilbro back to the Pilbury and Karatha, and so I said,
can I move to Karatha because he's up there and
you know, we've got a young daughter. So they transferred
me up there. So that was my first posting. I
did four years in the Pilborough, working in a rural community.
Speaker 4 (08:31):
Do you remember your first arrest?
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Yep? Oh yeah, yep. It's very, very vivid in my brain.
Speaker 4 (08:37):
Do you mind sharing.
Speaker 5 (08:38):
It's not a great story. It was a domestic violence
arrest and it wasn't great, but it was a very
eye opening experience because in the academy they're like this
might happen, this might happen. We pretend, you know, like
you're arresting people and they're actors and you know, you're
handcuffing people and it's not in a real situation. And
then you're in a real situation where you have to
(08:59):
jump in.
Speaker 2 (09:00):
How long you've been on the force before. We made
that first arrest.
Speaker 5 (09:03):
The first day of the first and so, you know,
and luckily they put you with someone who's more senior.
You're thrown in the deep end when you go out
into the community. Anyway, So it was an interesting one.
And then yeah, so and I'm like five foot one,
I'm not very tall. Yeah, so it was interesting. I
learned to use my mouth and talk people down.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yeah, I suppose, like first out, you ripped the band
aid off. First day, I think, like, do you reckon?
Do you think after that first one do you sort
of desensitized to it? Oh?
Speaker 5 (09:32):
It takes time, like you train your adrenaline and your
nervous system to like not react to things. You asked
about going into detectives and stuff like that was you know,
I was in the police four years before I joined detectives.
You have to like sort of do your time before
you can, you have to do general duties. You have
to prove that you have the mental capacity and the
(09:53):
rights attitude to become a detective because it's the next
level up. You know, as a general duties police officer,
you're arresting or you're dealing with first response, like you're
attending the situations first up. And I mean, look, there's
a little bit of an US and them thing with
general duties to detectives, because detectives, you know, they wear
their playing clothes and they've got their little badge on
(10:13):
their belt and stuff like that. But you're then dealing
with serious crime, so you have to have more knowledge
around legislation and more knowledge around powers, and you're interviewing
better interviewing techniques, So you have to do some time
doing that before you step into that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
We have a left field on that front for the
men and women of the police force. What sort of
support do they have mentally within that sort of stuff,
because I mean it's traumatic, right, You've got to train
yourself to what just get on with it or do
they provide someone for you to talk to afterwards.
Speaker 5 (10:43):
Look, every police force has their own health and welfare division.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
That's there to support police.
Speaker 5 (10:50):
Each person will have their own opinion on this, but
it needs to be managed and you need support and
you need help. You know, I got depression within the
first three years of being a police and it was
the first time in my life I'd ever had depression.
And the reason it was situational. It was because I
thought I had to be a certain way in order
to be a police officer.
Speaker 3 (11:10):
I thought it had to be hard.
Speaker 5 (11:11):
I couldn't have feelings because you know, within the first
couple of months, I was dealing with sudden deaths, I
was dealing with child abuse, I was dealing with road crashes.
I was dealing with everything. So you lean on the
people beside you. You lean on your partners and your
team because you're in teams and they do their best.
But none of them are psychologists, none of that, you know,
(11:31):
and a lot of police sadly, and I'm sure some
will say, you know, one of the ways that we
dealt with it was to go get drunk. And you know,
the first time I ever went to a sudden death
and I had to give CPR, I was due to
finish work at seven am and they pulled me. I
was about to go home to my family and they're like,
nah ah, you're coming with us. And we went and
got blind and that was really hard because I wasn't
(11:52):
actually a big drinker, but that was how they dealt
with it, and so you had to conform.
Speaker 3 (11:57):
And that was in the first three months.
Speaker 5 (11:59):
So that was kind of the culture, and it can
be the culture of policing. So I'm not telling police
officers anything they don't already know.
Speaker 3 (12:06):
It's not a healthy way to deal with trauma.
Speaker 2 (12:08):
Yeah, yeah, And it's such an old school way of
thinking and it's still there. You don't want to be
that new person. You want to fit in, you don't
want to be Actually, I'm going to go against the
grain and I leave you.
Speaker 3 (12:19):
If you don't fit in, you don't fit in.
Speaker 5 (12:20):
And like towards the end of my career, that's how
it was, like I didn't fit in. But to get
back to your question, within nine months of being a
police officer, the senior sergeant of the detectives went around
to the station and said, who wants to become a
specialist child interviewer? And I put my hand up and
I was a probationary constable at the time, and he said, well,
you can't do it because you're a probationary constable. And
(12:41):
I was like, okay, well, I'd really like to do
it if you don't find anyone else.
Speaker 4 (12:45):
Why did you want to do it. Why did you
put your hand up.
Speaker 3 (12:48):
I don't know.
Speaker 5 (12:49):
I just I just remember feeling like in that first week,
I went to that domestic violence incident, and then I
dealt with a woman who had been abused or a
physically assaulted by a family member. And then and within
the first week, I'd done so many things, but one
of the biggest things I saw was a child who
had been I was the first responder to a child
and an eleven year old child who'd had a sleepover
(13:10):
at her best friend's house and been sexually abused at
that house. And so I had to take the statement
of the family and I was and it was kind
of like I had a three year old at home
or two and a half year old at home, and
I was sitting there thinking, oh my gosh, like I
didn't know, you know, like yes, I know, but I
hadn't had it in my face yet like that. And
then I just had many many more instances after that,
(13:33):
Like within the first six months. You know, it was
week after week of like dealing with all sorts of
sexual abuse and trauma, and so I think I just
felt like, what more can I do?
Speaker 3 (13:43):
Like I wanted to be there.
Speaker 5 (13:45):
I was a mom, I was a mom of a
little girl, and I just wanted to I remember thinking,
I just want to do more for kids, and so
I think that's where that path started, and my daughter
was the reason, and just wanting to know how to
protect her as well. And then yeah, I put my
hand up, he said, And then he couldn't find anyone
else to do it. So I got sent on it,
and you know, and I was in the job less
(14:07):
than nine months, and I became a specialst child interviewer.
Speaker 2 (14:10):
When you feel like you want to make a difference
and protect kids in the time that you spent specializing
in that field, did it feel like you were making
a difference or did it just feel like as soon
as you do it with one case, another one is
right behind it and it's just relentless.
Speaker 3 (14:22):
Yep. The second one, it's hard to explain.
Speaker 5 (14:25):
It's like sitting across a table like this, right, and
there's a camera in the corner and there's a little
microphone on the table and you're talking to a child,
you know, up from three all the way to eighteen,
and in that moment, you're doing something important, you're giving
them a moment that you're giving them a voice. But then,
you know, after the fact, I could tell them how
brave they were, I could tell them how much, you know,
(14:46):
how well they did. I could explain to them that,
you know, it's what happened to them wasn't okay, and
you know that will do our best. That was the
most rawding part of it all. But the system itself
is really not looking after kids, and you don't. And
towards the end of my career, after the nearly after
ten years, I realized that police don't protect kids. They
(15:07):
just clean up the mess after the fact.
Speaker 4 (15:09):
Right man.
Speaker 2 (15:10):
So then, how was it as a mother when you're
dealing with these horrific situations. How do you then take
your detective hat off and then put your mother's hat
on and look after your daughter?
Speaker 3 (15:22):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (15:24):
It was hard because sometimes I would be dealing with,
you know, a child similar age. You know, I look
at them, and I look at my daughter, and it's
like looking at her and I would be you know,
hearing the worst things that had happened to them, and
I would be sitting there thinking, could be my girl,
could be her, and she would, you know, So I
would go home and hug her a bit more and
(15:45):
just basically try and be in the moment with her.
It made me very hypervigilant, very protective, Especially when she
was younger. People always ask me, how is your child
even able to like is she not scared of everything?
And I'm like, no, because I taught her the things that.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
She needed to know.
Speaker 5 (16:00):
I realized throughout my career is that we can't protect
them in a bubble like. We can't keep them home
all the time. We can't wrap them up and cotton bull.
All we can do is arm them, and we can
empower them, and we can let them know exactly what
they need to know. Because I saw kids day in
day out, talking to kids day and day out who
had been sexually abused and abused, and they were so resilient,
(16:21):
and they still were worrying about what they were doing
on the weekends and what their friends were doing, and
what clothes they were buying and could they go to
maccas After they'd spoken to me about the worst things
that had happened like it wasn't stopping them. It was
just another part of their life. And so the thing
is is that, yes, child sexual abuse and what I
was seeing is terrible and it's the worst thing that
(16:41):
could ever possibly happen to anyone. In fact, I've been
quoted as saying that it's worse and murder to me
because it changes the trajectory of a child's life. But
the thing is is that kids don't let that stop them.
If they have safe, protective parents, if they have someone
to help them heal, if they have someone to listen to,
they go on to live full lives. And so what
that's what I knew is that even if she did
(17:03):
get sexually abused, she would be okay when you.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Look at all of the cases over your time in
the fourth I don't know if there's an answer to this,
but could you start to piece together first of all
the situations where this was happening, and then secondly the
type of person that was committing these crimes, Like for me,
maybe it's just what I see in media, but for me,
(17:27):
it's more prevalent among men.
Speaker 3 (17:29):
Yep.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
But is there a certain kind of checklist or criteria
that you can look at that would raise alarm bells.
Speaker 5 (17:36):
Yeah I did, I did see things, but it's it's
not everyone, but it can be anyone.
Speaker 4 (17:40):
Right.
Speaker 5 (17:40):
So the thing was is that yes, it is predominantly
ment around ninety percent as men, but sadly ten to
twelve percent can be women. And we just had a
case in Western Australia of a teacher who sexually abused
a young boy and you know, has been charged pled
guilty and she ended up having his baby. So in
Western Australia just recently, and you know, he was only
(18:02):
in his early teens and sadly, one in four Australian
adults have been sexually abused twenty eight point five percent.
And that's current statistics as of two years ago. You know,
one in three girls and one in five boys will
be sexually abused before they're eighteen.
Speaker 4 (18:17):
Holy shit.
Speaker 3 (18:18):
And it is a.
Speaker 5 (18:19):
Bigger problem than what most people think because we think, oh,
not my family, not my community, not my you know whatever.
But it's in my experience, it's every demographic, every community.
If there's someone in your family that's been sexually abused,
and they might not feel like they can talk speak
up because we don't talk about it in our families.
Speaker 2 (18:39):
How can I, as a parent not that I want
to be looking at everyone with this lens of like,
well are you going to be a fucking pedophile? And
are you going to assault my child? And I also
I'm conscious that I don't want to look at someone
who could be completely innocent and start to think, well,
hang on, they're doing A B and C. Maybe they are.
But at the same time, I want to be vigilant.
What can I look out for?
Speaker 5 (19:00):
Yeah, we call it grooming, but you know, a good
friend of mine, she calls it friending up. So someone
who's really wants to spend more time with kids and adults.
Like I tell a story in some of my presentations
about a family member brings someone to a Christmas party
and they they're the boyfriend of you know, a cousin
or something like that. And this person, this male, he
(19:21):
spent all his time with the kids. He was hanging out,
playing games, gaming with them. Everyone's like, come out and
have a drink outside, and he's like, nah, nah, like
hanging with the kids, and so you know that seems
like really cool because you know he wants to be
around the kids in the end, he did actually attempt
to sexually abuse one of the girls at the at
the Christmas party. Most of the time, it takes a
lot longer, is what I'm about to say. You know,
(19:43):
it's a lot more manipulative and a lot more Yeah,
premeditated is the word. Like, there's a lot more thought
goes into it. You don't do that generally, you're going
to get caught if you do it that fast. But
he was doing that. So someone wants to spend more
time with your kids than you do, that's a red flag.
Speaker 3 (19:59):
But also people.
Speaker 5 (20:00):
Who they're not respecting bodily autonomy for kids. One of
the things that I teach is like, we need to
make sure our kids understand that what their private parts
are and the mouth is a private part, and so
our private parts are our privates. No one else is
allowed to touch, look at, or take photos of our
private parts because you know they're our private parts. And
you don't have to go any more further into it
(20:21):
than that. And anyone who does, you come and tell
one of your safe people, which is you know your
five safe people, and you help them understand who those
people are, you know, Mummy, Daddy, Auntie, nanna. Whoever, when
they get old enough, they choose their safe people, because
we could be choosing someone that might not be safe.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
So there's a parent out there right now listening and
they don't have the phrase of safe people and have
them identified. That should be one thing that you definitely
put at the top of your list.
Speaker 3 (20:45):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (20:45):
You also mentioned then that they have to be old
enough to pick their safe people eventually.
Speaker 5 (20:51):
Yeah, but a lot of kids don't understand or sorry,
it's not that they don't understand, they don't have the language. Ye,
and the language is these are my private parts.
Speaker 3 (20:59):
We name them.
Speaker 5 (21:00):
And number one, make sure that you're using the correct
terminology for body parts. You can have nicknames, but they
need to know both because one of the things that
I found when interviewing kids is that if they weren't
able to disclose what private part was, then most likely
it can't be taken any further. So if they're not
able to say they touched or they did this to
(21:21):
my private part, as a detective, I have to decide
whether it was and I apologize to listeners, but if
it's a sexual penetration or an indecent dealing, whether it's
just touching or if something's actually happened further, so you know,
they need to be able to disclose A child, poor
little child, three, four, five, six years old, has to
be able to say what's happened. So if they can't
name it clearly their private parts and what it is,
(21:44):
the name of it, it can be considered insufficient evidence.
It can't go any further down the judicial pathway.
Speaker 2 (21:50):
With younger children, then how do you put together a
case for those who were really young?
Speaker 5 (21:56):
Yeah, so under three, we don't. Police don't interview children
under the age of three. So if a child is
abused under the age of three, unless there's other evidence,
then nothing happens.
Speaker 1 (22:05):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
And then when you are talking to children, I'm assuming
that the age of the child as a parent will
determine how much information you go into. So what are
those age groups like and how do we tailor the
information specifically to that age Yeah.
Speaker 5 (22:23):
So for instance, and as you can tell, I'm using
certain language like safe, unsafe, appropriate, inappropriate, private, public, We
use language so we don't even have to talk about
abuse with young children specifically, which is amazing because a
lot of parents say to me, oh, Christy, I don't
know how to talk to my kids.
Speaker 3 (22:40):
I don't want to make them scared.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
And I asked my eighteen year old last week or
the week before and put it on socials. I said,
did you grow up scared of being sexually abused and
with everything that I've taught you and everything I've told you,
And she said, no, I didn't. What I was scared
of is when my nana told me that I could
be kidnapped from the toilets at the shops if I
did go with her, and so, you know, like said
(23:02):
things like that. Older generations use like fear tactics to
make kids stay with them. If you run away, someone.
Speaker 3 (23:08):
Will steal you, or if you do this.
Speaker 5 (23:10):
So she said, that's when I got scared, or if
someone acted inappropriately around me, and that would make me
scared in the moment. But she said, you never made
me scared because you always gave me the next step,
what to do next. So we talk to kids about,
you know, if someone touches their private parts, and we've
got body safety rules, which is my body is my body.
No one's allowed to touch my body unless I give them
(23:31):
permission to. If anyone needs to look at my private parts,
like a nurse or a doctor or someone in regards
to you know, because I need help. Then my safe
adults with me and who are safe adults. They're the
people who make me feel safe and they listen to me,
believe me, and always make me feel safe.
Speaker 2 (23:47):
So do you think excuse my bad singing here? But
Lola has a song they run it at daycare and
it goes, please stop. I don't like it. I need
some space, just my boundary. And I'm like, it's a
great song, it's a good message. And I'm doing her
hair and She'll start singing the song going please stop,
(24:09):
and I'm like, well, how do I enforce the fact that.
Speaker 3 (24:12):
You need to brush your hair?
Speaker 4 (24:13):
That's it?
Speaker 2 (24:13):
And that the fact that she doesn't want me in
a space it's redundant because I need to get aroundy
in school.
Speaker 5 (24:19):
Yeah, right, So a lot of kids will say my body,
my rules, I don't need to do the dishes because
or my body my rules, I don't need to brush
my teeth kind of thing. And I always say, when
it comes to my body, my rules and my body
my space, please get out of my private place or
whatever it is. You know, they little bubble because they
do teach them in early childhood because kids go around hugging,
(24:41):
kids going like you know, they get in their faces.
So that's a really good way to help kids understand, like,
this is my space. No one's allowed in it unless
I want you to be. But one of the things
that I say to parents is if it doesn't break
a body safety rule, it doesn't count. So, for instance,
doing dishes isn't breaking a body safe rule.
Speaker 3 (24:57):
No, no one's seeing.
Speaker 5 (24:58):
Anything, touching anything, doing anything that's going to make you
feel unsafe. Dude, you got You're part of the family.
We're all here as a team.
Speaker 3 (25:05):
You've got to do the dishes.
Speaker 4 (25:07):
Try pull that one.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
I can't do it body my choice.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
But you know, like kids, try it.
Speaker 5 (25:14):
And you know what I also say is, wow, you
so got the body safety rules.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
Well done. Guess what doesn't count on this part?
Speaker 4 (25:22):
Do you say I'm one of your safe people?
Speaker 3 (25:23):
Is that well?
Speaker 5 (25:24):
Safe people are someone who listens, believes, and always makes
them feel safe. So what we really need to be
mindful of is our body tells us that we feel
unsafe before our brain catches up. And for most children,
they will realize that they feel unsafe before they actually
can verbilize it. So it's really important that we give
them the language of what unsafe and safe feels like.
(25:44):
So I always start with the safe feelings. What's it
feel like in your body when you feel safe or happy?
Because that's an easy one for little ones. My daughter
used to say, Oh, I feel like I'm getting a
warm hug and my heart feels big, and oh it
just feels so nice. And I'd be like, oh, cool, cool,
all right, So what does it feel like when you
don't feel safe or you feel scared? And she would
be like, oh, I get butterflies in my tummy, feel
(26:06):
I get a stomach ache, big one for kids who
don't feel safe. I get a stomach ache, my head hurts,
you know, I can't speak. There's lots of things, right, okay,
So when you feel those feelings, that's really important that
we know that that means that we don't feel safe
right now. And then what we do is we tell someone.
We tell someone on our safety team, our five safe people,
(26:26):
And who do you think would be on your safety team?
Someone who listens to you, believes you, and makes you
feel safe, makes you feel happy and warm, and that
could be mum, dad, nana, whoever and you know as
they age that team will change. It could add in
a teach, or it could be family friend. But kids
need to know first of all, how it feels to
feel unsafe and safe, and second of all who they
(26:46):
can go to, because that's the next step. When you
feel those feelings, you go and tell someone. Now to
add to that safe and unsafe, there's a little bit
more to it because there's risking on purpose and fun
to be scared, going on a ride at the movie.
Speaker 3 (26:58):
World or whatever.
Speaker 5 (27:00):
To be scared, right, you're going to have those scary
feelings in your body before you do it, but you
get that adrenaline rush it makes me, or going down
a slide for a little kid. Right, But that risking
on purpose could be coming on this podcast, could be
talking in public, It could be standing up in your
classroom and reading out loud. And then there's feeling unsafe,
it's feeling scared. So there's a continuum, and when we
(27:22):
help our kids understand each of those feelings, they're able
to either a push through it or be if it's
fun to be scared or risking on purpose, or they
can tell someone and we can then help them make
them feel safe.
Speaker 1 (27:34):
Again, because I would think, like also nervousness.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
Yeah, that's one of the ones.
Speaker 5 (27:39):
But kids, you know, like they can learn to stand
up and do talk in class, but they have to
feel like when we squash down feelings and we don't
acknowledge them, we can't help them understand it.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
So that's why it's really important.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
I think my biggest fear as a parent having these
conversations with my children, my daughters now almost seven and five.
I think I'm most scared about, like you mentioned before,
giving them too much information where it's really overwhelming for them.
You've got a great game where you can tailor the
conversations two specific age groups. Yeah, can you talk us
(28:13):
through the differences and that what those age groups are like?
Speaker 5 (28:15):
Yeah, So the conversations with kids cards, they're like conversation
starters for parents basically, and it goes through those early
warning signs that safety team. Public versus private parts and
public versus private is not just what are my public parts?
Speaker 3 (28:29):
What are my private parts?
Speaker 5 (28:30):
It's spaces, you know, toilets and bathrooms, it's and bedrooms.
It could be clothes. What are our public and private clothes?
So we're helping kids understand you know what are just
for us, because private's just for us. Public is for everyone.
So you know, if we help them, then imagine all
of the questions. So we started like wonder four. But
you can talk about these things with your family from
(28:53):
before you're with your newborn, and it goes through you
know what is our private parts using the correct anatomical names.
And also you know, when we're doing things with our kids,
especially little ones, we can talk them through what we're
doing because safe adults don't just do things, they explain it.
Safe adults say hey, I'm just going to change and nappy.
I'm just putting this cream on. I'm about to like
(29:14):
would you like help today or would you like to
do it yourself?
Speaker 3 (29:17):
You're giving them an option.
Speaker 5 (29:18):
That's what safe adults do. Unsafe adults don't.
Speaker 1 (29:21):
Very true think about that, like whenever we anything like
with the kids, like for example, I Macy gets a
lot of XMA right in certain spots. It's like, hey,
I was going to put this cream on.
Speaker 3 (29:30):
Yeah, okay, and explain it to it yeah.
Speaker 1 (29:33):
And then be like does it feel better when I
put the cream on? Or you know, even just that
and she'll be like yeah, yeah, because I mean, she
trusts us, right, so.
Speaker 3 (29:39):
And she needs to understand what's happening to her body.
Speaker 5 (29:41):
It's her body, absolutely, And so the thing is is
unsafe people people who groom kids and who abuse kids.
They don't actually tell them what they're doing. They create
a game, like they make it into a game if
they're little, they game a fire abuse so that the
children are confused and don't understand what's happening.
Speaker 3 (29:57):
And I've got.
Speaker 5 (29:57):
Cards that help with like what is a se secret
and what is the surprise?
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (30:02):
Do you have this question in your family?
Speaker 4 (30:03):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Because if I was to surprise their mom with something, yeah,
like hey, I got your mom this, don't tell her yet,
we'll all turn together. Oscar straight up is an arc.
Speaker 3 (30:15):
He can't help He can't help it trying to keep secrets. Yeah, beautiful,
I surprise.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
This is a surprise, And say, adults don't ask kids
to keep secrets, so they can ask them to keep surprises.
Surprises are there's a time limit, there's no body safety
rules being broken.
Speaker 3 (30:32):
And then also you can tell someone if you need to.
Speaker 5 (30:35):
So surprises are like birthday surprises, Christmas surprises, things like that.
Because it's got to set time limit and you can
tell someone eventually. Secrets are things like someone doing something
inappropriately to your body, someone who tells you not to
tell your mom. And I'm sorry for any grandparents listening,
but grandparents please stop telling you kids. Don't tell mom
and dad because you.
Speaker 4 (30:57):
Have a chocolate, but don't tell mommy because you'll get.
Speaker 5 (31:01):
You're the adult a few you're the adult. So here's
what I want to say. And I know that this
is like for some people they're like, oh, but that's
what groomers do. And so the thing is is you're
an adult. Be an adult and take responsibility if you
give her chocolate, and you have.
Speaker 3 (31:13):
To own that.
Speaker 5 (31:14):
My daughter used to go to her Nan, who used
to say, don't tell your mom you're getting a hot
chocolate at Dome, or don't tell you mom you're getting
a squash frog or whatever it was, Oh god, and.
Speaker 3 (31:25):
Don't tell mom.
Speaker 5 (31:26):
And she'd go, I'm telling mom when I get home,
and she and you know, like she would be straight up.
Nan gave me a squash frog, and you know, I
had to have conversation with her and say, listen, you're
the adult.
Speaker 3 (31:36):
Be the adult.
Speaker 5 (31:37):
If you're going to give hers something, you know that
I don't want her to have, then you need to
own up.
Speaker 3 (31:41):
For it and take the consequences whatever.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
That be very true.
Speaker 5 (31:45):
Yeah, yeah, And that's because it's so black and white
for me, and I've got heaps and heaps of blogs
on this.
Speaker 3 (31:52):
Safe people don't ask kids to keep secrets.
Speaker 4 (31:54):
It's so easy.
Speaker 1 (31:55):
It's so easy. Like, for example, like yesterday Macie was
like my younger she's four, and she were all in
the house before my wife was taking my elders to school,
and she's like, mom, we came, I have some tiny
teddies And it was like, no, it's the morning or whatever.
And then I'm they left and rushing around the house
and and Macey was like to me, can I have
some tiny tears? I'm like, yeah, okay, And I nearly went,
(32:17):
don't tell your mom, like just as a react a reaction.
Speaker 3 (32:21):
I'm going to give your high five for that, thank.
Speaker 1 (32:22):
You, thank you, And I was like and I was like,
I didn't say it because I was like, well, that's
a secret. And it was like, well, you know, if
she wants to tell mom, it's fine, I'll tell mom now.
Speaker 5 (32:32):
But like it's so easy, by the way I gave
it tiny teddy.
Speaker 1 (32:35):
But so easy to just slip that in there that like,
don't tell them, even when you're like, hey, don't tell them,
I gave you this. You think they might think it's
really cute and whatever, But unfortunately it all unsaved people
do it.
Speaker 3 (32:45):
The unsafe people do it.
Speaker 5 (32:46):
And it also teaches kids to keep secrets from family.
Like the one of the body safety rules is, we
don't keep secrets. You know, it's a it's a body,
it's a family rule. We don't keep secrets in our
family because secrets can lead to you know, it can
be dangerous, so you know, and I want parents to
know that some things we don't talk to our kids about. No,
(33:06):
And I never spoke about abuse to my daughter. I
never used the language abuse until she got older. And
you asked about when do you start talking about it, well,
with regards to body safety and having these questions and
you know, using private and public, in secret, surprise and
inappropriate appropriate. Eventually then I could talk to her about
private and public pictures and videos.
Speaker 3 (33:26):
And then so I.
Speaker 5 (33:27):
Never really talked to her about pornography. I just said,
if you ever see anyone with no clothes on on
your device, you need to come and tell me, because
that's not for kids. It was like simple and she
was like ah okay, like it was never you know,
like she never got in trouble for it.
Speaker 3 (33:42):
That's the other thing.
Speaker 5 (33:43):
We have to learn how to react better, because children
test us with the little stuff before they trust us
with the big stuff. And if we react to every
little thing, they're not going to trust us with the
big things.
Speaker 2 (33:53):
Well said, Actually, I think this conversation with kids. Cards
are so great. And there's not just one set. How
many is there?
Speaker 4 (34:00):
Yeah, so's them.
Speaker 5 (34:01):
It's wonder four, five to eight, and nine to twelve,
and then nine to twelve goes into more like the
private and public pictures, and yeah, have a look. What
do we do and say if someone says don't tell
mummy and daddy, we say, we don't keep secrets. See
the reason why these are all around my experience with
what people do to groom kids, you know, groomers and
(34:21):
people who harm kids. They will test kids to see
if they will hold secrets, with whether they'll keep secrets,
So they will test them with little things. They will
give them treats, they will give them special treatment. They
will do things like touch them inappropriately or run their
hand on them and see if they will say something
to a parent, and that's how they know whether that
child is actually they can go to the next phase
(34:42):
of the grooming and abuse or if they stop. And
if your child speaks up and says, stop it, I
don't like it. And my daughter used to say that
to her grandparents when they tickled her.
Speaker 3 (34:51):
She'd be like, stop it, I don't like it.
Speaker 5 (34:52):
And I had to have a conversation with her grandfather
because he kept tickling and I was like, hey, she
said stop. Like that's the other things adults safe, adults.
Speaker 3 (35:01):
We should be.
Speaker 5 (35:02):
Respecting no and showing them that adults and everyone should
respect your consent and your boundaries. If you say no,
and you know, like sometimes we rough house with our
kids and we're playing rough and like they go no, no, no, no.
Speaker 3 (35:14):
You go, hey, is that a real no?
Speaker 5 (35:15):
Or is that a like play no? And just stop
for a check check in good, Okay, We'll keep going.
You make sure you tell me a few maybe have
a like a code word or something like that. But
my daughter used to say, stop it, I don't like it.
I had to have a conversation because you know, people
were going past that, but when she got to a
certain note, she said, stop it.
Speaker 3 (35:34):
I don't give consent. And then she was about ten, And.
Speaker 5 (35:38):
So if your ten year old goes, stop it, I
don't give consent for you to do that.
Speaker 3 (35:41):
I don't want you to hug me.
Speaker 5 (35:43):
Do you think anyone's going to go near your kid?
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Yeah? Yeah, that gets super serious really because Macy's a
shocker for that, Like she's my kids are so ticklings,
like you can literally touch with it. Yeah, She'll be
like stop, starts and I'll stop, and then she'll go
do it. I didn't mean stop to get water, And
I was like, well, which.
Speaker 4 (36:00):
One is it?
Speaker 3 (36:01):
Yeah, maybe a code word would be good.
Speaker 5 (36:03):
But you know, like the thing is is that if
you check in and they're cool for you to keep going,
then you know. The thing is games should always be
fun for everyone. And one of the things that I
talk about is that when games go because again, games
can be turned into inappropriate things that it breaks body
safety rules. Not everyone gets to choose to play the game,
(36:23):
as in not everyone has a choice whether they want
to keep going or when things happen. So the cards
help you have those conversations and start those conversations and
just I mean there's no scripts with it yet, but
you know, they just help you sit down. I don't
recommend sitting across a table like this and having a
conversation with your kids. I actually recommend, and it's in
(36:44):
the guidebook that you know, you find a space where
you're sitting side by side. Kids don't want to be
looked at when we're talking about this stuff. And I
used everyday moments sometimes, like when we're having a shower,
or when we're you know, like she's getting changed. I
would use moment it's in the car talking to each other,
all of those things. In fact, my daughter at eight,
she came to me and said, I don't want to
(37:06):
ever have sex. And I was like, whoa. We hadn't
had that full conversation. She knew like nude people, mums
and dads, but she'd never like I'd never sat down
and like explained sex.
Speaker 3 (37:18):
To her at all.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
She goes, I don't ever want to have sex, and I.
Speaker 3 (37:21):
Was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa whoa?
Speaker 5 (37:23):
First of all, what do you know about sex? And
she's like, oh, and that's a good question. So if
your kids ever come to you and say what's this?
You say, oh, what do you know about it? Because
they've heard it somewhere, right, and you want to know
where they've heard it from or where they've seen it.
And I was like, okay, so what do you know
about sex? Oh no, it's too gross, I'm not talking
about it. And she did that for two or three
days before I managed to get her in the car
(37:44):
side by side. She couldn't escape. And that is the
thing that is the key to hard topics with and
usually you have to time it perfectly with just one
child if you can, because that and I know the
lot of parenting experts say that you want to be
one on one with those kids because you need give
them one hundred percent attention and grassed and embarrassment. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:04):
Yeah, So she was one on one with me.
Speaker 5 (38:06):
She was actually on her way to ballet in a
two two and her pink little leotard eight years old going,
I'm never having sex. And I was like, Okay, I
know that you've said this a couple of times now,
and you haven't told me what you know about it yet,
but I'm assuming I'm just and correct me if I'm wrong.
But I'm assuming that someone at school has told you
about sex, sex, and they've given you some information, But
(38:28):
how do you know that it's actually correct? I said,
so if you tell me what you know, then I
can tell you if it's true or not. And she
sat there for a bit and she goes, okay, and
she said, it's when a man puts his penis in
a woman's vagina and stuff comes out the end of it,
and a baby's made like really blurted it out as
fast as possible.
Speaker 3 (38:48):
And I was like driving my little two door high on.
I gets on.
Speaker 5 (38:52):
The freeway at one hundred kilometers and now to ballet,
and she's gone, is it true?
Speaker 3 (38:57):
And I how old?
Speaker 4 (38:58):
Was she?
Speaker 1 (38:59):
Eight?
Speaker 6 (39:00):
Wow?
Speaker 5 (39:00):
And so this was a kid at school has told.
Speaker 2 (39:02):
Her all of this right, older siblings.
Speaker 5 (39:05):
Well, she'd read a book the girl who actually told her,
and it was it was an older girl. She was
a year older, but she was held down a year.
So she's gone around and told all the kids in
year three about this, and she'd read it in a
book because she was quite smart.
Speaker 3 (39:18):
But anyway, so she said to me, and is it true?
Speaker 5 (39:21):
And I've sat there and I like driving my car
and I'm thinking in my mind in that moment. I
just had this moment of like, if I don't tell
her the truth, she's never going to trust me. And
I need to make her realize that it's okay to
talk about this. And we've talked about other stuff like
body safety stuff, and so I said, yes, it's true,
kind of yes it's.
Speaker 1 (39:40):
True, admitting it. Yeah, yes, yes.
Speaker 3 (39:44):
It's true, like believe it or not.
Speaker 5 (39:46):
I'm really good at talking to kids, but talking to
your own kid hard. It's like you're freaking out and
I'm not. I feel for parents. That's why I keep
talking to parents and saying it's okay if you stuff
this up, because it's no there's there's no guidebook to this.
But I was like, yes, yes it's true, and she's gone, Ah,
that's so gross.
Speaker 2 (40:08):
I always thought as a parent the situations that I
will be most fearful of sleepovers and also sporting events.
You know, coaches have a level of access to your
children that is far greater than what most people do.
Speaker 4 (40:24):
So I always thought.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
I would be more aware of trying to identify someone
who may be a bit suspect. But is there anything
that I can do to really arm myself to make
sure that those situations are as safe as can be
for my children.
Speaker 5 (40:39):
Yeah. So there was research in twenty nineteen with child
sex offenders. They asked the question, what stopped you from
offending or what stopped you you did all the grooming
or you tried to groom a child, what stopped you
from actually facilitating the offense? And the answer was the
non compliance of the child eighty four percent of the time,
So the child put up a resistance or the child
(40:59):
when told a parent. So that tells me that although
it's not a child's job to keep themselves safe, it's
not it's not their job, it's our job as parents
and adults. But that tells me that a child who
is confident, empowered, who knows their body safety right, so
who knows when it's not okay and appropriate for something
like someone acting inappropriately and they say something, then that's
(41:21):
going to put them off and they're going to move
on to the next child. And I know that from
speaking to children. The other thing was sixteen percent was
a protective parent. So us as parents stepping in and
saying this is appropriate or inappropriate, or for instance, when
my daughter was doing sport, I would be like, okay,
this is appropriate behavior. They're not allowed to and your
child isn't at that age yet. But I don't think
(41:43):
it's appropriate for coaches to be on Snapchat or messenger
with kids, right. It should be direct contact with parents.
And the people we look out for are the ones
who are always offering to bring everyone home, trying to
get alone with kids, right, maybe pushing boundary. And the
thing about grooming is is that they don't just groom children.
(42:03):
They groom adults as well, and predators or people who
want to harm kids. They look for kids who have
you know, maybe they don't have both parents that live
in the same home anymore, or maybe they've got illness
in the family and their parents are struggling, so they're
looking for targets that are a bit more vulnerable than
the average child, you know. So the more protective we act,
the more that we are around for our kids during sports.
(42:26):
And one of the things I did as a coach,
and this kind of is the God's standard in my mind.
I taught my daughter's netball team for about five years
and I used to have all of the parents on
messenger and every bit of you know, this is when
training is, this is when our game is. All of
stuff was to parents, and then they got to a
certain age and everyone was like, can you just talk
to the kids, And I said, no, you can add
your kids into the group chat, but you have to
(42:48):
be in there with them otherwise I'm not going to
be conversing with them. And that's me putting in a
boundary to be a safe adult. That's me saying, you
need to pick your kids up, or you need to
let me know who is picking them up. If you
require me to take your child home, if you ask me,
and I was happy to do it. Sometimes my daughter
was always in the car. It was never one on one.
Speaker 3 (43:08):
I mean, look, I.
Speaker 5 (43:09):
Consider myself as safe adult, but ten to twelve percent
of child sex offenders could be female. If I was
trying to abuse a child. It's a great opportunity to
try and abuse a child getting them one on one,
being that person that they mentors, kids that kids look
up to. So yeah, so it's more about the safe
adults around them that put in boundaries and keep safe spaces.
(43:29):
You know, they're open to criticism, they're open to being
you know, if you've got concerns. One of the things
that really annoys me is when parents say to me, oh,
you know, I've spoken to my school and they've just
like basically not listened or they've not spoken to me.
You know, it's it takes little to make.
Speaker 3 (43:45):
Parents feel safe.
Speaker 5 (43:46):
If they're more than willing to listen to your concerns,
then you're going to feel like they're a safe person, right. So,
and same with early childhood education and stuff like that.
So sleepovers is another one for me. Sleepovers is one
of the biggest risks for childhood sexual abuse. And it
doesn't matter if it's a friend or if it's a relative,
it can be a really big problem. Not only that
(44:07):
is it could be an adult or it could be
a child, because up to fifty percent of child sexual
abuse in Australia is by other children. So wow, and
what we call that is harmful sexualized behavior. So whether
it be by an adult in that home or another
child in that home, it could be the friend that
they're staying with, it could be whatever.
Speaker 3 (44:23):
A lot of kids don't realize that kids just being kids.
Speaker 5 (44:26):
Or the exploratory behavior is actually harmful and so it
requires us to step in as protective.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Adults for my children. Are there any signs that I
can look out for from them that something may or
may have happened.
Speaker 5 (44:38):
Yeah, well you know your kid's best right, like you
know them inside out hopefully, And so if their behavior,
behavior is a form of language. Our kids tell us
through behavior. Sometimes they don't even have the words, but
they'll tell us through how they behave. So if they
have a complete change in behavior from being you know,
the happy, go lucky kid to the really angry, violent child,
(44:59):
you know that's something to be It might not mean
that there've been abused, but something's going on in their world.
They could be getting bullied at school or somewhere right.
The next thing is is that if they are talking
about or doing something that is outside of their experience.
So with harmful sexualized behaviors, for instance, if when a
child harms another child, or a child's been sexually abused,
they might show sexualized behaviors that they shouldn't know. You know,
(45:21):
young children, it's normal for them to you know, joke
around about farts and bums and private parts, but it's
not normal for them to ask them to put something
in private parts or do things that's not normal behavior
that's showing signs of they're doing something more than their
age and stage development. So you know, if your child's
showing sexualized behaviors above and beyond what they should be normal.
(45:43):
And also if they start refusing to go somewhere or
they don't want to go with a person, something's happening.
Speaker 3 (45:49):
It might not mean abuse.
Speaker 5 (45:50):
It could mean that that person doesn't feel safe anymore
or they're not feeling secure in that relationship anymore, but
it could mean that something's happened. So those are some
of the warning signs that I would watch out for.
Speaker 1 (46:01):
And if I am picking up on some of those,
what's the best way to open that dialogue?
Speaker 5 (46:06):
Yeah, so some of the ways that I would say
to kids. And He's the thing, right, a lot of
us didn't grow up having these conversations with our parents, No,
not at all, you know, So a lot of us
don't know how to have these conversations because no one
ever did it with us.
Speaker 3 (46:18):
So one of the ways that.
Speaker 5 (46:19):
I really and kids really respond well when we say,
you know what, but no one ever talked to me
about this, And you know, I'm still learning, and I
realized that I haven't actually asked you if you know,
does everyone in the house make you feel safe? Does
anyone ever make you feel unsafe? So you can start
it like that. I always started conversations with taking some
responsibility for not having the words or the knowledge, like
(46:41):
you know, hey, I'm learning this, Like tell me, is
there anything that I need to know right now that's
making you feel unsafe? For is anyone in our It
doesn't matter who it is or I just want you
to know that nothing you ever do can ever make
me stop loving you.
Speaker 3 (46:56):
Nothing that ever.
Speaker 5 (46:56):
Happens in your day or in your life will ever
make me stop loving you. Because the thing that really
got me when I was interviewing kids is that most
of them took on the responsibility and the accountability of
that abuse on themselves. They thought they were to blame,
and they were the ones who blamed themselves. I was naughty,
I did the wrong thing, because that's what abuses do
to kids. They put the responsibility on the child, and
(47:19):
the child takes on that responsibility as a parent.
Speaker 3 (47:22):
We just need to go.
Speaker 5 (47:23):
Nothing you can ever do will ever make me stop
loving you. And if you ever need to talk to
me about anything, I will always be here to listen
to you. My job is to love and protect you,
and sometimes we do things that we might think that
we're responsible for. But you're the child and I'm the adult,
and it's my responsibility.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
I'd love to get your take on this situation which
happened to me a couple of weeks ago. We were
at the RSL having dinner and as I was at
the bar about to order a drink, my daughter came
up to me and an older man who I think
it had a couple and he that balance. He was
a bit of a cheeriold guy, but he was patting
my daughter's head and say, oh, you're such a pretty girl.
(48:03):
And you know, it happened quite quickly where you know,
next thing, I had my drink and I was out
of there. And afterwards I was thinking, do I just
walk away from that? You know, he could just be
a nice old guy.
Speaker 3 (48:14):
It's a bit creepy, though, or do I.
Speaker 2 (48:16):
In that moment confront and make a scene in front
of my daughter to make her know that it wasn't aware.
How would you react in that situation.
Speaker 3 (48:23):
I'm a bit cheeky.
Speaker 5 (48:24):
I would have rubbed his head and said, oh, aren't
you a cute old man? Because you know, like I
don't think some people actually even think about what they do.
It's not appropriate to touch other people without their consent,
you know. And I think there's a generation still around
that hasn't really thought about these things, and they don't
actually consider people's wants, needs, or you know, their bodily autonomy.
Speaker 1 (48:47):
I think, I know you're talking about.
Speaker 5 (48:50):
Look, look, that's just how they were brought up and
that's what they think. And you know, there's a sense
of sometimes there's a sense of entitlement. Not all some
of the grandparents that I speak to and the older generation,
so like we just didn't no one talked about this.
You know. I've had eighty year old women come and
disclose their abuse to me that you know. I wrote
my book Operation Kids Safe, and in there there's a
(49:10):
whole topic of consent, right, and how we just really
don't look into it and we don't think about consent.
And my grandmother came to me and she goes, you know,
I realized that most of my relationships in my life
were not consensual. All of my Yeah, she goes, I
never had a choice. And when you put it like that,
it's really impactful, Like she goes, I just didn't realize
(49:31):
because I just thought I had to.
Speaker 2 (49:33):
Yeah, Well, the work that you're doing is so important. Yeah,
I think it's really amazing. And I can't wait to
go home with these cards and make my daughters as
strong as can be.
Speaker 3 (49:44):
That's my That makes my heart happy.
Speaker 1 (49:46):
Yeah, we get we get to interview a lot of
people on here, and I think able to pick your
brain on this stuff has been amazing. I mean, Matt
and I are in the prime of young kids, and.
Speaker 3 (49:56):
You're at the best point of parenting.
Speaker 5 (49:58):
Like your children have will have the lessons that will
make a difference for them and their future because these
lessons I taught my daughter from two and when she
was in year eleven, she came home one day and
she said she had a group of five to six
girls in her group and she was the only one
who hadn't been sexually abused. Wow, And I said, how
did you get onto this conversation? They were like, oh,
they found out what you do, and like they all
(50:20):
were disclosing abuse to me and so so yeah, and
I was like wow, and she goes, I was the
only one who hadn't been sexually abused.
Speaker 2 (50:27):
As horrific as that is, it must make you so
proud of the work that you had done with your daughter.
Speaker 5 (50:33):
It does, and it makes me and everything that I
teach and everything that I share online is you know,
and I do get criticized from parents who are like, no,
it's not that bad and it doesn't happen. I think
we don't want to look at the world that way,
and I don't look at the world that way. I
know that there's a lot of good people out there,
and a lot of good parents and a lot of
good kids and stuff like that, but we don't know
(50:53):
what we don't know, and if we don't know, then
we're just opening the door to more happening that we
didn't bargain for. It's better to know and to put
things in place, like have those conversations. If there was
one thing that I could say, is that just have
a conversation with your kids about body safety. Because in
all of my career, the kids who had this information
(51:13):
spoke up. Quicker, got to safety, quicker, got healing, quicker.
The ones who didn't didn't have that and they and
you know, went on to affect their whole lives. So
for me, it's just a no brainer.
Speaker 2 (51:24):
It's amazing work. Christy or a combat wand bat, Thank
you so much, Thank you so much, Thank you Ash.
There is so much important information in this episode, Matt.
Speaker 1 (51:34):
I wasn't sure what to expect through that episode, but
the amount of information and the little tidbits that I've
learned along the way made that such an incredible episode.
Speaker 2 (51:43):
You know so many important take homes, so I hope
you as a listener benefited from it. If you have
enjoyed this episode, please we would love it as always
if you would leave a review, either an upper podcast Hey,
even Spotify if you like. You can't leave reviews for
the whole series. You have to do specific comments for
the episode on Spotify, just so you know every.
Speaker 1 (52:01):
Episode, or you can join us on YouTube where you
can leave more comments, Instagram, TikTok, and our Facebook group
Two Doting Dads, or send us an email if you
want hello at two Doting Dance dot com.
Speaker 6 (52:12):
Thanks guys, bye.
Speaker 2 (52:26):
Two Doting Dads podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
throughout Australia and the connections to land, see and community.
Speaker 1 (52:34):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight islander
peoples today. This episode was recorded on Gadagal Land.
Popular Podcasts
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
Hey Jonas!
Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
Betrayal Weekly
Betrayal Weekly is back for a new season. Every Thursday, Betrayal Weekly shares first-hand accounts of broken trust, shocking deceptions, and the trail of destruction they leave behind. Hosted by Andrea Gunning, this weekly ongoing series digs into real-life stories of betrayal and the aftermath. From stories of double lives to dark discoveries, these are cautionary tales and accounts of resilience against all odds. From the producers of the critically acclaimed Betrayal series, Betrayal Weekly drops new episodes every Thursday. If you would like to share your story, you can reach out to the Betrayal Team by emailing them at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod and @glasspodcasts. Please join our Substack for additional exclusive content, curated book recommendations, and community discussions. Sign up FREE by clicking this link Beyond Betrayal Substack. Join our community dedicated to truth, resilience, and healing. Your voice matters! Be a part of our Betrayal journey on Substack.