#234 The Silent Struggle Of Dads with Dr Zac

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Matt.

Speaker 2 (00:16):
It is Men's Health Week and we are stoked to
work with November, bringing doctor Zach Seidler, their global director
of Research at November on the pod.

Speaker 3 (00:26):
Look, they've just released a really amazing report. It's called
More Than a Provider, and we're going to put the
link in the show notes, so if you want to
have a read of the report, you can get access
to it. The stats aren't going to surprise you, but
I think it's really important to acknowledge some of the
figures like one in four fathers rated their mental health
as poor in the first year of fatherhood and one
in five reported feelings isolated or lonely.

Speaker 2 (00:47):
These topics have been coming up a lot on the pod,
and it's great to have an expert to talk about
these things.

Speaker 1 (00:52):
And we all know that men aren't.

Speaker 2 (00:54):
The best at talking about their feelings. We think that
we're good at it, like we're good at everything else,
but unfortunately it is not the case.

Speaker 3 (01:03):
You know, we're lucky ash in that we have this podcast,
which we've said before it's our therapy each week, but
there are so many dads out there that aren't is
fortunate to have these conversations all the time.

Speaker 2 (01:15):
I think it goes without saying Matt that being a
dad is amazing, of course, but it's not all rainbows
and butterflies.

Speaker 1 (01:21):
There's a lot that goes into it.

Speaker 2 (01:23):
And for me, I've struggled throughout my fatherhood journey and
it's great to have someone on that we can pick
his brain and see if he can help some of
the other dads out there.

Speaker 3 (01:31):
Just the heads up that within this episode we are
going to be talking about mental health, so we will
talk about topics of depression and self harm, but I
really want to stress that we also talk about some
really awesome tools to help yourself or your partner if
they are experiencing this kind of struggle.

Speaker 1 (01:46):
We'll leave all the details in the show notes, so
please enjoy the episode.

Speaker 3 (01:49):
Let's get into it. Welcome back to three doting dads.
I'm Maddie, Jay, I'm Ash, and I'm doctor Zach Doctor.

Speaker 2 (01:56):
He's got a trump us with that a such a
flex took nine years, man, I'm a pilot.

Speaker 3 (02:02):
And this is a podcast all about parenting.

Speaker 1 (02:04):
It is the good, it is the bad and the relatable.

Speaker 3 (02:07):
And Zach, were do we have have we had a
doctor on? This may be our first doctor is Jenna doctor.

Speaker 1 (02:13):
She should be a doctor.

Speaker 4 (02:15):
We're really maturing the podcast here.

Speaker 1 (02:17):
This at level.

Speaker 3 (02:19):
We did say at one point as a blanket rule,
we will never ever give advice, and even the listeners
were like, we don't want advice either, And then the
moment we gave to someone who could offer advice, they were.

Speaker 1 (02:31):
Like, give us more or more of that ship.

Speaker 3 (02:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, so you'll be delivering the ship today.

Speaker 4 (02:35):
Hell yeah, hell yeah.

Speaker 1 (02:37):
Where you're allowed to, we're not allowed to.

Speaker 2 (02:39):
We always like any advice that we do accidentally give,
we've got to retract very quickly.

Speaker 4 (02:43):
But you you'll just jump on though and add to it,
so that'll be good.

Speaker 1 (02:46):
Absolutely.

Speaker 3 (02:47):
Can I just check do you prefer doctor?

Speaker 1 (02:49):
No?

Speaker 4 (02:50):
No, no, no no, because I get into like doctor field
territory and that's terrifying.

Speaker 1 (02:54):
Obviously your driver's license is doctor and stuff, right.

Speaker 4 (02:56):
I like, when you get on a plane. This was
the reason I did a piece. I'm not a medical doctor.
I'm a clinical psychologist. Let's be clear on that. When
I got on a plane the first time I got
my PhD, they go welcome doctor, just so you know
you're second in line for an emergency. And I'm like,
let's kill him. There there was a pediatric surgeon in business.

Speaker 1 (03:18):
So the child is injured.

Speaker 4 (03:20):
Yeah, yeah, but I said, the vast majority of emergencies
are panic attacks, so I'm actually good to go that
in pregnancy. I've got both of those out.

Speaker 2 (03:27):
Your second, yeah, don't push, it will drop you. The
third we have a doctor, doctor Dres in the band.
We start these podcasts off with finding a little bit
about the man. Okay, we want to understand what's the
most trouble that.

Speaker 1 (03:41):
You got in as a child.

Speaker 4 (03:42):
Oh god, it's very telling to share this story because
it's like, I think I've come to the point where
my impulse control has matured, you know, I hope, But
as it like twelve thirteen year old, we lived above
a pretty main road, and we had a great ice
maker in our freezer, and we decided one summer day

(04:06):
that first we like me and my mates, were gonna
throw ice at each other because that's just a normal
thing to do. Yeah, of course, and then we were like, oh,
how strong is our arm? How far can we throw this?
And so they're they're chunky pieces, and we just launched
onto the main road and I cracked someone's wings and
I hid in the shower.

Speaker 1 (04:27):
With the hot water.

Speaker 4 (04:28):
Yeah, ironically, we were all hiding in the shower and
they're like pressing the buzzer like you well, it's also
because like it's a sunny day, it's hailing on me.
This is great, you know, but it's funny because it
is like folklore with my mates, like we talk about
the ice, you know, till the ice moments of yeah,
it was it was wild, it was wild?

Speaker 1 (04:47):
Was there a punishment?

Speaker 4 (04:48):
My mom didn't find out? I don't think so. She's
listening now because we just we hid until they went
away and then they seemingly didn't come back.

Speaker 3 (04:56):
You've been disappointed, wouldn't you.

Speaker 4 (04:58):
Yeah, as a p that's not that's not good because
I messaged my mom last night being like what did
I What did I do? Like you got anything? She's
like you were perfect. I'm like lies, endless lies. But
you know, we'll take it now.

Speaker 1 (05:12):
She knows if she's asening this was it a good throw?
Like oh yeah boy?

Speaker 3 (05:20):
We also like we don't condone any level of ice
throwing in public. All I kind of want to get
some ice and throw.

Speaker 1 (05:27):
Let's do it.

Speaker 3 (05:27):
We'll pause.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
This were really well, I thought, we're really closed, like
the Harbor Bridge. We could launch it off the overpass
there all the time.

Speaker 4 (05:33):
I know, water bombs like the kids like still do that?

Speaker 1 (05:36):
Yeah? Full of p though, Oh jesus your kids. I'm
not giving anyone else.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
I do beaches.

Speaker 1 (05:42):
Oh having a piss fighter standard.

Speaker 3 (05:45):
No, they are, They're very much there.

Speaker 4 (05:47):
That's pg.

Speaker 3 (05:48):
That's good.

Speaker 2 (05:49):
They've got the ones things now that fills up like
a hundred at once.

Speaker 3 (05:51):
Wow, the future.

Speaker 4 (05:53):
That takes away the effort.

Speaker 1 (05:54):
That was fun.

Speaker 3 (05:55):
We're not here talk about water bombs. Zach. You have
recently become a new dad five months ago. I want
to say congratulations, thank you. I think we spoke on Instagram.

Speaker 1 (06:05):
Just before before.

Speaker 3 (06:08):
Did I give you some any words of advice?

Speaker 1 (06:10):
But I hope not, because you're not meant to.

Speaker 4 (06:11):
Hold Yeah, hold on, hold on?

Speaker 1 (06:13):
Man's good?

Speaker 3 (06:15):
How things going? Are you still holding on?

Speaker 4 (06:17):
I'm holding on. My boy is like the cutest thing ever,
so like, regardless of the night of the day, just
attachment is made easy when you look. He actually doesn't
look anything like me, doesn't have to. He's got blue eyes.

Speaker 1 (06:31):
Like it's trippy. How old now? Five months? Wow?

Speaker 4 (06:35):
Five months and ten kilos man, he is no one
of you looks so clean and so happy, and it's great.

Speaker 1 (06:43):
I'm loving it.

Speaker 4 (06:43):
Like I've done so much theorizing on fatherhood and now
it's it was time to get into the trenches, and
I was pumped.

Speaker 3 (06:51):
Is it what you expected? Obviously, like researching the topic
versus being in the trenches and experiencing it can be
two separate things. How did you find the two?

Speaker 4 (07:00):
Well, having listened to a lot of you guys and
trying to like grapple with the messiness of all of this,
my expectations were really loose, and I think that that
was the key. I've watched lots of my friends crumble
because they had this belief of what fatherhood would be,
and my clients as well. They were like, I'd read
this book or I'd been told that this was what
it was supposed to look like, and my child is

(07:21):
different wise, and is there something wrong with me? You know,
the whole idea around father's finding purpose and connection with
their kid, and it takes time, and it's like, why
has this not happened? I just went in being like
I'm going to do anything that I can to like
connect with my instincts here because I believe that they
are going to lead me down the right path and

(07:41):
he will tell me what he needs. Like I've done
enough developmental psych to go. I think I get the
basics of child rearing and the specifics are going to
come with finding out what he wants, who he is,
what he needs.

Speaker 2 (07:56):
Yeah, the experience becomes like you're a big part of
the learning, especially when you go like I mean going
from one to two, Matt's gone to three. You've sort
of subconsciously learned these things that you don't actually think
about them when the second one you're just doing it,
you know, so you're's a.

Speaker 4 (08:10):
Pre baby post baby, Like that's just how it is.
And I just don't think that there's any use in
trying to envisage what your life is going to look
like necessarily, because then you don't reach those expectations, you
failed somehow everything blows up. Rather, I just tried to go,
I'm open to all experiences as they come, and this
is going to be heaps of fun more than anything.

(08:32):
And I think something that really pisss me off around
the chat around fatherhood more broadly and actually parenting is
like everything is super negative at the moment there's just
this pendulum swing that had just moved into like the
everything is death and destruction and hard. There is a
lot of trauma and really important stuff that needed to
be aired that wasn't previously. But I think we're at

(08:54):
a point now where if I go my kids sleeping
for like ten hours, someone goes, oh, you, Like, why do.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
You have to say that?

Speaker 4 (09:02):
Why is this idea of it'll get bad? How does
that benefit me?

Speaker 3 (09:07):
Just wait? The teenager?

Speaker 1 (09:08):
I think it never end.

Speaker 2 (09:09):
I think people subconsciously want to prepare you for what
could potentially happen. Right, Yeah, but again, everyone's different, Every
child is different, every baby is different.

Speaker 1 (09:18):
I mean, we are sold.

Speaker 2 (09:19):
This magical thing, which it is, and you go through
nine months of waiting, and then the expectation can be
sometimes like a bit lonely. After the everyone's sort of
looking at mum making sure mum's as they should because
she's just gone through this amazing childbirth and whichever way
that sort of comes about. But then it's sort of like, Okay,

(09:41):
I want to make sure everyone's okay. But then sometimes
you can feel a bit lonely.

Speaker 4 (09:45):
Yeah, do you find that with for sure? I've seen
that in clients. I felt it myself, and so what
I decided was, I'm going to find my role here
really quickly, and I'm going to no matter how big
or small it is, depending on the day, I'm going
to own this. And so, you know, it was cooking
at the start, and I was like, I'm gonna smash this.
I'm going to get this downpat and it doesn't matter

(10:08):
that it's not parenting as it was conceptualized and sold
to me, because you know, he just needed boob at
the start and sleep pretty much. And so again the
expectation around who I need to be and how I
need to show up. I just try to loosen the
pressure on some of that stuff. And I do think
that that period is so prone to loneliness because there

(10:32):
has been such a massive shift in your value. I
think in some ways you've gone from two to three
or three to four to five, and you're trying to
find out where your identity fits in this new structure
and doing really small things that are probably very important
for the unit. Suddenly don't feel that useful or don't
feel like you're doing what you should, and you have

(10:53):
this constant sense of failure and you isolate from yourself,
I think in some ways as well. And I just
watched that kind of recede at that time point and
kind of shrink because they don't know how to inject
themselves into this new world. And so I think it's
just a matter of doing a massive reorientation in your
head of what value and purpose kind of look like.

Speaker 3 (11:15):
And when you talk about a new world, I think
when you compare our fathers to the current generation of fathers,
the identity of a dad has changed so much. How
do you think it has changed? And how are dad's
coping with that change?

Speaker 4 (11:31):
Yeah? I think about this a lot. And we've just
published a report out of November or More than a Provider,
which really in the name kind of says a lot
about where modern day fatherhood is, which is that back
in the day, it was provided protective breadwinner, like it
was a pretty clear structure. And I think it should
be said that, like black and white thinking is very
easy to wrap your head around. You know, mom does this,

(11:52):
Dad does this. We're now at a point where there
is a dual identity, which is something that mothers have
been dealing with for a very long time. I'm a parent,
I'm a worker, I'm a wife. I'm going to hold
all of these identities at the same time and work
out where it fits. Dads are now having to do that,
and I felt that massively in my head. I felt
the room kind of constrict and I was like, wait,

(12:15):
there's not enough time and space to do all of this.
And so what our report kind of talks about is
that there is such beauty in having to suddenly reshape
your life around being this vulnerable and nurturing caregiver, which
you didn't often receive. Especially in Australia, it's not a
common occurrence for dads to be massively soft and loving

(12:38):
from the previous generation. That shifts when they become grandparents.

Speaker 3 (12:41):
It's just a.

Speaker 1 (12:42):
Unique event, doesn't it ever.

Speaker 4 (12:45):
But trying to do that while also being in financially
tough times where you do need to provide, and you
might not be the only provider, but you've got the
pressure from society telling you, all right, you're the guy.
You need to make sure that you can keep the
family running. So I need you for more than bathtime.
I need you in the mornings because I want to
go to gym. Can you drop in at lunch and

(13:07):
check in for an hour because I need to go
and do a work call. Like it's the balancing act
that so many men in previous generations didn't have, and
that means that they're it's gone straight up, it's gone
from I think I saw some data that it's like
we are doing four times more parenting than our fathers

(13:28):
and eight times more than our grandfathers, and we're still
working as much. And so it's like, that's when you
start to see done it all they could have?

Speaker 1 (13:36):
It's a lie.

Speaker 3 (13:36):
It was a lie.

Speaker 4 (13:38):
But that's where loneliness creeps in, because it's like, how
the hell, Like all all the dads who are going
to the races and going to the footy and doing
all of this stuff because that was their role. They
didn't need to be there to do all of the
other stuff. Now suddenly all the time that you were
going to spend with mates is restricted because you're at
home and the village is way smaller as well. The

(13:58):
nuclear family has kind of taken and over, and so
our data consistently tells us that dual identity means that
the beauty of connection, the desire to value family over
you know, financial successes. There they're telling their kids. They
love them way more than previous generations. They're doing far
more caregiving, and yet they are also feeling massively under

(14:21):
the pump to have a good career, to be able to,
you know, pay off the mortgage and all of that.
So it's coexisting in ways that the women have dealt
with for a really long time. But there are no
structures and there's no conversation like this is a really
unique space where we can talk about that bind that
men find themselves in.

Speaker 3 (14:39):
I don't know if you're the same ash, but I
feel like the dads that I know, it's a pretty
broad spectrum between There are some dads that still very
much see it as a black and white shared responsibility,
and I find it hard to connect on a parenting
liver with those dads. And then there's others that are doing,
like you said in the research, that are trying to
take on work plus be a caregiver at home. To

(15:00):
the dads that are finding it hard to connect, that
are feeling that sense of loneliness, what is your advice
to them.

Speaker 4 (15:06):
I think that the connection piece is often around identity,
and the notion around transitions is often the hardest thing
for men to cope with, which is that when it
comes to men's mental health, you look at kids going
from school to university, university to the workplace, marriage, divorce, fatherhood, unemployment, retirement,

(15:29):
those types of really key pivotal moments for men are
often the hardest for their mental health because they're doing
all this thing in this idea of like linear progress
and men, we're working towards this thing, and we're going
to get to an endpoint at all will be well.
But what that brings is this massive roller coaster where
suddenly the very identity forming values that you had, the

(15:52):
idea of where you were going and who you are,
get pulled out from underneath you. And so when you
look at some of these men who are really struggling
to connect during that time, it's because they were holding
onto a past self that needs to be reincorporated. It
needs to be shifted, and you need to lose some things,
and it's very hard for lots of guys to embrace grief,

(16:14):
to be honest with you that your past self is
no longer here. The idea that you can just go
out whenever you want, get on the beer is like
I realized when I became a dad, I was like, Okay, yes,
I am carving off those previous parts of myself. But
this is where that narrative around positivity comes in. What
am I about to open? What are those doors that
I'm about to open? And we're way too focused on
what we lose rather than going Actually staring at my

(16:38):
boy for like an hour and a half is way
better than lots of other things that I used to do.

Speaker 3 (16:44):
If there's any dads out there, maybe they have that
mentality of like, you know what, I'm going to take
on work that with my priority. I'm going to make
sure that my family are financially secure and that will
be my number one responsibility. What is your argument to
that won't necessarily turn you into a good dad?

Speaker 4 (17:01):
My question is always, is that what you want to do? Like,
is that what's been sold to you? Is this something
that is just the clearest narrative that you can grab
a hold of because it is black and white. Because
so many men and you often find my dad's generation
or grandparents' generation who are very regretful of the fact
that they weren't there, that they weren't present because they

(17:21):
got offered this really clear doctrine of dads do this,
go off and you're successful because you brought in enough
money to keep food on the table. But yet you
get later in life and you go, wait a second,
I missed all of those landmark moments. So I don't
think it's a matter of going to the nth degree
and doing everything, because I'm trying to do that currently

(17:42):
and it's hurting. I've had to like shift in my
mind that I'm not the primary caregiver, you know, and
I'm working full time. It's like that you can't do
all of these things. And so it is about realizing
that day to day you're doing a bit of a dance.
But asking men who go, all right, I'm just going
to be the breadwinner, Like can you find ways to

(18:02):
make that eighty percent? And where are you going to
find that twenty percent that is going to be connection
with your children?

Speaker 2 (18:08):
Yeah, Because it's like I suppose you had mentioned before
that it was mums were doing this right, they were
having babies and then they were going back to work
and balancing that. They seem to have found a way
to do that. Is it because they were They were
sort of sold that narrative early on that that's you know,
that's just how it is. But with you guys, you
pick one or the other. I'd hate to get to

(18:28):
my fifties and feel like I've missed all the time
that I've had with my kids now And honestly, like
before having kids, I wouldn't have even thought about that,
but now I'm like, fuck yeah, Like I'd hate to
wake up one day and go I concentrated. Yes, it
was good that everyone was clothes dressed, had a roof
over their head. They are things that are attainable, but

(18:50):
also with finding a balance that we're here, like, okay,
I'm not missing things.

Speaker 3 (18:53):
Yeah, I think if you're doing that, like you said,
it's important to have food on the table, to have
a roof of your head. But if you're doing that,
the detriment of having any one on one time with
your child, Like a child doesn't give a fuck. They
just an expectation for them that they're going to be
get fed and sleep.

Speaker 4 (19:11):
And I will say that it is oft an avoidance
because you are the master of your domain at work,
and so many men tell me this when they come
in clinically. It's like I go off, I'm looking after
a team of forty. They fucking bow down to me.
And I come home and my wife is like, why
didn't you put.

Speaker 1 (19:26):
Away this plate?

Speaker 4 (19:27):
Yeah, and it's like that is a that's a massive disconnect,
and it's a it's a come down of the highest order.
And so they go, I'm just going to stay at
work because I'm respected, Yes, and that requires unpacking, man.
And that's why like even being able to have that
conversation you say, you know, before I had kids, I
didn't consider that I miss something, But yet we're now
here having this going wait a second, what would I miss?

(19:50):
What even would I miss? Because you typically get to
your fifties or sixties and go, I've done it, and
I miss those things because now I've seen them. But
mums talk about and have always talked about what they
would miss. They've talked about what the process is, what
mothering looks like. And there are plenty of mothers who
decide very clearly, in a black and white way, I'm
going to be at home and that's and that's fine.

(20:12):
It's not a very clear, you know, yes or no
type thing, but it's that dance that requires open dialogue.

Speaker 2 (20:19):
Yeah, you're right, I suppose like I wouldn't have had
a conversation about what I would potentially miss as as
a man about with my kids, like my future kids. Right,
but now I'm having the conversation. But mums would have
probably had that conversation with their friends, right.

Speaker 1 (20:35):
They would have opened up a little bit more about it.

Speaker 2 (20:36):
When I don't feel like I could have opened up
with anyone about that, you know, like now I can
because obviously we have these conversations, but like, yeah, it's.

Speaker 4 (20:44):
It's like, what type of dad do you want to be?
Like if I ask people that because I try to
do that during pregnancy, when yeah, because dads just don't
do any work during that time. I'm like, this is
your brain is shifting. Things are going to change massively.
Let's try and have some adaptive evolutionary conversation about who

(21:04):
you want to become. And you know, if I was
to ask either of you during that time with your
first kids, what type of dad do you want to be?
Lots of people would say I don't want to be
like my own dad, or they would say I want
to be fun dad. But they all they're all caricatures,
they lack depth. Rows you ask moms what type of
mum they want to be fucking hell, you're going to

(21:24):
get a real rich answer.

Speaker 1 (21:27):
Yeah, very true.

Speaker 2 (21:28):
Yeah, loving, nurturing, all these sorts of things, you know, like,
but yeah, you're right, David, I just want to be fun.
That is a character, right, You got to do these
other things that around that. You can't just be fun
all the time, or the whole house would be silly.
Sounds pretty good, but in reality it's not.

Speaker 4 (21:44):
Yeah, yeah, it's a Homosimpson effect. It's like, no one
needs a two dimensional dad. I think that there's two
types of fathers in current culture. One is like the
hero and he's put on a pedestal and he's going
to save us all. And one is the idiot, you know,
and it's like like bands that can't fall off the
pedestal because it's a fucking drawing, which says a lot honestly,

(22:06):
that like the pinnacle of Australian fatherhood is a drawing.
Like I think that we are at a point where
we really need to show that messiness, which is like
you can do the good, bad and ugly, like that's
how modern day parenting looks, and don't put them on
a pedestal. In the same way that we shouldn't be
putting footy players on a pedestal for talking about their
mental health because they'll just fall off too. It's too much.

(22:29):
No one is perfect, and I think when we're talking
about dads, it's like, here is that simplicity of like,
let's box him in rather than saying he can be
really complex and shift day to day in moment to moment.

Speaker 3 (22:42):
When you're talking about this modern day dad, the dads
that are finding that dance between work and being hands
on at home, what do you see as being one
of the biggest issues that they're facing.

Speaker 4 (22:54):
I think it's around expectation of what culture has told
them they should be doing. And so that's when you
up with massive relationship blow ups, you know, around mental
load and domestic duties because oh, I'm working and I
continue to have really open conversations with my wife about
this where I'm like, I don't have that much time.

(23:15):
I'm trying to work out what I need to do
for there not to be resentment building in the house.
But it's a matter of transparency where I'm saying, you know,
she says, you didn't see that thing, you didn't clean
that thing, and I go, I kind of need to
be attuned to that. Like I've got four different modes
in my head that I'm constantly jumping between, and I

(23:36):
just need to get better at it, honestly, Like that
requires building that muscle because and women have said this forever,
it's like he doesn't see the mess, and it's like
my eyes work, it's just priorities. It's where my attention
is placed. And that's why I think being myopic and
being so single minded about work and you know, your

(23:57):
children kind of being a distraction like that that causes
a disconnect from self because so many guys I end
up seeing in their mid forties late forties feel like
they had distracted away from this thing that they didn't
really understand, being, you know, child rearing, and now they're going,
if only I'd been present and willing to embrace that

(24:20):
challenge fundamentally, And that's you know, leveraging masculinity in therapy
is kind of my game and being like all you
do is talk about self optimization. All you're doing is
talking about leveling up and resilience building and fucking you know,
ice bars. Being a dad is the hardest thing you're
going to do. Like, let's go what is that going
to look like, how are we going to actually build

(24:42):
up that challenge week by week so that you get
better at this thing and you're actively being a member
of this rather than being afraid.

Speaker 3 (24:51):
So what's what's the silver bullet? What's the bit of
advice that you're like, focus on this and it'll make
you a better dad. What do you tell your clients?

Speaker 4 (24:57):
Why tell them to focus on themselves? I think that
that you know, so many of them are actually distancing
themselves from their own reality because they're like, I've got
to look after everyone else, or they go, no, I
can't go to gym because I need to make sure
that I'm doing this thing. And I'm like, if you
actually disconnect from yourself first, that's the greatest disservice you

(25:18):
can do to the family. Like it is so easily
represented in the fact that the vast majority of referrals
are coming to me from wives. That is not a
good assessment of current men's health.

Speaker 3 (25:30):
It's funny because I that is a story set asking
about if you were struggling with your mental health as
a dad, as a parent, why didn't you reach out
for help? And the biggest response that we got was
I thought I could manage it on my own. To
those dads out there, or if partners are listening on
behalf of their husband, how do we make more men

(25:53):
aware that their struggle is something that they can't do
by themselves.

Speaker 4 (25:57):
I think that I thought it was something I could
do on my own. Like this notion of self reliance
is put onto this top level idea of what it
means to be a man, rather than realizing that as
social beings, the greatest thing you can do is actually
have people around you that you can rely on. We
are fundamentally requiring leaning on others in order to succeed,

(26:21):
in order to thrive. And again when they say I
thought I could do it on my own and that
I could crack this, I'm like, how much suffering is
required for you and those around you before you realize
that you can't do it? Because it always ends up
in crisis. Like that's what happens. They're drinking too much,
they're not seeing their mates, they're suicidal, whatever it might be,

(26:42):
and they go, I don't want to put a burden
on my partner, and then the burden is massive later on.

Speaker 3 (26:47):
Yeah, well, even there's been so many times I'm a
pretty open book. I'm pretty emotionally aware, but there have
been so many occasions where I've not been doing great
and Lauris said, hey, are you okay, and I just go, yeah,
I'm fine. It's so confronting. I think for anyone to say, actually,
I'm not doing okay, Like, is there any type of

(27:08):
dialogue that you can give people as a tool to
open up that conversation, because I think any dad listening
to say I'm not doing okay, it's one of the
most confronting statements that they can ever say to someone else.

Speaker 1 (27:18):
For sure.

Speaker 4 (27:19):
I think that it depends what we define like okay
as because I often tell wise partners mothers to kind
of adapt the language based on what he's saying. If
he doesn't want to say I'm not okay, then it's
like really drill into the one thing that you know
he's probably willing to admit is not going according to plan,
which is like if you're saying I can feel burnoutcoming,

(27:41):
for instance, it's like, rather than these generic statements of
like you're crumbling, you're having a breakdown, which often happen
later on when sitters hit the fan. Doing that kind
of bread crumbing early on and saying I've noticed this thing,
Like changes in character are always the greatest tell you know.
That's what when someone is drinking more, when they're not

(28:02):
talking as much, when they're out, when they're working like crazy.
I think that trying to really pinpoint certain behaviors so
that it doesn't feel like an attack. It's just like,
this is the thing that I've noticed, and that is
going to be a great conversation starter because he knows
and you're not saying you've failed. You're just saying I've

(28:24):
noticed that this behavior, Like what do you think about it?
Rather than being like this isn't okay, you need to
deal with it. You need to go to therapy. Like
the amount of times I call my mates and I
can hear their wives in the background screaming out who
needs to go to therapy? But it is like the
greatest thing that men can do is take control of

(28:45):
their own shit. And that is that does not mean
somehow fixing things on your own that you don't have
the tools to fix, like believing that, oh my god,
it's Tuesday now. I've been dealing with this for three
and a half months, but today I'm going to suddenly
get the understanding of how to father and work and

(29:05):
do all of this.

Speaker 3 (29:06):
You know, we've always hated instruction manuals, haven't we.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
I know.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
I remember early days for me when we had Oscar,
our first kid, and my sister said it to me
very bluntly, and she was just like when the when
the mask come down on an aeroplane, they tell you
to fit yours first.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
And I was like, first time i'd heard that.

Speaker 2 (29:23):
I've heard a lot more since it's pretty common, but
it's stuck with me because it was like, I can't
you know, I can't do this on my own.

Speaker 1 (29:31):
I need to help me before I can help you guys.

Speaker 2 (29:34):
And April was very much of that belief too, Like
I was very thankfu. I'm very thankful that she was like, well,
you know, not like what do you mean?

Speaker 1 (29:41):
You got to work on you?

Speaker 3 (29:42):
You know what I mean?

Speaker 2 (29:43):
Which I can imagine there are probably some relationships out
there with that the cases it's like, hey, I need
to work on me.

Speaker 4 (29:51):
It was like, working on me doesn't mean like going
and playing golf three hours a week. Yeah, And I
think that that that idea, like I'm a therapist and
a dad I've spent my life thinking and working on
this stuff, and I need therapy.

Speaker 1 (30:05):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (30:05):
The other thing that's really important is I do not
believe that everyone needs therapy. I don't think that everyone
needs it all the time. I try and get people
in and out as quickly as I can.

Speaker 3 (30:13):
With a generation of self help.

Speaker 4 (30:15):
Oh man, one hundred percent. It's like, you actually probably
need a run and hang out with your friends without alcohol,
and you need to take your kid with your best
maid and his kid and like spend some quality time together.
That's why when someone asked early on it's like, do
you want to go to this dad's group, I was like, no,
I need to see my friends, Like I actually don't

(30:35):
need I don't need strangers right now. And being able
to tap into my needs. I think that's something that
dads really struggle with. It's something that I struggle with,
is like what to actually need right now because I'm
so focused on what my wife or or the baby
needs that I actually completely disconnect from what's happening internally.
And that has massive flow and effects as well, because

(30:58):
then you get to the point where you're crumbling and
you no one can support you.

Speaker 2 (31:03):
Yeah, I remember I got so angry. I was just
angry with my situation that I couldn't fix my own situation,
mainly because I was worried about how that would impact VAM.
I was so angry at me. I was angry at April.
I was angry at my kid that was like six
months old and not even I was so angry. And

(31:25):
then it was like I went from being angry to
being like, well, I could just not be here, yeah,
you know, And then I kind of wish that I
had earlier on been given the advice that you've got
to put your mask on first. Like ever since I
had that mentality, everyone else around me is everyone's happier.

Speaker 3 (31:45):
Right.

Speaker 2 (31:45):
I might not have given birth, I might not have
been able to breastfeed and stuff like that, but what.

Speaker 1 (31:49):
I can do is help me to help everyone else.

Speaker 2 (31:52):
And I think it took me a while to learn that,
mainly because it was like just the get on with
it mentality, right, people like get on with it. And
I'm not surprised with the with the response we got
where it's like I could do it myself. Bullshit, Right,
if the therapist needs therapy, you can't do it yourself, right,
You might be that sound that you think you can
do it yourself, but everyone else can see that you can't.

Speaker 4 (32:13):
But you talk about that idea of like maybe it's
better that I'm I'm not here, and I think that,
you know, it's so brave to talk about this ash,
but it is also like the most common experience we
know in like the men's health field, is that being
a burden is the greatest risk factor for suicidality amongst
guys because they've got this idea that like, I'm not

(32:34):
of use, I don't have utility, I'm not adding something,
I'm not building, I'm not connecting, there's no point in
me being here. And something that I do clinically that
I think hopefully undermines that idea is like, especially with
a new dad who's going through these experiences, I sit
down with him and he says, they're not going to

(32:55):
miss me, like I'm just I'm just a drain.

Speaker 1 (32:58):
That's how exactly how I felt. Yeah, I'm just a drain.

Speaker 4 (33:00):
And I say, okay, let's go through just this morning
what you did, and they go, well, I drove the
kids to daycare, and then I came home and I
prepped dinner, and then I talked to my wife about
what we're going to do for schools in the area,
and then I, you know, when and planned how you
start to list all this stuff out and you see

(33:22):
this piece of paper in front of you and I go,
this is three hours. How do you think anyone is
better off without having you do that?

Speaker 1 (33:31):
You know?

Speaker 4 (33:31):
And it's like, you need to get into the nitty
gritty of what not being here actually means, what loss
actually looks like. To be able to conceptualize that your
sense of failure is really not true, your idea that
you're not enough is not true, and to start to
build back that self belief really that you are useful,

(33:56):
and to get your mood to kind of follow in
any ways, for a.

Speaker 3 (33:59):
Lot of peop people out there, when they think about
putting on the mask for themselves are probably like I know,
I do, I would go straight to like, well, therapy
is what self help looks like? What are the steps
before that? I know you mentioned about friends. I found
a situation which we spoke about it in a previous
episode where I'd kind of lost friends quicker than I
was making new ones who are in the same situation

(34:19):
as me. What would you recommend to someone who might
be in a similar scenario, what are the smallest steps
they can do to prioritize their own mental health.

Speaker 4 (34:28):
Yeah, it is so important because the vast majority of men,
as I said, don't need therapy or aren't going to
lean into it as the first port of call, nor
should they. It's expensive and it's not there for like
every day functioning.

Speaker 3 (34:40):
You know.

Speaker 4 (34:40):
I think that firstly, we always like disregard, and our
report showed it's like exercise, Like sleep deprivation is massive,
there's no doubt about that, and there's some amount of
it that cannot be avoided for sure. But trying to
focus on your body and like presence and being able
to actually have sense of strength and independence and whatever

(35:02):
in your body is going to flow on to your
mental health. But what you're talking about there is like
where friends are kind of falling away. I think that
what I so often see in guys is this lack
of willingness to say, hey man, I need you, I
love you, I need to talk. And so there is

(35:25):
this silent atrophy that kind of happens over time where
if you don't water the plant, it does, and women
water that plant all the time, Like there is no
deal when it comes to deprioritizing friendship, but for some
reason with guys, because it's not a marker of success fundamentally,
it's not as a man, how many mates you have

(35:47):
after high school. It just doesn't become until you get
to your eulogy and there are how many people are
there who loved you and knew you. There is a
massive period of time throughout your entire met or years
where friendship is not spoken about amongst guys as something
to value when we know, like the Harved longitudinal study

(36:08):
shows over and over again, the guys who are still
alive quality of friendships that's it smoking exercise. Like none
of this stuff is as strong as friendship is. And
we just do not pay attention. We just don't. And
also people don't tell us, Like I spoke to a
mum the other day about this and she messaged her
son after and said, awesome job with your friends, Like

(36:34):
it's incredible. You're nineteen and you've got these three best
mates who you like pay attention to and you put
time and effort into. We need to like pump that
up a bit more because it is life saving. And
I think that you know, the mothers and wives who
are listening have a role to playing this as well,
which is like, again, it's not just crisis like okay,
go and have a boy's weekend. It's like, let them

(36:56):
build the muscle to own a part of the social calendar.
This is why when men get divorced, they fall apart
because they don't as a social scaffolding at all. They're like, oh,
I don't know how to call anybody.

Speaker 3 (37:08):
But I think a lot of I know a lot
of men who are you know, around my age who
are like, oh, I'll see my mate, I'll go to
the pub and we'll have six beers, and like that's
obviously not going to help the situation at all. So
what are the other things that they can be doing.

Speaker 4 (37:24):
This is like the most common thing that guys, especially
when they're going sober, that they come into therapy and
they're like, so I can't see my friends anymore, And
I'm like, have you heard of rock climbing? Like anything?
Like I have to start listing activities.

Speaker 3 (37:42):
Suggestions.

Speaker 4 (37:43):
I feel that Bungee Young, I don't know, like there's
so many things I.

Speaker 2 (37:47):
Feel that, but for walk, I feel like going through
those you know, twenty twenties year, early thirds, before you
have kids.

Speaker 1 (37:56):
So much of my identity was just drinking, and I.

Speaker 2 (38:00):
Think like when when I made the decision to have
a break, you know, the knock on effect was obviously
the benefit that was with my core family, right, but
then as well, it was like what do I do
with my friends? Like thankfully I have Matt that this
is like therapy, that this is our job as well,
which is which is one thing, but those friends that
live close to me, it was like, okay, well what

(38:21):
do we do now?

Speaker 1 (38:23):
And it was like, yeah, so like you know, I,
you know.

Speaker 2 (38:26):
Picked up pickleball with the mate, just so casually, just
because it was like, all right, well, what's something we
can do that's not relying around drink drinking?

Speaker 1 (38:34):
And you're right, You're like you just have you heard
of this?

Speaker 2 (38:36):
You heard of that, you heard of that, And it's
like you kind of think that you can only do
those things if you're wrapped up in the world of alcohol,
because it goes hand in hand, which would you know, it's.

Speaker 4 (38:44):
Just or in the invers it then gets flipped into
this like oh cute romance. I'm like I hate that
as well and can't they just play friezee together and
you know.

Speaker 3 (38:53):
Yeah, why is sport so important? And why why is
it so beneficial?

Speaker 4 (38:58):
Sport is essential? From this, like shoulder to shoulder, this
idea of like sitting side by side with someone watching
sport or playing, you know, being busy with your hands.
I have always within therapy as well with young guys.
I had a ping pong table at a pool table.
I've played you know, cod with them before. This idea
that we should sit across from one another.

Speaker 3 (39:19):
For the moments. That's cool of Judy, So.

Speaker 4 (39:22):
It's a shooting gat but this idea that we should
just like suddenly, we've gone through thirty plus years of
our lives where eye to eye contact with other men
is a scary, dangerous thing, and now let's sit across
from each other and have a deeper, meaningful conversation. This

(39:43):
is where like blowing up the expectations of what vulnerability
looks like, it doesn't need to look the same for everybody.
There are some men who love this, there are plenty
who have been terrified of it. They're not socialized into
this world and it's a weird conversation. And so playing
pool with them, I suddenly get crazy information, you know,
coming out of them because their hands and it's like

(40:04):
men sheds. This is a perfect example. It's like, oh
my hands are busy, I'm doing something, and now I
can be free to not be afraid.

Speaker 1 (40:11):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (40:11):
Like part of obviously I mentioned that I get to
come here and vent every week, and we do that,
but like part of the journey that I'm on was, Okay,
what do I do at home now? Like I'm you know,
I'm a parent at home, but is that my whole
identity now? And like I'm going to give my race
leag a shout out here that I managed to fall
into as an online racing But I find that once

(40:32):
a week we catch up and all of a sudden,
all nine or ten a verse are just getting the
shit off our chest.

Speaker 1 (40:40):
While it's a front, it's always a front. This is
the thing.

Speaker 5 (40:43):
Yeah, right, And it's funny because we're in different countries,
different states or whatever, but where all of a sudden,
we're having conversations about what's happening with you, what's happening
with you, what's happening with your family, Oh my kid
just walked in, And all of a sudden, there's this
conversation happening, but you.

Speaker 1 (40:59):
Do need an instigator.

Speaker 4 (41:01):
I do find that if you get all of the guys,
like someone has to be the banter breaker, yeah, you know,
because and I'm off in the guy and then I
get kicked out of WhatsApp group. But I think there's
something to be said for like if someone can show
that it's okay and it's possible to just share something,
then you get this reciprocal of nature and it happens,

(41:23):
you know, And that's kind of the best thing about
sporting teams, which community, elite whatever. It's this sense of
camaraderie and togetherness which is like, you know, we have
each other's backs, and you know, getting to the point
where that means more than just in a scrum. It's
like who is this person? And I think like that's
where we're coming to when it comes to men's health

(41:45):
more broadly, is understanding that this is not just a
physical manifestation. We have to know who we are and
where we're going as men, you know, psychologically, socially, emotionally.
And I just hope that we're going to get to
the point where men can sit around with one another
and have we don't need like deeper meaningfuls. This idea
of like mental health conversations is like in the dark

(42:06):
in the corner, it's like just how I do it?
But you're bouncing.

Speaker 1 (42:10):
This is the thing.

Speaker 4 (42:11):
It's like me, Actually, they're going to say something real,
full on and dark. You know, we just spoke about
suicide and now we're here. It's like, you don't need
to stay and sit in this thing forever. And so
for the wives listening, the idea that there is this
emotional communication that must have this heaviness for like forty
five minutes and we have to unpack this thing. It's like,

(42:31):
watch how he interacts with his mates. He's actually going
to talk about the dark thing for two minutes and
maybe come back to it half an hour later. Because
it's too hard. It's too hard, and it's not wrong
to do that. And I think we often we give
it a judgment around the fact that, you know, he's
not talking enough, he's not explaining himself, he doesn't talk
about his real feelings. Well, maybe he can say it

(42:52):
in five words. I obviously can't, but other people believe them.

Speaker 2 (42:55):
Yeah, I find like some people, like I've got some
mates that can be pretty closed off. But some times
they'll just say something that makes it would make sense
to the closest person to them that actually is getting
it off their chests. And it's like you've given them
the space to do that. You mentioned that someone's going
to speak up. Or we had Aaron woods On he's
spent his whole life playing sport, and they're in change

(43:16):
rooms with the boys and they're talking. They're talking about
all sorts of things except for maybe how they're all
doing it.

Speaker 1 (43:21):
Remember, I don't know if you do.

Speaker 2 (43:22):
Remember he was going through a lot of miscarriage but
didn't want to talk about it because he felt the
taboo around it.

Speaker 1 (43:29):
But all it took was for a slip off of.

Speaker 2 (43:31):
Him to talk about it in the change room that
all of a sudden, all the people around him were
actually dealing with similar things. And it's like, okay, well
it sort of took that to get.

Speaker 1 (43:41):
It out of everyone, you know.

Speaker 4 (43:44):
And that's that's like the phenomenon consistently found across all
of the work I've done, which is this idea of
the perception gap, which is that we think that the
way in which we view the world is not okay
to be shown because men don't actually think like that,
they don't respond like that. And the locker room is
the perfect example, which is like, actually, when a misogynistic

(44:06):
joke is said and everyone laughs and no one says anything.
If I went around one by one and ask them separately,
what do you reckon about that, the vast majority of
them are going to say I didn't really like it,
but I thought that he found it funny. This is like,
the fear of ostracism is the greatest, the greatest behavioral
experiment that men are going through, which is like, I'm

(44:28):
not going to say anything because I don't want to
rock the boat because I might actually be alone, and
you know, without the mates, I.

Speaker 3 (44:35):
Need talking about being alone for any dads that might
be listening. And I know I felt a little bit
inadequate about the fact that that transition into fatherhood was
a transition that made me feel lonely. What are some
of the elements of being a dad that contribute to
feeling lonely?

Speaker 4 (44:52):
As we spoke about identity, transformation is massive, so you
actually become lonely because you're isolating from your yourself. You're
becoming a new person and your priority shift and trying
to reckon with that is a really difficult thing. And so,
as I said, there's grief and loss, and that means
that you become lonely internally in many ways. There's also

(45:15):
the fact that the first few months postpartum are just
hectic and they are isolating naturally because you need to
be at home. You baby, can't be in the sun,
like there's just certain practicalities. And there's also like there's
only so many visitors you can have because you're exhausted.
And so that's a fundamental thing, which means the phone
is a very useful mechanism to actually and it often

(45:38):
doesn't require a lot, whether it's a text or a
call or something, to just have an anchor with someone
you know. And then I think that what happens after
that is that idea of trying to look after everyone
else but yourself, and so slowly but surely that you know,
weekly pub night or the footy game you're going to

(46:00):
do just falls off rather than going, actually, this is
the thing that I'm going to put first, rather than
an extra hour of work, I'm going to tell my
wife can I do this thing? And what can we
do to kind of make that dance happen. It's typically
about priorities, but it really requires during pregnancy, is kind
of said, to realize that things are about to change

(46:21):
and to go, how do I want to grow with this?
How do I want to adapt? And am I willing
to admit that I might not actually have the same
level of connection for the next couple of months and
that that's okay? Because loneliness is an internal experience. It's
something that you decide. You know, you can be surrounded
by people and feel lonely, and so I think it's

(46:41):
a matter of realizing that where is importance placed, you know,
what matters to you, and how are you going to
go about actually achieving that, rather than going, oh, I
have this need, but there's no time for that, you know?

Speaker 1 (46:54):
Do you think so quickly just on that?

Speaker 2 (46:56):
Do you think that preempting that you're going to have
a period there where you obviously got it, like you said,
you can't leave the house. Do you think it's worth
preempting that? Okay, well, I'm going to have a period
here where everything's going to change and I'm going to
feel lonely, but it's just temporary because of the situation.

Speaker 4 (47:11):
There's definitely that but there's also reframing the idea of
it has to be lonely, Like I went and did
so many walks like pram walks, and the amount of
conversations that I had with strange, like everyone suddenly wants
to have a chat with you, and I think that
that is like it there was a beautiful like community
building exercise that I really didn't expect. And so if

(47:32):
I look back now, I'm like, Okay, I didn't see
my mates as much, but suddenly h on the end
of the street wanted to have a discussion every second day.
And it's like I started to build something else. So
again it's not going, oh things must look the same. Yeah,
why don't I have what I had? It's going actually,
maybe something else is going to appear in being open
to that as well, and.

Speaker 2 (47:50):
Also as well, like as like letting go of what
you had before kids doesn't mean you're gonna let it
go forever, right, you can pick that back up again.

Speaker 1 (47:59):
But yeah, obviously you start to build different.

Speaker 2 (48:02):
Relationships, like you said, on walks and all sorts of things,
because you're trying to essentially you're having a family. That's
what having a family is, right, You've got to concentrate
on that and yourself, and you might have to just
briefly put those friendships like I know you mentioned before,
like those friends that weren't having kids were in different
stages of live and it's like you might have to
just park that for now.

Speaker 1 (48:21):
And that's the thing. It's a dance.

Speaker 4 (48:22):
Some things get turned down, some things get turned up
depending on the day. And it's you know, the idea
that I've done the same thing that I did yesterday
to help my wife, and today it wasn't enough, and
yesterday it was. And you know, yesterday I said gug ga,
gugga and he loved that sound, and today he's fucking
crying and I'm like, I can't go, But what about yesterday?

(48:43):
Like that rigidity is the breakup for us. We have
this idea, it's like, why is this not moving in
this direction rather than saying every day, every hour might
just look a little different and having that flexibility is
the way to survive. Really, Doctor Matt I.

Speaker 3 (49:01):
Wanted to deliver that. We wanted to see that for
a long time. We had a huge response to the
call out for people to submit questions for this episode. Unfortunately,
we cannot answer every single one, but these are some
of the most common ones. And without question, the most
common response that we had from mums about their partners
was the fact that an i'lfrasers as one of the

(49:23):
questions came through, I have an introverted husband. He is
struggling and he needs to talk, but he won't any suggestions,
And that is ninety percent of the submissions that we
had from dotors. With the fact that how do I
get my husband to open up?

Speaker 4 (49:39):
There's an immediate instinct there which is like, I have
to crack him open, you know, I have to find
a way to get this thing out. It always has
to and this is the same thing with therapy. It
has to come from him. He has to have a
motivation to want to share. And so you being like
and then and what and what's happened? Like that is
the worst way to get anyone to share what's happening

(50:02):
with them. And so I do think that it's a
matter of like trying to find the language that doesn't
pathologize and suggests that there is something wrong that you're
really worried about, because that leans into the burden idea
that you know something you failed somehow and instead getting
to the point of saying, I actually am feeling the

(50:22):
ripple effect of what's happening here. I think that the
friendships that you really cared about previously have kind of
fallen away. I've noticed it, and we're feeling it because
you're not yourself. You're not yourself, and we want you
to be able to feel like you can be the
best version of yourself. It's like strength based. It's the

(50:42):
idea of like, I want to help you get to
where you want to be, and that means that he
can take ownership rather than you're trying to shake distress
out of him, you know. And so I do think
that changing the orientation of the conversation of like, why
doesn't he share with me to firstly listening to some
of those cues, because everyone is sharing something, even if

(51:06):
it's hidden, it comes out in little ways. You need
to go looking for it.

Speaker 3 (51:10):
Do you think I know that? When Laura will be
like trying to approach a conversation, I would say, I'm fine,
do you look at certain silos of their life? Well,
you can do digging to be like, well, how's it
going with work? As something happened there, how's it going
with those friendships, are there silos that you can say
to people like, this is where you can do your digging?

Speaker 1 (51:30):
Yeah, and what are they?

Speaker 3 (51:31):
Yeah?

Speaker 4 (51:32):
I think that, as I said, generic statements are not
useful in any way because then it is like, oh,
everything is fucked, Like that's not a good way to start. So, yeah,
talking about friends, work, exercise, diet, you know, alcohol, use,
like all of those big pillars I think are really
good entry points. But it is a matter of also
realizing that you might not be the best person to

(51:53):
have that conversation. In the same way that mums are
always like how do I talk to my boy about
this thing? I'm often like it might be an uncle,
it might be the football coach, it might be the
idea that you hold that as his wife, and you
need to be the one to get this out of him.
I don't think that's too much pressure for you as well.
And so I do think that trying to talk about

(52:15):
your relationship on the whole, like the amount of men
who go into couple's therapy and start to do the
work there because it's not about them, you know, It's like,
maybe there's a way that you can talk about yourself
and the impact that this is having on you and
how you're going with things, and try and actually have
a dialogue rather than an interrogation. It's also the idea

(52:37):
that I know he's struggling, but he doesn't is a
super disempowering entry point to a conversation. How would you
change that center?

Speaker 2 (52:46):
So if my wife came to me and said, I
can see you're struggling, and it sort of takes the
power out of me. There, what phrasing can my wife
use that can not essentially accus it t Yeah.

Speaker 4 (52:59):
Well my wife does it a lot and she's a therapist,
so thank god. But the idea of like what can
we work on to make life a bit easier for you?
Like that's immediately going to what are we going to build?
Building is great, growth is great, Strength is great, rather
than saying this is fucked, you're broken, we need to
fix this together. Instead going what can we make you

(53:21):
know a bit easier in your day to day? What
can we take out? Do you need to go and
see your mates? And what do you think that will
do for the next week. It's like, try and have
the conversation, especially try and have the conversation pre crisis.
Try and have the conversation not before bed when he's exhausted.
It's like, we don't pick our times with this stuff. Either,
we don't pick our time or our language. And I

(53:41):
think I think this growth oriented, strength based conversation that
is also like really focused on action. He's like, what
are we going to do? What are we going to
do about this? Rather than let's sit and have a
discussion about what friendship means to you. It's like, who
is your best mate? Get him on the fucking phone
the end, Like that's what I do in therapy.

Speaker 1 (53:59):
I'm like, call him now, you know.

Speaker 3 (54:00):
Yeah.

Speaker 2 (54:01):
My wife says to me and breaks it down a
little bit where she'll be like, well, instead of making
it how am I.

Speaker 1 (54:06):
Feeling in general, it would just be about that day.
And sometimes I find that actually really helps me. Like
I was having a shit weekend.

Speaker 2 (54:12):
I don't know what it was, just my something in
my brain wasn't working properly, and I think she knew
that the whole weekend. It sort of got to yesterday,
long weekend and she was just like, hey, you feeling today,
Like she had noticed it but hadn't mentioned it, but
then just wanted to know how I was feeling today
and I was like, I actually feel really shit.

Speaker 4 (54:29):
And it's just slept in. It's not this let's go and.

Speaker 3 (54:33):
Have a chat, sit down conversation.

Speaker 4 (54:36):
Up being a boy. It's like and your parents sit
you down. It's like, no, you want to like be
driving on the way to football and she's looking at
you through the rear view mirror and it's just a
throwaway comment like that's how this stuff should kind of be,
because then you don't feel this burden. That's what I
get it together.

Speaker 2 (54:51):
I was just walking out of the kitchen after cleaning
the kitchen and she was like, hey, are you feeling today?

Speaker 1 (54:55):
I was like, actually feeling shit.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
I'm not sure what it is, but it gave me
a space to just say, I don't know what it is,
but just so you.

Speaker 1 (55:00):
Know, I'm not feeling one d P. Yeah, we have
some more questions. Sorry, as I tracked that guys, as
I do quite often.

Speaker 2 (55:06):
Are there some dads that like the idea of being
a dad but not actually being one?

Speaker 4 (55:12):
Sadly, yes, but that comes down to everything we've been
talking about, which is that the realities of being a
dad are complex, are potentially difficult, are beautiful, and I'm
not spoken about. And so when it's like, oh, I
just I want kids, I can't wait whenever I you know,
early on, I remember being in my twenties and having

(55:33):
chats with people like, oh, I just want to be
a dad.

Speaker 1 (55:35):
I want to have a fan.

Speaker 4 (55:36):
I thought I wanted six kids, and I'm like, I'm like,
what does that look like? Way early days, man, I'm like,
what does that look like? You know, like, what is
being a dad? And they're like, oh, I just want
to play footy with him? And I think actually getting
into that nitty gritty of like what this means, because
then that that means when you get to actual fatherhood,

(55:57):
you're not like, oh shit, this isn't what I was promised. Yeah,
in fact, I'm now like changing nappy's' going to fucking masses,
let's go.

Speaker 1 (56:04):
This is great.

Speaker 4 (56:05):
And so it's having different task orientation in many ways
where success is not tied to oh I'm going to
be the fun dad or I'm going to play footy
with him, or it's in fact in the day to
day manusha, which can seem really boring if it hasn't
been spoken about it at all. But I really hope
that dads can get to the point where they go, oh,

(56:27):
it's not this pipe dream that is really disconnected from
my reality. It's it's in that day to day grind
that I want to lean into.

Speaker 3 (56:35):
I'm going to generalize here massively, but I think I
see it a lot where dads will have a short temper,
they get frustrated, they raise their voice, and then they
turn to mom and go, well, I'm not doing a
fucking good job. You do it, You're better at it.
How can mums encourage those dads to still, you know,
be in there, clocking up the hours and trying when

(56:56):
they want to just back out from being a parent?

Speaker 4 (56:59):
Yeah, Like that's fundamental emotion regulation, which is like how
do you deal with distress? How do you deal with
things not going your way? And realizing that you you
clocking off and just saying mom, this is your responsibility.
It's like that is the vast majority of parenting and
just throwing up your hands and saying this isn't for me.

(57:19):
I've tried. Like, adaptation is everything. Find a way to
crack the code, you know, again, like leaning into the strength.
It's like, Okay, some days it's just not going to
happen because you're exhausted and you know everything's tough, and
some days your partner will have more in the tank
and vice versa. But saying like this isn't my game.

(57:40):
You know, we were talking before around this idea of
supportive partners. I hate that term, the idea of like
present dads, all of these hands hands on dads, exactly
all of these terms walked into that, that idea of like, oh, no,

(58:00):
dating is cute, but the others are like there's a
fundamental underlying expectation there which is like, oh, you are
breaking the norm. Congratulations for putting them in the urgo
baby and taking them for a walk. Everyone should line
up and bow down to you.

Speaker 1 (58:14):
I hate that.

Speaker 4 (58:16):
I hate that because it's so undermining, and I don't
know why dads aren't like railing against this idea that
like bravo for doing the simplest things. And that's the
same thing when it comes to when you're having a
shit day, rising above that and going I can do
more for my kids right now than I can probably

(58:36):
do for myself, you know, is a beautiful thing.

Speaker 2 (58:39):
The person who throws their hands up right doesn't know
the feeling of what it's like to keep at it
and get it. Oh yeah, and when you get I
just got goosebumps thinking about that. You keep at that,
and I was I put my hand up. I was
one of the first to be like, this is all
too fucking hard. I'm not good enough, right, I mean,
that was my own problem I had to deal with.
But since that, and especially now as my kids are now,

(59:03):
Oscar's coming to the footy with me and doing these things,
which was the which is the pipe dreamings that we
spoke about. But I put the work in to get there, right,
And it's so much sweeter now that the work is
being put in to get to these little things. So
it's like what I might have gone, you need to
do this bag because I can't do it.

Speaker 1 (59:22):
I'm like, fuck it, I can do this too, right.

Speaker 2 (59:25):
And I used to be so hard on myself and
still am, but I'm actually benefiting from that now where
it's like, it's so much sweeter when you don't throw
your hands up.

Speaker 3 (59:33):
Oh yeah. It went to throw on a sport analogy
if I may, why not the goal is and it
doesn't happen all the time, and sometimes this is never
going to happen. But there's nights where you do get
through dinner, bath, put them to bed, give them a hug,
they say I love you. You get that little bit
of affection, no blow ups, no tantrums. Oh my fucking god.

Speaker 4 (59:55):
Wow, Like it's mastery.

Speaker 3 (59:57):
It's like that is the fuel that is. There is
no greater feeling as a parent. I find when I
have those moments, and that's what I'm chasing.

Speaker 1 (01:00:05):
When they call Dad instead of Mum that one time.

Speaker 2 (01:00:07):
Ah fucking yeah, I earned that, Yeah, exactly, exactly.

Speaker 3 (01:00:12):
So anyway, sorry, I've heard that men can get PPD.
Is it true? And if so, other signs the same
for mum as they are for dad.

Speaker 4 (01:00:22):
Yes, many men can get PPD. We've spoken about that loneliness,
that isolation, that disconnection. You know. I think this idea
that it's going to be his bedridden, is on the couch,
is sad and hopeless and not willing to talk is
you know, that's a subgroup. But currently estimations are about
like one in ten dads go through this. I think
that's a massive underestimation because we're not looking for the

(01:00:44):
right things. Male depression looks like often risk taking, irritability, violence,
drug taking, you know, anger like things that are condoned
as like male specific behaviors. Its external rather than internal.
You've got all these internal feelings and you push them
down as much as you can, and then they explode

(01:01:05):
and avoidance, you know, just like I'm out. I can't
do this, it's too much. Just constant overwhelm, I think,
is something that happens a lot. So the onset why
it happens, how it happens can look really different for
lots of dads, but it often is tied to that
shift in identity and that grief, which is like things
have shifted underneath me. I was not aware that this

(01:01:26):
was going to happen, and now I have to say
goodbye suddenly to all of these parts of myself that
I loved, and I don't know what I'm walking into,
and so immediately that becomes scary and I kind of
hate it. And so that transition is going to be
depressing for many rather than going as I said, Yes,
parts of myself have you know, been set to sea,

(01:01:49):
but so many doors are going to be open now,
and like seeing that opportunity and having these conversations about
who I'm going to be, what type of dad? I'm
going to be how I'm going to show up, what
my kid means to me, how I'm going to you know,
take part in day to day activities. All of that
is purpose building and is defensive against depression.

Speaker 2 (01:02:07):
Husband has OCD and having kids exacerbated his thoughts on
bad things happening to us.

Speaker 1 (01:02:14):
Any tips to manage.

Speaker 4 (01:02:16):
Like therapy is a go for that, because that's you know,
our bread and butter, and we deal with that really well.
OCD is something that psychology has mastered. I think, out
of many different things, we've gotten that down pat and
it's a matter of challenging those thoughts and actually leaning
into pretty you know, complex behaviors that it's really a
matter of like doing a behavioral experiment and going, okay,

(01:02:39):
you think that this thing is going to happen night.
A client once who who was afraid of holding knives
because he thought he was going to stab his mother,
and it turned out that it's because he loved his
mum and he lost his dad early on, and it's
like this fear of if my mum is gone, I'll
have nobody, and so your brain starts to play tricks
on you. And so really it's a matter, and what
all we had to do is like get him holding knives.

(01:03:02):
You know, therapy is filled of.

Speaker 1 (01:03:03):
Like exposure therapy.

Speaker 4 (01:03:04):
Precisely, this is often often the way.

Speaker 3 (01:03:07):
This one hits a little close to home for Ash.
But this mum has written in and said that her
husband would have between four to six beeers every night
in addition to smoking weed. She wants to bring up
that being an issue with him, but as afraid of
the conflict that will arise if she brings it up.

Speaker 4 (01:03:25):
This is really tough, it really is, and it's something
happening in households across the country. I'm interested Ash, if
your partner spoke to you about this where it had
to be like a self realization that this is getting
out of control.

Speaker 2 (01:03:39):
For me, I've been pretty aware for a long time
that I have had an unhealthy relationship with alcohol.

Speaker 1 (01:03:44):
I can I mean April had brought it up with
me in.

Speaker 2 (01:03:48):
The past and which I was quite defensive.

Speaker 1 (01:03:52):
I think it comes down to you've got to realize
it yourself.

Speaker 3 (01:03:56):
I think what made you realize, do you remember.

Speaker 2 (01:04:00):
Was a fat slob? That's how I felt about myself.
I was a fat slob and I was so.

Speaker 1 (01:04:06):
That can lead to more fat slobbery.

Speaker 2 (01:04:08):
It can it also, I think at the time I
put it down to that I wanted to have a break.
We had a guest on a long time ago, Ben
from ben Zara, who was ten years sober. He's ten
years sober now, but he said something that didn't go
away with me. It stuck with me for so long.
He said to me he woke up and the party
was over.

Speaker 3 (01:04:28):
Wow.

Speaker 1 (01:04:29):
That just sat with me for so long.

Speaker 2 (01:04:32):
And I knew times when my drinking was impacting my
family and I would cut back, I would find other
avenues to keep it away from them. I would start
to isolate, I'd start to hide it, and I was
having I was ticking all these boxes that I was like,
this can't be healthy, right. And I think one day
that message from Ben came to the forefront and it.

Speaker 1 (01:04:54):
Was like is the party over? Ash?

Speaker 2 (01:04:56):
And I think once I had started to to retract
from alcohol and see the benefits that it was actually
giving me and doing for my family, that it was
a byproduct of that, how healthy it's become. But I
could see that April was similar to this person where
it was she didn't want to say something because it

(01:05:17):
was kind of like didn't want to feel like the
nagging wife behind it all, and also didn't want to
feel like it was going to cause conflict because it
would have Yeah, because it wasn't my idea, and I
can happily admit that.

Speaker 3 (01:05:31):
So how do we speed roump this self reflections? There's
so many moms out there who were like, I pray
that my partner will have that realization that the party
is over.

Speaker 4 (01:05:40):
It's super hard to do. I think that realizing the
impacts and really getting into the fine details of the
impacts of his drinking and being like because I often
think that they don't think that you know, you know
what's happening the next day, and like and being able
to say, here is a list of all the things
that I have noticed that happened the day after you've

(01:06:03):
been drinking that has an effect on me and our daughter,
for instance, here are all of these things, and understanding
that the drink is actually typically not the problem. It's
the vehicle and what is underlying that, which is often
a sense of failure. I need to get out of here,
I need to avoid, I need to distract. I don't
feel like I'm good enough whatever those things are That

(01:06:26):
is what needs to be dealt with, you know. Finally,
mine was escape.

Speaker 2 (01:06:30):
I wanted to escape the situation that I was in,
and that was I found that I thought this is
escaping it, but in fact it wasn't. It was suppressing it,
and then the people around me were having to deal
with me being a dick about it.

Speaker 4 (01:06:43):
Sure, but having a discussion around escape, I think is
a way more fruitful exercise for sure, like what are
we running away from? And being like, as a wife,
I want to get the fuck out of here often,
but I can't sometimes, and so it's like, how do
we and having that reciprocal discussion about the fact that
this is tough. We're both finding it tough in different ways,

(01:07:05):
We're both coping in different ways, and that is having
an effect on the unit. So how are we going
to find a way through this? And being like you
need to go cold turkey now is never going to
be a a good mechanism. So working with him, you know,
creating that sense of unity. We're up against this thing,

(01:07:25):
We're going to work together to try and solve it. Again,
it's action oriented, its growth mindset. It's not like you're
deficient and broken and I think that's the way forward.

Speaker 3 (01:07:34):
We have taken up a lot of your time. Yeah, Zach,
sorry about it, so sorry, but we want to say
thank you so much for jumping on the episode. It
is the first time that I've spoken to a clinical
psychologist and I'm like, I want more of this.

Speaker 2 (01:07:47):
Yeah, thank you so much, and of course thank you
to November for making this happen. Of course, so just
tell us a little bit more about this. We will
leave links in the show notes all about this. It
is the more than a provider, yep.

Speaker 4 (01:08:00):
It's a new report on Fatherhood, Australian Fathers on Health,
Identity and Experiences of Parenthood and it's really just all
of the stuff we've been speaking about today, that really
complex world that dads are finding themselves in now new
dad's old systems. Really we need new systems. We need
to be fighting for what paternity leave looks like, routine
mental health checks, dad groups like all of these this

(01:08:23):
infrastructure to support us and also be having the conversations
behind the scenes around what does it mean to be
a dad today and not just trying to inherit things
from previous generations but building something new for us.

Speaker 3 (01:08:35):
So many dads are going to benefit from the work
that you were doing, Zach, So thank you so much.
We really appreciate it.

Speaker 1 (01:08:39):
Thanks guys, Thinks sank Ash.

Speaker 3 (01:08:41):
Do you remember when we said that we would never
talk about giving advice? Do we say that? Is that
we say? Is that what we say?

Speaker 1 (01:08:48):
We say it every week?

Speaker 3 (01:08:49):
I don't think we ever said that.

Speaker 1 (01:08:51):
Actually, only two hundred and thirty something times fair.

Speaker 3 (01:08:55):
Actually, do you know how I blame for this the
listeners because we asked them, We said, do you do
you want experts?

Speaker 1 (01:09:00):
And they said no, and then they said yeah.

Speaker 3 (01:09:04):
It was like my mum saying, do you want to
beef Wellington? And I was like ugh, and then she
serves it and I was like, give me.

Speaker 1 (01:09:10):
More, give me more of that sweet sweet stuff.

Speaker 3 (01:09:12):
But it's great to have someone like zack On. But
it's so great to have someone like zach On because
I know that there are so many parents out there
who are going to benefit from the information that he's
given us.

Speaker 2 (01:09:22):
And it is Men's Health Week, so checking on yourself,
checking on the other men around you, and of course
the dads, and visit November dot com for tools, resources
and support.

Speaker 3 (01:09:31):
They are such a great charity so huge thanks to
them for making this set possible and.

Speaker 2 (01:09:35):
If you have enjoyed this at please leave a review,
subscribe if you will, or you can join us on
socials at two Doting Dad's Instagram, TikTok, Facebook, YouTube, or
you can email us at hello at two Doting dads
dot com.

Speaker 3 (01:09:47):
Just a little note that this episode, now all the
guest episodes, are available in long form video format on YouTube,
but if you are going to watch it there, make
sure you still listen as well.

Speaker 1 (01:09:58):
You had me at long form. Let's get out of Here.
Let's Get out of Here.

Speaker 3 (01:10:14):
Two Doting Dads Podcast acknowledges the traditional custodians of country
throughout Australia and the connections to land, sea and community.

Speaker 1 (01:10:22):
We pay our respects to their elders past and present
and extend that respect to all Aboriginal and Torrestraight Islander
peoples today. This episode was recorded on gadagal Land

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