May 5, 2025 • 12 mins
Watch Carol and Tim LIVE every day on YouTube: http://bit.ly/3vTiACF.
Carol Massar and Emily Graffeo speak with Bloomberg Climate Reporter Eric Roston and Bloomberg Space Reporter Sana Pashankar. They discuss their Big Take story on decommissioned satellites and what happens during their scheduled demise as they fall back to Earth.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
You are listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch
us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern.
Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app,
or watch us live on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Not like you don't have enough things to worry about,
but check this out, folks.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
You know, daily life.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Increasingly depends on systems of satellite satellites orbiting the Earth.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
As fleets proliferate, every greater.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Numbers of expired units will ultimately hurtle back towards the surface.
They're coming back down, So what could possibly go wrong?
I got to say this is the subject today at
Bloomberg's Big Take. It means the Bloomberg editorial team has
said this is.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
A must read. It is also among the most read
stories on the Bloomberg, And I.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Got to say it's a story that should be experienced
online or on the Bloomberg because it's just very cool
in terms of the graphics and images and animations that
a company.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
All Right, So let's get to it.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
A team of reporters worked on it, led by Bloomberg
News Sustainability editor Eric Roston, he joins us here in studio,
also with us as Bloomberg News space reporter Sana Pussienkart,
she is in Washington, d C.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
All right, guys, incredible, we've all been talking about this story.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
It's a little terrifying. Eric, Why don't you set this scene.
We know that there are a lot of satellites in space,
and we're talking about a lot of times.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
There are a lot of smaller satellites. We know we
really need them.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Lay it all out for us, give us some size
and scope here and what we're feeling, what we're dealing with.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Sure, so we've been sending up ever more satellites since
the advent several years ago of satellite Internet services, obviously
with Starlink being the pretty far ahead of all the others.
And we've all read stories over the years of space junk,
(01:53):
and there's so much stuff that we've sent into orbit
that there's increase in concern that something might hit something
else and then you'll have screws flying around twenty thousand
miles an hour. Nobody wants that. So, knowing that all
these satellites were going up, they were built according to
what's called a designed for demise strategy basically at the.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
End of the like a plan to obsolescence in space
one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, and like these things last like five years, and
so they deorbit them and they just let the atmosphere
burn them up. And the thing, the funny thing about
burning something up is like you don't get rid of
it's the particles that make it up. So all those
particles that used to be in the satellite are just
going to become a part of the atmosphere. And that's
(02:39):
kind of been fine in over the decades as we've
deorbited things and burned them up the atmosphere. But given
the projections of how many satellites are going to go
up and how many are going to have to come
out of orbit every day, they're looking at a seating
of the top of the atmosphere with a number of
(03:00):
substances that could lead to further deterioration of the ozone layer,
which is this this gaseous layer that hangs in the
stratosphere and protects living things from the Sun's ultra violet race.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Basically, we're allowed to live right survive because we have
the ozone layer.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah, it's a little.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Important, it's pretty important. And so there's and the neat
thing about the science that is coming out now is
like it's not a problem yet. Like one thing that
I think has overlooked a lot about some of these
like big systemic planetary problems is like, even though they're
like they seem huge and unmanageable to us, like you know,
(03:40):
a big rock in space with it like atmosphere around
it is kind of easy to model for the physicists.
And so they've gotten pretty good over the last fifty
to one hundred years of saying, hey, if we keep
adding these materials like this is probably going to happen.
So we're getting the alert just when we need it
most in just when the industry and governments can decide
(04:03):
how they want to cope with the issue.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
So, Sona, let's bring you in here. Maybe you could
just describe to us what actually happens. There's a satellite,
you know, it's deconstructing I guess we could call it,
and it's falling from the sky, Like what is going
on with the satellite itself? And then in the atmosphere
when this is taking place.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
Yeah, so they're basically the satellites when.
Speaker 7 (04:29):
They are diorbited at the end of their life span,
they basically disintegrate upon re entry, so the atmosphere kind
of pulls them in and they burn up in the
fiery atmosphere and they release materials like aluminium and other
metals and that, as Eric mentioned, it can potentially alter
(04:50):
the chemical composition of the upper atmosphere and it could
also you know, deplete the ozone layer. And as Eric mentioned,
and you know that the research is still it's still new,
it's still burgeoning, but that is what scientists are saying.
And you know, it's especially important because this issue is
(05:11):
only supposed to get more extreme as the number.
Speaker 6 (05:13):
Of satellites are expected to project.
Speaker 7 (05:15):
So right now, the amount of satellites and the amison
in orbit have basically followed like a hockey puck trend,
soy they keep.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
Every single year, there's been like for that.
Speaker 7 (05:27):
I think at the past five or six years, there's
been a record number of satellites going up. And you know,
there's some projections that there's you know, around twelve thousand
today and that could go up to between nearly sixty
thousand to one hundred thousand.
Speaker 6 (05:39):
In about five years. That's nuts exactly.
Speaker 7 (05:43):
So with that all those satellites have to come down
at some point. So that's why, you know, the alarm
bell is so important right now because we have the
opportunity to kind of help, you know, make regulation mitigate
those impacts before maybe it becomes too late.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Oh that's I'm so sweet. I just go throwing numbers.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
You guys have great stats in the Airpart twenty thirty five,
Golden Sacks projects the value of the satellite industry will
reach one hundred and eight billion, up from fifteen billion.
I'm being fun with you in terms of regulation because
I'm just wondering. It sounds like Eric, somebody the government,
like somebody needs to be watching and saying we got
to deal with this potentially.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah, and ironically, the government's decision that these things should
sunset after five years was a part of looking at
the situation and forward thinking. But you know, there's just
no free lunch. So any policy decision is do they.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Have to have them sunset after five years.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Well, they'll stop working just at a certain point, and
totally you don't want stuff flying around. I mean, one
of the things they're looking at that engineers are looking
at in terms of making these things themselves is are
there other materials they can make it out of, you know,
things that may not see the atmosphere with these particular chemicals.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
SANA talk to us about the observed environmental impacts that
we've seen so far. I know in the in the piece,
you guys mentioned soot and I'm wondering, you know, scientists
have observed these effects, but do we understand yet whether
these are are necessarily bad or not.
Speaker 7 (07:23):
Yeah, So it is an early It is an early
field of research. But it has been seen that that
like kerosene, which used to power many launches. So this
is now talking about when the rockets are bringing the
satellites into orbit that was powered by kerosene, which could
(07:44):
lead to sub pollution. So that is you know, a
chronicle chronicled effect.
Speaker 6 (07:50):
And so when.
Speaker 7 (07:51):
That is you know at at locked your heights like
it's in the atmosphere, it absorbs heat and it accelerates
glacial So that is one impact that we know is happening.
But that's more associated with launches than with satellite re entries.
With satellite re entries, it's a little bit more uncertain.
(08:11):
They definitely have There's been a good amount of research
that says that these particles have the especially the ones
that are like aluminum and aluminum ones have the ability
to you know.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
Affect the ozone layer. But those are still.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
Being studied and there's definitely like a lot more research
that needs to be done to understand how is you know,
the best way for satellite companies to think about this,
the best way for governments to think about this industry.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because you guys include in
this too about what happened with jet fuel right and
the impact on the ozone and certainly companies, the industries
came together, and I want to put this out to
both of you. Son, I'll go to you first, and
then Eric maybe come on in. It's just I mean,
is regulation even an option when you have someone like
Elon Musk around the White House trying to get SpaceX contracts?
(09:06):
You know, guilty, I've got you know, one of his discs.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
I can't even think about. It's called Darling, Starling, Thank
you very much.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Like I like, I understand it works really well the value,
But I'm just curious, is it even an option with
Elon Musk and Son? If you have some thoughts in that,
then I'd love Eric for you to address as well.
Speaker 6 (09:25):
Yeah, totally. I mean it's hard.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
I feel like this is not you know, what's on
top of mind for people in the government and especially
satellite companies, and like the people that you think about
this regulation, which is the FCC. The FCC makes the
regulations for space companies. The Space Bureau chief of the
FCC said that we can, you know, manage this without regulation,
(09:49):
and we can be sustainable in space without regulation. But
it's also like it's confusing how exactly that would happen
without regulation.
Speaker 6 (09:57):
And so I think that.
Speaker 7 (09:58):
When you have an administry that is so enthusiastic about
reaching the commercial heights of space and lower orbit, it's
definitely feels more difficult than maybe it could have been
in the past or in another administration. And also like
we spoke to several companies and you know, they are
(10:19):
going to keep operating the way they do unless someone
tells them, you know, that there's new regulation you have
to do that.
Speaker 6 (10:26):
So I think it will really have to start at
the top.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
But as you said, I think it's a little bit
difficult to see that really happening.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And today, Eric Coboning, could you guys even talk about
I think someone talking about you know, we need some
research a little bit more, right, and we know research
has been cut back in a big way in the government.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, you can just roll out of bed and collect
data from the top of the stratosphere. And there's some
data that's that's come in over the years from launches
to see what's what's in the wake of rocket launches.
But this is they need a new program. There was
(11:04):
there was a good study in twenty twenty three that
came out, one of the first things to put this
on the map. They flew NASA stratospheric you know, high
flying airplanes, collected some materials from up there, and they
found that like already like ten percent of the stratospheric
(11:25):
aerosols have aluminum in it from re entered satellites, you know.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
The Yeah, so I don't know. I hate to leave
people with like, well, there's there's a good part.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
You know, we have a we have a strong history
of dealing with the ozone layer. You know, there was
a huge problem in the mid eighties. All the countries
got together decided they were going to fix it, right.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah, so like maybe we should take a page from
the history books in this and Let's hope everybody looks
at that and reminder of what we can do.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Guys. Incredible story Sna Passion Kerr.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
She is a Bloomberg News Space reporter out in DC,
and of course Eric Roston, Bloomberg New Sustainability Editor.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Check it out. It is the Bloomberg Big Take. It's
on the Bloomberg
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news.
Speaker 2 (00:08):
You are listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch
us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern.
Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app,
or watch us live on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (00:22):
Not like you don't have enough things to worry about,
but check this out, folks.
Speaker 4 (00:25):
You know, daily life.
Speaker 3 (00:26):
Increasingly depends on systems of satellite satellites orbiting the Earth.
Speaker 4 (00:31):
As fleets proliferate, every greater.
Speaker 3 (00:34):
Numbers of expired units will ultimately hurtle back towards the surface.
They're coming back down, So what could possibly go wrong?
I got to say this is the subject today at
Bloomberg's Big Take. It means the Bloomberg editorial team has
said this is.
Speaker 4 (00:47):
A must read. It is also among the most read
stories on the Bloomberg, And I.
Speaker 3 (00:51):
Got to say it's a story that should be experienced
online or on the Bloomberg because it's just very cool
in terms of the graphics and images and animations that
a company.
Speaker 4 (01:00):
All Right, So let's get to it.
Speaker 3 (01:01):
A team of reporters worked on it, led by Bloomberg
News Sustainability editor Eric Roston, he joins us here in studio,
also with us as Bloomberg News space reporter Sana Pussienkart,
she is in Washington, d C.
Speaker 4 (01:13):
All right, guys, incredible, we've all been talking about this story.
Speaker 3 (01:16):
It's a little terrifying. Eric, Why don't you set this scene.
We know that there are a lot of satellites in space,
and we're talking about a lot of times.
Speaker 4 (01:23):
There are a lot of smaller satellites. We know we
really need them.
Speaker 3 (01:27):
Lay it all out for us, give us some size
and scope here and what we're feeling, what we're dealing with.
Speaker 1 (01:31):
Sure, so we've been sending up ever more satellites since
the advent several years ago of satellite Internet services, obviously
with Starlink being the pretty far ahead of all the others.
And we've all read stories over the years of space junk,
(01:53):
and there's so much stuff that we've sent into orbit
that there's increase in concern that something might hit something
else and then you'll have screws flying around twenty thousand
miles an hour. Nobody wants that. So, knowing that all
these satellites were going up, they were built according to
what's called a designed for demise strategy basically at the.
Speaker 3 (02:15):
End of the like a plan to obsolescence in space
one hundred percent.
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah, and like these things last like five years, and
so they deorbit them and they just let the atmosphere
burn them up. And the thing, the funny thing about
burning something up is like you don't get rid of
it's the particles that make it up. So all those
particles that used to be in the satellite are just
going to become a part of the atmosphere. And that's
(02:39):
kind of been fine in over the decades as we've
deorbited things and burned them up the atmosphere. But given
the projections of how many satellites are going to go
up and how many are going to have to come
out of orbit every day, they're looking at a seating
of the top of the atmosphere with a number of
(03:00):
substances that could lead to further deterioration of the ozone layer,
which is this this gaseous layer that hangs in the
stratosphere and protects living things from the Sun's ultra violet race.
Speaker 3 (03:12):
Basically, we're allowed to live right survive because we have
the ozone layer.
Speaker 4 (03:16):
Yeah, it's a little.
Speaker 1 (03:17):
Important, it's pretty important. And so there's and the neat
thing about the science that is coming out now is
like it's not a problem yet. Like one thing that
I think has overlooked a lot about some of these
like big systemic planetary problems is like, even though they're
like they seem huge and unmanageable to us, like you know,
(03:40):
a big rock in space with it like atmosphere around
it is kind of easy to model for the physicists.
And so they've gotten pretty good over the last fifty
to one hundred years of saying, hey, if we keep
adding these materials like this is probably going to happen.
So we're getting the alert just when we need it
most in just when the industry and governments can decide
(04:03):
how they want to cope with the issue.
Speaker 5 (04:06):
So, Sona, let's bring you in here. Maybe you could
just describe to us what actually happens. There's a satellite,
you know, it's deconstructing I guess we could call it,
and it's falling from the sky, Like what is going
on with the satellite itself? And then in the atmosphere
when this is taking place.
Speaker 6 (04:26):
Yeah, so they're basically the satellites when.
Speaker 7 (04:29):
They are diorbited at the end of their life span,
they basically disintegrate upon re entry, so the atmosphere kind
of pulls them in and they burn up in the
fiery atmosphere and they release materials like aluminium and other
metals and that, as Eric mentioned, it can potentially alter
(04:50):
the chemical composition of the upper atmosphere and it could
also you know, deplete the ozone layer. And as Eric mentioned,
and you know that the research is still it's still new,
it's still burgeoning, but that is what scientists are saying.
And you know, it's especially important because this issue is
(05:11):
only supposed to get more extreme as the number.
Speaker 6 (05:13):
Of satellites are expected to project.
Speaker 7 (05:15):
So right now, the amount of satellites and the amison
in orbit have basically followed like a hockey puck trend,
soy they keep.
Speaker 6 (05:25):
Every single year, there's been like for that.
Speaker 7 (05:27):
I think at the past five or six years, there's
been a record number of satellites going up. And you know,
there's some projections that there's you know, around twelve thousand
today and that could go up to between nearly sixty
thousand to one hundred thousand.
Speaker 6 (05:39):
In about five years. That's nuts exactly.
Speaker 7 (05:43):
So with that all those satellites have to come down
at some point. So that's why, you know, the alarm
bell is so important right now because we have the
opportunity to kind of help, you know, make regulation mitigate
those impacts before maybe it becomes too late.
Speaker 4 (05:59):
Oh that's I'm so sweet. I just go throwing numbers.
Speaker 3 (06:02):
You guys have great stats in the Airpart twenty thirty five,
Golden Sacks projects the value of the satellite industry will
reach one hundred and eight billion, up from fifteen billion.
I'm being fun with you in terms of regulation because
I'm just wondering. It sounds like Eric, somebody the government,
like somebody needs to be watching and saying we got
to deal with this potentially.
Speaker 1 (06:20):
Yeah, and ironically, the government's decision that these things should
sunset after five years was a part of looking at
the situation and forward thinking. But you know, there's just
no free lunch. So any policy decision is do they.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Have to have them sunset after five years.
Speaker 1 (06:38):
Well, they'll stop working just at a certain point, and
totally you don't want stuff flying around. I mean, one
of the things they're looking at that engineers are looking
at in terms of making these things themselves is are
there other materials they can make it out of, you know,
things that may not see the atmosphere with these particular chemicals.
Speaker 5 (07:03):
SANA talk to us about the observed environmental impacts that
we've seen so far. I know in the in the piece,
you guys mentioned soot and I'm wondering, you know, scientists
have observed these effects, but do we understand yet whether
these are are necessarily bad or not.
Speaker 7 (07:23):
Yeah, So it is an early It is an early
field of research. But it has been seen that that
like kerosene, which used to power many launches. So this
is now talking about when the rockets are bringing the
satellites into orbit that was powered by kerosene, which could
(07:44):
lead to sub pollution. So that is you know, a
chronicle chronicled effect.
Speaker 6 (07:50):
And so when.
Speaker 7 (07:51):
That is you know at at locked your heights like
it's in the atmosphere, it absorbs heat and it accelerates
glacial So that is one impact that we know is happening.
But that's more associated with launches than with satellite re entries.
With satellite re entries, it's a little bit more uncertain.
(08:11):
They definitely have There's been a good amount of research
that says that these particles have the especially the ones
that are like aluminum and aluminum ones have the ability
to you know.
Speaker 6 (08:27):
Affect the ozone layer. But those are still.
Speaker 7 (08:29):
Being studied and there's definitely like a lot more research
that needs to be done to understand how is you know,
the best way for satellite companies to think about this,
the best way for governments to think about this industry.
Speaker 3 (08:42):
Yeah, you know, it's interesting because you guys include in
this too about what happened with jet fuel right and
the impact on the ozone and certainly companies, the industries
came together, and I want to put this out to
both of you. Son, I'll go to you first, and
then Eric maybe come on in. It's just I mean,
is regulation even an option when you have someone like
Elon Musk around the White House trying to get SpaceX contracts?
(09:06):
You know, guilty, I've got you know, one of his discs.
Speaker 4 (09:11):
I can't even think about. It's called Darling, Starling, Thank
you very much.
Speaker 3 (09:14):
Like I like, I understand it works really well the value,
But I'm just curious, is it even an option with
Elon Musk and Son? If you have some thoughts in that,
then I'd love Eric for you to address as well.
Speaker 6 (09:25):
Yeah, totally. I mean it's hard.
Speaker 7 (09:27):
I feel like this is not you know, what's on
top of mind for people in the government and especially
satellite companies, and like the people that you think about
this regulation, which is the FCC. The FCC makes the
regulations for space companies. The Space Bureau chief of the
FCC said that we can, you know, manage this without regulation,
(09:49):
and we can be sustainable in space without regulation. But
it's also like it's confusing how exactly that would happen
without regulation.
Speaker 6 (09:57):
And so I think that.
Speaker 7 (09:58):
When you have an administry that is so enthusiastic about
reaching the commercial heights of space and lower orbit, it's
definitely feels more difficult than maybe it could have been
in the past or in another administration. And also like
we spoke to several companies and you know, they are
(10:19):
going to keep operating the way they do unless someone
tells them, you know, that there's new regulation you have
to do that.
Speaker 6 (10:26):
So I think it will really have to start at
the top.
Speaker 7 (10:28):
But as you said, I think it's a little bit
difficult to see that really happening.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
And today, Eric Coboning, could you guys even talk about
I think someone talking about you know, we need some
research a little bit more, right, and we know research
has been cut back in a big way in the government.
Speaker 1 (10:43):
Yeah, you can just roll out of bed and collect
data from the top of the stratosphere. And there's some
data that's that's come in over the years from launches
to see what's what's in the wake of rocket launches.
But this is they need a new program. There was
(11:04):
there was a good study in twenty twenty three that
came out, one of the first things to put this
on the map. They flew NASA stratospheric you know, high
flying airplanes, collected some materials from up there, and they
found that like already like ten percent of the stratospheric
(11:25):
aerosols have aluminum in it from re entered satellites, you know.
Speaker 4 (11:33):
The Yeah, so I don't know. I hate to leave
people with like, well, there's there's a good part.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
You know, we have a we have a strong history
of dealing with the ozone layer. You know, there was
a huge problem in the mid eighties. All the countries
got together decided they were going to fix it, right.
Speaker 3 (11:50):
Yeah, so like maybe we should take a page from
the history books in this and Let's hope everybody looks
at that and reminder of what we can do.
Speaker 4 (11:56):
Guys. Incredible story Sna Passion Kerr.
Speaker 3 (12:00):
She is a Bloomberg News Space reporter out in DC,
and of course Eric Roston, Bloomberg New Sustainability Editor.
Speaker 4 (12:05):
Check it out. It is the Bloomberg Big Take. It's
on the Bloomberg
Hosts And Creators
Tim Stenovec
Carol Massar
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