August 26, 2024 • 39 mins
Watch Carol and Tim LIVE every day on YouTube: http://bit.ly/3vTiACF.
Bloomberg News Tech Features Writer Ellen Huet explains that many of Nvidia's employees have grown rich but still face a stress-filled work life. Bloomberg News Senior Aerospace Reporter Julie Johnsson talks about Boeing suffering a new setback after NASA snubs Starliner for SpaceX. Maria Korsnick, CEO of the Nuclear Energy Institute, discusses the momentum for funding nuclear energy development in the US. And we Drive to the Close with Dave Harden, Founder and CIO at Summit Global Investments.
Hosts: Tim Stenovec and Katie Greifeld. Producer: Paul Brennan.
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg Business
Wait inside from the reporters and editors who bring you
America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and
tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week podcast with Carol Messer
(00:23):
and Tim Stenebek from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
As I mentioned, it is the most read story today
on the Bloomberg Terminal. It's about a place in Santa Clara, California,
where Porsche's corvettes and Lamborghini's take up the parking spaces.
It's the parking lot of a company whose stock is
up more than thirty seven hundred percent since the beginning
of twenty nineteen. The company has piled on market cap
faster than any other in history. So it's made a
(00:47):
lot of people who work there pretty wealthy. We're talking
vacation homes, the Super Bowl, those vehicles, NBA Finals. They
also work a lot. If you haven't guessed it already,
we're talking about Nvidia. It's a place where people work hard.
In fact, the hours are grueling, in high stress, current
informer employees say, leaving little time for the jet setting,
home buying and leisure. Many can now afford. A culture
(01:10):
problem is brewing, said the people, who ask not to
be identified for fear of retribution. Ellen Hewett is Bloomberg
News tech features writer, and she contributed to the story,
which I'm mentioned is the most read on the Bloomberg terminal.
Ellen joins us from San Francisco. So, Ellen, what is
it like to work at Nvidia?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Well, I think it's been quite a ride for Nvidia employees,
especially those who have been there for more than just
a few years. Keep in mind, this company is decades old.
It's been around for a really long time, and it's
one of those companies that you know, unless you were
really imaged in Silicon Valley, you might not know it,
or you might even mispronounce its name, obviously, until the
(01:47):
last couple of years when you know the stock price
ends sort of. The AI boom has made Nvidia a
household name. And so if you are an employee who
only started working there recently, maybe your life is about normal.
But if you've been there, maybe five ten years, and
you are still there, chances are you are extremely wealthy
(02:08):
if you have held onto your stock. Obviously, there are
different decisions that employees have made about how to manage this,
but it's just been kind of an unexpected boom for
a lot of people who have worked there at a
company that for a long time was not like the
flashiest one in Silicon Valley.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
Yeah, and of course definitely flashy. Now, I definitely recommend
going to the article. There's looks like a photo that
was taken in an Nvidia parking garage of one of
those lime green luxury cars, and it was a really
interesting read to peek into the culture at Nvidia and
sort of the way that Jensen Wang approaches managing a company.
(02:44):
He doesn't like firing employees, for example, he prefers to
torture them into greatness. What does that mean, Ellen.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Well, first I just want to mention about the car.
Something special about it is that that's not like a
car color that you can get you at dealership. I
don't know where you buy luxury cars, but basically apparently
that car has been custom wrapped in that color. That's
the color. It's the sort of lime green that's in
Videa's color logo. So again something that a lot of
people might not recognize because like if you ask them, well,
(03:13):
what does the Nvidia logo look like?
Speaker 5 (03:16):
Video Green or is it Bratt Green?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
I feel like pretty close. Yeah, it's it's hot in
video summer. Yeah. But you know, to go back to
your question about company culture, you're totally right. Jensen Huong
is a really interesting kind of idiosyncratic CEO, someone who
has spoken really openly about not firing employees, not laying
them off during the big layoffs in the tech sector.
(03:41):
You know, a couple of years ago, he made a
big show of saying like, we're not going to be
cutting jobs. But that does not mean that it is
easy to work at in Video Apparently, according to people
who have worked there for a long time, people who
are currently working there, it's a really demanding work environment,
and maybe more so even than some of its competitors. Yeah,
has gone on and talked a lot about Yeah, torturing
(04:03):
his employees into greatness. He went on sixty minutes recently
and was talking about how, you know, he envisions working
Nvidia being the way in which a lot of employees
can do their life's work. And his take is that
shouldn't be easy. It should you know, if you're going
to do extraordinary things, that shouldn't be you know, that
should be effortful. That's something I think he stands by
(04:24):
as a stance and and employees feel that every day
at work, you know, long hours, many meetings, and in
particular that shows up because the way that in videos
organized is a pretty flat organizational structure. There are many,
many people who report directly to the CEO, and to
each of those people that are you know, dozens dozens
like you know, forty plus people might be reporting to
(04:45):
the same person. That creates kind of you know, the ideas,
it's sort of everyone's responsible for themselves, but it can
create a lot of organizational chaos that former employees were telling,
you know, our reporting team, that that contributes to stress
working every day at Nvidia.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
Ellen, I have a couple questions here.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
One, they do really like these employees, at least according
to ratings featured in the story from Glassdoor. They do
really like Jensen and working for him more so than
at peer companies. I'm wondering you're out there in Silicon Valley,
you speak to a lot of folks who work at
these big companies that have been high flying for years
Meta platforms, Apple, Amazon, and the like. Part of the
mag seven is what happens that in Nvidia culture wise
(05:26):
a lot different and how hard these employees work. Is
it a lot different than what happens at these other
tech companies.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
I think it's different maybe to a degree, but you know,
in the sense that it's pretty common for these companies
to demand a lot of work from them. But I
do think something changes in a company's culture when you
have this type of peak that in video is at,
where all of a sudden employees are really rich.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
I think we saw a decade ago kind of the
rise of Google millionaires, Facebook millionaires, and now we might
be seeing this sort of millionaires coming out, and I
think having that kind of wealth and especially wealth disparity
within the company, Like again, if you joined more recently,
you are not You're not banking the kind of money
that someone who joined ten years ago is. And this
(06:15):
sort of conflict came up even within Nvidia at an
internal meeting last year where employees ask, you know, what
do we do about some of our coworkers who feel
like they're just coasting because they've made so much money,
like they don't need to work anymore, but they don't
want to quit because the paycheck is too good, and
so I think part of what this story is getting
(06:35):
at is this brewing tension that might be coming up
at the company or inside the company related to the
fact that they've done so well. It's this after effect of,
you know, just making a lot of people wealthy, but
not everyone.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I believe Katie in the Silicon Valley Show on HBO,
they refer to that as resting investing.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
Yeah, so I haven't watched the show, but I appreciate
that you spelled out the reference for me. Otherwise I
would have just.
Speaker 7 (07:00):
Gone along with it.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
So there are even an Nvidia. Of course there's people
who are resting investing. It seems like I do appreciate
that this is a Bloomberg News story. So we do
have some data here to sort of back up how
Wang is perceived as a leader. If you take a
look at Glassdoor, his approval rating is ninety seven percent.
That's higher than his peers over at Alphabet, Apple, Meta,
(07:23):
and Amazon. But talk to us a little bit about
the reporting that went into this piece of talking to
some of those former employees. I believe in at least
two of these anecdotes, there was a lot of shouting
that was mentioned when it came to the many, many
meetings that it sounds like these employees have to sit
through every day.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Yeah, that was a bit of a motif. I think
sort of hot tempers, you know, sort of like aggressive
directness coming up in these meetings. Jensen also has this
famous policy within Nvidia in which people are asked to
email to the central email five things. It's like five things,
(08:01):
you know, every couple of weeks that are the most
important things they're working on, and you just you never
know if you might just get an email directly from
him asking you something about what you're working on. So
there is this sort of like you know, no gatekeepers,
this directness. You know, we have no time to be
like nice and soft with each other. We're going to
be focused on, you know, running the company as aggressively
as possible. So I think that's part of the culture.
(08:22):
Another interesting data point has to do with turnover at
the company. According to the company's own numbers, you know,
there are annual turnover in twenty twenty three with somewhere
around five percent and in or sorry, maybe that was
twenty twenty two, but basically this most recent number, it
dropped in dropped by half, so it's about two point
five percent, And I think you can look at those numbers,
and of course they don't say why people are sticking around.
(08:44):
But look, all if all of a sudden, your pay package,
because of its stock compensation, is worth you know, twenty
times more than you thought it was going to be,
that might be a good reason to stick around as well.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Uh yeah, I think a lot of people would argue
that they would stick around with a pay package such
as that. And the problem so more equity or shares investing. Ellen,
we should know that Nvidia did decline to comment for
this story. Before we let you go, I want to
shift gears a little bit and talk about a story
that you published late last week about the Find my
Friends feature on iPhones increasingly becoming popular, at least with
(09:16):
with my group of friends, especially with my family. Talk
a little bit about your experience using this service that
I think a few years ago many people would find
kind of invasive.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah, I mean, I am a big evangelist of Find
my Friends. I think it's just it's not only is
it convenient, it's just really fun. Like I probably have
about twenty people close friends of mine, my siblings who
share their locations with me, twenty four to seven, and
I do the same back to them. A lot of
us use apples find my app, but I also have
(09:46):
a few people who are Android users where I track
them on Google Maps, which is also pretty fun. And
I you know, obviously there are considerations that you should
take into account before you share your location with someone,
and I think, as I say in the piece, it's
a good additive to a high trust relationship, but it
could create awkwardness or even danger, you know, if you
(10:06):
share it with someone where that's not a good relationship.
But in general, I think what I find interesting about
it is just this evolution of our tech habits and
then the evolution of our expectations that come with it.
So all of a sudden, this thing that a few
years ago might have been like weird or invasive. I'm
just consistently hearing more people talk about how fun it is,
(10:26):
how nice it is to just you know, sometimes I
just look at my phone and see, oh, my friends are,
like at work, or like one of them's traveling, or
I just get to like peek in and see where
they are, and I think that's really sweet.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
So I have two comments on this. Both are about
my parents.
Speaker 8 (10:38):
One.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
My dad is reading nineteen eighty four right now, and
he keeps making the joke that we don't have to
worry about big brother watching us. We've actually invited them
into our homes and we put it on our body.
But the other point that I have to make is
about my mom. Actually, in the last year, she like
texted our family group chat and said, do you guys
want to do find my friends? And my response was
(10:59):
I'm thirty one, Like maybe when I was fifteen this
would have made sense, so I.
Speaker 6 (11:02):
Kind of want to say.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
So the answer was no to your mom, you don't
share your location with your mom.
Speaker 6 (11:06):
No, oh, I share mine with my mom?
Speaker 5 (11:08):
Well what does the appeal of that? And maybe Ellen,
I'll ask you, I mean, why do you need to
track your parents? Why do you need to track your friends,
for example, who I assume are also adults.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Yeah, I mean, I'll say. As with many tech habits,
you know, like having the internet on your phone, the
first pitch is convenience, right, Like this is how they
often start. It's like, oh, how convenient is it for
me to have my best friend's location? That means when
she's coming by to pick me up and we're going
to go out to dinner. She doesn't need to like
dangerously pull out her PHAM while driving and text me
like I'm a couple of minutes away. I can just
(11:40):
watch her dot. When she gets close, I'll step out
and I can meet her. And I think it starts
out convenient, and then it becomes kind of like I think,
if you know, a lot of stories have been written
about how gen Z has embraced location sharing, and I
think for them, they see it and I feel the
same way as almost a token of intimacy or connection
in a friendship, in this sense of like, oh, I
(12:01):
trust you to handle this this sensitive information with care.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yeah, there's a serious level of trust ups some friends
who a few years ago, I mean like eight years ago,
shared their location with me for a wedding and forgot.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Now I know where they are.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
I don't even text my friend's back.
Speaker 6 (12:16):
A big thank you to Ellen Hewitt out there in
San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
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Speaker 6 (12:27):
Car Play and then Bright Auto with.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
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Speaker 3 (12:34):
Bowling's newly installed CEO, Kelly Ordberg, faces a dilemma that
pits its national duty against strained cash reserves. This after
a humiliating setback over the weekend. This was when NASA
announced that they would not be sending astronauts home from
the space station on the faulty spacecraft. Here's NASA Administrator
Bill Nelson on Saturday.
Speaker 9 (12:54):
Spaceflight is risky, even at it's safe to safest and
even at its most routine, and a test flight, by
nature is neither safe nor routine. And so the decision
(13:16):
to keep Butch and Sunny aboard the International Space Station
and bring the Boeing star Liner home UNCREWEDE is the
result of a commitment to safety.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That was NASA Administrator Bill Nelson on Saturday talking about
the Starliner returning empty without those astronauts who are board
the International Space Station. This is just one embarrassing moment
of many for Boeing during an.
Speaker 6 (13:40):
Epically bad year.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It's included that near catastrophic blowout of an airborne seven
thirty seven Max jetliner that was in January, federal investigations
and the executive suite shakeup. Boeing's execs now must face
thorny questions about the company's commitment to human spaceflight and
to Starliner. We've got with us Julie Johnson, Bloomberg News
senior aerospace reporter. She joins us from Chicago. Julie, I
(14:03):
just want to start to bring everyone up to speed
with what happened to Starliner, why those astronauts found themselves
stuck aboard the International Space Station, and then we'll get
to where going Boeing goes from here.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Okay, fair enough, though honestly, we should have Lauren Grush
on this call for really informed I.
Speaker 6 (14:21):
Think I think she's getting ready for tomorrow's launch.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Okay, yeah, I'll give you a semi informed discussion. So
this all gets back to what are known as reaction
control system thrusters, and they're little motors or engines that
help position the spacecraft Starliner in orbit, and there have
(14:46):
been now on two consecutive missions, there have been glitchy
problems with these thrusters on the what's known as the
service module. This is the part of the vehicle that
will burn up in space. This is not the capsule itself,
but it helps it's all part of the propulsion system.
(15:08):
So anyway, as you know, back in June, as Starliner
was coming in to dock with the ISS, five of
these thrusters failed, and NASA and Boeing eventually were able
to get four of them back unstuck and working together again,
and and the docking went ahead and the astronauts went
(15:31):
on board. That launched some furious studying at NASA and
Boeing into what was going on. And I think Boeing
feels confident that they've isolated the problem. NASA was not
as as confident. And and by the way, you know,
post Challenger, post Columbia, NASA is really emphasizing safety, and
(15:55):
I think that you know, there they don't want to
take any unnecessary especially when they're humans involved. So even
though twenty seven out of the twenty eight thrusters on
the service module eventually we're working, I think NASA just
doesn't feel comfortable, you know, that one of them wouldn't
(16:15):
fail again, and made this really difficult decision.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
Julie.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Now to the future of the space program at Boeing.
The Starliner that you speak of many many years delayed,
many dollars in cost overruns. If we look at where
Boeing gets its revenue, about thirty two percent of its
revenue in twenty twenty three comes from defense, space and security.
How important is space to Boeing's future under Kelly Orkberg
(16:45):
moving forward?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Oh man, that's the that's the big question. And we
just don't know right now what his thinking is. It's
early days and he's going to take some months now
to evaluate everything. But I meaning is such a proud
space company, space pioneer. You know, they were instrumental. If
you're Tim, I know you're an av geek uh and
(17:10):
an aerospace aerospace nut as am I. But you know Boeing.
Boeing was rescued the Saturn rocket program back in the sixties.
It almost bankrupted the company. They were a key player
with the Space Shuttle program. You know, they're at the
primary contractor on the International Space Station. So they've got
this really proud legacy. But then you know SpaceX has
(17:34):
come in and just totally revolutionize the business, and for
whatever complex reasons, you know, Boeing has not been able
to keep pace or to meet the obligations that it
has right now with Starliner. So you've got a new
guy coming in. He's got a mandate to look at
(17:54):
everything and it's not a given, uh that you know
that the company would continue with Starline, according to the
analysts that I've talked to. And what was interesting to me,
Bill Nelson on Saturday said, Hey, Ortberg assured me that,
you know, Boeing's in basically, but we didn't see a strong,
(18:18):
you know, a matching statement from Boeing. And again, I
just think every you know, part of it is they
don't know the next steps beyond star Liner coming to
Earth in September.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Well, Julie to that point, I mean, this question has
been asked for a while now, and it predates, of course,
Kelly Ortberg. You have in your story that late last year,
chief financial officer Brian West told a small gathering of
investors of the company had a decision to make about
future investment in the program. So I guess the question
I have for you is what kind of timeline do
(18:52):
they have to make that decision? Because I have to
imagine this is a very expensive waiting period.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah it is, it is, but I really think, I mean,
there's so many unknowns right now. If Starliner performs lawlessly
when it flies back without humans in September, then this
becomes really you know, complicated for Boeing and for NASA,
I mean, CANASA. It feels like the thrust issue needs
(19:21):
to be resolved and with no you know, maybe needs
to be redesigned. But I don't, you know, can NASA
certify this vehicle without another test flight, which, by the way,
is that that's another half a billion out you know,
out of Boeing's pocket, uh for you know, for a
test flight. So so the decisions are going to stack up,
(19:44):
but I don't think anything will be you know, will
be made imminently. And the other thing is that if
Boeing's able to get its commercial factories going, you know,
airplanes rolling out the door, then its finances get better
and it's got more cushion, you know, to make these
(20:05):
thorny decisions around you know, national interests and duty and honor.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Well, Julie, we only have like ten seconds left. But
if you were to rank Kelly Ortberg's five biggest five priorities,
would figuring out the future of space at Boeing even
be in the top five?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
No?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, so that's some incredible context there. Julie Johnson, Hey,
we always love it when you join us. Everybody check
out Julie's story on the Bloomberg terminal. Julie's Bloomberg News
senior aerospace reporter, joining us from Chicago.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live
each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on applecar Play
and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can
also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New
York station. Just say Alexa Play. Bloomberg eleven thirty construction is.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
A new way in Wyoming for a new nuclear power
plant that Bill Gates hopes will revolutionize how power is generated.
It's going to use sodium instead of water.
Speaker 6 (21:03):
For cooling in the plant.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
The plant that is expected to cost up to four
billion dollars. It comes after Georgia just built two new
nuclear reactors. As the country that's US, US reconsiders nuclear
power as a way to create green energy. We've got
back with us. Maria Korsnik, president and CEO of the
Nuclear Energy Institute. She joins us from Washington, DC.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
Maria, how are you.
Speaker 7 (21:27):
I'm doing well. Thanks, happy to be back.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Well, it's good to have you back with us. I'm
wondering how you're looking at the landscape right now. We
do have the pleasure of checking with you every few
months and getting an understanding of how you're viewing the
landscape is sort of on the side that represents the
nuclear power industry. Do you think that the appetite just
(21:50):
in the last few months has increased for nuclear power?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I do?
Speaker 7 (21:56):
I mean demand, demand, demand, right, Look at all those
different and forecasts that have come out between AI and
machine learning, as well as the electricity that's just needed
to transition manufacturing and unsure that. So a lot of
new players sitting at the table with us, a lot
of those tech companies, a lot of those chemical companies.
(22:18):
It's a very exciting time in nuclear and.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
It's interesting to think about sort of the demographic demographical.
I hope that's a word perspectives of nuclear, because nuclear
for a lot of people is an off putting word.
But you highlighted some recent reporting from our colleagues over
at the Wall Street Journal that when it comes to
gen Z voters, perhaps there's a bit more of an
embrace of nuclear there than compared to say some of
(22:43):
the older demographics.
Speaker 7 (22:45):
Absolutely, I think the survey that you're referring to set
four out of five of the gen Zers support more
nuclear power, and you know, like nuclear is cool again,
right to some of these, to some of these vote,
and I think it's a wonderful opportunity to really rebrands
nuclear in terms of what does it bring. It brings
(23:07):
that round the clock, very clean, highly reliable energy, and
it's at a time when people are really focused on
climate and they're focused on energy security, and nuclear brings both.
Speaker 9 (23:20):
Well.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I'm going to go where we always go with you,
which is where the mistakes were made over the last
thirty or forty years when it comes to the US
nuclear industry. I know this isn't about looking backward, but
we find ourselves in a place where we have closed
many nuclear power plants in the US. You see in
Europe too, a movement away in some countries that I
(23:41):
think some countries it's fair to say regret when it
comes to nuclear energy. How did we get to where
we are? And do we ever get back to a
place where we have the appetite for the actual amount
of money that needs to be invested to build these things?
Speaker 7 (23:55):
Yeah, I absolutely think we do. When you say, you know,
how did we get where we are? I can speak
the United States think back ten fifteen years, and you know,
we had really low prices of natural gas, you had
high incentives on wind and solar, and you know, we
were really pushing nuclear out of the marketplace. And I
think what you look at today is really strong demand,
(24:18):
high attention on carbon free and the need for energy security.
And it's not just happening here in the United States.
I've traveled around the world where they've shut them down,
they're talking about Wait a minute, was that a good decision?
Where they haven't shut them down, but they thought about
shutting them down, They've changed their mind. France is a
great example. Maybe U turn said nope, we're not shutting
(24:38):
them down. In fact, we're going to build more. And
I was just in Finland and Sweden and they're talking
about the same thing, let's have more nuclear.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Do you think if do you think it was a
reaction to Three Mile Island Chernobyl Fukushima as to why
a lot of the world decided to move away from nuclear.
Speaker 7 (24:59):
Not so much in the United States, I'll be honest,
But elsewhere in the world. I do think that Fukushima
had an impact and had an effect. In fact, let's
just talk about that for a minute. Japan's talking about
restarting plants. In fact, has restarted plants, and they're talking
about building more. So you know, if the country that
(25:19):
had the challenge is also talking about moving forward, that
should really mean something to us. That means that on balance,
really looking at this understanding what's being brought to the
marketplace and to the people that clean energy, highly reliable,
it really matters, and that's where nuclear is well.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
Looking forward, Maria, I mean, let's assume that that survey
that we were talking about, the fact that the majority
of gen Z voters really does support nuclear. How long
the timeline are we talking about those shut down plants
that Tim and you were referencing. I mean, is it
as easy as flipping a switch? What does it actually
(25:59):
look like to start to rely on nuclear again?
Speaker 7 (26:04):
So let's talk about the nuclear we have today. Right,
we have ninety four beautiful plants operating today producing almost
twenty percent of the energy here in the United States.
And as we go forward, there's some things that are
very close to coming on. Those are microreactors and you're
going to be hearing about them in the next few years,
and then after that the small modular reactors as well.
(26:27):
So think about that in the end of the twenties
into the early twenty thirties, so very close. Sometimes people
think new nuclear is really far away. It's not. Those
first of all kinds are going to come over here
in the next you know, five to seven years. And
think about those two plants that were just built in Georgia,
the AP one thousands. Well we built two, and we're
ready to build more, and so that technology is already
(26:50):
ready to get going.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
We built those on but those were years behind schedule
and many many dollars over budget. We should note, Maria.
When it comes to the next gen nuclear reactors, I'm
curious if any of the technology thus far, when it
comes to small modular reactors, for example, has that been
(27:12):
proven to work yet anywhere?
Speaker 7 (27:15):
So the technology, the thing that makes it work, there's
really not a lot of new there. In other words,
some of these things, in fact, we built back in
the nineteen sixties. What we're doing now is we're taking
that technology and we're applying it and bringing new things
to the marketplace. And so I think the real guest
isn't is it going to work or not? It's oh, yeah,
(27:38):
it's going to work. And now what can we learn
about how efficiently can we build it? How you know,
each each technology is going to have, you know, a
little bit of a learning curve to sort of better
understand it. But these are wonderful opportunities to be brought
to the marketplace.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
Well, it feels like energy needs have once again entered
into broader conversation because we talk about energy demand in
the context of AI all the time. Now, I mean,
you think about how much just energy AI needs, especially
some of these data centers. I mean, do you see
an opportunity for the nuclear industry to seize on this moment?
Speaker 7 (28:18):
Absolutely? In fact, we're having those conversations now. We're having
conversations with the data centers, right We're having conversations with
large chemical companies. You know, we're having conversations with folks
that were saying, how are we going to get that
clean energy of the future, because you know, those companies
they want to brag about the fact that their product
was made clean, right, Well, you need clean energy in
(28:40):
order to have those bragging rights. So it's important to them.
They want to position themselves for the future. But they
want it not all I mean, they want it all
the time. Highly reliable seven twenty four and so yep,
there's other technologies, but they need to be paired with
that backbone of highly reliable, carbon free energy, and that's
what nuclear brand to the conversation.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
All right, what about when it comes great opportunity, Maria,
what about when it comes to waste? What is the
solution for nuclear waste? It seems like nobody wants it.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
You know, I'm gonna tell you, and I hope you're
going to bring me on at some point in the
future and we'll say, you know, I told you that
that nuclear waste was going to be a good thing.
The nuclear waste that we have today in the future,
I think it has opportunities to be used. In the meantime,
let's start really safe. We do that. I just came
back from Finland a couple of weeks ago. They just
put into commission. They're deep geologic repository. There's nothing magic
(29:33):
about that. There's no reason that the United States can't
do the same thing, and I'm sure we will.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
Okay, where should we do it in the US?
Speaker 7 (29:41):
Well, we're going to use a consent process, so we'll
be asking different folks in fact, who wants it? And
so how about this would be nice to be fought over,
wouldn't it? Who wants to have the nuclear waste? Who
wants to have that as part of their business function?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Let's get there.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
Well, Tim, you have a backyard, don't you.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
Ye, you could put it in there.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah, thanks, Katie, that's a great idea. Yeah, definitely, maybe
we could keep it out at the bar and where
your horses.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
That's true, another good suggestion. Yeah, yeah, well we'll noodle
on it. But definitely have to have a Maria on
for that. I told you so a moment.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Oh yeah, Maria, looking forward to that. We ask you
the question every time about nuclear waste, and I do.
I think it's fair to say, hope we all get
to a point where we can figure out the right
thing to do with nuclear waste and maybe get to
a point where, like you say, businesses are fighting over it.
That's Maria Korsnik, president and CEO at the Nuclear Energy Institute,
(30:33):
joining us from Washington, d C.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Brother Marc.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
A journal How about you let me drive?
Speaker 10 (30:44):
Oh no, no, no, no, all right, please, I'll I want to.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
It's a good question. This is the Drive the Clothes
on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
It is Bloomberg Business Week Live in the Bloomberg Interactive
Broker's studio TikTok, less than twenty minutes to go to
the close of trading on this uh sleepy Monday.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
I don't know you taking the markets. Volumes are down,
but there's definitely a lot of movement there to the downside.
Definitely not the happy, the happy story we were telling you.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah, but you mega caps that are moving lower because
you got turn in seventy five stocks in the S
and p FI.
Speaker 5 (31:31):
It doesn't that feel important if the stock market's biggest
companies are moving to the downside.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
Oh it does.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
It does feel important. Let's see what Dave Harden has
to say about all this. He's founder and a chief
investment officer over at Summit Global Investments. He's one of
the few people who's not on vacation. Although maybe you
are on vacation. You're visiting us from Utah.
Speaker 8 (31:48):
Well it's not always a vacation in New York. But
let's face it, today's weather's pretty good, so I.
Speaker 6 (31:52):
Don't know, we haven't. They don't allow it's outside.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
So I did, and then you know.
Speaker 6 (31:58):
I felt, I felt the mother's I'm just kidding. They
do let us outside.
Speaker 10 (32:02):
They do the food inside is nice too.
Speaker 6 (32:04):
The food inside is good. Here we don't have to
go outside.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
How does this how does market post Jackson Hole? That
does the macro environment feel to you?
Speaker 8 (32:14):
Well, let's clearly say there was a couple comments there
in Jackson Hole that were important, and they were important
because it said that they are going to change policy.
And now twenty five points is a foregone conclusion, like
that's going to happen, right. I think the markets have
baked that in by now, So now it's what do
they do next?
Speaker 10 (32:31):
Are they going to do?
Speaker 6 (32:32):
Three?
Speaker 8 (32:32):
Is one of them going to be a fifty basis points?
So I think the markets are in a wait and see.
And the thing that's interesting is September labor market numbers
every year, especially around elections. For whatever reason, October has
the highest revisions. So I don't really put a lot
of faith on the numbers because they're going to get revision, revised,
(32:55):
deeply revised, more than anything else throughout the year.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Yeah, it feels like quality of the day has come
into question, especially when it comes to the BLS. A
lot of snaff who's there, and then that revision last week.
I mean, I'm really curious to hear how you're factoring
that in.
Speaker 8 (33:10):
Well, I think you know, like most people, the reality
is is that the data bad news means that cuts
are coming, right, and good news is well good. So
right now we're kind of in a bad news is
good because that means the FEDS puts on the line
and it's going to happen, and good news is good.
So even though we're down today, which is not always easy,
(33:30):
I think the markets crawl higher for the next couple months,
just in choppy trading.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
There was a bad news is bad just a few
weeks ago when we got those.
Speaker 6 (33:38):
July jobs numbers. Yeah, for sure, was that a one off? Well,
I think in terms of labor market weakness, I.
Speaker 8 (33:45):
Think in the sense that the Fed hadn't come out
and said what they said. So post Jackson Hole, now
bad news is okay. Yeah, the FEDS puts there, So
I think before that it was bad. We didn't know
what they're going to do. In fact, can you remember
back two or three weeks ago when I was on
there with you that it was we've got to have
an emergency rate cut, and now we've been to well,
(34:05):
we're going.
Speaker 10 (34:06):
To have a rate cut.
Speaker 6 (34:07):
Wasn't that crazy. It was a few weeks ago.
Speaker 5 (34:09):
Yeah, and wasn't. I mean, there's still a lot of
crazy talk going around. I think it was Keilly Lines
who was telling us that Elizabeth Warren was saying that
the FED should cut by seventy five.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
Basically she's been saying two years at this point.
Speaker 10 (34:22):
I know, talk about it.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Our whole thing is because of housing and right, you know,
mortgage rates.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Well for sure, but if you cut rates, I mean,
then you have a lot of pent up demand on
the other side when it comes to the housing market.
But even still, I mean, I'm curious to hear your
view because Elizabeth.
Speaker 7 (34:36):
Wore on a side.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Kathy Jones, for example, from Charles Schwab has made the
case that the FED should go fifty in September. That
you think about where rates are right now, north of
five percent, that's way too restrictive relative to the economic reality.
I'm curious your view on what the Fed should do
in September twenty five or fifty and what you think
(34:58):
they actually will deliver.
Speaker 10 (34:59):
It's a great question.
Speaker 8 (35:00):
I think should do is really here's the key. We've
had numbers like unemployment and like the inverted yield curve
point towards recession for thirty straight years, and each time
this has happened, the FED had an opportunity to do
act and wasn't able to prevent a recession. So what
is this FED going to do differently than the past
thirty to forty five years. Very smart people were there,
(35:22):
and yet they weren't able to stop it. So the
data says, hey, there's a recession on the line.
Speaker 10 (35:28):
What are they going to do?
Speaker 8 (35:29):
I think they should cut fifty But the reality is,
I don't think this FED is aggressive, and so they've
always been patient. They've always been a little bit behind
the curve, and so I think they're going to be patient.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
When do we get to a point where we don't
have to ask you or market observers whether or not
we're in a recession? The data becomes so clear that
we are in a recession.
Speaker 8 (35:49):
Well, you know, I'm hoping against history here, But the
reality is is that I hope that there's not one.
I don't feel like we're in one right now, and
so it would have to be you would see the
labor numbers continue to, you know, spiral down. You'd have
to see I think other numbers come out.
Speaker 6 (36:05):
Like a jobs report that shows instead of additions.
Speaker 8 (36:08):
Yeah, and I think you're going to have to see
more layoffs in the market, really company signaling there's problems,
and right now earnings and guidances are all fairly good.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
Yeah, I will say I find the idea of a
rolling recession pretty compelling because overall it seems like by
on broad metrics, the economy is held up. But then,
you know, I talked to some of my friends who
were working in startups last summer that space definitely seemed
like it was in a bit of a recession. But
I guess I'm wondering how you structure a portfolio around that,
(36:38):
because you mentioned that bad news is good news and
good news is kind of good news. I mean, is
that a green light for risk assets?
Speaker 10 (36:45):
Not really.
Speaker 8 (36:46):
I think you have to be picky to have a
recession proof portfolio. You need to manage your risk. So think,
for example, what does well in both environments if we
have a recession and even coming out of recession. So
for me today, for example, I'll.
Speaker 10 (36:59):
Look at healthcare. Healthcare to me is the new utility.
Speaker 8 (37:02):
Right. You take a look at somebody that's taking some drugs.
They've lost twenty thirty pounds, or they've maybe reduced their
diabetes medication. Are they coming off those drugs? The answer
is not on your life, right, if the power goes out,
you're gonna learn to deal with it. But if you
drop your phone, if you can't take that drug, you're
gonna go get a new phone today. You're gonna go
see a different doctor today. So to me, healthcare has done.
Speaker 10 (37:23):
Very very well.
Speaker 8 (37:24):
It's up over eighteen percent month to day. But if
you look at does it still have legs to run?
Speaker 10 (37:29):
Absolutely?
Speaker 8 (37:30):
Eli Lilly just raised their guidance. They have fantastic earnings.
So to me, I think you have to manage risk
with individual holdings. You have to stay diversified and look
for those companies that are going to survive regardless what
the FED does.
Speaker 6 (37:41):
Dave, where do you not want to be right now?
Speaker 10 (37:43):
I think you got to be careful with some of
the AI names.
Speaker 8 (37:46):
Now we know that video and video, we know they're
kinding to come out, and I think they're going to
do great.
Speaker 10 (37:51):
Can they do good enough?
Speaker 8 (37:53):
I mean, everybody wants them to blow it out of
the water so that this market can just you know,
hang their hat on that and continue. But the reality
is is they've got some issues they have to solve
across the whole spectrum. So I'd be really cautious if
you're going to invest in tech, look still look for
high free cash flow, look for still high quality earnings.
Look for something that if AI doesn't pan out, you
still have a real, big, large, great company working for you.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Right.
Speaker 10 (38:16):
So for like, Microsoft is a great example.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
That's really interesting. And I actually want to go back
to your point on healthcare and having to be picky there,
because I was actually looking at shares of United Health
for whatever reason earlier today and they're close to an
all time high. But then you take a look at
you know, some of the worst performance on the S
and P five hundred, do you have dex com in
there for example, sort of one of the flip side
(38:39):
of the GLP one trade. I mean, just thirty seconds
that due diligence, It sounds like you're doing that on
a company by company level when you're taking a look
at that sector.
Speaker 8 (38:49):
You have to, but your due diligence has to be
kind of on its head. Don't look for companies that
are just going to go crazy to the upside, right
because that's not the market we're in. We're not at
the throw the dart market. We're at the market where
you have to look at the downside.
Speaker 10 (39:01):
So look at the risk. Turn over more walks.
Speaker 8 (39:03):
If you're gonna expect the boats, yes the title, raise
them all. Look for the holes in the boats, don't
use those ones.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
Dave appreciate you joining us.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Dave Harden, founder and CIO over at Summit Global Investments,
joining us here.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
This is the Bloomberg Business Week podcast, available on Apple, Spotify,
and anywhere else you get your podcast. Listen live weekday
afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com,
the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business app.
You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube
and always on the Bloomberg journalone
Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio news. This is Bloomberg Business
Wait inside from the reporters and editors who bring you
America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and
tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week podcast with Carol Messer
(00:23):
and Tim Stenebek from Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 2 (00:27):
Well.
Speaker 3 (00:27):
As I mentioned, it is the most read story today
on the Bloomberg Terminal. It's about a place in Santa Clara, California,
where Porsche's corvettes and Lamborghini's take up the parking spaces.
It's the parking lot of a company whose stock is
up more than thirty seven hundred percent since the beginning
of twenty nineteen. The company has piled on market cap
faster than any other in history. So it's made a
(00:47):
lot of people who work there pretty wealthy. We're talking
vacation homes, the Super Bowl, those vehicles, NBA Finals. They
also work a lot. If you haven't guessed it already,
we're talking about Nvidia. It's a place where people work hard.
In fact, the hours are grueling, in high stress, current
informer employees say, leaving little time for the jet setting,
home buying and leisure. Many can now afford. A culture
(01:10):
problem is brewing, said the people, who ask not to
be identified for fear of retribution. Ellen Hewett is Bloomberg
News tech features writer, and she contributed to the story,
which I'm mentioned is the most read on the Bloomberg terminal.
Ellen joins us from San Francisco. So, Ellen, what is
it like to work at Nvidia?
Speaker 4 (01:27):
Well, I think it's been quite a ride for Nvidia employees,
especially those who have been there for more than just
a few years. Keep in mind, this company is decades old.
It's been around for a really long time, and it's
one of those companies that you know, unless you were
really imaged in Silicon Valley, you might not know it,
or you might even mispronounce its name, obviously, until the
(01:47):
last couple of years when you know the stock price
ends sort of. The AI boom has made Nvidia a
household name. And so if you are an employee who
only started working there recently, maybe your life is about normal.
But if you've been there, maybe five ten years, and
you are still there, chances are you are extremely wealthy
(02:08):
if you have held onto your stock. Obviously, there are
different decisions that employees have made about how to manage this,
but it's just been kind of an unexpected boom for
a lot of people who have worked there at a
company that for a long time was not like the
flashiest one in Silicon Valley.
Speaker 5 (02:22):
Yeah, and of course definitely flashy. Now, I definitely recommend
going to the article. There's looks like a photo that
was taken in an Nvidia parking garage of one of
those lime green luxury cars, and it was a really
interesting read to peek into the culture at Nvidia and
sort of the way that Jensen Wang approaches managing a company.
(02:44):
He doesn't like firing employees, for example, he prefers to
torture them into greatness. What does that mean, Ellen.
Speaker 4 (02:52):
Well, first I just want to mention about the car.
Something special about it is that that's not like a
car color that you can get you at dealership. I
don't know where you buy luxury cars, but basically apparently
that car has been custom wrapped in that color. That's
the color. It's the sort of lime green that's in
Videa's color logo. So again something that a lot of
people might not recognize because like if you ask them, well,
(03:13):
what does the Nvidia logo look like?
Speaker 5 (03:16):
Video Green or is it Bratt Green?
Speaker 4 (03:17):
I feel like pretty close. Yeah, it's it's hot in
video summer. Yeah. But you know, to go back to
your question about company culture, you're totally right. Jensen Huong
is a really interesting kind of idiosyncratic CEO, someone who
has spoken really openly about not firing employees, not laying
them off during the big layoffs in the tech sector.
(03:41):
You know, a couple of years ago, he made a
big show of saying like, we're not going to be
cutting jobs. But that does not mean that it is
easy to work at in Video Apparently, according to people
who have worked there for a long time, people who
are currently working there, it's a really demanding work environment,
and maybe more so even than some of its competitors. Yeah,
has gone on and talked a lot about Yeah, torturing
(04:03):
his employees into greatness. He went on sixty minutes recently
and was talking about how, you know, he envisions working
Nvidia being the way in which a lot of employees
can do their life's work. And his take is that
shouldn't be easy. It should you know, if you're going
to do extraordinary things, that shouldn't be you know, that
should be effortful. That's something I think he stands by
(04:24):
as a stance and and employees feel that every day
at work, you know, long hours, many meetings, and in
particular that shows up because the way that in videos
organized is a pretty flat organizational structure. There are many,
many people who report directly to the CEO, and to
each of those people that are you know, dozens dozens
like you know, forty plus people might be reporting to
(04:45):
the same person. That creates kind of you know, the ideas,
it's sort of everyone's responsible for themselves, but it can
create a lot of organizational chaos that former employees were telling,
you know, our reporting team, that that contributes to stress
working every day at Nvidia.
Speaker 6 (05:02):
Ellen, I have a couple questions here.
Speaker 3 (05:03):
One, they do really like these employees, at least according
to ratings featured in the story from Glassdoor. They do
really like Jensen and working for him more so than
at peer companies. I'm wondering you're out there in Silicon Valley,
you speak to a lot of folks who work at
these big companies that have been high flying for years
Meta platforms, Apple, Amazon, and the like. Part of the
mag seven is what happens that in Nvidia culture wise
(05:26):
a lot different and how hard these employees work. Is
it a lot different than what happens at these other
tech companies.
Speaker 4 (05:32):
I think it's different maybe to a degree, but you know,
in the sense that it's pretty common for these companies
to demand a lot of work from them. But I
do think something changes in a company's culture when you
have this type of peak that in video is at,
where all of a sudden employees are really rich.
Speaker 6 (05:51):
You know.
Speaker 4 (05:51):
I think we saw a decade ago kind of the
rise of Google millionaires, Facebook millionaires, and now we might
be seeing this sort of millionaires coming out, and I
think having that kind of wealth and especially wealth disparity
within the company, Like again, if you joined more recently,
you are not You're not banking the kind of money
that someone who joined ten years ago is. And this
(06:15):
sort of conflict came up even within Nvidia at an
internal meeting last year where employees ask, you know, what
do we do about some of our coworkers who feel
like they're just coasting because they've made so much money,
like they don't need to work anymore, but they don't
want to quit because the paycheck is too good, and
so I think part of what this story is getting
(06:35):
at is this brewing tension that might be coming up
at the company or inside the company related to the
fact that they've done so well. It's this after effect of,
you know, just making a lot of people wealthy, but
not everyone.
Speaker 3 (06:50):
I believe Katie in the Silicon Valley Show on HBO,
they refer to that as resting investing.
Speaker 5 (06:55):
Yeah, so I haven't watched the show, but I appreciate
that you spelled out the reference for me. Otherwise I
would have just.
Speaker 7 (07:00):
Gone along with it.
Speaker 5 (07:01):
So there are even an Nvidia. Of course there's people
who are resting investing. It seems like I do appreciate
that this is a Bloomberg News story. So we do
have some data here to sort of back up how
Wang is perceived as a leader. If you take a
look at Glassdoor, his approval rating is ninety seven percent.
That's higher than his peers over at Alphabet, Apple, Meta,
(07:23):
and Amazon. But talk to us a little bit about
the reporting that went into this piece of talking to
some of those former employees. I believe in at least
two of these anecdotes, there was a lot of shouting
that was mentioned when it came to the many, many
meetings that it sounds like these employees have to sit
through every day.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
Yeah, that was a bit of a motif. I think
sort of hot tempers, you know, sort of like aggressive
directness coming up in these meetings. Jensen also has this
famous policy within Nvidia in which people are asked to
email to the central email five things. It's like five things,
(08:01):
you know, every couple of weeks that are the most
important things they're working on, and you just you never
know if you might just get an email directly from
him asking you something about what you're working on. So
there is this sort of like you know, no gatekeepers,
this directness. You know, we have no time to be
like nice and soft with each other. We're going to
be focused on, you know, running the company as aggressively
as possible. So I think that's part of the culture.
(08:22):
Another interesting data point has to do with turnover at
the company. According to the company's own numbers, you know,
there are annual turnover in twenty twenty three with somewhere
around five percent and in or sorry, maybe that was
twenty twenty two, but basically this most recent number, it
dropped in dropped by half, so it's about two point
five percent, And I think you can look at those numbers,
and of course they don't say why people are sticking around.
(08:44):
But look, all if all of a sudden, your pay package,
because of its stock compensation, is worth you know, twenty
times more than you thought it was going to be,
that might be a good reason to stick around as well.
Speaker 3 (08:55):
Uh yeah, I think a lot of people would argue
that they would stick around with a pay package such
as that. And the problem so more equity or shares investing. Ellen,
we should know that Nvidia did decline to comment for
this story. Before we let you go, I want to
shift gears a little bit and talk about a story
that you published late last week about the Find my
Friends feature on iPhones increasingly becoming popular, at least with
(09:16):
with my group of friends, especially with my family. Talk
a little bit about your experience using this service that
I think a few years ago many people would find
kind of invasive.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
Yeah, I mean, I am a big evangelist of Find
my Friends. I think it's just it's not only is
it convenient, it's just really fun. Like I probably have
about twenty people close friends of mine, my siblings who
share their locations with me, twenty four to seven, and
I do the same back to them. A lot of
us use apples find my app, but I also have
(09:46):
a few people who are Android users where I track
them on Google Maps, which is also pretty fun. And
I you know, obviously there are considerations that you should
take into account before you share your location with someone,
and I think, as I say in the piece, it's
a good additive to a high trust relationship, but it
could create awkwardness or even danger, you know, if you
(10:06):
share it with someone where that's not a good relationship.
But in general, I think what I find interesting about
it is just this evolution of our tech habits and
then the evolution of our expectations that come with it.
So all of a sudden, this thing that a few
years ago might have been like weird or invasive. I'm
just consistently hearing more people talk about how fun it is,
(10:26):
how nice it is to just you know, sometimes I
just look at my phone and see, oh, my friends are,
like at work, or like one of them's traveling, or
I just get to like peek in and see where
they are, and I think that's really sweet.
Speaker 5 (10:36):
So I have two comments on this. Both are about
my parents.
Speaker 8 (10:38):
One.
Speaker 5 (10:38):
My dad is reading nineteen eighty four right now, and
he keeps making the joke that we don't have to
worry about big brother watching us. We've actually invited them
into our homes and we put it on our body.
But the other point that I have to make is
about my mom. Actually, in the last year, she like
texted our family group chat and said, do you guys
want to do find my friends? And my response was
(10:59):
I'm thirty one, Like maybe when I was fifteen this
would have made sense, so I.
Speaker 6 (11:02):
Kind of want to say.
Speaker 3 (11:03):
So the answer was no to your mom, you don't
share your location with your mom.
Speaker 6 (11:06):
No, oh, I share mine with my mom?
Speaker 5 (11:08):
Well what does the appeal of that? And maybe Ellen,
I'll ask you, I mean, why do you need to
track your parents? Why do you need to track your friends,
for example, who I assume are also adults.
Speaker 4 (11:20):
Yeah, I mean, I'll say. As with many tech habits,
you know, like having the internet on your phone, the
first pitch is convenience, right, Like this is how they
often start. It's like, oh, how convenient is it for
me to have my best friend's location? That means when
she's coming by to pick me up and we're going
to go out to dinner. She doesn't need to like
dangerously pull out her PHAM while driving and text me
like I'm a couple of minutes away. I can just
(11:40):
watch her dot. When she gets close, I'll step out
and I can meet her. And I think it starts
out convenient, and then it becomes kind of like I think,
if you know, a lot of stories have been written
about how gen Z has embraced location sharing, and I
think for them, they see it and I feel the
same way as almost a token of intimacy or connection
in a friendship, in this sense of like, oh, I
(12:01):
trust you to handle this this sensitive information with care.
Speaker 3 (12:08):
Yeah, there's a serious level of trust ups some friends
who a few years ago, I mean like eight years ago,
shared their location with me for a wedding and forgot.
Speaker 6 (12:14):
Now I know where they are.
Speaker 5 (12:15):
I don't even text my friend's back.
Speaker 6 (12:16):
A big thank you to Ellen Hewitt out there in
San Francisco.
Speaker 1 (12:20):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us
live weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter Listen
on Apple.
Speaker 6 (12:27):
Car Play and then Bright Auto with.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
A Bloomberg Business act or watch us live on YouTube.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
Bowling's newly installed CEO, Kelly Ordberg, faces a dilemma that
pits its national duty against strained cash reserves. This after
a humiliating setback over the weekend. This was when NASA
announced that they would not be sending astronauts home from
the space station on the faulty spacecraft. Here's NASA Administrator
Bill Nelson on Saturday.
Speaker 9 (12:54):
Spaceflight is risky, even at it's safe to safest and
even at its most routine, and a test flight, by
nature is neither safe nor routine. And so the decision
(13:16):
to keep Butch and Sunny aboard the International Space Station
and bring the Boeing star Liner home UNCREWEDE is the
result of a commitment to safety.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That was NASA Administrator Bill Nelson on Saturday talking about
the Starliner returning empty without those astronauts who are board
the International Space Station. This is just one embarrassing moment
of many for Boeing during an.
Speaker 6 (13:40):
Epically bad year.
Speaker 3 (13:42):
It's included that near catastrophic blowout of an airborne seven
thirty seven Max jetliner that was in January, federal investigations
and the executive suite shakeup. Boeing's execs now must face
thorny questions about the company's commitment to human spaceflight and
to Starliner. We've got with us Julie Johnson, Bloomberg News
senior aerospace reporter. She joins us from Chicago. Julie, I
(14:03):
just want to start to bring everyone up to speed
with what happened to Starliner, why those astronauts found themselves
stuck aboard the International Space Station, and then we'll get
to where going Boeing goes from here.
Speaker 2 (14:14):
Okay, fair enough, though honestly, we should have Lauren Grush
on this call for really informed I.
Speaker 6 (14:21):
Think I think she's getting ready for tomorrow's launch.
Speaker 2 (14:25):
Okay, yeah, I'll give you a semi informed discussion. So
this all gets back to what are known as reaction
control system thrusters, and they're little motors or engines that
help position the spacecraft Starliner in orbit, and there have
(14:46):
been now on two consecutive missions, there have been glitchy
problems with these thrusters on the what's known as the
service module. This is the part of the vehicle that
will burn up in space. This is not the capsule itself,
but it helps it's all part of the propulsion system.
(15:08):
So anyway, as you know, back in June, as Starliner
was coming in to dock with the ISS, five of
these thrusters failed, and NASA and Boeing eventually were able
to get four of them back unstuck and working together again,
and and the docking went ahead and the astronauts went
(15:31):
on board. That launched some furious studying at NASA and
Boeing into what was going on. And I think Boeing
feels confident that they've isolated the problem. NASA was not
as as confident. And and by the way, you know,
post Challenger, post Columbia, NASA is really emphasizing safety, and
(15:55):
I think that you know, there they don't want to
take any unnecessary especially when they're humans involved. So even
though twenty seven out of the twenty eight thrusters on
the service module eventually we're working, I think NASA just
doesn't feel comfortable, you know, that one of them wouldn't
(16:15):
fail again, and made this really difficult decision.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
Julie.
Speaker 3 (16:20):
Now to the future of the space program at Boeing.
The Starliner that you speak of many many years delayed,
many dollars in cost overruns. If we look at where
Boeing gets its revenue, about thirty two percent of its
revenue in twenty twenty three comes from defense, space and security.
How important is space to Boeing's future under Kelly Orkberg
(16:45):
moving forward?
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Oh man, that's the that's the big question. And we
just don't know right now what his thinking is. It's
early days and he's going to take some months now
to evaluate everything. But I meaning is such a proud
space company, space pioneer. You know, they were instrumental. If
you're Tim, I know you're an av geek uh and
(17:10):
an aerospace aerospace nut as am I. But you know Boeing.
Boeing was rescued the Saturn rocket program back in the sixties.
It almost bankrupted the company. They were a key player
with the Space Shuttle program. You know, they're at the
primary contractor on the International Space Station. So they've got
this really proud legacy. But then you know SpaceX has
(17:34):
come in and just totally revolutionize the business, and for
whatever complex reasons, you know, Boeing has not been able
to keep pace or to meet the obligations that it
has right now with Starliner. So you've got a new
guy coming in. He's got a mandate to look at
(17:54):
everything and it's not a given, uh that you know
that the company would continue with Starline, according to the
analysts that I've talked to. And what was interesting to me,
Bill Nelson on Saturday said, Hey, Ortberg assured me that,
you know, Boeing's in basically, but we didn't see a strong,
(18:18):
you know, a matching statement from Boeing. And again, I
just think every you know, part of it is they
don't know the next steps beyond star Liner coming to
Earth in September.
Speaker 5 (18:30):
Well, Julie to that point, I mean, this question has
been asked for a while now, and it predates, of course,
Kelly Ortberg. You have in your story that late last year,
chief financial officer Brian West told a small gathering of
investors of the company had a decision to make about
future investment in the program. So I guess the question
I have for you is what kind of timeline do
(18:52):
they have to make that decision? Because I have to
imagine this is a very expensive waiting period.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
Yeah it is, it is, but I really think, I mean,
there's so many unknowns right now. If Starliner performs lawlessly
when it flies back without humans in September, then this
becomes really you know, complicated for Boeing and for NASA,
I mean, CANASA. It feels like the thrust issue needs
(19:21):
to be resolved and with no you know, maybe needs
to be redesigned. But I don't, you know, can NASA
certify this vehicle without another test flight, which, by the way,
is that that's another half a billion out you know,
out of Boeing's pocket, uh for you know, for a
test flight. So so the decisions are going to stack up,
(19:44):
but I don't think anything will be you know, will
be made imminently. And the other thing is that if
Boeing's able to get its commercial factories going, you know,
airplanes rolling out the door, then its finances get better
and it's got more cushion, you know, to make these
(20:05):
thorny decisions around you know, national interests and duty and honor.
Speaker 3 (20:10):
Well, Julie, we only have like ten seconds left. But
if you were to rank Kelly Ortberg's five biggest five priorities,
would figuring out the future of space at Boeing even
be in the top five?
Speaker 2 (20:20):
No?
Speaker 3 (20:21):
Yeah, so that's some incredible context there. Julie Johnson, Hey,
we always love it when you join us. Everybody check
out Julie's story on the Bloomberg terminal. Julie's Bloomberg News
senior aerospace reporter, joining us from Chicago.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live
each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on applecar Play
and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can
also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New
York station. Just say Alexa Play. Bloomberg eleven thirty construction is.
Speaker 3 (20:55):
A new way in Wyoming for a new nuclear power
plant that Bill Gates hopes will revolutionize how power is generated.
It's going to use sodium instead of water.
Speaker 6 (21:03):
For cooling in the plant.
Speaker 3 (21:05):
The plant that is expected to cost up to four
billion dollars. It comes after Georgia just built two new
nuclear reactors. As the country that's US, US reconsiders nuclear
power as a way to create green energy. We've got
back with us. Maria Korsnik, president and CEO of the
Nuclear Energy Institute. She joins us from Washington, DC.
Speaker 6 (21:25):
Maria, how are you.
Speaker 7 (21:27):
I'm doing well. Thanks, happy to be back.
Speaker 3 (21:29):
Well, it's good to have you back with us. I'm
wondering how you're looking at the landscape right now. We
do have the pleasure of checking with you every few
months and getting an understanding of how you're viewing the
landscape is sort of on the side that represents the
nuclear power industry. Do you think that the appetite just
(21:50):
in the last few months has increased for nuclear power?
Speaker 2 (21:55):
I do?
Speaker 7 (21:56):
I mean demand, demand, demand, right, Look at all those
different and forecasts that have come out between AI and
machine learning, as well as the electricity that's just needed
to transition manufacturing and unsure that. So a lot of
new players sitting at the table with us, a lot
of those tech companies, a lot of those chemical companies.
(22:18):
It's a very exciting time in nuclear and.
Speaker 5 (22:21):
It's interesting to think about sort of the demographic demographical.
I hope that's a word perspectives of nuclear, because nuclear
for a lot of people is an off putting word.
But you highlighted some recent reporting from our colleagues over
at the Wall Street Journal that when it comes to
gen Z voters, perhaps there's a bit more of an
embrace of nuclear there than compared to say some of
(22:43):
the older demographics.
Speaker 7 (22:45):
Absolutely, I think the survey that you're referring to set
four out of five of the gen Zers support more
nuclear power, and you know, like nuclear is cool again,
right to some of these, to some of these vote,
and I think it's a wonderful opportunity to really rebrands
nuclear in terms of what does it bring. It brings
(23:07):
that round the clock, very clean, highly reliable energy, and
it's at a time when people are really focused on
climate and they're focused on energy security, and nuclear brings both.
Speaker 9 (23:20):
Well.
Speaker 3 (23:20):
I'm going to go where we always go with you,
which is where the mistakes were made over the last
thirty or forty years when it comes to the US
nuclear industry. I know this isn't about looking backward, but
we find ourselves in a place where we have closed
many nuclear power plants in the US. You see in
Europe too, a movement away in some countries that I
(23:41):
think some countries it's fair to say regret when it
comes to nuclear energy. How did we get to where
we are? And do we ever get back to a
place where we have the appetite for the actual amount
of money that needs to be invested to build these things?
Speaker 7 (23:55):
Yeah, I absolutely think we do. When you say, you know,
how did we get where we are? I can speak
the United States think back ten fifteen years, and you know,
we had really low prices of natural gas, you had
high incentives on wind and solar, and you know, we
were really pushing nuclear out of the marketplace. And I
think what you look at today is really strong demand,
(24:18):
high attention on carbon free and the need for energy security.
And it's not just happening here in the United States.
I've traveled around the world where they've shut them down,
they're talking about Wait a minute, was that a good decision?
Where they haven't shut them down, but they thought about
shutting them down, They've changed their mind. France is a
great example. Maybe U turn said nope, we're not shutting
(24:38):
them down. In fact, we're going to build more. And
I was just in Finland and Sweden and they're talking
about the same thing, let's have more nuclear.
Speaker 3 (24:45):
Do you think if do you think it was a
reaction to Three Mile Island Chernobyl Fukushima as to why
a lot of the world decided to move away from nuclear.
Speaker 7 (24:59):
Not so much in the United States, I'll be honest,
But elsewhere in the world. I do think that Fukushima
had an impact and had an effect. In fact, let's
just talk about that for a minute. Japan's talking about
restarting plants. In fact, has restarted plants, and they're talking
about building more. So you know, if the country that
(25:19):
had the challenge is also talking about moving forward, that
should really mean something to us. That means that on balance,
really looking at this understanding what's being brought to the
marketplace and to the people that clean energy, highly reliable,
it really matters, and that's where nuclear is well.
Speaker 5 (25:38):
Looking forward, Maria, I mean, let's assume that that survey
that we were talking about, the fact that the majority
of gen Z voters really does support nuclear. How long
the timeline are we talking about those shut down plants
that Tim and you were referencing. I mean, is it
as easy as flipping a switch? What does it actually
(25:59):
look like to start to rely on nuclear again?
Speaker 7 (26:04):
So let's talk about the nuclear we have today. Right,
we have ninety four beautiful plants operating today producing almost
twenty percent of the energy here in the United States.
And as we go forward, there's some things that are
very close to coming on. Those are microreactors and you're
going to be hearing about them in the next few years,
and then after that the small modular reactors as well.
(26:27):
So think about that in the end of the twenties
into the early twenty thirties, so very close. Sometimes people
think new nuclear is really far away. It's not. Those
first of all kinds are going to come over here
in the next you know, five to seven years. And
think about those two plants that were just built in Georgia,
the AP one thousands. Well we built two, and we're
ready to build more, and so that technology is already
(26:50):
ready to get going.
Speaker 3 (26:52):
We built those on but those were years behind schedule
and many many dollars over budget. We should note, Maria.
When it comes to the next gen nuclear reactors, I'm
curious if any of the technology thus far, when it
comes to small modular reactors, for example, has that been
(27:12):
proven to work yet anywhere?
Speaker 7 (27:15):
So the technology, the thing that makes it work, there's
really not a lot of new there. In other words,
some of these things, in fact, we built back in
the nineteen sixties. What we're doing now is we're taking
that technology and we're applying it and bringing new things
to the marketplace. And so I think the real guest
isn't is it going to work or not? It's oh, yeah,
(27:38):
it's going to work. And now what can we learn
about how efficiently can we build it? How you know,
each each technology is going to have, you know, a
little bit of a learning curve to sort of better
understand it. But these are wonderful opportunities to be brought
to the marketplace.
Speaker 5 (27:54):
Well, it feels like energy needs have once again entered
into broader conversation because we talk about energy demand in
the context of AI all the time. Now, I mean,
you think about how much just energy AI needs, especially
some of these data centers. I mean, do you see
an opportunity for the nuclear industry to seize on this moment?
Speaker 7 (28:18):
Absolutely? In fact, we're having those conversations now. We're having
conversations with the data centers, right We're having conversations with
large chemical companies. You know, we're having conversations with folks
that were saying, how are we going to get that
clean energy of the future, because you know, those companies
they want to brag about the fact that their product
was made clean, right, Well, you need clean energy in
(28:40):
order to have those bragging rights. So it's important to them.
They want to position themselves for the future. But they
want it not all I mean, they want it all
the time. Highly reliable seven twenty four and so yep,
there's other technologies, but they need to be paired with
that backbone of highly reliable, carbon free energy, and that's
what nuclear brand to the conversation.
Speaker 3 (29:01):
All right, what about when it comes great opportunity, Maria,
what about when it comes to waste? What is the
solution for nuclear waste? It seems like nobody wants it.
Speaker 7 (29:10):
You know, I'm gonna tell you, and I hope you're
going to bring me on at some point in the
future and we'll say, you know, I told you that
that nuclear waste was going to be a good thing.
The nuclear waste that we have today in the future,
I think it has opportunities to be used. In the meantime,
let's start really safe. We do that. I just came
back from Finland a couple of weeks ago. They just
put into commission. They're deep geologic repository. There's nothing magic
(29:33):
about that. There's no reason that the United States can't
do the same thing, and I'm sure we will.
Speaker 6 (29:38):
Okay, where should we do it in the US?
Speaker 7 (29:41):
Well, we're going to use a consent process, so we'll
be asking different folks in fact, who wants it? And
so how about this would be nice to be fought over,
wouldn't it? Who wants to have the nuclear waste? Who
wants to have that as part of their business function?
Speaker 2 (29:54):
Let's get there.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
Well, Tim, you have a backyard, don't you.
Speaker 6 (29:57):
Ye, you could put it in there.
Speaker 3 (30:00):
Yeah, thanks, Katie, that's a great idea. Yeah, definitely, maybe
we could keep it out at the bar and where
your horses.
Speaker 5 (30:05):
That's true, another good suggestion. Yeah, yeah, well we'll noodle
on it. But definitely have to have a Maria on
for that. I told you so a moment.
Speaker 3 (30:13):
Oh yeah, Maria, looking forward to that. We ask you
the question every time about nuclear waste, and I do.
I think it's fair to say, hope we all get
to a point where we can figure out the right
thing to do with nuclear waste and maybe get to
a point where, like you say, businesses are fighting over it.
That's Maria Korsnik, president and CEO at the Nuclear Energy Institute,
(30:33):
joining us from Washington, d C.
Speaker 2 (30:38):
Brother Marc.
Speaker 1 (30:41):
A journal How about you let me drive?
Speaker 10 (30:44):
Oh no, no, no, no, all right, please, I'll I want to.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
It's a good question. This is the Drive the Clothes
on Bloomberg Radio.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
It is Bloomberg Business Week Live in the Bloomberg Interactive
Broker's studio TikTok, less than twenty minutes to go to
the close of trading on this uh sleepy Monday.
Speaker 5 (31:16):
I don't know you taking the markets. Volumes are down,
but there's definitely a lot of movement there to the downside.
Definitely not the happy, the happy story we were telling you.
Speaker 3 (31:26):
Yeah, but you mega caps that are moving lower because
you got turn in seventy five stocks in the S
and p FI.
Speaker 5 (31:31):
It doesn't that feel important if the stock market's biggest
companies are moving to the downside.
Speaker 6 (31:36):
Oh it does.
Speaker 3 (31:37):
It does feel important. Let's see what Dave Harden has
to say about all this. He's founder and a chief
investment officer over at Summit Global Investments. He's one of
the few people who's not on vacation. Although maybe you
are on vacation. You're visiting us from Utah.
Speaker 8 (31:48):
Well it's not always a vacation in New York. But
let's face it, today's weather's pretty good, so I.
Speaker 6 (31:52):
Don't know, we haven't. They don't allow it's outside.
Speaker 5 (31:55):
So I did, and then you know.
Speaker 6 (31:58):
I felt, I felt the mother's I'm just kidding. They
do let us outside.
Speaker 10 (32:02):
They do the food inside is nice too.
Speaker 6 (32:04):
The food inside is good. Here we don't have to
go outside.
Speaker 3 (32:08):
How does this how does market post Jackson Hole? That
does the macro environment feel to you?
Speaker 8 (32:14):
Well, let's clearly say there was a couple comments there
in Jackson Hole that were important, and they were important
because it said that they are going to change policy.
And now twenty five points is a foregone conclusion, like
that's going to happen, right. I think the markets have
baked that in by now, So now it's what do
they do next?
Speaker 10 (32:31):
Are they going to do?
Speaker 6 (32:32):
Three?
Speaker 8 (32:32):
Is one of them going to be a fifty basis points?
So I think the markets are in a wait and see.
And the thing that's interesting is September labor market numbers
every year, especially around elections. For whatever reason, October has
the highest revisions. So I don't really put a lot
of faith on the numbers because they're going to get revision, revised,
(32:55):
deeply revised, more than anything else throughout the year.
Speaker 5 (32:57):
Yeah, it feels like quality of the day has come
into question, especially when it comes to the BLS. A
lot of snaff who's there, and then that revision last week.
I mean, I'm really curious to hear how you're factoring
that in.
Speaker 8 (33:10):
Well, I think you know, like most people, the reality
is is that the data bad news means that cuts
are coming, right, and good news is well good. So
right now we're kind of in a bad news is
good because that means the FEDS puts on the line
and it's going to happen, and good news is good.
So even though we're down today, which is not always easy,
(33:30):
I think the markets crawl higher for the next couple months,
just in choppy trading.
Speaker 3 (33:34):
There was a bad news is bad just a few
weeks ago when we got those.
Speaker 6 (33:38):
July jobs numbers. Yeah, for sure, was that a one off? Well,
I think in terms of labor market weakness, I.
Speaker 8 (33:45):
Think in the sense that the Fed hadn't come out
and said what they said. So post Jackson Hole, now
bad news is okay. Yeah, the FEDS puts there, So
I think before that it was bad. We didn't know
what they're going to do. In fact, can you remember
back two or three weeks ago when I was on
there with you that it was we've got to have
an emergency rate cut, and now we've been to well,
(34:05):
we're going.
Speaker 10 (34:06):
To have a rate cut.
Speaker 6 (34:07):
Wasn't that crazy. It was a few weeks ago.
Speaker 5 (34:09):
Yeah, and wasn't. I mean, there's still a lot of
crazy talk going around. I think it was Keilly Lines
who was telling us that Elizabeth Warren was saying that
the FED should cut by seventy five.
Speaker 6 (34:18):
Basically she's been saying two years at this point.
Speaker 10 (34:22):
I know, talk about it.
Speaker 3 (34:23):
Our whole thing is because of housing and right, you know,
mortgage rates.
Speaker 5 (34:27):
Well for sure, but if you cut rates, I mean,
then you have a lot of pent up demand on
the other side when it comes to the housing market.
But even still, I mean, I'm curious to hear your
view because Elizabeth.
Speaker 7 (34:36):
Wore on a side.
Speaker 5 (34:37):
Kathy Jones, for example, from Charles Schwab has made the
case that the FED should go fifty in September. That
you think about where rates are right now, north of
five percent, that's way too restrictive relative to the economic reality.
I'm curious your view on what the Fed should do
in September twenty five or fifty and what you think
(34:58):
they actually will deliver.
Speaker 10 (34:59):
It's a great question.
Speaker 8 (35:00):
I think should do is really here's the key. We've
had numbers like unemployment and like the inverted yield curve
point towards recession for thirty straight years, and each time
this has happened, the FED had an opportunity to do
act and wasn't able to prevent a recession. So what
is this FED going to do differently than the past
thirty to forty five years. Very smart people were there,
(35:22):
and yet they weren't able to stop it. So the
data says, hey, there's a recession on the line.
Speaker 10 (35:28):
What are they going to do?
Speaker 8 (35:29):
I think they should cut fifty But the reality is,
I don't think this FED is aggressive, and so they've
always been patient. They've always been a little bit behind
the curve, and so I think they're going to be patient.
Speaker 3 (35:40):
When do we get to a point where we don't
have to ask you or market observers whether or not
we're in a recession? The data becomes so clear that
we are in a recession.
Speaker 8 (35:49):
Well, you know, I'm hoping against history here, But the
reality is is that I hope that there's not one.
I don't feel like we're in one right now, and
so it would have to be you would see the
labor numbers continue to, you know, spiral down. You'd have
to see I think other numbers come out.
Speaker 6 (36:05):
Like a jobs report that shows instead of additions.
Speaker 8 (36:08):
Yeah, and I think you're going to have to see
more layoffs in the market, really company signaling there's problems,
and right now earnings and guidances are all fairly good.
Speaker 5 (36:17):
Yeah, I will say I find the idea of a
rolling recession pretty compelling because overall it seems like by
on broad metrics, the economy is held up. But then,
you know, I talked to some of my friends who
were working in startups last summer that space definitely seemed
like it was in a bit of a recession. But
I guess I'm wondering how you structure a portfolio around that,
(36:38):
because you mentioned that bad news is good news and
good news is kind of good news. I mean, is
that a green light for risk assets?
Speaker 10 (36:45):
Not really.
Speaker 8 (36:46):
I think you have to be picky to have a
recession proof portfolio. You need to manage your risk. So think,
for example, what does well in both environments if we
have a recession and even coming out of recession. So
for me today, for example, I'll.
Speaker 10 (36:59):
Look at healthcare. Healthcare to me is the new utility.
Speaker 8 (37:02):
Right. You take a look at somebody that's taking some drugs.
They've lost twenty thirty pounds, or they've maybe reduced their
diabetes medication. Are they coming off those drugs? The answer
is not on your life, right, if the power goes out,
you're gonna learn to deal with it. But if you
drop your phone, if you can't take that drug, you're
gonna go get a new phone today. You're gonna go
see a different doctor today. So to me, healthcare has done.
Speaker 10 (37:23):
Very very well.
Speaker 8 (37:24):
It's up over eighteen percent month to day. But if
you look at does it still have legs to run?
Speaker 10 (37:29):
Absolutely?
Speaker 8 (37:30):
Eli Lilly just raised their guidance. They have fantastic earnings.
So to me, I think you have to manage risk
with individual holdings. You have to stay diversified and look
for those companies that are going to survive regardless what
the FED does.
Speaker 6 (37:41):
Dave, where do you not want to be right now?
Speaker 10 (37:43):
I think you got to be careful with some of
the AI names.
Speaker 8 (37:46):
Now we know that video and video, we know they're
kinding to come out, and I think they're going to
do great.
Speaker 10 (37:51):
Can they do good enough?
Speaker 8 (37:53):
I mean, everybody wants them to blow it out of
the water so that this market can just you know,
hang their hat on that and continue. But the reality
is is they've got some issues they have to solve
across the whole spectrum. So I'd be really cautious if
you're going to invest in tech, look still look for
high free cash flow, look for still high quality earnings.
Look for something that if AI doesn't pan out, you
still have a real, big, large, great company working for you.
Speaker 1 (38:16):
Right.
Speaker 10 (38:16):
So for like, Microsoft is a great example.
Speaker 5 (38:19):
That's really interesting. And I actually want to go back
to your point on healthcare and having to be picky there,
because I was actually looking at shares of United Health
for whatever reason earlier today and they're close to an
all time high. But then you take a look at
you know, some of the worst performance on the S
and P five hundred, do you have dex com in
there for example, sort of one of the flip side
(38:39):
of the GLP one trade. I mean, just thirty seconds
that due diligence, It sounds like you're doing that on
a company by company level when you're taking a look
at that sector.
Speaker 8 (38:49):
You have to, but your due diligence has to be
kind of on its head. Don't look for companies that
are just going to go crazy to the upside, right
because that's not the market we're in. We're not at
the throw the dart market. We're at the market where
you have to look at the downside.
Speaker 10 (39:01):
So look at the risk. Turn over more walks.
Speaker 8 (39:03):
If you're gonna expect the boats, yes the title, raise
them all. Look for the holes in the boats, don't
use those ones.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
Dave appreciate you joining us.
Speaker 3 (39:11):
Dave Harden, founder and CIO over at Summit Global Investments,
joining us here.
Speaker 1 (39:15):
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