October 26, 2025 • 61 mins
Summary
Artist Charlie Cole joins David Smith and Gabe Vasquez for a candid exploration of how sobriety, queer identity, and spirituality shape creative expression. From childhood art experiments to the erotic themes of his current work, Cole shares how his journey is marked by vulnerability, humor, and a refusal to hide any part of himself. Along the way, the conversation delves into the power of community, the alchemy of erotic and spiritual energy, and why shedding old skins—whether through paint or recovery—can lead to honest, transformative art.
You can listen to Part 1 of our interview with Charlie over on Gabe's Podcast: Art, Sobriety, and the Fool's Journey: Charlie's Path to Healing Through Creativity
Keywordsqueer art, sobriety, recovery, erotic art, creativity, spirituality, LGBTQ+ artists, vulnerability, Dallas art scene, artistic process
Takeaways- Art as Subconscious Expression: Cole sees art as a channel for subconscious truths, allowing things to emerge that even he doesn’t fully understand until after creation.
- Sobriety as Creative Catalyst: Getting sober didn’t just clear space for art—it allowed Cole’s creative voice to grow in bold, authentic directions, free from shame or self-censorship.
- Eroticism as Spiritual: Cole’s current work is unapologetically erotic, reflecting his belief that sexual energy and spiritual energy are deeply connected, not separate realms.
- From Chaos to Clarity: Pre-sobriety art was sporadic and hard to trace; post-recovery, Cole’s art shows a clear, evolving narrative, mirroring his emotional and spiritual growth.
- Vulnerability Through Visibility: Making erotic art—especially pieces that might make even his mom blush—requires a willingness to be seen, judged, and ultimately proud.
- Creative Cycles and Pink Clouds: Like the “pink cloud” phase in recovery, Cole’s artistic journey ebbs and flows, with bursts of inspiration followed by quieter periods of reflection.
- Community and Isolation: While Cole’s art is deeply personal, he reflects on the tension between creative solitude and the desire for deeper artistic community.
- From Abstraction to Intimacy: Cole’s next artistic phase might move beyond raw eroticism to explore intimacy, connection, and emotional depth—finding new ways to tell queer stories.
- The Fool’s Journey Through Recovery: His unpublished book merges tarot symbolism with sobriety narratives, offering a personal map for integrating spiritual and creative growth.
- Art as Manifestation: Cole believes that what we paint can shape our reality—sometimes literally, as people or situations that appear in his life eerily resemble figures from his canvases.
- 00:02 – Introductions & Setting the Stage
- 00:39 – Gabe’s Podcast Mission: Sobriety and the LGBTQ+ Community
- 03:15 – Charlie’s Creative Roots: From Childhood Sketches to Performance Art
- 05:28 – Art Before and After Sobriety: Finding a Linear Progression
- 09:18 – Spirituality in Art: From Marie Laveau to Out-of-Body Experiences
- 12:08 – Queer Identity & Art: Eroticism, Vulnerability, and Liberation
- 14:15 – Gabe on Creativity in Recovery: From Journaling to Crochet
- 17:13 – Charlie’s Creative Process Today: Erotic Art, Collaboration, and Growth
- 24:10 – Advice for Creatives: Embracing Imperfection, Vulnerability, and Subconscious Flow
- 33:07 – Creative Community: The Search for Connection Beyond the Canvas
- 35:18 – Art as Shedding Skin: Phases, Bursts, and the Evolution of Voice
- 41:02 – The Fool’s Journey Through Recovery: Charlie’s Unpublished Book and Spiritual Integration
- 46:52 – Looking Ahead: Next Projects, New Directions, and Taking Up Space
- 54:55 – Rapid-Fire Questions: Oils, Cocktail Twins, and the Art of the Daddy Voice
- 01:03:28 – Closing Thoughts: The Magic of Growth, Community, and Queer Creativity
Charlie Cole is a Dallas-based artist whose work spans spiritual symbolism, queer eroticism, and the interplay of recovery and creativity. His unpublished book, The Fool’s Journey Through Recovery, explores tarot as a metaphor for sobriety and personal evolution.
- Facebook Page: Art by Cole
- Instagram: @charlesedwardcole
- Book: The Fool’s Journey Through Recovery –
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
All right.
Uh, welcome back to art and the raw.
Um, I'd like to welcome my cohost today.
Uh, Gabe Vasquez from his podcast Out and About AF Uh, Gabe and I recently talked to withCharlie on his podcast about, uh, Charlie's, um, and Charlie shared his sobriety journey
with us and, um, talked about that because that's the focus of, of Gabe's podcast.
(00:27):
Um, Gabe, tell us a little bit about you and your, your audience and your mission withyour podcast.
out in about AF and talk a little bit about why Charlie's story resonated with yourcommunity.
Yeah, well, David first, thanks for having me be a co-host on here.
I think that's pretty cool.
uh But yeah, no, we had a great conversation with Charlie.
(00:49):
So my podcast is really about sharing stories within the LGBTQIA plus community, uh justaround sobriety.
There's so many different forms of sobriety, whatever your choice of drug or substancewas.
We all have a different story to share no matter how messed up or how great it was.
(01:17):
Someone else out there who needs help can identify or can relate to that.
And so that's kind of the whole idea of the podcast is just to get those stories out andjust realize that you can be sober in a gay community or in the gay community.
and still go out, still have fun, still experience everything everyone else does, justwithout substances.
(01:44):
the more stories we get out there and you know, I met Charlie, what, a years ago, notgonna date ourselves here, uh a few years ago and I don't know if I told you this story,
Charlie, but we were at uh Marty's one time and I went up and I asked you if I can get youa drink.
(02:06):
And you just said no very, you know, very nicely.
I said no and I walked off and I was like, huh, I was like, and I was still drinking atthe time.
And he goes, or someone goes, he doesn't drink.
And in my head, I'm like, why?
Like what?
Like, it just didn't dawn on me, you know, until I got sober.
I'm like, yeah, people do go out.
(02:27):
you know, so it's always, you know, I've always just known Charlie as someone who is soberand, but still goes out, still does all those things that.
I when I was drinking too, but now I just didn't.
And then he put me onto the Topo Chico with the salted rim and you gotta drink.
good.
Yeah.
The lime.
(02:48):
I'm down for that.
That's great.
All right, so let's dive into your creative side a little bit, Charlie, um for folks whohaven't maybe listened to your episode of On Out and About.
um Thinking back to your creative beginnings, um were you making art before your sobrietyjourney, or did your creativity emerge as part of that?
(03:15):
You know, it's really been a whole life and thank you both that, you know, the firstpodcast was really fun to do.
So I'm glad we get to do another one.
So thank you.
uh Really I've been painting.
I don't remember a time in my life when I wasn't drawing, painting or expressing myselfthrough art.
And what I remember most was fourth grade, I think must've been when it really kind ofkicked in.
(03:41):
I remember sketching one of my cousins.
And my mom still has that sketch.
She has it framed in one of her rooms.
And so that was one of the first times I really just started sketching something that Iwas looking at live.
And, you know, that I was always such a creative kid, you know, and that was probably thefirst time I did something that was worth keeping.
(04:04):
mean, I was a little scary as a kid, too.
Don't get me wrong.
I mean, I remember trying to.
A little bit, yeah.
How so?
Well, one example of my creative side being a little dangerous was, uh so same year,fourth grade, I had one of those Fisher Price record players.
(04:30):
And so I made some homemade clay with flour, water, dirt, things like that, and tried tomake it into a pottery wheel.
So I'm putting this wet stuff onto an electric record player.
So.
Always a little creative.
(04:50):
Used to try to make my mom perfumes and things like that with flowers and water and someof her old perfume bottles.
That's funny.
That sounds resourceful to me.
It sounds resourceful.
I was left alone a lot.
Definitely a latchkey kid.
I think a lot of artists probably uh find their creative side uh when they've been leftalone a lot.
(05:18):
So I interrupted you there a little bit.
like continue on about like how you got, how you started your artistic journey and whereyou got started.
It's definitely the start of it.
I remember painting up and through high school, but it never really felt like this was abig thing in my life.
(05:40):
It always just felt like something we all did.
And I did paint once I got out of high school.
Me and one of my best friends, Susie, ended up moving in together.
And that, you know, there was a lot of artwork during that time period.
I definitely wasn't sober.
I remember at one point I just took one of my bed sheets and gessoed it and ended uppainting a Marie Laveau over a cauldron, you know, holding what looked like chamomile
(06:11):
flowers.
And I'm not sure where that piece was.
Yeah, I mean, it was a queen size sheet.
It was a huge painting with lots of nudity.
so, I mean, I just I've always had that.
And it definitely progressed.
I did end up having an art show when I was around.
(06:32):
Must have been around 26, 27.
And I remember that being pretty fun.
had a lot of my friends over for that one, and that was somewhere in.
Downtown Deep Ellum area, but I don't really I don't remember.
I don't even think it's open anymore
So, you know, really all throughout my life, there's just, there's always been an elementof art and that art has always been something to do with what I was going for.
(07:01):
So, the stuff just before I got sober was a little chaotic.
And when I got sober, I didn't think I was going to get back into art again.
You know, it didn't really feel like I was going to have all those abilities.
I was kind of thinking I want to be able to paint.
I want to have the creative side again.
But everything that came after that was much better than the pre-sober Charlie.
(07:26):
Yeah.
So you became sober, I think you said about 10 years ago, 13 years ago.
and it wasn't in Dallas.
I was born in Dallas, but I didn't get sober until I had moved to Houston.
how, how does your art evolve before you got sober and how do you think your sobrietyimpacted and changed your art?
(07:54):
Definitely.
You know, a lot of my life I've always had like this spiritual yearning.
And so when you look back over some of my earlier pieces, you'll see like, you know, anIndian with her hair kind of getting caught up with the moon.
So you'll see a lot of those expressions of spirit that I didn't really know how tocommunicate.
(08:16):
You know, that one with nature and...
You know, it was just so deep in me that it was just really hard to share that withpeople, but art gave me the ability to do that.
And there were a lot of times also I would paint something, not really realizing what Iwas painting, but then afterwards I would look at it and I could see it so easily.
(08:37):
A lot of times my friends would tell me what they saw in it and then it would just kind ofshock me that that was such a huge part of my personality.
and looking at it suddenly it would become clear.
I always felt like art was in a way letting your subconscious take over and trying to getout of the way of it.
You because if you sit there being critical about your art and you use solely yourconscious mind, it's just not gonna, it doesn't work for me.
(09:02):
So that was really, yeah.
art is a way that they express something that they don't even realize about themselves.
Right.
Yeah, I can very much say that's been true to my experience as well.
So I've seen a lot of the art that you've created, um even since we've met the last fewyears, um is kind of spiritually based.
(09:27):
And you mentioned Marie Laveau um and the woman whose hair is getting tied up in the moon.
Was spirituality something that you always incorporated into your art?
You know, it was always just a huge part of me.
mean, I remember being in high school and maybe even middle school, but I just remember ifI was in the library at school and I could find something based on magic or witchcraft,
(09:51):
just, it would feel taboo and it would just be so neat to find those books and to lookthrough them and read them.
So, you know, really early on, yeah, and I was a weird kid.
remember my 13th birthday.
I asked for a cloak.
That's all I want.
(10:11):
It was a black cloak, you know, straight out of Rocky Horror Picture Show.
very well back in the early 90s, because I was kind of the goth kid back then too, but goon, you're cloak.
yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I was gothic.
I was going to Lizard Lounge, the church, you know, definitely.
(10:32):
Loved Peter Murphy, loved Susie and the Banshees.
And even when I look back on Susie and the Banshees and listen to the music, everything isabout like contacting the other side, spiritual connection, ghost.
And, you know, it's just such a common element.
And so I've always been...
I've always felt that I was a huge part of that, being able to walk in two differentplanes.
(10:56):
I mean, one of the times, I think the first time I had an out-of-body experience was justbefore I became, well, before I got diagnosed as being diabetic.
You know, I was going in and out of the doctors quite a bit and we couldn't figure outwhat was wrong with me, but I was constantly sick.
And...
You know, after the last time being there, the doctor sat down with me and my mom anddiscussed what it meant to have psychosomatic illness.
(11:22):
And so we decided we were not going to go back to the doctors.
We were going to do everything naturally that we could.
And then I remember my mom looking at me and I was on the other side of the room and Icould see her talking to me.
And the next thing I knew I was in my body looking at her and I said, we need to go todoctor now.
And so, you know, being diabetic, you know, it's always felt kind of like I was inbetween.
(11:47):
You know, I mean, I can't exist without the need of, you know, medicines.
So it always did feel like it was kind of an in-between place.
Plus insulin always affected my dreams and things like that as well.
So at, yeah.
So at that time, I think I really did need a little extra to get through life.
(12:08):
And it was readily available.
How do you think your, your gay identity impacted that or, or did it, how did it impactyour art m pre sobriety and after.
Pre-sobriety, I didn't really do too much uh erotic art.
(12:31):
I mean, there was just a little bit, I had some nudity, but I didn't really do anythingerotic, with the exception of dating a guy and painting ourselves up and rolling around on
canvases and things like that, which is always fun, of course.
Always a great idea for a second date.
lists.
To try that.
You
Yeah, so one particular boyfriend that was my second date was uh we had planned itbeforehand and we just went into the house, painted ourselves and I had a girlfriend of
(13:03):
mine playing the violin while we did that.
So that was the second date, you know, and we ended up being together for about threeyears.
Yeah, yeah, I wish I still had those photographs.
Those were pretty amazing.
So you just got stripped down naked, got painted all up and this girl sitting over in thecorner playing a violin while y'all are.
(13:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
It was pretty creative.
Yeah, and it worked.
I kept them for three years now.
So that was a good one.
there was always candles in my room.
I always got so many candles.
Absolutely.
You know, so I didn't really see it.
in the nineties and not have candles everywhere.
(13:48):
oh
with the music.
No.
So, yeah, so that was really one of the few times it was kind of a gay experience with theartwork.
I mean, I didn't really have a lot of eroticism back then.
And it wasn't really until after I got sober that, you you could really see a progressionthroughout my life and in my artwork as well.
(14:15):
Um, Gabe, you, you work with a lot of people navigating alcohol free living.
Um, what do you see in terms of how creativity shows up in people's recovery?
Well, one is they actually find creativity.
Like, because we're, you know, we drown, we use alcohol or drugs, whatever it is, youknow, as a mask or a way to cope with things.
(14:41):
you know, once we get, once we get that off, you know, out of our system, it's like ourbrain starts healing, you know, we get to tap into new opportunities.
Sometimes people use it as a way to not drink or to not use.
And, uh
Like I even remember for myself, music, like really listening to music and really, reallylistening to music, like the lyrics of it all.
(15:10):
it's like, it just hits differently now, you know?
And I got into crocheting, you know, because I was like, I don't wanna, like I need to dosomething with my hands.
a creative bone in your body.
Look at that.
Yeah, that's creative.
I'm gonna expect one.
Not yet.
(15:32):
Soon as you make those jock straps and crochet, I want one of those.
Yeah
did make one.
I did make a jockstrap.
That I did make.
But no, think it just allows it because we have, A, we have more time on our hands, right,that we have to fill and it's what can we do?
And for myself, I have ADHD, so I'm constantly going around what can I do, what can I do?
(15:58):
And so, yeah, I've heard a lot of people dive, you know, they dive back into coloringbooks.
just so they can have something to do.
So I think it, I mean, it just opens up doors when you get that out of your system.
Does that resonate with you, Charlie?
I mean, yes, absolutely.
And before sobriety, I think my art was sporadic.
(16:23):
mean, can't see a linear progression in my art like you can after I got sober.
And a lot of people say that you kind of emotionally stunt yourself whenever you fall intoaddiction.
And so that's.
Probably the biggest part of it was I don't think I was growing in a linear way,especially with my spirituality.
(16:45):
It was kind of just all over the place.
But then once I got sober, you can definitely see these periods throughout my artworkwhere they're similar, they're getting better, and then sometimes the subject will change.
And it's what I'm working on at that point.
um Walk us through your creative process now.
um How do you approach your paintings today?
(17:13):
So right now I'm doing a lot of erotic art and that includes hard ons and all that goodstuff.
So normally...
You know, I'm not sure how the inspiration hits.
Normally it's somebody that I have an admiration for or that I see something in them.
(17:37):
um And I've done paintings of all kinds of different guys, you know, so it's, I'm not surewhat it is, but it is normally a time I'll walk up to someone and say, you know, I would
like to paint you, would you be up for doing a photo shoot?
And so normally I'm the one that will take the pictures of anything that I paint, know,that's kind of one of my things.
(18:03):
However, during COVID there were a few times when I painted and it was just pictures thatpeople had sent to me.
But yeah, I mean it's...
I mean, think the creative process happens a long time before that for me.
I do think it's internal and it has to get out.
(18:24):
That was one of the things that you see as huge shifts.
um That's one of the huge shifts I'm talking about with the emotional growth.
When I first got sober, I didn't really paint for the first year and then it just hit me.
And a lot of the artwork I was doing was based on the tarot.
So was doing like a lot of the Tarot know, the empress, the high priestess, the fool.
(18:49):
But my version of the fool was, you know, the fool walking out on a golden hand that wassymbolic of the Buddha and knowing that the fall was going to be okay.
So you see a progression of those and you see, you know, some of my paintings which hadangelic forces.
And then there was a huge shift.
(19:10):
And I was in...
I was in a marriage for a while.
You know, it was a seven year relationship.
But at some point the sexual side just died.
You know, it just wasn't there anymore.
And I tried to make peace with that and I tried to be, you know, in a healthy relationshipand kept sacrificing, you know, the sexual side of myself because a relationship was the
(19:39):
most important thing.
And also I understood the lack of desire on his end because, know, and you know, lot ofmeds make it to where you just lose your sexual appetite completely.
So I was very understanding and I didn't think something like that was so important thatit should shape a relationship.
(20:02):
Well, then I was doing some work basically, and I'll try to make it simple.
You know, I was doing some work on my chakras.
And when doing work like that, one of the things I do is I try to build the energy andthen I try to release it.
And I try to incorporate it into my life.
And everything was fine until I got to that, uh, that sacral chakra, you know, the onethat's sexual.
(20:28):
And once I felt that I had fully charged that my life changed pretty drastically.
It was as though, uh, I realized you can't feed a lion lettuce.
And that's what I'd been trying to do for a very long time.
And I was actually starving myself and sex is a huge part of who I am.
(20:49):
And so that that's when I started painting a little bit differently.
And I think one of the first paintings that I did after that experience was it was amonkey holding a giant rooster, a cock.
So he's holding this.
The cock is as big as the monkey is.
And he's
Guy has little hands just trying to hold onto it and the expression on his face ispriceless.
(21:12):
mean, he's overwhelmed and he doesn't know what he's gonna do with this.
And he realizes it's just as big as he is.
So there was a lot of symbolism in that one.
And I don't think I really realized that when I first painted it how symbolic that was ofmy sexual appetite, which had been suppressed, which is now as big as me and I can't
(21:35):
contain it anymore.
Was that painting pre or post sobriety?
That was about probably about two years into sobriety, maybe a little bit longer thanthat.
mean, because the first stretch of paintings you have once I got sober after a year wasthe spiritual stuff.
(21:59):
And then, and I'm not going to separate spiritual from the spirituality of eroticism, buteroticism was added about two to three years into that.
I've always believed that erotic energy and spiritual energy are closely tied together.
Uh, anyways, so, I mean, that totally tracks.
(22:21):
that's a huge thing to tap on.
I think it's important for not only artists, but also occultists and people that studymagic.
You know, um it's difficult to live in a kind of like a Puritan type of surroundingwhenever you are an artist or when you have ADHD and need to be creative.
(22:44):
Or it's just, it's difficult.
And I think one of the big parts is that, you you come to understand by working withenergy that the sapral chakra is the battery source for all creativity.
It's procreation.
It's casting light into darkness.
(23:07):
And that's what creativity is, you know, and I can go into some really deep stuff on thatone, but we'll kind of stop it there.
But sexuality and.
yeah, this could fill up a few of them.
But that's the thing is that, you know, that's the source of creativity.
Everything that is a manifestation of that creative energy and of that procreation typeenergy, we just transform it into different things.
(23:36):
So vulnerability is a topic that's come up a number of times with a number of interviewsI've had with artists doing this podcast and, doing erotic art, I think requires a little
bit of vulnerability.
(23:57):
how has your relationship with vulnerability changed through both your art and yourrecovery making your,
art making and your recovery.
I think one of the big things about erotic art is not being ashamed of it.
And I think that is, yeah, I mean.
(24:21):
Yeah, like my mom was, I had, I was gonna use her housekeeper to kind of do somestraightening up around the house and she said, well, make sure you turn all your
paintings backwards.
You know, so that's a common thing.
And it's just, it can be interesting when I have some people that are close to me thatjust aren't into it.
(24:46):
You know, I'm trying to shield myself from that.
I am part of a spiritual community and, uh you know, recently.
But somebody did tell me that, you know, one of the things they were kind of looking atwas the artwork that I've been posting.
And, you know, she's somebody I look up to, she said, you know, I love your art, I have anart degree, accustomed to that and I think it's beautiful, but a lot of people around us
(25:15):
aren't.
And so just be careful of that.
Yeah, so that.
I think the vulnerability that comes with my erotic art is being proud of it and not beingshy from it and not feeling like there's something wrong with it.
I mean, it's the same things you do with sex.
mean, the human body, the cock, you know, all of it is spiritual.
(25:41):
There's nothing broken about eroticism, sexuality.
It doesn't need to be hidden, you know, and that's just...
It's a huge thing and you struggle with it.
Or I struggle with it.
So I was gonna ask really quick.
I guess I'll provide some context before I ask the question.
(26:05):
So when I was drinking, I was very small.
Like I didn't wanna stand out too much.
But when I drank, I was able to do that.
I was able to, know, cause I had a lot of social anxiety, right?
And growing up in a small West Texas town, scared.
for someone to find out if I was gay or not.
(26:26):
And so I developed a lot of social anxiety and alcohol made me feel sexual, feelattractive, be able to talk to people.
And so when I gave that up, it gave me the confidence.
And when I gave it up, I was like, how am I gonna get confidence?
(26:47):
And I slowly but surely go out to a pool party and I didn't drink that night.
you know, great, you know, and I started building confidence and I built confidence inmyself that I, like I wanted to start doing new things, trying new things.
And one of them was uh going to one of David's uh Salon Naturale uh events.
(27:12):
And you know, it's the nudest art event and I've never, you know, I've gone to poolparties where yes, I've lost my clothes many a times, but not to an actual nudist event.
And, uh...
at those parties with you, I remember.
Yeah, couple of them might have been at my house
But what I was like.
to bust you, but yeah, it was at your house.
(27:35):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, no, no shame there.
Um, and I've gone sober now to, you know, to David's house, you know, with a pool partyand been naked and stuff.
And it's, but I got to a point now to where it's like, I don't really care what people,like I found freedom in sobriety of, I don't accept me as I am basically.
(27:59):
And so my question is like, do you think that has anything to do with
like how you do your art now is like, do you think sobriety had something like to helpwith that of like dropping that veil of like, what are people gonna think and everything
like that?
Absolutely, yeah.
(28:20):
mean, quite a bit.
You know, along with addiction is also codependency.
And so when you get out of addiction, you really have to start dealing with codependencyand kind of breaking that cycle as well.
So, you know, to get to the part where you're finding sexual liberation, you know, beingable to have sex with someone but not being responsible for them.
(28:46):
you know, just to be able to have the experience of two adults being able to touch oneanother and not having to make sure they go to college or, you know, any of the things
that come with it.
You know, that's huge.
And getting to the point to where you can stand on your feet and enjoy it.
And especially without the excuse of having something in your system is pretty amazing.
(29:10):
Because at some point you have to take...
I mean, you have to take responsibility.
I mean, you do have to eventually say, this is a part of me, especially if you have noother way to release it.
So I think that's one of the big things about sobriety is realizing that you have toaccept that it's a part of you or, you know, these things underneath the surface really
(29:32):
get out of hand and come out in ugly ways.
Alcohol is a great excuse.
You know, I was drunk and that's why, you know, I jumped into the middle of the orgy andnot anymore.
Now I just jumped into the middle of the orgy.
Yeah.
hear.
Yeah, no, just yeah like I found like I just I Was able to there's just yeah now a senseof freedom of you know, I can try these new things and I can tell people that I normally
(30:04):
wouldn't tell that I'm going to like this kind of event You know where before it was alllike shameful and stuff.
So it's like I've like I've ran out of like fucks to give I guess, you know what?
I'm like sober now and
I'm gonna do what I want because now, because A, I've worked my ass off to stay sober.
(30:27):
So I'm gonna go out and celebrate and try new things.
So yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And you're, you're, you're much younger than I am Gabe, but, uh, that, uh, lack of give afuck also happens with age too.
Um, I think that's part, that's part of like the older I got, the less I cared what otherpeople thought about what I was doing.
(30:54):
So.
Yeah.
Well, we'll see.
We'll see.
we'll see, we'll see you at the next naked salon.
So, um, I've heard this phrase before that in recovery, there's often this talk about a, areality check or pink cloud is a phrase I've heard someone referred to it before.
(31:20):
I don't know if you've heard that phrase.
Um, have you experienced similar cycles like that with your
your artistic practice.
I made him think.
Yeah.
(31:40):
wow.
Yeah.
Definitely.
Yeah, there've been a couple, absolutely.
You know, the pink cloud thing was really special to me in sobriety.
It was really funny because I remember one meeting where I just was thinking, you know,whatever happened to my pink cloud.
(32:02):
And then at the end of the meeting, this guy in front of me hands me a little token and onit, it says pink cloud.
wow.
You know, yeah, so I always had little moments like that.
uh There were a few times when I made pretty big leaks, you know, like going from acrylicto oil or like painting a lion.
(32:31):
Like I remember there was a time where I wanted to paint a lion on one of my pieces and
I'm sitting there thinking, I don't know how to draw a lion.
I don't know how to paint a lion.
And then I had to think, you know, I don't not know how to draw a You know, I don't notknow how to draw a lion.
So, you know, it was a change of perception.
(32:51):
And then, you know, when you do something like that and you look back and you see it, youknow, overcoming that doubt, overcoming that fear, it's, it definitely feels like a pink
cloud.
It does feel like something that's kind of special.
Interesting.
What about uh creative community?
(33:13):
How much of a role has creative community played in your artistic journey?
You know, I wish that side was a little...
I work from home, so in a typical day, I'm at my computer, I get off work, I either go sitin my bedroom or I'll occasionally pick up a paintbrush or watch TV or, well, I've got a
(33:41):
book that I'm working on too, so, but as far as connecting with other artists, it's alwaysbeen difficult for me.
And I'm gonna, this might end up going long winded, I'm not sure.
uh
It's kind of the same as someone who...
(34:02):
is spiritually evolved, but then everybody else kind of contributes and helps them withthe mundane reality.
Well, I don't have a separation between the two.
I feel like the mundane reality is part of my spirituality.
So I don't try to stay in like this preacher, priest type of setting and ask fordonations.
(34:22):
You know, so for me, I guess there's always been this concept for me that art is not afull-time thing.
It's always been that we live life and we paint what we're going through, but it's notlife within itself.
And I don't know if that's going to change at some point.
(34:43):
I I know other artists do it, it's their entire life.
But to me, I can't imagine living in a world of only art.
So I guess in some ways I'm not really a part of those communities.
So, and I'm not sure what that is.
you mentioned living your life and then art kind of comes in when you're going throughsomething.
(35:09):
I forget exactly how you phrased it.
So do you find then that you were drawn to art?
not knowing that you're you're going through something that you need art to express.
Do you go through phases where you're doing lots of art and then you're not
I have inspirations where I will turn out pieces and pieces and pieces.
(35:34):
And normally it is when I'm going through a struggle or a growth and yeah, you know thatit's interesting because I've filled up a whole art studio before in a matter of two
months and then I would go a year without painting.
So yeah, there's always those inspirations and
(35:55):
It is interesting to look back on something and to see, you know, this huge subconsciouspicture emerge that you had no idea was trying to come out of you.
So yeah, those are just, it's pretty profound.
So yeah, I do think of, I kind of think that.
(36:21):
I feel like it almost sounds like journaling in a sense.
It's like when you're going through something, want to, you know, jot it down and...
But no, that's interesting.
I've never really thought about like painting as a way to express what you're goingthrough.
I understand, you know, a lot of people do it, but like to go through those time periodswhere it's, you know, kind of a moment, it's interesting.
(36:49):
Well, to me, always, I see it as shedding skin.
So I kind of see it like a serpent and I can't grow until I shed the skin.
And so shedding the skin might mean that, yeah, it's huge.
You know, it might be that I finally subconsciously understand what this subconsciouspatterning looks like.
(37:11):
You know, I can finally see it.
And so that's, that's when I'm able to grow again is I
I kind of embody it.
See ya.
Yeah, Gabe, you mentioned journaling.
you, do you journal occasionally?
Yeah, not as much as I would like, but early on in my sobriety journey, I was writingsomething down every day.
(37:42):
And when I didn't have it, I wrote down three things that I was grateful for just early inthe morning, kind of set the tone for the rest of the day.
But yeah.
As it's really transformative, like I'll be stressed.
(38:03):
I usually do it when I'm stressed now.
And as I'm writing, as the process goes on, I can literally feel it, that stress justleaving, you know, and kind of leave it all out there.
And so it's been one of the things that I've.
I don't like doing the most, but it's one of the best things that works for me when I doit.
(38:30):
Yeah.
there's an entire chapter in, um, the artists way.
think Charlie's familiar with it.
on, uh, a practice called morning pages.
the goal of morning pages is for you to sit down almost the first thing you do everymorning.
(38:52):
Um, and just write stream of consciousness, three pages handwritten every morning.
Just whatever comes across your brain, even if it's, if it's nothing, you just keepwriting.
I have nothing.
have nothing.
have nothing.
But then something will come up and you'll want to write about it.
(39:14):
And doing that every day, uh, has this amazing effect of getting these things out of yourhead that are blocking your creative process.
Um, so I can definitely see where you've seen some of that gave in your experience withjournaling.
(39:35):
and it's, there's a spiritual side to that, think too, Charlie with, with doing art aswell.
Definitely.
know, and talking about journaling, that's interesting too, because I had never reallythought about that.
That was huge, especially through high school and early college years of journaling.
(39:56):
And when you talk about the spiritual side of that, I'm going to go into a weird referencenow.
uh The books by Carlos Castaneda.
the Eagles gift and all these other books, while he's learning shamanism through histeacher, Don Juan, he would at times get his reality so tested that he felt like he was
(40:19):
gonna throw up because reality had just shifted for him.
Don Juan would say, right.
And so he'd have to sit down and he'd start writing and then he'd be okay again.
That he would be so off balance that he would just be sick.
So, you know, there's a writing that comes along with that type of spirituality.
(40:43):
There's also writing like.
uh
Oh, letters to a young poet?
I think I've heard of that.
Yeah.
So I mean, those were always so interesting.
But even in that one, you know, it's diving into what are the reasons you write for andyes, I love that.
(41:08):
So speaking of writing, you have a book that you wrote.
I have a copy of your book.
Um, tell us about your journey writing this book.
and tell us a little bit about the book.
It's it's, it's got that, that fool, uh, tarot card on the front of it that you weretalking about earlier.
(41:33):
Yes.
So that was really fun.
I mean, I'm rewriting it right now.
I've never actually published the book.
I did do a self publishing through Barnes and Noble.
So it is available there, but I've never done it in like Kindle format or any of those.
So right now I'm going back through chapter and chapter and just making it a little morerelevant for where I am now.
(41:57):
And I am done with the English version.
I'm wanting to do it in Spanish too.
um
But it's a, I feel like it is now a polished product.
It just needs to be put into some different formats so that I can really launch it.
So that book, you know, I was, so the first year of sobriety, I didn't really get out ofthe rooms very much, but then that's, as soon as I passed that first year, I started
(42:26):
wanting to get into like some more than mysticism, things like that.
So I had been studying with this group called BOTA, Builders of the Additum, and had beenworking with them.
They give you mail order lessons.
So you get like four lessons a month.
Each one's supposed to last a week, has meditations, has a lot that you kind of grow on,and an introduction to Tarot, how it relates to...
(42:54):
uh
astrology, how it relates to the Kabbalah or one of the paths on the tree of life.
And so I got really deep into this, you know, path of mysticism, you know, thishermeticism and this Russian Christianity that was really just beautiful.
so once I had about a year under my belt, I went back to that.
(43:16):
Only this time it was a little different.
My ego was a little smaller and I was better able to kind of understand a lot of thesesymbolisms.
So the
Tarot is uh a huge thing for me.
It's just part of my spirituality.
It's truly the Kabbalah.
(43:36):
It truly is.
mean, it is the paths on the tree of life, the 22 paths.
So having that real experience and then having the spiritual experience of sobriety, Ijust felt like those two spiritual journeys were
very similar, you know, and that's when I decided to try to incorporate the two.
(44:02):
And I didn't know how it was going to work, but everything started just kind of layingout.
And it was almost like the book wrote itself.
I mean, it really felt that way.
You know, I had gone through the first 12 Tarot keys, well, zero the full, the additional12 after that.
(44:22):
And I felt
You know, like this has to be all of them.
I need to use all the keys.
So how am I going to do that?
And then, you know, key 13 and 14 are death and temperance and temperance has a guardianangel, a holy guardian angel on it.
(44:43):
So when I realized that I was able to do dying from our new life and then from our oldlife and then serving the new master.
So that's when 13 and 14 wrote itself.
So now I'm left with the remaining cards, the remaining keys, the next seven.
I'm thinking, how am I gonna incorporate the next seven?
(45:07):
But then I remembered from BOTA that the last seven keys of the true deck correspond towhat we call the seven stages of Unfolded.
The first one starts with the devil.
You look at the key, you don't like what you have as far as reality.
The next one is the towers.
(45:27):
You destroy that reality because now you want something better.
You know, and then the next one is the star and you see her meditating over a pond.
So it's more about putting the imagery back into your head of what, you want to come next.
You know, and it progresses.
so knowing that and seeing that journey with sobriety.
(45:51):
I mean, it just, it was a perfect match for me.
And I had seen some other books that people had written, of course, respondents betweenthe Trouillot and sobriety, but it didn't feel right.
It's like, it didn't feel like they were assigning the keys the way I know them to theproper steps.
uh And although those books are great, I just, I think there was something that I tried totap into that.
(46:20):
It felt meaningful to me.
Yeah.
So the book's called the fool's journey through recovery.
Um, and hopefully we can get links from you to share with the audience.
Uh, for those who are interested in, in following it and getting a copy.
so let's kind of look towards the future a little bit.
(46:41):
Um, if, if someone listening to either of the shows, Gabe's show, uh, Out and About AF orthis one art and the raw and
And they're struggling with kind of the intersection of identity and creativity, mayberecovery.
Um, what would you tell them?
What's your advice for them?
(47:07):
I think it goes back to that separation between consciousness and subconsciousness.
You know, I hear a lot of people say they don't know how to draw, they don't know how topaint.
It's like, have you tried?
You know, I mean, the thing is, you're not going to be perfect.
And it's okay.
You know, in life, we skin our knees as we learn how to walk and there's nothing wrongwith that.
(47:28):
And so a lot of times people could probably benefit from their therapy and they're justtoo afraid to do it.
So my recommendation would be put the paintbrush in the hands of your subconsciousness andget out of the way.
Because if you're going to consciously be looking at things, you're going to think theylook like shit, you're going to be unhappy with them, especially the first things that
(47:51):
come out.
But that's not the point.
The point is you're expressing something about yourself, whether it looks good or not, whocares?
And that's probably the first part of pain.
And as you go, it's going to look better.
I mean, as you go, as your subconsciousness and consciousness begin to communicatetogether, you're just even more of a definition of things.
(48:14):
So I think it's that desire to be perfect that causes so many people and then not reallyjump into it.
Yep, absolutely.
And I think it's also a lesson on vulnerability too, because letting your subconscious goand control the brush might require a little of vulnerability to let that happen.
(48:41):
yeah, yeah, we're afraid of the darkness and subconsciousness represents the darkness.
And so yeah, it's, it's petrifying, especially for somebody who filled all that space withaddiction.
But really for anybody.
oh
um, uh, Gabe, what do you, what do you hope people take away from hearing stories likeCharlie's that kind of recovery and creative expression?
(49:10):
You know, I get a lot of people or, you know, I'm part of an online community and a lot ofit is, uh, they don't know what to do, you know, now that they're not drinking and you
hear it a lot, you know, well, I'm not creative or I'm not, you know, I, I'm too old tostart working out and all of this.
(49:32):
And it's just like, it's one of those limiting beliefs that you tell yourself that
You're not, is there proof?
You know, is there proof that you're not creative?
have you tried, like what Charlie was saying, you know, have you tried drawing?
Like, you know, it really is, you know, and.
(49:54):
When we're in recovery, it's...
We're so used to holding ourselves back of what we can truly be, what we can truly do.
And I think once we get out of our own way is when we can really start to discover who weare.
know, Charlie was talking about the subconscious.
(50:16):
Subconscious is 80 % of your brain, you know, of what it takes in.
You know, your conscious mind is only 20%.
So there's a lot of stuff back there that, you know, that can be brought out that youdon't even know.
And so yeah, think it's just, just do it.
Why not?
I mean, are you going to be?
(50:37):
got a creative bone in their body somewhere.
Like whether it's drawing or baking or
Well, I'll even say like, I'll even say like at at the event.
You know, I there was what I painted or I drew two or three guys and even by the end ofit.
(51:00):
It resembled a person, you know, the first one was not good, but as you go and it's justyeah, you're not going to be great at it.
Yeah, you're not going to be great at it at the beginning, but.
You know, no one's great at anything until they.
put the time and put the effort into it, you know, to really perfect it or get us close toperfection.
(51:21):
So.
Got to put the work in, put one foot in front of the other and just keep going.
Mm-hmm totally agree
Charlie, looking ahead, how do you, how do you want your art to serve both your recoveryand your, your expression of your queer identity?
(51:41):
Or are those separate goals?
I mean, of course I'm still growing in both of those.
I definitely do believe I'm growing in both of those.
You know, lately I've desired a little more romance.
So I'll probably still have dicks, but maybe they'll not be erect.
Maybe it will be more of a some touching and some things like that.
(52:05):
So that is something that I desire just in my life right now is just intimacy.
And I'm not thinking like of a specific person or anything like that, but just intimacy.
And so I could easily see my paintings to where they start taking the shape to wherethere's more intimate moments.
You know, maybe somebody licking on a foot lovingly, know, something, something, you know,still sexual, still erotic, but just with a little more of an expression of that.
(52:35):
So I could, you know, it's always worked.
It has always worked.
Anytime I've ever started painting things, you know, like that.
It has definitely drawn things into my life.
There have been times when I've done paintings where I'll meet somebody later and it looksidentical to something that I've painted before.
(52:56):
wow.
Interesting.
All right.
you excited about creating next?
How does your artistic journey continue from here?
You know, I just did a painting that I absolutely love and it was quite a bit different.
It was of Ricardo that I'd met in Guadalajara and we just, we have a really amazingconnection and I'd taken a picture of him and it was very interesting because it looked
(53:28):
more like...
like a Mexican inspired artwork.
It looked more like something more traditional, Hispanic.
And I really enjoyed it.
So I think a lot of the things I haven't really dove into would be things like depth.
(53:49):
Having more 3D qualities about my artwork, they seem a little two dimensional for me.
And so this was one where you could actually see oh the distance looking different thanwhat was closer.
So maybe I'm getting more into some techniques or maybe seeing em more emotion into thepaintings.
(54:18):
Not so much a raw sexual appetite, but more connection.
Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what you make next, because I love your art and Iappreciate you joining me today for this.
ah But before I let you go, at the end of every episode, I have these 10 questions that Iask every artist and they are based off of the 10 questions from inside the actor studio,
(54:46):
but they've got a little bit of twist to them for creative audience.
So you're ready?
Take me off guard.
Let's see how this works.
What's your favorite artistic medium or tool?
Oil paint.
(55:06):
I love oils.
Absolutely love oils.
What artistic trend or cliche do you wish would disappear?
Uh, I'm gonna be crucified for this one.
I don't like looking at shapes.
I don't like looking at balls and squares and abstract things like that.
(55:32):
I don't feel them.
I don't understand why some of those things exist.
And I've seen people spend some astronomical amounts of money on some of the art that...
Maybe it's a perfect geometrical pattern.
I mean, maybe, but it doesn't speak to me.
(55:52):
It doesn't make me feel something.
And it doesn't make me think of people.
No, no, not for me.
And I hate to say that.
I mean, that's like saying I hate abstract.
I mean, that's not the case.
I like a lot of abstract.
just, don't like, I don't like a non-human.
(56:13):
field of things.
What fuels your creativity the most?
Mm-hmm.
You know, in my erotic phase, it would be when I saw somebody that just caused my jaw todrop, you know?
(56:34):
They just had this essence about them that was just, I wanted to capture, you know?
So it was like the same as, yeah, and it would be the same as like hitting on somebody inthe bar.
I mean, it would just be, you know, and once again, these are...
all shapes and sizes, but if there was something in that essence, you know, that daddyvoice or something, something you just, you you feel, that would be my inspiration.
(57:07):
So that was always something that was kind of drawing me.
uh What sound or noise instantly inspires you?
Cocktail Twins.
That's one of my, yes.
Oh, well I've spent hours painting to that and making some of newer stuff, not some of themore gothic stuff, but they're indecipherable lyrics.
(57:33):
I mean, they're in there.
So I mean, you can sometimes figure out some of the words, but.
There's something about just kind of the losing myself to that.
Just the harmonies.
em I don't like anything too deep, too lyrical.
(57:54):
I do like female vocalists.
And so something comp...
I thought you were going to say daddy voice and that was going to get it.
That's the sound.
Daddy Voice in my private life for sure.
What sound or noise completely kills your focus?
(58:14):
Mmm.
There is music out there that is meant to unalign your chakras.
um
to unalign them or align them on the line.
to shake them out of place, you know?
And, So, Heavy Metal has its place.
(58:39):
Get out of the country.
I'm not a big country fan.
I do not like country music.
I just think it's so predictable and so, you know, just it's a, it fits a genre too much.
Yeah, no hate in the comments.
(58:59):
ah that's going to be hate in the comments.
like to hear about sitting by the lake and drinking beer and I mean, just it gets old.
because what's a bother by you.
beer and learning how to love a little bit.
your favorite word or phrase to include in your work, like a metaphor?
(59:24):
Hmm.
Can you explain that question just a little bit more?
have a specific word or a specific phrase or.
in your
Hmm.
Not everybody does, but some people do.
(59:45):
Yeah.
I like having the touch of the other side, the ghost or spirit or somehow a connection tothe spiritual realm outside of this.
(01:00:10):
And so I think I do try to include that.
If you could see any queer artists living or dead, honored with a major public monument,who would it be?
Some of my favorite artists, I don't know if they were gay or not.
(01:00:31):
So I mean, I really don't know.
The public, hmm.
somebody to choose from.
think we've got some of like Walt Whitman, right?
You know, Leaves of Grass and all that.
(01:00:55):
Oof.
That's usually a hard one for some people.
It's hard to come down to one person.
Yeah, it's hard to think of.
I'm going to say you, Charlie.
I want to made your public monument to you.
I would love that.
you
(01:01:15):
It'll have a big erection.
Yeah.
bronze statue.
uh
What is one profession or creative field you could never see yourself in?
Huh, let's see, um.
Creative field.
Now, what is one profession or creative field you can never see yourself in?
(01:01:42):
You know, that's really interesting because my daytime job is that of an accountant andfinance guy.
And it is so opposite.
Pure left brain, your math, your financial statements at any of the artists side.
And I remember.
(01:02:03):
like art with geometry in it.
Well, that makes a lot of sense.
I don't want those two sides conflicting.
So, you know, I had a therapist once ask me, why am I an accountant?
You know, when I'm obviously completely right-brained.
And I said, well, did you ever see the painting that Picasso did of a loaf of bread, youknow, the still life?
(01:02:28):
And she said, yeah.
And I said, well, it was kind of like that.
I showed that I could do still life, now can I get back to what I enjoy?
So, yeah, so.
as it pays the bills.
It does, it pays the bills.
So that's, that would have been the one, you know, would have been accounting and finance.
(01:02:50):
That's usually the answer I get from creative people is they don't want to do anything inlike technology or finance or something like that.
Um, if your art could take on a life of its own, what form do you think it would take?
(01:03:10):
Sassy drag queen.
That I could see.
Sure.
If it could take on a life of its own.
um
Yeah.
Nothing.
I it speaks.
(01:03:32):
It would have a daddy voice.
It would have a daddy voice.
And then finally, a hundred years from now, what do you hope your art says about you tothose who find it?
(01:03:57):
He had a daddy voice.
would hope it would just represent growing, like going from.
Like I said about the chakras, I wanted to express what growth looks like.
And if you follow the chakras, I'm moving up from the sacral to my gut.
(01:04:23):
I'm going into that little Jupiter center in my tummy.
And then after that, I'll go into that Leo center in my heart.
So I want to see a progression to where if someone studied maybe some of the things that Istudy that they would
recognize it.
I mean, I do that in other art.
(01:04:43):
Like if I see something in a piece of art and I'm like, they kind of studied what I did,you know, and you can just see it.
And I'll give you some examples like Kate Bush, you know, Kate Bush.
um She has this one song.
Yeah, Kate Bush.
And running up that hill, I I loved it back in its original form because to me, that wasan expression of consciousness and subconsciousness.
(01:05:09):
It was the emotional body and the mental mind not being able to comprehend it.
You know, when we were running up that hill, we had no problems.
And, you know, it really does conflict with that mental mind that has to be in control.
Do you want to know?
Well, know that it doesn't hurt me.
You know, so that's that's one of the things.
And so.
(01:05:30):
So I can feel that she's probably studies some of the things I do.
You know, one of her songs invokes angels.
And it's very much a common ritual that people would use.
uh So, and then Peter Gabriel.
Peter Gabriel has so many different undertones that correspond, you You know, the conceptof being one with God.
(01:06:00):
You know, and.
I, what was it when I walk into church or when I walk into heaven, I'll come through thefront door.
You know, so just, uh, as you see those concepts.
So I hope that if someone finds my artwork a hundred years from now, they will know that Istudied and worked and was a part of some pretty magical stuff.
(01:06:33):
Well, you created some pretty magical work.
That's for sure.
um Gabe, any closing thoughts?
No, this was awesome.
I guess I never really dive into art or the art world and of what goes around it, but Iguess in a sense, I kind of dabble in it.
(01:06:58):
And it just kind of shows that it's just kind of art can be anything, really.
Like, I mean.
any type of creativity.
Yeah, like, I mean, I am on the technological side.
I build content, I build websites, and, you know, and it's in a form.
(01:07:19):
It is art, you know.
Yeah.
Someone else takes the pretty pictures.
I just pick them and put them on a website.
no, but this was really awesome.
This was really awesome.
I enjoyed my time.
I always enjoy getting to talk to you, Charlie.
And I've really enjoyed doing the podcast series with you, Gabe.
(01:07:39):
So I really appreciate the collaboration.
I can't wait to, for both of them to be released and, and hear how they go.
Yeah.
that.
Well, thank you both so much.
I think you both have been pretty major influencers in my life.
So I'm really grateful for both of you.
(01:08:05):
Dave, your environments that you create are amazing and the way you create the new artgatherings and.
Help people to be free and those things.
mean, I just, think it is so important because.
People have to get out of their shells at some point and there's nothing wrong with them.
(01:08:26):
And so I think it does really teach them that and gave working with the sobriety and beingable to take what you're going through in order and creating a group so that you can
basically reach out to other people that are kind of going through similar experiences.
It's just it's amazing.
So I really love what you both do.
Appreciate it.
All right.
Uh, welcome back to art and the raw.
Um, I'd like to welcome my cohost today.
Uh, Gabe Vasquez from his podcast Out and About AF Uh, Gabe and I recently talked to withCharlie on his podcast about, uh, Charlie's, um, and Charlie shared his sobriety journey
with us and, um, talked about that because that's the focus of, of Gabe's podcast.
(00:27):
Um, Gabe, tell us a little bit about you and your, your audience and your mission withyour podcast.
out in about AF and talk a little bit about why Charlie's story resonated with yourcommunity.
Yeah, well, David first, thanks for having me be a co-host on here.
I think that's pretty cool.
uh But yeah, no, we had a great conversation with Charlie.
(00:49):
So my podcast is really about sharing stories within the LGBTQIA plus community, uh justaround sobriety.
There's so many different forms of sobriety, whatever your choice of drug or substancewas.
We all have a different story to share no matter how messed up or how great it was.
(01:17):
Someone else out there who needs help can identify or can relate to that.
And so that's kind of the whole idea of the podcast is just to get those stories out andjust realize that you can be sober in a gay community or in the gay community.
and still go out, still have fun, still experience everything everyone else does, justwithout substances.
(01:44):
the more stories we get out there and you know, I met Charlie, what, a years ago, notgonna date ourselves here, uh a few years ago and I don't know if I told you this story,
Charlie, but we were at uh Marty's one time and I went up and I asked you if I can get youa drink.
(02:06):
And you just said no very, you know, very nicely.
I said no and I walked off and I was like, huh, I was like, and I was still drinking atthe time.
And he goes, or someone goes, he doesn't drink.
And in my head, I'm like, why?
Like what?
Like, it just didn't dawn on me, you know, until I got sober.
I'm like, yeah, people do go out.
(02:27):
you know, so it's always, you know, I've always just known Charlie as someone who is soberand, but still goes out, still does all those things that.
I when I was drinking too, but now I just didn't.
And then he put me onto the Topo Chico with the salted rim and you gotta drink.
good.
Yeah.
The lime.
(02:48):
I'm down for that.
That's great.
All right, so let's dive into your creative side a little bit, Charlie, um for folks whohaven't maybe listened to your episode of On Out and About.
um Thinking back to your creative beginnings, um were you making art before your sobrietyjourney, or did your creativity emerge as part of that?
(03:15):
You know, it's really been a whole life and thank you both that, you know, the firstpodcast was really fun to do.
So I'm glad we get to do another one.
So thank you.
uh Really I've been painting.
I don't remember a time in my life when I wasn't drawing, painting or expressing myselfthrough art.
And what I remember most was fourth grade, I think must've been when it really kind ofkicked in.
(03:41):
I remember sketching one of my cousins.
And my mom still has that sketch.
She has it framed in one of her rooms.
And so that was one of the first times I really just started sketching something that Iwas looking at live.
And, you know, that I was always such a creative kid, you know, and that was probably thefirst time I did something that was worth keeping.
(04:04):
mean, I was a little scary as a kid, too.
Don't get me wrong.
I mean, I remember trying to.
A little bit, yeah.
How so?
Well, one example of my creative side being a little dangerous was, uh so same year,fourth grade, I had one of those Fisher Price record players.
(04:30):
And so I made some homemade clay with flour, water, dirt, things like that, and tried tomake it into a pottery wheel.
So I'm putting this wet stuff onto an electric record player.
So.
Always a little creative.
(04:50):
Used to try to make my mom perfumes and things like that with flowers and water and someof her old perfume bottles.
That's funny.
That sounds resourceful to me.
It sounds resourceful.
I was left alone a lot.
Definitely a latchkey kid.
I think a lot of artists probably uh find their creative side uh when they've been leftalone a lot.
(05:18):
So I interrupted you there a little bit.
like continue on about like how you got, how you started your artistic journey and whereyou got started.
It's definitely the start of it.
I remember painting up and through high school, but it never really felt like this was abig thing in my life.
(05:40):
It always just felt like something we all did.
And I did paint once I got out of high school.
Me and one of my best friends, Susie, ended up moving in together.
And that, you know, there was a lot of artwork during that time period.
I definitely wasn't sober.
I remember at one point I just took one of my bed sheets and gessoed it and ended uppainting a Marie Laveau over a cauldron, you know, holding what looked like chamomile
(06:11):
flowers.
And I'm not sure where that piece was.
Yeah, I mean, it was a queen size sheet.
It was a huge painting with lots of nudity.
so, I mean, I just I've always had that.
And it definitely progressed.
I did end up having an art show when I was around.
(06:32):
Must have been around 26, 27.
And I remember that being pretty fun.
had a lot of my friends over for that one, and that was somewhere in.
Downtown Deep Ellum area, but I don't really I don't remember.
I don't even think it's open anymore
So, you know, really all throughout my life, there's just, there's always been an elementof art and that art has always been something to do with what I was going for.
(07:01):
So, the stuff just before I got sober was a little chaotic.
And when I got sober, I didn't think I was going to get back into art again.
You know, it didn't really feel like I was going to have all those abilities.
I was kind of thinking I want to be able to paint.
I want to have the creative side again.
But everything that came after that was much better than the pre-sober Charlie.
(07:26):
Yeah.
So you became sober, I think you said about 10 years ago, 13 years ago.
and it wasn't in Dallas.
I was born in Dallas, but I didn't get sober until I had moved to Houston.
how, how does your art evolve before you got sober and how do you think your sobrietyimpacted and changed your art?
(07:54):
Definitely.
You know, a lot of my life I've always had like this spiritual yearning.
And so when you look back over some of my earlier pieces, you'll see like, you know, anIndian with her hair kind of getting caught up with the moon.
So you'll see a lot of those expressions of spirit that I didn't really know how tocommunicate.
(08:16):
You know, that one with nature and...
You know, it was just so deep in me that it was just really hard to share that withpeople, but art gave me the ability to do that.
And there were a lot of times also I would paint something, not really realizing what Iwas painting, but then afterwards I would look at it and I could see it so easily.
(08:37):
A lot of times my friends would tell me what they saw in it and then it would just kind ofshock me that that was such a huge part of my personality.
and looking at it suddenly it would become clear.
I always felt like art was in a way letting your subconscious take over and trying to getout of the way of it.
You because if you sit there being critical about your art and you use solely yourconscious mind, it's just not gonna, it doesn't work for me.
(09:02):
So that was really, yeah.
art is a way that they express something that they don't even realize about themselves.
Right.
Yeah, I can very much say that's been true to my experience as well.
So I've seen a lot of the art that you've created, um even since we've met the last fewyears, um is kind of spiritually based.
(09:27):
And you mentioned Marie Laveau um and the woman whose hair is getting tied up in the moon.
Was spirituality something that you always incorporated into your art?
You know, it was always just a huge part of me.
mean, I remember being in high school and maybe even middle school, but I just remember ifI was in the library at school and I could find something based on magic or witchcraft,
(09:51):
just, it would feel taboo and it would just be so neat to find those books and to lookthrough them and read them.
So, you know, really early on, yeah, and I was a weird kid.
remember my 13th birthday.
I asked for a cloak.
That's all I want.
(10:11):
It was a black cloak, you know, straight out of Rocky Horror Picture Show.
very well back in the early 90s, because I was kind of the goth kid back then too, but goon, you're cloak.
yeah, definitely.
Yeah, I was gothic.
I was going to Lizard Lounge, the church, you know, definitely.
(10:32):
Loved Peter Murphy, loved Susie and the Banshees.
And even when I look back on Susie and the Banshees and listen to the music, everything isabout like contacting the other side, spiritual connection, ghost.
And, you know, it's just such a common element.
And so I've always been...
I've always felt that I was a huge part of that, being able to walk in two differentplanes.
(10:56):
I mean, one of the times, I think the first time I had an out-of-body experience was justbefore I became, well, before I got diagnosed as being diabetic.
You know, I was going in and out of the doctors quite a bit and we couldn't figure outwhat was wrong with me, but I was constantly sick.
And...
You know, after the last time being there, the doctor sat down with me and my mom anddiscussed what it meant to have psychosomatic illness.
(11:22):
And so we decided we were not going to go back to the doctors.
We were going to do everything naturally that we could.
And then I remember my mom looking at me and I was on the other side of the room and Icould see her talking to me.
And the next thing I knew I was in my body looking at her and I said, we need to go todoctor now.
And so, you know, being diabetic, you know, it's always felt kind of like I was inbetween.
(11:47):
You know, I mean, I can't exist without the need of, you know, medicines.
So it always did feel like it was kind of an in-between place.
Plus insulin always affected my dreams and things like that as well.
So at, yeah.
So at that time, I think I really did need a little extra to get through life.
(12:08):
And it was readily available.
How do you think your, your gay identity impacted that or, or did it, how did it impactyour art m pre sobriety and after.
Pre-sobriety, I didn't really do too much uh erotic art.
(12:31):
I mean, there was just a little bit, I had some nudity, but I didn't really do anythingerotic, with the exception of dating a guy and painting ourselves up and rolling around on
canvases and things like that, which is always fun, of course.
Always a great idea for a second date.
lists.
To try that.
You
Yeah, so one particular boyfriend that was my second date was uh we had planned itbeforehand and we just went into the house, painted ourselves and I had a girlfriend of
(13:03):
mine playing the violin while we did that.
So that was the second date, you know, and we ended up being together for about threeyears.
Yeah, yeah, I wish I still had those photographs.
Those were pretty amazing.
So you just got stripped down naked, got painted all up and this girl sitting over in thecorner playing a violin while y'all are.
(13:26):
Yeah, absolutely.
It was pretty creative.
Yeah, and it worked.
I kept them for three years now.
So that was a good one.
there was always candles in my room.
I always got so many candles.
Absolutely.
You know, so I didn't really see it.
in the nineties and not have candles everywhere.
(13:48):
oh
with the music.
No.
So, yeah, so that was really one of the few times it was kind of a gay experience with theartwork.
I mean, I didn't really have a lot of eroticism back then.
And it wasn't really until after I got sober that, you you could really see a progressionthroughout my life and in my artwork as well.
(14:15):
Um, Gabe, you, you work with a lot of people navigating alcohol free living.
Um, what do you see in terms of how creativity shows up in people's recovery?
Well, one is they actually find creativity.
Like, because we're, you know, we drown, we use alcohol or drugs, whatever it is, youknow, as a mask or a way to cope with things.
(14:41):
you know, once we get, once we get that off, you know, out of our system, it's like ourbrain starts healing, you know, we get to tap into new opportunities.
Sometimes people use it as a way to not drink or to not use.
And, uh
Like I even remember for myself, music, like really listening to music and really, reallylistening to music, like the lyrics of it all.
(15:10):
it's like, it just hits differently now, you know?
And I got into crocheting, you know, because I was like, I don't wanna, like I need to dosomething with my hands.
a creative bone in your body.
Look at that.
Yeah, that's creative.
I'm gonna expect one.
Not yet.
(15:32):
Soon as you make those jock straps and crochet, I want one of those.
Yeah
did make one.
I did make a jockstrap.
That I did make.
But no, think it just allows it because we have, A, we have more time on our hands, right,that we have to fill and it's what can we do?
And for myself, I have ADHD, so I'm constantly going around what can I do, what can I do?
(15:58):
And so, yeah, I've heard a lot of people dive, you know, they dive back into coloringbooks.
just so they can have something to do.
So I think it, I mean, it just opens up doors when you get that out of your system.
Does that resonate with you, Charlie?
I mean, yes, absolutely.
And before sobriety, I think my art was sporadic.
(16:23):
mean, can't see a linear progression in my art like you can after I got sober.
And a lot of people say that you kind of emotionally stunt yourself whenever you fall intoaddiction.
And so that's.
Probably the biggest part of it was I don't think I was growing in a linear way,especially with my spirituality.
(16:45):
It was kind of just all over the place.
But then once I got sober, you can definitely see these periods throughout my artworkwhere they're similar, they're getting better, and then sometimes the subject will change.
And it's what I'm working on at that point.
um Walk us through your creative process now.
um How do you approach your paintings today?
(17:13):
So right now I'm doing a lot of erotic art and that includes hard ons and all that goodstuff.
So normally...
You know, I'm not sure how the inspiration hits.
Normally it's somebody that I have an admiration for or that I see something in them.
(17:37):
um And I've done paintings of all kinds of different guys, you know, so it's, I'm not surewhat it is, but it is normally a time I'll walk up to someone and say, you know, I would
like to paint you, would you be up for doing a photo shoot?
And so normally I'm the one that will take the pictures of anything that I paint, know,that's kind of one of my things.
(18:03):
However, during COVID there were a few times when I painted and it was just pictures thatpeople had sent to me.
But yeah, I mean it's...
I mean, think the creative process happens a long time before that for me.
I do think it's internal and it has to get out.
(18:24):
That was one of the things that you see as huge shifts.
um That's one of the huge shifts I'm talking about with the emotional growth.
When I first got sober, I didn't really paint for the first year and then it just hit me.
And a lot of the artwork I was doing was based on the tarot.
So was doing like a lot of the Tarot know, the empress, the high priestess, the fool.
(18:49):
But my version of the fool was, you know, the fool walking out on a golden hand that wassymbolic of the Buddha and knowing that the fall was going to be okay.
So you see a progression of those and you see, you know, some of my paintings which hadangelic forces.
And then there was a huge shift.
(19:10):
And I was in...
I was in a marriage for a while.
You know, it was a seven year relationship.
But at some point the sexual side just died.
You know, it just wasn't there anymore.
And I tried to make peace with that and I tried to be, you know, in a healthy relationshipand kept sacrificing, you know, the sexual side of myself because a relationship was the
(19:39):
most important thing.
And also I understood the lack of desire on his end because, know, and you know, lot ofmeds make it to where you just lose your sexual appetite completely.
So I was very understanding and I didn't think something like that was so important thatit should shape a relationship.
(20:02):
Well, then I was doing some work basically, and I'll try to make it simple.
You know, I was doing some work on my chakras.
And when doing work like that, one of the things I do is I try to build the energy andthen I try to release it.
And I try to incorporate it into my life.
And everything was fine until I got to that, uh, that sacral chakra, you know, the onethat's sexual.
(20:28):
And once I felt that I had fully charged that my life changed pretty drastically.
It was as though, uh, I realized you can't feed a lion lettuce.
And that's what I'd been trying to do for a very long time.
And I was actually starving myself and sex is a huge part of who I am.
(20:49):
And so that that's when I started painting a little bit differently.
And I think one of the first paintings that I did after that experience was it was amonkey holding a giant rooster, a cock.
So he's holding this.
The cock is as big as the monkey is.
And he's
Guy has little hands just trying to hold onto it and the expression on his face ispriceless.
(21:12):
mean, he's overwhelmed and he doesn't know what he's gonna do with this.
And he realizes it's just as big as he is.
So there was a lot of symbolism in that one.
And I don't think I really realized that when I first painted it how symbolic that was ofmy sexual appetite, which had been suppressed, which is now as big as me and I can't
(21:35):
contain it anymore.
Was that painting pre or post sobriety?
That was about probably about two years into sobriety, maybe a little bit longer thanthat.
mean, because the first stretch of paintings you have once I got sober after a year wasthe spiritual stuff.
(21:59):
And then, and I'm not going to separate spiritual from the spirituality of eroticism, buteroticism was added about two to three years into that.
I've always believed that erotic energy and spiritual energy are closely tied together.
Uh, anyways, so, I mean, that totally tracks.
(22:21):
that's a huge thing to tap on.
I think it's important for not only artists, but also occultists and people that studymagic.
You know, um it's difficult to live in a kind of like a Puritan type of surroundingwhenever you are an artist or when you have ADHD and need to be creative.
(22:44):
Or it's just, it's difficult.
And I think one of the big parts is that, you you come to understand by working withenergy that the sapral chakra is the battery source for all creativity.
It's procreation.
It's casting light into darkness.
(23:07):
And that's what creativity is, you know, and I can go into some really deep stuff on thatone, but we'll kind of stop it there.
But sexuality and.
yeah, this could fill up a few of them.
But that's the thing is that, you know, that's the source of creativity.
Everything that is a manifestation of that creative energy and of that procreation typeenergy, we just transform it into different things.
(23:36):
So vulnerability is a topic that's come up a number of times with a number of interviewsI've had with artists doing this podcast and, doing erotic art, I think requires a little
bit of vulnerability.
(23:57):
how has your relationship with vulnerability changed through both your art and yourrecovery making your,
art making and your recovery.
I think one of the big things about erotic art is not being ashamed of it.
And I think that is, yeah, I mean.
(24:21):
Yeah, like my mom was, I had, I was gonna use her housekeeper to kind of do somestraightening up around the house and she said, well, make sure you turn all your
paintings backwards.
You know, so that's a common thing.
And it's just, it can be interesting when I have some people that are close to me thatjust aren't into it.
(24:46):
You know, I'm trying to shield myself from that.
I am part of a spiritual community and, uh you know, recently.
But somebody did tell me that, you know, one of the things they were kind of looking atwas the artwork that I've been posting.
And, you know, she's somebody I look up to, she said, you know, I love your art, I have anart degree, accustomed to that and I think it's beautiful, but a lot of people around us
(25:15):
aren't.
And so just be careful of that.
Yeah, so that.
I think the vulnerability that comes with my erotic art is being proud of it and not beingshy from it and not feeling like there's something wrong with it.
I mean, it's the same things you do with sex.
mean, the human body, the cock, you know, all of it is spiritual.
(25:41):
There's nothing broken about eroticism, sexuality.
It doesn't need to be hidden, you know, and that's just...
It's a huge thing and you struggle with it.
Or I struggle with it.
So I was gonna ask really quick.
I guess I'll provide some context before I ask the question.
(26:05):
So when I was drinking, I was very small.
Like I didn't wanna stand out too much.
But when I drank, I was able to do that.
I was able to, know, cause I had a lot of social anxiety, right?
And growing up in a small West Texas town, scared.
for someone to find out if I was gay or not.
(26:26):
And so I developed a lot of social anxiety and alcohol made me feel sexual, feelattractive, be able to talk to people.
And so when I gave that up, it gave me the confidence.
And when I gave it up, I was like, how am I gonna get confidence?
(26:47):
And I slowly but surely go out to a pool party and I didn't drink that night.
you know, great, you know, and I started building confidence and I built confidence inmyself that I, like I wanted to start doing new things, trying new things.
And one of them was uh going to one of David's uh Salon Naturale uh events.
(27:12):
And you know, it's the nudest art event and I've never, you know, I've gone to poolparties where yes, I've lost my clothes many a times, but not to an actual nudist event.
And, uh...
at those parties with you, I remember.
Yeah, couple of them might have been at my house
But what I was like.
to bust you, but yeah, it was at your house.
(27:35):
yeah, yeah, yeah.
No, no, no shame there.
Um, and I've gone sober now to, you know, to David's house, you know, with a pool partyand been naked and stuff.
And it's, but I got to a point now to where it's like, I don't really care what people,like I found freedom in sobriety of, I don't accept me as I am basically.
(27:59):
And so my question is like, do you think that has anything to do with
like how you do your art now is like, do you think sobriety had something like to helpwith that of like dropping that veil of like, what are people gonna think and everything
like that?
Absolutely, yeah.
(28:20):
mean, quite a bit.
You know, along with addiction is also codependency.
And so when you get out of addiction, you really have to start dealing with codependencyand kind of breaking that cycle as well.
So, you know, to get to the part where you're finding sexual liberation, you know, beingable to have sex with someone but not being responsible for them.
(28:46):
you know, just to be able to have the experience of two adults being able to touch oneanother and not having to make sure they go to college or, you know, any of the things
that come with it.
You know, that's huge.
And getting to the point to where you can stand on your feet and enjoy it.
And especially without the excuse of having something in your system is pretty amazing.
(29:10):
Because at some point you have to take...
I mean, you have to take responsibility.
I mean, you do have to eventually say, this is a part of me, especially if you have noother way to release it.
So I think that's one of the big things about sobriety is realizing that you have toaccept that it's a part of you or, you know, these things underneath the surface really
(29:32):
get out of hand and come out in ugly ways.
Alcohol is a great excuse.
You know, I was drunk and that's why, you know, I jumped into the middle of the orgy andnot anymore.
Now I just jumped into the middle of the orgy.
Yeah.
hear.
Yeah, no, just yeah like I found like I just I Was able to there's just yeah now a senseof freedom of you know, I can try these new things and I can tell people that I normally
(30:04):
wouldn't tell that I'm going to like this kind of event You know where before it was alllike shameful and stuff.
So it's like I've like I've ran out of like fucks to give I guess, you know what?
I'm like sober now and
I'm gonna do what I want because now, because A, I've worked my ass off to stay sober.
(30:27):
So I'm gonna go out and celebrate and try new things.
So yeah.
Absolutely.
Yeah.
And you're, you're, you're much younger than I am Gabe, but, uh, that, uh, lack of give afuck also happens with age too.
Um, I think that's part, that's part of like the older I got, the less I cared what otherpeople thought about what I was doing.
(30:54):
So.
Yeah.
Well, we'll see.
We'll see.
we'll see, we'll see you at the next naked salon.
So, um, I've heard this phrase before that in recovery, there's often this talk about a, areality check or pink cloud is a phrase I've heard someone referred to it before.
(31:20):
I don't know if you've heard that phrase.
Um, have you experienced similar cycles like that with your
your artistic practice.
I made him think.
Yeah.
(31:40):
wow.
Yeah.
Definitely.
Yeah, there've been a couple, absolutely.
You know, the pink cloud thing was really special to me in sobriety.
It was really funny because I remember one meeting where I just was thinking, you know,whatever happened to my pink cloud.
(32:02):
And then at the end of the meeting, this guy in front of me hands me a little token and onit, it says pink cloud.
wow.
You know, yeah, so I always had little moments like that.
uh There were a few times when I made pretty big leaks, you know, like going from acrylicto oil or like painting a lion.
(32:31):
Like I remember there was a time where I wanted to paint a lion on one of my pieces and
I'm sitting there thinking, I don't know how to draw a lion.
I don't know how to paint a lion.
And then I had to think, you know, I don't not know how to draw a You know, I don't notknow how to draw a lion.
So, you know, it was a change of perception.
(32:51):
And then, you know, when you do something like that and you look back and you see it, youknow, overcoming that doubt, overcoming that fear, it's, it definitely feels like a pink
cloud.
It does feel like something that's kind of special.
Interesting.
What about uh creative community?
(33:13):
How much of a role has creative community played in your artistic journey?
You know, I wish that side was a little...
I work from home, so in a typical day, I'm at my computer, I get off work, I either go sitin my bedroom or I'll occasionally pick up a paintbrush or watch TV or, well, I've got a
(33:41):
book that I'm working on too, so, but as far as connecting with other artists, it's alwaysbeen difficult for me.
And I'm gonna, this might end up going long winded, I'm not sure.
uh
It's kind of the same as someone who...
(34:02):
is spiritually evolved, but then everybody else kind of contributes and helps them withthe mundane reality.
Well, I don't have a separation between the two.
I feel like the mundane reality is part of my spirituality.
So I don't try to stay in like this preacher, priest type of setting and ask fordonations.
(34:22):
You know, so for me, I guess there's always been this concept for me that art is not afull-time thing.
It's always been that we live life and we paint what we're going through, but it's notlife within itself.
And I don't know if that's going to change at some point.
(34:43):
I I know other artists do it, it's their entire life.
But to me, I can't imagine living in a world of only art.
So I guess in some ways I'm not really a part of those communities.
So, and I'm not sure what that is.
you mentioned living your life and then art kind of comes in when you're going throughsomething.
(35:09):
I forget exactly how you phrased it.
So do you find then that you were drawn to art?
not knowing that you're you're going through something that you need art to express.
Do you go through phases where you're doing lots of art and then you're not
I have inspirations where I will turn out pieces and pieces and pieces.
(35:34):
And normally it is when I'm going through a struggle or a growth and yeah, you know thatit's interesting because I've filled up a whole art studio before in a matter of two
months and then I would go a year without painting.
So yeah, there's always those inspirations and
(35:55):
It is interesting to look back on something and to see, you know, this huge subconsciouspicture emerge that you had no idea was trying to come out of you.
So yeah, those are just, it's pretty profound.
So yeah, I do think of, I kind of think that.
(36:21):
I feel like it almost sounds like journaling in a sense.
It's like when you're going through something, want to, you know, jot it down and...
But no, that's interesting.
I've never really thought about like painting as a way to express what you're goingthrough.
I understand, you know, a lot of people do it, but like to go through those time periodswhere it's, you know, kind of a moment, it's interesting.
(36:49):
Well, to me, always, I see it as shedding skin.
So I kind of see it like a serpent and I can't grow until I shed the skin.
And so shedding the skin might mean that, yeah, it's huge.
You know, it might be that I finally subconsciously understand what this subconsciouspatterning looks like.
(37:11):
You know, I can finally see it.
And so that's, that's when I'm able to grow again is I
I kind of embody it.
See ya.
Yeah, Gabe, you mentioned journaling.
you, do you journal occasionally?
Yeah, not as much as I would like, but early on in my sobriety journey, I was writingsomething down every day.
(37:42):
And when I didn't have it, I wrote down three things that I was grateful for just early inthe morning, kind of set the tone for the rest of the day.
But yeah.
As it's really transformative, like I'll be stressed.
(38:03):
I usually do it when I'm stressed now.
And as I'm writing, as the process goes on, I can literally feel it, that stress justleaving, you know, and kind of leave it all out there.
And so it's been one of the things that I've.
I don't like doing the most, but it's one of the best things that works for me when I doit.
(38:30):
Yeah.
there's an entire chapter in, um, the artists way.
think Charlie's familiar with it.
on, uh, a practice called morning pages.
the goal of morning pages is for you to sit down almost the first thing you do everymorning.
(38:52):
Um, and just write stream of consciousness, three pages handwritten every morning.
Just whatever comes across your brain, even if it's, if it's nothing, you just keepwriting.
I have nothing.
have nothing.
have nothing.
But then something will come up and you'll want to write about it.
(39:14):
And doing that every day, uh, has this amazing effect of getting these things out of yourhead that are blocking your creative process.
Um, so I can definitely see where you've seen some of that gave in your experience withjournaling.
(39:35):
and it's, there's a spiritual side to that, think too, Charlie with, with doing art aswell.
Definitely.
know, and talking about journaling, that's interesting too, because I had never reallythought about that.
That was huge, especially through high school and early college years of journaling.
(39:56):
And when you talk about the spiritual side of that, I'm going to go into a weird referencenow.
uh The books by Carlos Castaneda.
the Eagles gift and all these other books, while he's learning shamanism through histeacher, Don Juan, he would at times get his reality so tested that he felt like he was
(40:19):
gonna throw up because reality had just shifted for him.
Don Juan would say, right.
And so he'd have to sit down and he'd start writing and then he'd be okay again.
That he would be so off balance that he would just be sick.
So, you know, there's a writing that comes along with that type of spirituality.
(40:43):
There's also writing like.
uh
Oh, letters to a young poet?
I think I've heard of that.
Yeah.
So I mean, those were always so interesting.
But even in that one, you know, it's diving into what are the reasons you write for andyes, I love that.
(41:08):
So speaking of writing, you have a book that you wrote.
I have a copy of your book.
Um, tell us about your journey writing this book.
and tell us a little bit about the book.
It's it's, it's got that, that fool, uh, tarot card on the front of it that you weretalking about earlier.
(41:33):
Yes.
So that was really fun.
I mean, I'm rewriting it right now.
I've never actually published the book.
I did do a self publishing through Barnes and Noble.
So it is available there, but I've never done it in like Kindle format or any of those.
So right now I'm going back through chapter and chapter and just making it a little morerelevant for where I am now.
(41:57):
And I am done with the English version.
I'm wanting to do it in Spanish too.
um
But it's a, I feel like it is now a polished product.
It just needs to be put into some different formats so that I can really launch it.
So that book, you know, I was, so the first year of sobriety, I didn't really get out ofthe rooms very much, but then that's, as soon as I passed that first year, I started
(42:26):
wanting to get into like some more than mysticism, things like that.
So I had been studying with this group called BOTA, Builders of the Additum, and had beenworking with them.
They give you mail order lessons.
So you get like four lessons a month.
Each one's supposed to last a week, has meditations, has a lot that you kind of grow on,and an introduction to Tarot, how it relates to...
(42:54):
uh
astrology, how it relates to the Kabbalah or one of the paths on the tree of life.
And so I got really deep into this, you know, path of mysticism, you know, thishermeticism and this Russian Christianity that was really just beautiful.
so once I had about a year under my belt, I went back to that.
(43:16):
Only this time it was a little different.
My ego was a little smaller and I was better able to kind of understand a lot of thesesymbolisms.
So the
Tarot is uh a huge thing for me.
It's just part of my spirituality.
It's truly the Kabbalah.
(43:36):
It truly is.
mean, it is the paths on the tree of life, the 22 paths.
So having that real experience and then having the spiritual experience of sobriety, Ijust felt like those two spiritual journeys were
very similar, you know, and that's when I decided to try to incorporate the two.
(44:02):
And I didn't know how it was going to work, but everything started just kind of layingout.
And it was almost like the book wrote itself.
I mean, it really felt that way.
You know, I had gone through the first 12 Tarot keys, well, zero the full, the additional12 after that.
(44:22):
And I felt
You know, like this has to be all of them.
I need to use all the keys.
So how am I going to do that?
And then, you know, key 13 and 14 are death and temperance and temperance has a guardianangel, a holy guardian angel on it.
(44:43):
So when I realized that I was able to do dying from our new life and then from our oldlife and then serving the new master.
So that's when 13 and 14 wrote itself.
So now I'm left with the remaining cards, the remaining keys, the next seven.
I'm thinking, how am I gonna incorporate the next seven?
(45:07):
But then I remembered from BOTA that the last seven keys of the true deck correspond towhat we call the seven stages of Unfolded.
The first one starts with the devil.
You look at the key, you don't like what you have as far as reality.
The next one is the towers.
(45:27):
You destroy that reality because now you want something better.
You know, and then the next one is the star and you see her meditating over a pond.
So it's more about putting the imagery back into your head of what, you want to come next.
You know, and it progresses.
so knowing that and seeing that journey with sobriety.
(45:51):
I mean, it just, it was a perfect match for me.
And I had seen some other books that people had written, of course, respondents betweenthe Trouillot and sobriety, but it didn't feel right.
It's like, it didn't feel like they were assigning the keys the way I know them to theproper steps.
uh And although those books are great, I just, I think there was something that I tried totap into that.
(46:20):
It felt meaningful to me.
Yeah.
So the book's called the fool's journey through recovery.
Um, and hopefully we can get links from you to share with the audience.
Uh, for those who are interested in, in following it and getting a copy.
so let's kind of look towards the future a little bit.
(46:41):
Um, if, if someone listening to either of the shows, Gabe's show, uh, Out and About AF orthis one art and the raw and
And they're struggling with kind of the intersection of identity and creativity, mayberecovery.
Um, what would you tell them?
What's your advice for them?
(47:07):
I think it goes back to that separation between consciousness and subconsciousness.
You know, I hear a lot of people say they don't know how to draw, they don't know how topaint.
It's like, have you tried?
You know, I mean, the thing is, you're not going to be perfect.
And it's okay.
You know, in life, we skin our knees as we learn how to walk and there's nothing wrongwith that.
(47:28):
And so a lot of times people could probably benefit from their therapy and they're justtoo afraid to do it.
So my recommendation would be put the paintbrush in the hands of your subconsciousness andget out of the way.
Because if you're going to consciously be looking at things, you're going to think theylook like shit, you're going to be unhappy with them, especially the first things that
(47:51):
come out.
But that's not the point.
The point is you're expressing something about yourself, whether it looks good or not, whocares?
And that's probably the first part of pain.
And as you go, it's going to look better.
I mean, as you go, as your subconsciousness and consciousness begin to communicatetogether, you're just even more of a definition of things.
(48:14):
So I think it's that desire to be perfect that causes so many people and then not reallyjump into it.
Yep, absolutely.
And I think it's also a lesson on vulnerability too, because letting your subconscious goand control the brush might require a little of vulnerability to let that happen.
(48:41):
yeah, yeah, we're afraid of the darkness and subconsciousness represents the darkness.
And so yeah, it's, it's petrifying, especially for somebody who filled all that space withaddiction.
But really for anybody.
oh
um, uh, Gabe, what do you, what do you hope people take away from hearing stories likeCharlie's that kind of recovery and creative expression?
(49:10):
You know, I get a lot of people or, you know, I'm part of an online community and a lot ofit is, uh, they don't know what to do, you know, now that they're not drinking and you
hear it a lot, you know, well, I'm not creative or I'm not, you know, I, I'm too old tostart working out and all of this.
(49:32):
And it's just like, it's one of those limiting beliefs that you tell yourself that
You're not, is there proof?
You know, is there proof that you're not creative?
have you tried, like what Charlie was saying, you know, have you tried drawing?
Like, you know, it really is, you know, and.
(49:54):
When we're in recovery, it's...
We're so used to holding ourselves back of what we can truly be, what we can truly do.
And I think once we get out of our own way is when we can really start to discover who weare.
know, Charlie was talking about the subconscious.
(50:16):
Subconscious is 80 % of your brain, you know, of what it takes in.
You know, your conscious mind is only 20%.
So there's a lot of stuff back there that, you know, that can be brought out that youdon't even know.
And so yeah, think it's just, just do it.
Why not?
I mean, are you going to be?
(50:37):
got a creative bone in their body somewhere.
Like whether it's drawing or baking or
Well, I'll even say like, I'll even say like at at the event.
You know, I there was what I painted or I drew two or three guys and even by the end ofit.
(51:00):
It resembled a person, you know, the first one was not good, but as you go and it's justyeah, you're not going to be great at it.
Yeah, you're not going to be great at it at the beginning, but.
You know, no one's great at anything until they.
put the time and put the effort into it, you know, to really perfect it or get us close toperfection.
(51:21):
So.
Got to put the work in, put one foot in front of the other and just keep going.
Mm-hmm totally agree
Charlie, looking ahead, how do you, how do you want your art to serve both your recoveryand your, your expression of your queer identity?
(51:41):
Or are those separate goals?
I mean, of course I'm still growing in both of those.
I definitely do believe I'm growing in both of those.
You know, lately I've desired a little more romance.
So I'll probably still have dicks, but maybe they'll not be erect.
Maybe it will be more of a some touching and some things like that.
(52:05):
So that is something that I desire just in my life right now is just intimacy.
And I'm not thinking like of a specific person or anything like that, but just intimacy.
And so I could easily see my paintings to where they start taking the shape to wherethere's more intimate moments.
You know, maybe somebody licking on a foot lovingly, know, something, something, you know,still sexual, still erotic, but just with a little more of an expression of that.
(52:35):
So I could, you know, it's always worked.
It has always worked.
Anytime I've ever started painting things, you know, like that.
It has definitely drawn things into my life.
There have been times when I've done paintings where I'll meet somebody later and it looksidentical to something that I've painted before.
(52:56):
wow.
Interesting.
All right.
you excited about creating next?
How does your artistic journey continue from here?
You know, I just did a painting that I absolutely love and it was quite a bit different.
It was of Ricardo that I'd met in Guadalajara and we just, we have a really amazingconnection and I'd taken a picture of him and it was very interesting because it looked
(53:28):
more like...
like a Mexican inspired artwork.
It looked more like something more traditional, Hispanic.
And I really enjoyed it.
So I think a lot of the things I haven't really dove into would be things like depth.
(53:49):
Having more 3D qualities about my artwork, they seem a little two dimensional for me.
And so this was one where you could actually see oh the distance looking different thanwhat was closer.
So maybe I'm getting more into some techniques or maybe seeing em more emotion into thepaintings.
(54:18):
Not so much a raw sexual appetite, but more connection.
Well, I'm looking forward to seeing what you make next, because I love your art and Iappreciate you joining me today for this.
ah But before I let you go, at the end of every episode, I have these 10 questions that Iask every artist and they are based off of the 10 questions from inside the actor studio,
(54:46):
but they've got a little bit of twist to them for creative audience.
So you're ready?
Take me off guard.
Let's see how this works.
What's your favorite artistic medium or tool?
Oil paint.
(55:06):
I love oils.
Absolutely love oils.
What artistic trend or cliche do you wish would disappear?
Uh, I'm gonna be crucified for this one.
I don't like looking at shapes.
I don't like looking at balls and squares and abstract things like that.
(55:32):
I don't feel them.
I don't understand why some of those things exist.
And I've seen people spend some astronomical amounts of money on some of the art that...
Maybe it's a perfect geometrical pattern.
I mean, maybe, but it doesn't speak to me.
(55:52):
It doesn't make me feel something.
And it doesn't make me think of people.
No, no, not for me.
And I hate to say that.
I mean, that's like saying I hate abstract.
I mean, that's not the case.
I like a lot of abstract.
just, don't like, I don't like a non-human.
(56:13):
field of things.
What fuels your creativity the most?
Mm-hmm.
You know, in my erotic phase, it would be when I saw somebody that just caused my jaw todrop, you know?
(56:34):
They just had this essence about them that was just, I wanted to capture, you know?
So it was like the same as, yeah, and it would be the same as like hitting on somebody inthe bar.
I mean, it would just be, you know, and once again, these are...
all shapes and sizes, but if there was something in that essence, you know, that daddyvoice or something, something you just, you you feel, that would be my inspiration.
(57:07):
So that was always something that was kind of drawing me.
uh What sound or noise instantly inspires you?
Cocktail Twins.
That's one of my, yes.
Oh, well I've spent hours painting to that and making some of newer stuff, not some of themore gothic stuff, but they're indecipherable lyrics.
(57:33):
I mean, they're in there.
So I mean, you can sometimes figure out some of the words, but.
There's something about just kind of the losing myself to that.
Just the harmonies.
em I don't like anything too deep, too lyrical.
(57:54):
I do like female vocalists.
And so something comp...
I thought you were going to say daddy voice and that was going to get it.
That's the sound.
Daddy Voice in my private life for sure.
What sound or noise completely kills your focus?
(58:14):
Mmm.
There is music out there that is meant to unalign your chakras.
um
to unalign them or align them on the line.
to shake them out of place, you know?
And, So, Heavy Metal has its place.
(58:39):
Get out of the country.
I'm not a big country fan.
I do not like country music.
I just think it's so predictable and so, you know, just it's a, it fits a genre too much.
Yeah, no hate in the comments.
(58:59):
ah that's going to be hate in the comments.
like to hear about sitting by the lake and drinking beer and I mean, just it gets old.
because what's a bother by you.
beer and learning how to love a little bit.
your favorite word or phrase to include in your work, like a metaphor?
(59:24):
Hmm.
Can you explain that question just a little bit more?
have a specific word or a specific phrase or.
in your
Hmm.
Not everybody does, but some people do.
(59:45):
Yeah.
I like having the touch of the other side, the ghost or spirit or somehow a connection tothe spiritual realm outside of this.
(01:00:10):
And so I think I do try to include that.
If you could see any queer artists living or dead, honored with a major public monument,who would it be?
Some of my favorite artists, I don't know if they were gay or not.
(01:00:31):
So I mean, I really don't know.
The public, hmm.
somebody to choose from.
think we've got some of like Walt Whitman, right?
You know, Leaves of Grass and all that.
(01:00:55):
Oof.
That's usually a hard one for some people.
It's hard to come down to one person.
Yeah, it's hard to think of.
I'm going to say you, Charlie.
I want to made your public monument to you.
I would love that.
you
(01:01:15):
It'll have a big erection.
Yeah.
bronze statue.
uh
What is one profession or creative field you could never see yourself in?
Huh, let's see, um.
Creative field.
Now, what is one profession or creative field you can never see yourself in?
(01:01:42):
You know, that's really interesting because my daytime job is that of an accountant andfinance guy.
And it is so opposite.
Pure left brain, your math, your financial statements at any of the artists side.
And I remember.
(01:02:03):
like art with geometry in it.
Well, that makes a lot of sense.
I don't want those two sides conflicting.
So, you know, I had a therapist once ask me, why am I an accountant?
You know, when I'm obviously completely right-brained.
And I said, well, did you ever see the painting that Picasso did of a loaf of bread, youknow, the still life?
(01:02:28):
And she said, yeah.
And I said, well, it was kind of like that.
I showed that I could do still life, now can I get back to what I enjoy?
So, yeah, so.
as it pays the bills.
It does, it pays the bills.
So that's, that would have been the one, you know, would have been accounting and finance.
(01:02:50):
That's usually the answer I get from creative people is they don't want to do anything inlike technology or finance or something like that.
Um, if your art could take on a life of its own, what form do you think it would take?
(01:03:10):
Sassy drag queen.
That I could see.
Sure.
If it could take on a life of its own.
um
Yeah.
Nothing.
I it speaks.
(01:03:32):
It would have a daddy voice.
It would have a daddy voice.
And then finally, a hundred years from now, what do you hope your art says about you tothose who find it?
(01:03:57):
He had a daddy voice.
would hope it would just represent growing, like going from.
Like I said about the chakras, I wanted to express what growth looks like.
And if you follow the chakras, I'm moving up from the sacral to my gut.
(01:04:23):
I'm going into that little Jupiter center in my tummy.
And then after that, I'll go into that Leo center in my heart.
So I want to see a progression to where if someone studied maybe some of the things that Istudy that they would
recognize it.
I mean, I do that in other art.
(01:04:43):
Like if I see something in a piece of art and I'm like, they kind of studied what I did,you know, and you can just see it.
And I'll give you some examples like Kate Bush, you know, Kate Bush.
um She has this one song.
Yeah, Kate Bush.
And running up that hill, I I loved it back in its original form because to me, that wasan expression of consciousness and subconsciousness.
(01:05:09):
It was the emotional body and the mental mind not being able to comprehend it.
You know, when we were running up that hill, we had no problems.
And, you know, it really does conflict with that mental mind that has to be in control.
Do you want to know?
Well, know that it doesn't hurt me.
You know, so that's that's one of the things.
And so.
(01:05:30):
So I can feel that she's probably studies some of the things I do.
You know, one of her songs invokes angels.
And it's very much a common ritual that people would use.
uh So, and then Peter Gabriel.
Peter Gabriel has so many different undertones that correspond, you You know, the conceptof being one with God.
(01:06:00):
You know, and.
I, what was it when I walk into church or when I walk into heaven, I'll come through thefront door.
You know, so just, uh, as you see those concepts.
So I hope that if someone finds my artwork a hundred years from now, they will know that Istudied and worked and was a part of some pretty magical stuff.
(01:06:33):
Well, you created some pretty magical work.
That's for sure.
um Gabe, any closing thoughts?
No, this was awesome.
I guess I never really dive into art or the art world and of what goes around it, but Iguess in a sense, I kind of dabble in it.
(01:06:58):
And it just kind of shows that it's just kind of art can be anything, really.
Like, I mean.
any type of creativity.
Yeah, like, I mean, I am on the technological side.
I build content, I build websites, and, you know, and it's in a form.
(01:07:19):
It is art, you know.
Yeah.
Someone else takes the pretty pictures.
I just pick them and put them on a website.
no, but this was really awesome.
This was really awesome.
I enjoyed my time.
I always enjoy getting to talk to you, Charlie.
And I've really enjoyed doing the podcast series with you, Gabe.
(01:07:39):
So I really appreciate the collaboration.
I can't wait to, for both of them to be released and, and hear how they go.
Yeah.
that.
Well, thank you both so much.
I think you both have been pretty major influencers in my life.
So I'm really grateful for both of you.
(01:08:05):
Dave, your environments that you create are amazing and the way you create the new artgatherings and.
Help people to be free and those things.
mean, I just, think it is so important because.
People have to get out of their shells at some point and there's nothing wrong with them.
(01:08:26):
And so I think it does really teach them that and gave working with the sobriety and beingable to take what you're going through in order and creating a group so that you can
basically reach out to other people that are kind of going through similar experiences.
It's just it's amazing.
So I really love what you both do.
Appreciate it.
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