Grazing Joy with Troy Bishopp

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Do you factor joy into your farmplans? If not, you'll want to

(00:05):
stay tuned to hear the GrassWhisperer himself, Troy Bishopp
on this episode of Food, Flowersand Fun.
If you're the woman who does itall,
farm work, housework, book work,homework,

(00:27):
getting up at the break of dawn.This is the podcast for you. Get

away from the cares of the day: Restock, rootstock, feedstock, (00:37):
undefined
seedstock. Chat with womenaround the world who raise food
flowers and fun with your host,K Castrataro, that's me.
Well, hello everybody. Welcometo Food Flowers and Fun. I am

(00:59):
your host. K Castrataro, and Igotta tell you, if you are into
grass and you are into grazingand you are into mental health
and a little bit of insanity,you are in exactly the right
place today, because I have anabsolutely fabulous guest with
me. I have Troy Bishopp from NewYork. He is fondly known as the

(01:22):
grass whisperer. And if thereare any of you who are just
listening to this and are notgetting to see the whole
experience, you really got tofind a podcast channel that lets
you see the whole thing because,because Troy is just a lot of
fun.
So Troy, you know, I'm not goingto
say too much about you to beginwith, other than the fact that

(01:44):
we met eons ago doingsustainable agriculture type
stuff, and you are also like agrazing guru. So tell us a
little bit about your farmpractice, and then we're going
to see how it is that you're onthis podcast that's supposed to
be for you know, women farmers,and we're going to talk about
how you can help women know howto help their farm men. So start

(02:08):
off with telling us who
you there's a little sprinklingof Oh. So I well, then I should
preface by saying that in mylife is mostly ladies. So my I
have three daughters. They havedaughters. So there's daughters,

(02:33):
daughters, daughters. So I'm adad, a daughter. Dad, I guess,
or you know those there's a lotof estrogen around. So maybe
that has helped me prepare forthis evening. You know, trying
to
your whole life, your whole lifeis just converging in this one

(02:55):
moment. Troy,
yes, yes.
You know, my, maybe my personallife's more sappy because of the
ladies in my life, they havemore feelings. You know, they
they touch my heart. They havegood stories so

(03:17):
and they're really good stewardsof the land,
not that men aren't, but there'sa little bit, you know, more
caring, not more caring, justcaring for animals and those
types of things, gardens and,yeah,
actually, I'm going to jump inright away, because I do this.

(03:37):
I've read a really interestingresearch study about people
looking at like a feministapproach to farming and
regenerative, regenerative, Ican never say that word
regenerative farming inparticular, and and I think that
really goes into what you'resaying that there is kind of a
more feminine desire to connectwith the land and Not not just

(04:00):
use the land, but like to tonurture it, because we're, we're
nurturers, and I think that'ssomething we can learn from each
other. You know, not that well,there's, don't do that.
Yeah, I've read the book, ofcourse, I can't remember all the
things. As women are from Venus,men are from Mars. Or is it, oh,

(04:21):
my goodness, that's a blast fromthe Yeah, so the, you know, I
want to be a fixer, right? Sothat's what men do, and and,
yeah, it from time to time. Ihave to
scale back some of my rhetoric.

(04:42):
And it's interesting because,you know, in our farm here, and
you could say it goes both ways,but a lot of what we do is, is
young person friendly. You know,you don't have to be a man or a
woman. Um. Um, you can bestraight, gay. You can be

(05:04):
whatever. The tools that we use,you know, aren't big tractors.
You know, there's not a ton ofdiesel. You know, a lot of it
has to do with observation,moving, you know, fences to move
animals. You know, more of athinking person's game. I'm not,
you know, like we're notthrowing hay because we're a

(05:25):
grazing farm. Technically, wecustom graze other people's beef
cows. So I've done dairy heifersright now. I'm background in cow
calf pairs for a whole bunch ofyears, I finished beef here for

(05:45):
another customer. So but again,if, if you're my granddaughters
are just turned 11. She wasmoving fences when we were she
was five, you know, theappropriate reel. And, you know,
step in post where, you know,she could, they're plastic, so

(06:07):
she could take, you know, a few,yeah. And then we've got a four
wheeler and an ATV, you know,that's good, get in there and
drive it. I drove a 69 Chevytruck. Tried across the field,
trying to get in. I got in firstgear, and I think on the column
second gear and buy was at theend of the field already. I was

(06:27):
like, you know, I didn't. So alot of our tools are more
appropriate for the people thatyou know work and live here.
Can't be too, you know, too,too. Technology crazy, you know,
again, more observation, morenurturing, I would say, more

(06:49):
happy, yeah, you know, becausemoving the animals is like, I
don't know, takes like, 10minutes. Then you go, Well, what
else am I going to do? Well,just, I don't know, hang out in
the grass, you know, take a nap,have a beer,
make snow angels in the in thehay. Yeah, I should say not hey.

(07:12):
I would say, you know, think,observe the good stuff that's
happening, right? And you knowthat that observation, and you
know, taking it in, you know, isimportant for our mental health.
I would say because, you know,we, a lot of us, we do tasks,

(07:36):
yep, and I'm, I'm not the bestpractitioner. Never have, you
know, but I keep trying to getbetter. We do.
So I'm gonna, I'm gonna stop youthere for a minute, because one
of one of my earlier guests, wetalked about this, this concept
of the good farmer, and so that,that phrase that you just said,
the best practitioner. So canyou unpack that for us a little

(07:56):
bit? What do you what? What doyou consider to be, you know,
the best practitioner, and what?What is that standard that you
just compared yourself to? I
can't remember what I just said,but I'll go with
it. Well, you said, you said youweren't the best practitioner.
Wasn't we're moving on,
right? I What i I'm constantlylearning I'm not the, you know,

(08:23):
I'm not in some ways. I could bebetter. So, you know, talking
the talk, walking the walk, soI'm not the best practitioner,
or I'm still learning, and inthe past, you know, I was
terrible, like I moved animals,I ran to the next job, I worked
crazy hours, you know, my lifewas just seemed like chaos, and

(08:49):
I wasn't really enjoying the,you know, the craft so and the
practitioner, the way I seepractitioner, Steward, farmer, I
try to line that up withCraftsman, craftswoman,
craftspeople, you could say,maybe artisans. You know,

(09:10):
there's something about, youknow, I have, I have friends
that are cabinet makers. Youknow, maybe they're, they just
they, or maybe an artist. Theyjust are a photographer. They
see something we don't, and thenthey they not a mold it, and
what comes out is spectacular.But, you know, they stay in

(09:34):
their chosen, you know, lane forbetter word and being a grass
craftsman is, you know, that isa is a pinnacle. I'd like to,
you know, keep striving for. Idon't know what the best, you
know, somebody said, Oh, he'sgot the best grass, or she's got

(09:56):
this the best. And I'm like,Well, what, what does that mean?
I need to go. Find out I needto, you know, I need to emulate
so, you know, in my 61 years,I've been, I've been mentored
and emulating other people. It'snot like, whoo, I really
created, no, I got a stack ofbooks back here from the 50s,

(10:21):
40s, from Lewis Brumfield allthe way to Newman Turner and and
Clark and boys on and garish. Imean, there's just a litany of
books and mentoring where, like,almost a turning point when I
read the farm from LewisBrumfield. It was a, when I read

(10:44):
it, it was the vision that Iwanted for my farm. You know,
the ponds, you know, they'rejust the all the way he
described, you know, the birdsand the animals, and it's just
like that. Yes, yes, I see thevision. How do I, you know, get
there and and what I've learnedover the, I don't know, I'll

(11:08):
just say the last 20 or 30years, is holistic framework,
whatever that means to allowpeople talk
about, well, let's, let's, let'sunpack that. What that means to
you know that that's more thanjust a farm word for you, that
that, that I you know, thatwhole, that holistic framework

(11:31):
of decision making and trying totake a Neanderthal like myself
and bring in The decision makerslike my wife and my kids and
stuff about what's the futurevision look like, right? And so
we have a, I didn't I shouldhave. We have a mission, a

(11:51):
vision statement, or whatever.And, you know, it talks about
low stress, um, talks about, youknow, animals eating grass,
clean water community, you know,and then wildlife habitat, and
then then making a place for thenext generations to thrive. I

(12:13):
think we end so many decisionsare based on that sort of
premise. So, you know, notspending a bunch of money on
stuff that doesn't move us inthat direction, yeah, so, so
that that holistic framework is,again, I was mentored. I was I

(12:35):
went kicking and screaming, um,they were like, oh, you should.
So I hosted people, and I, theyhad talking circles with the
sticks this. I don't know theyhad a stick. Yep, nobody gets to
talk unless they're holdingthis. I didn't like that.
I like talking. Somebody said,Wait,

(12:57):
yeah, you talk over people. I'mlike, Yeah, I know I do, but,
like, I a lot of good
things to say, darn it,
yeah, what, even, what's astick? Yeah, you can't talk
without the stick. Like, wow,that was, that was tough.
Gotten all about that exerciseof of the stick thing and, and

(13:20):
now I'm thinking, Man, that'sactually a really good technique
to use in a lot of farmfamilies, like when we're when
we're talking aboutcommunications issues, because
there is this tendency, atleast, I don't know. I come from
a fifth generation farm family,so I mean, there are four
generations that are hangingaround all at the same time. And

(13:41):
if you don't think there'stalking over, that happens
often. We'll have three or fourpeople in three or four
different conversations alltalking over the people that
they're having conversationswith. It gets a little sketchy.
So that whole stick idea thatmakes you have to actually
listen, and then, you know, it'sthe there's a facilitator,

(14:02):
obviously that I don't know. Inever challenged the stick
because I thought, well, maybethey're going to beat me over
the head with it. I mean, I, Iguess I it. When you're in a
circle of 10 or 12 people, youknow, you say, Well, of course,
I've got to conform. But therules, yeah, that first go

(14:23):
around was, was kind of roughagain, the just again, it's been
a lot, quite a few years. And soagain, after all those, you
know, mentoring and this, thenyou come to this holistic
framework. And then it basicallyboils down to environmental,

(14:48):
financial
and social, yep, those threepillars of sustainability, yeah,
and so, so we, we should beproud. Practicing that in our
bigger country, you know,instead of making these linear,
you know, quick decisions, youknow, think, think it through
how it affects the whole system.So it's the whole system whether

(15:16):
and the system doesn't end thesystem doesn't end at your
property lines or at your countylines, or at your state lines,
or your nation's lines, like theway that the world works, is
those decisions really do havethat whole butterfly principle.
You know that the butterflyflapping its wings down in
Mexico or wherever can make atyphoon over in Japan. There's

(15:40):
something to be said for that,because there is a ripple effect
to what we do. And I think it'sit's really beautiful and also
important to remember that thework that we're doing in our
families and on our farms reallyhas a huge impact on the on the
world, if we, you know, want tobe honest about it, because
people are watching us, and thethings that they see and they

(16:02):
hear, they they either emulatelike you were saying, or they
revolt against and and they theyhave an impact. So, so tell me
how, how you kind of gotconverted to this holistic
approach. Does this? Is this aresult of some of your burnout
that you went through, or isthat something that was before

(16:24):
that?
I that, you know, that was 20years ago, or, you know, I'll
say 20 ish, years ago. Whereagain you start? I have the
book, the workbooks and things,and again, you're exposed to a
lot of new ideas and new peoplein that framework. And I'm

(16:47):
thinking I needed it because Iwas heading in, I'll just say, a
linear path. I don't knowexactly
things were towards the wrongendpoint.
Well, you know, I I was whatevertraditional, whatever the word,
it wasn't. It wasn't working. ItI wasn't improving at the rate

(17:08):
that I thought I should. Some ofthe stuff have to do with
shortcomings and grazing, youknow, like grazing too short,
you know. So there's a, youknow, that holistic grazing plan
that was more of what I wasinterested in. And then all of a
sudden I got broke down into,you know, the why, like, that's

(17:29):
a pretty big piece. And then,and then bringing in instead of,
I mean, I see this on a lot offarm families, you know, where
I'm the decision maker, andthat's the way it's going to be.
And in my professional life atthe Conservation District, lots
of times I would pull the pullthe card, and I said, you know,

(17:52):
I think we need another decisionmaker on this decision. Let me
ask your significant other. Andthat was not welcome. Like,
don't you talk to them. And I'mlike, Well, you know, this,
you're moving towards this, thisor this. You know, it shouldn't
be just your decision and,

(18:16):
and that's such a challenge.Like, it really, I mean, I mean,
you hear about families all thetime, and this is, this is why
so many of us have divorcedafter our names. Because, you
know, getting just two people tocome together and being able to
like form a a unit and move inthe same direction is super

(18:38):
difficult. And so then when youadd the two people and the
children and maybe thegrandchildren or grandparents,
and, oh, and you add in, I don'tknow, a whole farm business with
livestock or crop choices or,you know, etc, etc, of course
there's going to be conflict,like, how can you not expect

(19:01):
that, and yet, we are not reallytrained to be able to navigate
that, like we're just kind ofpeople just kind of think that
we're supposed to know how toget on the same page. And that's
actually a really, it's a skill,and it's something we can learn,
but it's not something thatwe're often taught.
So now, so now, in these times,you know, holistic management is

(19:26):
still, you know, prevalent, andyou know, there's a couple of
the savory center or SavoryInstitute, the Holistic
Management International. Butthen then you have regenerative
agriculture bleeding into theprinciples of Alan savory, the
decision making, the grazingmanagement, some of those

(19:49):
things. So again, people are,you know, taking what they know
and maybe adding a little bit toit. We're all talking about
ecosystem function. And, andthose are, those are great. My,
my particular point of speakingnow is, so why are we doing it?

(20:14):
You know, I am, I am a littleI'm again, maybe I'm a little
bit too experienced, orwhatever, you know, people say,
Well, what kind of water systemare you using? What kind of and
I'm like, I'm using the one thatworks. Yeah, no, is why? Why?
Why are you? Why do you want todo what you're doing? Or have

(20:36):
you asked yourself, why are youdoing this? Why are you going
through the hours of work, youknow, what are you hoping to
achieve? And getting to the why,and that goal setting and all
that stuff is still, for manypeople, including myself, is
still like this thing over inthe distance that we know about,

(20:57):
but we're like, oh, I don'tknow. I might hug somebody, I
might have feelings. So it'sover there, and I'm again, I
think I've given at least two orthree keynotes of why and what
does it mean. What does the whymean? So, okay, you make, you

(21:19):
make some money. Okay, well,what are you going to do with
that money? What? Well, you helpthe environment, okay, but what?
What do you hope to achieve? Youknow, what are you? What are
your goals and what? What is it?Why is it good for the community
that we do this stuff so much,
and you have to be keep askingyourself, you know, when you

(21:41):
have these stanzas in your lifeof, why? Why? Why am I doing
this? You know, what was the soagain, in the last, in the last
10 odd years, this wholeconversation with Holistic
Management and those basically,I don't know it was fate or prep

(22:05):
or whatever to to somehow helpme navigate shows of so the show
of burnout, work, life, balance,um, grief and all the things
that make me cry. So again,having the tools, the mindset

(22:28):
and and again, my my myassociates, my friends, I
gravitate towards those thatobserve. Ask why, you know, are
more emotional. Look at thingsmore emotionally. Share your
values. Plan, plan, plan forfun, or you won't have any. And

(22:53):
so in again, it's a kind of aculmination. Now that I'm, you
know, 61 it'd be great if Ifreaking learned this when I was
25
you know, or, you know,
why do we have to age before weget wisdom? I don't know. People

(23:18):
ahead
of us. Do tell us these things,like not all of it, but you
know, you have heard the nobodyever dies and wishes they'd
spent more time at work andblah, blah, blah, except for
some farmers. There are somefarmers I know, I'm related to,
one of them, who would just liketo spend all of his time farming

(23:39):
and that is, that is a goodthing. It's great to love what
you're doing, but I think thatwhole idea of asking why and
what your motives are and what'sdriving you to do it is
something really important. Ithink it's, I think it's
something that farmers are notencouraged to ask because it's a
scary question. Like, especiallyif you're a multi generational

(23:59):
farmer, like there's part ofthat that's kind of embedded in
your DNA. So there's almost likethis pull towards agriculture
that you you've you feel it deepinside of you. But then there's
also this feeling of guilt ifyou decide to do something
different, because you might bethe last, the last descendant in

(24:21):
in your family, who you know, sothen you've got a whole farm
history that's going to be like,lost on your watch, and who
wants to be the last farmer inthe line? Like nobody wants to
be the one that lost the farm.And yet, sometimes that might be
the best thing for for people.And so, you know, have you been

(24:42):
able to figure out any ways tohelp farmers start to navigate
that really tricky
space? No, not, not really,other than lend an ear, people
get annoyed when I say, Well,why do you want to do that? Oh,
I. I just keep I said, You Youwant me to. Let me ask again,

(25:05):
why do you want to do that? Boythat frustrates. And again, I'm
just trying to get to you. Youwanted you said you wanted to.
And I'm asking you again, why doyou want to do whatever? And
again, it's the next best thing.Doesn't cut it like I've seen so

(25:29):
many farmers who, you know, theygo from the big, standard apple
trees, and they cut those down,and they go to the, you know,
the mid size ones, and thenthey're going to trellis. And
not that any of those are badmanagement decisions, like,
depending on what you want yourapple trees to do for you, all
of those can be good managementdecisions. But again, that

(25:51):
question of why doesn't oftenget asked as much as well. This
is what we're told is then thebest way to do it now. And the
question never seems to comeback to but what's the best for
you? What's the best for yourfamily? What's the best for what
you want to accomplish at theend of your days? You know the
look back and say, if there'sone thing that I can be proud

(26:12):
of, I want it to be this and andI feel like that's a really hard
thing for for farmers to do.
Well, you're trying to find, youknow you're again. You're trying
to find your context, and youknow, again, however that lines
up with your your goals andthings, or why you know, why

(26:34):
you're doing things that aredifferent than other people, and
why you're saying, geez, I'mgoing to go on vacation. Well,
why do you want to do that?Because, because it's in my,
it's in my goal to makememories. It's in my it's in my
grazing plan to to, you know,catch some fish, to

(26:56):
talk about your grazing plan.Because this is one of the
things I really love. Because,you know, in my, in my non
podcast job, I try to getfarmers to, you know, do exactly
what we're talking about is tohelp them define those goals and
values and then to align theiractivities to meet those and
your grazing plan does that in ain a pretty simple and yet

(27:20):
genius. It's a good tool. Sohelp us out
with it's, it's, it's based offof Alan savory, his work that
you know, it's, it's his.There's several iterations of
that plan, but I need somethingthat was bigger. I was basically
adapted for us here in dairycountry, where we can't, can't

(27:43):
see the boxes real good. And wewanted certain things. We want
it really simple. But it'sreally not. It's not the,
necessarily the writing to it'snot necessarily the data
collection or where you're goingto move the cows Exactly. It's,
it's it's more of a it's more ofsomething to do some future

(28:07):
planning, and it's a calendar.It's just a calendar with lines
on it, and those lines line upwith, you know, those lines,
they line up with fields. Andthen you can, you know, it in
pencil. You can basically startplotting where the animals and

(28:29):
then up here, it's really theprocess. So, so if you just take
for instance, I always use thisanalogy. My daughter got
married, and she said, Yeah, Idon't want the cows down here.
You know, we have guests one onthe grazing chart. You know, you

(28:53):
better write down when she'sgetting married, because it's
there's not It's not negotiable,like you better. You better know
when that is and then, if youhave guests on the farm, you
need the cows, you know, we got100 acres. Do you need the cows
to be on the 100th acre, faraway so you have basically a

(29:14):
seat, you know, you have aseason. It was Memorial Day.
Whatever you need to have thoseanimals planned away, and you
better show up, because if youdon't walk your daughter down
the aisle, well, I mean, you'll,yeah, yeah, you will not leave
that down planning, you knowthat, that planning tool says,
Well, I don't want a lot offlies around here. So, you know,

(29:36):
make it work. So that process offiguring out, you know, where
things need to be. And then asyou look forward, you know, cows
move, you know, my herds move.And then I'm like, oh, so here
I'm going to need five days,because I'm going to the
Adirondacks to, you know, camp.So I need to make. Feed that I

(30:00):
have well, I need to have grass.I can't right. I need them in I
need them in this much grass towhether they're managed or not.
I need them to be in that fieldfor five days or two fields with
minimal labor to check them,because I may be in the

(30:20):
Adirondacks with not great cellservice. I don't need any shows
going on because I need to relaxand, you know, catch fish and go
to campfires and go to the beachand stuff. So,
so wait a minute, so you'retelling me that farmers can
actually take a vacation duringthe growing season. Well,
again, I wasn't the bestpractitioner. Through theory,

(30:46):
through again, that holisticframework of why, and then the
shows the, you know, the burnoutand stress in your life and all
this you know, the the grief ofyour brother passing away and
all that says we got to dobetter. And so if you want it

(31:09):
again, if you don't plan forfun, you won't have any so for
us farmers, we've got to carveout something in the future,
just like a processing date or,you know any other, you know, I
gotta go to the doctor. Youknow, you plan out so,
oh, we plan for doctors too.Yeah,

(31:32):
you know, there's a lot of, Ilove this concept, yeah,
farmers are people too.
Again, is it important to you?In a lot of frameworks, a lot of
people, I know, they just don'ttake a lot of time off, and
that's fine. They don't have to,but stealing a day here or two,

(31:58):
you know, is important to be inthe overall like, farming is
great, but so is spending alittle quality time on the
weekend or during the week, youknow, a couple days, and having
your animals, whether they'rebelly full of grass or you're a
crop farmer dairy, you know,whatever is, If that's

(32:20):
important, you've got to make ithappen. And myself, I had to be
basically stressed out andforced to make that happen. I
had, I had to find this again.This is, this is a tool that I
use. It's just a piece of paper.You know? It's the process of

(32:42):
habitually, doing that, and thatis an important part. Like I
said, you know, I'm just asexcited about having 245 day
grazing days as I am having 35or 45 day camping days. Yeah,
right. For me, success meansmore camping days to go with the

(33:06):
grazing days. It isn't, itisn't, um, and or it's moving.
So the funny part about thiswhole narrative is, if you plan
to have a lot of grass, andyou're stuck correctly and you
do the grazing management,whatever it looks like, you get

(33:27):
your quality of life to go withit, and your pocketbook is
better for it. And if you treatyour resource really well, you
know it gets better next year,yep.
So you get more more grass,
more biology, more habitat, moreyou know, if you're not spending

(33:52):
if you have a lot of diversity,let's say, in your like, in your
My pastures, I don't have tospend money on minerals as much
I don't have to spend if I got alot of birds and things going on
and I'm frequently moving, Ihave less fly inputs of those
two. And so for every dollarthat I don't spend there, I can

(34:15):
invest in, well, you know,camping equipment, yeah, or of
some great fishing lures or or anight out, you know, and out to
the movies. You're always goingto use that money for something.
Why not use it for something youactually want, you know, to do

(34:36):
so and, you know, we've, we'resort of in an organic framework,
even though we're not certifiedorganic, because we keep saying,
if we build this house, theythey will come, yeah, and when
you, when you provide these,again, these animals, these
biological animals, and they dothis grazing, and the foxes.

(35:00):
Come out and the turkeys and thedeer and the birds, and then you
have some frogs, and you havetree fruit, and all of a sudden,
when you're walking with youryour grandkids, you know you
could be eating the apple thatwas planted by the generations
before. You could be, you couldbe rolling around on the grass,

(35:23):
just doing stupid stuff, makinggrass angels. You, like my
granddaughters, are veryinquisitive. You know, they like
picking up insects and joy,yeah, it's a joyful it doesn't
feel like a farm, like a farmwith, you know, chains and PTO

(35:45):
shafts, and just like
I had a picture of Scrooge'sfriend Marley with with all of
his chains on him, when you whenyou said that, and I was just
thinking how much, how much ourfarms can be like they do. Chain
us down if we don't, if we'renot intentional about the type
of farm lives that we want tocreate, and and being creative

(36:08):
with it, and, and I think whatyou're talking about finding
those small moments of joy andcreating an environment where
those can flourish is is socritical. But
I again, I wish I caught thebug, 25, 3040, years ago. Yeah,
you know what? What would thatbe like? Well, so it doesn't
matter, it's in the past. It'sin the past. Come back. So, but

(36:35):
now, you know, now we have thesegenerations that have, you know,
YouTube videos, podcasts,webinars and things that you
know, the tools that they haveare vastly improved, I would
say, but they still have to usethose tools and things to still

(36:55):
create joy in their you know, intheir life again, you can be
financially sound andenvironmentally friendly, but do
you have true joy? You know? Doyou do you have time to linger
graze, you know? Do you havetime to sit down and just say,
Yeah, I just kind of want to seewhat's happening. I kind of want

(37:19):
to disappear in the grass andjust take a nap. So we we have
all this tools and technologies,and now, do we have those? I
think you call them, you know,the champions to say, Hey, I
think this is really animportant narrative. Can we move

(37:40):
towards all the things we want?But can we get more joy?
You know, can we plan moneydoesn't do that like the
interesting thing is, I readsomething really interesting
that said, once your basic needsare met, and we're talking like
your your basic needs, like youcan keep your house, you can do
that kind of thing, more moneydoes not at all equate to more

(38:04):
happiness. And like, I get thatin my soul, but I think there is
this idea in our culture,especially that, well, if I can
just make more money, I'm goingto be happier. And I hear
farmers a lot of times sayingI'm unhappy because my finances
are bad. I think for farmers, wesometimes get trapped in this

(38:26):
idea that it's it's because wedon't have any money, and yes,
we need to. We need to makefarming more lucrative. Like I
do not disagree with that atall. And at the same time that's
not really what's going to do itfor us. We need to really
rethink what we've turnedagriculture into, especially in

(38:49):
in more industrializedcountries.
Well, again, you can read mystuff on my face, on my website
and stuff, but you know, I had akey, key key moment when my
brother passed away.
Tell us about that, because it'sa very powerful story.
It's just, you know, we were, wehad, we talked about plans. You

(39:14):
know, when I'm 61 you know,going to Maine, you know, we had
a lot of plans, and that justended on a weekend he died in
North Carolina. And so my wholeoutlook changed, because I just
kept saying, Well, you know, isthis all? There is, you know, we

(39:36):
have to do something that wehave to, we have to do something
more important than just doingwhatever we're doing. And that,
that stressor, you know, reallybrought to bear this whatever
the grazing chart planning forfor family stuff, we. Bought a

(40:00):
camper. You know, we said, youknow, we have to, we have to
find more joy.
We can. We're always going towork.
But so that again, you you havethese, these moments in your
life. Everybody does at somepoint that that that sway you

(40:21):
into this, whatever directionyou're heading, that way, and
you're like, nope. And so that,again has propelled my, whatever
career or pathway to again,trying to find a better work
life balance, and everybody use,I guess it's very cliche. Now,

(40:44):
you know, work life balance, Idon't know exactly that's
something a narrative foreverybody to look at, but again,
for for us, I just keep saying,Well, why? Why am I doing all
these grazing techniques? Why amI doing all this? What's the

(41:04):
point? Do you bring bring moneyin, you spend money out. You
know? What? What? What are wetrying to achieve? And you know,
we're trying to achieve the nextgeneration. We're trying to
provide a farm here that has nodebt. We have a farm that when
it rains, we're not scared ofit. We're again our goal, or our

(41:28):
job, is to provide for the nextgenerations to thrive.
Decisions, the actions that wemake are, you know, I would say
we're heading in that direction.It's not, you know, linear like
oh, it's just going to go likethat. But
again, that, I love that yousaid that too. I know I keep

(41:51):
stepping on your words, as mykids would say. But as I was
listening to you, I was I wasthinking about how it's not a
linear process, that it'sdefinitely something where,
like, you have the moment ofawareness and you say, oh my
gosh, we gotta change this. Andyou might go gung ho for a

(42:13):
little while, and then, I don'tknow about you, but for me, it's
really easy to slip back intothose habits when the kids come
home to be like, hold on. I'vegotta wrap up the grazing plan.
I've gotta, you know, I've gottafinish the seed order, whatever
it is, it's like, we have to dothis now. And if we're not
careful, we're doing that allthe time, because the work never

(42:38):
ends. And so even for those ofus who are really committed to
this, like we really believethat we need to take time to get
away from the work, to spendjust with the family, to do the
fun things, it's a really hardthing to keep, to keep in that
mindset. What helps you keepfocused on that?

(43:00):
I I would say my wife is reallygood because she, she the the
grazing again, I'm going back tothe grazing chart is filled with
plans. So she, she's the firstone on the grazing chart. She
fills in kind of where, where,and we're, we have flex time and
those types of things. But she,she is the coordinator of fun.

(43:27):
And again, lots of things comeup. So like right now, May, May
and June are just crazy because,because I have said it many
times, if I start well, I willend well. So it's important for
me. And I am a workaholic rightnow, and I work last night, it

(43:49):
was nine o'clock because it'sbeen raining a lot, so I've
been, I've been moving cows,mowing, trying to get I did the
garden stuff today. So there's alot, there's a lot of stuff to
get done. So you can, you knowthat, you know, towards the end
of June, July, August, there'sthings that need to get done.

(44:12):
And if you, let's just say thatyou said it's fine, you know,
the grass gets really old, andit doesn't regrow, and we get a
dry spell. I really plan for alot of grass in my framework. So
if I want to go away for threeor four days, I don't know,
there's no cows being moved, wejust turn them in there. We get

(44:33):
back there, there, and they lookat you like, yeah, I don't know.
I don't have to move.
I didn't even care that you weregone, yeah? Because they really,
if we give them what they need,they really don't need us that
much, do
they? Again, that's sort of agrazing,
I mean, I mean, it is differentif you're milking, you know,
milking, yeah, ball of waxsomebody needs.
We're putting in the work nowfor the rewards, you know,

(44:56):
later, yeah. And again, you. Sothat's how I kind of operate.
And then I always have some flextime where, wow, that that would
be great to go visit my friendsfrom Canada, okay? Because
sometimes flexibility andadaptability is just as

(45:18):
important as you know, planning,because you know, you want to be
able to, you know, go over thereand do this at a moment's
notice. So there's there again.This is, um, this takes practice
like, this is not something, youknow, I've now, I have practice.
And I'm trying to inspire othersthat get down, you know, get

(45:42):
down in the dumps that they'relike, Well, I don't know how you
do it. Well, you know, you got,you got a lot of money, you
know, you work off the farm. Yougot this, you got that, you
know, you don't have this. AndI'm like, it's just practice,
you know, it's a process. It'spractice, practice. And so when
I stand up in front of peopleand say, you know this, this is,

(46:06):
this is why we do stuff. This iswhy we keep a grazing chart, why
we manage really hard in theearly spring, because it pays
dividends the rest of the year.And again, when again, going
back to the farming narrative,that when we have dry spells or
wet spells or whatever, we justkeep chugging along, because we

(46:30):
built biology over the last 30years and so,
so that the environment has thatresilience, those
dips and valleys. Again, you tieit back to financial, you know,
biology, ecosystem processes,financial, time off, you know,
less stress there, there's athere's karma there, there, you

(46:54):
know, there synergy. If you doit well, it'll just happen, you
know. And, and and the othernight we were, I was at a
pasture walk, and it was prettytraditional. I would say, you
know, beef cows and that type ofthing. And people were starting
to talk about, you know, flycontrol, you know. And we're

(47:15):
talking about, well, you gotweeds. And, you know, they're
talking about inputs, inputs.Well, what kind of pyrethrum do
you use to spray and so, youknow, it's, it's a traditional
way of thinking of, killing,killing, killing, you know,
killing, killing, killing. Youknow, after a while. You know,

(47:36):
after a while, I just said, youknow, there was another
gentleman there talking about,well, I put garlic in my salt,
which we do too. We putdiatomaceous earth with our
minerals, and so those are alittle friendlier to the
habitat. We don't use ivermectbecause we got dung beetles. So

(47:59):
in, even in the framework of allthe tools that we talked about
the the other evening, it wasnice to talk about other
alternatives. You know, I'malways kind of like, Hey, by the
way, you know, birds just eatflies. You know, there's,
there's different kinds ofinsects that eat, you know, fly

(48:20):
larvae. And if the turkeys arevibrant, they break down the so,
you know, there's a lot ofsystems that happen. And yes, we
could, we could spray, you know,I'm not, there's, there's a lot
of recipes on how to do stuff,but it was nice to be able to
talk about alternatives,
right? Yeah, to give people thewhole

(48:43):
shebang
menu of options and then say,pick what works for you.
So that narrative of discussionis always great, because they
say, Well, how is it working foryou? And I'm like, well, it's
working pretty good. Would youlike to try it? And there's a
recognition that this stuff'scheaper than this stuff, and

(49:08):
running cows through a shootonce a month to spray them, or,
you know, put ear tags, or, youknow, whatever, that's a pain,
that's that's labor you need toshoot, or whatever. We don't do
any of that, you know, they selffeed. They eat garlic, you know,
the, it's, it's, they, we useessential oils, you know, when

(49:28):
they under the, yeah, so theyget, you know, it smells very
lemony, citrony, nice crisp, youknow. And got the nicest
smelling cattle. They're verybut what they eat, you know,
what they eat that diverseforage. There's tannins in that.
If their hair coat is very slickand kind of greasy, yeah, the

(49:49):
flies just don't. Aren't a big,you know, issue. So it's all,
it's all in there at the farm.It's just that, you. Kind of got
to figure out a way to make thathappen. And sometimes there's a
big fly outbreak, because it'sso you use the tool that's
appropriate, but we don't. Thosetools cost money, and these,

(50:13):
these, these other tools costmind. And so you could say,
Well, I'm not making the kind ofmoney I'd like to make, which
many farmers that's the
Yeah, that's a reality. That's areality for a lot of farmers.
And I mean, I wish, I wish Iwere the woman to be able to

(50:34):
help them with that issue. But Itell people all the time, I'm
like, hey, if, if you're lookingto make more money. I am not the
person who's going to help you,although, if you're feeling
happier at what you're doing,you can work better so it could
actually end up financiallybeneficial, and I don't do as

(50:55):
much of the technical supportlike I used to do that in my
extension days like that is thatis not my strong suit. I am here
to try to help you, take care ofyou, because I want the farmers
to be having that kind ofholistic care for themselves as
well, and then that spills outinto their farm and makes their

(51:16):
farm happier and more vibrantplace to be.
It's, farming is a tough game. II'm very cognizant of finances.
And so people say, you know,well, the farming, I'm like,
there's, there's not a ton ofmoney in milk. You know, when,

(51:39):
when, when my peers can't affordhealth insurance, and they can't
afford to go to the doctor, orthey can't, they can't do a lot
of my friends can can get, youknow, free lunches and things
that for the amount of hoursthat we work and what we go

(52:01):
through,
it's not really unacceptable.People
don't have that recognition. Imean, I, I, I'm really sensitive
to that. And you know, peoplesay, Well, you know, there's
grants. Come on, come on. Wedon't want, we want to make it
on our own. And so again, everyfarm is every farm or rural

(52:26):
business is they have their,yeah, we have our own context.
So I can say, well, you know, wecould sell beef, you know,
direct to the consumer,
and we have, but
I don't love I don't I likedoing a little, but I have other

(52:48):
interests. So I farm because Ido I like it this way, and I
work off the farm because I likeit this way, and I do this
because I like that. And if Ihad to go back to full time
farming. I'd have to create iI'd have to sharpen my pencil. I
would have to be marketing,marketing, marketing. And that

(53:08):
takes away from some of thegoals and the whys, but there's
just, there's not even, evenwith all that, there's just not
a lot of money in the in thefunnel. I don't care what kind
of farming, you know, people,oh, the farmer's getting rich.
And I'm like, No, if the farmeris rich, like, if I was rich.

(53:30):
Like, the best thing aboutfarmers, in my opinion, is we
spend money. Like, if I getmoney, I I'm like, I know that.
I want a tractor. I have anyproblem buying stuff. My stress
point is not buying like, Oh, Ireally like that. There's always

(53:51):
something I want. And so we'reactually pretty good for the
economy. You know, we're goodsand services type of folks, and
we're always looking to update,trying to, you know, get better,
get a newer piece of equipmentor so, so, you know, we're, we
are a catalyst in economic Game.Again, us being together tonight

(54:22):
is sort of a could be aculmination of 30 to 40 years,
really, because the ebbs andflows. And so what's cool about
my new job with Nat, GLC, youknow, in the Eastern Region is
over this my lifetime, there'sbeen so many connections, and

(54:43):
then there's the reconnections,and then you're a little bit
older, I'd say, maybe a littlebit wiser. Let's hope so. And
then, and then our nextgenerations can look to us to
share, right because we can onpodcasts and webinars and
YouTube videos. We. Can sharewhat the framework of what,

(55:04):
what's important, and if it'slining up with what you want to
do, you know, there's thisthere's this recognition. And so
that's what's really cool rightnow, is there's so much
opportunity, yeah, in thisregenerative, AG, whatever,

(55:25):
Holistic Management grazing,we're feeding people that this
grassland narrative. To me, wewere really strong back in the
90s, and then it, you know, goesthrough the episode. But right
now, with with our weather andour water and our food

(55:46):
sovereignty, sovereignty and andare trying to be joyful and
nutrient dense foods. Yeah,there's a lot. There's a lot to
be said for in for our resourceshere in the east, and we have a
lot of eaters that, I think,like we would love for them to

(56:10):
walk our land and feel whatwe're feeling, even though we
might set it up like, hey, justhang out here if can You, can
you hear all the birds you know?Can you hear the crickets? Do
you hear the bullfrog you know?Can you pick some blackberries?
You know? They're shelter beltsthat would have been planted,

(56:33):
you know, purposely, yeah, todrop snow out or to protect the
livestock, or to add some kindof forestry component in a
silvopasture way, but this wholefarm is an ecosystem unto
itself. And then when it rains,which it's been raining for, oh

(56:55):
my goodness, right,
it's very basement. Forgot whatit's like to be dry.
It's really interesting nowthat, you know, we've talked
about holistic management andthe processes and the
ecosystems. Is, listen, weshouldn't like, where there's
flood warnings. I'm like, it'sonly going to rain an inch and a

(57:16):
half. What's the problem?Because our landscape isn't
resilient, and I'm like, let itrain an inch and a half I I
don't my my cows are in two foothigh grass, and there's so much
there's so much organic matter.When it rains, it just soaks it
up, the cracks hardly even move.And when I contribute that clean

(57:38):
water to my watershed, I mean,you get that with the beef you
buy. Yeah? Like, Oh, I lovethat. Yes. Just if, if consumers
would just see what we see. Andagain, there's just so much
opportunity in this, thisnarrative of, this framework of

(58:00):
Yeah, the triple bottom line,financial ecosystem, social,
that the at this point, theworld is your oyster. It's just
getting the recognition from,you know, the end user that this
is important, and this is why wewant to support local farms in

(58:24):
Rhode Island, upstate New York,you know, Virginia, Ohio,
wherever,
because without them, we starvelike I hate be, I hate to be
really dramatic about it. Butthe truth is that without the
without farmers, we starve. Andso if farmers can't make a
decent living, they're not goingto keep farming like you're

(58:49):
going to have some who do itbecause, because I do think that
farmers and artists are an awfullot alike, like we've got that,
that hope that springs eternal,and the the kind of, Oh, it
can't possibly be as bad as thatagain. So, so there are some of
us who will just keep doing itforever, and there are going to

(59:11):
be a lot of people who say, I'mnot doing this. This is, this is
an insane lifestyle like betterfor them. Okay,
it's okay that you don't want toproduce your own food, but
please support the know, knowthe reasons in the context of
why we're doing that, and in mycommunity, here in deansboro,

(59:34):
New York, I mean, I my mygranddaughter and I were
accepted into the Americagrassland conference out in
Nebraska in June. We're not, wecan't, because there's a
conflict with school. But mytitle was saving a watershed,
one blade at a time. And sowhere I'm in the Mohawk Valley

(59:58):
and when I when I'm up on mypage. Pinnacle up on Charlotte's
bluff, and I overlooked thewhole watershed. I mean, that's
where it's at this. That's howimportant it is to keep sod on
the ground and use the toolsthat we can and we need that
partnership from our customersto, you know, instead of saying,

(01:00:22):
Well, I'm just going to go, youknow, buy whatever beef. No, buy
our beef, because you'recontributing to this
sustainability, this resilienceof our our our area and and then
we need that, those resources sowe can keep cultivating the next
generation. I mean, it's 100%simple dynamic. But anyway, we

(01:00:49):
didn't talk much about mentalhealth. Sorry,
we did. We did. We talked about
it in, you know, one of thethings that that I'm really
encouraging people to do,there's a phrase that I read
recently called Find the smallthings that save you. And you
talked a lot about that, like,what are the small things every

(01:01:10):
day that feed our souls, the,you know, the listening to the
birds and the crickets and theeating the blackberries and you
know, all of those things thatif we have the eyes to see them.
Those are the small things thatwill save us, that will give us
that sense of being connectedwith the work that we're
actually doing that's soimportant that sometimes we get

(01:01:31):
so bogged down in the burden ofit, or the the necessity of it,
that we forget the blessingsthat we have. Like I think
that's one of the great thingslistening to you, is that you
have such an awareness of howsatisfying farming can be on so
many levels. And that it for me,anyway, it's really inspiring to

(01:01:52):
to want to encourage more andmore farmers to get back in
touch with that, so that it's,it's something that they really
are being fed by as well asfeeding others with it and so,
so I
do it. You don't have to. Youdon't have to do it full time.

(01:02:12):
You know, there's, there's waysto engage with food production,
agriculture on a on a scale thatyou know you want to I have an
off farm job or, you know, oryou can be an artist. There
again. I This feeds my soul. Butso does working in the public
space with farmers, helpingthem, you know, inspire them to

(01:02:37):
manage their resources better.And then, you know, at 3am I
need, I need a, I need to writean article. Something came to
me, you know, again, side gigs.So, however you fit, you know,
we a lot of, there's a lot ofnarrative on, you know, well,
you need to be a farmer. I'mlike, you can be, you can have

(01:02:59):
one cow in 10 chickens, right?You You can still cultivate the
magic in your space and still goto work in a cubicle or whatever
it is, and you can it, or youcan help someone else out. You
can, you know, work for somebodyelse and get that. You know you

(01:03:24):
can, you can harvest vegetables,or, you know you can have in a
CSA, and you know having yourhands in the soil, and you know
creating life and things stillfeeds, feeds your soul. So
again, what I'm seeing now,depending that doesn't matter.

(01:03:45):
I'm just seeing so muchopportunity that it's pretty
exciting, and I'm I loveconnecting with you and kind of
a new audience, because, youknow, pre covid, there was none
of this, no,
yeah, for all the bad thingsthat covid brought, one of, one
of the beautiful things is thatthis ability to connect with

(01:04:07):
each other has become sostandard. Like, I mean, I had a
call this morning with a womanfrom Nigeria, so, you know, we
weren't doing that in the sameway outside of, like, the
business realm, like the the,you know, big business. But to
be able to do this and to getfarmers from literally, from

(01:04:28):
around the world, to be able tohang out together virtually, I
think is so cool.
Seth Godin says, live in thesmall yeah, oh yeah. Live for
the moments and when thosemoments this, this one story
that I wrote on my thing aboutmy granddaughter and I fishing.

(01:04:51):
The whole thing culminated.
Everything culminated in onemoment when the loons. Was when
the we were we were unstressed,we were in a kayak. The cows
were back here. We're in theAdirondacks. And fate brought us
to that point. I actually had mycamera, and the loon was calling

(01:05:15):
her mate, and we just sat thereon the kayaks and saw the whole
thing happen at that moment. Andif the cat, if you didn't plan
for a vacation and you at anysleight of hand, could have
derailed, that

(01:05:36):
wouldn't have happened, not hadyou not planned for family time.
You didn't plan for the loons tobe there, but you plan to be in
a place where memories could bemade, and then memories were
made. And that's that's sopowerful.
So that opportunity of theopportunity for joy,

(01:06:00):
again, you never know when that
opportunity, and I didn'tappreciate it,
and until I said goodbye to mybrother, not knowing that he was
never coming back, it's superimportant to again. Why the heck

(01:06:22):
are we doing all this stuff?It's for the moment. It's for
that. You know who? For anyonethat's listening or watching.
You know what is your context inthat you know what you'll know
what when it you'll know when ithits you. So you know that that
Loon And then then the bassfishing, and there was just

(01:06:47):
that, that one evening, just hitall the marks. And of course, as
a writer, I have to write thatout. I mean, it was just too too
it was too emotional not to getit on paper. And then it was a
basis for a couple of keynotes.Again, I can play the video like
I captured on my phone, youknow. Again, when you're when

(01:07:09):
everything lines up, your phoneis charged, you know, all that
stuff.
So, yeah, yeah, you leave itback at the camp you
find for so for tonight'slesson, find your opportunity
for
joy. This has been so much fun,and honestly, like, I really
appreciate your time tonight,and thank you.

(01:07:31):
Hope to see y'all soon.
Okay, thank you.
How do you farm what's callingour shows of fun, goodbye,
farewell, so long I do see younext week, same time, same place
for food, flowers and fun. Go inpeace.

(01:07:54):
Visit us at www.penlightfarmers.com

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