October 31, 2025 • 48 mins
Episode fourteen of Food, Flowers, & Fun: Visits with farm women from around the world features Laurel Witri of the Community Mediation Center of Rhode Island/Land and Sea Together as we discuss:
- Begging for farm work
- Learning from refugee farmers
- Planning successions that work (and don’t!)
- Mediating farm conflict
- Much, much more!
You will love this thoughtful farmer-turned-mediator!
About Laurel:
Starting with an urban rooftop garden, Laurel progressed to working as a farm apprentice, managing a farm, and ultimately running her own farm. A Farm Succession Program Specialist with Land & Sea Together, she helps farmers plan for their future by walking them through the process of succession planning. Laurel is a certified farm transition coordinator through the International Farm Transition Network (IFTN).
Connect with Laurel at:
- Website: https://landandseatogether.org/about-us/
- Instagram: http://instagram.com/landandseatogether/
- Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/laurelwitri
Connect with K at:
- Website: https://www.penlightfarmers.com
- YouTube: @k.castrataro3466
- Facebook and Instagram: @penlightfarmers
- Podcast (audio): https://www.penlightfarmers.com/podcast
- Podcast (video): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLIVBn53rrIsTwS4ag6hH4DHnxG_Lxqt7x
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Unknown (00:00):
Have you ever wondered how your tax dollars support
(00:03):
farmers' income, stressreduction, communication and
succession planning? You'lllearn about that and more on
this episode of Food, Flowersand Fun, while we chat with
Laura Witri of the CommunityMediation Center of Rhode Island
and Land and Sea Together.
(00:28):
If you're the woman who does itall, farm work, housework, book
work, homework, getting up atthe break of dawn, this is the
podcast for you. How do you
multiply my
first do you get away from thecares of the day? Restock,
rootstock, feedstock, seed,stock. Chat with women around
(00:50):
the world to raise food flowersand fun with your host, K
Castrataro, that's me.
Welcome back to Food, Flowersand Fun: Visits with farm women
from around the world. Asalways, we are sponsored by Pen
Light for Farmers, which ishelping farm women, especially
(01:12):
to create more time focus andenergy and enjoyment in their
farm lives. And today we havewith us somebody who knows all
about helping to make farm lifea little bit more enjoyable. And
this is Laurel Witri. She iswith Land and Sea Together,
(01:32):
which is also part of thecommunication, the communication
the community
and center of Rhode Island. I dohave this. I know this. It's a
mouthful. You know what? It'sokay, Laurel, this is, this is
the way it goes here, like Ijust start recording, and then I
make a fool out of myself, andwe all just laugh at me, and
(01:53):
that great. That's how weencourage farmers around here.
But seriously, cmcri is a reallyimportant organization in Rhode
Island because it works withfarmers on succession planning
and other mediation things. But
expertise is successionplanning. So Laurel, I'm going
to turn it right over to you andjust start tell us, tell us how
(02:17):
you got into AG,
oh goodness, yeah. So way back,um, so let's see. I was living
in New York City and wanted tostart a little rooftop garden,
and I kept applying to theseprograms, like the Brooklyn
urban garden program and,
(02:41):
gosh, what other ones, like theBrooklyn Botanic Garden, I just
like wanted to work. Andeveryone was like, No,
you have no experience. Andyeah, so I just started wanting
to do these things in my 20s.And grew up in in Rhode Island,
in Cumberland, and had verylittle exposure to farms and
(03:04):
food, even though there's somegreat farms up there,
it really wasn't on my radar.And so, yeah,
I was living in New York City,and was like, I want to do this.
This makes no sense. I'm livingin New York City. And so I got
frustrated and applied to workon a big farm in the Hudson
(03:25):
Valley,
and they interviewed me, andthey were also like, no,
like, I'm just trying to getexperience, but you have no
experience. Yes, I'm aware ofthat, and I want to get
experience and And isn't thisthe problem in area, every area
of life, because people want youto already know stuff that you
(03:49):
don't know. And in farming,that's really hard. Because
unless you were raised on afarm, how are you going to know
this stuff? Right? Yeah,exactly, through somebody taking
a chance on you? So somebodymust have eventually taken a
chance. Oh, yeah, it wasn'twithout me begging, you know, I
said please, like, please, I'll,I'm going to take this really
seriously. And so this was a big350
(04:13):
member CSA in the in the HudsonValley, and they had, you know,
hundreds of acres of farmland,and six weekly markets in the
city. And, you know, 60 cows andmilk, you know, they it's, I
don't know if you know,Hawthorne Valley Farm. So that's
where I got my start, andapprentice there. And wonderful
(04:34):
learning experience. And,
yeah, and so that sort of, Ifeel like I learned more in that
one year than I have in any yearof my life.
So I caught the farm bug, and
from there, went to NewHampshire, and immediately
started working with a farmer, afemale led farm, and helped them
(04:58):
start a CSA.
Ran that for a couple of years,
and then I had a lot of bigdreams about greenhouses and
really experimental farming, and
fortuitously, found a farm thatwas looking to have a successor,
and they had some really funkygreenhouses, and they did all
(05:19):
kinds of cool stuff. It's like,we got to do this. So my partner
and I
worked on transitioning to takeover that farm for two years,
and it ended up, we worked with
farm succession folks andmediators and tried to work that
out. And it ultimately wasunsuccessful. But I really
learned a lot in that process,and it was fairly destabilizing,
(05:42):
you know, for us, kind of goingthrough that process, and we
just signed a lease for we hadbeen fixing up a house and
rented it out while we weretrying to run this farm. And so
it was a big challenge. We sortof ended up losing work and
housing at the same time, whenit didn't work out all of a
sudden. And
(06:02):
so, yeah, it was a big impact,and I really sort of reevaluated
my
goals around farming, and said,You know what? I want to like
not take on something myself,and I want to work for someone
who has more experience, and Iwant to work with the diverse
group of farmers. And I ended upworking for the next few years
(06:23):
at the organization for Refugeeand Immigrant success based in
Manchester, New Hampshire, andworked with like 25 new American
farmers, refugee farmers fromaround the world and on two
different sites, and I started amobile food market that served
three different cities in NewHampshire, going to low income
(06:45):
neighborhoods and selling thefarmers food and sourcing from
other farms and taking advantageof
the snap. And so, yeah, so, youknow. And from there, I had a
child, and was like, I got tomove back to Rhode Island and
being near my family, andthere's great work going on
here.
(07:05):
So that's sort of the longstory, a little bit long, but
no, no, not at all. This is,this is why we're here, is to
hear about how other people aredoing farming and how they got
into it, and what it's like, andespecially considering the
climate that we're in right now,like, I'm really struck, because
I didn't realize you had had allthis experience with refugee
(07:28):
farmers. And so I'm wondering ifyou could talk to that a little
bit like, how, how do you seewhat's going on in our country
right now and its impact onrefugee farmers and and how did
you see
their impact on the on theenvironment around them? Because
(07:48):
we hear so much about howimmigrants are coming in,
they're taking American jobs,and, you know, they're they're
causing huge problems in allkinds of areas and, and so you
are actually working with someof these, this this immigrant
population coming in, and I'mnot going to even ask if they
were, you know, documented orundocumented, because I don't
(08:08):
think it matters to be honest insome ways, but, but, yeah, speak
to that. Just talk a little bitmore about the experience you
saw and how they impacted theworld around them. Absolutely,
you know, these, were some ofthe most hard working, wonderful
people I've ever met, and
they were often from countriesthat had been impacted by
(08:29):
horrific war. And
you know, they are here withtheir families, and they are
traditionally farmers back homein their countries. And this is
the occupation and thelivelihood and the skill set
that they have.
And the organization I workedwith was led by a refugee who
(08:50):
came here through the, you know,
through that process, andstarted off working at a
McDonald's and worked his way upto being the executive director
to a nonprofit that he started.And they know they're doing
resettlement, and they'rethey're running all these
programs. They own several acres
(09:12):
outside of Manchester. And thesefarmers, you know, they grow
beautiful food. They feed theirfamilies, they feed their
communities. They go to farmersmarkets all over the state, and
half the time they're workingother jobs. You know, this isn't
their main source of income.They're also supporting their
families in other ways. And
(09:33):
you know, it was the kids wouldbe running around on the farms.
It was a community. There's anamazing community aspect to it
as well.
And I just can't emphasizeenough that these are great
people,
and they made greatrelationships with their
customers at the farmersmarkets,
(09:55):
and just the persistence andyou.
You know, I think they workharder than anyone.
And hasn't that been what we'vesaid about immigrants throughout
history is that when they cometo our country, they're here
because they left somethingreally awful. Like, I always
(10:16):
think about this. I'm like, youdon't leave your home because
you're happy there. Like, Ifyou're happy and you're content
and you're safe, you don't go,especially, like halfway across
the world, like to the exactopposite side of the world.
Sometimes, if things are thatgreat, where you are. And so
when people come here, they dowant to succeed. They don't want
(10:39):
to live the same life that theywere living back there. They
want to create something that'snew and that's fresh and that's
happy and healthy, but that alsodoes not forget who they are,
you know, because so I'mwondering, because I've, I've
met some, some immigrant farmerswho, you know, are really into
growing the types of crops thatthey grow at home. And, you
(11:03):
know, I've spoken with somecassava growers and papaya
growers over in Nigeria andCameroon and so, how does that
work for them, coming over here,like did they? Did they try to
bring their their crops withthem? And did they adapt to this
climate? How did that, you know,that was one of my favorite
things. You know, they wouldbring crops from their home
(11:24):
countries. There's, you know,African corn, that's very
specific that they, that theygrow. And
we had a farmer from Nepal whowould grow some really unique
crops, you know, to be able tohave the food from your home
country when you're in a foreignenvironment. You know, I think
(11:48):
that's so powerful to be able tofeed your family. And you know,
like that the food has, youknow, you were talking about
being destabilized during thesuccession planning and and
moving like that is sodestabilizing, like it takes all
things that you're used to andit rips them away. And I had
(12:10):
not, I'm feeling kind of foolishthat I hadn't really considered
the impact that that food has onrestabilizing you like, helping
you to feel like, okay, we'renot, yeah, we're not completely
displaced, like we've got somesome of us our past is still
with us, to be able to sharethat with their children, who
(12:32):
may have been born here and havenever, you know, seen their
home, homeland,
so And with those of us who arenot from that area. I mean, look
at how many foods we have now.Like, I think about that all the
time, that things that we didfor granted, you know, mangoes
and kiwi and I don't know evendifferent kinds of like, lettuce
(12:52):
type things, stuff that I neverand I grew up on a farm like,
never had exposure to as a kidbecause we didn't have them like
they didn't get shipped acrossthe world to get here, and now
they're staples, like we justthink anything of it. And so
what a gift that is for us to beable to have this variety of
(13:14):
food and culture coming with it.I Yeah, right. I think it only
adds value. And I think, in atime when you know our the
weather is changing, the climateis changing, and you know, we
think about trying to feed ourcommunities, and the more
available crops we have, andwhen they're, you know, folks
are bringing in things that cangrow in this in this bio region,
(13:37):
so that only adds value. It addsa diversity of crops. When
something fails, there'ssomething else, whether it's
pests or weather related and andalso, you know, some of the
folks that I worked with aregrowing things that I'm familiar
with, but they're preparingtheir different parts of them in
different ways, like the leavesfrom summer squash. Like, that's
(14:00):
a, that's a farm product forsome of these farmers, or the
leaves from sweet potatoes. Oh,my God, no, you can eat those.
And are they using them as wrapsaround? No, they're eating them
just plain. But, I mean, sautelike spinach. Oh, awesome. See,
I didn't know that there's awhole way of preparing the
squash leaves, or, you know, youpeel off the spines and strip
(14:25):
like it's whole thing. And I'mlike, I had no idea. So, you
know, there's just so much crosspollination of
food knowledge there.
And I can't speak highly enoughto the some of the government
programs that were able tosupport this work with snap and
Double Up Bucks where folkscould the farmers could be
(14:47):
getting top dollar for theircultural crops and then go sell
them in their community, and thecommunity members, who were
often low income, were able topay half price for them.
Um, to me, that was just a win,win, win.
And so, you know, there's seeingmany of these
(15:08):
programs threatened is, youknow, disheartening, because
it's just, it's putting healthyfood into families bellies,
yeah, and I think especially inin more urbanized areas where
there's a lot of, you know,small farming being done by
immigrant farmers who who areactually really, in some ways,
(15:30):
really well prepared for that,because a lot of their farming
in their home country was morelike what we would call
homesteading. So they're used toworking on on smaller acreage,
but making really, reallyproductive use of that small
grid every square inch. Yeah,great in an urban environment.
But they are also food desertslike and we, we don't understand
(15:52):
that. If you're a middle classAmerican or an upper class
American, you have no concept ofwhat a food desert is. But it's
really hard to get good freshproduce in some areas of the
inner city. So when you havepeople growing it, and the
people who don't have a lot ofmoney can actually access that,
it's it is life changing. Like,literally life changing for the
(16:14):
entire community, like, not justfor the individuals who are
buying or selling or eating orgrowing, but for the entire
community, it changes theculture of the community. It's
just really amazing. Tell Icould talk about this bias. I
have a bias.
Yeah, and right here in RhodeIsland, I can mention, you know,
(16:36):
Southside community, Land Trust,northern Rhode Island
Conservation District, AfricanAlliance, like, there are
wonderful farmers right here whoare growing these crops, who are
on the sankofa project. Youknow, there are just some really
incredible growers right herewho we partner with, and the
organizations that that workwith them, doing great things
(16:58):
here. Yeah, oh, I can't wait toget some of them on our show
too.
Been working on that you're the,you're the for this world.
But I'm gonna, I'm gonna shiftgears a little bit, because,
yes, we could definitely talkabout this all the time. But you
know this farm succession thingthat you were talking about and
(17:19):
the mediation work that you doat cmcri, I think are really,
really important. And so I'mwondering if you can tell me how
you got hooked up with them.Obviously, you had a you had an
unsuccessful successionexperience, which, I mean, you
talked about that as beingdestabilizing. You know? What
(17:39):
was that and it changed thecourse of your your career for a
while. It sounds like becauseyou shouldn't get from wanting
to own your own farm to maybeworking with and for others. So,
so how'd you get into
landing and all that? Yeah, sothat's, that's a great question,
and I think it's a good story.You know, while we were going
(18:00):
through that process of tryingto take over a farm. I was
working with a mediator fromland for good and and
I was like, Oh, this is a job,
very niche job.
I was just introduced to theconcept of mediation and
found like how helpful thatcould be when people, just
(18:24):
humans in general, a lot of thetime, have a hard time really
expressing what they want andcommunicating effectively.
And that only gets morecomplicated when there's
generational differences,
cultural differences, differentpolitical backgrounds. You know,
(18:49):
there's so many layers that canmake communication challenging
and so that, you know, that'sjust sort of a light bulb moment
for me. That's interesting. Whatwere you gonna say, I said, and
emotions, because, you know,once, once you get, you know,
you can have all thosedifferences, and then the then
you hit, like a big emotion,either sadness or anger or fear,
(19:12):
or any of those things. And it'slike, yeah, and then that's all
exacerbated, yeah, yeah, oh,yeah, um, and so, yeah, so I
went through that and did theseother jobs, and was looking for
work in Rhode Island because wewanted to move. And
at post pandemic, or during thepandemic, there was some funding
(19:33):
to support Farm stress. And soit was farm strand, farm stress
Assistance Network, and
the Center for mediation hadapplied with dem for that grant
through the USDA. And so theCenter for mediation is the
agricultural mediation
program of for Rhode Island. Soany state has one of those in
(19:58):
the United States right.
Just out there who arelistening. So if you're if
you're having any conflict,wherever you are in the US, you
should have some they're calledamp programs, agricultural
mediation program. They'recertified with the USDA to
provide free mediation servicesto you
(20:19):
with a large list of, you know,eligible issues that they can
support you on came out of Iwant to say this could be
totally wrong, but I'm prettysure it's from the 80s where
firms, a lot of farms, weredefault, defaulting on loans and
needed some help negotiatingwith predators
and so. But this program hasbeen around for a long time, and
(20:42):
it's a pretty bipartisan program
that's always helpful.
Fact is that mediation, in andof itself, is not a new thing,
and it's not a political thing,like we actually my my ex and I
actually went through mediationprocess when we were, you know,
finalizing custody things for mykids and so and that was
(21:05):
actually after I had beentrained as a mediator at cmcri.
And I remember just sittingthere and watching this woman. I
was like, wow, she is textbook,like, she is so good at what she
does and how she was just ableto cut through a lot of the the
stuff that we throw around asbeing problems, which is, like,
that's not really the problem.What's really the problem is
(21:27):
this. And what you really wantis this, right? And you're like,
oh, oh, yeah, actually, thatthat is what I really want.
Okay, well, what you're askingfor isn't going to give you
that. Oh, it's not No, no, it'snot so. Yes, I firmly am a
believer in especially familieswho are having conflicts on the
(21:49):
farm, to go and try mediation,because it can. It can change
everything.
It really can. And, you know, Ifeel really grateful. You know,
having been trained as amediator and working with farms,
it's, it's refreshing to be notpart of the whatever drama is
happening. It's like I'mstanding on the outside. I have
(22:09):
this clear view, and, you know,to not have any stake. You know,
we are a neutral third party andhere to listen. And you know, we
don't have a directive type ofmediation style in the center,
it's it's very it's had wehelped the different parties
(22:30):
formulate their own solutions byjust getting the facts and
helping people. Because it'sreally hard, the facts get very
obscured by
that at all in
society,
facts and figures. Wait aminute, because you can
(22:51):
interpret them right
between your interpretation ofthe facts and the facts and your
job is definitely to say No,just the facts and but to let
people have their emotions too,right? Absolutely, absolutely
stress. So farm stress funding.There was some covid money that
(23:12):
went out to almost all of the 50states in 2021 2022
and through that process, Stateof Rhode Island was awarded
funding to help farmersnegotiate farm stress and
navigate stress, particularlypost pandemic that really
(23:33):
impacted a lot of farmers indifferent ways, caused a lot of
stress. And so what we did is we
distributed as much of thatfunding directly to farmers in
the state in the form of microgrants to help pay for things
like car repair and equipmentrepair, elder care, child care,
(23:56):
really, really practical stresscausing issues. Yeah, yeah. If
we could have helped pay for
health care, you know, therewere things that we couldn't pay
for that we would have liked to
what there were other thingsthat like, Oh, I wish we could
pay for that. But, you know, wegave out, want to say
(24:20):
150 to 200 micro grants acrossthe state to farmers, fisheries
and forestry workers.
And we also supportedorganizations to help who are
serving farmers, fisheries andforestry workers, to help set up
some programming around stressreduction. And we did a needs
assessment where we gathereddata from those three different
(24:43):
industries to really see what,what is causing the stress?
What? What are they? What arepeople doing when they want to
try to treat whatever stressorsthey have? Yeah, what did you
find? We have, like, a 60 pagereport, if anyone's.
Right? Lots of data.
(25:05):
And because I'm a junkie fordata, we love data too. My boss
is always like, what do you wantto do with that data? Laurel, do
we really is that an essentialquestion? And I'm like, I don't
know. I just want to know. Andshe's like, Okay, well, that we
I don't know. That's not a goodreason to have the question on
there. Curious.
So we have it. I'll use it foryou. I'll take a look at it.
(25:29):
Yeah. And so one of the majoritems, a couple of major things
emerged,
and it was around successionplanning.
And so dem Ken airs at dem, thisis a big priority of his at the
Division of ag. And you know, ifwe look at the statistics of the
(25:51):
average age of the farmer inRhode Island and across the
country, this is not a RhodeIsland problem, but, you know,
we are looking It's,
50s, 5556
and generally, what I've readis, you know, around age 50 is
when you should begin yoursuccession planning.
(26:12):
It doesn't mean you have to beready to hand over your farm at
5055, but it means that youknow, you're thinking about the
future, if something shouldhappen, what? What happens to
your farm? What happens to theland, to the business? How does
that impact if you havechildren?
Yeah, so you know, maybe you'vegot an orchard full of trees.
(26:34):
What happens to those trees? And
so
used to feel really old, butjust for those of you out there,
like I'm 48 so like, that's two,two years from then. So like, it
actually comes a whole lotsooner than you think, when
you're when you're actuallytheir business. Yeah, you feel
(26:56):
like you're in your prime, oryou are just starting your
business. And so to think abouthanding it over can be really,
like, heartbreaking. I wouldthink like, well, starting this
I'm not ready to hand it over,and what I'm hearing you say is
that it's it's not about handingit over. It's about being
prepared in case somethinghappens. It's kind of like an
(27:18):
insurance policy to make surethat you know the people you
care about, or the land you careabout, and you yourself have
what you need. Should, shouldyou need to implement your plan
sooner rather than later?
Accurate way of Yeah,
(27:39):
absolutely, you know, it doesn'tmean that you are signing off
and going to retire, move toFlorida. It. It is really just
the, the emphasis is onplanning,
succession planning, and reallyjust, you know, it's kind of the
last bucket list item, or the todo list item on most people's,
(28:01):
well, I got to go, you know,clear the fence line, or I got
to deliver this order.
I'd rather use the money I haveto fix the tractor instead of
paying an attorney to write up
an estate plan or make a trust.I don't want to deal with that
(28:22):
because it's it's overwhelmingand it's expensive, and I got to
focus on growing my business orjust managing the day to day.
No? Yeah, and you know thatdecision making process that
kind of reminds me of thethere's a matrix that we use
sometimes to prioritize thingslike, what things are urgent?
What things urgent meaning like,there's a time limit on it, you
(28:45):
got to do it, or you're going tomiss the time frame. And then
important, as in, well, itmatters to me a lot, because
it's something that has a bigimpact. And then you have the
things that are, you know,urgent, but not important, and
important and urgent. And solooking at your farm succession
(29:06):
planning, that can feel very noturgent, because your health is
good, your finances are probablypretty stable. You know,
hopefully, if you've beenfarming for a while, you know
your family is growing up, sothey don't need as much from
you, so it might not feel likethe time that it's not urgent,
(29:26):
but I can't emphasize to peoplehow important it really is, and
it's important for you, but it'salso important for the people
you care about, because so manyof us have a mixture of farming
and Non farming people in ourfamily. And so it's not as
simple as well. I'm justhandling it. You know, back in
the day, you just handed it allover to the oldest son, you
(29:49):
know, the oldest son just goteverything, and everybody else
was, like, married off, stuck ontheir own, or, you know,
apprenticed off to the horseshoemaker or something.
But that's not how we do itanymore. Some people do, but
most of us don't. Most of uswant to be a little bit more
equitable to our farming and nonfarming family. And when you're
(30:11):
trying to figure out whatequitable and fair looks like as
a as an owner, as a parent, as agrandparent, whatever that is
that's really, reallychallenging, and I think that's
where the mediation is sohelpful sometimes, because they
can come in and help tease outthe things that are real values
for you, that can help you makethat decision. Yeah, and this is
(30:35):
very far from a one size fitsall situation. You know, I
approach every farm family on anindividual basis, and everyone's
farm succession plan will lookdifferent, and some families
what looks fair to them willlook really unfair to someone
else. But you know, everydynamic in every household is
(30:57):
different, and every farmoperation is different.
Everyone's finances aredifferent, and so it's really
important to help people drilldown and understand what their
needs are. As the farmers, thefarm owners, what they need,
just like you said, what theyneed for their kids, if they
have children who's farmingwho's not, and what do those you
(31:20):
know, what do those folks needas well?
Yeah, it is, it is super tricky.And, you know, I'm, I come from
a multi generational farmbackground, so I've seen, I've
seen farm succession happen,
you know, historically, throughour family. And I know how some
of it has gone well and some ofit has gone poorly, and how
(31:44):
relationships can can suffer.And I grew up in a farm
community, so like my extendedfarm family, you know, I've seen
families torn apart by thiswhole succession thing and and
it doesn't have to be that way,like this is one of the things
that I really want people toknow, is that there are
(32:04):
resources like you out there.And as you said, the farm
mediation. So the FPA, did I getthat right? Amp?
I got that,
which is why I asked the amp,
the farm, certified agriculturalmediation programs. There we go,
(32:25):
certified. So, camp, Camp.
Yeah, I can camp. I canremember, let's go camping.
There we go.
But anyway, there, theseresources are there, and they're
free for a lot of farmers in alot of situations. So yeah, so
that now takes it off of theit's a financial burden, and
(32:46):
puts it back into this. This isa really important thing,
because it's part of yourlegacy. It really is going to be
how people remember you in yourfarm culture, not to put, you
know, pressure and guilt onpeople, but, but there is a fact
that, you know, I mean, I tellmy parents all the time, I'm
like, I don't care what you do,I just want you to get it
(33:08):
straightened out, because I knowthe three of us to have to be
sitting here, the three, becausethere are three siblings, I
don't want to sit in theretrying to figure it out like
that. That's more than I wanted,
and I'm not farming activelyanymore, so it's like, hey, you
know, I get whatever you have todo, but just please do it.
(33:28):
Because, yeah, because then wecan deal with grieving. We don't
have to deal with grieving andtrying to negotiate probate or
probate to do that, my houseisn't a trust like my kids. I
don't even technically own myhouse, like, I mean, it's, it's
an interest for my kids already.So, yeah, so I know that there
are confidentiality issues, andI don't want to, I don't want to
(33:51):
do anything that would violateany of those. But within the
within the framework ofconfidentiality, are there some
examples that you can give us ofways in which different
succession plans worked out forpeople so that they can have an
idea of I think some of us maybeare afraid of succession
planning because we don't evenknow what's possible. I wonder
(34:12):
if there's some possibilitiesyou can give us
Sure. You know, I've worked withfarms, and they kind of have a
sense of what they want already,and they say, Look, I know I
want a revocable trust. I knowthat I want to put the farm into
a trust, and I just need helpfinding a lawyer and putting
(34:34):
some language to that so that Iknow it's protected in the way
that I envision. And I'm like,great, let me help you. We have
legal food hub.
They are they have a presence inRhode Island through the
conservation law foundation.Check their website out. They
will match you with a freeattorney if you qualify to their
financial guidelines, and ifnot, they will still help find
(34:57):
you an attorney who has some um.
A knowledge in agriculture,which can be hard to find.
So they are a big referralpartner of ours.
So I will speak to the longevityof this process. There are some
firms I've been working with forthree years, and it's
(35:20):
a, you know, sign a coupleforms, and it's done. There is a
transition of
the leadership as well asownership. And so just because
the farm owner, and we call themsometimes the owner generation,
they may be ready to starttransferring parts of the farm
(35:40):
ownership. So maybe thatsuccessor gets added to the
LLC, or they get added to thetrust,
or maybe they start being giftedparcels of share, shares or
parcels of the land or shares inthe business over time, or just
(36:01):
money over time,
so that you know that's part ofthe ownership transfer, and then
leadership transfer. How do westart to transfer the decision
making power? That piece couldbe really tricky. So maybe you
can, maybe, maybe some ownershiphas changed, but it's really
it's really tricky. You need tohave a lot of trust in that next
(36:23):
generation,
and a lot of flexibility on bothends, and a lot of ability to
communicate. Trying to think ofwhat other examples
I know.
Sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was justgonna say, you know, I also know
a farmer who who worked on afarm, came into ownership of
(36:45):
that farm with the intention ofnot passing it on. She wanted to
make sure that it stayed a farmduring kind of a vulnerable
time, and built up the businessso that she knew it would be
successful in the future, andthen sold it. Which I was like,
wow. Like, I thought that waspretty inspiring to sort of have
the end goal
when she went into it being notto hand it down to her family,
(37:07):
and to just sort of, this was aproject and a business, and to
keep it
kind of structured that way inher mind, and sell it to another
farmer. I'm she did, and nowit's, it's a business that's
still going and thriving. And,you know, she made a lot of
investments in order to grow itto a certain point that she
(37:28):
thought would be a viablebusiness. And so she really sort
of saved that farm in a way,wow. And I really inspiring. I
was like, that's a really
smart way to do, yeah, well,that and it's very rare. It's
very rare that would be butthat, again, that speaks to what
her values were. You know, her,her value was, what was I really
(37:51):
appreciate this farm. Iappreciate what it offers. And I
don't see this farm as mine. Isee this almost as like a
community asset, and I want tomake sure that somebody else is
going to going to treat it inthe same way now, where I'm just
curious, because I get, I getstuck in the weeds, then I'm
like, Oh, how does that work? Sodid she have any restrictions on
(38:16):
the next owner about keeping itas a farm? Or, I know sometimes,
sometimes people get in that area little again, that can be,
yeah, they're
was a, I think there was a fewyears, I think it was, you know,
a pretty extensive negotiationprocess. And I honestly don't
remember off the top of my head,but I think there were some
(38:36):
restrictions on, you know, acertain timeline before it could
be sold again. Or I don't, Idon't remember, but that comes
up as well, sort of, if there isa sale, even to a family member,
do you trust that person to notturn around in? You know, in
Rhode Island, we have thehighest agricultural values of
the country at $22,000 an acre.
(38:59):
You know, we're talking milliondollar properties sometimes.
And,
yeah, how do you, how do youensure that that property stays
a farm? And there are severalmechanisms to do that. You know,
trusts are a way to do that.
Easements are a way to do that.
And yeah, so there are, thereare ways to sort of,
(39:23):
and several people don't want tobe restricting the farmers from
the grave.
Sometimes an easement isn't theright choice. Easements can be
really helpful, but they canalso be very restrictive. And
you know, there make it. Youdon't know what economic needs
(39:43):
the next generation is going tohave. And maybe they do need to
carve out a parcel and get somesome free up some cash to build
and build some infrastructure,make an investment in the firm.
And so you know that there areseveral ways to.
To sort of make the farm be staya farm in perpetuity. But it's
(40:05):
really, it's, again, not onesize fits all. It's finding the
right way to do that. But trustsand easements are great options
depending on you know thescenario. Sure. And then I guess
one other question on this topicis, I know that there are
farmers who have the nextgeneration. Either they don't
(40:28):
have a next generation, or theirnext generation is completely
uninterested in farming, and yetthey do have that value of
keeping keeping the farm a farm.So how do people go, go ahead
and connect with some of themany, many farmers who are
looking for land but don't havethem because a lot, kind of like
(40:50):
you were describing your ownstory, they're coming from
farming to farming from outsideof the industry, and so they
don't have that land beinghanded down to them. How do you
make help them make thoseconnections and vet people and
make sure that you know
the the energy aligns and allthat stuff. I'm so glad you
(41:10):
brought that up.
So we have been over the pastyear, starting to put together a
land access network in thestate,
and but there are. So I work ona grant through the American
Farmland Trust, and it's calledthe farm transfer navigator
(41:32):
program. And so there arepeople, almost all 50 states
have someone like me working onthis grant, trying to answer
that question. And there arevarious land linking
websites, entities out there,across the country. I know
internationally,
(41:52):
internationally as well. I'msure you know there are, I can't
name any specifically, but Iknow you know, regionally,
there's the New England farmlandfinder, you know, speaking from
a Rhode Island perspective, wemay have one property on there,
you know, unfortunately, thelist of land seekers far exceeds
(42:14):
that of what is listed formallyon online. And so we know we
have a lot more people lookingfor land than we do people
offering it, but that doesn'tmean it's not available or will
be available in the next 20years. So you know, we really
have our work cut out for us tobuild those relationships and
(42:34):
help landowners, farmers and andthe next generation of farmers.
And so, yeah, we've been workingI've been pulling together. I
have a list of 100
people that I've invited to this
land access network. And it'sreally, I'm starting with just
the organizational leaders andservice providers to really
(42:56):
coordinate. What are the optionsout there? I think lots, you
know, I think all the states areworking on that. I can point to
Connecticut. I think theyConnecticut Land Trust. I've
been watching what they'redoing, and they have a really
interesting last year, they theydid some open houses at farms,
(43:17):
but they had a whole processwhere they worked with the
landowner ahead of time, reallyidentified exactly what they're
looking for,
and then had a whole applicationprocess for farmers. No one
could just show up.
There was a lot of only baby.And it was, it was really like,
Okay, we want a serious farmer.They have a business plan. They,
(43:39):
you know, have this many yearsof experience and we're going to
offer. We do not have housing.We want this much for the lease.
We don't want this kind offarming. We want that kind of
farming, you know, to really beclear ahead of time before doing
any sort of matchmaking efforts.I think, did it? Did it work
out? I don't know, um, but Ithought that was a really good
(44:00):
strategy just from the outside,
and we have been partnering, andland for Good is doing some
really interesting work aroundrecruiting and training
landowners. Yeah, they've beenworking on that for a long time,
and they've been, they've beendoing this work forever. And
back when I was an extensionagent at URI, and what was that?
Well, my son's 13, so, like, 13years ago,
(44:24):
yeah, we were, we were trying tocrack this nut then, like,
trying to figure out how to, howto make the system work. And it
seems on the outside like anonline system would be so easy
and so simple, but it reallyisn't, because it totally takes
out the human, the human side ofit, you know, it just looks at
the land side.
(44:46):
So I know that you are motheringa sick child today. So we are
going to
stop this amazing conversation,which I can keep talking. You'll
have to do another time. Yeah, Ican.
Do. I could do a whole anothersession on land access, yeah,
because this is a huge, a hugetopic, and very passionate about
(45:08):
it as well. And I did forget tomention, just for the purposes
of your listeners, we
through that farm StressNetwork. We also put together a
mental health helpline forfarmers. And I think, you know,
just remembering the mentalhealth aspect of farm succession
(45:28):
and the stresses of trying tofarm, whether you're going to be
farmer or an experienced farmer,there are resources out there as
well. So excellent, one of my,one of my big things. So yeah,
exactly. I gotta tell you like,I've loved this conversation.
I've loved hearing what you'redoing. I think it's really
(45:49):
valuable for our listeners.Because I think all farmers
really, really need to beconsidering all of these issues
at some point.
And so thinking about what allfarmers need? I'm going to ask
you my signature question, whichis, if you had one piece of
advice that you thought allfarmers should have, what would
(46:09):
that be?
I think, be honest withyourself,
how what's working, what's notworking.
Because I think from whetheryou're a beginning farmer or
you're a generational farmer,it's like this, you have to make
(46:31):
your farm work for you
and so but a lot of that takesinterest back introspection, and
there may be a version of yourfarm that
you don't it's not there yet,
but it's okay for your farm tolook different than it has in
(46:52):
the past, and so not beingafraid to make the changes
to make your farm work for you.So being honest with yourself
about is this working? BecauseI've been burned out, and I
don't want anyone else to burnout, out there. We need our
young, Spry farmers to be takingover inspiring farms and feeding
(47:16):
our communities so and in a waythat is sustainable for them,
like that's we always talk aboutall other types of
sustainability, but thatsustainability for the farmer
is, is really, that's my heartcry because, you know, I've said
it before, but you can have allthe beautiful land that you
want, and if you don't have afarmer to work at, it's just
(47:39):
dirt. Exactly. You're notgrowing anything. You're not
producing anything. It might bebeautiful wildlife habitat, but
it's not going to feed the thenations. So
yeah. So thank you so much. Thishas been such a pleasure, and
thank your daughter for sharingus with you while, while she's
(48:00):
not feeling well, and everybodyelse out there, I hope to see
you again next time on food,flowers and fun. Great. Thank
you so much, K, take care.
Farmwork's calling our show isall done, goodbye, farewell. So
long adieu. See you next week,same time, same place for Food,
(48:22):
Flowers and Fun, go in peace.
Visit us atwww.penlightfarmers.com
you.
Have you ever wondered how your tax dollars support
(00:03):
farmers' income, stressreduction, communication and
succession planning? You'lllearn about that and more on
this episode of Food, Flowersand Fun, while we chat with
Laura Witri of the CommunityMediation Center of Rhode Island
and Land and Sea Together.
(00:28):
If you're the woman who does itall, farm work, housework, book
work, homework, getting up atthe break of dawn, this is the
podcast for you. How do you
multiply my
first do you get away from thecares of the day? Restock,
rootstock, feedstock, seed,stock. Chat with women around
(00:50):
the world to raise food flowersand fun with your host, K
Castrataro, that's me.
Welcome back to Food, Flowersand Fun: Visits with farm women
from around the world. Asalways, we are sponsored by Pen
Light for Farmers, which ishelping farm women, especially
(01:12):
to create more time focus andenergy and enjoyment in their
farm lives. And today we havewith us somebody who knows all
about helping to make farm lifea little bit more enjoyable. And
this is Laurel Witri. She iswith Land and Sea Together,
(01:32):
which is also part of thecommunication, the communication
the community
and center of Rhode Island. I dohave this. I know this. It's a
mouthful. You know what? It'sokay, Laurel, this is, this is
the way it goes here, like Ijust start recording, and then I
make a fool out of myself, andwe all just laugh at me, and
(01:53):
that great. That's how weencourage farmers around here.
But seriously, cmcri is a reallyimportant organization in Rhode
Island because it works withfarmers on succession planning
and other mediation things. But
expertise is successionplanning. So Laurel, I'm going
to turn it right over to you andjust start tell us, tell us how
(02:17):
you got into AG,
oh goodness, yeah. So way back,um, so let's see. I was living
in New York City and wanted tostart a little rooftop garden,
and I kept applying to theseprograms, like the Brooklyn
urban garden program and,
(02:41):
gosh, what other ones, like theBrooklyn Botanic Garden, I just
like wanted to work. Andeveryone was like, No,
you have no experience. Andyeah, so I just started wanting
to do these things in my 20s.And grew up in in Rhode Island,
in Cumberland, and had verylittle exposure to farms and
(03:04):
food, even though there's somegreat farms up there,
it really wasn't on my radar.And so, yeah,
I was living in New York City,and was like, I want to do this.
This makes no sense. I'm livingin New York City. And so I got
frustrated and applied to workon a big farm in the Hudson
(03:25):
Valley,
and they interviewed me, andthey were also like, no,
like, I'm just trying to getexperience, but you have no
experience. Yes, I'm aware ofthat, and I want to get
experience and And isn't thisthe problem in area, every area
of life, because people want youto already know stuff that you
(03:49):
don't know. And in farming,that's really hard. Because
unless you were raised on afarm, how are you going to know
this stuff? Right? Yeah,exactly, through somebody taking
a chance on you? So somebodymust have eventually taken a
chance. Oh, yeah, it wasn'twithout me begging, you know, I
said please, like, please, I'll,I'm going to take this really
seriously. And so this was a big350
(04:13):
member CSA in the in the HudsonValley, and they had, you know,
hundreds of acres of farmland,and six weekly markets in the
city. And, you know, 60 cows andmilk, you know, they it's, I
don't know if you know,Hawthorne Valley Farm. So that's
where I got my start, andapprentice there. And wonderful
(04:34):
learning experience. And,
yeah, and so that sort of, Ifeel like I learned more in that
one year than I have in any yearof my life.
So I caught the farm bug, and
from there, went to NewHampshire, and immediately
started working with a farmer, afemale led farm, and helped them
(04:58):
start a CSA.
Ran that for a couple of years,
and then I had a lot of bigdreams about greenhouses and
really experimental farming, and
fortuitously, found a farm thatwas looking to have a successor,
and they had some really funkygreenhouses, and they did all
(05:19):
kinds of cool stuff. It's like,we got to do this. So my partner
and I
worked on transitioning to takeover that farm for two years,
and it ended up, we worked with
farm succession folks andmediators and tried to work that
out. And it ultimately wasunsuccessful. But I really
learned a lot in that process,and it was fairly destabilizing,
(05:42):
you know, for us, kind of goingthrough that process, and we
just signed a lease for we hadbeen fixing up a house and
rented it out while we weretrying to run this farm. And so
it was a big challenge. We sortof ended up losing work and
housing at the same time, whenit didn't work out all of a
sudden. And
(06:02):
so, yeah, it was a big impact,and I really sort of reevaluated
my
goals around farming, and said,You know what? I want to like
not take on something myself,and I want to work for someone
who has more experience, and Iwant to work with the diverse
group of farmers. And I ended upworking for the next few years
(06:23):
at the organization for Refugeeand Immigrant success based in
Manchester, New Hampshire, andworked with like 25 new American
farmers, refugee farmers fromaround the world and on two
different sites, and I started amobile food market that served
three different cities in NewHampshire, going to low income
(06:45):
neighborhoods and selling thefarmers food and sourcing from
other farms and taking advantageof
the snap. And so, yeah, so, youknow. And from there, I had a
child, and was like, I got tomove back to Rhode Island and
being near my family, andthere's great work going on
here.
(07:05):
So that's sort of the longstory, a little bit long, but
no, no, not at all. This is,this is why we're here, is to
hear about how other people aredoing farming and how they got
into it, and what it's like, andespecially considering the
climate that we're in right now,like, I'm really struck, because
I didn't realize you had had allthis experience with refugee
(07:28):
farmers. And so I'm wondering ifyou could talk to that a little
bit like, how, how do you seewhat's going on in our country
right now and its impact onrefugee farmers and and how did
you see
their impact on the on theenvironment around them? Because
(07:48):
we hear so much about howimmigrants are coming in,
they're taking American jobs,and, you know, they're they're
causing huge problems in allkinds of areas and, and so you
are actually working with someof these, this this immigrant
population coming in, and I'mnot going to even ask if they
were, you know, documented orundocumented, because I don't
(08:08):
think it matters to be honest insome ways, but, but, yeah, speak
to that. Just talk a little bitmore about the experience you
saw and how they impacted theworld around them. Absolutely,
you know, these, were some ofthe most hard working, wonderful
people I've ever met, and
they were often from countriesthat had been impacted by
(08:29):
horrific war. And
you know, they are here withtheir families, and they are
traditionally farmers back homein their countries. And this is
the occupation and thelivelihood and the skill set
that they have.
And the organization I workedwith was led by a refugee who
(08:50):
came here through the, you know,
through that process, andstarted off working at a
McDonald's and worked his way upto being the executive director
to a nonprofit that he started.And they know they're doing
resettlement, and they'rethey're running all these
programs. They own several acres
(09:12):
outside of Manchester. And thesefarmers, you know, they grow
beautiful food. They feed theirfamilies, they feed their
communities. They go to farmersmarkets all over the state, and
half the time they're workingother jobs. You know, this isn't
their main source of income.They're also supporting their
families in other ways. And
(09:33):
you know, it was the kids wouldbe running around on the farms.
It was a community. There's anamazing community aspect to it
as well.
And I just can't emphasizeenough that these are great
people,
and they made greatrelationships with their
customers at the farmersmarkets,
(09:55):
and just the persistence andyou.
You know, I think they workharder than anyone.
And hasn't that been what we'vesaid about immigrants throughout
history is that when they cometo our country, they're here
because they left somethingreally awful. Like, I always
(10:16):
think about this. I'm like, youdon't leave your home because
you're happy there. Like, Ifyou're happy and you're content
and you're safe, you don't go,especially, like halfway across
the world, like to the exactopposite side of the world.
Sometimes, if things are thatgreat, where you are. And so
when people come here, they dowant to succeed. They don't want
(10:39):
to live the same life that theywere living back there. They
want to create something that'snew and that's fresh and that's
happy and healthy, but that alsodoes not forget who they are,
you know, because so I'mwondering, because I've, I've
met some, some immigrant farmerswho, you know, are really into
growing the types of crops thatthey grow at home. And, you
(11:03):
know, I've spoken with somecassava growers and papaya
growers over in Nigeria andCameroon and so, how does that
work for them, coming over here,like did they? Did they try to
bring their their crops withthem? And did they adapt to this
climate? How did that, you know,that was one of my favorite
things. You know, they wouldbring crops from their home
(11:24):
countries. There's, you know,African corn, that's very
specific that they, that theygrow. And
we had a farmer from Nepal whowould grow some really unique
crops, you know, to be able tohave the food from your home
country when you're in a foreignenvironment. You know, I think
(11:48):
that's so powerful to be able tofeed your family. And you know,
like that the food has, youknow, you were talking about
being destabilized during thesuccession planning and and
moving like that is sodestabilizing, like it takes all
things that you're used to andit rips them away. And I had
(12:10):
not, I'm feeling kind of foolishthat I hadn't really considered
the impact that that food has onrestabilizing you like, helping
you to feel like, okay, we'renot, yeah, we're not completely
displaced, like we've got somesome of us our past is still
with us, to be able to sharethat with their children, who
(12:32):
may have been born here and havenever, you know, seen their
home, homeland,
so And with those of us who arenot from that area. I mean, look
at how many foods we have now.Like, I think about that all the
time, that things that we didfor granted, you know, mangoes
and kiwi and I don't know evendifferent kinds of like, lettuce
(12:52):
type things, stuff that I neverand I grew up on a farm like,
never had exposure to as a kidbecause we didn't have them like
they didn't get shipped acrossthe world to get here, and now
they're staples, like we justthink anything of it. And so
what a gift that is for us to beable to have this variety of
(13:14):
food and culture coming with it.I Yeah, right. I think it only
adds value. And I think, in atime when you know our the
weather is changing, the climateis changing, and you know, we
think about trying to feed ourcommunities, and the more
available crops we have, andwhen they're, you know, folks
are bringing in things that cangrow in this in this bio region,
(13:37):
so that only adds value. It addsa diversity of crops. When
something fails, there'ssomething else, whether it's
pests or weather related and andalso, you know, some of the
folks that I worked with aregrowing things that I'm familiar
with, but they're preparingtheir different parts of them in
different ways, like the leavesfrom summer squash. Like, that's
(14:00):
a, that's a farm product forsome of these farmers, or the
leaves from sweet potatoes. Oh,my God, no, you can eat those.
And are they using them as wrapsaround? No, they're eating them
just plain. But, I mean, sautelike spinach. Oh, awesome. See,
I didn't know that there's awhole way of preparing the
squash leaves, or, you know, youpeel off the spines and strip
(14:25):
like it's whole thing. And I'mlike, I had no idea. So, you
know, there's just so much crosspollination of
food knowledge there.
And I can't speak highly enoughto the some of the government
programs that were able tosupport this work with snap and
Double Up Bucks where folkscould the farmers could be
(14:47):
getting top dollar for theircultural crops and then go sell
them in their community, and thecommunity members, who were
often low income, were able topay half price for them.
Um, to me, that was just a win,win, win.
And so, you know, there's seeingmany of these
(15:08):
programs threatened is, youknow, disheartening, because
it's just, it's putting healthyfood into families bellies,
yeah, and I think especially inin more urbanized areas where
there's a lot of, you know,small farming being done by
immigrant farmers who who areactually really, in some ways,
(15:30):
really well prepared for that,because a lot of their farming
in their home country was morelike what we would call
homesteading. So they're used toworking on on smaller acreage,
but making really, reallyproductive use of that small
grid every square inch. Yeah,great in an urban environment.
But they are also food desertslike and we, we don't understand
(15:52):
that. If you're a middle classAmerican or an upper class
American, you have no concept ofwhat a food desert is. But it's
really hard to get good freshproduce in some areas of the
inner city. So when you havepeople growing it, and the
people who don't have a lot ofmoney can actually access that,
it's it is life changing. Like,literally life changing for the
(16:14):
entire community, like, not justfor the individuals who are
buying or selling or eating orgrowing, but for the entire
community, it changes theculture of the community. It's
just really amazing. Tell Icould talk about this bias. I
have a bias.
Yeah, and right here in RhodeIsland, I can mention, you know,
(16:36):
Southside community, Land Trust,northern Rhode Island
Conservation District, AfricanAlliance, like, there are
wonderful farmers right here whoare growing these crops, who are
on the sankofa project. Youknow, there are just some really
incredible growers right herewho we partner with, and the
organizations that that workwith them, doing great things
(16:58):
here. Yeah, oh, I can't wait toget some of them on our show
too.
Been working on that you're the,you're the for this world.
But I'm gonna, I'm gonna shiftgears a little bit, because,
yes, we could definitely talkabout this all the time. But you
know this farm succession thingthat you were talking about and
(17:19):
the mediation work that you doat cmcri, I think are really,
really important. And so I'mwondering if you can tell me how
you got hooked up with them.Obviously, you had a you had an
unsuccessful successionexperience, which, I mean, you
talked about that as beingdestabilizing. You know? What
(17:39):
was that and it changed thecourse of your your career for a
while. It sounds like becauseyou shouldn't get from wanting
to own your own farm to maybeworking with and for others. So,
so how'd you get into
landing and all that? Yeah, sothat's, that's a great question,
and I think it's a good story.You know, while we were going
(18:00):
through that process of tryingto take over a farm. I was
working with a mediator fromland for good and and
I was like, Oh, this is a job,
very niche job.
I was just introduced to theconcept of mediation and
found like how helpful thatcould be when people, just
(18:24):
humans in general, a lot of thetime, have a hard time really
expressing what they want andcommunicating effectively.
And that only gets morecomplicated when there's
generational differences,
cultural differences, differentpolitical backgrounds. You know,
(18:49):
there's so many layers that canmake communication challenging
and so that, you know, that'sjust sort of a light bulb moment
for me. That's interesting. Whatwere you gonna say, I said, and
emotions, because, you know,once, once you get, you know,
you can have all thosedifferences, and then the then
you hit, like a big emotion,either sadness or anger or fear,
(19:12):
or any of those things. And it'slike, yeah, and then that's all
exacerbated, yeah, yeah, oh,yeah, um, and so, yeah, so I
went through that and did theseother jobs, and was looking for
work in Rhode Island because wewanted to move. And
at post pandemic, or during thepandemic, there was some funding
(19:33):
to support Farm stress. And soit was farm strand, farm stress
Assistance Network, and
the Center for mediation hadapplied with dem for that grant
through the USDA. And so theCenter for mediation is the
agricultural mediation
program of for Rhode Island. Soany state has one of those in
(19:58):
the United States right.
Just out there who arelistening. So if you're if
you're having any conflict,wherever you are in the US, you
should have some they're calledamp programs, agricultural
mediation program. They'recertified with the USDA to
provide free mediation servicesto you
(20:19):
with a large list of, you know,eligible issues that they can
support you on came out of Iwant to say this could be
totally wrong, but I'm prettysure it's from the 80s where
firms, a lot of farms, weredefault, defaulting on loans and
needed some help negotiatingwith predators
and so. But this program hasbeen around for a long time, and
(20:42):
it's a pretty bipartisan program
that's always helpful.
Fact is that mediation, in andof itself, is not a new thing,
and it's not a political thing,like we actually my my ex and I
actually went through mediationprocess when we were, you know,
finalizing custody things for mykids and so and that was
(21:05):
actually after I had beentrained as a mediator at cmcri.
And I remember just sittingthere and watching this woman. I
was like, wow, she is textbook,like, she is so good at what she
does and how she was just ableto cut through a lot of the the
stuff that we throw around asbeing problems, which is, like,
that's not really the problem.What's really the problem is
(21:27):
this. And what you really wantis this, right? And you're like,
oh, oh, yeah, actually, thatthat is what I really want.
Okay, well, what you're askingfor isn't going to give you
that. Oh, it's not No, no, it'snot so. Yes, I firmly am a
believer in especially familieswho are having conflicts on the
(21:49):
farm, to go and try mediation,because it can. It can change
everything.
It really can. And, you know, Ifeel really grateful. You know,
having been trained as amediator and working with farms,
it's, it's refreshing to be notpart of the whatever drama is
happening. It's like I'mstanding on the outside. I have
(22:09):
this clear view, and, you know,to not have any stake. You know,
we are a neutral third party andhere to listen. And you know, we
don't have a directive type ofmediation style in the center,
it's it's very it's had wehelped the different parties
(22:30):
formulate their own solutions byjust getting the facts and
helping people. Because it'sreally hard, the facts get very
obscured by
that at all in
society,
facts and figures. Wait aminute, because you can
(22:51):
interpret them right
between your interpretation ofthe facts and the facts and your
job is definitely to say No,just the facts and but to let
people have their emotions too,right? Absolutely, absolutely
stress. So farm stress funding.There was some covid money that
(23:12):
went out to almost all of the 50states in 2021 2022
and through that process, Stateof Rhode Island was awarded
funding to help farmersnegotiate farm stress and
navigate stress, particularlypost pandemic that really
(23:33):
impacted a lot of farmers indifferent ways, caused a lot of
stress. And so what we did is we
distributed as much of thatfunding directly to farmers in
the state in the form of microgrants to help pay for things
like car repair and equipmentrepair, elder care, child care,
(23:56):
really, really practical stresscausing issues. Yeah, yeah. If
we could have helped pay for
health care, you know, therewere things that we couldn't pay
for that we would have liked to
what there were other thingsthat like, Oh, I wish we could
pay for that. But, you know, wegave out, want to say
(24:20):
150 to 200 micro grants acrossthe state to farmers, fisheries
and forestry workers.
And we also supportedorganizations to help who are
serving farmers, fisheries andforestry workers, to help set up
some programming around stressreduction. And we did a needs
assessment where we gathereddata from those three different
(24:43):
industries to really see what,what is causing the stress?
What? What are they? What arepeople doing when they want to
try to treat whatever stressorsthey have? Yeah, what did you
find? We have, like, a 60 pagereport, if anyone's.
Right? Lots of data.
(25:05):
And because I'm a junkie fordata, we love data too. My boss
is always like, what do you wantto do with that data? Laurel, do
we really is that an essentialquestion? And I'm like, I don't
know. I just want to know. Andshe's like, Okay, well, that we
I don't know. That's not a goodreason to have the question on
there. Curious.
So we have it. I'll use it foryou. I'll take a look at it.
(25:29):
Yeah. And so one of the majoritems, a couple of major things
emerged,
and it was around successionplanning.
And so dem Ken airs at dem, thisis a big priority of his at the
Division of ag. And you know, ifwe look at the statistics of the
(25:51):
average age of the farmer inRhode Island and across the
country, this is not a RhodeIsland problem, but, you know,
we are looking It's,
50s, 5556
and generally, what I've readis, you know, around age 50 is
when you should begin yoursuccession planning.
(26:12):
It doesn't mean you have to beready to hand over your farm at
5055, but it means that youknow, you're thinking about the
future, if something shouldhappen, what? What happens to
your farm? What happens to theland, to the business? How does
that impact if you havechildren?
Yeah, so you know, maybe you'vegot an orchard full of trees.
(26:34):
What happens to those trees? And
so
used to feel really old, butjust for those of you out there,
like I'm 48 so like, that's two,two years from then. So like, it
actually comes a whole lotsooner than you think, when
you're when you're actuallytheir business. Yeah, you feel
(26:56):
like you're in your prime, oryou are just starting your
business. And so to think abouthanding it over can be really,
like, heartbreaking. I wouldthink like, well, starting this
I'm not ready to hand it over,and what I'm hearing you say is
that it's it's not about handingit over. It's about being
prepared in case somethinghappens. It's kind of like an
(27:18):
insurance policy to make surethat you know the people you
care about, or the land you careabout, and you yourself have
what you need. Should, shouldyou need to implement your plan
sooner rather than later?
Accurate way of Yeah,
(27:39):
absolutely, you know, it doesn'tmean that you are signing off
and going to retire, move toFlorida. It. It is really just
the, the emphasis is onplanning,
succession planning, and reallyjust, you know, it's kind of the
last bucket list item, or the todo list item on most people's,
(28:01):
well, I got to go, you know,clear the fence line, or I got
to deliver this order.
I'd rather use the money I haveto fix the tractor instead of
paying an attorney to write up
an estate plan or make a trust.I don't want to deal with that
(28:22):
because it's it's overwhelmingand it's expensive, and I got to
focus on growing my business orjust managing the day to day.
No? Yeah, and you know thatdecision making process that
kind of reminds me of thethere's a matrix that we use
sometimes to prioritize thingslike, what things are urgent?
What things urgent meaning like,there's a time limit on it, you
(28:45):
got to do it, or you're going tomiss the time frame. And then
important, as in, well, itmatters to me a lot, because
it's something that has a bigimpact. And then you have the
things that are, you know,urgent, but not important, and
important and urgent. And solooking at your farm succession
(29:06):
planning, that can feel very noturgent, because your health is
good, your finances are probablypretty stable. You know,
hopefully, if you've beenfarming for a while, you know
your family is growing up, sothey don't need as much from
you, so it might not feel likethe time that it's not urgent,
(29:26):
but I can't emphasize to peoplehow important it really is, and
it's important for you, but it'salso important for the people
you care about, because so manyof us have a mixture of farming
and Non farming people in ourfamily. And so it's not as
simple as well. I'm justhandling it. You know, back in
the day, you just handed it allover to the oldest son, you
(29:49):
know, the oldest son just goteverything, and everybody else
was, like, married off, stuck ontheir own, or, you know,
apprenticed off to the horseshoemaker or something.
But that's not how we do itanymore. Some people do, but
most of us don't. Most of uswant to be a little bit more
equitable to our farming and nonfarming family. And when you're
(30:11):
trying to figure out whatequitable and fair looks like as
a as an owner, as a parent, as agrandparent, whatever that is
that's really, reallychallenging, and I think that's
where the mediation is sohelpful sometimes, because they
can come in and help tease outthe things that are real values
for you, that can help you makethat decision. Yeah, and this is
(30:35):
very far from a one size fitsall situation. You know, I
approach every farm family on anindividual basis, and everyone's
farm succession plan will lookdifferent, and some families
what looks fair to them willlook really unfair to someone
else. But you know, everydynamic in every household is
(30:57):
different, and every farmoperation is different.
Everyone's finances aredifferent, and so it's really
important to help people drilldown and understand what their
needs are. As the farmers, thefarm owners, what they need,
just like you said, what theyneed for their kids, if they
have children who's farmingwho's not, and what do those you
(31:20):
know, what do those folks needas well?
Yeah, it is, it is super tricky.And, you know, I'm, I come from
a multi generational farmbackground, so I've seen, I've
seen farm succession happen,
you know, historically, throughour family. And I know how some
of it has gone well and some ofit has gone poorly, and how
(31:44):
relationships can can suffer.And I grew up in a farm
community, so like my extendedfarm family, you know, I've seen
families torn apart by thiswhole succession thing and and
it doesn't have to be that way,like this is one of the things
that I really want people toknow, is that there are
(32:04):
resources like you out there.And as you said, the farm
mediation. So the FPA, did I getthat right? Amp?
I got that,
which is why I asked the amp,
the farm, certified agriculturalmediation programs. There we go,
(32:25):
certified. So, camp, Camp.
Yeah, I can camp. I canremember, let's go camping.
There we go.
But anyway, there, theseresources are there, and they're
free for a lot of farmers in alot of situations. So yeah, so
that now takes it off of theit's a financial burden, and
(32:46):
puts it back into this. This isa really important thing,
because it's part of yourlegacy. It really is going to be
how people remember you in yourfarm culture, not to put, you
know, pressure and guilt onpeople, but, but there is a fact
that, you know, I mean, I tellmy parents all the time, I'm
like, I don't care what you do,I just want you to get it
(33:08):
straightened out, because I knowthe three of us to have to be
sitting here, the three, becausethere are three siblings, I
don't want to sit in theretrying to figure it out like
that. That's more than I wanted,
and I'm not farming activelyanymore, so it's like, hey, you
know, I get whatever you have todo, but just please do it.
(33:28):
Because, yeah, because then wecan deal with grieving. We don't
have to deal with grieving andtrying to negotiate probate or
probate to do that, my houseisn't a trust like my kids. I
don't even technically own myhouse, like, I mean, it's, it's
an interest for my kids already.So, yeah, so I know that there
are confidentiality issues, andI don't want to, I don't want to
(33:51):
do anything that would violateany of those. But within the
within the framework ofconfidentiality, are there some
examples that you can give us ofways in which different
succession plans worked out forpeople so that they can have an
idea of I think some of us maybeare afraid of succession
planning because we don't evenknow what's possible. I wonder
(34:12):
if there's some possibilitiesyou can give us
Sure. You know, I've worked withfarms, and they kind of have a
sense of what they want already,and they say, Look, I know I
want a revocable trust. I knowthat I want to put the farm into
a trust, and I just need helpfinding a lawyer and putting
(34:34):
some language to that so that Iknow it's protected in the way
that I envision. And I'm like,great, let me help you. We have
legal food hub.
They are they have a presence inRhode Island through the
conservation law foundation.Check their website out. They
will match you with a freeattorney if you qualify to their
financial guidelines, and ifnot, they will still help find
(34:57):
you an attorney who has some um.
A knowledge in agriculture,which can be hard to find.
So they are a big referralpartner of ours.
So I will speak to the longevityof this process. There are some
firms I've been working with forthree years, and it's
(35:20):
a, you know, sign a coupleforms, and it's done. There is a
transition of
the leadership as well asownership. And so just because
the farm owner, and we call themsometimes the owner generation,
they may be ready to starttransferring parts of the farm
(35:40):
ownership. So maybe thatsuccessor gets added to the
LLC, or they get added to thetrust,
or maybe they start being giftedparcels of share, shares or
parcels of the land or shares inthe business over time, or just
(36:01):
money over time,
so that you know that's part ofthe ownership transfer, and then
leadership transfer. How do westart to transfer the decision
making power? That piece couldbe really tricky. So maybe you
can, maybe, maybe some ownershiphas changed, but it's really
it's really tricky. You need tohave a lot of trust in that next
(36:23):
generation,
and a lot of flexibility on bothends, and a lot of ability to
communicate. Trying to think ofwhat other examples
I know.
Sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was justgonna say, you know, I also know
a farmer who who worked on afarm, came into ownership of
(36:45):
that farm with the intention ofnot passing it on. She wanted to
make sure that it stayed a farmduring kind of a vulnerable
time, and built up the businessso that she knew it would be
successful in the future, andthen sold it. Which I was like,
wow. Like, I thought that waspretty inspiring to sort of have
the end goal
when she went into it being notto hand it down to her family,
(37:07):
and to just sort of, this was aproject and a business, and to
keep it
kind of structured that way inher mind, and sell it to another
farmer. I'm she did, and nowit's, it's a business that's
still going and thriving. And,you know, she made a lot of
investments in order to grow itto a certain point that she
(37:28):
thought would be a viablebusiness. And so she really sort
of saved that farm in a way,wow. And I really inspiring. I
was like, that's a really
smart way to do, yeah, well,that and it's very rare. It's
very rare that would be butthat, again, that speaks to what
her values were. You know, her,her value was, what was I really
(37:51):
appreciate this farm. Iappreciate what it offers. And I
don't see this farm as mine. Isee this almost as like a
community asset, and I want tomake sure that somebody else is
going to going to treat it inthe same way now, where I'm just
curious, because I get, I getstuck in the weeds, then I'm
like, Oh, how does that work? Sodid she have any restrictions on
(38:16):
the next owner about keeping itas a farm? Or, I know sometimes,
sometimes people get in that area little again, that can be,
yeah, they're
was a, I think there was a fewyears, I think it was, you know,
a pretty extensive negotiationprocess. And I honestly don't
remember off the top of my head,but I think there were some
(38:36):
restrictions on, you know, acertain timeline before it could
be sold again. Or I don't, Idon't remember, but that comes
up as well, sort of, if there isa sale, even to a family member,
do you trust that person to notturn around in? You know, in
Rhode Island, we have thehighest agricultural values of
the country at $22,000 an acre.
(38:59):
You know, we're talking milliondollar properties sometimes.
And,
yeah, how do you, how do youensure that that property stays
a farm? And there are severalmechanisms to do that. You know,
trusts are a way to do that.
Easements are a way to do that.
And yeah, so there are, thereare ways to sort of,
(39:23):
and several people don't want tobe restricting the farmers from
the grave.
Sometimes an easement isn't theright choice. Easements can be
really helpful, but they canalso be very restrictive. And
you know, there make it. Youdon't know what economic needs
(39:43):
the next generation is going tohave. And maybe they do need to
carve out a parcel and get somesome free up some cash to build
and build some infrastructure,make an investment in the firm.
And so you know that there areseveral ways to.
To sort of make the farm be staya farm in perpetuity. But it's
(40:05):
really, it's, again, not onesize fits all. It's finding the
right way to do that. But trustsand easements are great options
depending on you know thescenario. Sure. And then I guess
one other question on this topicis, I know that there are
farmers who have the nextgeneration. Either they don't
(40:28):
have a next generation, or theirnext generation is completely
uninterested in farming, and yetthey do have that value of
keeping keeping the farm a farm.So how do people go, go ahead
and connect with some of themany, many farmers who are
looking for land but don't havethem because a lot, kind of like
(40:50):
you were describing your ownstory, they're coming from
farming to farming from outsideof the industry, and so they
don't have that land beinghanded down to them. How do you
make help them make thoseconnections and vet people and
make sure that you know
the the energy aligns and allthat stuff. I'm so glad you
(41:10):
brought that up.
So we have been over the pastyear, starting to put together a
land access network in thestate,
and but there are. So I work ona grant through the American
Farmland Trust, and it's calledthe farm transfer navigator
(41:32):
program. And so there arepeople, almost all 50 states
have someone like me working onthis grant, trying to answer
that question. And there arevarious land linking
websites, entities out there,across the country. I know
internationally,
(41:52):
internationally as well. I'msure you know there are, I can't
name any specifically, but Iknow you know, regionally,
there's the New England farmlandfinder, you know, speaking from
a Rhode Island perspective, wemay have one property on there,
you know, unfortunately, thelist of land seekers far exceeds
(42:14):
that of what is listed formallyon online. And so we know we
have a lot more people lookingfor land than we do people
offering it, but that doesn'tmean it's not available or will
be available in the next 20years. So you know, we really
have our work cut out for us tobuild those relationships and
(42:34):
help landowners, farmers and andthe next generation of farmers.
And so, yeah, we've been workingI've been pulling together. I
have a list of 100
people that I've invited to this
land access network. And it'sreally, I'm starting with just
the organizational leaders andservice providers to really
(42:56):
coordinate. What are the optionsout there? I think lots, you
know, I think all the states areworking on that. I can point to
Connecticut. I think theyConnecticut Land Trust. I've
been watching what they'redoing, and they have a really
interesting last year, they theydid some open houses at farms,
(43:17):
but they had a whole processwhere they worked with the
landowner ahead of time, reallyidentified exactly what they're
looking for,
and then had a whole applicationprocess for farmers. No one
could just show up.
There was a lot of only baby.And it was, it was really like,
Okay, we want a serious farmer.They have a business plan. They,
(43:39):
you know, have this many yearsof experience and we're going to
offer. We do not have housing.We want this much for the lease.
We don't want this kind offarming. We want that kind of
farming, you know, to really beclear ahead of time before doing
any sort of matchmaking efforts.I think, did it? Did it work
out? I don't know, um, but Ithought that was a really good
(44:00):
strategy just from the outside,
and we have been partnering, andland for Good is doing some
really interesting work aroundrecruiting and training
landowners. Yeah, they've beenworking on that for a long time,
and they've been, they've beendoing this work forever. And
back when I was an extensionagent at URI, and what was that?
Well, my son's 13, so, like, 13years ago,
(44:24):
yeah, we were, we were trying tocrack this nut then, like,
trying to figure out how to, howto make the system work. And it
seems on the outside like anonline system would be so easy
and so simple, but it reallyisn't, because it totally takes
out the human, the human side ofit, you know, it just looks at
the land side.
(44:46):
So I know that you are motheringa sick child today. So we are
going to
stop this amazing conversation,which I can keep talking. You'll
have to do another time. Yeah, Ican.
Do. I could do a whole anothersession on land access, yeah,
because this is a huge, a hugetopic, and very passionate about
(45:08):
it as well. And I did forget tomention, just for the purposes
of your listeners, we
through that farm StressNetwork. We also put together a
mental health helpline forfarmers. And I think, you know,
just remembering the mentalhealth aspect of farm succession
(45:28):
and the stresses of trying tofarm, whether you're going to be
farmer or an experienced farmer,there are resources out there as
well. So excellent, one of my,one of my big things. So yeah,
exactly. I gotta tell you like,I've loved this conversation.
I've loved hearing what you'redoing. I think it's really
(45:49):
valuable for our listeners.Because I think all farmers
really, really need to beconsidering all of these issues
at some point.
And so thinking about what allfarmers need? I'm going to ask
you my signature question, whichis, if you had one piece of
advice that you thought allfarmers should have, what would
(46:09):
that be?
I think, be honest withyourself,
how what's working, what's notworking.
Because I think from whetheryou're a beginning farmer or
you're a generational farmer,it's like this, you have to make
(46:31):
your farm work for you
and so but a lot of that takesinterest back introspection, and
there may be a version of yourfarm that
you don't it's not there yet,
but it's okay for your farm tolook different than it has in
(46:52):
the past, and so not beingafraid to make the changes
to make your farm work for you.So being honest with yourself
about is this working? BecauseI've been burned out, and I
don't want anyone else to burnout, out there. We need our
young, Spry farmers to be takingover inspiring farms and feeding
(47:16):
our communities so and in a waythat is sustainable for them,
like that's we always talk aboutall other types of
sustainability, but thatsustainability for the farmer
is, is really, that's my heartcry because, you know, I've said
it before, but you can have allthe beautiful land that you
want, and if you don't have afarmer to work at, it's just
(47:39):
dirt. Exactly. You're notgrowing anything. You're not
producing anything. It might bebeautiful wildlife habitat, but
it's not going to feed the thenations. So
yeah. So thank you so much. Thishas been such a pleasure, and
thank your daughter for sharingus with you while, while she's
(48:00):
not feeling well, and everybodyelse out there, I hope to see
you again next time on food,flowers and fun. Great. Thank
you so much, K, take care.
Farmwork's calling our show isall done, goodbye, farewell. So
long adieu. See you next week,same time, same place for Food,
(48:22):
Flowers and Fun, go in peace.
Visit us atwww.penlightfarmers.com
you.
Popular Podcasts
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.
The Brothers Ortiz
The Brothers Ortiz is the story of two brothers–both successful, but in very different ways. Gabe Ortiz becomes a third-highest ranking officer in all of Texas while his younger brother Larry climbs the ranks in Puro Tango Blast, a notorious Texas Prison gang. Gabe doesn’t know all the details of his brother’s nefarious dealings, and he’s made a point not to ask, to protect their relationship. But when Larry is murdered during a home invasion in a rented beach house, Gabe has no choice but to look into what happened that night. To solve Larry’s murder, Gabe, and the whole Ortiz family, must ask each other tough questions.