Guayna - Land of Giants

Guyana, where rivers weave tails as they rush down from Kaiteur's thundering height to rainforest canopies bathed in a golden light. Nestled on the northern coast of South America, Guiana is a land where raw natural beauty and vibrant cultural diversity intertwine to create an enchanting destination for globetrotters. Often called the land of many waters, Guyana is a haven for eco-tourists and adventurers alike.

 

Episode Transcript

(00:02):
Guiana, where rivers weave tails as they rush down from Cajetas thundering height torainforest canopies bathed in a golden light.
Nestled on the northern coast of South America, Guiana is a land where raw natural beautyand vibrant cultural diversity intertwine to create an enchanting destination for
globetrotters.

(00:22):
Often called the land of many waters, Guiana is a haven for eco-tourists and adventurersalike.
boasting vast stretches of pristine rainforests, majestic rivers and awe-inspiringwaterfalls.
Hey there everyone, I'm Don, Professor Goaie and welcome to the Goaie Pro Travel Talepodcast.

(00:49):
Travel far and gravel often.
Hey everyone, today we are talking all things Ghana and we're also going to touch onSuriname and French.
Tony Thorne, who is the managing director of Wilderness Explorers.
And he's coming to us live today from Guiana.
Is that correct, Tony?
Because you're also a fellow Aussie.
So I speaking to you, I thought you were in Australia, but I think you said you are inGuiana.

(01:14):
that correct?
Yes, I am in Georgetown, Guiana at the moment.
OK, and let's start with the real basic.
Georgetown is the capital of the country.
Yeah, Georgetown is the capital.
It's on the coast.
faces the North Atlantic.
So if you were to think of South America, Northeast shoulder, we sit there betweenVenezuela and Suriname above Brazil.

(01:40):
There you go.
That answers the other question of where Guyana is.
And not to be confused with Ghana in West Africa, G-H-A-N-A, with Guyana in South America.
Absolutely.
We have a lot of people say, you're off to Africa.
No, absolutely not.
So it is a common error that people make getting us in the wrong continent.

(02:01):
When I was a tour guide with Dragoman in Central America, we would often have people likewe'd look at our passenger list of who's arriving in a week or two.
the starting point out of Guatemala was San Pedro, no, I can't remember, Antigua, Antigua,Guatemala.

(02:21):
On more than one occasion, people from the UK had booked their flights to Antigua in theCaribbean.
Have you ever had anyone not show up because I've ended up in West Africa?
Not that I'm aware of though.
I did as a joke tell my mother when my brother was arriving, oh no, he's booked a flightto the wrong continent.
believed me.
But I don't believe if anyone booked the wrong one, but if you book just Georgetown,there's many Georgetown's around.

(02:48):
you got to make sure.
is the right Georgetown because there's Georgetown throughout the Caribbean, NorthAmerica.
So that's it.
You make sure it's Georgetown, Guyana.
There is an expert tip for everyone listening out there.
Guyana is what you want to Tony, as I said, you're a fellow Australian and I believe youdo spend some time in Australia.
So on that note, how did you end up with your own company in Guyana, which is probably,well, one of the reasons we're doing the podcast is to bring awareness to the country

(03:15):
because there's probably one along with French Suriname,
So with with Suriname and French, Keala often overlooked with people when they lookedsouth South America.
So how did you end up with your own company in?
Yeah, well, I was just backpacking living in the UK at the time.
I have an ex military background, so I thought I'd join the territorial army in the UK.

(03:38):
And through that, I was invited to apply for a position on an expedition out to Guyana.
I accepted the position without even knowing where it was.
So I thought, well, if I don't know where it is, that's exotic enough for me.
So I then found out where Georgetown was where I had to buy a flight to.
So I had four months out here on expedition.
Just love the wildness, remoteness.

(03:58):
I then went back to Australia and then decided I was going to backpack through SouthAmerica.
So I bought a one way ticket to Santiago.
Only two things were planned.
One was to be in Rio for Carnival.
The other one was to be in Georgetown for Australia versus West Indies test match.

(04:25):
celebrate it is the worst possible feeling for Travis Head as a batsman he is goneAustralia four down game back on so I watched that whilst I was there I met up with
someone from my first trip who said we've just opened little jungle lodge would you liketo manage it for six months while I was backpacking I thought well why not why not my

(04:47):
girlfriend who was traveling with me at the time said
but you know nothing about tourism, which was right.
But you shouldn't tell me I can't do anything.
So she left.
I stayed for three years.
ran that business to sell the rooms.
I realized I had to package it with other locations.
No one was coming to Ghana just this little lodge I ran.
So I accidentally became a tour operator.

(05:10):
And then after three years, look, I'll start my own business.
So I came out to Ghana, not knowing where it was, really not knowing what to expect.
but I just really loved the rawness, how untouched it was.
I guess I do like a challenge and here I am, years later, working in the industry here and30 of those years with my own business.

(05:35):
Now, you mentioned that you liked the sort of, well, it was the adventure aspect thatattracted you there, the ruggedness of the country is that the only attraction that's kept
you there?
Like, what is it about Ghana that...
I can spy as you do it.
I see.
That's a good reason.

(05:56):
There's more to it than cheap run though.
No, I don't think that for me, not having languages as a skill, it's English speaking, theonly English speaking country in South America.
So that meant I didn't have a language barrier.
And then I discovered that there's lots of communities out there, particularly indigenouscommunities that.

(06:17):
don't have much opportunities for work and that our style of tourism could bringemployment to them.
So from a professional perspective, one, we can earn money, but two, we can do some reallygood, interesting things, helping communities.
So there's a certain level of personal satisfaction involved in that.
And that, I guess, helps outweigh some of the frustrations and challenges of working in acountry that has been considered very much a developing country for many years.

(06:44):
So that's changing dramatically now.
fact, Guyana is the fastest growing economy in the world and has been the last two years.
So the face of the country is changing very, very quickly at the moment.
Luckily, that doesn't impact our tourism in the interior.
That's not really being impacted more around the city, but it's a fast changing country atthe moment.

(07:06):
let me ask you this.
You mentioned language barrier, English speaking.
So what is like in a capsule description, what's the history of Guyana?
As I assume it's been a British colony protectorate in its early days, I assume it's anindependent country now.
Like, can you give listeners a quick rundown of its political situation?

(07:28):
Yeah.
So the indigenous people, obviously the original habitants, there's five different nationsof indigenous people here.
Then during the period when the Portuguese and Spanish were coming out, taking largeportions of South America, this
particularly Eri Long here was fought over by the French, Dutch and English.
So Guyana has been at one stage or another a Dutch colony, belonged to the French and theEnglish.

(07:54):
So it ended up being English.
It was British Guyana until independence in 1966.
So because it's very rich for agriculture, Sugar was the king back then.
So there's a very dark history in terms of.
Tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of Africans came out as slaves to work thesugar estates.

(08:17):
When slavery was abolished, then indentured laborers mainly from India, but also Madeiraand Portugal and Chinese.
So the cultural makeup of the country is really not typical of Latin America because youhave the largest population mixes originally Indian, then African, smaller populations of
Chinese, Portuguese, indigenous people, and then just general.

(08:39):
so European so very different culturally more aligned to the Caribbean in terms of alongthe coast there's more Caribbean feel quite different in the interior again because
there's very small populations and mainly indigenous people so it makes it and in factthat's true of the three Guyanas that they're because they don't have a Latin background

(09:00):
they're culturally very different and then they look more to in Ghana's case to the UK andthe US Suriname very
if the Dutch and French Guyanas not even a country, it's a department of France, so it'spart of the European Union.
So they are very unlike our South American neighbors.

(09:20):
Right.
You mentioned that Guiana is one of the fastest growing economies in the world.
I think either you told me or someone told me recently that there's been an oil discoveryoff the coast of Guiana.
Is that true?
Yeah.
So Guiana traditionally
was pretty much agriculture in terms of sugar and rice, extractive industries like timber,gold, oxide.

(09:44):
So oil was discovered offshore.
They had booked onshore, previously never found a viable amounts to make it worthwhile.
Found offshore since late 2019, been pumping oil, so exons here pumping out hugequantities of oil, which is benefiting the country.

(10:06):
So because of that, Georgetown in particular, is where they're based from, all the oil ishappening 200 odd kilometers offshore, but the infrastructure to support that in terms of
your helicopters and your ships that are resupplying out to the rigs and so on is allhappening out of Georgetown.
So a large expat market now here in Guyana, people coming in working for two and threeyear contracts.

(10:31):
So a large contingent of people and that's leading to a lot of business development.
The positive thing from the tourism perspective is that we've already had one new hotelopen up this year.
There's a couple more that will happen in the next six months.
I think there's another 10 odd hotels being slated to be built.
Now they're mainly business hotels, but our tourists need to stay somewhere, so there'sgoing to be a much wider selection of rooms.

(10:56):
But the big one for us is the additional flights that are coming in that we didn't havepreviously.
On the back of oil, American Airlines have been flying in now for about five years.
In fact, they have daily flights out of both New York and Miami into Georgetown.
This year, United Airlines started a service out of Houston, and they're flying six days aweek direct into Georgetown.

(11:20):
The big one for our UK market is British Airways now has a service coming in twice a weekvia St.
Lucia direct out of Gatwick.
In June this year, June next year KLM is starting a service twice a week into Georgetownas well.
just yesterday, Avianca started to service Bogota to Georgetown direct.

(11:41):
One of my staffs headed off to Grenada today on a brand new direct service to Grenada.
So Guyana is just exploding.
the airlines really are important.
They're bringing in oil workers.
It's for that.
But then on the back of that, it's really benefiting our tourism industry as well.
Well, I guess one of the biggest, I know, I don't want to say roadblock.

(12:04):
You can always get there if you want to get there, but it's always nice to fly somewheredirectly.
So I know in the early days, it was always difficult to get there, but obviously, yousaid, it's very easy.
And I believe we just had one of our staff visit you down in Guyana, Susanna.
believe she flew directly from Toronto.
Is that also another option?
Yeah, there's flights out of Toronto.
So four days.

(12:26):
A week you can fly with Caribbean Airlines via Port of Spain, Trinidad, and then threedays a week you can do a direct service out of Toronto straight into Georgetown.
So pretty much the North American market is well serviced.
You've also got Copa.
If you want to take off the West Coast, you can do a Copa down to Panama City and connectto Georgetown with Copa as well.
So at the moment, our airlift is just increasing all the time and it's really changing theface of tourism for us.

(12:52):
kidding.
And also opens up options.
mentioned Bogota, could do a Columbia-Irish combination.
Yeah, no, absolutely.
And having KLM come in, for example, you can do a combination with Guyana, Cerna andFrench Guyana.
So you could use an open-jaw ticket in through Georgetown and KLM and leave with AirFrance, their sister airline out of Cayenne, for example.
So you don't need to backtrack anymore.

(13:14):
So you can just use an open-jaw airfare and fly in and out of Europe.
So it's really going to open up new markets.
And as you mentioned, whilst you could always get here.
people must prefer if there's a more direct route and in particular with airlines thatthey know, the KLM's, your BA's, your Americans are all well-known established airlines.

(13:34):
Right, so I guess in the 30 odd years you've been down there, particularly with thislatest discovery, you've seen some major change in the country and I would guess, again
it's a positive, as you say, airlift, more people will be able to get there, but I guessagain having not been there, as said, it's...
It's last country in South America I've not visited, so we'll get down there and see itsoon.

(13:58):
But I guess now would be a good time to get down there before, like it's not going to getoverpopulated and overrun in the next couple of years, but it is getting busier.
So now would be a good time to see, guess, the term, you know, the old Gana, the way itwas, the way it is before it gets more developed.
Is that a fair statement or do you think it's...
Yeah, I mean...

(14:19):
...a slower burn?
Yeah, I mean, certainly around the city.
that's already changing dramatically, a lot of new buildings, brand new roads, hospitalschools, but people are coming really for Georgetown as an entry and exit point.
There's a couple of great excursions we do around the city, but primarily people arecoming to go deep into the interior and that will take much longer and they're remote

(14:44):
areas with its very small populations, mainly indigenous people.
So the change there is likely to be much slower.
It certainly won't be the same as what's happening in Georgetown.
So their lifestyle will change slightly, I guess.
There's more money coming in.
In fact, the government's giving a cash grant to all people over 18 in Guyana.

(15:05):
So there's money going directly into their pockets, let alone what's happening in terms ofinfrastructure and things like that benefiting people.
But it is getting.
more popular, there's more people coming and most of our lodges are very small, only sixand eight rooms.
So it's not very difficult to have a lodge booked out.

(15:26):
And when I say booked out, you know, it's only 14 to 16 people.
So it's very small scale tourism.
So if people do want to get off the beaten track and go to places, it's very personal.
You're very much involved with the owners or the communities where you're staying.
It's the right sort of place to come to.
And I don't see it changing.

(15:46):
hugely in the next couple of years.
But that said, I couldn't have predicted what would be happening to Georgetown five yearsago.
It's like I never expected it to happen.
We knew it was going to happen when the oil industry came in, but I could never havepredicted how quickly it happened.
So I was stunned by that.
Now, when you found yourself in Ghana and you decided to start your own business, youmentioned

(16:13):
the community aspect of it, like obviously making money is what it's about a business for,but you also mentioned the ability to assist through employment or otherwise.
Now this would have been done way back when before that type of tourism was sort of trendyor even at the forefront of people's minds.
So why did it strike a chord with you back then?

(16:37):
And obviously you've maintained that involvement.
style of travel.
just give us a background on why that's important to you personally and why obviously inthe modern day it's important professionally.
Yeah, so the very first lodge I worked at was actually within a indigenous communitiesarea.

(16:58):
It's a small piece of land leased from them, the people working at the lodge we employedfrom the local community.
So I guess I had a grounding right at very beginning.
I guess one of the light bulb moments for me was
Probably in the first year I was here there were some people sort of coming down saying,Guyana, you can't be cutting any of forest down.

(17:18):
That would be honest, very little of it's cut down at all.
87 % of the country's rainforest.
But they were telling people that you can't be doing this.
And I thought to myself, if they're telling them not to cut the forest down, how are theygoing to feed their kids?
If you're not offering them an alternative, you can't ask them to protect the environment.
And I guess I realized then that the type of tourism that we have

(17:41):
meant that we could be part of that solution in terms of giving employment opportunities.
So in the 90s, or mid-90s when I started the business, I started to travel deeper into theinterior met.
One person in particular, Sidney Alacock, who was a lead room in his village, quitevisionary.

(18:01):
He saw that tourism could be good for the community.
And we said to him, how about we work with you?
you should own your own product, we'll work with you, we're not asking to employ you, wewill help you develop your product and we'll take it to market.
So he went and convinced his community which took some doing and then he said, come on,let's just give it a try, what do we have to lose?

(18:24):
So we signed a memorandum of understanding for two years and we've never resigned it sincebecause we don't need to now, are business partners in terms of, we bring them business,
we help them develop their product.
So they run their own lodge.
And in fact, few years after that, we started a separate company called Community andTourism Services.

(18:47):
So Sarama is an owner in that company, along with ourselves, and also an NGO, IroquamaInternational Center, which has a million acre rainforest reserve.
And we manage and operate a lodge within that reserve as a company of which we arepartners with an indigenous community.
So it's been very much part of our, I guess, DNA since the beginning in terms of, and ourcompany policy talks about bringing benefits to local communities, even though when we

(19:15):
wrote it 30 years ago, we weren't really sure what that meant.
It took time to, I guess, to work out if we're going to develop to our company policy, howdo we go about doing it?
And since then, we've developed very good working relationships with many communities,helping them develop and bring product to market.
And in fact this year through the Latin American Travel Association we one of thesustainability awards for our work with indigenous communities.

(19:43):
So we're pretty proud about that to get some recognition for the work we are doing withcommunities.
And even in our own business we employ people completely on their merits but we have ourgeneral managers and indigenous woman.
We have two other or three other members of our team are indigenous people as well.
And that's purely because

(20:03):
they're the right fit for the job, also it's, you know, our company is well balanced interms of having a good mix of people of different ethnic makeup within the company.
So would the bulk of your travel offerings for Guiana be based on community lodges, etc.?

(20:26):
Because again, knowing Guiana from afar, we're looking at her and that's...
As you say, you've got the coastline Georgetown and most of where people travel is intothe interior.
You've already mentioned that most of that is indigenous areas.
So I would assume that most of your product is indigenous community based.
Well, a lot of people are coming because they're birdwatchers or interested in wildlife.

(20:50):
They want to see rainforest as a byproduct of that.
You're going into areas where the lodges are.
owned and run by indigenous communities quite often, or they're the people working withprivately owned lodges.
So by default, they end up having a strong cultural experience.
Even though that may not be their purpose of traveling, they end up, it's inevitable thatthey'll have that.

(21:13):
And other people are traveling because they are seeking out that opportunity to meetpeople of a different background, particularly indigenous people.
So every tour to some element once you go to the interior has some involvement withcommunities and indigenous people because they are the people that live in those areas.

(21:33):
They're the people that know where to find the wildlife.
They're the best guides.
They look after lodgers.
So they really go hand in hand.
So if you're coming to do a bird watching trip, your guides are going to be indigenouspeople because they know where to find the birds for you.
with the bulk of the

(21:54):
traveling being done in the interior.
And we discussed infrastructure report, how it's improving on the coast in Georgetown.
What can a client or a traveler expect when they go to Guiana?
Is it going to be a rustic experience in respect to accommodation, condition of roads,that type of thing?
Are there four star or are there five star options?

(22:14):
Give us a quick overview of what someone will expect and will experience when they travelinto Guiana.
Once you get out of the city the lodges tend to be fairly simple.
They're rustic, basic.
You'll have your own ensuite bathroom, but in most cases it'll just be cold water.
But we're nearly on the equator so it's always hot anyway.

(22:38):
They are going to be built probably out of local materials from the forest, often wooden,sometimes with thatched roofs.
So luxury is not in terms of the accommodation, the luxury is in being in
truly remote, wild places, getting to see wildlife in undisturbed locations.
So people should only come if they understand they're not going to have air conditioning.

(22:59):
It's not going to be a luxury lodge, but they're going to really be, know, nature will beall around them.
They'll be immersed in it.
In terms of the infrastructure, I use the words roads, but they're really more tracksthrough the forest and savannas.
So they can be pretty rough.
using four wheel drives and vehicles to get to locations.

(23:21):
We use a lot of boat travel because it's not roads, but we use rivers to get betweenpoints.
So a transfer between lodges is an excursion in its own right, because as you travel,you'll be wildlife watching.
So on a day when you go to your first lodge, you might be taking a light aircraft to flydown deep into the interior to do in one hour what would take you 12 hours.

(23:43):
Then you're picked up by a four wheel drive that takes you to a boat to get you to alodge.
So just getting to location could be quite exciting with lots of different forms oftransport as well.
So without the accommodation aspect, i.e.
it's generally rustic, three, maybe four if you're lucky.
It sounds very similar to an African survival experience.
It does the wildlife and the transplants and getting to and from water bases.

(24:07):
Is that a fair comparison, do you think?
The only country I've been to in Africa was Tunisia, which is probably not your typicalAfrican country.
Certainly, yes, we often get compared to that.
I think particularly in the South, in the Ropuneni savannas, people often comment how itlooks like a scene out of Africa with the huge grasslands.

(24:30):
So these are tropical wetlands.
Yes, I mean, many of the tented camps and lodges in Africa are very high end.
terms of accommodation and I think Guyana aspires to that sometime in the future.
We will start to see lodges and certainly it's on our drawing board to get something likethat happening in the future.

(24:53):
But in the meantime there are simple lodges, people are coming, traveling comfortably andsometimes we'll have quite high-end clients who know they've got to give up some of the
creature comforts but they're willing to do that to get into these locations to get youknow.
wildlife and nature orientated excursion.
So it is a bit of a trade-off as many things are in life and you can counterbalance thatby of course you've got five-star hotels in the city and often particularly for Europeans

(25:23):
they might then combine a trip with the St.
Lucia for example where they can stay in a lovely resort hotel on the way back so they'llcome to Guyana for the adventure then possibly ramp it up at a nice hotel on the way home.
travel partners out there, Go Way doesn't do the Caribbean, but that combination ofbeaches can quite easily be done.

(25:47):
We can help with that though, Don.
We can provide the Caribbean link for you.
From the Go Way's point of view, have the Colombian beaches, I guess it's more the pointthat Tony's bringing that you can always add your luxury real post.
I think that's one of the attractions again.

(26:08):
It's sort of I don't really really use the term old school, but I guess it really is.
It's old school travel with respect to I guess crowds would be not an issue because as youmentioned, the world is quite small and it's the old school adventure style of travel,
which you can't really get a lot anymore as more and more countries are becomingoverdeveloped as well.
Sounds like.

(26:29):
yeah, yeah, it's the place to be.
You're certainly not going to see see crowds of people.
Kaito Falls, which is our single biggest tourism traction last year had something like10,000 visitors for the year.
They're coming in, spending two hours on the ground and leaving.
We're hoping to have a lodge up and operating there next year, which will offer just ahandful of rooms.

(26:54):
And being able to spend overnight there is a really special magical experience.
But you'll be doing it with maybe up to eight people, 10 people.
And the lodges are the same.
It's not uncommon to do a trip where you don't bump into any other tourists on the trip.
Particularly if you're a group and you're filling the lodge, as you move from lodge tolodge, you're probably not going to encounter other people.

(27:15):
And I think that's pretty rare.
Sorry to interrupt there, but just on that point of you mentioned the word group, Gawaihas a large groups department.
From a numbers point of view, if someone is looking at a group of birdwatchers, naturelovers, what could be the maximum that you could comment
date in one booking per se?

(27:36):
it only the 14 to 15 night?
Could you handle a group of 40 if someone came?
Not in one location in the interior, no.
Most of lodges, as I mentioned, are six to eight rooms.
most birdwatchers don't, they don't want to be in groups of more than about 12 generally.
If we have larger size groups, sometimes we'll do

(27:58):
We'll have out of Georgetown and do experiences, day trips out of Georgetown, or you cansplit the group up between multiple lodges.
Guyana is not set up like a Costa Rica, for example, where they might have 40 or 15bedroom hotels.
And we often get compared to Costa Rica because they're very much nature based.
And I've spent three weeks in Costa Rica a few years ago.

(28:21):
Wonderful experience, but you're sharing it with three million visitors a year.
You go into a national park there and there's hundreds of people in there.
We go into our one national park here and there might be 10 or 20 people.
So it is a completely different experience.
And you talk about old school.
Yes, it's probably how Costa Rica might have been 40 years ago or how I imagine it mighthave been before they had all the major developments.

(28:50):
So certainly coming to Guyana now, if you want to sort of go back in time.
And what's really nice on the lodges is you sit down at the
dining table with your hosts.
It's not like a restaurant setting.
It's like being in a family house.
And people love that.
The stories that happen around the dinner table.
think you'd lose that when you get too many people.

(29:10):
So Guyana still has that sort of sense of being with your hosts and having that verypersonal experience.
we get more and more questions to our destination specialists on destinations to go wherethey can avoid crowds, where it can be something.
different and it sounds like it's basically that destination.

(29:34):
When you're traveling around Canada, mentioned Coyote Falls.
From a statistical point of view in South America, you have Iguazu, the largest, Angel,the tallest.
think Gocto in Peru is the longest first free fall, something like that.
They make some claim to fame there.
But does Coyote Falls sit within any sort of stat

(29:57):
Yeah, well it's known as the tallest single drop waterfall in the world.
So Angel Falls, which is not that far from Kaitua, is taller, but it hits a number oftimes on the way down.
So Kaitua the first hit the 741 feet, then there's another 82 feet after that.
So we concentrate on that first 741 feet.

(30:17):
It's a very wide waterfall in comparison to Angel Falls, for example.
Iguazu
is a fraction of the height in comparison, it's very wide.
But also you have thousands of tourists a day at Iguazu, whereas the Kaitua, you might beon an aircraft for 12 feet, but you're the only people there.
So in North American contexts, it's nearly five times higher than Niagara Falls, forexample.

(30:43):
Having visited all the falls, just mentioned, know with Gokdu, you can walk to the base ofIguazu, above it, below it, in it, it.
Angel Falls, you
You sort of go up the river by boat and camp at the base.
With the Cuyahoga Falls experience, is it some of those options or is it just a flyover?

(31:03):
No, so there's an airstrip there.
So most tourists will fly in aircraft of land, you'll go to various vantage points from anearly full frontal view right to the near the mouth of the falls.
There is an option to do an overland multi-day overland trek, which takes you up thegorge.
You can get to the base, so it is really
tough and difficult, would only be for very hardy people when it's rarely done.

(31:27):
Though that said, if we're successful in getting the logic kite tour, there's one thatcomes with it down in the gorge and we'd look to create a more adventure market down there
where we would have treks to the base of the falls, which would be for the quiteadventurous market.
So it does offer multiple faces and also different times of the day.
So at dusk at the falls, thousands of swifts.

(31:51):
congregate above the falls and then like as if there's some someone controlling them theydive in and they roost behind the falls they actually roost on the rock face behind the
falls for protection so that's something you only get that if you're overnight there firstthing in the morning the whole gorge is just filled with mist it takes a couple hours to

(32:14):
burn off so different times of the day off of different faces of the falls
In addition to that you've got the Gynan cock of the rock which is a regional endemicbird.
People might know the Andy and cock of the rock.
Different species same family.
So that's quite unique.
Then you have a little golden frog which is about the size of your thumbnail.

(32:35):
It's endemic to the region lives inside a giant bromeliad that grows up to up to fivemeters in height again endemic to the area.
So it's not just the falls there's lots of great natural history around it as well.
What's the
largest game of wildlife.

(32:57):
In terms of the cats, you've got jaguars, puma, ocelot, margay, all difficult to see.
The jaguar is probably amongst the easiest to see, you've got to have a set amount ofluck.
Amongst the birds you've got harpy eagle, which is the largest raptor in the Americas.
You've got tapir, which is guess the largest mammal.

(33:18):
You have giant river otters, which they go up to seven feet in length.
We've got giant anteaters which are huge animals that go out in savannahs of the sea.
And then we also have Arapaima which is the largest-scale freshwater fish in the world.
goes up to 350 to 400 pounds, 12 to 14 feet.

(33:39):
And it's a lungry that has to come to the surface to breathe.
So very ancient fish.
It sort of goes back to the time of dinosaurs.
there's lots of...
Guyana is known as the land of giants.
There's lots of species that are very big.
What's the likelihood of seeing a jaguar on one of your itineraries?
it seasonal?
Do you have itineraries in spot?

(34:01):
Yeah, you've got to have bit of luck.
There's very healthy populations out there, but you're in thick forest.
They're apex predators that range over a large area.
You're pretty much restricted to the paths and roads.
So are you going to be on the road at the same time a jaguar is on it?
And they do use the road for hunting along the verge.
They use it to dry out during the rainy season.

(34:22):
So most sightings are seen along the roads, but there's a certain amount of luck, even ifyou're spending time searching for them, you've got to a certain amount of luck.
So you probably shouldn't base your trip around a jaguar.
It should be that you base it on other things than a jaguar is an extra bonus that youmight be lucky enough to get.
Right.
So any fishermen that are out or fisher persons, can you fish on a trip to Guyana or isthat restricted?

(34:53):
No, you can fish.
fact, we have some groups coming down.
They're purely coming for fishing.
So Arapaima is the one that most people want to get.
It's strictly catch and release.
So you catch a fish, get a photograph, and release it back in.
And it's all also caught on fly.
So there's not bait fishing for that.
So it tends to be quite specialized fishing.

(35:14):
So it's normally quite experienced fishermen who know how to handle the fish.
There plenty of other great species for sports fishing as well.
So even if you're just a casual fisherman,
You just want to go out for an afternoon.
There's a chance to catch some great sports fish out there.
know, pick up bass in particular.
You might catch a four or five pound fish, know, gives a good fight.

(35:34):
Okay.
So any of our groups, out there, here's a good, again, not large group or even someone whohas a client who likes fishing, lots of spots in South America.
Again, like again, have probably unknown and it's not a really good opportunity.
Let's look at some basic logistics for the travel partners out there.

(35:56):
As GoA deals primarily with Canadian and US travelers, do US or Canadians need a visa toGuyana?
No.
They're free to travel to Guyana.
Would that be the same if they want to add on Syrian Am and or French Guyana?
So French ground is part of France.
It'd be the same as you're traveling to France.
I believe you don't need anything at all.

(36:16):
Suriname does have a requirement.
It's not a visa.
It's basically like a tourist card.
You must apply for it online.
If that's any way you can get it.
So it's just a process online.
You pay a fee to enter, and that gets issued electronically.
So they do have a requirement.
And it's a bit of a pain to go through the process.

(36:37):
We actually offer a service where we can
do it on behalf of your clients if they wish because some people get frustrated with theawkward system they have in place.
Right.
What's the currency used in?
So, in Guyana, it's a Guyana dollar.
obviously, it fluctuates a little, but you're looking at roughly about 210 Guyana dollarsto the U.S.

(37:05):
Suriname, they use the Suriname dollar, and in French Guyana, of course, they use theeuro.
Now, you mentioned
Guiana is about 97 or 90 percent rainforest.
So from a travelers point of view, again, we're not doctors.
So as always, a disclaimer, anyone out there, please check with your local doctor ortravel clinic.
Does a traveler need to be aware of any shots or otherwise when they travel down toGuiana?

(37:31):
So the government asks you to have a yellow fever certificate if you're coming frominfected areas.
So if you come from a country that might have it.
requested.
of course, once you've had a yellow fever now it's valid for life.
wasn't before.
So if anyone's had it at any stage, as long as they have their certificate or if they goback to their doctor and even just a letter saying that they've had it at some point,

(37:53):
that's okay.
Though to be honest, I've never been asked at any stage coming to the airport for it.
We often get asked about malaria.
There is malaria in the country.
Generally happens more in logging and mining areas.
It's pretty rare for it to happen in tourist areas.
Not being a doctor, the only advice I give is talk to your medical doctor.

(38:17):
The trouble is once they look at their books, they'll see there's malaria in the countryand they'll be obliged to suggest you take precautions.
But that's more, I guess, for their own risk of not giving the right advice.
My suggestion is you wear long sleeves and long trousers at dawn and dusk.
The mosquitoes are only active around that time primarily.

(38:38):
All the beds are netted, so sleep under your net, cover up, on insert repellent.
And to be honest, most people will often comment how the mosquitoes are much worse back athome.
So it's not as bad as what people think.
What about safety in general down there?
Again, for most people, Guyana is a moan.

(38:59):
walking the street, I know this is probably walks around the coastline.
Georgetown is a safe city to wander around in independently.
Yeah, so during the daytime walking around downtown, you're generally pretty safe.
I think like any traveler, don't take something out on holidays that you don't want tolose.

(39:21):
Don't bring some significant personal item.
If you lose a camera, can always get it replaced.
There's certain areas like in any city that are less desirable.
Often they're hard to know where they are.
Certainly when customers arrive, we give them a briefing.
To be honest, if you're on a tour, you're going to have to buy your tour guides.
We don't get issues at all.
If you go out at night, if dinner's not included, you want to go to restaurant, take ataxi.

(39:44):
It'll cost like $2, $3 to get a taxi.
Don't walk the streets at night.
Once you go to the interior, mainly the lodges don't even have locks on the door.
mean, people are really friendly.
And in 30 odd years of business, I could count two or three cases where people have.
been robbed.
It's normally because they've left the group and gone wandering themselves.

(40:06):
And it's crimes of opportunity.
People aren't stalking tourists.
It's just, you know, happen to see someone with a big camera and they'll snatch it and runoff.
So, you know, generally, most of our tourists are very safe, well looked after and not anissue.
Yeah.
So I guess there's just a common sense advice to anyone traveling.
Yeah.

(40:27):
chance of getting ripped off here in Toronto or Paris.
So, safe all around, which is good to hear.
Now, I mentioned in the introduction, you also offer services in Suriname and FrenchGuiana.
Is it French Guiana which has all the rocket launches?
It is, yeah.
So, if you're a European, chances are that your telephone's working up a satellitelaunched out of French Guiana.

(40:53):
large, in the middle of the jungle there, this 25-kilometer square base.
So you can do a tour there.
So they run tours every day except Sunday.
They take you out by bus to various parts of the facility.
You see the control tower.
And if there's rockets on the pad, you might drive up close by them.

(41:13):
Sometimes they will close the space when there's a launch.
But then you actually get to see a launch.
It's advantage point.
So you can see a rocket being launched.
And they have a really excellent museum there as well.
So the French Garner is quite quirky.
space center in the middle of the jungle.
Then you've also got the story of puppy on which some of your older clients might know.

(41:38):
the great adventure book of 1969, then a movie in 72 with Steve McQueen and DustinHoffman.
And there was a remake in 2016 with Rami Malek.
So watching that really gives you an understanding of the prison colonies.
French Guiana was to the French, like Australia was to the British, that send all theprisoners offshore.

(42:02):
So many thousands of French came down and the worst of the prisoners were put on Devil'sIsland.
it's these, it's actually three islands make up what is sort of commonly known as Devil'sIsland.
some of the, well the prison was actually active until the 50s.
And so the rainforest is taken back over, but you can go and see the cells.
It's really fascinating to see it.

(42:23):
got the cemetery.
The only people buried in the cemetery were guards and their families.
No prisoners buried there.
When a prisoner died, they were wrapped up in a canvas sheet.
They rode the boat out.
They rang a bell that alerted the sharks, here comes another body and they tossed over theside.
So it's a pretty dark history.
In fact, if you were sentenced to go out to French guy and if your sentence was underseven years, you served your time.

(42:48):
You then had to serve an equivalent amount of time as a free man and French guy and itworked.
get your own passage back to France before you can return.
If you had a sentence over seven years, you served your time and then you were neverallowed to return to France.
You had to stay in French Guiana.
So it became a life sentence.
And not many returned because they were dying of malaria, yellow fever, just a brutalsystem.

(43:11):
after, if your sentence was over seven years and you served your time, you were free, butyou weren't allowed to return to France?
No, you had to stay in French Guiana.
Not many people have got that.
So it's a pretty brutal system.
to go and visit and understand that history, and most people have no idea about this.
So when you go to French Guyana, it's a fascinating story.

(43:35):
So there's very little infrastructure.
The population is very small.
There's nothing really to go to the interior for because there's no infrastructure.
So we tend not to do wildlife trips.
So we go there for these quirky things like going to a space center in the middle of thejungle.
going to Devil's Island.
And then on a Sunday, they have a hamang market.
during the Vietnam Wars, a bunch of hamang were brought out.

(43:57):
The army picked them up at the airport, dumped them in the forest.
Now they've built a whole township.
And on a Sunday, you're eating Southeast Asian food, sitting in South America, but you'repart of the European Union.
So doesn't get much more quirky than that.
Indeed.
Okay.
So French Garner, the highlights you just mentioned, if someone's looking at Suriname,what's the attractions?

(44:21):
So Paramovo itself is the UNESCO World Heritage Site, lovely old downtown area, allplantation owners houses along the riverbank there, a wonderfully preserved fort.
it, like Guyana, was very much built on sugar and plantation lifestyles.
The difference there is that so anyone escaped from plantations in Guyana, the Spanish inVenezuela said if you come here, you'll be a free man.

(44:47):
So there was rivers that ran through and escaped there.
French kind of they had nowhere to escape as they fled into the forest.
So they have these maroon communities.
So they're maroons that were slaves, escaped into the forest.
And the slave owners would buy slaves in different parts of Africa.
They didn't have a common language.
So when they fled together, they had to develop their own language.
So it's made up of various African words, Dutch words, and English words.

(45:12):
And if you went up the Suriname River, you have a different language to people who fled upthe Kambiwane River, for example.
So even within Suriname,
they've evolved differently.
But you get into these villages, it's very much a snapshot of how Africa would have beenthree or four hundred years ago in terms of the architecture, the customs, the dress.
So this is in South America, but you've got this like a time warp of Africa as it was along time ago.

(45:38):
So that's really quite fascinating to go and see that.
they have indigenous tribes like Guyana.
But if you're going to do both countries, I always suggest to
Indigenous culture and Kiana do maroon culture in Suriname because they are quitedifferent.
Then you have some good wildlife opportunities as well in Suriname.
You've got freshwater dolphins easily seen on the river just outside the capital city.

(46:06):
Four different species of sea turtles come into nests between February and August andthey're on the beaches not too far from the capital city.
lots of good things, particularly if you're doing it in combination with things that are
are contrasting.
So each of the three countries has things that are similar because they're all part ofwhat's known as the Ghana Shield.
So geographically very similar with forest, but then cultural differences and then inFrench Ghana with really one-off strange things that you can visit.

(46:36):
So why do you think, you've been there long enough to put an opinion on this, these threecountries and
with Guiana as a centerpiece.
They seem to have so much, albeit maybe a bit rusty compared to a lot of other countriesof advanced and advanced infrastructure.
But you mentioned the country, Guiana is known as the land of giants.

(46:58):
You've got French Guiana, has the quaking you brought up.
And then you have Syria now.
Why are these three countries, and Guiana in particular, not as well known or popular, doyou think, as the other Latin American or South American neighbors?
Probably just government's appetite for tourism.

(47:21):
after independence, Guyana wasn't particularly interested in tourism.
There's a background of slavery and providing hospitality and things were sort of seen as,we didn't want to be doing that serving the, I guess, the tourist company.
And that's all changed now.
And so the government's very much.

(47:43):
supportive and trying to develop the tourism industry.
Also, you know, we spoke earlier about the Air Link.
Without that Air Link, it doesn't encourage.
And we've seen, like with the British Airways coming in, tour operators that were neverinterested in Guyana with that Air Link, all of a sudden they're selling Guyana and
they're selling it very well.
So Air Link has a lot to do with it.
And these were small.

(48:05):
Guyana was the second poorest country in the hemisphere after Haiti until recently.
So the infrastructure is pretty weak.
Why would we come here when we could go to other countries?
Ghana doesn't have a Machu Picchu like Peru does.
It doesn't have a Galapagos like Ecuador.
It does have Qaitul, but people just don't know about it.

(48:27):
So there hasn't been a good job, I guess, in terms of marketing.
And we can look to Costa Rica to see how you take.
And Costa Rica has no one big spectacular thing like a Machu Picchu, but they doincredibly well because they've got their marketing so spot on.
that people think about rainforests, they think about Costa Rica, even though a bunch ofcountries around this region offer the same thing, but Costa Rica has done it so well.

(48:53):
And I think that's what hasn't happened in the Guyanas.
And there is some efforts to get the three countries to market collectively and sell itsort of as many of our customers, if they do come, they're wanting to do the three,
particularly for Europeans who have longer holidays.
The little heart of the North Americans tend to have shorter holidays.
But also, you know, it's close to see it's only four hours out of Miami and you're inGeorgetown.

(49:17):
So you could come down for a long weekend or a seven day break.
And then perhaps, you know, another year, come down and do Suriname.
So, okay.
So just, we're not actually that far away.
Sorry.
Just on that point, let me ask you this question then.
So the perfect itinerary for Guiana would be how many days?
Well, if you want to do it extensively, a 12 to 14 days, but if you've only got for theAmerican market, if you've got a Saturday or following Sunday, you're going to get a bit

(49:46):
of Georgetown, Kytoule Falls.
You want at least one rainforest lodge and one savanna lodge.
Getting savanna and rainforest, different ecosystems, different wildlife.
So we can create a nice itinerary.
You know, it's like anything else.
What's the perfect time to see Canada?
There's a lot to see.
We're not as big as that, course, but.

(50:07):
Anywhere I would say from 10 to 14 days you're going to get a good feel for the country.
And if you wanted to do all three, what would be a North American itinerary to get thethree in?
Not extensively because I think that would be pushing.
Yes, so that same 10 to 12 days you would not go as deep into the country of course.

(50:27):
You'd do some of the highlights and yeah so it is possible and you can for example youcould fly down.
American into Guyana and Air France has a flight multiple times a week via the FrenchCaribbean back to Miami so it is possible to leave to come in through one and leave
through the other albeit different airline partners.

(50:49):
Now I did forget to ask you before in the flow of the conversation what are the seasonsagain is there a good time bad time no time to be down there?
Yeah so our seasons are rainy season which happens May June July and then
dry season, the little rainy season around Christmas that doesn't really affect travel.
The big rainy season down the south, the rivers flood that tropical wetland I spoke aboutthe savannah said that's the breeding season for the fish and things like that.

(51:18):
So if you're interested in wildlife, the rainy season is less productive because thingsare spread out with the water.
So you want the water to come back into the rivers and everything and then congregatesaround the rivers.
But.
Equally, if you want to come and see the waterfalls at their highest, the rainy seasons tocome.
But like most places globally now, it's harder and harder to predict weather patterns.

(51:40):
The dry season could be wet and the wet season could be dry.
So it is a difficult thing to answer.
But you know, it's tropical.
It's always warm.
You're high temperature every day between 28 to 32 Celsius overnight down to 21 to 22degrees.
is it human?
For this time of year for the North Americans, if you want to escape the cold, it's goodto
down here.

(52:01):
Is it a humid destination being close to the equator?
Yeah, it's quite humid and particularly during the rainy season, it's more so.
So you've got to be prepared for some humidity.
So is there anything new on the horizon for Guyana?
Obviously with the oil money, things will be changing quickly.
But is there anything specific that's happening in the next year or two for the countryitself or for wilderness?

(52:26):
Yeah, from our perspective, we're hoping to get
There's an existing guest house at Kiteur Falls, which we've applied to get the contractto manage that.
So at the moment, that's been closed since around the COVID time.
It's been refurbished, not reopened.
So we're hoping to get that and turn that into a really nice product.

(52:47):
And that might lead on to something purpose-built in the future as well, if we can.
We've also got our eyes on a
the original lodge that I managed 30 years ago, has been closed for probably 10 or 12years and falling apart, potentially getting that and refurbishing that and bringing that
back to market.

(53:07):
That would be nice to come back.
We've got a few things on the drawing board.
As a destination, the government is very much about wanting to develop new products.
A number of times they've asked for
the requests for proposals for people to come in with ideas.
So they're very keen to see more development across the country.

(53:28):
So I think the next few years, particularly with more interests from outside coming in andyou've got, you know, hotel chains like Marriott's and Best Western coming in, I mean,
that's in the city, but we might also start to get companies interested in tourismdevelopment in the interior as well.
So I think the next few years are going to be potentially pretty exciting for us.

(53:51):
Yeah.
So I think it's now's the time to get down there before Yana.
Yeah.
Which it will not need to do.
I'm sure we'd like to, you know, advance B, know, improvement for structure.
But if you want that optimal travel now's the time, it'd be really cool for you to getback to the lodge you started with and take it over.
That'd be a nice closing of the circle, so to speak.

(54:13):
Yes.
Maybe in time for the mute to retire.
I'm going to wrap it up now.
Is there anything else you'd like?
to ask you about?

(54:47):
Yeah, for sure.
And obviously if you're into photography, get your zoom lenses ready and all that type ofstuff.
So on that note, I'd really like to thank Tony for his time.
It's good catching up with him.
We were just talking off camera.
We haven't seen each other for 10 or or odd years.
go ahead.
been working with wilderness explorers for that length of time, if not longer.

(55:09):
Unfortunately to date, we've not been sending people down there.
And I think for some of the reasons we discussed today, I also think
If you've listened in today, you will hear why you should be getting your travelers downthere or suggesting it to them.
It is old school travel in a positive way.
It is a crowd avoidance situation, which a lot of people are getting fed up with in otherdestinations around the world.

(55:31):
It's unique.
Tony and his company are very into supporting local communities, working with them, whichis something Go Away supports.
Of course, more of our partners that we have doing that.
better we feel about ourselves and we're also trying to expand our footprint in thatpositive space as well.

(55:53):
It's a great destination.
There's no excuse for not getting there anymore based on these comments earlier about theairlift.
It sounds like almost everywhere in North America and Europe, you can get there.
Open Jaw is an option.
Guiana is our focus today, but obviously French Guiana sounds really cool and funny, alsoat Suriname, have another

(56:13):
variation of cultural experiences as well as other wildlife offerings.
So again, Hukti Giana, it's nearby, four hours from Miami, long weekend even as Tonymentioned.
It's all global, it's all accessible.
GoAE can assist you through Tony with any customized itineraries, group itineraries, bemindful of the size of lodges, et cetera.

(56:36):
Tony mentioned before, specialist tourism, photography, herding, fishing as well.
It's all there in a small country, in small region, in the Northeast of South America.
So Tony, thank you very much for your time, buddy.
Really appreciate it.
My pleasure.
And we'll talk to everyone soon.