May 1, 2024 • 30 mins
Trying to find an exact diagnosis for your hair loss can be overwhelming and confusing.
In this episode of the Hair Loss in Women podcast Bambi will give you an overview of some of the most common types of female hair loss.
You’ll also hear from Penny, who first noticed she had hair loss at 11 years of age. Penny talks about how hard it is to have hair loss as a child and young person and how she has learnt to accept her hair loss as she grew older.
In this episode you’ll learn:
- How hair loss can impact on young girls
- Why many women learn to live with hair loss as they grow older
- The most common types of female hair loss
FIND OUT MORE: In this episode we mention previous Hair Loss in Women podcast episodes. Follow the link to listen to the episodes on stress and illness.
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DISCLAIMER:
While Bambi is a former registered nurse with extensive knowledge on hair loss in women, she is not a medical doctor.
All information shared in this podcast is of a general nature.
Please see your GP or other medical professional for specific advice related to your circumstances.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hello ladies, are you struggling with hairloss?
I want you to know you're not
alone. Hi, I'm Bambi Staveley, formerregistered nurse, author, founder of Boost
n Blend and someone who probably just likeyou has had first -hand experience with
hair loss, which is all covered in mylatest book, Hair Loss
(00:21):
in Women. When I noticed my own hairthinning
I went looking for information and I wentlooking for products for women, just like
you and me.
But all I could find out there wasproducts made for men.
And most of the information I could findwas about male pattern baldness.
Well, that's not much help.
(00:41):
So I set out to change that.
I want to see women with hair loss talkingabout it and talking to each other,
sharing their stories from a place ofknowledge.
So join me.
as I meet some courageous women.
I'll share some information and we'lllearn together on the Hair Loss in Women
(01:02):
podcast.
Hello and welcome back to the Hair Loss inWomen podcast.
This is a space where you can hear storiesof women who have experienced hair loss
(01:23):
and perhaps even find something that helpsyour hair loss or helps you to live with
hair loss.
Today I'm going to run you through themany different types of female hair loss.
But first up, I want you to hear thisconversation I had with Penny who
discovered she was losing her hair at just11 years of age.
(01:48):
Hi Penny, it's great to talk to you today.
Great to talk to you too.
thank you.
So let's start at the beginning.
And for you, when we're talking about hairloss, you were quite young, weren't you?
I was 11 when it started.
Wow, that's very young, isn't it?
(02:08):
Yeah.
And so does hair loss run in your family?
No.
Well, at least not in the immediatefamily, although my mother,
you know, when it happened to me said thatthere was somebody on her side of the
family who had a similar thing going on.
Yeah, that's the only member.
Okay.
Female you're talking about, I'm assuming?
(02:30):
Female, but yeah, there's plenty ofbaldies in the males, but yeah, only
female.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what was the first sign?
Do you remember?
Yeah, I do remember.
I remember it vividly because I wasactually sat at my mother's feet and she
was either drying my hair or brushing myhair.
and she was sat on the sofa with one of mysisters and what my sister said to my
(02:51):
mother, our penny's going bald, look.
I mean, it didn't even mean anything to methen.
I was 11 years old, didn't even know whatit meant.
And so my sisters took me to the mirrorand held another mirror above the back of
my head and I saw what they meant.
And it went from there.
I've been lucky in the sense that, youknow, the hair loss, although it's gone on
(03:12):
and on and on and I've taken various stepsto try to mitigate it.
I know some people with alopeciaandrogenetica, which is a self -diagnosis,
they continue to lose nearly all of theirhair and I haven't.
That's been a blessing.
Yeah, okay.
So from 11, I explained there was a baldpatch or a thinning patch on the crown of
(03:37):
your head at the back?
Yeah, sort of right round the back there.
Yeah, okay, so the crown.
And then from there, so you were 11, sowhat happened next?
I mean, that's one of the, I mean, I wasreflecting on this actually the other day
because I knew I was going to come andtalk to you and I just, nobody really knew
what to do or how to cope with it.
(03:59):
So my mother was very worried and she tookme to the doctor, the chief, the general
practitioner, and he didn't have a clue.
And he just said to my mother that maybeshe should rub some surgical spirit.
on the thinning area because that mighthelp.
And then it didn't.
And I think he must have given her somekind of steroid cream or something because
(04:19):
that went on for a little, this is allwhen I was 11, 12, and all that did was
made my hair incredibly greasy and showedup the thinning patch even worse.
And so I was at school being torturedabout it by people.
No, but not as many as you might thinkthat was the thing because that was the
thing is that I developed a lot ofstrategies to hide it like never sitting
(04:42):
with my back to anybody, never allowinganybody to stand up and you know, I just
developed these ways of coping and beingthat avoided it.
But my other coping strategy was not totalk about it.
Because if I talked about it, it made itreal.
Yeah.
And I couldn't see it because it was theback of my head.
So I could live not really like not.
(05:03):
thinking about it for huge sections oftime.
And then something would happen, whichinvariably did, somebody would say
something and I was thrown back into it.
So I was reflecting the other day aboutthe fact it's been a horrible thing in my
life.
It just really upsets me because I lookback and I just think it ruined my life
(05:25):
really.
I'm sorry.
And when you were 11, did you have longhair or short hair?
Long.
Long?
Yeah, sort of short, yeah.
And were you able to cover up the spotwith putting it in a ponytail?
Yeah, I covered it up as best I could withdifferent hairstyles, yeah.
I mean, so one of the things I did when Iwas 14 or 15 was I got my hair cut really
(05:50):
short.
For that, you know, I mean, it's not asshort as it is now, but it was like for
that, for the time, it was very, veryshort.
Right.
That really helped.
And it helped, yeah.
I guess, because you can move with shorthair, you can move your hair around quite
a bit and sort of cover up an area.
And then with long hair for a young girl,I guess you can put it up in a ponytail
(06:11):
and you could put it in a ponytail.
That's what my mum kept saying becauseshe'd had some hair loss during her
pregnancies, but it always came back andshe was saying, well, if you grew it, you
could wear a bun.
That's what I used to do.
I mean, she did try to help me, but youknow, on the other hand,
You know, I always think, but I wouldn'ttalk about it.
So there was a limit to what anyone coulddo.
(06:31):
And because I didn't talk about it, therewas a lot of assumptions got made in the
family and by friends that I didn't mind,which, you know, really annoys me still
because you just think I was 14, 11, 12,13, 14, teenager.
Why wouldn't I have minded?
Yeah.
I mean, what a silly thing to think.
Yeah, of course.
(06:52):
And I think when you're a young person,you're...
kind of have a much more heightenedawareness of your appearance and you know
you've got friends you might compareyourself to friends and so I'm assuming
then that you didn't really talk aboutthis with friends at school or?
(07:14):
No, I didn't start talking about it untilyou know to other people until I was in my
30s and I was doing some research about itall and I discovered this
endocrinologist down in London who dealtwith women's hair loss.
And I went to see him and he put me onanti -androgen therapy and I did start to
(07:34):
notice a little bit of a difference andthat was the first time I started talking
about it to anybody.
okay.
Cause androgenic alopecia is generallycaused by an overproduction of androgens
and you know, of course the androgens arethe male hormones, but we women make them
too.
And,
(07:55):
And there is quite a lot of research doneon androgenic or androgenetic, same thing,
alopecia in women.
And it does typically seem to happen postpuberty, interestingly enough.
So it sort of correlates with yourdescription to some extent.
(08:16):
And when I went to this endocrinologist,you did a full range of blood tests.
And one of the things was that there wasnothing in my blood that would indicate.
that there was any problem, you know,because this guy said it can often
accompany polycystic ovaries andeverything.
So I had a full range of blood tests doneand it didn't show anything.
And he said, well, you've just developedprobably genetically and androgen
(08:38):
sensitivity, you know, if your dad's bald,if your brother's bald, which they were.
He said, you've been unlucky and you'veinherited it.
Well, that's, that's very possible.
And he could well be right.
I know from, from a lot of the readingthat I've done that,
androgenic alopecia is not very common inwomen because it's mainly common in men.
(09:01):
I mean, it's basically the reason for malepattern hair loss.
It's uncommon in women.
It's not to say it doesn't happen.
It certainly does.
But as you say, in your 30s, you triedsome anti -androgen medications to reduce
the amount of androgens that you werefloating around.
And some of the studies that I've read onthat particular
(09:23):
type of therapy is that it often doesn'twork in women and the reason it doesn't
work in women is because that isn't thecause of the hair loss, interestingly
enough.
So we probably won't ever know what yourcause was.
I mean, possibly it could have been theandrogens, but if the anti -androgen
therapy didn't actually do a hell of alot, then it's likely that that may not
(09:47):
have been it.
And you may never know.
as many of us don't, I mean, femalepattern hair loss is such a difficult
topic, a difficult issue to deal with,mainly because there are so many triggers
and so many underlying causes and so manyfactors that can be involved all at the
(10:08):
same time, which makes it really hard toresolve.
So I guess as you went through from yourthirties then, what were you doing at that
time?
to hide it or was it anything that youwere doing particularly that you recall?
Always just kept my hair very short, keptit, you know, and also because I got more
(10:31):
confident in myself, you know, as I gotolder, I just wouldn't, you know, if
people said anything to me, I would, youknow, I didn't sort of let them upset me,
it did upset me, but I didn't say anythingabout it.
I mean, whereas now in my sixties, ifanybody said anything to me, I'd just say,
(10:54):
why don't you take a look at the Murugaior girl?
You know what?
We've all got flaws.
I wouldn't allow people to, that's one ofthe things that upsets me is how I used to
allow people to talk to me.
Right.
That really gets to me because I justthink, why did you let people speak to you
like that?
Well, I mean, you can't beat yourself upover that, I guess, because as a young
(11:17):
person and as somebody who,
was trying to get through life withsomething that you didn't understand and
you didn't understand the reason for iteither.
And I guess there wasn't a lot of supportfor you or there wasn't any really
support.
And that's the thing that struck me when Ifirst went through hair loss now 15 years
ago was the fact that there isn't anysupport.
(11:39):
There wasn't anyone to talk to.
There wasn't anyone who seemed tounderstand female hair loss.
I mean,
I mentioned it to a doctor who said, Idon't know what you're talking about.
You've got plenty of hair.
But what he wasn't realizing was that Ididn't have the hair I used to have.
And I had a lot of spaces and gaps, whichhe just being a balding male, he didn't
(12:00):
see or didn't want to see.
So I think, you know, it's really hard forus when we're going through something that
really deeply affects us, but the peoplearound us don't understand it.
And there's sort of nowhere to turn.
It is hard, isn't it?
Yeah.
So how do you think that your hair lossimpacted some of the choices that you made
(12:21):
in your life, maybe work wise or socially?
Never really had an impact work wise, butit was when I look back and I can still be
tipped into that kind of feeling now, evennow.
I just always felt less, less of a woman,less of a person, that I wasn't good
(12:44):
enough for anything.
It affected all my relationships.
I had no confidence really to have arelationship with a fellow, which is what
I wanted.
And, you know, so I stayed single for manyyears.
I was single up until 10 years ago.
And that was, I would attribute that tothat situation.
(13:07):
And then what changed 10 years ago?
Confidence, being less tolerant of
you know, being horrible to me about it,being, you know, just staying away from
people who were, you know, a friend ofmine told me about a phrase about people
in your life that they're either drains orfountains and stay away from the drains.
(13:30):
And I did.
So there were the things that made thedifference.
And, you know, and then I, you know, Ijust, at the end of the day, because of, I
am a psychologist by profession.
So I've always had a lot of tools.
And, you know, I just gradually started tobelieve the things that told myself for
years, which is it's one part of you.
(13:51):
It's not all of who you are.
There are lots of things about you thataren't your hair loss and you mustn't,
that isn't, doesn't define who you are.
It's part of who you are and you have tolive with it, but it doesn't define who
you are.
And once I moved to that different space,my life's been, I mean, I got married
three years ago and you know, things have,you know, things have been.
(14:13):
very different for me since then.
Yeah, wow.
But it's been the blight of my life,there's no doubt about that.
And I'm not exaggerating to say that, ithas been.
Right, right.
And I think what you just said then aboutit doesn't define us, it doesn't need to
define us.
We need to say that more.
And we need to say that to younger womenwho perhaps like you at one point did
(14:38):
think that it defined you and of course itdoesn't.
We need to get that
particular message out there, don't we?
Because we need to help particularlyyounger women who are experiencing hair
loss in a severe way, totally unexpected,that it isn't who you are.
(14:58):
Who we are is the people that we are.
And I always say that it's important thatwe smile to people.
I know it sounds really naff maybe, but...
I just think that smiling and smiling atsomebody else and getting a smile back is
just such a wonderful feeling and you makesomebody else feel great, it actually
(15:21):
makes you feel great.
I try to keep things like that at the topof my mind when I'm having days where I'm
not feeling that great about myself.
It's true.
Yeah.
So it's wonderful to see and hear aboutwomen.
getting confidence as we get older becausethat's exactly what happened to me as
well.
(15:42):
The older I get, the more confident Ibecame in myself.
And we hear a lot of women talking abouthair loss and we've so far heard quite a
lot of really interesting stories andreally different stories.
But what do you think it is, andparticularly being a psychologist, you
might have a different, interesting viewon this, but what do you think it is about
(16:05):
women growing older?
That means that we do find thatconfidence.
Well, I think part of it is because, youknow, as you know, in the culture that we
live in, it's only younger women areactually valued generally.
You know, older women are not valued.
There's no doubt about it.
I see it at work all the time where someof my male colleagues look at me and you
can see their confusion like, what are youand why are you here?
(16:29):
Because you're not decorative and youdon't seem to serve a function.
So I just want you to be airbrushed out.
And unfortunately,
I think that's, you know, that's whathappens.
And paradoxically, what comes with thatinvisibility is liberation, because you
just think, you know what, who cares?
You know, who cares what I look likeanyway, because that, it clearly doesn't
(16:52):
define who I am, because I've had to findother ways of feeling positive about
myself, other than getting some attentionfrom men or whatever.
And that, I think that's a big thing withit.
And I think just the other thing I'veobserved, I haven't got kids.
but my sisters have got children and allmy best friends have got children.
And I think what they would say is havingchildren makes you just not care about
(17:16):
what other people think because the onlything that matters is your kids.
And I think that's probably true as wellfor women.
Yeah, yeah, that's an interestingperspective on it actually.
So how are you feeling about your hairnow?
Well, I mean, you know, I know Bambi,you're the owner of
boost and blend but that today Idiscovered that transformed my life
(17:39):
completely.
Right.
I wouldn't I would no more go out withoutmy hair fibers in than I would go out
naked honestly.
And it's I mean, I've only been using it ayear.
And every time I put them on, and I lookin the bathroom mirror go, my god, I just
can't believe the difference.
Every single time.
You know, three little shakes now I've gotgoing and I usually do it twice and you
(18:03):
just can't see and it's just
absolutely incredible.
And I just my biggest sorrow is that Ididn't know about them earlier and that
they weren't around when I was young.
That's my big sorrow.
Yeah.
It's a fantastic product.
I mean, you know, and I'm not saying thatbecause I'm being interviewed about it.
I do.
I mean, I tell my hairdresser, you know,she just every time she cuts my hair, she
(18:26):
just goes, wow.
And I've given her all the, you know, theinformation to pass on to her clients.
But yeah.
That's what's changed for me as well.
that's great.
Well, I also wouldn't go out the doorwithout mining any more than I would go
out naked.
I can tell you that for me, that is howimportant it is to me.
(18:48):
Yeah, me too.
Absolutely.
Just wouldn't be without it.
It takes two seconds to transform.
You don't have to go out worrying aboutwho stood behind you.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was talking to a young girl oncewho told me who had a hair loss at the
back of her head and she told me she was28 and she said to me that she always
(19:10):
stood with her back to a wall.
And yeah, same as me.
Yeah.
And I just, well, I introduced her toBoost and Blend and that was the end of
standing with her back to the wall.
But it's just, it really is, it plays onour mind and we all obviously feel that
way.
So is there anything that you'd like?
other women who might be going throughsomething similar to know.
(19:32):
I think not necessarily about Boost andBlend, but about just about hair loss in
general.
I think the big thing is remembering thatit doesn't define who you are.
And the other big thing is, you know, ifpeople can't be sensitive about it and,
you know, and be kind, avoid them, don'tgo near them, don't entertain them.
(19:52):
You don't want people like that in yourlife.
That's what I would say.
Just, you just don't.
I mean, when I look back at some of thethings that got said to me as a young
woman and people that were supposedfriends, I sometimes have little, you
know, when I wake up at night, which isthe older woman's, you know, bug is a bear
that you wake up in the middle of thenight, don't you?
And I remember some of the things that gotsaid and what I would say now if it got
(20:16):
said to me.
And my view is just have zero tolerance topeople who don't understand.
You just, you don't entertain them.
You don't want people like that in yourlife.
No, I couldn't agree more.
The people who love you and the people whoare worth being with are the people who
show sensitivity to you and care aboutyou.
(20:36):
Yeah, very good advice.
I concur 100%.
And it's not easy to do sometimes,particularly when those people are part of
your family.
But I think we've all experienced familydifficulties as we've got older and the
same thing applies.
You decide on the boundaries.
and you stick to your own boundaries.
(20:56):
And I think that's, you know, that'sreally good advice.
Well, thank you, Penny.
No, it's been lovely to talk to you.
thank you.
Look, I just, I just really appreciateyour candidness and your willingness to be
so candid and to share with us how youfelt and how you feel, because it really
(21:17):
does help other women to know that they'renot alone and that the feelings that they
have or the worries or the concerns.
are shared by other women out here and weshare this all together.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for your time today.
No, you're welcome.
For many women as we know, hair loss comesa lot later in life when we're an adult.
(21:39):
So I thought it was really important tohear from Penny who grew up with hair
loss.
Okay, time now for our Did You Know?
And this week I'm going to give you arundown of the different types of female
hair loss.
(21:59):
Have you had a formal diagnosis for yourhair loss yet?
Do you know a lot about one type of hairloss?
Well, if not, maybe you've seen all thenames of all the different types and
you're a bit confused.
Well, that's what today's Did You Know isall about, different types of hair loss.
Basically, I think hair loss can becategorized into two separate types.
(22:26):
The first one is shedding, which is thefast and furious, obvious, sudden type of
hair loss that we see in TE or telogeneffluvium.
And then the second type is a more gradualhair loss, which happens very gradually
over time.
So gradual hair loss can often beassociated with age, but it can also be
(22:51):
quite alarming if gradual hair loss seemsto be happening to someone who's much
younger.
And this can of course be due to so manyfactors of as we've sort of talked about
before, for example, age, genetics,hormones, a vitamin or a mineral
(23:12):
deficiency of some kind.
And some of these can be caused by otherconditions like perhaps celiac disease or
autoimmune conditions and of course thebig one, stress.
So,
Let's take a very quick and generalizedlook at these types of hair loss.
So of course, if any of this feels like itrings true for you, please talk to your
(23:37):
doctor.
Get some specific advice for your ownsituation.
To start with the word alopecia.
Alopecia is the medical term for hair lossand it covers all types of hair loss.
So it's when you start combining
alopecia with other words that you startto see a more individual diagnosis.
(24:01):
For example, alopecia areata.
Now that's an autoimmune condition andthat appears or can appear as patchy hair
loss.
So if you've read my book or you mighthave heard in another episode of this
podcast, the first sign of hair loss forme was a small circular patch.
(24:23):
that my hairdresser found, which was quiteshocking and devastating for me at the
time.
So when we're talking about the patchyhair loss of alopecia areata, like in my
case, what it looks like is a very well-defined patch, usually a circular patch.
Now there is another type of alopeciacalled alopecia totalis and that's
(24:47):
complete baldness, so of the scalp.
Or
There is another type which is total hairloss all over the body and that's known as
alopecia universalis.
The names kind of do make sense don't theywhen you know what they are.
But for today's purposes I thought I'dmove on to a slightly longer discussion
(25:08):
about androgenic alopecia or also calledandrogenetic alopecia, same thing.
Now that is the most common form of hairloss in men.
and it's caused by an excessive responseto androgens, when the androgens are the
male hormones, which both men and womenhave, but men have a lot more of.
(25:30):
This type of hair loss is actually rare inwomen.
It can happen, but sometimes when womenare diagnosed with androgenic alopecia,
they might mean female pattern hair loss,which I'll go into in just a moment.
Androgenic alopecia tends to be
seen in men doesn't tend to be seen inwomen.
(25:51):
I just want to get that point.
There is treatment available forandrogenic alopecia and it usually
involves some kind of anti -androgentherapy.
If you've done a little reading, you wouldhave heard of perhaps spirulactone or as
we tend to call it, spiro or spiro.
Women use that and it works by reducingthe androgen receptor.
(26:17):
But
It has to be prescribed so it's notsomething you can go and get across the
counter.
But that brings me to female hair loss,which I think is often incorrectly called
androgenetic alopecia.
And I read a lot about this and I haveread a lot about this over the years.
And it would seem that scientists too areincreasingly questioning this term
(26:42):
androgenic alopecia when used for women.
I think the words
really have been used because it's whatmale pattern baldness is called.
And so this sort of term female androgenicalopecia seem to become more mainstream
and used more and more.
But the studies that I've read show thatthe reasons for female pattern hair loss
(27:05):
differs really massively from male patternhair loss and it doesn't actually involve
androgens at all, which is why the termfemale
pattern hair loss is in most cases a muchmore accurate and helpful term.
So this is only a very quick overview.
There is so much in this.
(27:26):
There really is so much in this.
Okay, so those are the main types ofgradual hair loss, but let's talk about
sudden hair loss.
So telogen effluvium or TE is the suddenshedding.
So that often happens a few months after atrigger of sorts, usually something
has happened to your body, maybe somethingemotional, physical, stressful.
(27:50):
You can listen to other episodes onillness and stress to find out more about
TE.
I'll link to those in the show notes.
Then there's frontal fibrosing alopecia,which is the hair loss that occurs around
the hairline, mostly at the front.
It can also affect the eyebrows andeyelashes.
It's known as a scarring type of hairloss.
(28:13):
And there can be a genetic factor as well,or it can be hormone, autoimmune,
inflammatory, environmental.
It is quite rare and it tends to occur inpost -menopausal women, but not always.
I just mentioned it's a scarring type ofhair loss.
So what does that mean?
You probably heard that term used.
(28:34):
So it's the type of hair loss where thefollicle is completely destroyed.
No amount of topical treatments orreversing the underlying causes will fix
scarring hair loss.
Okay, so that's been a very quick recap.
I hope it's given you a bit of an idea ofeach type of hair loss.
There are more types of hair loss.
These are just the most common ones.
(28:54):
And there are other episodes where I lookat certain types of hair loss more closely
and I'll link to those in the show notestoo.
So in the interest of time, I haven't beenable to tell you everything, but it is all
covered in much more detail in my book.
So that brings us to the end of anotherepisode of the Hair Loss in Women podcast.
(29:14):
As with all these episodes, theinformation shared is really of a general
nature.
If you want health advice specific to you,please make an appointment with your GP or
your health professional.
I hope you've enjoyed this.
Don't forget to subscribe or follow thepodcast so you know when a new episode is
(29:35):
out.
And as always,
Let me leave you with these words I liketo live by.
Kindness is beautiful, so wear it everyday.
Thanks for joining me on the Hair Loss inWomen podcast.
And a big thank you to the women who sharetheir stories here and with others in
(29:57):
their community.
One of the hardest things about hair lossfor women is that we don't talk about it.
So if you do want to hear more, pleasesubscribe to the podcast.
And if you like what you heard, why notleave a review?
Positive reviews will help other women tofind this podcast too.
You can also find out more in my book.
(30:17):
care loss in women.
This podcast has been recorded in Sydney,Australia and is produced by Pod and Pen
Productions.
Hello ladies, are you struggling with hairloss?
I want you to know you're not
alone. Hi, I'm Bambi Staveley, formerregistered nurse, author, founder of Boost
n Blend and someone who probably just likeyou has had first -hand experience with
hair loss, which is all covered in mylatest book, Hair Loss
(00:21):
in Women. When I noticed my own hairthinning
I went looking for information and I wentlooking for products for women, just like
you and me.
But all I could find out there wasproducts made for men.
And most of the information I could findwas about male pattern baldness.
Well, that's not much help.
(00:41):
So I set out to change that.
I want to see women with hair loss talkingabout it and talking to each other,
sharing their stories from a place ofknowledge.
So join me.
as I meet some courageous women.
I'll share some information and we'lllearn together on the Hair Loss in Women
(01:02):
podcast.
Hello and welcome back to the Hair Loss inWomen podcast.
This is a space where you can hear storiesof women who have experienced hair loss
(01:23):
and perhaps even find something that helpsyour hair loss or helps you to live with
hair loss.
Today I'm going to run you through themany different types of female hair loss.
But first up, I want you to hear thisconversation I had with Penny who
discovered she was losing her hair at just11 years of age.
(01:48):
Hi Penny, it's great to talk to you today.
Great to talk to you too.
thank you.
So let's start at the beginning.
And for you, when we're talking about hairloss, you were quite young, weren't you?
I was 11 when it started.
Wow, that's very young, isn't it?
(02:08):
Yeah.
And so does hair loss run in your family?
No.
Well, at least not in the immediatefamily, although my mother,
you know, when it happened to me said thatthere was somebody on her side of the
family who had a similar thing going on.
Yeah, that's the only member.
Okay.
Female you're talking about, I'm assuming?
(02:30):
Female, but yeah, there's plenty ofbaldies in the males, but yeah, only
female.
Yeah.
Okay.
So what was the first sign?
Do you remember?
Yeah, I do remember.
I remember it vividly because I wasactually sat at my mother's feet and she
was either drying my hair or brushing myhair.
and she was sat on the sofa with one of mysisters and what my sister said to my
(02:51):
mother, our penny's going bald, look.
I mean, it didn't even mean anything to methen.
I was 11 years old, didn't even know whatit meant.
And so my sisters took me to the mirrorand held another mirror above the back of
my head and I saw what they meant.
And it went from there.
I've been lucky in the sense that, youknow, the hair loss, although it's gone on
(03:12):
and on and on and I've taken various stepsto try to mitigate it.
I know some people with alopeciaandrogenetica, which is a self -diagnosis,
they continue to lose nearly all of theirhair and I haven't.
That's been a blessing.
Yeah, okay.
So from 11, I explained there was a baldpatch or a thinning patch on the crown of
(03:37):
your head at the back?
Yeah, sort of right round the back there.
Yeah, okay, so the crown.
And then from there, so you were 11, sowhat happened next?
I mean, that's one of the, I mean, I wasreflecting on this actually the other day
because I knew I was going to come andtalk to you and I just, nobody really knew
what to do or how to cope with it.
(03:59):
So my mother was very worried and she tookme to the doctor, the chief, the general
practitioner, and he didn't have a clue.
And he just said to my mother that maybeshe should rub some surgical spirit.
on the thinning area because that mighthelp.
And then it didn't.
And I think he must have given her somekind of steroid cream or something because
(04:19):
that went on for a little, this is allwhen I was 11, 12, and all that did was
made my hair incredibly greasy and showedup the thinning patch even worse.
And so I was at school being torturedabout it by people.
No, but not as many as you might thinkthat was the thing because that was the
thing is that I developed a lot ofstrategies to hide it like never sitting
(04:42):
with my back to anybody, never allowinganybody to stand up and you know, I just
developed these ways of coping and beingthat avoided it.
But my other coping strategy was not totalk about it.
Because if I talked about it, it made itreal.
Yeah.
And I couldn't see it because it was theback of my head.
So I could live not really like not.
(05:03):
thinking about it for huge sections oftime.
And then something would happen, whichinvariably did, somebody would say
something and I was thrown back into it.
So I was reflecting the other day aboutthe fact it's been a horrible thing in my
life.
It just really upsets me because I lookback and I just think it ruined my life
(05:25):
really.
I'm sorry.
And when you were 11, did you have longhair or short hair?
Long.
Long?
Yeah, sort of short, yeah.
And were you able to cover up the spotwith putting it in a ponytail?
Yeah, I covered it up as best I could withdifferent hairstyles, yeah.
I mean, so one of the things I did when Iwas 14 or 15 was I got my hair cut really
(05:50):
short.
For that, you know, I mean, it's not asshort as it is now, but it was like for
that, for the time, it was very, veryshort.
Right.
That really helped.
And it helped, yeah.
I guess, because you can move with shorthair, you can move your hair around quite
a bit and sort of cover up an area.
And then with long hair for a young girl,I guess you can put it up in a ponytail
(06:11):
and you could put it in a ponytail.
That's what my mum kept saying becauseshe'd had some hair loss during her
pregnancies, but it always came back andshe was saying, well, if you grew it, you
could wear a bun.
That's what I used to do.
I mean, she did try to help me, but youknow, on the other hand,
You know, I always think, but I wouldn'ttalk about it.
So there was a limit to what anyone coulddo.
(06:31):
And because I didn't talk about it, therewas a lot of assumptions got made in the
family and by friends that I didn't mind,which, you know, really annoys me still
because you just think I was 14, 11, 12,13, 14, teenager.
Why wouldn't I have minded?
Yeah.
I mean, what a silly thing to think.
Yeah, of course.
(06:52):
And I think when you're a young person,you're...
kind of have a much more heightenedawareness of your appearance and you know
you've got friends you might compareyourself to friends and so I'm assuming
then that you didn't really talk aboutthis with friends at school or?
(07:14):
No, I didn't start talking about it untilyou know to other people until I was in my
30s and I was doing some research about itall and I discovered this
endocrinologist down in London who dealtwith women's hair loss.
And I went to see him and he put me onanti -androgen therapy and I did start to
(07:34):
notice a little bit of a difference andthat was the first time I started talking
about it to anybody.
okay.
Cause androgenic alopecia is generallycaused by an overproduction of androgens
and you know, of course the androgens arethe male hormones, but we women make them
too.
And,
(07:55):
And there is quite a lot of research doneon androgenic or androgenetic, same thing,
alopecia in women.
And it does typically seem to happen postpuberty, interestingly enough.
So it sort of correlates with yourdescription to some extent.
(08:16):
And when I went to this endocrinologist,you did a full range of blood tests.
And one of the things was that there wasnothing in my blood that would indicate.
that there was any problem, you know,because this guy said it can often
accompany polycystic ovaries andeverything.
So I had a full range of blood tests doneand it didn't show anything.
And he said, well, you've just developedprobably genetically and androgen
(08:38):
sensitivity, you know, if your dad's bald,if your brother's bald, which they were.
He said, you've been unlucky and you'veinherited it.
Well, that's, that's very possible.
And he could well be right.
I know from, from a lot of the readingthat I've done that,
androgenic alopecia is not very common inwomen because it's mainly common in men.
(09:01):
I mean, it's basically the reason for malepattern hair loss.
It's uncommon in women.
It's not to say it doesn't happen.
It certainly does.
But as you say, in your 30s, you triedsome anti -androgen medications to reduce
the amount of androgens that you werefloating around.
And some of the studies that I've read onthat particular
(09:23):
type of therapy is that it often doesn'twork in women and the reason it doesn't
work in women is because that isn't thecause of the hair loss, interestingly
enough.
So we probably won't ever know what yourcause was.
I mean, possibly it could have been theandrogens, but if the anti -androgen
therapy didn't actually do a hell of alot, then it's likely that that may not
(09:47):
have been it.
And you may never know.
as many of us don't, I mean, femalepattern hair loss is such a difficult
topic, a difficult issue to deal with,mainly because there are so many triggers
and so many underlying causes and so manyfactors that can be involved all at the
(10:08):
same time, which makes it really hard toresolve.
So I guess as you went through from yourthirties then, what were you doing at that
time?
to hide it or was it anything that youwere doing particularly that you recall?
Always just kept my hair very short, keptit, you know, and also because I got more
(10:31):
confident in myself, you know, as I gotolder, I just wouldn't, you know, if
people said anything to me, I would, youknow, I didn't sort of let them upset me,
it did upset me, but I didn't say anythingabout it.
I mean, whereas now in my sixties, ifanybody said anything to me, I'd just say,
(10:54):
why don't you take a look at the Murugaior girl?
You know what?
We've all got flaws.
I wouldn't allow people to, that's one ofthe things that upsets me is how I used to
allow people to talk to me.
Right.
That really gets to me because I justthink, why did you let people speak to you
like that?
Well, I mean, you can't beat yourself upover that, I guess, because as a young
(11:17):
person and as somebody who,
was trying to get through life withsomething that you didn't understand and
you didn't understand the reason for iteither.
And I guess there wasn't a lot of supportfor you or there wasn't any really
support.
And that's the thing that struck me when Ifirst went through hair loss now 15 years
ago was the fact that there isn't anysupport.
(11:39):
There wasn't anyone to talk to.
There wasn't anyone who seemed tounderstand female hair loss.
I mean,
I mentioned it to a doctor who said, Idon't know what you're talking about.
You've got plenty of hair.
But what he wasn't realizing was that Ididn't have the hair I used to have.
And I had a lot of spaces and gaps, whichhe just being a balding male, he didn't
(12:00):
see or didn't want to see.
So I think, you know, it's really hard forus when we're going through something that
really deeply affects us, but the peoplearound us don't understand it.
And there's sort of nowhere to turn.
It is hard, isn't it?
Yeah.
So how do you think that your hair lossimpacted some of the choices that you made
(12:21):
in your life, maybe work wise or socially?
Never really had an impact work wise, butit was when I look back and I can still be
tipped into that kind of feeling now, evennow.
I just always felt less, less of a woman,less of a person, that I wasn't good
(12:44):
enough for anything.
It affected all my relationships.
I had no confidence really to have arelationship with a fellow, which is what
I wanted.
And, you know, so I stayed single for manyyears.
I was single up until 10 years ago.
And that was, I would attribute that tothat situation.
(13:07):
And then what changed 10 years ago?
Confidence, being less tolerant of
you know, being horrible to me about it,being, you know, just staying away from
people who were, you know, a friend ofmine told me about a phrase about people
in your life that they're either drains orfountains and stay away from the drains.
(13:30):
And I did.
So there were the things that made thedifference.
And, you know, and then I, you know, Ijust, at the end of the day, because of, I
am a psychologist by profession.
So I've always had a lot of tools.
And, you know, I just gradually started tobelieve the things that told myself for
years, which is it's one part of you.
(13:51):
It's not all of who you are.
There are lots of things about you thataren't your hair loss and you mustn't,
that isn't, doesn't define who you are.
It's part of who you are and you have tolive with it, but it doesn't define who
you are.
And once I moved to that different space,my life's been, I mean, I got married
three years ago and you know, things have,you know, things have been.
(14:13):
very different for me since then.
Yeah, wow.
But it's been the blight of my life,there's no doubt about that.
And I'm not exaggerating to say that, ithas been.
Right, right.
And I think what you just said then aboutit doesn't define us, it doesn't need to
define us.
We need to say that more.
And we need to say that to younger womenwho perhaps like you at one point did
(14:38):
think that it defined you and of course itdoesn't.
We need to get that
particular message out there, don't we?
Because we need to help particularlyyounger women who are experiencing hair
loss in a severe way, totally unexpected,that it isn't who you are.
(14:58):
Who we are is the people that we are.
And I always say that it's important thatwe smile to people.
I know it sounds really naff maybe, but...
I just think that smiling and smiling atsomebody else and getting a smile back is
just such a wonderful feeling and you makesomebody else feel great, it actually
(15:21):
makes you feel great.
I try to keep things like that at the topof my mind when I'm having days where I'm
not feeling that great about myself.
It's true.
Yeah.
So it's wonderful to see and hear aboutwomen.
getting confidence as we get older becausethat's exactly what happened to me as
well.
(15:42):
The older I get, the more confident Ibecame in myself.
And we hear a lot of women talking abouthair loss and we've so far heard quite a
lot of really interesting stories andreally different stories.
But what do you think it is, andparticularly being a psychologist, you
might have a different, interesting viewon this, but what do you think it is about
(16:05):
women growing older?
That means that we do find thatconfidence.
Well, I think part of it is because, youknow, as you know, in the culture that we
live in, it's only younger women areactually valued generally.
You know, older women are not valued.
There's no doubt about it.
I see it at work all the time where someof my male colleagues look at me and you
can see their confusion like, what are youand why are you here?
(16:29):
Because you're not decorative and youdon't seem to serve a function.
So I just want you to be airbrushed out.
And unfortunately,
I think that's, you know, that's whathappens.
And paradoxically, what comes with thatinvisibility is liberation, because you
just think, you know what, who cares?
You know, who cares what I look likeanyway, because that, it clearly doesn't
(16:52):
define who I am, because I've had to findother ways of feeling positive about
myself, other than getting some attentionfrom men or whatever.
And that, I think that's a big thing withit.
And I think just the other thing I'veobserved, I haven't got kids.
but my sisters have got children and allmy best friends have got children.
And I think what they would say is havingchildren makes you just not care about
(17:16):
what other people think because the onlything that matters is your kids.
And I think that's probably true as wellfor women.
Yeah, yeah, that's an interestingperspective on it actually.
So how are you feeling about your hairnow?
Well, I mean, you know, I know Bambi,you're the owner of
boost and blend but that today Idiscovered that transformed my life
(17:39):
completely.
Right.
I wouldn't I would no more go out withoutmy hair fibers in than I would go out
naked honestly.
And it's I mean, I've only been using it ayear.
And every time I put them on, and I lookin the bathroom mirror go, my god, I just
can't believe the difference.
Every single time.
You know, three little shakes now I've gotgoing and I usually do it twice and you
(18:03):
just can't see and it's just
absolutely incredible.
And I just my biggest sorrow is that Ididn't know about them earlier and that
they weren't around when I was young.
That's my big sorrow.
Yeah.
It's a fantastic product.
I mean, you know, and I'm not saying thatbecause I'm being interviewed about it.
I do.
I mean, I tell my hairdresser, you know,she just every time she cuts my hair, she
(18:26):
just goes, wow.
And I've given her all the, you know, theinformation to pass on to her clients.
But yeah.
That's what's changed for me as well.
that's great.
Well, I also wouldn't go out the doorwithout mining any more than I would go
out naked.
I can tell you that for me, that is howimportant it is to me.
(18:48):
Yeah, me too.
Absolutely.
Just wouldn't be without it.
It takes two seconds to transform.
You don't have to go out worrying aboutwho stood behind you.
Yeah, exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah, I was talking to a young girl oncewho told me who had a hair loss at the
back of her head and she told me she was28 and she said to me that she always
(19:10):
stood with her back to a wall.
And yeah, same as me.
Yeah.
And I just, well, I introduced her toBoost and Blend and that was the end of
standing with her back to the wall.
But it's just, it really is, it plays onour mind and we all obviously feel that
way.
So is there anything that you'd like?
other women who might be going throughsomething similar to know.
(19:32):
I think not necessarily about Boost andBlend, but about just about hair loss in
general.
I think the big thing is remembering thatit doesn't define who you are.
And the other big thing is, you know, ifpeople can't be sensitive about it and,
you know, and be kind, avoid them, don'tgo near them, don't entertain them.
(19:52):
You don't want people like that in yourlife.
That's what I would say.
Just, you just don't.
I mean, when I look back at some of thethings that got said to me as a young
woman and people that were supposedfriends, I sometimes have little, you
know, when I wake up at night, which isthe older woman's, you know, bug is a bear
that you wake up in the middle of thenight, don't you?
And I remember some of the things that gotsaid and what I would say now if it got
(20:16):
said to me.
And my view is just have zero tolerance topeople who don't understand.
You just, you don't entertain them.
You don't want people like that in yourlife.
No, I couldn't agree more.
The people who love you and the people whoare worth being with are the people who
show sensitivity to you and care aboutyou.
(20:36):
Yeah, very good advice.
I concur 100%.
And it's not easy to do sometimes,particularly when those people are part of
your family.
But I think we've all experienced familydifficulties as we've got older and the
same thing applies.
You decide on the boundaries.
and you stick to your own boundaries.
(20:56):
And I think that's, you know, that'sreally good advice.
Well, thank you, Penny.
No, it's been lovely to talk to you.
thank you.
Look, I just, I just really appreciateyour candidness and your willingness to be
so candid and to share with us how youfelt and how you feel, because it really
(21:17):
does help other women to know that they'renot alone and that the feelings that they
have or the worries or the concerns.
are shared by other women out here and weshare this all together.
So thank you.
Thank you so much for your time today.
No, you're welcome.
For many women as we know, hair loss comesa lot later in life when we're an adult.
(21:39):
So I thought it was really important tohear from Penny who grew up with hair
loss.
Okay, time now for our Did You Know?
And this week I'm going to give you arundown of the different types of female
hair loss.
(21:59):
Have you had a formal diagnosis for yourhair loss yet?
Do you know a lot about one type of hairloss?
Well, if not, maybe you've seen all thenames of all the different types and
you're a bit confused.
Well, that's what today's Did You Know isall about, different types of hair loss.
Basically, I think hair loss can becategorized into two separate types.
(22:26):
The first one is shedding, which is thefast and furious, obvious, sudden type of
hair loss that we see in TE or telogeneffluvium.
And then the second type is a more gradualhair loss, which happens very gradually
over time.
So gradual hair loss can often beassociated with age, but it can also be
(22:51):
quite alarming if gradual hair loss seemsto be happening to someone who's much
younger.
And this can of course be due to so manyfactors of as we've sort of talked about
before, for example, age, genetics,hormones, a vitamin or a mineral
(23:12):
deficiency of some kind.
And some of these can be caused by otherconditions like perhaps celiac disease or
autoimmune conditions and of course thebig one, stress.
So,
Let's take a very quick and generalizedlook at these types of hair loss.
So of course, if any of this feels like itrings true for you, please talk to your
(23:37):
doctor.
Get some specific advice for your ownsituation.
To start with the word alopecia.
Alopecia is the medical term for hair lossand it covers all types of hair loss.
So it's when you start combining
alopecia with other words that you startto see a more individual diagnosis.
(24:01):
For example, alopecia areata.
Now that's an autoimmune condition andthat appears or can appear as patchy hair
loss.
So if you've read my book or you mighthave heard in another episode of this
podcast, the first sign of hair loss forme was a small circular patch.
(24:23):
that my hairdresser found, which was quiteshocking and devastating for me at the
time.
So when we're talking about the patchyhair loss of alopecia areata, like in my
case, what it looks like is a very well-defined patch, usually a circular patch.
Now there is another type of alopeciacalled alopecia totalis and that's
(24:47):
complete baldness, so of the scalp.
Or
There is another type which is total hairloss all over the body and that's known as
alopecia universalis.
The names kind of do make sense don't theywhen you know what they are.
But for today's purposes I thought I'dmove on to a slightly longer discussion
(25:08):
about androgenic alopecia or also calledandrogenetic alopecia, same thing.
Now that is the most common form of hairloss in men.
and it's caused by an excessive responseto androgens, when the androgens are the
male hormones, which both men and womenhave, but men have a lot more of.
(25:30):
This type of hair loss is actually rare inwomen.
It can happen, but sometimes when womenare diagnosed with androgenic alopecia,
they might mean female pattern hair loss,which I'll go into in just a moment.
Androgenic alopecia tends to be
seen in men doesn't tend to be seen inwomen.
(25:51):
I just want to get that point.
There is treatment available forandrogenic alopecia and it usually
involves some kind of anti -androgentherapy.
If you've done a little reading, you wouldhave heard of perhaps spirulactone or as
we tend to call it, spiro or spiro.
Women use that and it works by reducingthe androgen receptor.
(26:17):
But
It has to be prescribed so it's notsomething you can go and get across the
counter.
But that brings me to female hair loss,which I think is often incorrectly called
androgenetic alopecia.
And I read a lot about this and I haveread a lot about this over the years.
And it would seem that scientists too areincreasingly questioning this term
(26:42):
androgenic alopecia when used for women.
I think the words
really have been used because it's whatmale pattern baldness is called.
And so this sort of term female androgenicalopecia seem to become more mainstream
and used more and more.
But the studies that I've read show thatthe reasons for female pattern hair loss
(27:05):
differs really massively from male patternhair loss and it doesn't actually involve
androgens at all, which is why the termfemale
pattern hair loss is in most cases a muchmore accurate and helpful term.
So this is only a very quick overview.
There is so much in this.
(27:26):
There really is so much in this.
Okay, so those are the main types ofgradual hair loss, but let's talk about
sudden hair loss.
So telogen effluvium or TE is the suddenshedding.
So that often happens a few months after atrigger of sorts, usually something
has happened to your body, maybe somethingemotional, physical, stressful.
(27:50):
You can listen to other episodes onillness and stress to find out more about
TE.
I'll link to those in the show notes.
Then there's frontal fibrosing alopecia,which is the hair loss that occurs around
the hairline, mostly at the front.
It can also affect the eyebrows andeyelashes.
It's known as a scarring type of hairloss.
(28:13):
And there can be a genetic factor as well,or it can be hormone, autoimmune,
inflammatory, environmental.
It is quite rare and it tends to occur inpost -menopausal women, but not always.
I just mentioned it's a scarring type ofhair loss.
So what does that mean?
You probably heard that term used.
(28:34):
So it's the type of hair loss where thefollicle is completely destroyed.
No amount of topical treatments orreversing the underlying causes will fix
scarring hair loss.
Okay, so that's been a very quick recap.
I hope it's given you a bit of an idea ofeach type of hair loss.
There are more types of hair loss.
These are just the most common ones.
(28:54):
And there are other episodes where I lookat certain types of hair loss more closely
and I'll link to those in the show notestoo.
So in the interest of time, I haven't beenable to tell you everything, but it is all
covered in much more detail in my book.
So that brings us to the end of anotherepisode of the Hair Loss in Women podcast.
(29:14):
As with all these episodes, theinformation shared is really of a general
nature.
If you want health advice specific to you,please make an appointment with your GP or
your health professional.
I hope you've enjoyed this.
Don't forget to subscribe or follow thepodcast so you know when a new episode is
(29:35):
out.
And as always,
Let me leave you with these words I liketo live by.
Kindness is beautiful, so wear it everyday.
Thanks for joining me on the Hair Loss inWomen podcast.
And a big thank you to the women who sharetheir stories here and with others in
(29:57):
their community.
One of the hardest things about hair lossfor women is that we don't talk about it.
So if you do want to hear more, pleasesubscribe to the podcast.
And if you like what you heard, why notleave a review?
Positive reviews will help other women tofind this podcast too.
You can also find out more in my book.
(30:17):
care loss in women.
This podcast has been recorded in Sydney,Australia and is produced by Pod and Pen
Productions.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.