Thomas Rhett: The Pressure to Get It "Right"

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
Every time I walk on stage, I'm like, do I deserve to be here?
The population has spoken and said we think you're pretty good
at this. I just think I have to get to a
point where I believe it. But that's why people are drawn
to you. It's not the perfect version.
It's the version that's humble enough to say I am on the way,
and I probably always will be. How's your life?
I'm like, it's Mach 12. As busy as my schedule is, I
have to carve out intentional time with each child.

(00:21):
They don't need you to take him to Disney World.
They just need to see your eyes when you talk.
That's your gift if he thinks it's a superpower.
Being married is hard. Being a father is hard.
It's the most humbling thing in the world.
But it is so fun to live a life with someone that is so
opposite. Like how I would love to view
life that way. What's the benefit and what's
the challenge? When I love something, I go all

(00:43):
in on it. I finally had to ask myself the
question like what is a hit? Is it a number one on the radio?
Did it go viral on TikTok? For me on this project, it's
like, is it going to resonate with someone's soul?
You get this natural gift in being able to go all in on
something, but often it's very difficult to turn it off.
Well, why would I even play if Ican't be great at it?
You are not what you do. There is something greater than

(01:05):
you that loves you unconditionally, and you're
enough. We've been taught everything
except how to be human. I'm Miles Adcox, and this
podcast turns a raw experience into practical wisdom.
So if you're ready to stop performing your life and start
participating in it, you're in the right place.
This is human school. I've known our guest today for

(01:28):
quite some time. In my world, he isn't the guy
standing in front of sold out arenas or the voice coming
through as a number one song on radio.
He's just a guy who shows up. He's the friend who is
constantly wrestling with how tobe a better version of himself
than he was yesterday. He spent his life under a bright
spotlight, and sure, he's checked every box you're

(01:49):
supposed to check in his industry, dozens of number one
hits and enough awards to fill aroom.
But the thing I've always admired most about him has
nothing to do with the stage. What I see in him, what I've
experienced in him over the years, is a rare kind of
intentionality. He is a man who is deeply
committed to the quiet work. He's a guy who navigates the

(02:13):
beautiful, loud chaos of being ahusband and a father to four
daughters and now a son with a heart that is always wide open.
He's a fixer by nature, someone who instinctively wants to solve
the problem and make it right. But he's done the hard work,
soulful work of learning when tostop fixing and start just being
present in the mess. He has this incredible way of

(02:36):
making a massive life feel smalland intimate, choosing to stay
tethered to the people and the values that actually matter.
He's a songwriter, A seeker, andabove all else, a truly good man
who I'm proud to call a friend. Please.
Welcome to human school, my buddy Thomas Reddick.
What's up, man? Welcome buddy that.
Was beautiful. Thank you, thank you.

(02:56):
It's hard to get through right out of the gate.
I felt like that kid in 3rd grade who couldn't read in front
of the class. I still feel that way man.
Out of the gate on a Monday morning?
Well dude, I'm glad to see you. Me too man, thanks.
For having me took lights and microphones to get us together
to catch up. But I'll, I'll take.
It, I know it, I know 22 busy schedules we got to, we got to
get back out riding those horsestoo at some point.
Yeah, we do. There's a lot to catch up on,

(03:17):
which I'm excited to do with you.
And I, I saw this morning you pull in right when I did and I
noticed I, I kind of got to, I kind of laughed a little bit
because I hadn't seen you in a while.
And I know you're kind of a truck guy.
Meaning you find out you trucks are fun for you and you're
always in a new one. And then I'm in one of your old
trucks because it was too big topark in a garage was your

(03:38):
reason. I got one bigger than that.
For your reason, for your reasonselling to me and I look at my
rearview mirror and I was like, I think you just pulled in in a
bigger truck than the one I got from him.
I know. Yeah.
Green Hills is off limits for me.
Yeah, can't go there. But I could see why you're in
Ford now that new song out. But also I love that that
ironically, that's the one. Is it a King Ranch?
King Ranch, Yeah. That's what I want.

(03:58):
It's fun, Lauren. Lauren the other day said, I
wish that you would just drive like it's just a normal dad
truck. And I think what she meant by
that is like, why do you have tolift?
Why do you have to put huge tires?
Why do you have to have a winch?Why do you have to have a
toolbox? Why do you have to have two
gunner kennels in the back? And I'm like, I don't know,
I've, I've been a truck guy for as long as I can remember in any
time I've ever got in a truck isfirst thing I do is go straight

(04:19):
put a leveling kit on it. Geared out, geared out, you're a
gear guy. I'm a gear guy.
Why? Why do you think you nerd out on
all that stuff? I don't, I mean, I don't know,
I've always been like any, anything that I put my mind to.
I, I sort of become, I won't saya master at whatever it is, but
I would like to, I put, I put these like kind of like levels
in all of my different hobbies, whether it's been skiing or fly

(04:41):
fishing was the biggest one for me.
I Remember Me and Lauren right before I played a bunch of shows
in Australia, We did like 8 or 9days in New Zealand and it was
my very first time fly fishing with her.
And so when I got home for my birthday that year, she got me,
you know, all the, the like The Sims pack and like The Sims
waiter and a Scott rod and able reel.
And I think my mind just when I,when I love something, I go all

(05:03):
in on it. So I mean hunting for sure.
I mean, you should see my camo closet.
I mean, I could, I could outfit 70 people, I think with my
camouflage closet. Every pattern, all the boots
knee high, ankle high. Like I, I just, I love diving
head first into the thing that Ilove so.
And you've always been that way.Always been that way, even from

(05:24):
I mean, I can remember being 12 years old, you know, people were
skateboarding was really cool when I was 12.
And so diving into watching a whole bunch of skateboarding
videos and going to the skate shop and picking different
wheels and picking different bearings and picking the right
grip tape and all that kind of stuff.
I've just always been a guy thatloves to.
I just love gear and I let you know about it so.
I do too and I'm a hobbyist. We share that I don't know and I

(05:46):
and I do go all in on certain hobbies.
But then in some cases I'll I'llget average at all of them and
never graded any of them becauseyou're I'm.
So I'm always looking for the next one or what I'm enjoying.
What's the one that's top of thefood chain for you right now?
I know you've been playing a lotof golf.
Right now I'd probably be GG andhunting for sure.
But obviously it's seasonal. You know, we love, we have duck

(06:08):
hunt and I love the deer hunt, but there's only a couple months
out of the year. But golf is something that you
can kind of do all year round. And just to make my hobby more
addictive, actually put a simulator in my house.
Did you where? Downstairs in our little gym
area, that's a perfect spot. For one, because you had, yeah,
you had room there. So after the kids have gone to
bed for the last like five nights, I've just gone down and

(06:28):
just like asking, you know, ChadGBT and all this kind of stuff,
like, hey, here's all, here's myspin rate, here's my apex,
here's my launch angle, here's my face angle in my path.
And I love diving into like the science.
Like, if you're watching it, Bryson Dechambeau's stuff, like
how much of A nerd he is about golf.
And, you know, he cut all this iron, so, like, the same length.

(06:49):
And I just think it's so fascinating to watch these pros
about how ridiculously smart they are about grass and
elevation and wind and all the things.
And so that simulator has taken my hobby to the next level, to
A, to a new height. I need you.
I got to come see it and I got to talk to you about what you
got 'cause I'm building a barn right now that I'm.

(07:09):
I was going to put a simulator in, but they're across the board
in terms of quality and price and everything.
It's hard to know they. Are I got I got the full swing
set up. This full swing is like the
brand, but track man kind of wasthe one that started all off.
It's really good. And there's one that I I went I
went to the Masters last year and played at the Delta event
and they had this other brand called HD golf.

(07:29):
I think it's what it was and like if you're on a lie, like
the actual mat will like raise it or lower you and there's like
sort of real sand, like, you know, like green sand, fairway
sand or fairway bunker, decent rough, thick rough and then like
turf. And like I would say that is the
most detailed and the most the most styled.

(07:49):
But full swing is feeling. It's got games for the kids too.
They can kick soccer ball at it and all that kind of mess, but
it's a blast. Speaking of masters too, you
just you just did recorded for the masters the that was
incredible. It was so cool, man.
You know, I've, I've Charles Kelly did it, Kane Brown did it,
Noah Kahn did it. It's kind of become a trend for,
you know, artists to do sort of their rendition of Georgia.

(08:12):
And for me, being from Valdosta,GA, really South Georgia, it was
just a huge honor. Also a little bit terrifying,
even though Ray Charles didn't write and originally record
that. Song.
Well, so who wrote the original George?
Which I find that his guitar player, I think that's another.
Yeah, someone sent me the vinyl the other day that was like the

(08:32):
original. Will find it.
That is such a legendary song. Legendary song.
And it I usually so affiliated with him 'cause I sang the crap
out of it, but I for some reasonI thought he wrote it too.
No, he did not write it, but obviously his is the most famous
version of that song. And so when you're trying to
like be in the studio, trying todo anything remotely as good as
Ray Charles would have done it, it's just a little bit scary.
Little intimidate. It's a.
Little bit scary, but it was good.

(08:53):
Julian produced it. My band played on it, which is
really special. I remember just watching, you
know, some of the, the, the commercials for the masters and
hearing, hearing your voice while you're watching Scotty hit
or Rory hit. And it's kind of just, you know,
droning through Eamonn Corner and up Magnolia Lane.
It's just a it's a pretty surreal feeling, probably.
Jim Nance probably leading it. In Jim Nance.

(09:14):
Yeah, probably one of the coolest things I've gotten to do
in my career. It got my attention.
When you do, I like, as I said in the intro, I kind of know you
as a regular guy for sure. And and then sometimes I look up
and I was like, Oh yeah, wait, he's a global superstar.
That's all that. Interesting thing.
That was very, very cool though,and such a huge honor.
It what? What number are you playing at
now? I'm.
Playing an 8 What? Playing an 8.

(09:35):
No wonder you got obsessed with it, yeah?
Should be a six well. You cut your number in half
since I played with you. That's only been a few years
ago. Yeah, you know, every, every
time I get on the golf course, man, like I, I, I feel like I
need like a mental coach. That's the, I would say that for
me, you know how much of A basket case I can be with
anything. Same with me.
But man, like I could, I could be, I was out at Richland the

(09:57):
other day playing and I shot like a 37 on the front 9 and I
was just like, this is about to be the most epic round of my
entire life. And then I get to 10 triple
bogey, blew it up. Get to 11, triple bogey.
And it's all, it's almost like your brain goes, you can't do
this now because you've messed up, which is probably my, how I

(10:18):
treat failure, you know what I'msaying?
Like from, for even from a youngage, like I've always been just
super critical and super hard onmyself, which is probably why I
love golf so much is because it is honestly, it is the
unmasterable game. You know what I mean?
Like even the pros there, there's part of, I mean, I love
watching pros play well, but there's also a part of me that
even loves more when they mess up to watch how they, how they

(10:39):
respond, how they recover from that.
Yeah, what's it? Was it Ted Lass or was it be a
goldfish? I'm not a great goldfish.
I'm a great keeper of, of my of my failure and and all that kind
of stuff. But actively working through it,
trusting the process. You must be, but that's an
impressive. I mean that's that's really
good. I it's so fun.
I did I tell you I joined the club below your farm finally.

(11:02):
The Golf Club. Yeah, Congrat.
Hey, congratulations. Yeah, finally got in it.
I've been wanting to do that. It's been a dream for a long
time to me. I love, I mean, there's great
courses in Tennessee, but that is quintessential middle.
It's just every every vantage point, every view, I feel like
I'm escaping into somewhere else. 100% It's the it's the
first time I've played golf thatit felt like hunting to me. 100%

(11:23):
because I go to the woods to disappear.
I mean, hunting is just part of it, but I really go for.
Peace. Yeah, totally.
And and that and I could I foundthat at, you know, at that golf.
Lab that upper courses. Oh my goodness, I've only, I've
only played it one time and I probably won't play it again for
a while until my game gets tunedup a little bit because it was
humbling. I mean I was all I lost I think
4 balls the 1st. All the all the all the drop
offs like where you have to be. Yeah, it's a tough little track.

(11:46):
But the low course I absolutely love, and I thought about you
the other day because I've been going out there in the
afternoons and getting 9 or 10 or 11 in and been taking
Maverick, trying to get him intoit.
They're going to. Do it.
I can't tell yet. He's going to be a little bit
like me and you. Frankly.
He's a multi hobbyist. He likes just about anything he
tries. He's not where's you'll lock in
on it for a while. He's more like he wants to bring

(12:07):
a football when we play. And so he's running patterns by
the 4th hole, you know, and he'll he'll swing and he wants
me to pass No deal. Tell me about the mental side of
the game. I saw and I wish I could recall
it, but I've got the Monday morning cobwebs, so I probably
won't be able to. I may pull it up.
It was that poignant to me. It was kind of cool, but I'm,
I'm, I'm getting back into it a because I, I love competition, I

(12:29):
love sports, but I like the mental stimulation and you kind
of leaned that way earlier, but I heard Nick Saban say something
about it the other day. He's a big golfer and loves
golf. I'm going to pull it up actually
in just a minute. But the mental side of that
game, of everything that we do, hunting, fishing, all of it,
even fly fishing, it all has mental stimulation.
But there's something about thatone that requires critical

(12:50):
thought like what you're describing, and then it requires
you to turn it off and to get into rhythm and tempo totally.
Most days seems impossible. It's such an interesting bridge
to try to cross. It is man.
And like, I feel like I've been fortunate enough to, you know,
not become like great buddies, but just even just decent
buddies with a, with a couple ofpro players.
And I was actually out playing in a little kind of Ryder Cup

(13:12):
style deal a couple months ago and there's a there's a pro
golfer by the name of Ben Crane.You ever?
Heard of? He's crushing right now, by the
way. He's like finished top ten in
the last two tournaments. Anyway, we were out there and he
was playing with me and he, you know, he watched me play a few
good holes and then he was actively watching me fall apart.
And I remember standing over this 4 foot putt and when you've

(13:33):
already, when you're already, you know, putting for five on a,
on a par three, you, my brain just goes, why don't we just,
why don't we just go back to theclubhouse?
You know what I mean? Like I, it's almost like, and I
see this in, in my daughter, AdaJames too, or like she plays
softball and if she strikes out,she's just like, why would I
even play if I can't be great atit?
You know what I mean? And I kind of have a little bit

(13:54):
of that, which is probably what drives me so much because I,
it's like, I can't stop until I've reached my level of quote
UN quote perfection. And I'm standing over this 4
foot putt and I look at man, andI said, I'm going to miss this.
And he was like, it's that rightthere.
He pointed at me. He's like, that is your biggest
problem in this game. He was like, what if you retrain
your brain to say, would it be cool if I made this putt?

(14:17):
You know what I mean? Wouldn't it be cool?
Like even if you're on the T box, wouldn't it be cool if I
hit the exact little 5 yard drawthat I plan on hitting in my
mind, you know what I mean? And even if it doesn't happen,
you at least set your body and your mind up to maybe make it.
But if you sit there and you go,I'm going to miss this putt,
probably 98% chance you're actually going to miss the putt

(14:37):
and then you're going to carry it on to the next deal.
And like, like golf to me is so much like life And, and I can
carry it on into my into my parenting.
I can carry it on into my marriage.
I can carry it into my work for sure.
You know, I'm sort of like the kind of guy that like, I think I
just want everything to be how Idreamed it would be or how I

(14:57):
planned it would be. And so, like, if I, you know, if
we've got a tour on sale and, you know, the Thursday night is
sold out, but the Friday night is struggling and the Sunday
night is sold out. It's almost like I can't even
take Friday and Sunday for the winds that they are because
Saturday is not sold out. Does that make sense?
And so like, in a way, like I walk on the stage sometimes,

(15:19):
like feeling defeated before I've even I walked out there,
you know what I mean? Look at my band.
And I'm like, like, are you pumped up?
I'm like, yeah, am I? You know what I mean?
And I'm the leader. I'm the leader of this thing.
And they're watching their leader just be a just, you know,
throw in this pity party in sometype of way.
And so I really, really had to work hard at even when the

(15:40):
circumstances are not how I thought they would be.
I get to somebody said the day. It's like, don't talk what they
say. Don't talk to yourself.
I will think of that. But it's like how you speak to
your own self is so important. And I'm such a horrible self
talker of myself working on it actively, but like changing that

(16:03):
thought process to, you know what the right people are here
tonight that that frames it so differently then it's not sold
out. Does that make sense?
Totally so. Well, and I've always
experienced you that way in our,our friendship over the years is
you're, I would say you're a critical thinker with a bit of
an obsessive loop. Sometimes you'll get really

(16:23):
looped on a particular problem you're trying to solve.
I complimented you on that because there's a good side to
it. You know, when I read you in the
beginning what I wrote about youbecause it's, it's, it's a great
tool when you need it, when you can go all in on something.
It's what makes you one of the best songwriters that's ever
been in this town and on and on and on.
We can say other things. It's been it's also going to be
what's going to make you a greatdad and all the things you'll

(16:45):
get obsessive about. And then it's got the shadow
side that we can lock in on a problem that we have very little
control over and can't solve. And as you said, that noise can
get so loud that we can't hear the winds around us.
And I've you and I've had several conversations.
That's one of the reasons I brought up golf and camped out
there for a minute because it isthe most metaphorical game that
I've ever played that parallels life in such a beautiful way.

(17:07):
And interestingly enough, it's where a lot of sports, where
psychology entered sports, that's kind of where it started,
is golf. Most golfers, sports psychology
is not foreign to them. They have studied the mental
side of the game. Most I'd say the 90% I've talked
to have studied the mental side of the game.
Whereas if you get into the NFL and MLB and others, it's
trending. It's just starting to become
important to where you might have a therapist or a life coach

(17:29):
in tow. Golf, it's been around since the
origin and when you start playing it, you completely
understand why. The most humbling thing in the
world, Very little control, but also you got to critically think
and understand the mechanism of how to do it.
And then you got to let all thatgo in the moment.
How does that apply to parentingto you?
For some reason, this commercialwas playing back in my mind.
Do you remember this, this TigerWoods Nike commercial from back

(17:52):
in like I think it was 96 and it's Tiger stand in front of the
camera. He's like golf, super easy.
Take the club back, swing, hit, there you go.
And then they do all the bloopers and it's like make sure
your shoulder doesn't tilt, makesure your hips turn at the right
pace and make sure your face angles.
You've you've seen this commercial.
I don't know, somebody pull it up.
It's like I got to see it. He basically like the the first
part of the commercials, like golf is super easy and then he

(18:13):
goes through his entire thought press before he's swinging and
it basically is showing the the person watching like you can't
be great unless you do this as much as I do this and I'm what
was your question? But it was it wasn't.
Well, yeah, what it was. I was segwaying golf to family
or parenting. But before we get there, I
pulled this up and listen to what Saban says about this.

(18:35):
You feel good. Yeah, I'm playing a lot of golf.
How's the game? Sometimes good, sometimes bad,
man. That's a metaphor of life, That
game. I mean, you know, I mean, you
hit a good shot, you got to dealwith success.
You had a bad shot, you got to deal with failure and focus on
the next shot. And if you don't focus on every
shot, you get punished. I mean, it's the damnedest
thing. That's Go.

(18:57):
That is, go football. What's bad for you?
What's bad? You said some days good, some
days bad. What's bad?
Oh well, some days I can't put, some days I can't hit it
straight off the team. What do you mean?
80 bad. I've shot my age 3 times.
When's the most recent time? You shot 68 recently, about a
week ago. Anyway, I just love the way he
said that 100. Percent.

(19:18):
Sometimes it's good, sometimes it's bad.
You're either dealing with it and I've never heard anybody
frame it to where if if you hit a good shot, you got to deal
with success. Yeah, that's a really
interesting and I've learned it and we, we were about to segue
into parenting. Did you find the Tiger Woods ad?
Yeah, let me see it real quick. You got it.
Flip it around. I can watch it from.
There, have you seen this, Harry?
It's awesome. And now golf's not hard with

(19:40):
Tiger Woods. And here's in T range.
Too many people overcomplicate the golf swing.
Today, we're going to make it simple.
First, place the ball off the inside of your left heel.
Second, bend your knees slightly.
And finally, keep the left arm straight.

(20:01):
Voila, you're on your way to a better golf swing.
Of course, you also want to maintain the triangle too and
lead with your hips. And other than taking the club
back low and slow, that's all there is to it.
As long as you allow your weightto shift to the inside.
Your right square and your left heel planted and the V between
your thumb and forefinger pointing to your right shoulder
and the club gripped gently likea wounded bird.

(20:22):
And your left shoulder on your chin.
Allowing your hands to rotate through the impact area and
maintaining a stable lower body position while finishing with
your belt buckle facing the target with your rear elbow
Hint. That should help take the
mystery out of the golf swing bythe woods and you that we can
all be better. Oh, got to bring that back.
It's so good. And I, and I was about to talk

(20:43):
about parenting because I, I think I've got, you know, we're
at, we started at a similar time, but you've continued to
add to your, your herd or flock or whatever you want to call
them, just brought in #5 But the, what we're talking about,
which is your, you got this natural gift and being able to
go all in on something. But often it's very difficult to
turn it off when you're obsessedabout the hard parts of that

(21:05):
challenge and you get wrapped upin it.
How has it benefited you as a, as a dad?
And how might it be challenging you as a dad?
I'll start with the ways I thinkit's benefited me.
I think it's benefited me by like when I, when I plan like a
dinner, like just a family dinner.
I mean, it's we're we're we're not just doing hot dogs, you

(21:26):
know what I mean? Like I'm going to butcher shop,
I'm getting best cut of meat. I'm going to, you know, Sperry's
mercantile getting the loaded. But I'm doing I'm doing it.
It's almost like it's almost like I have to put on like a
production in a way for my kids.And maybe that's not actually a
benefit, but like my obsessive nature goes all right, well, if
we're going to play softball, then we got to go out to the

(21:47):
field on days we're not practicing, you know what I'm
saying? Like we got a, we got a field
balls, we got a we got to learn the the flip for double play, we
got to learn how to bunt, we gotto learn how to swing with our
hip in. And then sometimes I just forget
that my kids are are 8. Does that make sense?
Totally. And so I think I can get very
fixated on my role as a dad. Like even like I could take this

(22:07):
morning for an example, I woke up a little bit late, Lauren
woke up a little bit late. We have a, you know, an 8 week
old who wakes up through the night and all those kind of
things. And when I get up in the
mornings, if I wake up into a rush, I'm arguably the worst
person to be around in in human history.
Like, I'm like flip on the lights in the bedrooms.
Like, get out of bed. We got to brush your teeth, get

(22:27):
your clothes on. Hey, let's brush your hair now.
So we're not late in the car. I'm going to pick sausage here.
I'm going to do bagels here. I'm going to do this.
And then someone spills grape juice all over a white chair and
someone dumps someone just feeding the dog sausage.
And my brain, I get spiraling super hard to the point where
it's just like, I don't know that I've even loved my kids
well at all this morning. So by the time they get out of

(22:48):
the the car to go to school, I'mlike, hey, I love y'all.
And they're like, really? You know what?
I'm saying it's like I'm so focused on the task, which is
getting everybody to that drop off line on time.
And I've missed so many incredible moments from the,
from the hour of, you know, 6:30to to 7:30 in the morning.
And so where I, where I feel like maybe sometimes I'm being

(23:11):
helpful. Sometimes I just wonder if I'm
like a little bit overbearing, you know what I mean?
Because like, in their mind they're like, well, but I, but I
kind of just want to eat my cereal slow.
What a concept, you know what I'm saying?
We live. I mean, every time someone asked
me like, how's your life? I'm like, it's Mach 12, Mach 12.
And I would say you could ask pretty much any man or woman

(23:33):
with, with a, at least 2, two kids or more of what their life
is like. And it's Mach 12.
Then you add sports into it. I feel like I'm in this season
where like I I was telling time this minute.
He goes like I see my kids, but I don't I don't really I'm not I
don't see my kids. Does it make sense?
We're either on the way to volleyball, we're on the way to
softball, we're on the way to soccer.
We're on the way to this a birthday party, a wedding, a

(23:54):
baby shower, get your homework done, study for your ERB.
Like there's never really time to just be like, oh, what is it?
What is this? What is this piece feel like?
And I think I'm in the sort of the mode right now.
We're like, I have to sort of gointernally go put my feet in the
grass, stare at the sun for three minutes and come back
inside and like almost like create my own peace amongst the

(24:16):
chaos. I was at a summit last week and
John Maxwell was speaking. You've heard any John Maxwell?
It's unbelievable. There's one thing that he said
that caught caught me off, not off guard, but just got my
attention. And he said you have to quit
taking yourself so seriously. Like you have to learn how to
laugh at yourself because I promise you other people are

(24:37):
laughing at you. That's what he said.
Come on. And when I like really look back
at this morning, What's the worst case scenario?
You know what I mean? Worst case scenario is that we
were 10 minutes late to school. You know what I mean?
And I decided to be this like task oriented sort of OCD dad,

(24:57):
you know, slam a protein shake do do all the things they need
to do. Brush your hair, put a ponytail
in, don't rub your sausage fingers all over my leather
chairs. You know what I'm saying?
And in reality, what I have doneis like, I'm now teaching them
that pace of life. I'm really not teaching them how
to slow at all, which is what I'm trying to coach myself on
everyday. And I'm actually teaching them
to move faster. You know what I mean?

(25:20):
And I know that you have to teach your kids like how to do
and how to go and how to know like, hey, this time means this
time. And if we're not here at this
time, we have to be late. But at the same time, like worst
case scenarios were 10 minutes late at school.
And so I think you're just allowing myself the grace to
realize that the worst case scenario is really not that bad.
And I don't even know if I answered your question.

(25:41):
Well, I don't even know that I asked one.
That's what's fun about these conversations.
I don't know that's a specific one, but I'm really enjoying
kind of hearing your thoughts about this because I think it's
highly relatable. You said quite a bit there. 1st
I'll acknowledge one thing, which is a lot of people don't
know you have that skill, which is you're an incredible chef.
I've, I've seen you on the grillbefore.
I've been in duck camps with youwhere you did these reverse
sears. And I'm like, how in the world

(26:03):
did you do that? So you could call that a
production or you could call it just, I want to put a lot of
intention. I want to put a lot of intention
into an experience for my kids. So I, I, I see it more as that,
I see you doing that. Every dinner I've ever been at
is, if we're going to do this, let's do it right, Let's make it
good. So I wouldn't be too hard on
yourself there. And I think what you're
describing in terms of the obsessive nature of trying to do

(26:24):
a whole lot of activity in a short amount of time is really
pressure. It's our relationship with
pressure. And how am I going to navigate
pressure in this environment butnot put that pressure on to my
kids, which is the ultimate challenge.
I don't know that any parent perfects that.
There may be one out there. I certainly don't.
I swing and whiff at that one about every other school day

(26:44):
when I'm trying to get them ready.
But you do start to realize, andthat's what you're so good at.
That's why I've always loved ourconversations.
And you may remember when I did,I think I did ask a question.
I was, I was saying the way you're wired, what's the benefit
and what's the challenge. And I noticed you and I are both
this way, which is it's part of our gifting is we want to grow
is we're much quicker to go downthe critical.

(27:06):
Side of it. And, and sometimes miss until
you just gave a perfect example,which you described earlier,
which is the 2 or the one soft sell night in the 2 sell outs
and you forget about the sell outs.
And so I would just encourage you.
And I'm I really just a mirror moment for me to encourage me
too, 'cause I wake up and our kids go to the same school.
So I wake up in that same kind of environment, just not as many

(27:26):
kids. And so I but the, the pressure's
still there, you know, and, and I think what we're learning as
parents and as people with developing little humans and
even honestly taking care of ourself is that the often
pressure makes us lose our ability to determine pace.
And for them, all they care about is presence and pace.

(27:48):
That's right. And, and that's part of the
challenge, which I think that that's why I wanted to pull that
Tiger Woods add up. I didn't remember it, but the
way you described it, I felt like it was going to take a a
very complex thing and try to simplify it and and then but
then, you know, poke fun at the complexity of it.
I really feel like that's what you described your morning as.
That's a very complex thing. It is trying to figure out five

(28:10):
kids 18 week old and get them all to school on time.
A. 100. Percent and then we're over here
saying, but it's just parenting in a way should be able to eat
slow and get right 10 minutes late.
It's like really maybe not. I know.
I think what's more important than you have talked to this,
talked about this before. I've been and that's another
thing I appreciate about the reciprocal.
Well, I was about to say a word that's not really a word.

(28:30):
Reciprocal reciprocality. Reciprocal.
There's a reciprocal nature to our friendship.
And you teed it up a long time ago because we were just going
to know each other. I think we were on a golf course
down in 38 with a bunch of guys years ago and I ended up paired
with you in a foursome or maybe even riding in a cart and we got
off. I had hacked one off and and the
stuff and you went over there with me to help me find my ball

(28:51):
and then I was setting up on it.I was already several shots into
the hole and frustrated and and you just asked me a zinger of a
question right at the minute. You said, man, I'd be curious
about something about you take care of everybody in town and
all the artists you work with, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Who takes care of you? You got anybody you're talking
to? I didn't have an answer for that
at that time. I don't know if you remember
that, but I was also a little stunned by the question because

(29:12):
I was like, wait, you're quite abit younger than me.
Where'd you get the the forethought to be able to think
about me in that way? And ever since then, we've had a
real reciprocal relationship andI and, and that's what I wanted
this whole show to be about. Some people might see me because
of my space, just the way a young songwriter and artist
might see you, because they'll look at the success and be like,

(29:32):
well, there's an expert of theircraft.
And I've got a little bit of an allergy to the concept of being
an expert because I don't think anybody ever arrives there.
I do have some lived experience and some wisdom that I'm always
happy to share. But I really believe the people
in front of me, whether they have my training and education
or not, have just as much to offer as I might have to offer
through lived experience. And that's why I wanted this

(29:55):
concept of learning something about lived experience.
And I think everybody's got something to offer.
I bet you as much as you could dissect your morning as a, as a
parent of five and an 8 week old, there's a lot I could learn
from you about parenting right now because there's a there's
just stuff you're experiencing that I there's no way I could
and there's no way a textbook could teach me.

(30:17):
And I am curious because up up until now I've got to and my,
it's just kind of happened wheremy daughter is my wife.
I mean, they are wired the same.They love the same things.
They look the same way. And so generally they just do a
lot of hanging out because they're both super creative.
And my son and I are very similar.
We're very wired the same way. So I realized my daughter to

(30:39):
celebrate her 7th birthday and this week earlier, earlier, I
guess last week. And I realized that I've not
been as intentional as I would like to be in developing a
really good relationship with mydaughter because we just do
different things. And I've got to change that
because I heard you recently saywith your oldest, what you got
like 7 summers left or somethinglike they're 8 summers.

(31:00):
And so that's one of the things I wanted to ask you selfishly
this morning, but I think I'll probably ask on behalf of a lot
of other dads and parents out there.
But you've just you've been withfour daughters, and now enter
son. What it what is raising four
daughters taught you about beinga man, about being a dad?
I think the most cliche what answer that is black men and men

(31:24):
are so different than women. You know what I mean?
And by women, I mean adults or preteens because I feel like
Willie Gray's 10, but I feel like she acts like she's 14.
And Ada James's age acts like she's 12.
And I think, I hope this answersyour question, but I think I've
genuinely had to learn how to come on to their level in

(31:46):
different ways. And when you have 5, it would be
a lot easier if everyone just enjoyed doing the same stuff.
You mean like something as easy as like, what movie do you want
to watch tonight? That is like starting a war in
our house, you know what I'm saying?
Because Willie Gray wants to watch something her age
appropriate and then Lily wants to watch Aladdin, and then you

(32:08):
got linen, you know what I mean?And it's just like they all want
to be treated the same, but theyall need different stuff.
You know what I'm saying? Like me and Willie Gray, like
obviously she's kind of she's in4th grade, she's playing much
sports, got a bunch of friends. And so we're not fully into the
my dad's not cool yet phase, butwe're we're inching there.

(32:28):
You know what I mean? I could, I could say something
like I've been saying this to Ada James and she steps up to
the plate because I love, I don't know why I love
embarrassing my kids. I just like it's like a rite of.
Passage at the. Sport phase.
But every time Ada James walks up to the plate now, I'll go
come on, slugger. And she's like, she's like.
You know what I mean? Devastated, but like my dad used

(32:50):
to do that with me. Like I'll yell like I love you
super loud, like out the window so that all the kids and you
know, walking up in here and they're just like, they just put
their head down. They're like, that's not my
father, you know what I mean? But I love it.
Like I want them to overly know that like I love them and love
to have fun with them. But you know, Ada James is just
like me. Ada James wants to dive in just

(33:11):
kind of like you and Mab. It's like, I'll try anything and
I'm probably going to be pretty good at it, you know what I
mean? Willow Gray is a little bit
different where she's a little bit quieter of a person.
And so if I walk up to Ada Jamesand be like, So what happened
today? I mean, I'm about to get an
hour's worth of feedback, you know what I'm saying?
Well, we started in this class, we did this and we did that.
We did this. And when my friend did this, my

(33:32):
friend said that. And if I were to look at Willow
Gray and say, how was your day? She'd be like, it was fine, you
know what I mean? And for some reason it sparks
this crazy chord in me because I'm such a transparent human
being. Like if you asked me about how
my shows went, I'm going to giveyou every detail.
If you asked me about how golf was, I'm going to give you every
detail. If you asked me about anything,
I just love to talk about. I don't know, I just love to

(33:53):
talk about stuff. And Willie Gray, I've noticed
that I have to get her in the right environment for her to
open up to me. So we have been, I bought her a
little Garmin like run watch. I was like, let's just why don't
me and you start walking together or running together.
And I hate to run so bad. Like I absolutely hate it.
And so this week we've done like5 or 6 miles together, like just

(34:15):
in the neighborhood. And you know, the first mile is
not much conversation at all. But then like around mile 2,
this was the the first day we started running, I was like,
hey, can we play a little game? And she was like, yeah, you
know, like she's like, you goingto let me talk about something?
You know, I was like, I was like, I get 3 questions to ask
you and then you get 3 questionsto ask me.

(34:37):
And so that way I feel like I'm taking the pressure off of
anything at all, you know? And my questions are super
surface level. It's like, who's your best
friend? What's your favorite sport?
You know what I mean? And hers are like, she goes, she
goes in when she gets the opportunity where I'm like, hey,
I'm going to tell you the whole truth right here.
Age appropriate truth. She's like, she just goes in and

(34:57):
all the sudden like that has become our time.
Even though it's only like an hour in the day, that's our time
to like really connect, you knowwhat I mean?
And then you go to linen and Lily and like all they really
want is just your, for you to bethere.
You know what I mean? They don't want to get into like
super deep conversation. They just want you just just to
be there and build blocks. So they want you to be in the
backyard kicking the soccer ball.

(35:18):
And so I think that's the hardest part about being a dad
of multiples is that you don't, you don't get just one path
because they're, because, because none of your kids are
exactly the same, you know what I mean?
And so I think the, the biggest thing I've learned this year is
that I really do have to, as busy as my schedule is, I have
to carve out intentional time with each child.
And it doesn't have to be some extravagant date night where

(35:40):
we're going to, you know, Sperry's or something like that.
It's just like, hey, Lynn and meand you are going to walk to
the, to the top of the hill in our neighborhood.
We're just going to sit there and, and hang out, you know what
I mean? Like, I think that those are the
moments they're going to remember.
Somebody said to me, it was Suzanne Marinet who's got 8 kids
and she's like, they're never really going to remember the
quantity. They're always going to remember
the quality. You know what I'm saying?

(36:01):
When you got 8 kids, how, how doyou do it?
There's only seven days in a week, you know what I mean?
But I think that I think that your kids really will remember
you taking that 10 minutes outside to like watch them do
this new trick they learned on the scooter or watch them do a
backflip on the trampoline or whatever it is.
And for me being like the I'm a,I'm a progress person, which a

(36:24):
lot of the work I've done in counseling is just like, man, I
don't, I just don't know how to be, you know what I'm saying?
Like if if someone wants me to come, like watch them build
blocks, I'm like, but what are we doing?
You know what I'm saying is. There anything you go, is this
productive? Is this productive?
Is this? Worth our time?

(36:45):
Yeah, exactly. Whereas like I can attach
productivity to. All right, you want to get
better at softball, Let's go to the field and I can watch you
ground balls and I can watch youthrow to first base.
And I feel like, OK, we've accomplished something.
It's like I've always compared. It's like, I love to chop wood.
Like in the winter time, I love to chop wood because in my
business, when you write the song, yeah, you finished a song,

(37:07):
but that's just, that's the tip of the iceberg of the success of
that song. You might wait a year after that
song is written to see if it's going to actually have panned
out into something successful ornot.
You chop a piece of wood, split you, you physically get to watch
something that was one, now become two, Then you can make it
into 4, then you can make it into 6, and now I can burn it.
You know what I'm saying? I'm physically getting like

(37:29):
getting to watch my efforts pay off.
Whereas like parenting, they're few and far between of you sort
of delivering like an inspirational speech or putting
in your being present hours. Like you may not, you might not
see that until they're 30 pay off, you know what I'm saying?

(37:50):
And so like, it is a, it's a discipline for me.
Like the discipline of being is arguably the hardest thing that
I struggle with because if I can't pair it to productivity,
it's very hard for me to stay engaged, which is probably why I
don't vacation super well. Yeah, me neither.
Someone was saying that like Europeans take and correct me if

(38:10):
I'm wrong Harry like month long.Maybe it's Italians, I don't
know. They get, they do you get a lot
more paid time off. Don't you like 4 to six weeks
off? Whereas here it's what, 14 days?
12 to 14 days on average. 1010 Wow.
Geez. Yeah.
So if you think about the last time, you're like, we should go
here for the weekend, we should go to the beach for the weekend.

(38:31):
Let's take fall break, for example.
We always go down to 38th fall break.
You get 4 days, right? By the time we're leaving to go
home is when I've just now sunk into the fact that we're here,
you know what I mean? Like, I think humans, especially
in the fast pacedness of living in America today, you, you
really do need 3 days to like sink into your trip, you know

(38:55):
what I mean? Like we just go to the beach for
a weekend. I'm just kind of like, all
right, let's build the sandcastle.
Let's put the volleyball net up.Let's, let's go do it.
Let's go have a cannonball contest.
Let's, let's do, do, do, do, do,do to make sure that our beach
thing is being accomplished. You know what I mean?
And I think God is so creative and so funny when he pairs us
with our spouses because my wifecould not be more opposite than

(39:18):
that. You know what I mean?
If a kid just ate a mouthful of sand, I have a full on come
apart. I'm like, we got to go back to
the house. We got to spray the water hose
down their throat. Are they going to die?
Are they going to choke? She's like, it's just sand.
Like how I would love to view life that way.
You know what I'm saying? Like, well, they have mayonnaise

(39:41):
all over their face. It's just mayonnaise.
You know what I mean? Like I desire so much of the
traits that my wife, I do wish my wife had a smidge more of the
trait that I have. I think we'd make it a lot more
places on time. But it is so fun to live a life
with someone that is so oppositefrom you because every day I get

(40:01):
to watch her in the same chaos that I'm in and her just be
completely chill. And I'm sitting there going, how
are you so chill? You know what I mean?
Do you not see that the world iscrumbling around us?
And she's like, it's just, we'rejust late at school, you know
what I'm saying? And I feel like if you were to
take it back 2000 years ago, they had a, they did a lot

(40:23):
better job at that. There's also way less
distractions. There were way less, you know,
if you needed to get a message to somebody, it might, it might
have taken you a month to get a message to somebody.
Now we are, we're basically all on call.
Doctors, there's no time. You can't reach me.
You know what I'm saying? My manager is sitting right here
and he'll he's the first one to look at me and say, hey, buddy,

(40:44):
go have a great time on vacation.
For some reason that gives me somuch anxiety because I'm like,
now that you're leaving me alonenow, I don't know that actually
anything productive is happeninghere, even though I know that
there is. So I'll find something three
days in to call Harry with. I'm like, hey, bud, how's this
going? He's like, it's good, man.
Like, go. Are you having fun on vacation?
Like, yeah, yeah, I mean, I am but, but, but what are we going

(41:05):
to do when we get back? You know what I'm saying?
It's like if I can see any of the productivity wheel starting
to slow, it's almost like this fear of irrelevance creeps in
and then this fear of, well, shoot, everybody else is on the
road right now. But I'm I'm with my family on
the 4th of July. Maybe I'm doing something wrong.
Like, should I be out there grinding?
Should I be out there doing that?

(41:26):
And I think the, the main question I get asked all the
time is like, how do you do the family, the, the work life
balance thing? I don't actually, I don't know
that I believe in work, like work life balance.
Because I think if you're, if you do balance, then you're
actually doing this at 50%, You're doing this at 50%.
And I feel like I've said this afew times, but like wherever you
are, give that 100%. Because when the other things

(41:47):
start to creep into the, to the place that you're at all the
sudden that 100% goes down to 80and then to 60.
You know what I'm saying? My friend text me the other day
and he was like, man, I've got abrand new baby.
I'm about to go on the road. I'm feeling some pretty immense
dad guilt. You know, I was like, OK, I've
been there for 10 years. My, I said my encouragement to
you would be when you go on the road, obviously like check in

(42:11):
back at home, but like make sureyou're doing the road at 100%,
you know what I'm saying? But when you get to your front
door at your house, almost like a snake can shed its skin, shed
all ego, shed all pride and shedany amount of I'm A Celebrity at
the door because that is not welcome.

(42:32):
And your, your, your kids don't need you to be a celebrity at
home. Your wife does not need you to
be a celebrity at home. Your wife needs a man and a
husband and a father. You know what I'm saying?
But it's so easy because of the daggum this that's just always
right there. And you're just eating dinner
and you're kind of like your kids talking to you for 20
minutes and you're like, what would you say?

(42:52):
You know what I'm saying? My wife says that to me all the
time. She's like, baby, they don't,
they don't need you to take themto Disney World.
They just need to see your eyes when you talk.
And that hit me like a ton of bricks.
That was said to me last week islike, they just need to see your
eyes when you talk. You know what I mean?
We're right in the middle of that challenge that we're trying
to do. Vanessa and I, we're very much,

(43:12):
she said a lot there and we're very much wired like you guys.
That's what makes it. We all did.
When we get together scupples, we just laugh at each other
because my wife is really just naturally funny, just the way
she tries to survive the movie about the world.
I'm visioning it right. Now she does a Vanessa, we call
it, but she's also got ironically when like when we've
been on a couple trips together,Lauren and I are kind of wired

(43:35):
similarly in a lot of ways. And so we'll that's how we all
tripped into horses together is where where where we were in
Wyoming at what's the big festival out there?
You had Yeah, we were frontier days and we, we before y'all
were even up, we went walking out and came home with horses
and and A and a Burrow, Daisy and Petunia and and then the
rest of the city. Now we've got several probably

(43:55):
more than both of us need. We started out by saying when we
get to ride horses again, I hopesoon, but she we are constantly
doing that dance. And one of the challenges we've
got in our house right now is ifeither of us speak to each other
or if a kid speaks to us, we immediately make eye contact and
put that down immediately. Not and we're trying to treat

(44:17):
teach them to do it too, becauseI noticed that we kept trying to
tell them, you know, to get off the pad or to get off the screen
when we're saying, Hey, dinner'sabout right here.
What would you like for dinner? Or what was?
And it's, it's never a, it's a, it's a distracted answer.
And so you get a very fragmentedthought process.
And I said, well, we're not really mirroring what we're
asking them to do. And the minute they, they say

(44:38):
our name, if we're on this, it goes down.
We've been trying it for a couple weeks.
It's been amazing. And something else you said too,
I think when you talked about what kids and I think, you know,
I know we're we're camped out onparenting, but this really
applies, I think, to all human relationships.
We all want to be noticed and seen and valued by the people in
front of us, even if it's a micro meaning that they give us

(45:00):
by giving us eye contact and presence.
We all want to be heard. I'm, I coached my Mavericks
basketball team in the fall of last year, had a ball and now
I'm doing flag football and thishas become the flag football is
a lot more challenging because there's a lot more moving
pieces. It's more kids to coach.
And I've noticed that, you know,all of them also are actively

(45:22):
plugged into the distraction machine like we are.
So they're watching, you know, on the Youtubes and kids
Youtubes flag football. So they're getting an image of
what they should be doing and how they should be playing by
watching what other people are doing.
And then they come into the huddle and they're like, if they
don't, if they're not the primary focus of that, that

(45:44):
moment like I'm open, I'm open, I'm open, I need to pass.
Can I play a different position then?
They don't feel seen, right? And so I don't have 7 kids in a
huddle. I got 7 coaches in a huddle,
Yeah. And I've, I've been trying to
figure out how can I, and I've, I've tried the, the direct
discipline approach. It was like, it's kind of like
the shut up and listen coach, a coach would do.

(46:05):
It's like, if you want to stop playing for you play for we.
And I'm trying to teach them allthat.
It's going right over their head.
And I, I shifted the focus last week and I started realizing
what if I beat them to the punch?
They're over here basically a hundred ways from yesterday
asking to be seen, probably not even by me, by their parents on
the sideline if they catch a pass.
But it's highly distracted in the huddle 'cause we can't get a

(46:26):
team together if everybody's trying to be an I.
And I thought, what if I beat them?
And every time I notice something about every one of
them and give them a micro moment before they ask me a
question. Hard to do, but it seems to be
you know, I've seemed to have a little traction and success with
it in the first week I've tried it and it's kind of goes like
this. I really noticed you ran a great
pattern at a time. Well done.

(46:46):
You really hustled back to the huddle.
Well done. I noticed you encourage your
teammate really well done. And it and the questions will go
like this to this because I've actually acknowledged them in
real time. Now, is it sustainable for the
long haul? I don't think so.
At some point we'll have to flipit into hey, you just need to
listen in this. It's what you're here for.
But for now, we're up against this attempt, this crisis and
deficit of attention. Like our attention is so divided

(47:10):
and so distracted. It's very difficult.
And I think it's one of the morechallenging times in history to
raise a kid 100%. And, and I'm I welcome the
challenge, but part of the biggest part of the challenge
for me and what I'd say, what breaks my heart.
And I was going to ask you that question next, because I think
you get a lot of good insight that's relatable for parenting
in that last segue. But I my heart breaks a lot.

(47:34):
And I think that's one of the reasons I've been avoiding.
I had this a different intimate relationship with my daughter
than I do my son. And I know you're, you know,
just, you know, not far into having a son, but my heart
breaks more with my daughter when I when I see her get
dismissed or I see her have a school worry or not be plugged
in. It's just, it just breaks my

(47:55):
heart. And often I move too quick to
fix it in empathy versus lettingher, empowering her to be able
to make one of those decisions. And I wonder, with your kids, as
a father so far, what breaks your heart the most?
Yeah, I mean, probably what you just said of, you know, when

(48:22):
maybe when a kid comes home and says, well, I know that there
was a few people invited to thisthing that I wasn't invited by.
That breaks my heart, you know what I mean?
And and I don't know why, but, but maybe I look back into like
my childhood or middle school and it's just like we, me and

(48:43):
you have experienced that feeling of rejection before, you
know what I'm saying? Like for me, I don't think I
ever broke up with a girl. I think I've always got broken
up with and when you, when you, when you kind of feel that
rejection from, you know, 4th grade, 5th grade, 6th grade,
like it's how, how do you deal with it?

(49:03):
And then like what you were saying, like, how do you parent
that? You know what I mean?
What are you, what are you supposed to say?
And I really don't know the answer to that except for to
tell them what, what you see in them.
But I was going to go back to something that you said earlier
to try to help answer this question.
But like when you're talking about encouraging the team,

(49:25):
like, hey, I saw that pass. It was great.
And I saw this play something that a counselor of mine said to
me last week. They said, how do you know
you're a great father? That was the that was the
question. You've been asked that question
before. Not like that.
That's a great way. To how do you can you tell me
how you know you're a great father and kind of just
reverting all the way back to the beginning about golf.

(49:48):
It's like for some reason I havethe ability to only I can't even
answer that question because I only want to go to the ways that
I'm not. Does it make sense?
She asked me how am I great father?
And I said, well, this morning Iwasn't, she was like, that's not
what I asked you. You know, she's like, how do you
know your great father? And so when you start thinking
about encouraging your kids, it's like how, how, how, how do

(50:12):
you encourage your kids when youdon't even know how to like
encourage you? Does that make sense?
I heard a pastor say it one time, you know, love your
neighbor as yourself. What if you don't love yourself
that well, you know what I mean?How are you supposed to love
your neighbor if you don't even know how to love yourself?
You know, So I think to get to where your question is, it's

(50:33):
like if you as a parent are not also doing like sort of active
work on your, and I'm not sayingyou got to go to counseling, but
if you're not at least asking your spouse these questions or
your dearest friend, these friends these questions of like,
Hey, how do you, how do you see me as a good dad?
How do you see me as a good husband?
How do you see me as a good friend?
You know what I mean? All of a sudden you can actually
start seeing the ways that are that you're blinded by.

(50:55):
And so I think kids sort of, youknow, if they're sort of a
shadow of you in some ways and you're watching them how they
deal with rejection. It's actually just how you're
dealing with rejection. You just sort of self shame or
like talk to yourself like, yeah, I, I'm not cool enough.
I'm not good enough to go to this party.
I'm not, I'm not cool enough to make that sports team.
You know what I'm saying? They're going to sort of believe

(51:15):
that about themselves and they're going to carry it to
when they're 364656. And so I think they need to see
you how you deal with failure, how you deal with rejection.
If it's in a positive way, then they're going to take those
moments of the things that breakyour heart and me be like, hey,
you know what, it's OK. You know what I mean?
It's OK because I think you are incredible and here's how I

(51:37):
think you're incredible. And I think once they start
believing that about themselves,that they actually are kind,
they are funny, they are athletic, they are all these
things, all the sudden that squad that they weren't invited
into, it makes them kind of go, alright, maybe not right now,
you know what I mean? Maybe there's a different squad
that I'm supposed to be a part of, or maybe I'm supposed to
bring these 4 squads in to the middle to where there is no sort

(52:01):
of click. You know what I'm saying?
I've never been asked that question before.
What breaks my heart? But I guess that's the best way
that I can kind of sum that up so.
Well, I, I, you kind of stumped me a little bit because I
immediately in my mind went to when you said, how do you know
your great father what your counselor asked you?

(52:21):
I, I started immediately trying to answer.
It made me hard to really be present listening because I was
like, how would I answer that ifit were reverse engineer?
Because I wanted to put myself in your shoes to see if I would
struggle with the response. Did you did you get to an
answer? She had to take me there.
That's what's really sad. Would you be open to taking us
there? I mean, yeah, she started, she

(52:43):
started asking me a list of questions that like I had to
answer sort of yes or no to, youknow what I mean?
She was like, what do they do? They miss you when you leave.
I was like, yeah, bad, you know?So to be missed to.
Be missed means that obviously there's something in you that
they love and that they miss. I've never thought about it like
that I I I think about being a great dad is here are the things

(53:04):
that I do I make breakfast, I take you to sports, I buy you
new shoes. I get you a toothbrush when
you've lost yours. I, you know what I'm saying,
that list makes no difference inmy opinion, to a kid.
Like they, they don't even know that they need those things, but
they're just sort of there because I think a good parent
knows when to come in and be like, oh, you're hungry, I will

(53:27):
give you food, you're thirsty, I'll give you water.
Like those are sort of basic needs.
But it really that broke my heart.
Like the genuinely that I couldn't, I couldn't even list
three ways that I myself thoughtI was a great father.
And so anyway, she started going, do they miss you when you
leave? Like, yes, she goes when you

(53:47):
when they go to bed. Are are you the one that like to
who tucks the kids in? I'm like they always ask for me
to tuck them in. And she was like, does that mean
that they love you? I'm like, yeah, you know what I
mean? Like I don't think about that
type of stuff. But it sort of goes back to the
way that we talk about ourselvesor the way that, you know, I

(54:09):
mean, you talk about coaching, man, and I hate I'm not I don't
I'm not trying to pivot. I will come back here, but like
a coach, a great coach is such ahuge blessing in a kids life.
You know what I mean? Like I had coaches growing up
that just weren't the greatest, you know what I mean?
Like it was it was beat you down, beat you down, beat you
down. But then there was no, but hey,

(54:32):
get out there, you got this. There was none of that, you know
what I'm saying? And so, like, all I really knew
from growing up was like, OK, well, I just, I suck.
I'm a failure. If I go into the game, I will
mess it up. And if I mess it up, it's going
to be 10 times worse than it washad I not gone into the game.
So that's why when I played football, I tried to stay as far
away from the head coach as humanly possible because if he

(54:53):
saw me or if he didn't see me. He couldn't criticize you.
Or maybe he wouldn't put me in the game because if I go in the
game now I have the opportunity to fail.
Does that make sense? And you were trying to avoid
failure. I can't tell you how much that
has come into my parenting, being a husband in my career,

(55:14):
paralyzing in some senses. Even I would say it even comes
into your friendship. And comes in my friendship.
Because I remember when we were first starting to get to know
each other and you were like, I'm going to tell you up front,
I'm not a good friend. Yeah.
I'm like, wow, that's an interesting way to enter a
friendship. Yeah, for sure.
Because I've probably been told so.
I mean, my wife gets on me all the time.
She'll look at my phone sometimes, like, hey, can I

(55:35):
borrow your phone to call somebody?
And she'll start pulling up textmessages and be like, Hey, did
you respond to Miles? Hey, did you respond to Chad?
Hey, did you respond? I'm like, no.
And she's like, why? I'm like, I don't know, I read
it and then I, I responded in mybrain, but I didn't respond on
text. And she's like, Hey, from now
on, if someone texts you and youdon't have time to answer them,

(55:55):
can you just not open the text message?
And so like, that has been the way that I.
So anyway, I've had so many friends be like, well, T, you
know, TR ain't going to text youback.
TR probably won't call you. Back and the story you make up
about that is. I've sort of just labeled myself
as not a good friend. Like, not reliable, not
reliable. Yeah, yeah.

(56:16):
Or, or too busy or out. There's some way that I will
blame it on something. And so then for years I would
like. I remember I've had so many
friends that have come into my life ever from just being a dad
at school. I mean, you meet so many of the
dads at school and all this kindof stuff.
I remember there was one guy I'mreally dear friends with, but we
had introduced me to a guy and we started exchanging phone

(56:37):
numbers. And my buddy looked at this guy
and he said, careful, he probably won't text you back.
You know what I mean? And I know that he didn't mean
that maliciously, but that was two years ago.
And from that point I was like, OK, I refuse to be an unreliable
friend. Now.
I might be a friend that doesn'ttext you back for seven days,
but when I do, I'm going to really mean it when I call you

(57:00):
or text you back. When you said he didn't, he
probably didn't mean it maliciously.
How do you think you meant it? I think that he has probably
seen from experience of our friendship of, of what it is to
to be friends with me. You know what I'm saying?
Like there's so many times I rely.
There's, there's many days that I have this sort of like, it's
not like a victim mentality, butit's like y'all could never

(57:21):
understand how busy I am. Does that make sense?
And I'm sitting here talking to a, a global CEO of a company.
He's like, you think I don't understand how busy you are.
Do you know what I mean? It really is what, what are you?
What are you carving out the time to do?
Like how much do your friendships actually mean to
you? You know what I'm saying?
Because like I would say for thelast 10 years, I can honestly
say they didn't mean that much to me.

(57:42):
They they meant a lot to me whenI needed them.
You know what I mean? And I feel like God has done a
lot of moments like the moment Ijust described of like, he
probably won't text you back. Those are like little convicting
moments for me of just like, what kind of friend are you?
Are you being how invested are you in certain lives?
Do you have too many friends? You know what I mean?
Because I really do think you have.

(58:04):
There's a guy that I worked withnamed Jack.
He's like a 7075 year old man, unbelievable life coach,
counselor. And he kind of describe this
like night's table. Have you heard of this sort of
mentality of like or like this round table is like you get 5
people at your round table. Your wife not included your,
your, your family not included Who, who, who's sitting here

(58:26):
filling these roles for you. And he describes like this
little box where it goes from like, you know, from like 0 to
like 20. You're just sort of like in kid
mode, like everything is sort ofa game.
You know, it's sort of you sort of are free.
And then you kind of advance into this like warrior phase,
which is like 20 into like 40, which is like you're grinding

(58:49):
ears. Like you've probably entered
into the profession that you're trying to be in.
You're, you're getting really good at it.
And then if you're lucky, you learn how to advance from the
warrior phase to the king kingship phase, more of like the
mentor phase, right? So you've, you've grinded now

(59:09):
you've gotten here. This is more like 40 to 60 years
old. And now you're still working
maybe, but you're also your mainpriority is like teaching these
warriors how to advance into this stage.
And if you're really lucky, you advance from kingship down to
sage. Sage is more like 70 to 80 if
you make it that long. And now you're probably not

(59:29):
really working, but you kind of get to relay all this wisdom
you're talking about to the kingship, the warrior and, and
the kid. You know what I'm saying?
So then he describes he's like different types of sectors of,
of friends, right? So you have your, it sounds
really, what am I trying to say?Maybe rude to like put your
friends into a category. But if you really look at your

(59:51):
friend list, you kind of know where these friends fall in.
So you have this a, A group and it's like, am I walking with
you? Are we actively talking at least
once a week? Are we getting together twice a
year to like do something meaningful with each other?
Are we deciding to do life with each other?
A group, right? B group.
Love you. Let's play golf.

(01:00:12):
Maybe we'll grab lunch twice a year, right?
Then your C group are more of just like acquaintances.
You see them at a game. You're like, what's up dude?
You know what I mean? And I think for so long I tried
to take my CB and A and push them all into my A, which you
know what I mean? I tried to be a really great
friend to like 50 people. I don't even have time to like

(01:00:36):
care that much for myself. Like, how am I going to care for
50 people? You know what I mean?
And so over the last two years, it has been just really
convicting to me, on top of being a great dad and a great
husband, to be a really intentional dear friend.
And I feel like my group has hadto shrink a lot in order for me
to be that for somebody else. Well, and I I think that's

(01:00:59):
highly relatable. You said a lot there, but I
wanted to take one take before Iand and well, I forget, but I'll
say to Bob Goff, who you know aswell as one of my dear friends,
and he has a similar metaphor. He's like you only fit eight
people around your bed if you'relucky enough for them to be
there when you die. He said eight, if they're
skinny, might be 7. And he and he said you really

(01:01:21):
need to hyper focus on your output and your time and and
where you allocate your time really matters.
And I think that's how I I do the same thing.
I'm I'm guilty of looking up every few years and sometimes
I'll be really acquaintance heavy and I'm not nurturing my
close, really anchored friendships.
But sometimes I think we make upa story about how our behavior
might be affecting people in these other groups.

(01:01:42):
And I think you were sensitive to even say it.
You pause and you're like, I, this might seem a little
insensitive. You can use that word, but I
think it's what you were doing because anytime you use the word
A-Team, B team, C team, you people think you think less than
has nothing to do with that. You can reverse engineer and say
the the close group is C&B&A, itdoesn't matter.
But I take that friend, 'cause Icould have very easily been in
that, in that friend's shoes where introducing you to another

(01:02:04):
person said, be careful. And there's one way to hear
that, which is, Dang, that's a pattern.
I suck. Or maybe that was an endearing
lob from a friend who says, look, he's not good at this
thing, but don't take that personal because he's a really
good guy for sure. Could that be true too?
Yes, two things can be true. Yeah, for.
Sure, because if you look at mine right now, well, let's

(01:02:27):
let's look at the red dots. It's a I don't even show you the
red dots when you're on Do Not Disturb.
There you go. That's fantastic.
I'm going to be fair. 181. 181 well done and well done.
I'm not necessarily proud of that and I don't show it to you
like a badge of honor. I'm just saying I don't think we

(01:02:49):
have the bandwidth to to really do that to keep up with that.
There are certain people that are so and I have so respected
they they working with with me and my company.
Without them I wouldn't have a company.
I've got people that help me around the home that without him
I wouldn't have any structure, he says.
I'm, I'm a bit of a creative. I'm a dreamer.
I think this way not, you know, this way I can turn that on, but

(01:03:12):
I'm not wired to keep up with that kind of volume.
And, and that doesn't make necessarily make me a bad
friend. I don't, I have you told me up
front and you told me in an unusual way because I didn't
take that you're bad friend. I just, I just took that your
time is incredibly limited. I don't have to look hard to see
that. So I've got to go into that and
think if I'm going to pursue a friendship with you, I've got to

(01:03:32):
have realistic expectations on all of it.
We may not get much time together.
I may not hear back from you. And if I can depersonalize that,
I know if I need to get you, I'll call you 4 times, right?
Hug you and you don't care. You've said that before.
You're like follow up. And I'm the same way.
And I tell my core people that and also especially tell my B
and my C community that. And they're in in the reality is

(01:03:53):
you can't cover all those bases.There's a people pleaser and you
and I both that I want everybodynot to get their feelings hurt
if they're in my proximity. And the reality is if people do
get their feelings hurt, that's as much their story and a growth
opportunity as it is mine. It's been a hard lesson for me
to digest, but I want you to hear that upfront.
Is that you when I want to circle back to one thing you

(01:04:15):
said too, which is because I kind of want to do this.
I want to see if you're up for it because you had a trial run
and you said she walked you through it and would you be
willing to to swing again if if I were and I'll be willing to do
the same. I'll answer that question and I
want to, before you do, I want to give you 11 ulterior take
because I think you minimized the food, water, shelter 'cause

(01:04:41):
you were like, well, that didn'tcount.
That's kind of what dads are supposed to do.
And let me tell you, I see two, yeah, I see 2 or 3000 people a
year, successful people in their20s, thirties, 40s, fifties, who
did not have those bases covered, basic.
And it wasn't even if they grew up in abusive homes.
It was just certain bases that got neglected.

(01:05:02):
And it turns out those were the foundational elements.
It was the time it was showing up to cook breakfast and said to
me, I almost put those at if youdo that, you're kicking butt
right as as a dad. So I I give that to you before
we refresh the question. I appreciate that.
Would you give it another try? Of how do I know I'm a great
father? It's funny the feeling I get in

(01:05:22):
my gut even when you ask me thatbecause this is like the second
now this is Round 2 of this. And it's almost like there's a
part of me that's not willing tobelieve that I am in some ways.
Like I know that I am like at mycore, I know that I'm a great
father. And I'm not sure what it is
inside of me that only likes to list my flaws before I list the
ways that I feel like I am good.Because it almost brings the
sense of pride to me in a way. Like if someone like I'm such a

(01:05:46):
great minimizer of anything and I don't, I feel like, are you
the same? Are you similar to?
That I can be for sure. I've got that gear.
I'm just going to bring up an example.
This was yesterday at a I had a volleyball tournament.
People from all over the Southeast come to Nashville for
these volleyball tournaments. And this, this dad walked up and

(01:06:06):
this mom with their daughter andthey had been to a show of mine
last year. And the dad walks up and he's
like, hey, buddy, like my, my daughter would love to take a
picture with you. She just thinks that you are the
best. She's she's your favorite
artist. And literally what I said back,
I said, really, why? In a little bit of disbelief.

(01:06:26):
And she was shocked that I said that, you know what I'm saying?
I was like, there's I was like, I literally went on to say
there's so many better. You should, there's so many
better artists. Basically.
I couldn't even take her compliment, you know what I
mean? And he was just like, and and
and I said, yeah, you know, juststarted just continuing to
spiral down this like downplay of myself, like you're not
you're not good. Like you haven't you haven't

(01:06:48):
made people's nights super enjoyable.
Whatever. They're just saying that to be
nice. Whatever in this girl's, they're
like, no, no, like it was the best show I've ever seen in my
life. And I felt super uncomfortable,
like super awkward, you know what I'm saying?
And there's something about likeif I can just talk myself down
enough, then when something doesn't happen how I think it

(01:07:09):
should happen, then I've alreadyI've already prepared myself for
it not to be great. So it makes sense, which is so
it's so unfortunate, man. Like some, some of the work that
that I've been doing with with Lauren recently has been this
like, I'm not a liar. I hate to lie and I hate being
lied to, But I have found myselfin this pattern of even on the

(01:07:32):
Super, super small stuff of like, I'm telling you the truth
and I'm not giving you the wholetruth.
Honestly, just to like to not engage in any kind of
confrontation, if that makes anysense.
You know what I mean? Like I'm trying to think of an
example, but our our counselor base, like could you get into a
pattern where you like, let's goback to golf.

(01:07:55):
If I'm trying to learn how to hit a draw, I have to
overcorrect my inside to out path.
And I might send a few far right.
But once I finally come to that sweet spot from over
exaggerating, now I'll find thatsweet spot.
That is how I have to do everything in life.
I have to overcorrect to find the middle ground.
And so she was like for the next6 months.

(01:08:16):
Can you just commit to like overly telling the truth, like
overly stating what's on your mind?
She said. Because once you get into the
state of that, because like there's so many times where
Lauren's like, I just don't knowwhat you think.
And then we can get into a wholeof the thing of like how I don't
love to make decisions for my girls.
I don't love to make decision about where we're going to eat.

(01:08:38):
I don't like to make any decision because if my decision
is wrong, who's to blame for that?
Me, you know what I'm saying? So it could be a something as
simple as like where we going onvacation this summer.
And even though I know that my wife wants to go to a place that
I really do not like at all. And so now I'm trying to work on

(01:09:00):
saying, hey, I would love to notgo there.
Where do you want to go? Well, I don't really know just
yet, but I know that I don't want to go there.
That makes sense. Does it ever?
Because my wife is such a a St. in chaos and I'm such not a St.
in chaos, I I will choose anything else than to be put in

(01:09:21):
more of a form of heat exhaustion.
I'm not sure and sweat I can make a decision right now, but I
can identify what would be a badone.
Yes. And so that is where I'm I'm
getting to him. I'm going back to the question
of how I'm a good father. I don't even know how I got on
that tangent. I'm so sorry.
OK, I'm going to, I'm going to steal yours and say I provide

(01:09:41):
for them. I send them to a grade school.
I put them in all the sports they want to be in, which we're
working on that. I think we just need to do 1
sport per season because it's insane.
I actively help them on their walk with Jesus.
I read the scripture to them every night before they go to
bed. When they see me come into the

(01:10:02):
kitchen in the mornings, my goalis that they the first thing
they see is, is my Bible open onthe kitchen counter?
I feel like those are ways that I'm trying to actively like to
be a great dad. I see how hard this is.
When you get past the first list.

(01:10:24):
This is a very awkward moment, the podcast.
Not for me. I'm locked in man.
I've told I couldn't be more proud of you leaning into this
lane because I know it is uncomfortable.
I do, I build them up. I overly build them up because I
don't think I was built up enough, at least by coaches.
And so I I feel like I'm trying to give them that, that

(01:10:47):
positivity in home of going hey,like I have found myself walking
to the dugout after every time Ada James strikes out a
softball. And I'm like, hey, what did I
ask you to do? She's like, you asked me to
swing as hard as I could and I said and did you?
And she's like, yeah, but I still struck out.
And I'm like, well, so did Babe Ruth.
And. She's like, who's Babe Ruth?
And I'm like, watch The Sandlot,you know, but I'm just like,

(01:11:10):
hey, the good news about this isyou going to go do it again in
10 minutes? You know what I'm saying?
And so I do feel like, I encourage, I feel like I build
up. I, I try to tell them that I
think that they have what it takes.
I laugh with them, not as much as I should, but I laugh.
I laugh with them. I play with them not as much as

(01:11:31):
I should, but I do play with them Also feel like I'm giving
them the the, the right path of like what it means to work hard.
I know they see me leave a lot, but it is my job to come back
into that door and then be like,how was it?
Maybe like it was awesome. I love what I do for a living
because I think it's super important for them to know that

(01:11:51):
your dad can go to work and comehome.
And yeah, you might have some bad days, but the fact that your
dad dreamed and worked, worked hard, he he gets to do his dream
for a living. That's.
So good, you know what I mean. It's not I have to go to.
Work. It's not I have to go.
To work. There are some days where you
just got to go. I don't care what job you do.
There are days you love and there's days you can't stand.
But. Planting a seed that I'm

(01:12:12):
choosing something that I love. Yeah, exactly.
Gosh, I've listed listed 10. Now is it your turn?
Yeah, I'm ready. OK, before, before I jump in, I
just want to draw a point, whichis I notice it's not that you
can't identify and, and I, and, and I so appreciate you being
willing to be awkward with me because if we both were on here

(01:12:34):
and it's like, here's the 10 points, you know, give them the
guru version. I don't think people learn
enough from that. I don't like, I'm not looking
for an expert to tell me the three steps of parenting because
it just seems out of touch a little bit.
I, I gained from it. We'll probably quote a lot of
those people today, but I, it, to me, it's the uncomfortable
part. It's the awkward part that I'm
like, Oh my gosh, I can relate to that so much.
And if he can do it, I can give it a go to because I think

(01:12:57):
sometimes we, and I've been guilty of it too, we attach a
story and therefore we attach meaning to certain things that
are a little more complex and nuanced than we think.
And critical thinkers, often. I'm saying this to all of us
because I think you and I both are critical thinkers, which is
one of our greatest gifts and our greatest burdens.
If we're not careful, we can gettrapped in a certain line of
thought and not see the color and everything becomes black and

(01:13:20):
white. For sure.
In your case, you started off bysaying, here's the areas I need
to improve in. Now you could say, see, I did it
again, or you could, I could sayhumble.
You're very humble, father, you're very self aware that you
would start by saying, here's the areas I need to improve in.
Two ways to look at that. One of them is and the other one

(01:13:41):
is, huh, that's really cool thatyou didn't start off with your
highlight reel. You started off, So what if we
could reattach certain meanings or get the nuance in there, and
then maybe we develop a different relationship with the
pressure underneath that. Another really important thing
you did that I think is superhuman, I think all of us,
including me, can learn from, and I'm glad you went first
because it's going to make it easier for me to answer is you.

(01:14:02):
You. My work often requires pattern
recognition because I'm helping people unlock stuck elements of
their story that might be holding them back in some area
of their lives and relationships, vocations,
whatever it might be. Faith, you know, just helping
people try to ground themselves spiritually and emotionally.
Well, that requires us to identify certain patterns and to
identify a pattern that is current.

(01:14:23):
It also requires us to connect dots going back.
I'm sorry, collect dots going back so that we can connect them
in real time. I'll watch you.
It's one of my favorite things about the way you think is I'll
watch you go back and collect the coaching dot and be like,
man, I got hyper criticized in aseason of life.
And then all the sudden the restof us that are listening to you,
it's like, well, it makes total sense why you'd be pretty

(01:14:45):
critical now. Yeah, for sure.
The why you went back and you excavated the why and you
brought it to real time. All of us.
I want you to say that if you'relistening to this, that's such
an important thing to do. And often you think you got to
be in some kind of sophisticatedcounseling or psychotherapy to
do it. Don't want to minimize or
discount my profession because Ithink there are people really
trained with cool models to to make that easier for you to do.
And there's the buddy version where we can sit here and have a

(01:15:08):
thoughtful conversation without a stopwatch and we got somewhere
else to be. We didn't have an agenda sitting
down. I didn't think I didn't sit down
with you. This was a lot easier other
people that would give me their time and maybe I'm sorry to say
this in front of your team. I didn't think what do we got to
promote today? You know what?
And not that we I don't want youto sell more concert tickets and
more music, but I had this weirdtheory.

(01:15:28):
I think when people really know a human, they want to be around
a human, they want to be drawn to a human and it's I, I, we'll
get to the music, but for now, it's like I, I just have so much
respect for that process. You went to the wild.
You connected dots and you showed up humble and then you
listed the, the, some of the things that I think are really
important. I appreciate you pushing
through. So back to me.

(01:15:50):
Both of us are great deflectors too.
We're genius at it. I'm not there, but let me talk
about you some more. It's not going to avoid talking
about me. Damn it.
I walked this into this. OK, All right.
I'm going to take the take that version, too.
Providing is wildly important tome.

(01:16:12):
I want to cook them breakfast, want to read them a book and
talk to them. And we have the opposite, which
makes sense because we said we have similarities and
differences in how we're wired. They do want Vanessa, they want
her at night, they want Mom at night.
But they also want me to pop in occasionally, read them a story.
Such sacred time when I get an opportunity to do it.
I spent a couple years where I wasn't as available on the

(01:16:35):
provider list and this year I'm retooling that.
So I, that's not about the RIP. You've heard me say this before,
it's about the repair. I'm repairing something this
year that I last two years I didn't do as well.
So I do think I, I have a general disposition towards
improvement and bettering myselfas a father.
I think that's a good skill. I try to be humble about my

(01:16:57):
shortcomings. I, I, I try to be present and
show up for them where I can. I'm very conscious of the time I
have away from them and if it I feel like it's gone too long or
it's starting to stretch into where it's straining or
stressing them, then I'm going to try to work my schedule where
I can prioritize that in time with them over everything else.

(01:17:21):
I think there's intimate momentsand experiences much like you
describe with making a meal likea, a meal.
I'm good at that. Like we did yesterday morning.
We were out at the farm and I'vebeen wanting to to do a little
bit more church activity on Sunday because we're not
formally in a church right now. And so we've been doing church
in the Creek and I've been setting up chairs in the Creek.

(01:17:44):
And it started out with just thefour of us and I would read, you
know, some scripture and then I would pray and then we'd sing 11
kind of kids song and then I would give a little message.
And then yesterday was the thirdtime we did it and there were 25
people there, other families, other friends.
And, and I thought, and I organically has just happened.

(01:18:04):
And, and we did this thing yesterday where everybody had a
rock and we talked about worry and, and I had some scriptures
that were tied to worry and anxiety.
And then everybody got to identify and there's 6784050
year olds in the circle. And so it was really fascinating
to try to figure out a message that an 8 year old could consume
that would also warm up the heart of a, a 40 year old father

(01:18:25):
or mother. And, and it, I won't get into
it, so I won't give the message away.
But we had, they got to throw rocks in the middle and attach a
meaning to the rock and it splashed everybody and it was
kind of fun. And we sent some flowers
floating downstream. And there was a gratitude moment
in that. And I thought at the end of
that, I'm good at that. I'm good at curating experiences
that that help ground people andpull meaning and value in.

(01:18:48):
And for so long I've hyper focused on how that benefits
people with my vocation. But right now, it's really
benefiting my family. And I think it's helping me be a
great dad for using my natural skill set, my creativity to
bring warmth into our environment.
I I love my kids. Since I'm surprised by the

(01:19:11):
emotion, I love him more than anything I've ever loved in my
entire life. And I think that makes me a good
father for sure. It's undisputable, it's
unconditional. I don't always get it right,
right. Sometimes I'm too critical,
sometimes I'm too this. But to my core, I, I, I am in
love with my kids. So I think those are some of the

(01:19:31):
things that make me a good father.
Absolutely. That's great.
You did. You did great.
But you know my challenge and, and maybe you can relate to this
because I saw you here too. It's like, how do you, well,
first our challenge was how do you start that?
And then it was how do you end it?
Because will there be enough foryou and I?
Right. Because you, when you started,

(01:19:52):
you were 30 seconds in and I waslike, and you were like, oh,
this is awkward. I don't know where I go from
here. And I'm like, that's enough.
For sure. Yeah, 100%.
And I think that's something both of us and all of all of you
that are listening and watching.I think we all could take a dose
of enough. And if there's anything we could
give our kids or the people thatwe love, or in your case, the

(01:20:13):
thousands of people that you influence through your art, it's
the more I can be grounded in who I am and the more I can be
reminded of the output that I give can be improved.
Totally. But almost days it's enough.
Yeah, for sure. Getting your kids to school
alive and breathing. Today, right?
A win, it's a win, it's a win. It's enough.

(01:20:35):
You know, something that I was thinking about when you were
saying all that. I can't remember what book this
is from. It may have been have you read
this book called Living Life Backwards?
No, but that's how I love the title.
It's unbelievable. It's about my favorite book in
the Bible is Ecclesiastes. It always has been.
And a lot of a lot of my friendsthat knew me well growing up,

(01:20:56):
like, of course, that's your favorite book.
It's the most pessimistic book in the Bible, you know.
But. When you but when you really get
into the weeds of Ecclesiastes, I mean Ecclesiastes chapter one
verse one, vanity, vanity. It's all vanity.
You know what I mean? And you could you get, if you
really just looked at that one word, meaningless.
Meaningless is all meaningless. If you look at that without an

(01:21:18):
internal perspective, it is a super pessimistic book, you know
what I'm saying? And there's a basically the
concept of the book is like, if you believe that the one, the
one thing that is for certain inyour life is your death, right?
Like me, and you think that we're going to leave today and
we're going to go home working about our day.
We have no idea what's going to happen on the car ride home.

(01:21:38):
Did you really do? I know that's so cliche to say,
but basically if you believe that the only thing for certain
in your life is your death and that does not change the way
that you Live Today, then you actually believe that you are
immortal, right? Well, my relationship with my
friends is going to get great when I'm 60.
My relationship with God is going to be awesome when I'm 75

(01:22:01):
and retired in a rocking chair. You know what I mean?
You, you don't know. You just don't know.
So it frames this whole thing oflike, what does it act like
though? The Tim McGraw song, What does
it actually mean to live like you're dying?
You know what I'm saying? You read so many stories of
people that were, you know, big time hustlers and made billions
and billions of dollars and theyget diagnosed with cancer or ALS

(01:22:21):
or, you know, whatever it may be.
And all the sudden their perspective is just like, gosh,
I don't have time. I don't have a lot of time, you
know what I mean? Because if, because if I were to
live every single day like I'm dying, Like what?
What are the things that you're not thinking about anymore?
You know what I'm saying? Is the one thing on your brain,
your 4-O1K if you knew you were going to die tomorrow?

(01:22:44):
Seriously. I'm asking.
Well, and, and he sent me because I, I, I too know that
there's a, there's a great studywhere a Hospice nurse wrote a
book and I can't remember the name of the book, but we'll put
it in the show notes. When I remembered it, something
like being with the dying or thedying or something, the gifts of
the dying. And, and same, same concept is

(01:23:05):
like the one thing they learned from all these people at the end
of life was, had very little to do with everything they
accomplished and what they earned.
And what they wanted more of waswhat we're doing, time,
relationships, connecting with the person in front of me, being
present with the person in frontof me, being connected to my
faith. What that's what you remember
most and it's what you regret most at the end of life.
Now I think what you're trying to walk me into to is if we know

(01:23:28):
that now, how could it influencethe way?
And why is it not changing us today?
Or is it? Or is it maybe, I don't know.
Anyway, I was going back to a thing when you're talking about
that, that like building these, these curated moments for your
family. And I think that's awesome.
But there's a there's a there's a line in that book.
And I'm sure it's a kind of an old, old kind of quote, but
like, it's like a cursed is the man who is a prophet overseas,

(01:23:53):
but a burden in his own home. You ever heard?
And I'm probably botching that, but it's like, you know, it.
Like my goal is that, and I'm stealing this from John Maxwell,
but my goal is to be loved and respected the most by the people
that know and love me the most. So it makes sense.
But think about like, my job is curating things for people.

(01:24:14):
You know what I mean? I'm curating a night of music
and trying to create the perfectmerchandise and the perfect
lighting and, and I'm, I'm, I'm spending so much energy trying
to do this. And these, this is for total
strangers. You know what I'm saying?
And I love them. I'm grateful for them.
They have given me a career beyond my wildest dreams.
But why like why don't, why isn't it my first initial

(01:24:36):
thought to take that back into my house to make sense?
The thought processes we put towards, you know, I don't know,
like there's I've heard so many people, and this is not a toot
of my own horn, but there's so many people that were like that
are like, you know, Thomas rest the nicest guy in country music,

(01:24:58):
or there's so many artist buddies of mine that are just
like, oh, well, when I'm in a bind, I call that dude, you know
what I mean? And I'm just like, maybe I am
that externally, but am I being that at home?
You know what? I.
Mean. Is that what you were asking me
when it's? Done, I mean kind of, but it's
like, you know, if you if I wereto ask the general population
what their view of me is, I could probably guess that

(01:25:21):
answer. But then it's then it's like you
could like, what would my wife say about me?
What would my kids say about me?Is that the same person?
I guess is the thing and and I try for it to be, you know what
I'm saying, but it's like the public is facing part of all
these things. And it's like, I think that's
why it's so hard for me to say am IA great dad, because if you

(01:25:41):
look at my Instagram page, I am,you know what I mean?
Like any interview that I do with any radio station,
streaming server, whatever it is, it's like, so you're you're
just the greatest dad in the world, dude.
Like you do like your Easter looks so awesome and all this
kind of stuff. Yeah.
You didn't see the 30 seconds before that picture was taken,
you know what I'm saying? When things were melting down.

(01:26:02):
When things were melting down and I think that I have even
gotten roped into this whole thing of like, you know, even 10
years ago is like Thomas Ray, Lauren or a couple goals, their
their marriage goals, their, their family goals are all these
things. And so you build this like
framework about yourself becauseof what the general population
says who you are, but they don'tthey really don't know you.

(01:26:23):
They just think that they know you based off of the things that
you have done and said and posted and all the stuff.
And then you hope that that remain is, is true.
I know that it is true. But there's, there's too often
too many times where like men being married is hard.
Being a father is hard. You know what I'm saying?

(01:26:43):
And I think sometimes we make itlook not by, by we, I mean the
general population, we make our lives look so dreamy and all
this kind of stuff. But like, really, no one
actually has any idea what's going on.
Like. Inside the walls, you know what
I'm saying, There's a. This show has been a little
vulnerable because when I set itup, I was like, all right, I'm

(01:27:03):
going to put my cards on the table.
And that's going to make me vulnerable because often I make
my living off of concepts peoplebuild a perception around
because of what I represent and what I study.
And you know, some of the benefit that my team has added
to people's lives that they mustthink I have every tool that we
know about really dialed in. And so it's, I think pastors
struggle with anybody that has apublic perception because you

(01:27:25):
have been willing to put your morals and values out on the
table publicly for people. And so and now you're trying to,
how do I live up to that? And in this perception, people
have accelerated. They didn't just read it,
they've accelerated it. And all I would say is I think
there's a opportunity there for both of us, but specifically for
you to have an AJ dugout moment for yourself.

(01:27:50):
Yeah. It's not the outcome, it's hey,
it rewarded the try. Totally.
You get to hit again. You get to hit again and that's
one thing I can say if if and I almost did this earlier, but I
could tell you and I were both so uncomfortable with doing that
that I was like, well, let's just move.
You know, we don't make it any more uncomfortable.
It is we often will do this in an on site setting as well.
When somebody gets to a part where they move through awkward

(01:28:13):
and they they lean into courage and say something that's not
easy to say, then we'll flip it over to the person that just
mirrored that and say add to it.And and both of us could have
done that with you could have easily given me a couple things.
You see me a parent and I probably would have given you
some of what you just described as the public perfection that
you kind of like, Yeah, but you don't know the the whole thing.

(01:28:34):
And that's what. And that's when I I I realized
that the brilliant moment where you go to the dugout after a
strikeout is exactly what most dads need.
Sure, Over and over and over again.
Most of us need grace. 100%. More than we need advice.
Especially with our own selves, to be able to give ourselves the
grace. Where do you think because I

(01:28:56):
and, and it's it's interesting for me to think, where do you
think? Because you just said, man, if
people, people don't often see it.
And sometimes, although I do think people look at you that
way and I think you've earned your reputation for sure.
I think it's, you know, it's I, I would affirm that you try to.
You're the most normal country star music artist I know.
I received that. And the other couple other guys

(01:29:18):
like that too. You would know them that I don't
think of you that way. And and, and then all of a
sudden we're sitting around a fire.
And even when you weirdly, even when you pick up a guitar and
you're singing one of your gazillion hits, 25 number ones
or whatever, I still don't thinkyou that way because you're
putting out a normal campfire sitting around a guy.
It's almost like you're singing somebody else's song like this

(01:29:38):
alter egos on the radio, dude. That is rare air.
That's hard to do. And it's something I think it's
a pair of shoes I think you should step into and be a little
proud of not and I would say I, I should Miramo and I should be
like, you know, you've, you've built a good reputation for
showing up in this town for people and they needed second
chances. And did I do it perfect every

(01:29:59):
time have a mess up of absolutely.
I will do that again. But I think we got to reward our
try. And if there's anything that
comes out of this conversation, I didn't know where we'd go
today. But I would say there's a whole
lot of people right now that I think are being hyper critical
on themselves because all we seeis 100 ways in every direction
that we're getting it wrong or not doing enough.
And at the end of the day, the one thing I think we want the

(01:30:20):
people we influence, whether you're a parent or a a teacher
or or a friend that the people we hope to influence, I think if
we could just give them a littlebit of relief and a little bit
of belief that they're enough. Yeah. 100% I.
Don't think we're ever going to have a problem.
And who could to where our ego gets so far in front of us that
we stopped working on ourselves?I agree.

(01:30:41):
I hope not. I hope not.
And I, and I think to sort of circle back to that, the, the
point that I was trying to make with you is like, I read some
kind of stat the other day of just like, why, why so many, you
know, pastors, children sort of like walk away from the faith.
And it goes back to that quote that I was telling you about.
It's like when you as a kid, like watch, you know, your

(01:31:02):
parent shoot. I mean, meet the needs of a
congregation first or meet the needs of, in my opinion, meet
the needs of an audience first or meet the needs of this or for
you to, you know, to, to super hone in on, you know, all the
people that you're helping and on site, but then there's
nothing left when you get back to the house.
Your kids don't really care. All the other people that you've

(01:31:23):
helped. I mean that they think it's
sweet and cool and kind, but if they didn't get, if they didn't
receive that same bit of encouragement and thought, then
what do they think of you? That really is the most
important. I've done it.
I said that's how I was describing.
I said the last two years I've just gone too much.
And I noticed that the words were the same.

(01:31:46):
I still had some really great things to say, some savvy
things. When I was, and I almost turned
it up. The way I justified it was like
when I am there, I'm going to bemore present than I've ever been
before. I'm going to make the time
count, which I think is an important, you know, it's a good
tool, but I realize it was just the time for sure.
They just needed time. The.
In between moments where I didn't have anything flashy to
say or the right parenting tool,they just needed my presence,

(01:32:08):
which is one of the hardest things to do when you're out
trying to make a living. That's right.
Which is be there for your kids 100%.
Do you feel? Is there a part of you, because
there's so much of you that's public, You and Lauren both, But
is there a part of you that feels misunderstood?
You know, like from a public perception?
Yeah, No, I don't feel misunderstood.
I think it's more so knowing like what you just said about

(01:32:33):
I've never really think of you as a celebrity.
I don't think of me as a celebrity, you know what I'm
saying? But the problem is, is like when
you go into these high pressure environments, you kind of have
to pretend that you are, even though you are one, you know
what I'm saying? There is a there is a, there is
a switch that flips to where you, I mean, yeah, the, the guy,
you know, sitting at duck camp playing acoustic guitar.

(01:32:56):
I would say that is me, you knowwhat I'm saying?
But like when I I feel like whenI step on stage, I try to, I try
to be as much me as possible. But there's also like this level
of like, I don't know, this level of like you got it.
You got to look the A Lister part, you got you got you got to
look the headliner part. You got to, you know, you got
to, yeah, your dad, but you got to look fit and you got to look

(01:33:18):
good and you got to do all thesethings.
And it's just like, man, but like, but that's not how I am at
all at home. Like, you know what I'm saying?
Like I went to a function last week and I don't even own it.
I don't even own a suit. That's normal.
The only suits I own have runs like rhinestones on them, you
know what I'm saying? Like, so I had to go to freaking
j.crew and get a normal wedding suit, you know what I'm saying?

(01:33:39):
Like I'm just a, I, I would say that I'm a very normal person
and I think that's the, the, thetoughest part of my job is like,
I, I don't want to make that a switch anymore.
Does it make sense? Like I, I want to know my gifts.
I want to know my talents so that I can drown out this noise
that, that you aren't enough because I think I am enough.
I've, I've made it to a point where the, the population has

(01:34:00):
spoken and said, we think you'repretty good at this.
You know what I'm saying? I just think I have to get to
the point where I believe it, you know what I mean?
And I'm not, I'm not saying thatI faked my way through my career
because it is, it is very genuine.
But it's, it is a thing where every time I walk on stage, I'm
like, do I deserve to be here? Like, am I supposed to be here?

(01:34:23):
Like, would they rather just have seen the the opener and
then gone home? Like, do I have a need to like
give them what I have? And the answer is yes, you know
what I'm saying? And I think, man, that's just
like continually reminding yourself that you are the way
that you are because of the things that you've been through
in your past. But that does not mean that you
have to stay that way until the until you die.
Well, and I'll, I'll say, you know, for I've been to quite a

(01:34:46):
few of your shows and I especially, I think two or three
years ago, I was out with you a handful of times.
And I think what I received in that moment, I said it's a
really joy filled fun show. It's a fun show, but you also do
some segways and you set up somethings and it's often in your
music where it's very vulnerableand you talk about that.

(01:35:07):
I, you can feel that you don't feel an expert.
You don't feel the I know you'vegot your 10,000 hours and you
can put on a show and hold your own with anybody.
You can own a stage. I've seen you embody it, I've
seen you crush it, but you don'tyou you can feel how how would I
describe it? The the same way you described
you show up on stage, I think isthe way a lot of us show up to
your concert. It's like, do we are we really

(01:35:30):
there? Is there still some part of us?
It's undone and then we get to all have an experience together.
And I think you kind of take people to to quote UN quote
church in a way. And, you know, and I think
that's your gifting. That's.
Good. There's part of me that I, I
hope you never fully, you know, close that door there, there's a
buzz about this. The the what's the the soccer

(01:35:52):
geodus, I'll say. It real geodus, part geodus.
Yeah, beautiful stadium, but there's you've got 1 coming up
there, right? There's already a huge buzz in
my circles about that. And these are people who know
you as the normal guy who've been there under, we're all
excited for sure that you're playing your hometown.
And I know it's one of the hardest shows to to play hardest
tickets to sell often, but that's why people are drawn to

(01:36:14):
you is not the perfect version. That's right.
It's the the the version that's humble enough to say I am on the
way, and I probably always will.Be always will be.
That's your gift if you think it's a superpower.
Yeah, man. And I think guys like me and you
and anybody that's listing it's,it's a constant set of repair
and reframe, repair and reframe.You've noticed several times
where you've helped walk me intoa corner that I've been like,

(01:36:34):
well, there's actually some nuance to that.
And if we looked at it this way,and one of my favorite things is
we get together and you said it when we first started, you said
we've never not had an interesting or deep
conversation. It usually always goes cool.
And it's usually because you always set the tone.
You're like, man, here's some things I'm cooking on in my
life. Some they're going well and some
I'd really like to get your thoughts on.
And then I'll do the same. I'll flip it.

(01:36:55):
And I hope, my hope you never lose that gear.
I hope we never lose that gear to be able to turn over the
rocks over here and take a look over here.
But I've noticed in the last year or two, like we were to a
hunting trip not too long ago, afew months ago in Louisiana, I
think, and, and we were talking,we got in a car and got, we got
to talking. And my, my, I didn't give you

(01:37:16):
advice, but my experience in that moment was not to tell you
to think differently about something.
It was to invite you to not think as much about it.
Do you remember that to help youkind of turn that off or turn
the volume down a little bit? Because again, I think a lot of
our superpowers, our ability to critically think and move and
nuance and pattern recognition, there's and, and that was me
saying it to myself often I'd I've got to, I've got to slow

(01:37:40):
down and turn it down or else I'm going to miss the reframe,
which is like, you know what, I'm a provider and that's a big
deal. And maybe that's enough for
today. It certainly is.
What are you? I know you've been in the studio
recently and but you've got to say, was it your your last one
was in 24 and but you've been working on some new stuff and I

(01:38:00):
know you've just had which I love Jordan.
He's one of my favorite people. I actually love that song.
It remind it, it was a little bit of what was Travis Tritt's
big song. It's a great day to be alive.
Oh, 100%. It feels like that, yeah, for
sure. I listened to it on the way.
I jammed it on the way in this morning.
And it's just a song about gratitude, not taking things for
granted, and I did. I love that you're peppering and
teasing us with some of your stuff before you, but I can't

(01:38:21):
wait to see what you're cooking on album wise.
Can you allude to any of what you've been writing?
And. Yeah, I've been, I guess I've
been writing for about a year and a half for this new project.
And it's a little, I would say. I mean, there's, there's still a
bunch of fun tunes on this project, but it's a little a
little heavier, I would say, content wise.
But from like a musicality standpoint.
My buddy Julian Benetta is producing this record and we

(01:38:45):
went and cut it like a band, which I have not done since
2012. I mean, your band's playing on
it. Some of my band is playing on
it. But what I mean by that is like
there was no like we were just, we just started from from
scratch and, and a lot of the time in Nashville today, if you
have a great demo, you'll just take pieces from the demo and
sort of added the demo and make it better.
And we just kind of said, man, like I played acoustic, I play

(01:39:07):
drums on some on some of the stuff.
It just, it is by far the most like organic album I've ever
made. And and I say this about every
record and I hope I say this till the day that I'm done doing
this, but it is it is by far my favorite record that I think I'm
making. So yeah, it's just it's a very,
very TR record. A lot, a lot of different
sounds, a lot of different kind of genres blended into one.

(01:39:29):
But it's it was it was written with a lot of intention and, and
with a lot of thought rather than I think just chasing this
like what? What's the hit?
Because I feel like I've lived alot of my career being like,
well, do we have the hit yet? And then I finally had to ask
myself the question, like, what is a hit in 2026?
You know what I mean? Is it, is it #1 on the radio?

(01:39:52):
Is it a song that streams 500 million times?
Like what is a hit now? Did it go viral on TikTok?
Is it trending on Instagram? Like there's so many ways to
determine a hit. And I think that for me on this
project, it's like, is it going to resonate with someone's soul?
I had AI do a lot of counseling.Can you tell I had I had a guy

(01:40:14):
tell me one time he's like, you have to start having multiple
bottom lines for what your version of success is.
And I love this and it's really hard for me to do.
But like 5 year ago me would have said that the only version
of success when the record comesout is that it sells every show
out and that the album sold a gajillion records.
Like that would have been the version of success, right?

(01:40:37):
And so he said, well, let's justlet's take that.
OK, that's one line. That's great.
Now give me four more that if that didn't happen, how can you
put your head on your pillow at night and say, well done, that
makes sense. And so for me, and I have to
remind myself that I believe this everyday because if I slip
into a different version of myself, I can easily go to

(01:40:58):
negativity. But let's just take shows for
example. Whereas 5 year ago me would have
only viewed success as there is not one single ticket left, I've
reframed that into OK I know that God put the right people at
the show tonight and there is noreason that they deserve an 80%
version of me. They get 100% version of me.

(01:41:19):
Even though it's not as many people as I wish I'd been there,
I now I still have the same opportunity I did.
If it was slam packed, there just might be a couple 1000 less
people. If I got, if I get to bring joy
to one person that night, like if I get to actually watch
someone look at me and smile or like hold up a sign and say this
is my first concert. I have to take that as my

(01:41:41):
version of success for the evening.
And I have to remind myself of that all day long.
That when I go to bed at night, I go, no, it was not sold out.
No, we did not have a record-breaking evening in merch
and no to this and this and this.
But this did happen. Therefore it was a success for
me. I don't even know how I got
there. Well, I want to, I want to say

(01:42:01):
this though, because I, I'm relating to it, AI have to do
the same thing because at the end of the day, where I spend my
vocation, there is a business element to it.
And you know, no money, no mission.
And so I have to pay attention to the metrics and P and LS in
the dot and, and we ebb and flowbased on the services we're
providing and what's happening. I've got a lot of overhead and a
lot of expense. I try to offer a really great

(01:42:23):
service and I get I can get pretty attached to that outcome
as a determined and sometimes I do forget that there's a human
being in front of me, even if there's only one human being in
front of me. And let's say my workshops
aren't full this week. How do I show up for the person
directly in front of me? Really, really.
Well, that's what I heard you were you were trying to reframe

(01:42:44):
and trying to do. And I think in a, in A, to me, I
can't, I love that I can't pin you down as an artist.
To me, that's what's fun about following your artistry is you
might do something that feels poppy.
You might do something hardcore country and everything in
between. And that does art to me
shouldn't have an agenda. And, and I realized the business

(01:43:05):
and the metrics around it often try to squeeze it into a formula
that works. And I know you know, the
formulas you've been around longenough to do all that, but you
kind of bucked the formula. And, and to me, I, I, I think
that probably makes it more fun and probably more sustainable,
even when it might push against the success of it. 100.
Percent. I'm going to go a little bit
this way and it might affect thesuccess.

(01:43:26):
Success is such an interesting marker.
Totally, And and I've had my what do you, I guess what I
would call them like my renegadeyears.
Those are the most fun years of my life when you know, I it's so
funny. You're talking about the the
throwing the rock into the river, like naming it anxiety or
or whatever. I remember my first trip to on
site. I did that and I remember it was

(01:43:49):
my my second album that came outand that was when, you know, die
happy man came out and crash andburn and and songs like that
that really kind of made me Elaine in in this in this
format. But I remember that record was
all over the place. There was die happy man and
crash and burn alone are Oh my gosh, they just they just did

(01:44:10):
this with each other. They there was no resemblance of
Sonic's like, is this the same guy that sings the the song and
the rest of the record was that way.
And I remember that was the year, like Instagram was like
really starting to become a thing and people, you know,
people's opinions were just, youknow, just getting meaner and
darker and, and, and more hateful.
And I've never really experienced much of that.

(01:44:30):
I just kind of had my Instagram and, you know, posted pictures
of whatever. And then that, you know, that in
particular years when it startedlike really take over our
format. And I remember when that record
came out, I'll never forget laying in my bed on the bus and
just the amount of comments thatwere just like, you're ruining
country music. We hate you.

(01:44:51):
You should just. I bet your dad would be so
unproud of this record. Like, I can't Unsee the
comments. And I just went into a freaking
yeah, just full on panic. I'm also having the most success
I've ever had in my life, but I can't I can't put this to the
side. And I remember my last day on

(01:45:13):
site, they made me there was like 1 in particular Instagram
handle that you just railed me everyday online.
I literally like my wife was with me and I wrote his
Instagram handle on this rock and I and I chunked it into the
river and that hilarious and it didn't really help much.
It has now like I, I still thinkabout that moment now and it's
taken me 789 years to like fullysort of OK, you know what I

(01:45:40):
mean? And I can honestly say now that
like, no, no one wants to be hated or ridiculed.
But I don't, I don't find my, I don't find my worth or do I
still like, do I still love my record because of because of
comments anymore? So I think it's great you're
doing what doing that with your kids because there's something
about the symbolism of sort of taking hatred or anxiety and as

(01:46:03):
something as sort of, you know, simple as riding on a rock and
chunking at the river. It's just kind of like it's an
active way of saying you don't have you don't have control over
me anymore. Like you don't you don't get to
speak into that part of me that I think is super beneficial for
men, as dumb as men may think that is really helped me.
So get a rock. Get our Let go of a rock, let go

(01:46:25):
of a. Rock.
Let go of a rock. Yeah, well, I do think, you
know, you talked earlier about coaches too, about how important
that can be, good or bad. For sure.
Something else we do that some people, and I usually don't get
into the context of some of the things we do with therapeutic
tools or change tools and on site because out of context they
seem a little weird. Like you'd toss in a rock into
the water until you realize thatit really wasn't meant to make

(01:46:47):
an immediate change for sure. It was meant to plant a seed
that you'd water, water, water. And then you wake up one day and
the harvest is there where it's like these comments don't hurt
as much as they. Used to, they still hurt.
Still human. They don't hurt as much as use.
Another thing we do in that coach lane is often there's, if
we're going to go excavate certain parts of our story, it's
very important that we do it with unconditional love as wind

(01:47:09):
behind ourselves. And often we don't have the
strength to carry that into our past.
And so we'll identify and try toassign somebody in our history
that what we'd call like an Angel, like a a person that was
an Angel in our life at some point.
What's fascinating is it it's often not who you think it was.
Usually it's an easy mom or dad,but it's often it was the coach

(01:47:30):
where it was the English teacheror it was the, and it's not that
mom and dad didn't get it right.It's just, it's back to well,
their food, water, shelter, their providers, That's what
they're supposed to do. But man, there was this one time
where I was feeling this social pressure, feeling completely
lost. Self esteem was in the gutter
and I got seen by a teacher at the right time.
And then we'll say, OK, let's, let's bring that person into the

(01:47:51):
room and let's say they're goingto walk with you on that
journey. And then we'll flip to them at
one point and say, what would they say right now?
And it's really powerful. So I would say, you know, older,
wiser TR looking back to youngerTR maybe at that season or pre
dad moments. What?
What do you, what kind of wisdomdo you say back to that part

(01:48:13):
now? Gosh, I don't know.
I feel like there's, I feel likethere's so many things.
I'm feeling that awkward thing again.
If 36 year old TR could go back and talk to I guess it would
have been 25 year old TR so a decade ago.

(01:48:39):
I don't know, like the the things that you're the things
that you're experiencing right now are not your are not your
identity. I don't know, because I think
you know, pre kid and you're kind of just like just married

(01:49:00):
like you, you do become you become sort of what you do.
You know what I mean? Like you are you are Thomas
Rhett, the singer, like you werea singer.
You're an entertainer, you know,but I don't think that 25 year
old TR would have thought he would have had five kids in 10
years. And I think kids have such a
funny way of like really, reallyhumbling you.

(01:49:22):
They are the most incredible gift on the planet.
But if you want to be humbled really fast, have a lot of kids
because the ego and the things that you feel like you are and
the things, the cool things thatyou get to do, they don't, they
don't matter to them, you know? And so when you walk in the door
and you're immediately met by, Hey, dad, make me a sandwich.

(01:49:45):
You know what I mean? And you're sitting there going,
how many people I just played tothis weekend?
They're like, don't care. Make me a sandwich.
You know what I mean? It's like you, you immediately
sort of understand who you are first and foremost.
And so like, whereas 10 years ago TR would have been like, for

(01:50:06):
sure, career first. I think that those priority
lists I have, I've sort of done like a flip flop like in 10
years. And I would say that being a,
being a father first, being a father and a husband first, I
don't, I don't know that 25 yearold TR would have, would have

(01:50:27):
fully understood that. And I think I had to go through
some pretty intense moments of, you know, a little bit of pain
and, and some sorrow to like fully sort of shed that part of
me off to be able to fully kind of grow into the person that
that I am today. And I feel like I just answered

(01:50:48):
that question so poorly because there there is not just one
thing I could go back and tell that person, I would have to, I
would have to spend a day with that with that guy.
I'd have to spend a week with that guy.
Two things can be true. You may feel like you summarized
10 years and didn't give near enough.

(01:51:08):
And I feel like if I were and I'm ten years ahead of you, so
if I were to go back 20 years, I'd probably say the same thing
20 years ago. Do I do 10 years ago?
And I bet you 10 years from now I'll say the same thing, which
is exactly what you said. Really.
Yeah, and often it's the wisdom is in the small things, which
it's, it's a, it's a general reminder that you are not what
you do. There is something greater than

(01:51:31):
you that loves you unconditionally and and you're
and you're enough where you are.And I can say that with
confidence with you. And, and, and I would say at the
conference. Is anybody out there listening?
Because that's usually the startof growth, change and healing
right there is, is we've got to plant a seed of belief.
And sometimes that's looking back and sometimes it's going
forward. Well, you've been super generous

(01:51:53):
with time. I, I could hang with you all
day. I wish we were going fishing or
golfing after this, but we will someday when life lets up a
little bit. But I don't, I want you to hear
this too. No matter what layer I'm in, I,
I don't have expectation becauseI, I know I could call you at
any point. And if I was in a bind, I know
you'd, you'd help me if I, I, I just just who you are.

(01:52:15):
And if you could do that for thethousands of people that are
quote UN quote fans or that follow your art, you do it for
all of them too, for sure. I just know that's who you are
here for. It's, it's one of the reasons
you're one of my favorite peopleis because you're always on the
hunt of trying to grow spiritually and grow
emotionally. I do think as your friend, you
give yourself way too hard of a time about that process.

(01:52:36):
And if there was anything I would encourage you on, I'll
always encourage you on is, is you have arrived.
You are where you are. You've earned your way here.
And I hope you live in a little bit more grace and walk a little
bit lighter with your own process.
Me too. And I'll commit to trying to do
the same. Come on.
Because I'm looking at a little bit younger version of exactly
what I do. It's the gift and the burden.
Last, last question I'll ask you, unless you've got anything

(01:52:58):
you want to share that you haven't yet is I haven't even
asked you about Brave. We're a few weeks into that.
I'm sure everybody's asking about Brave.
By the way, I adore the name, but maybe you can answer both in
one about Brave. But let's say Brave and, and
your girls 20-30 years from now,somebody's talking to one of

(01:53:21):
them and, and they say what? Tell me about your dad.
What are you most proud of aboutyour dad?
Another one is probably going tobe awkward to answer 'cause I
know you talk about yourself. Gosh, dude, this is like being
asked what do they have? What do you hope people share
about you at your funeral? You know, I was thinking about
that too the other day. It's like you really are what

(01:53:42):
people share about you at your funeral.
You ever thought about that? Whoa.
My stepdad's father passed away a couple weeks ago and we were
we were at the. I haven't been to a funeral in
like a decade, it seems, which Ifeel like I'm lucky to say that.
But there's this, there's this haunting feeling of watching

(01:54:04):
sort of, you know, someone get lowered into the ground because,
you know, the most non morbid way in the world that is
genuinely where we're all headedat some point, you know, And I
was just thinking about like, my, my stepdad's father was a
pastor for 50 years. Like did not miss a Sunday, you

(01:54:25):
know. But I think beyond that, like
the things that were shared about him, like, yeah, there
were some nice moments about himbeing a pastor, but it really
was that he was just a great, hewas a great friend.
He was a great father and he laughed a lot and he loved a
lot. And so it's like when you think
about what you want your kids tosay in 20 or 30 years, it kind
of a similar to that moment of what do you cope your family

(01:54:46):
says about you the day that you,you know that you passed.
But I would say for me, man, butbecause, because I do have the
opportunity to do it now, I, I, I really hope that they say my
dad, he wasn't at everything, but the things that he was at,
he was, he was really there, youknow what I'm saying?
My dad was there. My dad was there, Yeah.

(01:55:09):
My dad would do anything for me.My dad was never shocked by my
mistakes. That's a big one for me.
But yeah, I would say mostly that he that he was there, yeah.
Well, and and I I want to say that for all of you out there

(01:55:31):
that have listened to this conversation, thank you for
hanging with us, by the way. I was hopeful and this has
probably been my favorite one. We've had a lot of great
conversations and I knew I'd be talking to people in my lane
that are kind of quoting experts, you know, quoted some
today and I knew be talking to friends.
But to me, I believe when peopleget here and they are 100%

(01:55:54):
authentic with where they are ontheir story, I'm invited into
this belief that if they can have make an effort to to grow,
change and he'll be the best version of the self as a father,
as a friend, as a husband, then I can do the same thing for
sure. And I can say, buddy, you do
that really well. Thanks man you.
Chase congruence really well, and it's as evidence of how you
showed up today. You didn't show up like this

(01:56:15):
perfectly packaged guy that had all the right things to say.
You dropped a ton of wisdom. I was over here thinking, 'cause
I can hear often now on long form podcast, people watch clips
more than they do podcast. And so my team is always behind
me and and they've got this little pin that they click when
they're writing something, right?
I could hear him click and click, click, click, click,
click, click in the first I saw that.
What do we even clips? You drop a lot of wisdom, but

(01:56:37):
you, but again, you do it in such a human way.
And I think that's what people experience when they listen to
your music. I think what's the people
experience when they go see you at your shows and how many shows
you doing this year? It's not a ton.
Is it 25 or 30? Fortyish.
And then simple stuff. So, yeah, 3030 shows, yeah,
they're not far off from somebody who's been quite a few

(01:56:59):
times. I'm earnestly saying this.
I'm not because I don't. As I said, my agenda is not to
come and let me help you sell some tickets.
I'm genuinely saying it's one ofthe best experiences I have
because I'm up there experiencing a guy who feels so
approachable and so normal, which is rare to do as an
artist, for sure. So yeah, we can improve a lot.
We've identified that today, butyou, you, you've done a lot of

(01:57:20):
great things in this world and Ican't wait to see what's next
for you, especially with raisingthese babies. 100%.
Doing all the things that are going to continue on the career
is going to be the career. But I couldn't be more proud of
you, and I'm glad you shared some of your wisdom and
encouragement. Strength well, hey likewise
dude, thank you I haven't I haven't been on many podcasts in
my life. So thanks for thanks for opening
my, my window to this. And I'm sorry that it took a

(01:57:40):
year to get here, but I'm very grateful for you as a friend
and, and, and all the, and all the ways that you have genuinely
poured into to me and Lauren's life.
There's so many moments, even inmy family, I'm just like, well,
I remember when Miles said this to us and Miles introduces to
this person and you're, you're, you're a master connector.
I don't know if you know that ornot.

(01:58:01):
We have a great gift of connecting people.
And I do believe that that's a gift.
And there's so many people that I've met because of you, that
I'm, that I'm better for it because of that.
So thanks for having me on here and.
That we didn't even talk about Lauren, which I, I, I didn't
mean to not do that, but I, I adore.
That'll be all the comments. Well, I adore.
Well the reason so I I saw recently Annie, I love Annie.

(01:58:23):
She's all my dear friends. And she?
She was a guest on the show and I know you guys just were a
couple and I was like, oh, I should have done the couple, but
I thought I could talk to Laurenfor three hours alone, just
like, so I want to. Hopefully I'll get her as a
guest at some point too, becausewe got a lot to talk about.
But there's some really funny stories about she and I and
horses, and then you get in the picture.
That's one hobby that I have been roped into.

(01:58:45):
I did not choose the horse hobby, but I'm in.
I'm in the horse game so. Yeah, yeah.
Well, it was a delight to be with you, buddy.
Yeah, you too, buddy. Thanks.
That's human school. Keep showing up, keep getting
honest. If you like this episode and if
it was beneficial, if you don't mind leaving us a review, that
would really help us get more eyes and ears on our episode so

(01:59:06):
we can encourage more people. I'm Miles Ed Cox, and I'll see
you next time.

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Thomas Rhett: The Pressure to Get It "Right"

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