April 16, 2026 • 43 mins
What does it take to lead a storied sports franchise through change, rebuild trust with fans, and design a venue that feels unmistakably Dallas? In this special episode of Learning From Leaders, host Lili Clark is joined by Andrew Kaufmann, the host of The Strategerist Podcast, for a conversation with Rick Welts, CEO of the Dallas Mavericks. They explore the leadership lessons behind some of the biggest moments in modern basketball and business.
Rick shares his origin story as a ball boy for the Seattle SuperSonics, and how those locker-room lessons became a master class in team dynamics, culture, and performance. He reflects on what it means to steward a franchise’s history, strengthen community engagement, and pursue a bold vision for a new entertainment district anchored by a next-generation Dallas Mavericks arena.
The conversation also touches on leading through turbulent times, the fallout from the Luka Dončić trade, and earning back fan loyalty. Rick discusses the evolving expectations of sports partnerships, the Mavericks’ relationship with UT Southwestern, and why athlete mental health and storytelling matter more than ever. Finally, he looks back on mentors like David Stern and the intellectual curiosity that fueled decades of innovation across the NBA and WNBA.
Episode Details: Episode 3, Season 3
Hosts: Lili Clark | Vice Chair, The Cary Council; Senior Associate, LH Capital, Inc. / Lyda Hill Philanthropies – www.lydahillphilanthropies.org
Andrew Kaufmann | Vice President of Communications and Marketing, George W. Bush Presidential Center | Host, The Strategerist Podcast - www.bushcenter.org/podcast/the-strategerist
Guest: Rick Welts CEO, Dallas Mavericks
Producer: Dustin Magwire | Digital Media Senior Manager, Southwestern Medical Foundation – www.swmedical.org
Videography: Brazos Film & Video - www.brazosfilms.com
Disclaimer: The Southwestern Medical Foundation Podcast is intended solely for educational purposes. Nothing contained therein constitutes, nor should be interpreted as medical, healthcare, financial or legal advice. Southwestern Medical Foundation strives for accuracy in its publications, including the Podcast. However, due to the nature of the topics discussed, there frequently is not a clear-cut “right answer.” Consequently, Southwestern Medical Foundation cannot guarantee the accuracy or sufficiency of any information presented. The views of the hosts and guests are their own and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of their employers or affiliated organizations, nor Southwestern Medical Foundation, the University of Texas Southwestern Medical Center or the University of Texas System. The inclusion of any guest or mention of any product or service does not constitute an endorsement thereof, nor of any company, employer, or organization with which the guest, product, or service is affiliated.
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(00:00):
There are probably a few of us in here who can point to one day in their lives that changed
(00:03):
everything and I wouldn't be here if I hadn't had this particular day. So I grew up in Seattle,
Washington. We had a brand new NBA expansion franchise, Seattle Supersonics. I fell in love
with that team. It was the first professional team representing Seattle. The coolest kid at
Queen Anne High School was Earl Woodson. He was a ball boy for the Seattle Supersonics.
(00:24):
Earl, like, you've got to take me down and introduce me to whoever hires those ball kids.
And I scored the job. The elephant in the room, you touched on a little bit,
was the fallout from this Luka trade. You got to listen, right? You had people who were hurt,
people who were angry. The basketball gods work in incredible ways. We had a 1.8% chance
(00:47):
of winning the draft lottery. Magic happens and everything changes. What were the things that
you felt like you immediately recognized as, like, these are the cultural elements that we
need to keep going here? And what were the things that you thought, you know, this is something new
that I could introduce? Welcome to Learning from Leaders, a podcast from Southwestern Medical
(01:07):
Foundation, where we dive into a world of wisdom, mentorship, and innovation, exploring the insights
and life lessons of seasoned community and business leaders. I'm Michael McMahon, President
and CEO of Southwestern Medical Foundation. I invite you to subscribe now and join us on this
empowering journey of growth and leadership. Now, let's learn from the best and drive meaningful
(01:29):
change together. To the team here at the Southwest Medical Foundation, rolling out the red carpet
doesn't cover it. We've got a great relationship between the Bush Center and that organization. We
are so grateful for it. And Mike McMahon over there is about as good a dude as they come. So,
thank you guys for hosting us and being a part of this. And Lily, this is a pleasure. I work with
(01:53):
your dad, and so I'm excited to get to work with you a little bit now. So much fun. So, a long time
ago, I was probably about 35 or 36 when I realized I probably wasn't going to make it as an NBA point
guard. I thought I might still be able to make it as a backup at that point. And I realized that it
wasn't going to happen. And unfortunately, if it happens to a lot of us, sooner or later, we
(02:14):
realize that being on the court probably isn't going to happen. But the dream of sports is
sometimes still alive. And Rick, you've made quite a career by being in the front office. Can you
tell us about how that started and when you realized it probably wouldn't happen on the
court, but maybe it could happen in the front office? There are probably a few of us in here
(02:36):
can point to one day in their lives that changed everything. And I wouldn't be here if I hadn't
had this particular day. So, I grew up in Seattle, Washington. We had a brand new NBA expansion
franchise, the Seattle Supersonics. And I was immediately captivated. My dad and I,
that was kind of the currency of our relationship. We would go to games together.
(02:58):
From the time I could walk, UW football games, whatever it was. So, we started going to Sonics
games. And I fell in love with that team. It was the first professional team representing Seattle.
And I went to Queen Anne High School in Seattle. The coolest kid at Queen Anne High School was Earl
Woodson. Why was Earl the coolest kid? Because he was a ball boy for the Seattle Supersonics.
(03:21):
So, we hung out in the back of my English Lit class every day, and I'd get the scoop on all
my favorite players. And I lived for that. And Earl came in one day with a long face. He's like,
dude, what's wrong, man? He goes, my family's moving out of town. Earl, like, you got to take
(03:41):
me down and introduce me whoever hires those ball kids. And he did. And I scored the job. So, I get
to be talking to you today. Are the Supersonics coming back?
Fingers crossed. The NBA, as you know, has just initiated a process that we hope will result in
(04:04):
two new teams in Seattle and in Las Vegas. One of the great things that the NBA did
20 years ago when the team left was all the intellectual property stayed in Seattle. So,
the championship banner, the colors, the name of the team. So, hopefully in 2028,
we'll have a brand new Seattle Supersonics team. And in those early days, you must have had a real
(04:30):
work ethic. Are there habits that you picked up then that you still carry with you today?
You know, it sounds crazy, but when you're a 16, 17-year-old kid in a professional sports
locker room, a fly on the wall that nobody's paying attention to, there are really lessons
that I learned there that was like a master's course in professional sports, right? I could
(04:53):
see the interaction between players and coaches, doctors, media owners, and nobody paid any
attention to me. You know, when I was the guy who closed the locker room door for the pregame speech
could see how those things worked and sometimes how they didn't work. And it's such a delicate
balance that creates the atmosphere where teams can really be successful. And I rely on those
(05:18):
lessons every day. So, I think that's a perfect transition into when you first started as CEO of
the Mavs, when you're thinking about building that culture and developing that culture and
what we all know to be a very established brand, what were the things that you felt like you
immediately recognized as like, these are the cultural elements that we need to keep going here,
(05:39):
and what were the things that you thought, you know, this is something new that I could introduce?
So, I don't know how closely you follow the history of the Mavericks, but seven years or so
ago, a big, very public expose on the culture of the Mavericks that could not have been less
complimentary. It was really viewed as a very toxic culture in the organization. Mark Cuban hired
(06:04):
Cynt Marshall, a 25-year AT&T veteran, African-American female to come in and lead.
And I had the pleasure of meeting Cynt then, watched what had happened and what she did over
those seven years to restore the credibility of the Mavericks in this market is nothing short
(06:24):
of extraordinary. So, to be able to step into that role, I talk about big shoes, little feet,
you know, with Cynt, those are big shoes to step into. But from day one, it was, this is going to
be about honoring her and the legacy that she created here in community engagement, right?
(06:46):
And that is something that I think the Mavericks do as well as any team in sports, and it's
something that is my responsibility to continue the organization, keep doing. I will say, in the
time that Mark Cuban owned the team, he loved his basketball team, didn't spend as much time on the
business as you might have thought. So, there's really a business opportunity with the Mavericks
(07:11):
that hasn't been fully exploited. So, it's very possible to have both. You can be a great
business and you can continue that legacy of community engagement. So, that's my job now.
So, when you look back at those first few months, was there anything that you learned that really
surprised you?
Well, I got here January 1st, a year ago. 30 days later, we might have made a trade. I don't know if any of you have.
(07:36):
I found out at 11 o'clock at night when Patrick Dumont, yeah, I forgot to ask one question in the interview.
So, what I learned being a glass-half-full guy over that next 100 days was the depth of
connection and passion that Mavericks fans have for their team. Now, it wasn't always pretty
(07:58):
during that time, but it really told me that that exists and that can be
earned back. And I think that was the biggest lesson. It wasn't a surprise, but it really
reinforced what I sensed was out there.
And this town, it is committed to its sports. And I'm a lifelong Dallas guy.
(08:20):
We were lucky enough to talk to Dirk a couple weeks ago, and there is, I can think of few
people who deserve a statue more than that guy. And somehow, this German was able to
epitomize the city of Dallas. And you've said that we want the Mavericks to be really,
unmistakably Dallas. But what does that mean to you?
Well, looking at it from afar for a long time and now living here, I think
(08:45):
Dallas rewards innovation and risk-taking. And I think we're embarking on a
really interesting chapter in the Mavericks' lives. I use that phrase when we talk about
what we're going to talk about the arena, what we're going to build here. And I
don't want to build anything. I don't want to build Madison Square Garden. I don't
(09:09):
want to build Chase Center in San Francisco, the new Intuit Dome in LA. My hope is that
when each of you walks into that arena for the very first time, you say, wow, they get
Dallas. And that'll be a combination of things. That'll be the art that you see.
That will be the design of the building. That will be the social spaces that are created.
(09:30):
I don't know if you know that Dallas is kind of a social town. And I think we can do some
things kind of unique that haven't been done before. But that's the goal. We want people
to say this is a great expression of Dallas. And before we go too deep into the arena,
which I've got questions about the arena for sure, the Mavericks are such a part of this
(09:52):
community. But in your mind, what is the sports team being a part of the community look like?
And what's the Mavericks' plan to kind of stay involved there?
It's just an incredible privilege to have the platform that we have, right? It's the way our
players in particular touch a young audience is quite extraordinary compared to the other sports.
(10:15):
And it's such an outsized platform compared to really the size of the economic business that
we're in, right? And that comes with a responsibility and an opportunity. And that's
what every sports team should look at and see how they're using this incredible stage that we have
(10:36):
with these very influential people in our community to do good things for the people that
are the only reason we get to go to work in the morning. So I think it's the NBA. I'm very proud
of the NBA and its legacy of that. And I think that the Mavericks are a great example of it.
So now digging into the arena. So you have led various venue changes and development projects
(11:00):
with the Golden State Warriors and the Phoenix Suns. What do you think is going to kind of make
as the Mavs are in these discussions now? I'm curious what you think it will take to like
really get this venue and arena, right? And also what you think is really at stake,
both from the team perspective, but also the city perspective and the fan perspective.
(11:21):
Well, our lease expires at American Airlines in 2031. We want to be in a new building.
It's not just going to be an arena, number one. It's going to be a 50-acre entertainment district
that's anchored by an arena, but it's also going to have, you know, it's also going to have our
headquarters, our practice facility, hotels, plural, retail, residential. It's going to be a
(11:48):
changemaker for some part of the city. And we've said out loud that we want to be the team that
wears Dallas on their jerseys that plays in Dallas. So that's what we're really focused on
right now. What do we need? First of all, like we need a place, okay? It would be a really good
starting point. And we're hoping by this July to be able to tell everybody associated and interested
(12:14):
in the Mavericks where we're going to be. The city of Dallas has been super helpful in helping us
identify potential sites, not that many 50-acre sites in Dallas that would be the right location
for something like this. No secret, we're looking hard at downtown, you know, but it's not the only
place we could potentially be. You know, these things generate amazing development around them,
(12:41):
too. If we do, and we will do exactly what I said we're going to do, it really is a catalyst for
development way beyond just the project itself. So that's, I think, one of the great benefits.
I'm one of those people who, I guess I grew up in a way where sports teams really added to my
quality of life. I mean, going all the way back to those games with my dad in Seattle
(13:05):
in 1967, I was drawn to the game, but something different was happening there. Those 14,000 people
who didn't know each other had only one thing in common, which was their interest in that team.
It changed our community. It gave it, it was a point of pride. All of a sudden, we're listed in the
standings in the newspaper with Los Angeles and New York and Chicago. It was really a point of
(13:31):
pride, and it made our city better, and I think that's what these things do, and that's what we
have the opportunity to do here in Dallas. It's, you know, we got, the Bush Center got lucky. We
went to SMU, and they're like, here, sure, have 20 acres. We couldn't, we asked for 50. I guess
they didn't have it or something, but you maybe should try, maybe reach out to SMU, see if they've
got more acres. My tip, but in all seriousness, this is going to be a hard decision, and, you
(13:56):
know, that's where President Bush talks about decision-making often, and as a leader, how do
you approach a decision that is this complicated, has this many factors, is going to affect so many
people, both families going to games, as well as employment in the city? How do you weigh all these
things and come up with a one recommendation? Yeah, well, I think you listen to everybody.
(14:19):
I've been privileged to meet a lot of community leaders here, a lot of political leaders, a lot
of business leaders, and got a lot of wisdom from their experience here in Dallas and what their
view of the world is here and what we should be doing. I also think, just for me, kind of the way
I'm wired is that I like to reach out to people who I think could add value to decision-making.
(14:45):
The NBA has a really unique culture that way, very different from the other leagues in that,
you know, every day I'm talking to other executives at teams, CEOs, or presidents.
There's really nothing new in terms of a problem or an issue in our industry, and it doesn't mean
that, you know, when I reach out to somebody and ask, like, I know you faced this, what did you do
(15:08):
about it? It doesn't mean that you're going to do that, but it really informs your decision on how
to take others' experience in dealing with similar things and apply them to what you're doing,
and you weigh all that, and somebody's got to make the decision at the end, and that's my
responsibility on a lot of things. And, you know, I just think it's a process that if you're
disciplined about it, you, more times than not, will get to the right answer.
(15:31):
Have there been other arena projects that you've seen recently that really have inspired you and
made you really feel like, wow, that's something that really we should look at for Dallas?
So that's an unfair question, because seven years of my life was spent building Chase Center
in San Francisco. I think I'm probably here because Patrick Dumont, the owner of the Mavericks,
(15:52):
that's his favorite building. I was there last night for their game, flew back to Dallas this
morning. We're not going to build Chase Center, like I said, but I do think from a level of finish,
from a level of fan experience, you know, from the other things that are part of that project,
the restaurants, the open plazas, the gathering places, there's a lot of lessons to be learned
(16:16):
from any, like I'm a stadium and arena geek. Like I, if there's nothing I would rather do
than just walk around the stadium or walk around arena, because it doesn't matter how old it is,
doesn't matter what the sport is, you really do learn something, okay, that you hadn't seen before,
and I get inspired by that. I mean, think about, I don't know what the equivalent will be in your
life or yours, think about this opportunity to take everything you've learned about the business
(16:43):
you're in, for me, NBA basketball, and give it a one-of-a-kind physical form that's going to create
memories for families in North Dallas for generations to come. What a privilege and what
an opportunity. So we're going to get it right. We're going to take the best of what's been out
there, not copying anybody in particular, and hopefully add some innovations that haven't been
(17:06):
done before, and kind of take the technology a step further than any other team has taken it.
I know there are, do you look also at just other stadiums outside of basketball arenas? Do you look
at baseball stadiums? Do you look at football arenas? Absolutely. I mean, we, the battery,
Atlanta Braves development in Atlanta is a really great example of the kind of thing we would do.
(17:29):
Now, they did that in the suburbs, which is great. We'd like to, we want to do that in the city,
and I think basketball is a city game, and I think we like, you know, playing in the city.
So yeah, you can learn from, and all over the world, like I, you never go into a stadium and
arena where, like I said, you don't learn something new. Well, and the elephant in the room,
(17:52):
you touched on a little bit, was the fallout from this Luka trade, and as a leader, what was your
approach in trying to deal with what's a hard situation between the fans and the organization?
You got to listen, right? You had people who were hurt, people who were angry.
You really have to listen. You have to not be defensive. Like, you really have to
(18:15):
accept how people are feeling and give them a platform to be able to express that.
And then you got to figure out how to win back their trust and their loyalty, and the basketball
gods work in incredible ways. Exactly 100 days, not 99, not 101 days after that trade, I was the
(18:39):
only one from the organization who was sitting at our little table at the NBA draft lottery because
nobody else wanted to go. We had a 1.8% chance of winning the draft lottery. And, you know,
magic happens, and we have the opportunity to draft Cooper Flagg, and everything changes,
right? It's now the centerpiece of what the Mavericks are going to be moving forward.
(19:02):
A generational talent. The kid is barely 19 years old, and he's doing things that now he's
breaking records that LeBron James or Kobe Bryant did at his age. He's done things that no teenager
has ever done before, and he's an absolutely great kid from a great family. So, we're so blessed in
Dallas and at the Mavericks to be able to get this kid at this stage of his career. I've never seen
(19:26):
anything like it. 48th NBA season, you actually see incremental improvement every single game as
he figures out something new. And, you know, last week having a back-to-back 50 and 45 point games,
no teenager's ever done that in the history of the game. And he's ours, and he'll be the
centerpiece of what we're going to do going forward. I look around the room, and I'm like,
(19:49):
what was everybody here doing when they were 19? I know I was not scoring 50 in the NBA.
He's a little different. Yeah. Well, you all have clearly, no doubt, created so many memories for
Dallas families here and have been such an iconic brand for our city. And you've also been a great
partner to so many organizations around our city. Just last year, I think you all expanded your
(20:10):
partnership with UT Southwestern as the official medical provider for the Mavs. Could you talk
about that partnership and how you think it might, you know, serve the Mavs, but also the city
going forward? Yeah, it's been one of the great experiences I've had since I've been here to meet
administrators, doctors who are part of UT Southwestern. It is a gem in Dallas. Like,
(20:33):
there's really nothing like it, maybe nothing like it in the world. And, you know, they have taken
such an active role in engaging the community and being part of the community. So for us to be able
to do that, well, there is a benefit. Like, our players have the absolute best medical care in
the world, okay? That's a pretty good thing when you're a professional athlete. But we're
(20:56):
having conversations about where from here. No breaking news to report, but I do think, you know,
we're talking about how UT Southwestern could be integrated into this new project that we're doing.
Maybe a new medical facility, maybe a consumer-facing piece of that, in addition to
taking care of our athletes. So I'm just overwhelmed with the level of engagement and
(21:22):
competence and expertise that exists in that organization. We're super proud to be associated.
How do you think about when you were either forming a new partnership or expanding one,
like with UT Southwestern, how do you think about making sure that the partnership is something more
than kind of sponsorship dollars or a branding opportunity? Because to your point, these are
(21:43):
two incredibly special, I would say both of you all are gems of Dallas. How do you think about
really making sure that the partnership goes beyond kind of the sponsorship dollars?
Yeah, that's a great question. So that's actually the part of the business I grew up in. My first
job at the NBA, I was the very, 1982 was a very, this can sound crazy, 35th employee, number one,
(22:04):
1100 when I left, 17 years later, all over the world. But I was the very first person hired to
go out and try to convince marketing companies to invest dollars in the NBA. Sounds like the
easiest job in the world. I can't tell you what the NBA was like in 1982, it was a train wreck.
More talk about teams going out of business than expansion. First league tainted with
(22:29):
widespread accusations of drug use amongst its players. Very poorly run as a business.
I couldn't get an appointment. I moved from Seattle, New York City and go home in my little
Manhattan apartment and wonder like, what have I gotten myself into? This isn't what it was like
in Seattle when we won a championship. But I think it's really changed. Companies used to have sports
(22:53):
marketing budgets, okay, where they knew they were going to spend this much money in sports as part
of the marketing. That doesn't exist anymore. Bad news and good news. The good news is, if you create
programs that can actually touch their consumer in a way that helps their business, you really
have unlimited resources, unlimited ability to channel their marketing dollars into your
(23:15):
organization. So, it's so different than it was when I started where they worried about, you know,
what seats the CEO would have and what sign was going to be in the arena stadium. That doesn't
get you to first base anymore. You really have to be able to measure and deliver actual results that
justify these investments. And if you're honest partners and figuring that out along the way,
(23:39):
contract is great, but it's a starting point, not an ending point. And we're in the business of
renewing those, not just selling those. So, how you perform, what kind of partners you become,
how you solve companies' problems and using, again, the visibility we have as a sport,
that's what determines how successful you are. So, it's changed a lot, but I love where it is today.
(24:02):
And when you're looking at kind of back to the UT Southwestern piece, just generally,
as you're looking at kind of health and wellness related issues that the city of Dallas might face
or that your athletes might face, like what do you think are some interesting partnership concepts
that you might have top of mind? You know, we talked to UT Southwestern about this too. I
(24:22):
really think one of the great strides that professional sports have made is really on
dealing with mental health of athletes, right? It's like, especially in men's sports, this has
historically been this macho, nothing phases me, nothing bothers me kind of thing. And actually,
it turns out they're all human beings, right? So, they're dealing with the same struggles as any
(24:48):
other human being does, just, you know, they have a much brighter light shining on their career.
So, I really think we've made some great strides. I think we have a lot more that we can do.
I think, you know, for athletes to make mental health as big a part of, you know, how we take
care of our players as much as their physical health, I think continues to be a more important
(25:12):
thing and a big opportunity that can help everybody. Yeah, we thank you for saying that,
because that is such a change that we've seen in sports. And that's where sports has been able to
really be, in some ways, a reflection of society, that as society, we're getting better about mental
health. And that's a big element that the Bush Center is interested in right now, is sports and
unity. And we'd love to hear you talk more about this idea of how sports can be leaders in this
(25:37):
way in our communities. Well, again, we have this amazing platform. Our athletes touch,
especially young people, in ways that the other sports just don't do. I'm not exactly sure why.
Somehow, our players are more culturally relevant. Maybe it's because we approach this a little more
as the entertainment business than the other sports did historically. But, you know, each of
(26:00):
our players has got their own foundation, their own causes. But also, when we come together as a league
and as a players association, you know, it's just encouraging people to be able to talk about these
subjects. And, you know, Charles Barkley famously said, we're not role models at one point, but
they are role models. And they are really examples that especially young people, again, look up to
(26:23):
and find inspiration from and get guidance from. So, I think we have a great opportunity to
continue that dialogue. And so, this is a video podcast. We're all here in person. I hope everybody's
noticed the ring on your finger. You have had a full career. We listed off some of the things
here as this kicked off from All-Star Weekend to the Golden State Warriors to the Phoenix Suns.
(26:47):
We were talking stories from the Phoenix Suns days before we got started here. You've had a
full NBA life. You had reached the promised land. You said, I am calling it a day. And yet,
the Mavericks call and you and here you are traveling, working long hours. What pulled
you out of retirement? Yeah. Some days I ask myself that. Okay. No, I happily retired from
(27:13):
the Warriors 2021. You know, I had three and a half years of traveling the world. I did have
NBA projects that I was involved with. But Adam Silver, the NBA commissioner, called one day and
said, you know, I really like this Patrick Dumont who bought the Dallas Mavericks. And as you know,
since Marshall's retiring, would you just have a conversation with him about who they might be
(27:37):
looking at, who might be candidates for the job? So, I fell for the lead. And I remember my first
Zoom call with Patrick. I think he was at the practice facility. And, you know, you get to bump
into a few billionaires when you're dealing with owners in this league. It was unlike anything I
could have possibly expected. I didn't know anything about him. Very soft-spoken, asked a
(28:00):
lot of questions, was really interesting to talk to. And he's like, okay, let's do this again.
It's like, okay, well, let's do it again. And after that, I was learning more about him and about
his history. And then he said, well, let's come up to Las Vegas. Well,
you meet the family, should have known. And then kind of at the end of a dinner up there,
(28:25):
he said, you know, I've been thinking, like, maybe if you wanted to do this. And listen,
I've watched this franchise since its inception. I was coming to games at Reunion Arena.
The original Dallas Mavericks organization changed the business of professional basketball,
for sure, maybe professional sports, the level of professionalism that Norm Sanju and Donald Carter
(28:50):
created in that organization. When I was at the league office at the time, we just kept sending
teams to Dallas. Like, you got to try to do it like this. And then, you know, watching the team
historically, the history of fan support, the unbelievable growth that this area is experiencing
now, business friendly, you know, a place that has every success ingredient to stand toe-to-toe
(29:16):
with any franchise in sports. So if I was going to do this anywhere else, I can't imagine another
place that could have done it. And Dallas has been everything that I knew it was and expected
it to be up to this point, for sure. And 20 years from now, when you retire again, 25, fine, fine,
25, what are you hoping that your legacy reads in not just sports, but your life?
(29:43):
Yeah, I don't like the words that apply to yourself. Like, that's for somebody else
to judge. You know, there's some things that I hope I can do here. One is, like, embrace the
history of this franchise. I think we lost our way a little bit in not honoring the legacy
that we have inherited and are stewards of that franchise now. And I think we've worked really
(30:06):
hard in the last year to try to bring some of the historic characters back into the organization,
establish relationships there. That's part of what I know is our responsibility. I want to build
the best place to watch NBA basketball and other events that's ever been done before.
That would be pretty cool if we get that right. But it's, you know, imagine being able to get
(30:31):
up every morning and be as excited as I am to come into work every day and get to do something
that I love doing. I've worked every day of my life to try to make the sport of NBA basketball
better and more appealing and more interesting to people. And, you know, the journey's not over yet.
We'll see. I know it's old-school Mavericks basketball, but it warmed my heart to see
(30:52):
Mark Aguirre come out there and tear up and get his moment that he really deserved. That was pretty
cool. Yeah, good moment this year. So we've talked a lot over the last few minutes about how sports
just clearly has this unique ability to unify communities, bring people together. And it's also
seemed so clear that you embody that, too, as a leader of the Mavs and in your efforts to really
(31:16):
grow the sport. We heard earlier that you have been involved in really growing the WNBA, and we'd
love to hear about what that's been like. Of course, I think we're all aware that women's
basketball is just having a huge time and huge growth right now. We'd love to hear about your
role in that. Yeah, and that's beyond women's basketball, it's women's sports in general.
(31:37):
It's so amazing. Do you know that this is, we're coming up on the 30th anniversary of the WNBA? I
mean, in a lot of people's lives, they've discover it, discovered it the last two or three years.
But, you know, for the 25 years before that, there were so many people who worked so hard
to try to create this amazing platform for women's sports. It goes back, the origination
(32:01):
of it really goes back. I'd been to the league office for quite a while. We're starting to feel
pretty good about where we are and started to talk about, is there anything else that we could use
this organization that we've created? Anything else we could be doing? And a lot of ideas out
there. Someday when I write a book, we'll talk about the failed six months of working with NBC and
(32:23):
conference rooms to try to figure out how to launch a new football league. That's a really
good idea not to do that. We didn't do that. We didn't really have a minor league in basketball.
That seemed like it could be a logical thing for us to try to create as a talent pipeline
into the NBA. But we kept coming back to the fact, what's different about basketball?
(32:47):
And what was different about basketball is we had this amazing infrastructure of women's college
basketball that none of the other leagues had. And at the time, our American women, we felt,
were the best players, but they were no longer winning the top international competitions,
the Olympics or the World Championships, because we would throw 15 players together two weeks
(33:10):
before the Olympics. And they were playing these teams that played together every day of the year
for forever. And we weren't winning. So that's really what, if we could, and I credit the NBA
for this, David Stern, like we'll pay for putting the best 15 American women together. Let them play
for a year before the 96 Atlanta Olympics. And let's see what happens. And that could be the
(33:36):
basis of launching a league. And that team, Tara Vandiver, the legendary coach from Stanford,
took a year away from Stanford. That team traveled all over the world playing games,
went 56 and 0 going into the Atlanta Olympics. NBC was broadcasting the Olympics. They were
potentially going to be our broadcast partner. That was the American women owned the 96 Olympics
(34:00):
and everything. And nothing was more visible than the women's national team winning the
basketball gold medal. And really that was the genesis of launching the league.
And to see where it is right now, to finally see the economics developing for the players,
to see the ratings, the ascendancy of all women's sports, there's nothing more gratifying in my
(34:26):
career to know that we were a part of starting that. And I'm curious, I guess, especially with
the rise of women's sports, we've seen so many new leads recently. I'm curious, like with Unrivaled
and the WNBA having different models, what are your thoughts on that and how they've operated?
So far, so good. I do think this collective bargaining agreement that just was concluded
(34:49):
with the WNBA a couple of weeks ago, three weeks ago, is the game changer. That's the moment in
time where everything changed. We now have players earning well over a million dollars,
not a couple hundred thousand dollars that were our top salaries before. Everything about it,
(35:09):
I think, is fair and headed in the right direction. Franchise valuations, we just announced
two more or three more expansion teams, I think, at $250 million a piece. I just think the trajectory
now, this isn't a moment. We had a few moments in the past. This is really a movement that we're
not going to go back on. So, again, it's just a wonderful time. And to your point earlier,
(35:36):
these players on both the men's and women's teams are not just players, they really do serve as role
models for so many out there. How do you think about just making sure that the players, but also
leaders of the leagues and of the teams, are really continuing to foster these teams' ability
to be a true force for good in their communities? Yeah, and I'm really proud of our league and WNBA
(35:59):
in terms of how the players are prepared to be out there and be visible, take not always
popular political stands, but not be afraid and be supported by the leagues and the organizations
for having the right to do that. These are not just athletes. These are smart young people
who have opinions about the world around them. And I think we've embraced that, not always best
(36:24):
for our business, not always best for how everybody feels about that. It's always crazy to me when
people talk about how we should keep politics and sports separate. Sports is always the intersection
of where these controversial issues get discussed, okay? That's just what sports is. And
to embrace that, not shy away from that, again, to use these incredible platforms our players have
(36:50):
to be able to do positive things in their community is something that players, I think,
have an obligation to, but fortunately, most of them embrace in a big way. And so, as we get
close to wrapping here, this is a room of young professionals. And I'm now, I don't think I'm a
young professional anymore. I'm just an old professional. But when I was a young professional,
(37:10):
and still to this day, though, I had a good mentor. He's actually sitting in this room.
Sully Sullivan has taught me so much. He's taught me a lot, too. Well, and I'd love to hear, like,
who in your career has really been taught you some pivotal lessons along the way?
You know, I just had the blessing that some, this young lawyer called me one day and said,
(37:32):
hey, I'm starting a business organization at the NBA. Would you be interested? And I got to fly
back to New York City and spend a night in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel and walk over to the NBA
office. And we really connected. And I checked all the boxes that he was looking for. I was
young. I was passionate about the NBA. Maybe most importantly, I was really cheap at the time.
(37:56):
And I became, like, one of the young execs at the NBA, just kind of at the beginning of what you
see the NBA today. He, two years later, got elected commissioner to the NBA. David Stern
served in that role for 30 years. I worked for him for 17 years and lived to tell about it,
which if you know his reputation, that's quite an accomplishment. But probably learned more of
(38:21):
those lessons from him. I think if I could pick one, it's just the value of intellectual curiosity.
He had this unique ability to kind of come into the office every day and be prepared to challenge
anything that he'd learned before. Okay, you would go into his office for a meeting and
at the end of it, you know, it was pre-internet, there'd be a stack of clippings on his desk and
(38:44):
he'd be ruffling through and be one with my name and he'd hand it to me and I'd go to my office
and I'd be reading this like, I have no idea why he gave this to me. And then there'd be one sentence
in there. It's like, oh, okay, I get it. But just the ability to come in and be prepared to
challenge everything that you think you've learned, looking outside your world to other examples of
(39:07):
how people do it. Like maybe give yourself the intellectual freedom to say maybe they understand,
that's not how we do it. Maybe they understand something I don't and work your way back into
why you're doing things the way you are. The only way you could make sure the meeting went south
fast is if he asked you the question like, why are we doing that? And if your answer was,
(39:28):
because we did it that way last year, not good. Okay, not good. You better have a better
explanation of that. So I just think the value of waking up every day, believing you're going to
learn something new and not being able to, you know, be afraid to challenge some of the things
that you think you know, keeps you like very in the moment and always gives you the opportunity
(39:50):
to move forward. So with that, before we open to a brief Q&A, we do have some quick rapid fire
questions for you. Okay, the first one is, what was the first concert you ever went to?
This will date me. It was in that same building where I was a ball kid, the Seattle Center
Coliseum. It was the original Beach Boys. All right, opening line up, opening at Brian Wilson,
(40:16):
the opening act was Jan and Dean. So yeah, but I also like that arena we're going to build here,
the majority of the events will not be basketball games, like, but these are the kind of memories
that these buildings create. And I bet 99 out of 100 of you can answer that question,
where you were, who you saw in your first concert. When you need to go, local go-to meal,
(40:38):
you're not cooking at home, where are you going here in Dallas? Terry Black's barbecue.
What is one non-negotiable in your daily routine?
Absolutely, positively, the half hour I get to walk my two rescue terriers every morning by myself,
that's the best half hour of the day. It sounds glorious. It really does. Yeah. So if you,
(41:01):
if sports wouldn't have worked out when, if you wouldn't have gotten that gig when Earl left to
be the ball boy in Seattle, what career do you think you would have pursued? Journalism. Like,
I went to college during Watergate. I have to explain to young people like this, there was a
time that journalists were actually truth tellers and heroes. And I was very inspired
(41:25):
by that storytelling. I wanted to tell great stories through my journalism.
What is one piece of advice that you repeat so often? It's basically become a personal slogan.
Actually, I have it hanging on my wall in the office. Usually we're remodeling our offices
right now, but kind of keep calm and carry on that, that World War II British phrase that I
(41:48):
think kind of embodies how I try to come to work every day. Other than learning from leaders or
the strategist, what is a podcast book or show that you've recommended? Absolutely. You've
recommended more than once. I think if you're answering, I grew up in Seattle. Nike was this
little startup company outside of Portland, Oregon. And I was obsessed by Nike, my whole
(42:13):
career. So book about Phil Knight called Shoot On. If you're really interested in the sports business,
it's a must read. Okay. Last question is what is one word you hope people use five years from now
to describe the relationship between the Mavs and Dallas? How about love? I can't think of someone
(42:35):
that might be busier than this man right here. And he just took an hour out of his day to really
help us out here. So round of applause for Rick Wells, please. Thank you. I hope everybody's
enjoyed this. I know there's some Bush Center members here and some Southwest Medical Foundation
Carry Council members here. I would love for everybody to be members of both. If you're a
(42:57):
Carry Council Foundation member, we'd love to have you here on the Bush Center side and I'm
sure vice versa, right Lily? Absolutely. And just echoing Andrew's thanks, Rick, thank you so much
for being here and for sharing your insights. And Andrew, thank you for being a co-moderator.
This was a lot of fun and thank you all so much. Another round of applause for Rick Wells.
(43:21):
Thanks for listening to Learning from Leaders. If you enjoyed this episode, we invite you to
subscribe now for monthly episode drops so that you can continue to learn from experienced business
and community leaders to help you drive meaningful change in your community.
There are probably a few of us in here who can point to one day in their lives that changed
(00:03):
everything and I wouldn't be here if I hadn't had this particular day. So I grew up in Seattle,
Washington. We had a brand new NBA expansion franchise, Seattle Supersonics. I fell in love
with that team. It was the first professional team representing Seattle. The coolest kid at
Queen Anne High School was Earl Woodson. He was a ball boy for the Seattle Supersonics.
(00:24):
Earl, like, you've got to take me down and introduce me to whoever hires those ball kids.
And I scored the job. The elephant in the room, you touched on a little bit,
was the fallout from this Luka trade. You got to listen, right? You had people who were hurt,
people who were angry. The basketball gods work in incredible ways. We had a 1.8% chance
(00:47):
of winning the draft lottery. Magic happens and everything changes. What were the things that
you felt like you immediately recognized as, like, these are the cultural elements that we
need to keep going here? And what were the things that you thought, you know, this is something new
that I could introduce? Welcome to Learning from Leaders, a podcast from Southwestern Medical
(01:07):
Foundation, where we dive into a world of wisdom, mentorship, and innovation, exploring the insights
and life lessons of seasoned community and business leaders. I'm Michael McMahon, President
and CEO of Southwestern Medical Foundation. I invite you to subscribe now and join us on this
empowering journey of growth and leadership. Now, let's learn from the best and drive meaningful
(01:29):
change together. To the team here at the Southwest Medical Foundation, rolling out the red carpet
doesn't cover it. We've got a great relationship between the Bush Center and that organization. We
are so grateful for it. And Mike McMahon over there is about as good a dude as they come. So,
thank you guys for hosting us and being a part of this. And Lily, this is a pleasure. I work with
(01:53):
your dad, and so I'm excited to get to work with you a little bit now. So much fun. So, a long time
ago, I was probably about 35 or 36 when I realized I probably wasn't going to make it as an NBA point
guard. I thought I might still be able to make it as a backup at that point. And I realized that it
wasn't going to happen. And unfortunately, if it happens to a lot of us, sooner or later, we
(02:14):
realize that being on the court probably isn't going to happen. But the dream of sports is
sometimes still alive. And Rick, you've made quite a career by being in the front office. Can you
tell us about how that started and when you realized it probably wouldn't happen on the
court, but maybe it could happen in the front office? There are probably a few of us in here
(02:36):
can point to one day in their lives that changed everything. And I wouldn't be here if I hadn't
had this particular day. So, I grew up in Seattle, Washington. We had a brand new NBA expansion
franchise, the Seattle Supersonics. And I was immediately captivated. My dad and I,
that was kind of the currency of our relationship. We would go to games together.
(02:58):
From the time I could walk, UW football games, whatever it was. So, we started going to Sonics
games. And I fell in love with that team. It was the first professional team representing Seattle.
And I went to Queen Anne High School in Seattle. The coolest kid at Queen Anne High School was Earl
Woodson. Why was Earl the coolest kid? Because he was a ball boy for the Seattle Supersonics.
(03:21):
So, we hung out in the back of my English Lit class every day, and I'd get the scoop on all
my favorite players. And I lived for that. And Earl came in one day with a long face. He's like,
dude, what's wrong, man? He goes, my family's moving out of town. Earl, like, you got to take
(03:41):
me down and introduce me whoever hires those ball kids. And he did. And I scored the job. So, I get
to be talking to you today. Are the Supersonics coming back?
Fingers crossed. The NBA, as you know, has just initiated a process that we hope will result in
(04:04):
two new teams in Seattle and in Las Vegas. One of the great things that the NBA did
20 years ago when the team left was all the intellectual property stayed in Seattle. So,
the championship banner, the colors, the name of the team. So, hopefully in 2028,
we'll have a brand new Seattle Supersonics team. And in those early days, you must have had a real
(04:30):
work ethic. Are there habits that you picked up then that you still carry with you today?
You know, it sounds crazy, but when you're a 16, 17-year-old kid in a professional sports
locker room, a fly on the wall that nobody's paying attention to, there are really lessons
that I learned there that was like a master's course in professional sports, right? I could
(04:53):
see the interaction between players and coaches, doctors, media owners, and nobody paid any
attention to me. You know, when I was the guy who closed the locker room door for the pregame speech
could see how those things worked and sometimes how they didn't work. And it's such a delicate
balance that creates the atmosphere where teams can really be successful. And I rely on those
(05:18):
lessons every day. So, I think that's a perfect transition into when you first started as CEO of
the Mavs, when you're thinking about building that culture and developing that culture and
what we all know to be a very established brand, what were the things that you felt like you
immediately recognized as like, these are the cultural elements that we need to keep going here,
(05:39):
and what were the things that you thought, you know, this is something new that I could introduce?
So, I don't know how closely you follow the history of the Mavericks, but seven years or so
ago, a big, very public expose on the culture of the Mavericks that could not have been less
complimentary. It was really viewed as a very toxic culture in the organization. Mark Cuban hired
(06:04):
Cynt Marshall, a 25-year AT&T veteran, African-American female to come in and lead.
And I had the pleasure of meeting Cynt then, watched what had happened and what she did over
those seven years to restore the credibility of the Mavericks in this market is nothing short
(06:24):
of extraordinary. So, to be able to step into that role, I talk about big shoes, little feet,
you know, with Cynt, those are big shoes to step into. But from day one, it was, this is going to
be about honoring her and the legacy that she created here in community engagement, right?
(06:46):
And that is something that I think the Mavericks do as well as any team in sports, and it's
something that is my responsibility to continue the organization, keep doing. I will say, in the
time that Mark Cuban owned the team, he loved his basketball team, didn't spend as much time on the
business as you might have thought. So, there's really a business opportunity with the Mavericks
(07:11):
that hasn't been fully exploited. So, it's very possible to have both. You can be a great
business and you can continue that legacy of community engagement. So, that's my job now.
So, when you look back at those first few months, was there anything that you learned that really
surprised you?
Well, I got here January 1st, a year ago. 30 days later, we might have made a trade. I don't know if any of you have.
(07:36):
I found out at 11 o'clock at night when Patrick Dumont, yeah, I forgot to ask one question in the interview.
So, what I learned being a glass-half-full guy over that next 100 days was the depth of
connection and passion that Mavericks fans have for their team. Now, it wasn't always pretty
(07:58):
during that time, but it really told me that that exists and that can be
earned back. And I think that was the biggest lesson. It wasn't a surprise, but it really
reinforced what I sensed was out there.
And this town, it is committed to its sports. And I'm a lifelong Dallas guy.
(08:20):
We were lucky enough to talk to Dirk a couple weeks ago, and there is, I can think of few
people who deserve a statue more than that guy. And somehow, this German was able to
epitomize the city of Dallas. And you've said that we want the Mavericks to be really,
unmistakably Dallas. But what does that mean to you?
Well, looking at it from afar for a long time and now living here, I think
(08:45):
Dallas rewards innovation and risk-taking. And I think we're embarking on a
really interesting chapter in the Mavericks' lives. I use that phrase when we talk about
what we're going to talk about the arena, what we're going to build here. And I
don't want to build anything. I don't want to build Madison Square Garden. I don't
(09:09):
want to build Chase Center in San Francisco, the new Intuit Dome in LA. My hope is that
when each of you walks into that arena for the very first time, you say, wow, they get
Dallas. And that'll be a combination of things. That'll be the art that you see.
That will be the design of the building. That will be the social spaces that are created.
(09:30):
I don't know if you know that Dallas is kind of a social town. And I think we can do some
things kind of unique that haven't been done before. But that's the goal. We want people
to say this is a great expression of Dallas. And before we go too deep into the arena,
which I've got questions about the arena for sure, the Mavericks are such a part of this
(09:52):
community. But in your mind, what is the sports team being a part of the community look like?
And what's the Mavericks' plan to kind of stay involved there?
It's just an incredible privilege to have the platform that we have, right? It's the way our
players in particular touch a young audience is quite extraordinary compared to the other sports.
(10:15):
And it's such an outsized platform compared to really the size of the economic business that
we're in, right? And that comes with a responsibility and an opportunity. And that's
what every sports team should look at and see how they're using this incredible stage that we have
(10:36):
with these very influential people in our community to do good things for the people that
are the only reason we get to go to work in the morning. So I think it's the NBA. I'm very proud
of the NBA and its legacy of that. And I think that the Mavericks are a great example of it.
So now digging into the arena. So you have led various venue changes and development projects
(11:00):
with the Golden State Warriors and the Phoenix Suns. What do you think is going to kind of make
as the Mavs are in these discussions now? I'm curious what you think it will take to like
really get this venue and arena, right? And also what you think is really at stake,
both from the team perspective, but also the city perspective and the fan perspective.
(11:21):
Well, our lease expires at American Airlines in 2031. We want to be in a new building.
It's not just going to be an arena, number one. It's going to be a 50-acre entertainment district
that's anchored by an arena, but it's also going to have, you know, it's also going to have our
headquarters, our practice facility, hotels, plural, retail, residential. It's going to be a
(11:48):
changemaker for some part of the city. And we've said out loud that we want to be the team that
wears Dallas on their jerseys that plays in Dallas. So that's what we're really focused on
right now. What do we need? First of all, like we need a place, okay? It would be a really good
starting point. And we're hoping by this July to be able to tell everybody associated and interested
(12:14):
in the Mavericks where we're going to be. The city of Dallas has been super helpful in helping us
identify potential sites, not that many 50-acre sites in Dallas that would be the right location
for something like this. No secret, we're looking hard at downtown, you know, but it's not the only
place we could potentially be. You know, these things generate amazing development around them,
(12:41):
too. If we do, and we will do exactly what I said we're going to do, it really is a catalyst for
development way beyond just the project itself. So that's, I think, one of the great benefits.
I'm one of those people who, I guess I grew up in a way where sports teams really added to my
quality of life. I mean, going all the way back to those games with my dad in Seattle
(13:05):
in 1967, I was drawn to the game, but something different was happening there. Those 14,000 people
who didn't know each other had only one thing in common, which was their interest in that team.
It changed our community. It gave it, it was a point of pride. All of a sudden, we're listed in the
standings in the newspaper with Los Angeles and New York and Chicago. It was really a point of
(13:31):
pride, and it made our city better, and I think that's what these things do, and that's what we
have the opportunity to do here in Dallas. It's, you know, we got, the Bush Center got lucky. We
went to SMU, and they're like, here, sure, have 20 acres. We couldn't, we asked for 50. I guess
they didn't have it or something, but you maybe should try, maybe reach out to SMU, see if they've
got more acres. My tip, but in all seriousness, this is going to be a hard decision, and, you
(13:56):
know, that's where President Bush talks about decision-making often, and as a leader, how do
you approach a decision that is this complicated, has this many factors, is going to affect so many
people, both families going to games, as well as employment in the city? How do you weigh all these
things and come up with a one recommendation? Yeah, well, I think you listen to everybody.
(14:19):
I've been privileged to meet a lot of community leaders here, a lot of political leaders, a lot
of business leaders, and got a lot of wisdom from their experience here in Dallas and what their
view of the world is here and what we should be doing. I also think, just for me, kind of the way
I'm wired is that I like to reach out to people who I think could add value to decision-making.
(14:45):
The NBA has a really unique culture that way, very different from the other leagues in that,
you know, every day I'm talking to other executives at teams, CEOs, or presidents.
There's really nothing new in terms of a problem or an issue in our industry, and it doesn't mean
that, you know, when I reach out to somebody and ask, like, I know you faced this, what did you do
(15:08):
about it? It doesn't mean that you're going to do that, but it really informs your decision on how
to take others' experience in dealing with similar things and apply them to what you're doing,
and you weigh all that, and somebody's got to make the decision at the end, and that's my
responsibility on a lot of things. And, you know, I just think it's a process that if you're
disciplined about it, you, more times than not, will get to the right answer.
(15:31):
Have there been other arena projects that you've seen recently that really have inspired you and
made you really feel like, wow, that's something that really we should look at for Dallas?
So that's an unfair question, because seven years of my life was spent building Chase Center
in San Francisco. I think I'm probably here because Patrick Dumont, the owner of the Mavericks,
(15:52):
that's his favorite building. I was there last night for their game, flew back to Dallas this
morning. We're not going to build Chase Center, like I said, but I do think from a level of finish,
from a level of fan experience, you know, from the other things that are part of that project,
the restaurants, the open plazas, the gathering places, there's a lot of lessons to be learned
(16:16):
from any, like I'm a stadium and arena geek. Like I, if there's nothing I would rather do
than just walk around the stadium or walk around arena, because it doesn't matter how old it is,
doesn't matter what the sport is, you really do learn something, okay, that you hadn't seen before,
and I get inspired by that. I mean, think about, I don't know what the equivalent will be in your
life or yours, think about this opportunity to take everything you've learned about the business
(16:43):
you're in, for me, NBA basketball, and give it a one-of-a-kind physical form that's going to create
memories for families in North Dallas for generations to come. What a privilege and what
an opportunity. So we're going to get it right. We're going to take the best of what's been out
there, not copying anybody in particular, and hopefully add some innovations that haven't been
(17:06):
done before, and kind of take the technology a step further than any other team has taken it.
I know there are, do you look also at just other stadiums outside of basketball arenas? Do you look
at baseball stadiums? Do you look at football arenas? Absolutely. I mean, we, the battery,
Atlanta Braves development in Atlanta is a really great example of the kind of thing we would do.
(17:29):
Now, they did that in the suburbs, which is great. We'd like to, we want to do that in the city,
and I think basketball is a city game, and I think we like, you know, playing in the city.
So yeah, you can learn from, and all over the world, like I, you never go into a stadium and
arena where, like I said, you don't learn something new. Well, and the elephant in the room,
(17:52):
you touched on a little bit, was the fallout from this Luka trade, and as a leader, what was your
approach in trying to deal with what's a hard situation between the fans and the organization?
You got to listen, right? You had people who were hurt, people who were angry.
You really have to listen. You have to not be defensive. Like, you really have to
(18:15):
accept how people are feeling and give them a platform to be able to express that.
And then you got to figure out how to win back their trust and their loyalty, and the basketball
gods work in incredible ways. Exactly 100 days, not 99, not 101 days after that trade, I was the
(18:39):
only one from the organization who was sitting at our little table at the NBA draft lottery because
nobody else wanted to go. We had a 1.8% chance of winning the draft lottery. And, you know,
magic happens, and we have the opportunity to draft Cooper Flagg, and everything changes,
right? It's now the centerpiece of what the Mavericks are going to be moving forward.
(19:02):
A generational talent. The kid is barely 19 years old, and he's doing things that now he's
breaking records that LeBron James or Kobe Bryant did at his age. He's done things that no teenager
has ever done before, and he's an absolutely great kid from a great family. So, we're so blessed in
Dallas and at the Mavericks to be able to get this kid at this stage of his career. I've never seen
(19:26):
anything like it. 48th NBA season, you actually see incremental improvement every single game as
he figures out something new. And, you know, last week having a back-to-back 50 and 45 point games,
no teenager's ever done that in the history of the game. And he's ours, and he'll be the
centerpiece of what we're going to do going forward. I look around the room, and I'm like,
(19:49):
what was everybody here doing when they were 19? I know I was not scoring 50 in the NBA.
He's a little different. Yeah. Well, you all have clearly, no doubt, created so many memories for
Dallas families here and have been such an iconic brand for our city. And you've also been a great
partner to so many organizations around our city. Just last year, I think you all expanded your
(20:10):
partnership with UT Southwestern as the official medical provider for the Mavs. Could you talk
about that partnership and how you think it might, you know, serve the Mavs, but also the city
going forward? Yeah, it's been one of the great experiences I've had since I've been here to meet
administrators, doctors who are part of UT Southwestern. It is a gem in Dallas. Like,
(20:33):
there's really nothing like it, maybe nothing like it in the world. And, you know, they have taken
such an active role in engaging the community and being part of the community. So for us to be able
to do that, well, there is a benefit. Like, our players have the absolute best medical care in
the world, okay? That's a pretty good thing when you're a professional athlete. But we're
(20:56):
having conversations about where from here. No breaking news to report, but I do think, you know,
we're talking about how UT Southwestern could be integrated into this new project that we're doing.
Maybe a new medical facility, maybe a consumer-facing piece of that, in addition to
taking care of our athletes. So I'm just overwhelmed with the level of engagement and
(21:22):
competence and expertise that exists in that organization. We're super proud to be associated.
How do you think about when you were either forming a new partnership or expanding one,
like with UT Southwestern, how do you think about making sure that the partnership is something more
than kind of sponsorship dollars or a branding opportunity? Because to your point, these are
(21:43):
two incredibly special, I would say both of you all are gems of Dallas. How do you think about
really making sure that the partnership goes beyond kind of the sponsorship dollars?
Yeah, that's a great question. So that's actually the part of the business I grew up in. My first
job at the NBA, I was the very, 1982 was a very, this can sound crazy, 35th employee, number one,
(22:04):
1100 when I left, 17 years later, all over the world. But I was the very first person hired to
go out and try to convince marketing companies to invest dollars in the NBA. Sounds like the
easiest job in the world. I can't tell you what the NBA was like in 1982, it was a train wreck.
More talk about teams going out of business than expansion. First league tainted with
(22:29):
widespread accusations of drug use amongst its players. Very poorly run as a business.
I couldn't get an appointment. I moved from Seattle, New York City and go home in my little
Manhattan apartment and wonder like, what have I gotten myself into? This isn't what it was like
in Seattle when we won a championship. But I think it's really changed. Companies used to have sports
(22:53):
marketing budgets, okay, where they knew they were going to spend this much money in sports as part
of the marketing. That doesn't exist anymore. Bad news and good news. The good news is, if you create
programs that can actually touch their consumer in a way that helps their business, you really
have unlimited resources, unlimited ability to channel their marketing dollars into your
(23:15):
organization. So, it's so different than it was when I started where they worried about, you know,
what seats the CEO would have and what sign was going to be in the arena stadium. That doesn't
get you to first base anymore. You really have to be able to measure and deliver actual results that
justify these investments. And if you're honest partners and figuring that out along the way,
(23:39):
contract is great, but it's a starting point, not an ending point. And we're in the business of
renewing those, not just selling those. So, how you perform, what kind of partners you become,
how you solve companies' problems and using, again, the visibility we have as a sport,
that's what determines how successful you are. So, it's changed a lot, but I love where it is today.
(24:02):
And when you're looking at kind of back to the UT Southwestern piece, just generally,
as you're looking at kind of health and wellness related issues that the city of Dallas might face
or that your athletes might face, like what do you think are some interesting partnership concepts
that you might have top of mind? You know, we talked to UT Southwestern about this too. I
(24:22):
really think one of the great strides that professional sports have made is really on
dealing with mental health of athletes, right? It's like, especially in men's sports, this has
historically been this macho, nothing phases me, nothing bothers me kind of thing. And actually,
it turns out they're all human beings, right? So, they're dealing with the same struggles as any
(24:48):
other human being does, just, you know, they have a much brighter light shining on their career.
So, I really think we've made some great strides. I think we have a lot more that we can do.
I think, you know, for athletes to make mental health as big a part of, you know, how we take
care of our players as much as their physical health, I think continues to be a more important
(25:12):
thing and a big opportunity that can help everybody. Yeah, we thank you for saying that,
because that is such a change that we've seen in sports. And that's where sports has been able to
really be, in some ways, a reflection of society, that as society, we're getting better about mental
health. And that's a big element that the Bush Center is interested in right now, is sports and
unity. And we'd love to hear you talk more about this idea of how sports can be leaders in this
(25:37):
way in our communities. Well, again, we have this amazing platform. Our athletes touch,
especially young people, in ways that the other sports just don't do. I'm not exactly sure why.
Somehow, our players are more culturally relevant. Maybe it's because we approach this a little more
as the entertainment business than the other sports did historically. But, you know, each of
(26:00):
our players has got their own foundation, their own causes. But also, when we come together as a league
and as a players association, you know, it's just encouraging people to be able to talk about these
subjects. And, you know, Charles Barkley famously said, we're not role models at one point, but
they are role models. And they are really examples that especially young people, again, look up to
(26:23):
and find inspiration from and get guidance from. So, I think we have a great opportunity to
continue that dialogue. And so, this is a video podcast. We're all here in person. I hope everybody's
noticed the ring on your finger. You have had a full career. We listed off some of the things
here as this kicked off from All-Star Weekend to the Golden State Warriors to the Phoenix Suns.
(26:47):
We were talking stories from the Phoenix Suns days before we got started here. You've had a
full NBA life. You had reached the promised land. You said, I am calling it a day. And yet,
the Mavericks call and you and here you are traveling, working long hours. What pulled
you out of retirement? Yeah. Some days I ask myself that. Okay. No, I happily retired from
(27:13):
the Warriors 2021. You know, I had three and a half years of traveling the world. I did have
NBA projects that I was involved with. But Adam Silver, the NBA commissioner, called one day and
said, you know, I really like this Patrick Dumont who bought the Dallas Mavericks. And as you know,
since Marshall's retiring, would you just have a conversation with him about who they might be
(27:37):
looking at, who might be candidates for the job? So, I fell for the lead. And I remember my first
Zoom call with Patrick. I think he was at the practice facility. And, you know, you get to bump
into a few billionaires when you're dealing with owners in this league. It was unlike anything I
could have possibly expected. I didn't know anything about him. Very soft-spoken, asked a
(28:00):
lot of questions, was really interesting to talk to. And he's like, okay, let's do this again.
It's like, okay, well, let's do it again. And after that, I was learning more about him and about
his history. And then he said, well, let's come up to Las Vegas. Well,
you meet the family, should have known. And then kind of at the end of a dinner up there,
(28:25):
he said, you know, I've been thinking, like, maybe if you wanted to do this. And listen,
I've watched this franchise since its inception. I was coming to games at Reunion Arena.
The original Dallas Mavericks organization changed the business of professional basketball,
for sure, maybe professional sports, the level of professionalism that Norm Sanju and Donald Carter
(28:50):
created in that organization. When I was at the league office at the time, we just kept sending
teams to Dallas. Like, you got to try to do it like this. And then, you know, watching the team
historically, the history of fan support, the unbelievable growth that this area is experiencing
now, business friendly, you know, a place that has every success ingredient to stand toe-to-toe
(29:16):
with any franchise in sports. So if I was going to do this anywhere else, I can't imagine another
place that could have done it. And Dallas has been everything that I knew it was and expected
it to be up to this point, for sure. And 20 years from now, when you retire again, 25, fine, fine,
25, what are you hoping that your legacy reads in not just sports, but your life?
(29:43):
Yeah, I don't like the words that apply to yourself. Like, that's for somebody else
to judge. You know, there's some things that I hope I can do here. One is, like, embrace the
history of this franchise. I think we lost our way a little bit in not honoring the legacy
that we have inherited and are stewards of that franchise now. And I think we've worked really
(30:06):
hard in the last year to try to bring some of the historic characters back into the organization,
establish relationships there. That's part of what I know is our responsibility. I want to build
the best place to watch NBA basketball and other events that's ever been done before.
That would be pretty cool if we get that right. But it's, you know, imagine being able to get
(30:31):
up every morning and be as excited as I am to come into work every day and get to do something
that I love doing. I've worked every day of my life to try to make the sport of NBA basketball
better and more appealing and more interesting to people. And, you know, the journey's not over yet.
We'll see. I know it's old-school Mavericks basketball, but it warmed my heart to see
(30:52):
Mark Aguirre come out there and tear up and get his moment that he really deserved. That was pretty
cool. Yeah, good moment this year. So we've talked a lot over the last few minutes about how sports
just clearly has this unique ability to unify communities, bring people together. And it's also
seemed so clear that you embody that, too, as a leader of the Mavs and in your efforts to really
(31:16):
grow the sport. We heard earlier that you have been involved in really growing the WNBA, and we'd
love to hear about what that's been like. Of course, I think we're all aware that women's
basketball is just having a huge time and huge growth right now. We'd love to hear about your
role in that. Yeah, and that's beyond women's basketball, it's women's sports in general.
(31:37):
It's so amazing. Do you know that this is, we're coming up on the 30th anniversary of the WNBA? I
mean, in a lot of people's lives, they've discover it, discovered it the last two or three years.
But, you know, for the 25 years before that, there were so many people who worked so hard
to try to create this amazing platform for women's sports. It goes back, the origination
(32:01):
of it really goes back. I'd been to the league office for quite a while. We're starting to feel
pretty good about where we are and started to talk about, is there anything else that we could use
this organization that we've created? Anything else we could be doing? And a lot of ideas out
there. Someday when I write a book, we'll talk about the failed six months of working with NBC and
(32:23):
conference rooms to try to figure out how to launch a new football league. That's a really
good idea not to do that. We didn't do that. We didn't really have a minor league in basketball.
That seemed like it could be a logical thing for us to try to create as a talent pipeline
into the NBA. But we kept coming back to the fact, what's different about basketball?
(32:47):
And what was different about basketball is we had this amazing infrastructure of women's college
basketball that none of the other leagues had. And at the time, our American women, we felt,
were the best players, but they were no longer winning the top international competitions,
the Olympics or the World Championships, because we would throw 15 players together two weeks
(33:10):
before the Olympics. And they were playing these teams that played together every day of the year
for forever. And we weren't winning. So that's really what, if we could, and I credit the NBA
for this, David Stern, like we'll pay for putting the best 15 American women together. Let them play
for a year before the 96 Atlanta Olympics. And let's see what happens. And that could be the
(33:36):
basis of launching a league. And that team, Tara Vandiver, the legendary coach from Stanford,
took a year away from Stanford. That team traveled all over the world playing games,
went 56 and 0 going into the Atlanta Olympics. NBC was broadcasting the Olympics. They were
potentially going to be our broadcast partner. That was the American women owned the 96 Olympics
(34:00):
and everything. And nothing was more visible than the women's national team winning the
basketball gold medal. And really that was the genesis of launching the league.
And to see where it is right now, to finally see the economics developing for the players,
to see the ratings, the ascendancy of all women's sports, there's nothing more gratifying in my
(34:26):
career to know that we were a part of starting that. And I'm curious, I guess, especially with
the rise of women's sports, we've seen so many new leads recently. I'm curious, like with Unrivaled
and the WNBA having different models, what are your thoughts on that and how they've operated?
So far, so good. I do think this collective bargaining agreement that just was concluded
(34:49):
with the WNBA a couple of weeks ago, three weeks ago, is the game changer. That's the moment in
time where everything changed. We now have players earning well over a million dollars,
not a couple hundred thousand dollars that were our top salaries before. Everything about it,
(35:09):
I think, is fair and headed in the right direction. Franchise valuations, we just announced
two more or three more expansion teams, I think, at $250 million a piece. I just think the trajectory
now, this isn't a moment. We had a few moments in the past. This is really a movement that we're
not going to go back on. So, again, it's just a wonderful time. And to your point earlier,
(35:36):
these players on both the men's and women's teams are not just players, they really do serve as role
models for so many out there. How do you think about just making sure that the players, but also
leaders of the leagues and of the teams, are really continuing to foster these teams' ability
to be a true force for good in their communities? Yeah, and I'm really proud of our league and WNBA
(35:59):
in terms of how the players are prepared to be out there and be visible, take not always
popular political stands, but not be afraid and be supported by the leagues and the organizations
for having the right to do that. These are not just athletes. These are smart young people
who have opinions about the world around them. And I think we've embraced that, not always best
(36:24):
for our business, not always best for how everybody feels about that. It's always crazy to me when
people talk about how we should keep politics and sports separate. Sports is always the intersection
of where these controversial issues get discussed, okay? That's just what sports is. And
to embrace that, not shy away from that, again, to use these incredible platforms our players have
(36:50):
to be able to do positive things in their community is something that players, I think,
have an obligation to, but fortunately, most of them embrace in a big way. And so, as we get
close to wrapping here, this is a room of young professionals. And I'm now, I don't think I'm a
young professional anymore. I'm just an old professional. But when I was a young professional,
(37:10):
and still to this day, though, I had a good mentor. He's actually sitting in this room.
Sully Sullivan has taught me so much. He's taught me a lot, too. Well, and I'd love to hear, like,
who in your career has really been taught you some pivotal lessons along the way?
You know, I just had the blessing that some, this young lawyer called me one day and said,
(37:32):
hey, I'm starting a business organization at the NBA. Would you be interested? And I got to fly
back to New York City and spend a night in the Waldorf Astoria Hotel and walk over to the NBA
office. And we really connected. And I checked all the boxes that he was looking for. I was
young. I was passionate about the NBA. Maybe most importantly, I was really cheap at the time.
(37:56):
And I became, like, one of the young execs at the NBA, just kind of at the beginning of what you
see the NBA today. He, two years later, got elected commissioner to the NBA. David Stern
served in that role for 30 years. I worked for him for 17 years and lived to tell about it,
which if you know his reputation, that's quite an accomplishment. But probably learned more of
(38:21):
those lessons from him. I think if I could pick one, it's just the value of intellectual curiosity.
He had this unique ability to kind of come into the office every day and be prepared to challenge
anything that he'd learned before. Okay, you would go into his office for a meeting and
at the end of it, you know, it was pre-internet, there'd be a stack of clippings on his desk and
(38:44):
he'd be ruffling through and be one with my name and he'd hand it to me and I'd go to my office
and I'd be reading this like, I have no idea why he gave this to me. And then there'd be one sentence
in there. It's like, oh, okay, I get it. But just the ability to come in and be prepared to
challenge everything that you think you've learned, looking outside your world to other examples of
(39:07):
how people do it. Like maybe give yourself the intellectual freedom to say maybe they understand,
that's not how we do it. Maybe they understand something I don't and work your way back into
why you're doing things the way you are. The only way you could make sure the meeting went south
fast is if he asked you the question like, why are we doing that? And if your answer was,
(39:28):
because we did it that way last year, not good. Okay, not good. You better have a better
explanation of that. So I just think the value of waking up every day, believing you're going to
learn something new and not being able to, you know, be afraid to challenge some of the things
that you think you know, keeps you like very in the moment and always gives you the opportunity
(39:50):
to move forward. So with that, before we open to a brief Q&A, we do have some quick rapid fire
questions for you. Okay, the first one is, what was the first concert you ever went to?
This will date me. It was in that same building where I was a ball kid, the Seattle Center
Coliseum. It was the original Beach Boys. All right, opening line up, opening at Brian Wilson,
(40:16):
the opening act was Jan and Dean. So yeah, but I also like that arena we're going to build here,
the majority of the events will not be basketball games, like, but these are the kind of memories
that these buildings create. And I bet 99 out of 100 of you can answer that question,
where you were, who you saw in your first concert. When you need to go, local go-to meal,
(40:38):
you're not cooking at home, where are you going here in Dallas? Terry Black's barbecue.
What is one non-negotiable in your daily routine?
Absolutely, positively, the half hour I get to walk my two rescue terriers every morning by myself,
that's the best half hour of the day. It sounds glorious. It really does. Yeah. So if you,
(41:01):
if sports wouldn't have worked out when, if you wouldn't have gotten that gig when Earl left to
be the ball boy in Seattle, what career do you think you would have pursued? Journalism. Like,
I went to college during Watergate. I have to explain to young people like this, there was a
time that journalists were actually truth tellers and heroes. And I was very inspired
(41:25):
by that storytelling. I wanted to tell great stories through my journalism.
What is one piece of advice that you repeat so often? It's basically become a personal slogan.
Actually, I have it hanging on my wall in the office. Usually we're remodeling our offices
right now, but kind of keep calm and carry on that, that World War II British phrase that I
(41:48):
think kind of embodies how I try to come to work every day. Other than learning from leaders or
the strategist, what is a podcast book or show that you've recommended? Absolutely. You've
recommended more than once. I think if you're answering, I grew up in Seattle. Nike was this
little startup company outside of Portland, Oregon. And I was obsessed by Nike, my whole
(42:13):
career. So book about Phil Knight called Shoot On. If you're really interested in the sports business,
it's a must read. Okay. Last question is what is one word you hope people use five years from now
to describe the relationship between the Mavs and Dallas? How about love? I can't think of someone
(42:35):
that might be busier than this man right here. And he just took an hour out of his day to really
help us out here. So round of applause for Rick Wells, please. Thank you. I hope everybody's
enjoyed this. I know there's some Bush Center members here and some Southwest Medical Foundation
Carry Council members here. I would love for everybody to be members of both. If you're a
(42:57):
Carry Council Foundation member, we'd love to have you here on the Bush Center side and I'm
sure vice versa, right Lily? Absolutely. And just echoing Andrew's thanks, Rick, thank you so much
for being here and for sharing your insights. And Andrew, thank you for being a co-moderator.
This was a lot of fun and thank you all so much. Another round of applause for Rick Wells.
(43:21):
Thanks for listening to Learning from Leaders. If you enjoyed this episode, we invite you to
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