2026 SEO Secrets That Ranked 1,000+ Sites (James Dooley)

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
Right now, Google is quietly reshufflingwho wins and who disappears.
The amount of top of the funnel keywordsthat we used to write for.
Now we're almost getting no traffic frombecause AI overviews are answering it.
In this episode, I get to sit downwith the legend James Dooley.
He started his career back in 2009when he built his first website.

(00:20):
James quickly became fascinated with SEOand learned everything he could
about the subject.
In the years since, he has built overa thousand different websites
and ranked them on Google,generating over 2 million leads.
To me, like SEO is about compoundinglittle 1% wins.
I'm one of them people that I don't gofishing with a fishing rod, I go fishing

(00:41):
with a big net and I catch everythingbecause I would say to you,
I'm not an SEO.
I'm a businessman that leverages SEO.
So it all comes down to it.
For those of you that don't
know, James and I actually met last yearat a mastermind, and I want to say
it was one of the kind of highlightsfor the trip for me, because I've heard
so many great things about you frompeople like Karl Rove and Matt Diggity,

(01:05):
and they kind of describedyou as like this SEO that maybe is like
a little bit behind the scenes,but like, knows more than anybody else.
So that is kind ofwhat my experience meeting James was like.
I'm really excited for this episodeto drop like a ton of knowledge.
James,you've ranked over a thousand websites
and you've generated over 2 million leads.

(01:27):
So somebody at that level,what would you say that you do differently
today in 2026that you see a lot of other CEOs missing?
I think a lot of the peoplein the community try and cut corners.
I think they don't concentrating on actualbranding and holistic marketing.
So I think for me, myself, I'd sayI'm more of a marketer than an SEO.

(01:49):
SEO is a large, largepart of the marketing of what we do,
but we repurpose a lot of the contentfor social media, for YouTube
and stuff like that.
And I think holistically
trying to do everything and tryand be omni channel and omnipresent.
That's kind of what gets us to winand get a lot of inquiries long term.
And the types of businessesthat you get leads for.

(02:09):
Is there like what niches do you work injust for people that are unaware? Yes.
I mean, we know of 650different industries in total.
I think a lot of people say,
oh, you should niche downand go into one specific marketplace.
We kind of went very broad and very wide,because what we started to realize was
when we started, we started off in, let'ssay like roofing plumbers, electricians,

(02:31):
carpet cleaning, all the industriesthat everyone knows everything about.
And we started to realizethat a lot of these industries was
it was quite difficult to generateinitially leads for.
But then we entered 1 or 2.
We would classes being smaller industries,but then started
to make three four times more profitand it was easier to rank for.

(02:53):
So I think when you start doingyour keyword research and really digging
deep into, okay, you're a plumber,but where is it you make your money?
Okay. It's boilers. Okay.
Well what type of boilers?
It could be like heat pumpsand stuff like that.
So we really, really kind of dig downinto the niches
of what makes them good profit.
And then not only that is different,obviously attributes, the modifiers

(03:15):
that can come with it.
So if you was in let's say boilers,do you install the boilers
or do you repair the Biosor clean the boilers.
So then we then start trying to understandwhat it is, where they make the money.
And some of these peoplethat don't to install a boiler
make costs in the UK,let's say 2000 in the US could be $3,000.
But to actually service

(03:36):
it then same engineers might be ableto service 7 or 8 in a day,
and they might make more profiton servicing
and cleaning than actually installing.
So we start just to dig deeper on that.
But in answer to
it is pretty much name an industryand we're probably in it in the UK.
Wow. Okay, so you mentioned social media.
Social media seems to be one thing

(03:57):
that small businesses in general,I'd say are pretty terrible at.
So let's just say, for example,you have a roofer.
What on earth would they even postabout on social media?
And like which social media platformis what they focus on?
It's a great question.
And if you would have asked me
that a couple of years ago,I would have had a different answer.
But in today's algorithms,Facebook and Instagram

(04:20):
now are getting indexed very,very well by Google.
And they never used to,but now they're getting very, very well.
So I would be creating not a profile pagebecause profile pages don't do that
well on Facebook.
So like Joe Hawkins.
No, I wouldn't do that.
But on your company pageor if you have a page about Joe
Hawkins or in Facebook groups,the actual statuses that you do can rank.

(04:46):
And I don't think enoughpeople know about this.
So if you can go and get in the first12 words, the actual keywords
that you want to rank for, thatthen can get your Facebook posts ranking.
So I'd be recommending on doing that.
It's the same with Twitter.
It's the same with LinkedInand also Instagram.
We also do a lot with regardsto reputation,

(05:07):
like we love QueryFan out as being an example.
So to try and get cited in the LMS,we understand a big part of query
fan out is reputation.
So what falls on beneaththat is testimonials, reviews, case
studies and awards.
So if the business let's say you'rea roofing company, you've just won a
local award, go and shout about thatand maybe create an image about it.

(05:31):
Or if you've got a photo with the trophy,
be sharing that on Instagram, on LinkedIn,on Twitter with different things,
and explain with semantic triplesthe name of the company
that what award they've wondefine it together within a sentence.
LMS well, AI starts to pick it upand index it, and then it can then help
with the reputation element of query,find out as well and stuff like that.

(05:54):
So there's lots that they can be doing.
This should be doing,if I'm being honest with you.
Like too many are like writing blog postsabout how to do something on a roof
and stuff like and I'm like, just for now,think of branding.
Think of testimonials, reviews, casestudies and awards and shout and scream
about that on social media,which will help you longer term.

(06:15):
Starting to get cited in the LMS as well.
Okay, so sticking with the roofertheme, let's take an example here.
So we've got Eastern Roofing.
I just googled for a rooferand found these guys.
And this is their Facebook page.
So this is like their currentFacebook post.
How would you make this post betterso that you're saying this post itself
could actually rank on Google?

(06:36):
Yeah for sure.
So with regards to that post specifically,our story means nothing.
So you've got
you've got to thinking semantic triplesI was our story means nothing.
So I would be putting easternroofing continues in every roof.
We in every roof relay.
So I'd be starting not with our story,but the name of the brand

(06:57):
at the start of it.
And it only sounds very counterintuitivewith regards to you would normally say I
or we have done this,but you need to be getting
the actual entity name at the start of it.
But I would maybe evenstart with a question like,
something to do with the eastern roofing.
Could be,
what type of roofs doeastern roofing install has been?

(07:20):
The question do a page baked pagebreak on on the actual status
and then underneath it eastern roofinginstall slate roofing, tile roofing,
flat roofing. And what blue roofing,
green roofing there are like differentbiodiverse roofing.
These are all different
kind of sub subsectorswithin roofing that they could be doing.

(07:41):
But the first 7 to 12 wordsis what performs.
And then becoming the titletag of that Facebook post.
So then what you then want to do is go
and get that actual URL of that Facebookpost and force index in it, so Google
bots crawl in it,and those posts can actually rank
if it's a case study,a testimonial on the image,

(08:04):
put in the actual testimonialon the image, and then the images,
then can start ranking in Google imagesfor the testimonials
of the reviews in the case,that is as well.
But I'd never start with I, weor our story, or we start with the entity
and then and then the like what it isthat they've done after it.
So you mentioned a few thingsthat I want to dumb down for our audience,

(08:25):
in case that they're not familiarwith these terms.
You talk about semantic triples.
Can you explain what that means? Yeah.
So semantic triple is where if you say
how how old these gems do right.
You don't say he is 23 years old.
I'm not obviously 23.
I'm a lot older than that.
But we'll run with 23 years old anyway.
But you would you would do.

(08:46):
How old is James Dooley?
James Dooley is beingthe entity is 23 years old.
So a semantic triple is where you'regetting a subject a predicate
and an objector entity attribute and value.
And if you don't know
what a semantic triple is, honestly,I suggest you Google it, go online,
go and have a look at it, and understandbecause that is how sentence structure

(09:10):
needs to be within how Google passesinformation and sentences.
Everybody should be writingin semantic triples, and it's so key
and it's so key as well on social mediaas well that you're doing this.
Another thing that you said thatI want to also
clarify, you talked about forcing Googleto index the post.
Can you explain how you would do thator are you referring to indexing tools?

(09:33):
I'm not sure.
Actually.
Our audience knows a lot about those
and they may havesome spanning spammy connotations.
So I also want to hearwhat your thoughts are on,
like what you use indexing tools forand what you wouldn't use them for.
Yeah, absolutely.
So indexing is a big problemwith Google. Why?
Because the amount of AI slopthat gets kind of put out online,
and everyone now can go and churn out200, 300 pages in a single day.

(09:57):
And whether they're using ChatGPTor Claude or whatever AI writer of what
they're using, and Google's got a problemtrying to crawl and index the web.
And so with regards to your own website,
I wouldn't really be usingan indexing tool for your money site.
Personally, I would be sayingonce you've written an article,
go into Google SearchConsole, do Affection Render.

(10:19):
Hopefully Googlebot comes and crawlsit and indexes it.
Another wayis that once you've written a new article,
share that on your social mediaand link back through to the post.
Google and regular crawlingLinkedIn and Twitter.
Twitter is probably
the number one way of getting thingsindexed for your money site.
If it doesn't naturally be picked upwith regards to

(10:40):
actual social media platforms,you don't have Google Search Console
that allows you to then go and indexsomething that's not on your own website.
And at that pointI'd be using an indexing tool.
There's many out there that can workwell for indexing social media platforms,
so whatever you preferred indexing toolas you can go and do that,

(11:01):
but get the URL for the tweet URL,the Instagram URL,
the LinkedIn URL, or the Facebook postURL and load them into the indexes.
So if you don't, it'snot going to get like crawled.
But it might get crawledbut not indexed by Google.
Get that indexed and try and get it inthe top 20 in Google.
And then it's feeding the LMS.

(11:21):
We call it seeding and you seeding them
with reviews, testimonialsand stuff like that.
Okay.
So I want to also I'm going to screenshare here and show a couple more things.
So when I do a search on Googlefor roofers in Kansas
City, like certainly Facebookis dominating lately.
We're seeing thiswith Facebook groups now.
It's kind of interesting isthis post is interesting.

(11:44):
It's got all the right keywords in it.
It's in this giant groupcalled Kansas City Secrets.
So if you're trying to get more visibilityfor your business.
Do you ask somebody to,you know, to go like make a post?
Like, I don't know if somebody askedfor this post to be created, but,
you know, it's definitely writtenvery well.

(12:04):
Better than I would say the average userwould post in a Facebook group.
Or are you waiting for some random personto ask about roofing companies?
And then you go and you recommendyour brand, which is more what happened?
It looks like in this casethey're like, who's reputable roofers?
And then like this person's like,hey, I work with Pyramid Roofing.

(12:25):
So I would
certainly do both strategies myself.
So the number, the second strategy there,if someone's physically asking
that question,
be making certain that you've gotsome sort of tracking on social media
being set up.
I think this Nightwatch and I thinkthere's several others that you can use
and that tracks anythingthat's mentioning,

(12:46):
let's say Rufous in KansasCity is being the example.
The minute someone's mentioning thaton Quora, on Reddit, on Twitter,
on Facebook, that you're going in thereand then answering to say
that your businessor your brand is the best in that area.
However,how many people is going to do that?
There might not be anyonethat's done it yet, so why not?

(13:07):
If you do, you want to rankfor a roofing company in Kansas City
or Best Roofing Company in Kansas City?
Absolutely you do.
If you're a roofing company,best thing based in Kansas City,
you want to be ranking for those terms.
So you could be thentrying to influence it by getting someone.
It could be an existing client,it could be a member of staff,

(13:28):
whoever it is that then goes and writes itto say who is the best
and and then you can get the commentsto do it.
Or what I'm saying is what you could dois like where people do
like listicles on like guest postsor on press releases.
You could also be doing thisin a much shorter version.
Who is the bestroofing company in Kansas City?

(13:49):
Question mark.
Page break, page break.
Exactly like what they've done there.
And then underneath it, the bestRufus in Kansas City is number one,
Joe Hawkins Roofing Company, number two,James Roofing company number three.
And you and you're doing those listiclesand you're putting them on there,
and then you then underneath it, explainhow you based

(14:11):
your decisions have been who is the bestand second best and third best.
Other people then can be doing commentsand likes and doing stuff like that.
But if Google bots crawlingthat information, you've got the question
directly underneath it,you've got the answer.
Googlethen starts to use that information.
And also that also hasa visual intelligence does.
So you're feeding the other lenswith doing stuff like this.

(14:32):
Okay, I guess the disclaimer isyou're always going to have people
disagreeing on your post,which it looks like is happening here.
Some people are saying like, no,these people are terrible.
Some are saying they're great.
You know, obviouslythat's where the discussion will happen.
Do you need reactions to the post for itto rank?
Like do you need a certain number?
Is there like a number of likes
or comments or anything like thatthat you would suggest?

(14:56):
There's been a lot of testing on thisin the last month because it's gone right.
Everyone's doing it now.
With regards to theI feel like social media parasite CEOs
become the new listicle, and everyone
became obsessed with doing listicleson press releases and stuff like that.
And I feel like now social mediais it's getting indexed so well

(15:17):
when you just force index it,that this has become the new way of doing
listicles. So,
yeah, in answerto it, no, he doesn't need any likes.
It doesn't need any comments.
Once Googlebot crawlsthat you've loaded it into the index,
it can rank and it can rank very,very well.
I'd say anyone who's watching thisgo and test it for the service
that you do in the area that you do,and you'll see how quickly

(15:40):
normally it gets indexed within 3to 5 hours and straight away.
Then it can not only be rankingwithin Google, but being fed by
Gemini and Claudeare the main two in ChatGPT normal text.
A couple of weeks for it to come throughinto their but but what I would say to you
is that the comments underneathit don't get pulled through into the LMS.

(16:03):
It's only really the statusthat get pulled through.
So even if everybody else disagreed inthe comments saying, no, no, I disagree.
They're not the bestroofing company in Kansas City.
The informationthat's in the state of scoring.
Who are the best roofing companiesin Kansas City is number one.
That's what the LMS would pull through.
Got it.
And to be clear, if you're a businessthat's trying to do this
really above board

(16:24):
and you don't want to go by commentsor likes or anything like that,
this is
still something that you could accomplish.
Yeah for sure.
I mean, you don't need to do anythingthat's fake or unless, I mean, for me,
see, the whole listicle kind of saga wherepeople are talking about, does it work?
Does it not work?

(16:44):
It's really,really obvious that it works, right?
There's no debate in it.
If anyone says that it doesn't just goand start doing some searches in chat
in Gemini, in Claude, or in Google,it's clear to see that it works.
However, it's frowned upon.
If you're going doing a listicleand then you're going putting yourself
as number one and you're other businessesnumber two, and so on and so on.

(17:07):
But why do I think peopleneed to take this to the next level?
Is sitting down and working outwhy you think you're the best,
working out your piece,
working out your reviews, work,getting the awards that you've won and
why. Okay,
number one, local SEO in the world is JoeHawkins. Why?
Because I've done this,I've done that, I've done that.

(17:28):
And you're backing it up with stats
and statistics that makes you believewhy you are the best.
Dave. Someone says, oh,you shouldn't be doing that. And you go.
Wait a minute.
If I don't do it and somebody else does itand they're then getting referenced,
why shouldn't I do it?
Like why should I not say I believe I'mthe best?
And here'sthe reason why I think I'm the best.
I think you can cite yourselfbecause if if you don't,

(17:51):
you're going to be relianton somebody else to. And they might not.
It's almost like create good contentand the links will come.
We'll do.
They come out all the time.Not in certain markets. They don't.
So if you don't say you're the bestroofing company in Kansas City,
but your competitor does, well,they're going to rank you in the LMS.
And that's just the way it is.
So we can have it allsit there and argue in the SEO community,

(18:11):
whether it's right or whether it's wrong,or we can say, I want my client,
who's a roofing client in Kansas City,to outrank my competitor.
Therefore, this is what I need to do.
That's my stance on it.
I mean, some people thrown upon it, soyou shouldn't do it and stuff like that.
But we're here to try to get businessfor our clients.
And therefore, what do you need to do?

(18:33):
This is what you need to do at present.
You need to do listiclesalso on social media, as well as on press
releases, on guest postsand stuff like that.
But try to at least have some datato back it up of why
get the USPS, why, and then you're goingto you're going to win in the AI race.
You're going to win to get the inquiries.
Or if you're an e-commerceor you're going to get those sales.

(18:56):
Yeah.
And I just so you know, I have no problemwith self-promoting listicles.
I think they're fine.
I think in certain industriesthere are regulations against them.
So obviously with lawyerswe're always like,
hey, you got to make sure this is allowedand that you're okay to like list
yourself is the best.Some of them are definitely not in the US.
I had a couple of questions.
You mentioned you could do a post on yourFacebook page and that would get indexed,

(19:20):
but I never see like Facebook pagesunder this discussion and forum section.
Have you seen it in that sectionor does it rank somewhere else on Google?
Joel has a great question.
I'm not 100% whether it fallsunder discussions in forums.
I think the Facebook groups fallunder discussions and forums.
I think the Facebook page

(19:42):
comes outside of thatbut can still rank very, very well.
So it comes outside of the discussionsand forums, I think.
Don't hold me to that.
The profiles, the actual profile of JoyHawkins that you might
have your family pictures onand all the rest of it, they don't rank.
It's got to be a page or a groupwithin on Facebook that does well.
And that's true.
Even if you have a professional profileon Facebook

(20:05):
that's like publicly visiblewith followers and all that.
Got it.
Okay.
Because there's some like,
you know, CEOs, for example,that are well known
who have Facebook profilesfor their names.
So if you have one for James Dooley,you can set it to public
and you can ask like, you can add a thingfor people to follow you as well.
So those theoretically would workto. Should do. Yeah.

(20:27):
I mean probably the easiest one on that
where I'm uncertainwhether it's a profile or a page.
It might be like I've got a Jamesdo the profile,
which is mainly for my family,and I've got a James Dooley page,
which is still me, but it's that I'mallowed to the that is the answer to it.
If you go into the admin settings,can you run ads on on it?

(20:48):
If you can run ads on it, it's a pagewhich then allows to be indexed.
If you can, it means it's a profileand that's not allowed.
I think that's.
Really helpful.
And if you're bragging about some awardsyou want,
would you always make sureyou link to the award?
Because I've heard some people sayputting links in your social posts
is a good wayfor them to become invisible.

(21:09):
What are your thoughts on that?
So there's certainly, I can't rememberthe word like dampness that's put in place
with regards to if you put in linksin the actual post for actual.
Again, we've done another test on thisand for actual rankings
in Google, it doesn't matterwhether you put the link in our.
Don't put the link in somethingthat is key.

(21:30):
Actually on LinkedIn, if you're doingdon't do hashtags on LinkedIn.
If you want to rankthe LinkedIn post in Google.
And the reason being is the hashtag startsto become the title tag,
not the first 7 to 12 words, which thenmeans that the title tag might be.

(21:51):
You could be writing about
how you've just done an amazing,or you just want certain award
for being the best local company,and you might want to go
best local SEO agency, Kansas City.
And then underneath it, Joe Hawkins.
Sterling Sky has been voted the numberone thing, and you've got that in.
If you went to put hashtagdigital marketing, digital marketing

(22:13):
then becomes the title tag
and you're not going to rank numberone for that term, so don't do it in that.
But in on Twitter, Instagram and Facebook,
you can do hashtagsand you can put links in
and it still gets pulled through properlywithin Google.
So we've done
all these different types of nuancesand testing of what's needing to be done.
And that's kind of what they areindeed testing teams, therefore,

(22:35):
to try and see what boundaries we can pushto get as much exposure as possible.
Yeah, that's a solid tip.
Okay, I want to quickly touch on Reddit.
Reddit ranks as well.
If you are a business and you
want to succeed on Reddit,how do you do that?
So Reddit is

(22:55):
a much different setup to what I've just been saying.
They're on Facebook, Twitter,LinkedIn and Instagram.
Upvotes and comments do matter on this.
And but also it depends onwhere you're looking for.
So those upvotes and comments do matter.
You need to be very carefulif you was going buying up votes

(23:16):
and stuff like that,you can end up getting like listings
being removed and stuff like that.
So trying to like genuinelytry to get some try and do
good quality content,which is going to get people
saying yes, I agree and votingit is key as much as you can.
But with regards to rankings of the forum,that comes down to links and virility.

(23:37):
So if one could end up having hundreds
of comments and upvotes and the other onecould only have five comments.
But if this one in Google's eyes,getting more links and exposure
within Google search and trafficin Google search
that's coming through to that page,then at that point, like through
social mentions and stuff, this forumdiscussion will show up in Google.

(24:02):
Not that one.
So there's a lot of people doingsome blackout techniques with regards
to some people calling themclick bombs, viability,
social media blasts and stuff like that,where it's trying to send as much traffic
and social and viral to a URL to get thatshowing up in the forums and discussions.
And it just so happens to bein those forums and discussions

(24:25):
that Joe Hawkins Roofing is rankingnumber one
on that page is being the bestroofing company in Kansas City.
I see this as a
mod in a specific subredditthat I moderate.
There is so much of thatand they all get banned.
To be clear,like the people that are buying engagement
actually read, it is startingto catch them automatically.

(24:46):
A lot more than I used to see.
So like I'll get to a postbecause people flag them
if they're like if
if it's a post recommending a businessor something
like that, people will flag itto the moderators half the time.
Now when I get to them,Reddit has already removed them.
So Reddit is definitely a harder platformto get on unless you're doing it.

(25:06):
Like again the the non buying comments,the non buying of likes
and things like that tends to work better.
But it's so long andpainful from what I've found.
Like it's hard to find Reddit threadsthat people create
that you need to respond toand things like that.
So Reddit is definitely a not an easy onethat I've found anyways to crack.

(25:26):
It's very difficult,and I think a lot of the people
in the iGaming sector,in the porn sector and stuff like that,
I think they know how to manipulate itvery well and it's generally speaking it's
upvotes, comments and then commentsthe upvotes on the comments.
And it does work well.
But it's it depends on howwhat risk tolerance you want to do.
It's very blackout in doingall the purchasing of upvotes and stuff.

(25:51):
We don't do it internally,but I do know a lot of people that do
and do it very successfullyand hats off to them for doing it.
But it's not something that withinour agency that we look wanting to do.
Yeah. No. Same.I stay away from that stuff.
So let's talk about AI a bit.
AI versus Google.
You know, there was a lot of talk
a couple of years agowhen I first came out,

(26:12):
that it was going to becomelike a huge competitor to Google.
So since you work in lead gen,how many leads
would you say that your sites are gettingfrom AI versus Google currently?
So this this is a great question
because actually we're massively downon the volume of leads in Google.
And however sales are all.

(26:32):
So you work that one out.
So basically what's happening is therepeople are being a lot more
their spending longer times
on whether it's Google Search or onChatGPT asking Claude or whatever it is.
So if they're initially doing that,
doing that initial searchfor our roofing company in Kansas City,
they then get in the air with youand they're asking there

(26:53):
to go back and forth now with AI,but by the time they actually inquiring
in London through to your website,then what's actually happening with us
is the amount of top of the funnelkeywords that we used to rank for.
And now we're almost gettingno traffic for.
Nearly all of them have gone like we justdon't get the clicks from anymore
because AI overviews are answering it.

(27:14):
However, the amount of branded searchthat we're now getting has gone up a lot,
and those inquiriesthat we're getting from Brandy clicks,
the conversion rate is phenomenal.
And I think the only,the only reason I can put on to this after
doing a lot of studying on it,is they doing a lot of questions
and getting all the information from theAI overview.

(27:37):
Then they then started saying,okay, who's the best company to do this?
And then it's citing your brand,which is normally it's
got dots underneath the brand name,the clicking onto the brand name,
which then opens up a new taband does a search for your actual brand,
and then the clicking through to your siteand then filling in the form.
And a lot of the time, though,we're getting so many times

(27:58):
where we're saying,you've been recommended from ChatGPT
or you've been recommendedGoogle's recommend.
They don't normally say Gemini,
they normally say Google's recommendedyou, and it's normally Gemini,
the AI overview that is basically sayingthese are the best company
and saying Google's recommendedyour recommended you.
How much are you?
And they're like very much bottomof the funnel.

(28:20):
They've done the research.
They know exactly what product lookthey want the way more informed
when they're filling in the inquiry.
And they're almost like,as long as you can meet the price
of whatwe want you to go in at the jobs yours,
because we know it's almost like thatthird party validation,
the no trusting AI like it'sa referral from a friend

(28:42):
that's coming throughand they're like just way more informed.
And so, so leads are downbut sales are up overall
because the quality that's comingthrough is a lot better.
I've seen the exact same thingwith our clients.
I agreewith your conclusion on why that is.
That's the same thing I would say as well.
What are you seeing as far asvolume of leads that come from AI?

(29:03):
So for example, what we see, generallyspeaking, is like if we have a client
that adds 200 leads from Google,they would maybe get two from AI total.
Like all the not including Google,I kind of keep them separate, but
because we don't really know with Googleand somebody comes in from Google,
whether it was AI,whether it's AI overview, whether it was
AI mode, like we have no idea.
But compared to like Claude ChatGPT,you know, some of the other llms,

(29:28):
they generally end up being likenot even 2% of what Google is, is that
have you seen a similar kind of numberor what do you say?
We initially so it was about 0.6% of leads
that came through from ChatGPTand other Llms.
It is rising slightly,but when I'm saying rising, it's
like it's gone to like I think it's 0.9%.

(29:50):
I think we're at about 1.3%, butdon't like it might even be 1.4% of leads
overall.
However, the big caveat is our brandedsearch is up.
So if you then try to start appendingbranded search,
but which I do believe is from AI, then
it is a lot more like 15 to 20%if you counted them in, but it's still

(30:12):
it's still very small onthe grand scheme of things in comparison
to Google search, still in Googlebusiness profiles and so on and so on.
Yeah, and I'm not really in the business
of predicting the future,but I remember hearing about a year ago
at an SEO conference that if ChatGPTkept their level of growth.
So assuming they continued to growat the same rate

(30:32):
that they could actually overtake Googlein four years.
Now, that was a year ago,which means now we're talking three years.
I personally can't imagine a scenariowhere that would happen
because I'm like that.
The math is just not computing.
And what we are seeing at Sterling Skyin the last month or two
is that ChatGPT leads are dropping.

(30:53):
We've seen thisas of like the last few months.
And then in the last month or so,Claude leads all of a sudden are coming
out of nowhere like we were never gettingClaude leads before.
And now all of a sudden,we're getting a bunch.
And this is exactly what happenedabout a year ago with ChatGPT.
We were, like,not getting any leads from ChatGPT.
And then all of a sudden, ChatGPT,
like, exploded,and we started getting leads from there.
Is that what you wereseeing trend wise as well?

(31:47):
So it's
definitely going to beI don't even think he'll get even 10%.
Nowhere neareven 10% of what Google searches myself.
Yeah,I don't think Google's going anywhere.
At least that's not what the data saysat this point in time.
So that's that's good news for us in SEO,
although I'm fine to pivotto a different channel if that happens.

(32:08):
Is there anything differentthat you would need to do to show up
on Claude versus ChatGPT?
Like, is there any major differencesbetween those two?
Very, very,
very similar to Gemini, theAI overviews and Claude,
I think the both is using Google searchmainly,
and ChatGPT is all over the place.

(32:30):
So it was, it was using initiallyit was using quite a lot of Google search.
And then I don't know what's going onwith the lawsuit now with surprise
and stuff like that.
And whether they're not using it as much,they're using obviously Bing
and whether they've got their own in-housein like search, like Knowledge Graph
and using a lot more of the training datapotentially.

(32:53):
But for live searches, I don't know.
It just seems all over the placeat present.
And, and I think that people are startingto clock onto it,
if I'm being honest, I think that's why
we're using it slightly lessthat the results that they're giving out,
I don't think are as good as what Claudeand what Gemini is giving out.
And and I thinkthey're going to lose the race.

(33:13):
I think they've got by far the most users.
But I think long termpeople are going to start moving
more and more towards Gemini,moving more and more towards Claude.
And I don't see ChatGPT being lunch.
And it takes a lot longerfor ChatGPT to pick up any sort of
when you do start getting rankingsor there's a new piece of article,

(33:34):
it takes a lot longer for ChatGPTto pick it up than Claude and Gemini.
And whether that's because Bingindexing is taking a lot longer.
So the index now versus Googlebotis nowhere near as sophisticated.
So like I don't knowif it's to do with that.
I honestly don't know the answer to why.
I just know ChatGPT, in my opinion,is a long way behind Claude and Gemini.

(33:59):
The quality lately has been prettyterrible for me, and I can say antidotes.
People I talked to outside of the C0industry are also starting to say that
they're like, oh yeah, ChatGPT is like,quality is really terrible.
The answers it gives,I can tell you it's really terrible local.
So trying to find a local businesswith ChatGPT
like we see it still sourcingthings like MapQuest.
I'm like, that's your data source?

(34:20):
Like no wonder years old or terrible.Yeah.
I think that's where the.
Money that Google's invested in the maps.
I think that's where they're going to waitlong term.
Gemini is 100% on the win there isbecause they've got the most data.
So like the that the map, what they haveand all the entities and the knowledge
graph and the knowledge vault and theinformation of what they have at its core.

(34:43):
So it doesn't even need to go outlooking at live search.
It's got it within the knowledge vault.
That's where Bing doesn'thave that information like Google does.
And the amount of money that spent on it,
ChatGPT is going to have
to use that data or try and find a wayof getting that data.
And it has to be using Googlebecause it's by far
the most sophisticated,unless they teamed up with Apple Maps.

(35:05):
But again, that's nowhere nearas sophisticated as Google Maps.
So it's just I just can't see themwinning the race long term
because of the dataand the knowledge of what Google has.
It's true, the number of reviewsthey have, all the data
they have on driving directions,all the data they have on foot traffic.
Like it's wild.
They have data on everybodyall over the world,

(35:26):
especially if you have an android man.They know everything about you.
If you have an android and like
that's not data that's publicly invisible,that's publicly visible anywhere, right?
Like they'll know
if you called a business from Google Maps,like they just they know a lot.
And I agree that that is what makesGoogle's local search results quality,
right.
It's what makes it hard for fakelistings to rank, even though they do.

(35:49):
You know, Google'salways trying to kind of make that better.
So I fully agree I'm going to changetopics a bit.
I want to start talking about
kind of traditional SEO stuff,
because I think this is whereyour knowledge base with how many websites
that you have worked onis really, really going to be good.
So let's talk about something like reallysimple like your all structure okay.
So let's for consistencystick with this roofer

(36:10):
your roofer in Kansas Cityyou want to create pages on your website.
What is your stance on.
Do you want longer URLs.
Do you want all your keywords in your URL?
Do you want your city in your URL?Do you want folders?
Sorry, there's a lot of questions, butwhat is your stance on how to craft a URL?
So I want the main entitiesin the attributes put into the URL,

(36:33):
but I want it as short as possible,but I want all of the main entity in
put in there.
So if it's your doinglet's say slate roofing in
and then it's in a specific area.
So it could be in New York let's sayour Kansas City, whatever you want.
Then you need tomake sure you've got slate.
You need to make sureyou've got refinishing.
You need to make certainyou've got Kansas City put in there.

(36:55):
So but but then doing thesome people I've seen some people
having like ten words in the URLstructure, shorter URL are better.
But that doesn't mean then just put in
let's say just forward slash slateand not having the area
if it is for specificfor a for a location.
So getting all the main termsthe main engrams put onto there is key.

(37:17):
But try and having itas short as possible.
That's been a struggle of minebecause we have seen that adding things
like near you into a URL,adding the state into the Ural,
like other things like that, helpyou rank better for those things.
So it's actually hard.
I'm definitely guiltyof having horrifically long
ULS because we have a listof all these things,
and I'm like, well,I know if I put that thing in the USL,

(37:39):
not only does it help the URL rank,it helps the GBP rank better.
So why do you say shorter is better?
Near me?
I do like I do like naming.
So like my URL structure.Just so you understand that.
I'll give you the example.
So if it's Dooley's roofing right.

(38:00):
It would then be it wouldthen have the, the the topic.
So let's say flat roofing.
So I do is roofing.uk/flat.
I won't put roofing in the gamecuz it's already got roofing in there.
Forward slash.
And it does have a near me.
So then it's got net forwardslash near me.
But that's onlybecause then from the breadcrumbs
it can link back to all the locationsof what we do on the Near me page.

(38:23):
So he's got forward slash near meand then county forward slash town.
So if it's if it'sI don't know how it works.
Over in the US I'm mainly on to do theUK, but in the UK it would be
Wilmslow which is within
Cheshirewhich is in the near me domination.
So it's the local, the toplike the service that we do with the.

(38:44):
But I'm on about like what I
then wouldn't do is I've followedslash flat for flat roofing forest
near me, forward slash and then the areaand at the end some people putting in like
flat roofing specialists contractorin Wilmslow, Cheshire.
And I'm like I don't then do all the endspart of the URL.
I try and keep it as shortand sweet as I can.

(39:04):
And how do you decideif you need to create a page for something
on a city level?
So let's say for example, againsticking with the roofing example, but
like you've got a metal roofing pageand maybe you need a metal roofing page
for Kansas City,but you've got pages for 15
smaller towns around Kansas City.
Do you also need a metal roofing pagefor each of those?

(39:26):
Even if the search volume is like,you know, three three searches a month.
So it
all comes down to popularitysearch volume.
And if the search for itand you are not ranking in position number
one for metal roofing in Kansas City,and you've only got a roofing
roofing page in Kansas City,but not a metal roofing,

(39:48):
and you think that that is a very,very important, profitable keyword.
Well, let me revert this back to you.
If someone said to you that metal roofing
can make $300,000
for an installation of a metal roof,and you want all them inquiries,
and there was only three inquiriesa month of researches a month.

(40:11):
Would you want them inquiry?
So of course you would.
Therefore, at times you might wantto set up a different page for it.
However, you do need to look at the Serp.
You need to look at as anybody elsebroken down the page.
There's somebody else other metal roofing,Kansas City, do they not?
What if they don't?
Then it could be an opportunity.
If they do,then you should definitely do it.

(40:32):
But if they don't,could you potentially put it off site?
So what you could end up
doing is doing a press releaseor a guest post off your site.
So you're not wastingcrawl budget on your own site,
but you're trying to rank iton a guest post and it links back
saying why Joe Hawkins Roofing is the bestmetal roofing company that there is,

(40:53):
so he's still
hopefully going to get them inquiriesand it just goes through to your Roofing
Kansas City page.
I think too many people look at topicalmaps or semantic content networks
and think it's all about what contentthat should have on their site,
and they're not looking at itfrom a backlink profile or third party
corroboration and looking at, okay,I don't want to break this page

(41:15):
down on my website,but I do want to rank for it.
Could I rank for italmost like parasite SEO?
Could I rank for iton another person's website,
which says why I'm the bestand link through to me, which means
I'm going to get the inquiriesand I'm not wasting the crawl budget.
And it's talking about a very specifictopic that I want to rank for.
So talking about service areapages, that's the concept

(41:37):
of having like a pagetargeting a specific city.
What kinds of thingsdo you put on a service area page like,
is there like a list of thingsyou'd want to include?
Yeah for sure.
So the obviously I always tryand look at you
could you could ask AI for this as wellbecause it varies on the service.
But you basically turn around and say,if someone's looking for

(41:58):
a roofing company,a metal roofing company in Kansas City,
what are the main attributesthat they're looking for?
So I probably say the number one attribute
of what someone's looking forwhen the initial inquiry is the cost.
So you've got to make certain
that you gain the cost on the page,then maybe the specifications.
Or is there any different types of metalthat's being used on metal roofing.

(42:20):
So the specification, the costsand then might be other things
like how fast can the install.So especially if it's like
say like a locksmitha locksmith would be about speed.
Like even more than the cost element.
The main attribute ishow quick can you get out?
This is an emergencythat I want you to get out.
So my first H2 could behow long is it before like to have in

(42:43):
Manchester can come in a tendersor something like that.
And we're going
we've got 24 over seven call out,we'll be with you within the hour
because that's the main pain point ofwhat they have that can help them convert.
The second one down would be cost,but for me of others,
speed doesn't matteras much as generally directed by
okay cost is the most important attributeand then the work that way down.

(43:06):
If what else might they want to know?
What's the benefits of having this?
And is there any fundingavailable for this.
And you think of all the questionsthat that user might have
that's looking for that metal roofingKansas City.
And that's kind of how I start by the H2.
What questions do they haveand what's the most important,
which is prominence, popularityand the what the other one is.

(43:28):
But we we sort in prominence mainlyon the on the heading hierarchy asking
so they don't need to leave that pagethe ready now to say, okay, I want,
I want a quote,I want a price from this company.
And then the filling in the form.
Okay, so what if that sounds great?
It sounds like you would end upwith a solid metal
roofing page for Kansas City,but now you want, you know, 15

(43:51):
other cities around Kansas City,and you want pages for those two.
Do you copyall the same wording or what do you do?

(44:54):
Yeah.
So you'll probably end up with pages
that are 80 to 90% the same, minusthe city, minus a few little details.
I know we talked about this in London,but I have not found that to be a problem.
I think you said the same thing,like duplicate content
is one of the most misunderstood things,because these are not
actually competing for the same queries,so they're not a problem.
But what if you have a clientthat has 1000 of them now

(45:18):
and you scale it up to that?
At what point do you think it could bea problem or is there no limit?
So there's not a problem.
There's a phone or 20 pages.
However, anyone who's watching this,if you went and click this little bit
now and I and it says JamesDooley says you can do 2000 pages
of duplicate content on your websiteand you'll be absolutely fine.

(45:38):
I am partially saying that you will befine if you have enough credible, yet
you're 1212 times good usersthat are coming through to that page
or having a good time.
Like, yes,you can have 2000 duplicate pages.
There's only so manyif you made I always use this example.
So if you if you're a Pizza Expressor a Domino's Pizza

(45:59):
and you provide pepperoni pizza,
how can you try to explain that youdeliver a pepperoni pizzas any different?
And not only that is the peoplethat try to make it unique.
It sounds garbage like get in the mainlike what you do.
Okay, we we make pepperoni pizzasand we deliver it.
Right? Okay. That'sthat's all you need to say.

(46:19):
And whether you do it in 500 differentlocations or a different locations,
do you deliver pepperoni pizzasin that suburb or area? Yes.
Therefore we want to rank for that.
Therefore,do I need to write unique content? No.
However, you need to make certainthat overall the brand is trusted
to many people.
Then go, oh,so you're telling me I can do 10,000

(46:42):
duplicate pages on a brand new demandthat's got no trust, that's got no
like it's like, no,because you're not going to get an index.
So you've got a crawl budget problem.
It's not the content that's the problem.
The fact that because the geolocationof Kansas City and New York,
these different intent to that,it doesn't matter.

(47:02):
You just need to get the geolocationelement to be different,
and therefore it doesn't matterthat it's duplicate content.
Yeah.
I asked the right the same question.
Her answer is quite different than yours.
But I would say actuallywhat you're describing is what I see
most often in local
because I see we have a we have one clientthat has like 1100 of these.
It's a huge brand though,like massive brand.

(47:24):
I think they're fine.
I don't think they're goingto have any issues.
There's a small part of me that's like,you know, if Google ever decided
to classify these pages, that wouldthat would be a huge problem for them.
But as of right now,
because they do actually have so manyphysical locations for each service area,
they're fine, like their brandsearch is really, really, really good.
Or I think I've seen the oppositescenario is there was one guy

(47:45):
that messaged me on the local search foruma couple of years ago,
and they got nailed with a manual penalty,which I have not seen often,
and he had 3000 pages, mostly the same,and it was in the UK
and it was a lead gen site,and so I don't know if they had any brand,
but yeah,
he that's I think what people often dolike you said, they just

(48:08):
they get a new site, a new brandand they do this.
And I've had a client that was a law firmthat did that, and he was like,
it was a small site, maybe 200 pages.
He doubled his pagesand created all these service area pages
throughout the entire state,
and they all just got not indexedlike it failed horribly.
I told him it was fail,but he didn't want to hear that.

(48:30):
On on on.
The answer to it is from testing.
From actual testing.
The algorithms duplicate content ranksbetter
than trying to spin the content,and that's when physical testing.
However, if you want to listen to peoplethat talk on stage and talk about
you need to have unique content,they will tell you that
every page needs to be uniqueand every page needs to be different.
And that's what Google wants.

(48:51):
I disagree from from if it's the sameservice in a different area.
Why do you need to then?
All these people are spinning.
Spinning the articles andthe original article was the best article.
That's what you do.
That's who you serve.They are your prices.
Why do I need to write it?
Unique from one area to another area
and people go, oh, you shouldn'tdo all the different service pages.

(49:13):
But we cover all in different areas.
So someone in roofing in New York,they want to see a Roofing
in New York page and the informationabout roofing in New York.
They don't want to see itthat it's roofing in Florida.
They go, oh, we also cover at thevery bottom of the page in New York.
Like, well,that's not what I searched for.
So the intent is a lot better.

(49:33):
And again, it comes down to nav boostexperience on the site,
backlink profile,trust of the brand and stuff like that.
And if you've got the trust and peoplehaving a good time on your site,
like look at Google, Google,say we're all about the user.
And if the user experiencewhen they go through to
that page is good and positive,they'll keep it.
If it's not, and it's a load of garbage

(49:54):
and it's spun content,then they're not going to keep it.
Yeah.
So you actually inspired me to do a test
internally on service area pagesbecause of this conversation that we had.
And I guarantee you,the majority of the sites that we look at
do have all their service area pageswith different content, like,
and they do the exact same.
I'm sure they used AI,or they had a human writer reword it
because they're like terrified of thisconcept of having the same content.

(50:16):
So we took a bunch of those from clientsand we made them all the same.
We picked the best performing page,and then
we copied that page on the other onesand they all improved.
So it's like really funny.
It's actually your face is in mymy presentation for SEO Spring Training.
And I'm like,I got this idea from James Dooley.
We tested it and this is what we saw.

(50:38):
So I feel like that'skind of a really out there concept,
but it makes so much sensebecause if you have all
the right wordsand all the semantic relevance
and everything,why would you want to reword that?
That makes no sense.
You're actually making your pages worse.
And the funny thing is that manual penaltystory of that thousands of pages
site in the UK, they were reworded.

(51:00):
So all 3000 pages were not the same.
They were the same like reallywhen you looked at them. But they were.
They reworded like the two paragraphsof text on every single one.
And the guy told mehe paid a human to do that.
I'm like, oh my goodness,
right?
And he's like, why would you penalize me?
It's not duplicate content.
I'm like, oh, you were missing this.
Yeah.

(51:21):
It doesn't matterif it's the same words or not.
Yeah, definitely.
Just like I get the whole industrysays every page should be unique.
I get this thing content, penaltiesand all the rest of it.
But from testing,duplicate content does better.
And it's not really.
It's just showing you different servicesin different areas of what you're doing.
I think Google will just say,is that right?
And is that best for the user?

(51:41):
Yes, it is thereforelike I don't need to reword every page.
It's justit just seems and we've done a lot at it.
It's not even like I said to youin the mastermind,
we've done a lot of testingbecause I wanted to try.
It just made sense for every pageto be unique, to be better.
And it just wasn't.
Duplicate was beating it.And I'm like, why?
Why is duplicate beating it?And surely not.

(52:02):
And I'm like, exactly what you just said.
Semantic relevance.
Exactly written exactly the way peoplelike to have it and stuff like that.
And yeah. Duplicate. Well.
Yeah, it's so funny.
It's such a crazy concept,but it's so true.
And I would saythe majority of the industry
doesn't either think that way,but I think they don't think that way
because they're not understanding itor they haven't tried it or tested it.

(52:24):
Let's talk about the algorithmupdates from the last year.
So core algorithm updates are somethingthat historically speaking
personally I have not seen weresuper impactful on small business sites.
Now that I should say to clarify,not talking about lead gen sites, I'm
talking about like,
you know, a business in the US,most of our clients are in the US.

(52:46):
They have a site,they have traffic to that site.
We would see like small thingswith core updates up and downs.
Nothing hugelydramatic until the last year.
Last year
has been like a big roller coasterfor a lot of small businesses.
What have you seen from,
let's just say, the last year or so,like the 2025 and maybe 2026 so far?

(53:06):
Core updates.
Google search
brand these key like brand signalsis becoming really, really important.
And I think a lot of MDand PMS have been dropping slightly.
MD still work brilliantly by the way,but have been dropping slightly to
branded sitesthat are coming along and winning.
And I think a lot of that comes backdown to the AI overview again.

(53:27):
So like if someone is
the issue is if you've got an MDand you get cited in the AI overview.
If you're not ranking number onefor your exact
match domain, you might be showing up inthe AI of view.
Is being the bestroofing roofing company in Kansas City,
but it might come through as being KansasCity Roofing.

(53:48):
Com. Right.And when you click, it won't be.
It'll just say Kansas City Roofing.
And when you click on to that,
if you're not ranking numberone for Kansas City Roofing,
which looks likeit's going to be a brand search,
the one that ranks number one ends upgetting those clicks
for somebody else's AI overview.
And so I think brandis becoming important.

(54:10):
I think social media is actually growingnow that Facebook
and Instagram being indexed,I think that's becoming more important.
I think in local
every month I seem to be saying it,but every month
it just seems to be growingmore and more in local is Reddit and this.
And to become higher and higher upQuora, the discussions and forums,

(54:31):
Facebook groups.
And so I think there's theI think in certain
industries,the industries are changing quite a lot.
Video is another big one.Like video is key.
Like I would say, videos right up therewith being one of the number one
strategies that if you're not doing video,you should be doing video in 2026.

(54:54):
Like YouTube is absolutely workinglike gangbusters.
And then obviously you can slice it downinto YouTube shots and stuff like that.
So many of them now
seem to be getting YouTubelike video carousels and stuff like that.
So in a lot of us,
like even the short video carouselsis even started to pop up as well.
So yeah, I mean, the times have changed.

(55:16):
I think you just got to adaptwith the times.
And I think there's a there'sa lot of people that are like demoralized,
that are annoying
and some people that are frustrated,but then that's the world we live in.
Things are going to change,and you've just got to adapt
very quickly and see what's working intoday's algorithms.
Got it.
Now talking about things

(55:36):
that impact rankingyou mentioned link building a few times.
Are linksless effective than they used to be?
Okay.

(56:08):
I'm not saying it's irrelevant.
That's that's incorrect way of saying it.
However, let me put a caveat on this.
I believe that link building in generalfor for its
traditional senseof page rank distribution
being syndicated throughout the siteand coming around has diminished.
However, I feel the emphasis of third

(56:29):
party corroborative sources i.e.
pages talking about who you areand what you do and saying why
you actually listicles on third partywebsites mentioning your brand has become
really important, and reviews and stuffthat has become really important.
So you still need to be getting noise
around your website, offsite as much as possible.

(56:51):
But the whole chasing De 50 do followings.
I don't think that's neededas much as it used to be anymore.
I've seen this trendin the last few years as well.
I can't tell you how many small businessowners are not aware of this trend.
Like they still talk about linksand they still talk about domain
reading domain authority.I'm like, guys, this doesn't matter.

(57:12):
And the other trend we're startingto see a lot in the last year
is that actually the potentialfor links harming you has increased
so substantially to the pointwhere now it's like when you're risking
and then you've got to like weighthe reward versus the rear waste.
The rewards already been going down
for the last few years,but now the risk is also like way higher.

(57:32):
So I yeah, link building is one ofthose things that I've scaled back a lot.
And I think it's it's interesting,
but I don't think the rest of the industryis necessarily caught up with that yet.
I don't.
Think a lot of people track stuffin of our test things enough.
I think what people do is the follow upechoes and treat it as the gospel

(57:53):
and treat it as the truth.
And some of these people don'ttest themselves.
They're going from one conference
to another conferenceand talking on stage,
and they've never rankeda website in the life.
And that's the horriblepart of the SEO industry, is
that there's not enough people out therethat do research and development.
That's testing in today's algorithms,
and the amount of peoplethat have called out privately

(58:14):
because I don't like calling anybody outpublicly, but privately,
I've reached out to them and says,when the last time you tested that,
because all my test resultsshow up opposite and they go, I'm
not tested it for a few years.
I'm like,you mean you probably never tested it?
But even if you're not testingfor a couple of years, it's out of date.
Like literally, you need to be rewritten.
So many of our things every three months.

(58:36):
There's some of them.
We could literally retest them at presentevery few weeks.
Like, is it still working?What's working better?
Because otherwisewe were just wasting money.
If it's not working, butthe amount of people, it's embarrassing.
The amount of people that are going fromone event to another and talking on stage
and rehashing other people's information,that's just completely false
and incorrect.

(58:56):
And I feel sorry for some of these peoplethat are starting out in SEO
that are going by in these doctor 50 dofollow links, which is harming the site.
And I think the toxicI don't think the good.
I think people have built PBN networksand know when people reach out to them
because they've done certainlike right for us kind of terms.
A genuine link building agenciestrying to do guest post is outreaching to

(59:18):
what they feel is a legitimate site,and it's a PM
and they're just buying linksfor a guest post
which looks they think it's okaybecause the doctor, 55,
which is the PBS network,part of the Bad Link neighborhood,
and people don't know the differencebetween a toxic link and a good link.
And it's horriblebecause everyone looks at it via doctor,
and it's the most manipulated metricthat there is out there.

(59:40):
And I think it's a disgrace.
I remember going to a lot of C.O.conferences.
I would go around to the vendorsand I would
look at some of their networks of linksthey were selling.
And like you said, it looked likethey were news sites or like,
you know, sitesthat were good places to post an article.
And I would pull them inand look at the data on the sites
and I'm like,oh my God, these sites are tanking.
Like all of them are tanking.They don't rank anywhere anymore.

(01:00:02):
So Google has caught this PBNbecause that's exactly what they were.
But they sell like crazy.
And we're starting to see like moreand more small businesses that did this.
Not even just recently like years ago.
And they're getting nailed now for them,which is unfortunate.
Like part of me is like, wow, Googletook a long time to catch up with that.

(01:00:22):
But then part of me is like,
I don't think peopleare concluding the right things
because they're looking at stuff
they've done recently and they're like,what did I do recently?
That's bad?
I'm like, actually, it'ssomething you did like four years ago.
All these linksyou bought or built or whatever.
Now they're tankingand your sites tanking as a result.
My piece of advice, I think for people,if they want to know if a tactics works,
see if it's worked for like five years,you know what I mean?

(01:00:44):
Like,rather than just looking at the last year,
because that's another thingthat I've been seeing a lot lately.
A lot of case studies about,
like these geo tacticsand stale scaled content
where they're like, oh, we're goingto publish 2000 pages of content using AI.
Look at how great this site is rankingif you look for the year.
Yeah, like the site's ranking.
Great. Check it in another year.
And it's like completely gone.
So it depends on, I guess,what type of business you want, right?

(01:01:06):
If you don't care
about your site crashing,then you can be as aggressive as you want.
If you are looking to build a businessthat's going to be around in 20 years
and you don't want to change domain names,then you need a very different approach.
So the types of businesses we work withare usually the long
term ones that are not looking to crashand burn their domain,
which is, you know what a lot of thesetactics will do, unfortunately.

(01:01:30):
Yeah.
I think another bit of adviceis with regards to when you spoke about
link building is with regardsto listicles or comparison articles.
I would be doing these on third parties,I would be doing the listicles,
I would be doing the comparison.
Because if you don't control thatnarrative, somebody else will.
So I, I call itproactive reputation management.

(01:01:53):
I don'tI think like you want to be controlled
because what ends up happeninga lot of times is
let's say someone comes to you, joy, andthey're looking for local SEO in New York.
And then the goal to somebody else,write an ABC SEO,
and they go to them and they go to 5or 6 of us, but they don't
between you and your $10 a monthand they're $10,000 a month.

(01:02:16):
What are they doing to decidewho they're going to go with?
There are lots of case studies.
They're happy with both, both of you.
The problem is going to go to eyeand probably asked who's better in in
Joe Harkins SEO or ABC SEO?
And if you don't start controlling thatnarrative of why you might be better,
and looking at the USpiece of why you might be better,
that could be the difference

(01:02:37):
between your winning and losing a job,or the client just not going ahead.
Because I think there's a classic sayingthat a customer has got three choices,
and it's in this scenarioit could be to buy from you.
It could be to buy from a competitoror just not take any action at all.
And I think if the if it's inconclusivethat you are not the best

(01:03:00):
or why you can provide value, somany of them just don't take any action.
So I feel like trying to getthat third party corroboration of why
you are the best and what you can deliver,and shout and screaming about the awards
that you've won in the casestudies that you've done,
and how you can helpmaybe recover websites
and you do everything in a white,traditional way, will help that business

(01:03:22):
owner to then say, okay, Joe Hawkinsis the business that I want to go with.
Yeah, I agree, it's
like self-promotion is kind of necessarybased on what you've described.
So we're talkingwe were talking about about obviously
there'sa lot of bad apples in the industry.
So who personally would you recommendfollowing for like to learn about SEO?
Like what?
Who's who's putting a really good contentor ideas and stuff

(01:03:46):
that that's worth following.People are looking to follow more people.

(01:04:21):
People like that.
But then on semantic content networksor how to properly structure content,
these people like Kyle Roof and Core,who are phenomenal people.
However, there probably tooadvanced for business owners to
to learn from because what they do is likeit's a hundred our course,

(01:04:42):
and even after you've done it 2 or 3times, it's still very hard to understand
who like what's good,but I suppose it's a bad answer.
But for us,we go to a lot of the conferences,
but we're doing a lot of mastermindsaround the conference.
So obviously Mean Self met in London.
We had a great mastermind group.
Not knowledge is being shared there.

(01:05:03):
And sometimes the stuff that peopleare sharing on social
media are on conference or unconference.
Stages are out of date.
And I think sometimes the mastermindsis where you're going to learn
all the private chats with peoples,where you're going to learn the true
things of what's working intoday's algorithm that they're not willing
to share publicly.

(01:05:24):
But like I'd say, reach out to peoplelike yourself.
You're very well connected.
So if someone came who's watching thisand says, I want to know more about
knowledge panels or semantic SEO,I'll link building our local SEO.
You're a very, very well connected person,so I'll allow you to distribute that.
Who who you think's going out.
I appreciate that you'll know whoI recommend because honestly our local

(01:05:46):
you conferences that we put on,like I handpicked the speakers.
So I invite peopleI got to get you one of these times.
I know you're not in this year, JS,but like,
maybe I'll send your next year's dateswell ahead of time.
I was tryingI was. Trying to get to get to it.
Obviously I appreciate the offerand I was trying to get there, but
just it's just I'mjust so busy at present.

(01:06:06):
I've got three kids under five. It's it's.
I've been there.
Tough time. Yeah. It gets better.
That's mythat's my parental advice for you.
The chaos doesn't last.
I wanted to
ask you as far as a brand new website.
So you've got a new website and you'retrying to rank on Google typically.
How long do you see that it takes?

(01:06:30):
The balance is it depends on the niche.
But in.
Worst case.
Say what.
So law firms can take in local areas.
I'm on about hereso a lot more firm in a look.
He could take 4 to 6 months okay.
And startpicking up inquiries and doing stuff.

(01:06:52):
You can you can do it fasterif you're using like an age demand.
Are you being quite aggressiveon the link building.
But the only issue isif you did go aggressive on link
building to get it, you, then long termit's probably not going to work.
And the small initial like roofing
or plastering or plumbing,you could be generating leads.
I've known it within a couple of weeks.

(01:07:13):
But again,it all just depends on the areas
and how deep you go with the keywordresearch and where you go in.
If you just went roofing in an area,it can be tough, but if you go in
metal roofingthen it could be much easier.
So it's you again.
You've just got to tryand do all the signals.
So you build the site,you build the location pages,

(01:07:36):
you maybe build a dozen of the blog post
pages that you think are most relevantto what needs to be done.
You start building up socialsas much as possible.
We do what's called a dollar a daystrategy, where what we'll try to do
is if we've got a good article,I would think that's good.
We would share it on social mediaand spend like a couple of dollars

(01:07:59):
on boosting it,which links back to the site.
Like, I'd probably sayI spoke to you before and I said, like,
YouTube is important in my opinion,the number one ranking factor
in Google is traffic.
If you can get traffic throughto your site like it is absolute winner.

(01:08:20):
CTR works great, but then I don't want meto in CTR manipulation
because Google is very goodat detecting proxies and stuff like that.
It's blackout strategy,but if you can naturally try
to start getting traffic from social mediaand doing some doing some killer posts.
So like I've just been speakingactually this morning to Brian Deane

(01:08:41):
to remember battling cold.
Yeah.
Well, he's just he's just soldanother bit.
It's so true of his businesses.
He's playing a lot of tennis. Okay.
I'm going to go over.
Say anything in a while.
But I used to follow all of this stuff.
Yeah.
So he's he's in Spain at presentand I'm going to go over
another game of tennis with him,another catch up and stuff like that.
But he created somehe created some killer articles

(01:09:04):
back in the day of like all the rankingfactors and stuff like that.
But like when you goand create a huge article
which everyone's talking about,or it could be if you're in roofing,
it could be some data studies of how longcertain roofs last or something like that
that people might want to know about,and then you can share it on socials

(01:09:27):
and physically be boosting iton LinkedIn, on Twitter,
on Facebook, and spendinga couple of dollars to get those likes.
Get the comments and all.We get the click through to the site.
Those clicks through tothose site is so important.
I cannot stress you enoughhow much getting some clicks
from real peoplethat have gone and click through is huge.

(01:09:49):
And like, I don't know if you ever followa guy called Dennis, you, So he.
He's he. Talks about it quite a lot.
He calls it the dollar day strategy.
Like he he's great on that front.
Like he's very good at paidads and stuff like that, but like getting
a few articles shared on socialand getting the viability
and doing all the core basics, which I'msure you're doing, like citations,

(01:10:13):
getting as many business listedas possible, repeating the nap.
So the name, address and phone numberis many different third party
places as possibleto get the referral domain count up.
No follow linksjust for mixing up your anchor text
and press release can work well.
There's a few different pressrelease providers that you can do

(01:10:34):
just talkingabout how you've launched your new office,
or you've launched the new service again,just to get the exposure
of the brand mentions.
I'm not even true about itwhen we're about the links.
I'm not sure about the links,about the branded mentions
and stuff like that that can come backand just create as much noise as possible.
And yeah, you can get,you can get we've had some age domains

(01:10:55):
that within 24 hourswe've got rankings and inquiries.
But again, that's quite difficultin choosing the right age
demand that has thatadd a bad toxic link profile.
And is it good? Is it good.
So you've got to be careful on that front.
But from a new site it can be.
Yeah within within a few weeksand smaller niches
in 4 to 6 months on bigger issues.

(01:11:17):
Yeah, that'snot nearly as bad as what I was expecting.
What are some SEO tactics
that used to work and no longer do?
Oh, that's so funny.
Yeah, yeah.
For sure.

(01:12:03):
But trying to get into ranking
ideally in the top ten then it's good.
But there's still so many peoplethat are just going out
buying 50 links and just if anything,their harming the site.
And it's it's horrible to see in here.
Now you mentioned traffic is huge.
So let's say you're a small businessand you're
running a huge Google Ads accountand then you stopped.

(01:12:26):
Would you expect thatto have an impact on your SEO?
Yeah.
As much as without this debatea million times in the industry.
Over the last.
15 years that I've been in it,does PPC affect SEO, right?
And I believe Google,when they say the PPC team
do not speak to the team,the two different departments.
And because because.

(01:12:47):
You're worrying
PPC doesn't then mean we go, oh,we're going to increase your rankings.
I believe what they say, they're right.
However, the clicks from the PPCand the engagement
and the nav boost and the time on siteand the page is being visited
and the user signals of what even PPCbrings
back 100% affects rankings.

(01:13:10):
And I've seen it time and time and timeagain.
It affects rankings.
And nobody can tell me that it doesn't,because I've got too much data
to prove to you that it helpsand it affects rankings.
And again,but it comes down to the user signals.
Also, let's change the caveat from PPC.
If you're on Twitter ads consistentlyand you stop
running Twitterads, your site starts to drop.

(01:13:32):
If you're on Facebook ads and you stop,you start to drop slightly
the the traffic and the engagementand the viability and the dwell time
and the number of signals is key,is absolutely is key.
And I've got so much data on it.It's unbelievable.
Like we've
but I used to be obsessed with backlinksand now I'm obsessed with viability

(01:13:52):
and time and site and trying
to get as many different peoplecoming through to the website as possible.
That's fascinating.
But you said, like,
your ad budget doesn't need to be largeif you're advertising on X or Instagram
or whatever,like you said, a dollar a day.
Something like that.
It could just be a.
Little bit as long as it's tricklingtraffic coming through from different and
and also what we found is from the moredifferent sources you can do it from.

(01:14:14):
So if you're doing something LinkedInand doing something Pinterest, let's say
Reddit ads, Quora ads, anywhereyou can try and run
little bits of attitudeto get you back, though obviously
don't just go wasting that moneyjust to try and increase rankings.
Try and do it that you can actually target
the right peoplethat might want to inquire.
You might actually get inquiries from it,you know what I mean?

(01:14:35):
So you want the right peoplecoming through, but.
Spending your.
Little bit on ads on these differentplatforms is an indirect
ranking factor with Google,because of user signals 100%.
Okay. So I have a couple questions.
First one, I got to say thisfor all the PPC people listening.
So based on what you're saying,
most PPC people like sending their PPCtraffic to a different site, right?

(01:14:56):
You have your PPC landing pageand you have your main site for SEO.
So are they kind of screwing themselvesthen,
because they're literally
not sending any of those signals to thesite they want to rank? Yes.
And well,first of all, I would be asking why this?
And then it free to a different pageand then not normally what they'll say
is the conversion rate of the of the moneypage isn't good enough.

(01:15:18):
Well I mightwell then look at visual semantics
and try to startgetting that actual page to rank better.
Now you'll know the SEO team will arguewith the PPC team and say, well,
what needs to have this content?And they're going, what?
The content is no God.
And we want imagesand want it to look nice and convert.
You can still get a site
looking nice nowadays,like Google is good enough now at passing

(01:15:38):
content behind like some content behindaccordion tabs and stuff like that.
You still want to improveyour actual money page to convert,
and then you want to be running the PPCthrough to that money page.
Definitely.
This is going to be great.
I can't wait to show this toso many BBC people. I'm like, hey!

(01:16:16):
Talking about.
Yeah.That's the majority of PPC campaigns.
Just so you know, like a huge amountof them, they think they need a separate.
And business owners
think this, PPC agencies think this,they think they need a separate domain
for PPC because of the conversion pointsI don't like.
Oh this is great. Okay.
And then with social sites where you'redoing ads, there's a lot of options.

(01:16:39):
You've got Reddit, you've got X,you've got Instagram, you've got Facebook,
you've got YouTube which any
which what are your top three like thatyou would want to run ads on and why?
Well let me, let me,let me change the question. Right.
So go because it's too broad of a questionin the fact
that there's so many different new.
It's you could be a roofer, you could bea plumber, you could be an electrician.
Right.

(01:16:59):
So what I would sayis go and run on a model
and sign a small budget on a model,and you decide how many, like
how many clicksyou're getting from TikTok,
how many are you getting from Reddit,
how many getting from Quoraand stuff like that?
And if there's any conversions,get like a UTM tag,
and if any of them convert, you
might only get three clicks from LinkedIn,but one of them might have converted

(01:17:23):
and you might go,I only spent $5 and I had a conversion.
I'm happy to spend more on that.
So look what you go and look at it.
If your own demographic for your locationand niche
go out to a man and then decideand keep narrowing it down going.
Do you know what?
Quora wasn't very good.
You know what read it wasn't very good.

(01:17:43):
If if you have to pinpoint me on three,I would say meet
or doing Instagram, Facebook and Twitterwould probably be the best free.
And however, Facebookcan sometimes cost a little bit more
because there's a lot of people that do itbecause the ease of setting them up.
So sometimes you can get linked in.

(01:18:03):
Like sometimes LinkedIn of a weekendcan be really cheap
because everyone wants to run itMonday to Friday.
So you get LinkedIn ads over the weekendto be quite a bit cheaper.
But again, it just depends on the nicheand the demographic of
who you're going after of why,which ones you might want to run.
Now, you mentioned Quora,which I didn't mention.
Have you ever tried ones
and maybe I don't knowif these even exist in the UK,

(01:18:25):
but like Next Door or Yelpor like any other sites
that are smaller than the big giantsthat we've talked about.
Honest answer is, I don't know.
I'd have to ask the paid ads team.
I only know, like the main onesof what they're running.
I'm sure if there is other ads,
like we also run adswe're always looking for like, say, staff.

(01:18:45):
So I know that we're also running
on like LinkedIn for our staff,and we get them
to come through to the websiteand engage with the website.
Not not for me.
Even though it does help the SEO, we makecertain that it's not just here you are.
Here's your phone.
We want them to come through
and download the form for what they needto kind of then fill in and do stuff.
Just all that engagementand the amount of people
that's coming through from jobadvertising as well and stuff like that.

(01:19:08):
Are people doing branded searchbecause now
they're looking for jobs and stuff again,everything just elevates and lifts up.
It's all brand what can be done,but on the smaller ones,
I'd need to chat with the paid adsteam of where they're doing it.
I'd say anywherewhere you can get traffic, try it
and it will have an indirect ranking partbecause of the user signals.

(01:19:29):
It's just whether it's it's worththe spend.
That'swhat you've got to work out on the hour,
away of what you're spendingand what you're getting back for it.
And what are your tips forformatting the ad like?
Do you need to have an image?Do you need a video?
I assume based on what you're saying withtraffic, you would need to have a link,
which I'm not sure is always somethingthat's included.
And then like,what are you putting in the ad?

(01:19:51):
Or are you bragging about some awardyou want?
Or yeah, what are your tips on that?
So again, to start againyou just need to mix it up.
So from one industry to the next,if it is just bragging about an award,
I probably won't run adsbecause not many people are going to come
through and click through to that.
It's more like certainthings like giveaways or like.
So I'll give you an example where we runone and we know we've run it indefinitely.

(01:20:14):
And all of ourI can tell, you know, we have not done any
pretty much any SEO in the last six months
apart from running thisand all of our rankings have gone up.
We've been cited in LMS everywhere.
Everything's gone upand all what we did is on our home page,
we did a free kitchen design, right?

(01:20:34):
And it's kitchen remodel and is the niche,and we did a free kitchen design
and we sent them through to the home pageand we told them anything.
Look, if you want a free kitchen designclick through to this.
Otherwise if you inquired directly,it was 99 pounds for this kitchen design.
So many people coming through andI was what we just kept doing is kept

(01:20:54):
changing out the design of the kitchens,the image for the ads.
And then every so often we run like videoads and then we'd run like retargeting.
So like if did watch over 50%of the video, but I didn't click through.
We then show them different adsand stuff like that.
And now we spend about 3500 pounds

(01:21:15):
and months of like $5,000 a month on ads,and the volume of leads is in like,
we make a lot of profit on thison the social media ads from doing it.
But all of our CEOs
gone up and we've done nothing on SEOapart from social media ads.
So just little things like that.
When you start understanding thatyou went, okay, what else could I be doing

(01:21:37):
to not say, manipulate traffic,
but get more engagement is like it's key.
It's important.
Yeah.
So giveaways
would be a great example of onethat would clearly get people to click.
So I can see how that would work a lotbetter than like an award.
What would you do if you're a lawyer?

(01:21:58):
Sure.
I think I thinkwas just very matter of fact.
Like,are you looking for a divorce lawyer?
But then what we're doing is we,Facebook and stuff
that are very,very good at finding the audience for you.
So we call it Let It rip.
So we don't actuallyput an audience base in.
We just say Facebook, go and findwhat, what, what you're looking for.

(01:22:19):
And we've gotare you looking for a divorce lawyer?
And someone might have mentionedand if you mention it on like
messenger that,oh yeah, I'm going through a divorce.
I'm doing this and stuff like that.
Even just the mentions of it,then they know,
okay,we need to start targeting these people.
So I think it's just very matter of fact,we provide this service.
I don't think there's a giveaway on that.
I think it is just

(01:22:40):
if you're looking for a divorce lawyerin this area, this is what we can do.
Or if you're looking for a family lawattorney
for this, or have you had an accidentin the last 12 months,
get in touch with a personal injurysupplier and stuff like that.
So this stuff, just stuff like that,you might just capture people
still works out cheaper for the leadthan what it would be on PPC,
but you're getting lots of people seeingthe ads, engaging with the ads, and then,

(01:23:05):
clicking through and obviously engagingwith the site.
Question on lead quality.
And I'm curiousif you have a stance on this,
what drives better leads, local packor organic?
Depends on the niche.
So the I tell you why
the local pack does amazing.
Local partners. Amazing.

(01:23:25):
Because normally a lot of them are calls.
And if you've got that person
on the other end of the lineand you can speak to them,
then that is your 30%better than a cold web lead,
because 30 on average,which is astonishing
30% of leads that get filledin, you can't even get in touch with.
Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah.

(01:23:47):
Which is crazy.
So if it's a call A callsgenerally better than a cold Webley
because you've got them
physically on the line,you can get the information
and understand who they are andwhat they do and what they're looking for.
With regards to, the maps.
Yeah, the click through to the site
and then filling in the formand stuff like that converts.
Well, organic also can convert.

(01:24:07):
Well, I think it's more of the intentof the keyword of what they've searched
for, as opposed to map and website.
For me, I want
and I'm one of them people that I don't gofishing with a fishing rod,
I go fishing with a big net, and I catcheverything, every single fish that I can.
And then it's up to the CRM systemto segment what's a good lead

(01:24:28):
and what's not a good lead,to make certain that the right salespeople
are dealing with the right inquiriesthat are coming through.
Because I would say to you, Joyce,
I'm not an SEO, I'ma businessman that leverages SEO for me.
I love the sales funnels.
I love the once we've got the lead,how do we then convert that lead,
or how do we monetize that leadin some way, shape or form

(01:24:49):
because it might not fitwhat we specifically do.
But then couldwe cross out another service or down sell?
Or how can we get the most out of thislead possible?
That's what I love as well.
Like people are obsessed with conversionrate optimization of websites,
but they're not of looking at likespeed to lead.
How quick are you responding to that?

(01:25:09):
That lead that's coming in?
If it's more than a minute.
Well, you you're going to fall offbecause you need to be under.
Ideally, we want people respondingin under a minute of inquiry.
Coming through a minute.
Well, we've we've got a call center.
So we make a lot of moneyin the finance sector.
So we've got 112, 112salespeople in our call center

(01:25:29):
in living room in Manchesterand their KPI Dom 23 seconds from
23 seconds.
Okay. I don't know any of our clientsthat are that good.
So what is that's a good question.
Like if you don't respond to a leadin exits dead like what would you say?
Like what is the word.
It completely depends on the niche again.
So if you keep saying thatbut in so like mortgages.

(01:25:52):
So our call centers mortgages and financeand generally speaking
our mortgage brokersare open to use any lender.
Right. So once you've spoke to us.
You don't need to go elsewherebecause we can we can
then line you up with whichever lenderthat suits you best.
So at that point,if you if we speak to them

(01:26:13):
and you respond a minute later,that leads dead to you because they know
don't need to speak to youbecause they go, I've already got excited.
Thanks. You're like, well,you only acquired a minute ago.
Yeah, I've started itbecause we've already spoke to him.
So certain market is like another one'slocksmith, right?
If someone I mean normallynormally locksmiths of calls.

(01:26:34):
But if someone did inquire on a locksmithwe've got to respond instantly.
We need to ring them straight awayand find the problem.
Saying we can have somebody out to youwithin the hour.
It's going to cost 85 pounds.And they go, right, okay.
Yeah, can you do it?
Somebody else goes and ringsback to minutes later.
The job's gone.
They've already ordered with us.
He's done. Now,
if you're an architect, are you looking tohave an extension on your house?

(01:26:57):
And you might not be having this donefor three, six months at that point?
The speed to lead isn't as important.
You still want to be responding
and getting the information,but it's not as important in that niche
than it is in other nicheswhere I'm ready now to place an order.
Who am I going to place the order with,or to speak to a consultant?
Who am I going to speak to?
I need to make certain it's us.

(01:27:19):
And that's where we went.
And you've mentioned phones and youmentioned leads that come in via email.
What about like text or like live chat.
So text WhatsApp and live chat, WhatsAppsome massive in the UK.
I don't know if many peopleuse it in the US, but in the UK is huge.
So we've got a lot of WhatsAppintegrations.

(01:27:39):
We integrate WhatsApp and text messageinto high level the CRM system,
and which then can instantly,once they send the text or do a WhatsApp,
we can instantly reply, startasking them questions
so we can start to say,if you're a roofer, we can start to say,
have you got any photos of the existingroof when you're looking to have it done?
So we're instantly engaging

(01:28:00):
before a real person can come backand then start to take it further.
But at least we've got that interactionwith them going back and forth.
Can we have this?
Can we have thatwhen you're looking to have it done?
Are you providing the scaffolding on usto provide the scaffolding
and just little things
that just to get them engaged and speakingand but what's apps like.
Yeah it's massive.

(01:28:21):
It's it'sWhatsApp's better in the UK than email.
It's just a lot of people like fillingin a form on web web contact forms.
We work out what niches pay the mostand how much time and effort
we should put into it, and then decide,should this come into our call center,
should we just send it?
Director client
can we help the client nurturethe leads better

(01:28:43):
so that they can convert thema lot higher, which then makes our leads
look better than what they are,if they're not converting them,
and so on and so on.
Awesome. Well, James,I want to be respectful of your time.
I know we've been talking a lotand you've dropped so much knowledge.
If people want to follow up after,
let's say they want to follow you,they want to reach out or hire you.
How would they do that?

(01:29:38):
All right.
We'll do our best to get James outto a local you event in the near future.
Yeah.For sure. Cheers, Joy. Thank you. You.

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