April 2, 2026 • 37 mins
If you’ve ever wondered how your kids can grow up in the same home yet be completely different, birth order may have more to do with it than you think. In this episode of the Mothers of Boys Survival Guide Podcast, Suzy Shaw talks with Dr. Robert Hurst, author of Life’s Fingerprint: How Birth Order Affects Your Path Throughout Life, about how birth order shapes personality, behavior, and sibling dynamics—especially when raising boys.
We break down classic birth order traits and go deeper into real-life parenting, including sibling rivalry, blended families, and twins. You’ll walk away with practical insights to better understand your children, reduce conflict, and parent each child for who they are—not where they fall in line.
🎧 For more episodes and resources, visit Mothers of Boys Survival Guide: https://mothersofboys.life 🌐 Learn more about birth order and explore Dr. Bob’s work: https://mybirthorder.com
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(00:00):
I'm Suzy Shaw, mom of 2 now adult boys
and author of the book, Motherof Boys Survival
Guide. This podcast sharespractical insights,
expert advice, and real conversationsto help
moms raise confident, capableboys. You can find
more episodes and resourcesat mothersofboys.life.
(00:23):
Now, let's get into today's conversation.
Birth Order and Boys (00:28):
How Siblings Shape Personality and Family Dynamics.
If you grew up with a brotheror sister and
now find yourself raising childrenof your own,
you may have already noticedhow birth order
seems to impact personalitieswithin a family.
Kids growing up in the samehome can be very
(00:51):
different. Some naturallytake charge, others
are more easygoing, and some seem determinedto carve out their own unique path.
My guest today is Dr. RobertHurst, who spent
more than 50 years as an orthodontist,observing
thousands of children and teens. Through
(01:15):
those years of working closelywith families,
he began noticing patterns that
traditional birth order theorydidn't fully explain.
His research led him to writea book, Life's
Fingerprints, How Birth OrderAffects Your Path
Throughout Life. Dr. Hurst,welcome to the podcast.
(01:38):
Thank you, Suzy. I'm glad to be here
and I'll try to answer all yourquestions about birth order.
And would you like me to call you Dr. Hurst?Robert Hurst? What would you like?
Well, you can call me Dr. Bob.
Many of my patients call me that, solet's keep it more informal.
(01:59):
Great. So the first thing I want to say is your
book, and for those who areon YouTube, I'm
showing it to you. It is reallybeautiful, and I
enjoyed looking through it.What motivated you to write it?
Well, for many yearsI was using the
(02:21):
theory of birth order in mypractice, and I had a
patient who was a pediatrician, and I was
actually treating him and his children.And he told me,
he said, "You have to shareyour ideas with
everybody." He says, "You needto write a book."
And I said, "I'm really notan author." He says,
"Well, you better be, becausethis information needs
(02:44):
to get out." He says, "I'm using it in my
practice, and it has just changedthe way I look at all my
patients." So I said, "Okay,I'm going to go
ahead and write the book." Andthree years later,
I finished the book. AndI have to say, and
I'm going to hold this up,I read your book,
and I thought it was a wonderfulstory of a
(03:07):
mother raising 2 sons, andfrom birth up until
their 20s, and all the tricksshe did during
the time you raised them, Ithought it was a great book.
And I suggest thatto everybody too.
Well, I appreciate that.And I guess we both
(03:30):
want to share, right? Isn't that really ourknowledge and experience? And so I-
That's true. That's true. So many parents
have heard of birth order,and that it can shape
personality. For listenerswho might not be
familiar with the idea, whatexactly is birth order theory?
(03:54):
Well, it startedback, if everyone
remembers the stories aboutFreud and how Freud
thought that the childrenreally- it was based
a lot on their relationshipwith their parents.
And at that time, in his little local
society, he had another fellain there by the name of
Alfred Adler. And Adler said,"You know, I don't
(04:18):
think the parents had thatmuch to do with it. I
think the brothers and sistersare the reason
that the siblings, the differentsiblings, are so
different. It's really theirinterrelationships
with their siblings." And now,Alfred Adler was
a number two boy, and Freudwas the oldest in
his father's second family.And after that little
(04:40):
discussion, they never spokeagain. And that
was the starting of birth ordertheory with Alfred
Adler, who came to the UnitedStates in the
30s and pursued that wholeconcept. So he said,
"It's your relationship withyour siblings that
make you who you are." That'show it all started.
(05:03):
I am the oldest of 2, andI have a younger
brother that I found a lotof what you referred
to in the book very relevant to me, and alsomy 2 boys that in the book I call
"Ernest and Exuberance," which is almost as synonym.
Right. I thoughtthat was great.
So what is the traditional birth order
(05:26):
patterns? Firstborn, middle child,youngest, oldest? And
are there ways to make themost out of your fate
or your child's fate, if they'rewhere they fall into that?
Right. Well, thebook's title is
"Life's Fingerprint, How Your PathGoes Throughout Life."
(05:46):
You carry your birth order throughout life.That doesn't change. And it's like the
unseen radio wave that isrunning behind your
life, your entire life, helpingyou make decisions
and influencing all your decisions.And you may
not be aware of it. But ifyou understand birth
order and you understand whoyou are, you can
(06:09):
use those forces to the bettermentof your life.
Now, let's start with thefirst child that's
born. That's an only child.That child is very
different. It doesn't relate to any other
children. They relate to the parents.So every firstborn
child starts their lifeas an only. And of
course, an only child is perfectin every way. And that
(06:32):
was you, at least until yourbrother is born.
So what happens is the onlychild has a lot of
self-confidence because theirpeople that they
relate to are parents, anothergeneration older
than them. So they're likelittle adults. And
they can be, well, every birthorder has two sides of
(06:54):
that. They could be very spoiledas an only child,
or they can be little adult-likeand very reliable
and dependable. So the onlychild's birth order
really has a different flavor.All only children
have different flavors. It'sthe flavor of their
parents' combined birth orders.So an only child,
(07:16):
if he's raised by a number1 and a number 2,
he has the qualities of onesand twos within his
only child. If he's raisedby a number 3 ,
he'd have the qualities of anumber 3 related to
his only child. It gets alittle complicated,
but if you start to put thenumbers together,
it starts to work. But anyway,when number 1,
(07:39):
the only child, becomes anumber 1 only when
the next child is born. So whathappens in number 1?
Well, number one's notvery happy about this
at all because now she hasto share. And number
1 is going to say, "I wantto keep this position,
by throne, so I am going tobe perfect." So number
(08:01):
1s are very high achievers,and they don't ever
expect to make mistakes. They'renot expected to
make a mistake, and they're veryhard on themselves.
That would be you. You wantto be perfect,
and you are so hard on yourself,you don't allow
yourself to make mistakes.You think that's
really bad for your ego if youever make a mistake.
(08:25):
Number 2's is a little different. Number
2 comes into this world,and they want to be
just the opposite of number1 because number
1's got a spot in the family,and number 2 says,
"Well, the only thing I wantis don't tell me
what to do." Number 1 says,"I'm in charge,"
(08:47):
and number 1 wants to tell number 2what to do, and number 2 says,
"I'm not going to tell you whatto do. Don't tell
me what to do." So they wantto control their own
space, and they want to bedifferent from number 1.
Number 1 has got a headstart in school,
so number 1 is really thegood student.
So number 2 says, "Well, what do I haveas a spot?"
"Oh, I'll be an athlete,so I'll be the good
(09:08):
athlete in the family.
I'll be different. I'llbe special that way." Because everybody in
the family wants to be differentand special.
And so they have a more outgoingpersonality.
They can be very competitive.People say, "Number
2 is stubborn." Number 2 is not
stubborn. He just doesn't wantto be told what to do.
So there they are. That'sthe sibling rivalry
(09:31):
that goes on, and we're goingto probably talk
about that later. 2 girls,2 boys, a boy
and a girl, a girl and a boy,and they're all
kind of unique, but that'swhat goes on in every
family, and the sibling rivalryis something you
really got to work on. But then number
3 comes along. Well, number3 is very...
(09:53):
This starts to be... Well,that becomes the
baby in the family, but it'sreally not the baby,
as you'll see in a minute.But the number 3
has to understand 17 differenttypes of personalities...
interrelationships within the family. The
mother, the father, the firstborn,the secondborn, the
secondborn to the firstborn,they are masters at
(10:14):
understanding people. They canbe very sensitive,
very quiet. They don't wantto let the older
siblings know that they'rehurting them when
they beat them up because theyknow they'll just
get more of the same. So theysuffer in silence,
but they're educated by theolder siblings.
I always want to say laughingon the outside,
(10:36):
crying on the inside. That'sthe number 3,
because they're so sensitive,but they won't let
you know that they're sensitive.But they're
artistic, creative, they're sweet,they're intuitive.
They're like the outdoors.They want to save the
world. They see life so differentlythan 1 and 2.
They really do. Andactually, they love
(10:59):
to play 1 and 2 againsteach other because
they're so good at relationships,they know
exactly what buttons to push.Then the next kid
that comes along is the truebaby in the family.
That's number 4. Number4 really is raised
by the older kids becausenow you divided up
the mother and father's attentionover 4 kids.
They don't have any timefor the baby. Now,
(11:21):
the baby can be really loud.Why? Because no one
listens to the baby. So theyhave to be loud
and they hit on the other kids.In my practice,
when I have a number 4,the number 4, I
never see the parents. They'reusually brought in
by older siblings. And whennumber 4 leaves
the office, they usually droptheir appointment card
(11:42):
in the driveway somewhere.They're not very
responsible because oldersiblings are always
taking care of them. So then,now, if you want
to go a little further, withbirth order theory,
it goes 1, 2, 3, 4,and then starts
over again with number 5.Number 5 is like
(12:04):
a number 1. And I use theanalogy, primary
colors and secondary colors.A 5 is like a 1
as a primary color is toa secondary color.
It's just like a 1, exceptthat it's more subtle.
It's a little smoother. It's not feelingso much tension as a number 1 does,
(12:25):
but they still have those same qualities.
Number 6 is like a number 2.And a number 7
is like a number 3, but it's not quitethe same. It's a little more subtle.
I became very interestedin this because my
husband is 7th of 9.And his parents
(12:48):
had 0 kids in 12 years,and there are 3
years between the last 2.And so when I joined
the family and they wouldtalk about the first
family, actually it was onlythe older kids that
talked like this, but theywould describe the
first family and the second family.And then the number
(13:09):
9, they called the onlychild. And so only
having a brother and marryinginto this, I was,
you know, I really, it took a while forme to wrap my head around it,
but I appreciate and understandwhat you're talking about.
Yes, number 9 is anothertype of number 1,
(13:30):
but it's a third level number1. Number 1,
number 5, and number 9.And I can see,
you see, it's interesting.People figured it out
without knowing anythingabout birth order.
Every 4 kids was just anotherfamily. See,
they said the first family,that was the first
four kids. The next 4 kidswere another family.
(13:50):
And then the next family started, but theyonly had one kid in it.
Right. (The 9) And they calledhim the only child
because he had the most timewith his parents.
Right. Because, because ofthe, well, the quick
order of, of kids.
Right. And the rest of them are off at school. (Right.Right.) You know,
Right. So, you know,
(14:13):
most people understand birthorder as they get
older in life and they canlook back at things
and see how people were, youknow, when you're
very young and you're in yourtwenties and so
they don't quite understandthe birth order thing
because it's too close to them.And they haven't
been around life long enoughto see how people
turn out, but everyone seems tofind their right spot
(14:37):
eventually in, with their birth order.
Right. So how does, now howdoes gender, you know,
play into this and what's the difference
between like 2 brothers comparedto 2 sisters or a
sister and a brother?
Sure. Yeah. That's, they're all unique. Let's startwith 2 sisters.
(14:59):
When they're close in age, in otherwords, at least
within 4 years of each other, you know,
2-3 years, the oldersister dominates
that younger sister and theyounger sister kind of
looks up to the older sisterfor some support and
whatever. And she, and the younger,younger sister
(15:19):
loves that because she wantsto tell younger
sister what to do. And, but youngersister, remember,
she's a 2 and she reallydoesn't want to be
told what to do. What I've foundis this relationship
stays that way until number 2 graduates
from high school. Then sheblossoms into a whole
(15:40):
different person, the realperson that she
wanted to be, because number1 sister is no longer
got her thumb on her, butnumber 1 sister
doesn't want her... you know,number 1 sister
is going to be the valedictorianof the school,
but number 2 sister mightbe on the cheerleading
team or she's going to bethe athlete. Unless
(16:02):
number 1 sister slips in school,then number 2
dethrones number 1 sisterand becomes the
student and number 1 sisterbecomes the athlete.
That's how you can tell if there's been a
dethroning in a relationship. Nowlet's go to 2 boys.
(16:22):
2 boys are a little different.Why? Well,
there's a lot of testosteronegoing on here.
Tell me about it.
That the girls don't have.
and you know, mother of boys,I don't have to tell
you anything about this. Sothere is all, I mean,
they're going to kill each other.I mean, if they
could, of course, you know,you go back to the
Bible with Cain and Abel andthat didn't work out
(16:43):
so well, but number 2 wantsto dethrone number
1. And so there you haveto look at that very
carefully about school and athletics.Who is going
to be this, the student? Number2 wants to knock
him off if he can, who's going to be the
athlete. And what I tell peopleis that whatever you do
(17:04):
with your children, especiallywith 2 boys,
don't let them play the samesport because then
you really increase the competitivenessbetween tem.
You know, let one ofthem play baseball,
let one of them play basketball,just make them
make them special because everykid wants to be
special in their own right.So, you know, try to
(17:25):
keep the competition down, especiallybetween two
boys. Now, what happens whenthere's a girl
and her younger brother? Well,we have to look at
society, right? This is you.(This is me.)
And society says, is this amale-oriented society
or is this a female-orientedsociety? So in a
(17:48):
male-oriented society, suchas, well, it could be
Asian families are very male-oriented.
They don't even count the girls ina birth order. When I
talked to them about birthorder, in those days
we have six kids and they'reall mentioning the
boys. I said, were there anygirls in the family?
Oh, yes, they were girls. Well,where were they?
(18:09):
Well, we don't really countthem. So in an
Asian family, the boy, ifhe's number 2,
he immediately dethronesthe number 1 girl
and he doesn't do anything.He's just a boy. But,
you know, in our society, it'skind of 50-50 now.
So the boy doesn't have asmuch of an edge as he
(18:31):
used to. And so he's going tocompete against his
older sister. Now, how didthat work out in your
family? I could see you kept yourspot. You were the student.
Well, yeah, my brother was the athlete,all-American lacrosse player.
There you go!
And I would tell you, he toughenedme up because
(18:52):
he pushed me physically andwas probably always
snapping at my heels. But...
Absolutely. Because he wanted to dethrone you.You just didn't give
him the chance. You held your own.
I did learn how to throw a punch.
Good, good. Now, the other exampleis a boy first
(19:14):
and then the girl. This is awonderful relationship
because the boy is going to protect his
younger sister. And she doesn'tsee so much about
dethroning him because she'sspecial as the first
girl in the family. He doesn'tworry about dethroning
(19:36):
because he's the older boy.Jimmy Stewart is
an example of that. You know,just in life,
he was the nicest guy, but hewas the oldest one.
He had a younger sister. Youknow, he talked about
her too. But there's an exampleif that's... If
there could be the nicest exampleof birth order
and how they get together, theolder boy and then
(19:56):
the number 2 girl. And he'salways looking out
for his younger sister andshe's always looking
up to her older brother. Sothat works out pretty
good unless older brother slipsand then number
2 girl is going to take thatspot. And number
1 boy never recovers afterthat. You know, once
you dethroned, it's tough. SoI hope that answered
(20:18):
the question. A lot of yourviewers have that
situation, boy, girl, girl,boy, and all that.
Right. And I appreciate in your book,
throughout your book, you use peoplelike you just used
Jimmy Stewart as an example.You use famous
people to help illustratethe personalities,
which is really helpful.
I try to give examples of everything. Yes,that was hard.
(20:41):
A lot of research went into that.
I'm quite certain. So also in
your book, you describe somethingcalled double birth order.
And could you explainthat specifically?
Oh, this is what makes mybook unique from any
other book on birth order. Yousee, when I started
in my orthodontic practice,I understood I had
(21:04):
to understand my kids, my patients,to get their
cooperation, especially withbrushing their
teeth and taking care of theirbraces and things.
And I had to find a tool thatI could quickly
figure out how to get toeach of these kids.
So I started using birth order. It didn't work.
Well, it did work athird of the time.
(21:26):
I could get these kids understanding. And
two-thirds of the time, it didn'twork. And I was
ready just to give it up. Andthen I went to all
my records and I started lookingat all the families
and all the kids and all theages. And I realized
two-thirds of all my patientswere separated from
brothers and sisters by atleast four years.
(21:47):
And I said, my God, something'sgoing on here.
Something is what's differentabout this? And
then I realized they endedup getting a double
birth order because they wereat home while the
older sibling was at school.So they were raised
like an only child. So you added all the
characteristics of that only childbeing self-assured,
(22:09):
being able to talk with adults.And you add
that to the characteristicsof their birth order.
If a number 2 didn't wantto be told what
to do, a 2-only would bean immovable object.
This is a strong, strong, strong person.
And that's what happened.When these kids were
(22:31):
separated, they added thatonly child birth
order to their ordinal numberand it became
10 times the characteristics of that
number. If the 3 was sensitiveand whatever,
a three only, well, theyunderstand people
(22:51):
really well. They becomevery dramatic. And
it's like, I'm not shy atall. Number 3 is
shy and retiring. Number 3only is look at me,
I am here. And like Megan Merkel is a 3-only. She, as we know in her life,
(23:15):
she doesn't make a whole lot of friends,
but she sure makes a splashwhen she's around.
She hasn't made friends with the royals.
Right. This is true. So I wouldsort of imagine
that would play out the sameway if there was a
second family involved. Solet's say there were
(23:36):
two kids that sort of traditional1 and 2,
and then a split of a coupleof years, four years,
maybe, and then another child. Doesthat work the same way?
Yes. Yes. You are right on it. That's theother type of double birth order,
because the first one wesaid that added the
(23:56):
only child. But what if we havetwo families with a
spot in between of at leastfour years? An
example of that would be, we'llgo back to the royals,
Princess Di. She had twoolder sisters. Then
there was a four year gap andshe was born. So she was
number three. Then two yearslater, her younger
brother was born. This gaveher two birth orders.
(24:19):
She was the oldest one inthe second family
and she was the third born.So she was a 3-1,
birth order. Well, withthese people, they
have two different personalities.Sometimes there
are 3, sometimes thereare 1. Now I'll
give you a perfect example thatwe don't want to get
into politics, but we havea President that's
(24:40):
got a double birth order. He'sa 4, which is the
baby in the family. The babyin the family says
whatever he wants to say.And he's also a 1.
He's presidential. He's incharge. He's like a
number 1. And that's why he'sa great negotiator,
because no one knows whathe's going to be. Is
(25:00):
he going to be 1 or is hegoing to be the 4?
So that's when he wrotethe book, Art of a
Deal. He doesn't know whyhe's so good at it,
but that's why, because they don't knowwho they're dealing with.
So the double birth order withtwo numbers is a
very different kind of person.His younger brother
(25:22):
would be a four and a two.So he's the baby, but
he's also a two, which saysdon't tell me what to
do. So if you understand people'sbirth orders,
all of a sudden you know whoyou're dealing with.
And sometimes that's difficult.
So for families with multiple kids, whatwould you say is the
(25:45):
most helpful thing that parentsshould keep in
mind when they're managing theirfamily's dynamics?
Well, the most important thing to
understand is that every childwants to be different.
And every child is specialin some sort of
way. And don't try to make allthe kids the same.
You know, I see that in my practiceall the time.
(26:07):
The first child are very obedientand they follow
all the rules and they do everythinggreat. And
the next child is a littledifferent, whatever.
And the parent says, whycan't you be like
Susie who did everything right?And you say, wait a
minute, they don't want tobe like Susie and
they want to be their own self.And so treat every
child as unique and don'ttry to make them all
(26:28):
fit the same mold. And thenyou're going to have a
wonderful happy family. Youknow, everybody in the
family has a role to play. Soyou don't want them
playing the same role. Andthat's what happens
when you have blended families,when you have
kids from both familiescome together. All
the kids that go up in birthorder by age adapt
(26:48):
wonderfully. All the kidsthat are demoted in
birth order because of themarriage and the new
two marriages, they have troublein that marriage,
you know, in the new family.So if you get demoted,
you don't like that.
No doubt. I'm quite certain.
So Dr. Bob, you know, how doesit work with twins
(27:12):
and where they are in thefamily?
Well, twins take a lot of energy from thefamily. And most twins
will tell you who is the oldertwin and who is
the younger twin. And theywill take those birth
order positions. I had aset of twins in my
practice where the parentsdid not tell them
(27:34):
who was the older twin.And they were very
confused. And they had problemsall through their
life about who they were. Andone day they would
be somebody else. And it reallyhad some psychiatric
problems because everybodywants to be somebody.
And when you're not told whoyou are, you don't
know who you are. But thetwins will take the
(27:56):
spot of the older and the younger.And wherever they
are in the birth order chain,if you have two
siblings ahead of them, thenthe twins will be
number 3 and number 4.And they will
express those same characteristicsas a number 3
and a number 4 would inregular birth order.
But I would make this statement,if you have twins,
(28:17):
make sure they each know whois older and who
is younger. Don't keep thatsecret from them.
Hmm. That is so interesting.Thank you.
You know, so for moms, especiallyraising boys,
what advice would you give them?
(28:39):
Well, just keep in the back of your mind,
Cain and Abel. And when you keep thinking
that you say, well, I don'twant to let the
competitiveness betweenmy two boys get so
strong that they're going toreally hate each other.
You want to make them specialin their own
(29:00):
ways, as you did, you know, Earnestand Exuberance.
I mean, you did a wonderfuljob as a mother. I
mean, you treated those boys,I mean, it was like
you read the birth order book because you
treated them separate. You treatedthem as they were
different. And you understoodthat, you know,
they were competitive witheach other, but yet
(29:22):
they ended up liking each otherat the very end.
So treat them special, but understandwhat they're
trying to do in the birth orderrealm, trying to
unseat each other, but makethem special so they
keep their spots.
That's great. That's great
advice. That's what you did.)Well, you know,
(29:43):
The advice is in your booktoo. Well, there's,
Advice is in your booktoo. Well, there's,
there are some things thatI did that I just did
for necessity, like keepingthings equal. Like
there is an equality, I think,that parents get
hung up in. If I give onechild this, I must
give the other child that.And I let go of that
(30:05):
really early in my parenting journey as
unrealistic. And I just tried togive each child what I
thought they needed. Andso nobody's. Yeah.
What number 1 wants is notwhat number 2 wants.
So if you give them equally,number 2 says, "I
didn't want that anyway." So it doesn't, the equal
thing doesn't work out. Youhave to use what's
(30:28):
unique for each child that'sspecial for them.
And that didn't work. And youdid it, you know,
and you were successful. So Ithought that was great.
Well, thank you. I use alot of humor in my
book, so it's not the research.Yes, you did.
It's not the research-based bookthat you did. So
(30:49):
is there anything else youwould want to explain
before we sort of wrap up this podcast thatyou don't think we've touched on?
Yes. Most of the birth order books that areout there, they try to make it simple.
And I realized early that itwasn't simple. It's
(31:10):
not just an only. And also theysay 1, 2, 3.
But it's not 1, 2, 3.It's 1, 2,
3, 4. But then whenyou add the double
birth orders, it's a 1-only, a 2-only, a
3-only, a 4-only. And thenif you add the other
ones, you could have a 2-1, a 3-1, a
3-2. There's probablyabout 17 different
birth orders. So if someonesays, you know,
(31:34):
birth order, that's, that'shooey that doesn't work.
It's because they haven't given it a full
look. And most of these booksthat are out there,
they try to make it look toosimple. And it isn't
simple. And then they're goingto say it doesn't
work at all. But it works and it works
beautifully once you understand thewhole thing. So I would
say, you know, get my book.And not only do we
(31:58):
have the book as you showedin hard cover with
cover, we also have it as aUSB on our website.
You can get, if I can hold itup enough, you can go
and get life's fingerprint.Let's see if we can
get it up there. Right there.There we go. And
(32:18):
you just plug that little thing into your
computer. But I really suggest getthe color copy that get
off the website, becauseit's a coffee table
book and everybody comes forThanksgiving dinner,
is going to want to look up their birth
order. And it's great conversation.And, you know,
you won't have any fights atThanksgiving dinner.
(32:38):
Well, I appreciate it. The chartsand illustrations
and I'm a visual person.And so that really,
you know, helped me understandwhat you were
getting at with the way youwere breaking it
down and then add on the socialpart of it with
people that we know, you know, famous people.
Right. Right. Yeah.Hopefully that's good. Thank you.
(33:03):
So at the endof every program, I
ask our guests to give momssort of a quote or
a thought or a guiding phraseor something
that they can say to themselvesas they're
trying to figure out, youknow, the multiple
children scenario with birthorder. What would
(33:24):
you say to maybe the parents of yourpatients during those moments?
Well, this is easy becausealso you'll find on
our website, we have T-shirts.And so I would say
if you have an only child,keep in mind that
Superman was an only child.That's what we have
(33:47):
on the T-shirt. If you havea number 1, the
T-shirt says, "I want to bein charge." So think
about your child always wantto be in charge.
Number 2 says, "Don't tellme what to do."
Okay. The number 3 wouldsay, "I feel your
pain." The most sensitivethey are. And number
(34:08):
4, if you have a numberfour says, "I don't
want to grow up." So, you know,that's the baby.
So if you use those commonwords, then you
see your child in that light,then you can make
everything special for that child and he won't drive you crazy, which it could.
(34:29):
And that too will pass, right?
Yes, it will. They will grow up.
So yeah, even Peter Pan, number 4.
Can I ask you a question? Sure.
In your husband's family, was theoldest and the fifth a girl?
(34:52):
Let's see. I'm going to have to go backwards.So it's Mary Ellen Jane, Bob,
um, Kath, Carl. Carl is, so MaryEllen's a girl. Carl's...
Number 1 was a girl?
Yeah, number one's a girl. Number5 is a boy. And then...
(35:15):
Number nine?
Number nine is a boy. So there werefive girls and four boys.
Okay. Well, your husband'sa number 7.
He's number seven.
He's the 3rd of the 4 boys
Right. Which makes him a3. But he had
the oldest sister was a girl, number 1.
(35:37):
That's you. He understandsyou better than you
understand him because youdidn't have a number
3 or 7, a 3 boyin your family.
So he sees you as he sawhis oldest sister
and he understands that position. So hehas a leg up on understanding you,
(35:59):
but you have, you don't quite understandhim like he understands you.
I'll give you that.
Think about that.
I always say that's true.
But if you match your childhoodbirth order,
it's a type of love at firstsight because when he
saw you, he understood youright away. And
(36:22):
for him, it was very, verycomfortable. Okay.
So that was love at first sight. You'renot going to get rid of him.
He's there forever.
I know it. We're both in itfor the long haul.
That's right. That's right.
Well, Dr. Bob, I really appreciate your
discussion about this and alsothe marital advice.
(36:47):
And I want to tell our listenersthat I will
have links to Dr. Bob's bookand the materials
on his website and to his website on the
mothersaboys.life website andthe show notes. So
please check them out and thankyou for joining.
(37:08):
If this episode meant somethingto you, please
follow and share the Mothersof Boys Survival
Guide podcast on Facebook, Instagram,YouTube, and LinkedIn.
Sharing helps other moms discover theshow. Be kind to yourself, moms.
I'm Suzy Shaw, mom of 2 now adult boys
and author of the book, Motherof Boys Survival
Guide. This podcast sharespractical insights,
expert advice, and real conversationsto help
moms raise confident, capableboys. You can find
more episodes and resourcesat mothersofboys.life.
(00:23):
Now, let's get into today's conversation.
Birth Order and Boys (00:28):
How Siblings Shape Personality and Family Dynamics.
If you grew up with a brotheror sister and
now find yourself raising childrenof your own,
you may have already noticedhow birth order
seems to impact personalitieswithin a family.
Kids growing up in the samehome can be very
(00:51):
different. Some naturallytake charge, others
are more easygoing, and some seem determinedto carve out their own unique path.
My guest today is Dr. RobertHurst, who spent
more than 50 years as an orthodontist,observing
thousands of children and teens. Through
(01:15):
those years of working closelywith families,
he began noticing patterns that
traditional birth order theorydidn't fully explain.
His research led him to writea book, Life's
Fingerprints, How Birth OrderAffects Your Path
Throughout Life. Dr. Hurst,welcome to the podcast.
(01:38):
Thank you, Suzy. I'm glad to be here
and I'll try to answer all yourquestions about birth order.
And would you like me to call you Dr. Hurst?Robert Hurst? What would you like?
Well, you can call me Dr. Bob.
Many of my patients call me that, solet's keep it more informal.
(01:59):
Great. So the first thing I want to say is your
book, and for those who areon YouTube, I'm
showing it to you. It is reallybeautiful, and I
enjoyed looking through it.What motivated you to write it?
Well, for many yearsI was using the
(02:21):
theory of birth order in mypractice, and I had a
patient who was a pediatrician, and I was
actually treating him and his children.And he told me,
he said, "You have to shareyour ideas with
everybody." He says, "You needto write a book."
And I said, "I'm really notan author." He says,
"Well, you better be, becausethis information needs
(02:44):
to get out." He says, "I'm using it in my
practice, and it has just changedthe way I look at all my
patients." So I said, "Okay,I'm going to go
ahead and write the book." Andthree years later,
I finished the book. AndI have to say, and
I'm going to hold this up,I read your book,
and I thought it was a wonderfulstory of a
(03:07):
mother raising 2 sons, andfrom birth up until
their 20s, and all the tricksshe did during
the time you raised them, Ithought it was a great book.
And I suggest thatto everybody too.
Well, I appreciate that.And I guess we both
(03:30):
want to share, right? Isn't that really ourknowledge and experience? And so I-
That's true. That's true. So many parents
have heard of birth order,and that it can shape
personality. For listenerswho might not be
familiar with the idea, whatexactly is birth order theory?
(03:54):
Well, it startedback, if everyone
remembers the stories aboutFreud and how Freud
thought that the childrenreally- it was based
a lot on their relationshipwith their parents.
And at that time, in his little local
society, he had another fellain there by the name of
Alfred Adler. And Adler said,"You know, I don't
(04:18):
think the parents had thatmuch to do with it. I
think the brothers and sistersare the reason
that the siblings, the differentsiblings, are so
different. It's really theirinterrelationships
with their siblings." And now,Alfred Adler was
a number two boy, and Freudwas the oldest in
his father's second family.And after that little
(04:40):
discussion, they never spokeagain. And that
was the starting of birth ordertheory with Alfred
Adler, who came to the UnitedStates in the
30s and pursued that wholeconcept. So he said,
"It's your relationship withyour siblings that
make you who you are." That'show it all started.
(05:03):
I am the oldest of 2, andI have a younger
brother that I found a lotof what you referred
to in the book very relevant to me, and alsomy 2 boys that in the book I call
"Ernest and Exuberance," which is almost as synonym.
Right. I thoughtthat was great.
So what is the traditional birth order
(05:26):
patterns? Firstborn, middle child,youngest, oldest? And
are there ways to make themost out of your fate
or your child's fate, if they'rewhere they fall into that?
Right. Well, thebook's title is
"Life's Fingerprint, How Your PathGoes Throughout Life."
(05:46):
You carry your birth order throughout life.That doesn't change. And it's like the
unseen radio wave that isrunning behind your
life, your entire life, helpingyou make decisions
and influencing all your decisions.And you may
not be aware of it. But ifyou understand birth
order and you understand whoyou are, you can
(06:09):
use those forces to the bettermentof your life.
Now, let's start with thefirst child that's
born. That's an only child.That child is very
different. It doesn't relate to any other
children. They relate to the parents.So every firstborn
child starts their lifeas an only. And of
course, an only child is perfectin every way. And that
(06:32):
was you, at least until yourbrother is born.
So what happens is the onlychild has a lot of
self-confidence because theirpeople that they
relate to are parents, anothergeneration older
than them. So they're likelittle adults. And
they can be, well, every birthorder has two sides of
(06:54):
that. They could be very spoiledas an only child,
or they can be little adult-likeand very reliable
and dependable. So the onlychild's birth order
really has a different flavor.All only children
have different flavors. It'sthe flavor of their
parents' combined birth orders.So an only child,
(07:16):
if he's raised by a number1 and a number 2,
he has the qualities of onesand twos within his
only child. If he's raisedby a number 3 ,
he'd have the qualities of anumber 3 related to
his only child. It gets alittle complicated,
but if you start to put thenumbers together,
it starts to work. But anyway,when number 1,
(07:39):
the only child, becomes anumber 1 only when
the next child is born. So whathappens in number 1?
Well, number one's notvery happy about this
at all because now she hasto share. And number
1 is going to say, "I wantto keep this position,
by throne, so I am going tobe perfect." So number
(08:01):
1s are very high achievers,and they don't ever
expect to make mistakes. They'renot expected to
make a mistake, and they're veryhard on themselves.
That would be you. You wantto be perfect,
and you are so hard on yourself,you don't allow
yourself to make mistakes.You think that's
really bad for your ego if youever make a mistake.
(08:25):
Number 2's is a little different. Number
2 comes into this world,and they want to be
just the opposite of number1 because number
1's got a spot in the family,and number 2 says,
"Well, the only thing I wantis don't tell me
what to do." Number 1 says,"I'm in charge,"
(08:47):
and number 1 wants to tell number 2what to do, and number 2 says,
"I'm not going to tell you whatto do. Don't tell
me what to do." So they wantto control their own
space, and they want to bedifferent from number 1.
Number 1 has got a headstart in school,
so number 1 is really thegood student.
So number 2 says, "Well, what do I haveas a spot?"
"Oh, I'll be an athlete,so I'll be the good
(09:08):
athlete in the family.
I'll be different. I'llbe special that way." Because everybody in
the family wants to be differentand special.
And so they have a more outgoingpersonality.
They can be very competitive.People say, "Number
2 is stubborn." Number 2 is not
stubborn. He just doesn't wantto be told what to do.
So there they are. That'sthe sibling rivalry
(09:31):
that goes on, and we're goingto probably talk
about that later. 2 girls,2 boys, a boy
and a girl, a girl and a boy,and they're all
kind of unique, but that'swhat goes on in every
family, and the sibling rivalryis something you
really got to work on. But then number
3 comes along. Well, number3 is very...
(09:53):
This starts to be... Well,that becomes the
baby in the family, but it'sreally not the baby,
as you'll see in a minute.But the number 3
has to understand 17 differenttypes of personalities...
interrelationships within the family. The
mother, the father, the firstborn,the secondborn, the
secondborn to the firstborn,they are masters at
(10:14):
understanding people. They canbe very sensitive,
very quiet. They don't wantto let the older
siblings know that they'rehurting them when
they beat them up because theyknow they'll just
get more of the same. So theysuffer in silence,
but they're educated by theolder siblings.
I always want to say laughingon the outside,
(10:36):
crying on the inside. That'sthe number 3,
because they're so sensitive,but they won't let
you know that they're sensitive.But they're
artistic, creative, they're sweet,they're intuitive.
They're like the outdoors.They want to save the
world. They see life so differentlythan 1 and 2.
They really do. Andactually, they love
(10:59):
to play 1 and 2 againsteach other because
they're so good at relationships,they know
exactly what buttons to push.Then the next kid
that comes along is the truebaby in the family.
That's number 4. Number4 really is raised
by the older kids becausenow you divided up
the mother and father's attentionover 4 kids.
They don't have any timefor the baby. Now,
(11:21):
the baby can be really loud.Why? Because no one
listens to the baby. So theyhave to be loud
and they hit on the other kids.In my practice,
when I have a number 4,the number 4, I
never see the parents. They'reusually brought in
by older siblings. And whennumber 4 leaves
the office, they usually droptheir appointment card
(11:42):
in the driveway somewhere.They're not very
responsible because oldersiblings are always
taking care of them. So then,now, if you want
to go a little further, withbirth order theory,
it goes 1, 2, 3, 4,and then starts
over again with number 5.Number 5 is like
(12:04):
a number 1. And I use theanalogy, primary
colors and secondary colors.A 5 is like a 1
as a primary color is toa secondary color.
It's just like a 1, exceptthat it's more subtle.
It's a little smoother. It's not feelingso much tension as a number 1 does,
(12:25):
but they still have those same qualities.
Number 6 is like a number 2.And a number 7
is like a number 3, but it's not quitethe same. It's a little more subtle.
I became very interestedin this because my
husband is 7th of 9.And his parents
(12:48):
had 0 kids in 12 years,and there are 3
years between the last 2.And so when I joined
the family and they wouldtalk about the first
family, actually it was onlythe older kids that
talked like this, but theywould describe the
first family and the second family.And then the number
(13:09):
9, they called the onlychild. And so only
having a brother and marryinginto this, I was,
you know, I really, it took a while forme to wrap my head around it,
but I appreciate and understandwhat you're talking about.
Yes, number 9 is anothertype of number 1,
(13:30):
but it's a third level number1. Number 1,
number 5, and number 9.And I can see,
you see, it's interesting.People figured it out
without knowing anythingabout birth order.
Every 4 kids was just anotherfamily. See,
they said the first family,that was the first
four kids. The next 4 kidswere another family.
(13:50):
And then the next family started, but theyonly had one kid in it.
Right. (The 9) And they calledhim the only child
because he had the most timewith his parents.
Right. Because, because ofthe, well, the quick
order of, of kids.
Right. And the rest of them are off at school. (Right.Right.) You know,
Right. So, you know,
(14:13):
most people understand birthorder as they get
older in life and they canlook back at things
and see how people were, youknow, when you're
very young and you're in yourtwenties and so
they don't quite understandthe birth order thing
because it's too close to them.And they haven't
been around life long enoughto see how people
turn out, but everyone seems tofind their right spot
(14:37):
eventually in, with their birth order.
Right. So how does, now howdoes gender, you know,
play into this and what's the difference
between like 2 brothers comparedto 2 sisters or a
sister and a brother?
Sure. Yeah. That's, they're all unique. Let's startwith 2 sisters.
(14:59):
When they're close in age, in otherwords, at least
within 4 years of each other, you know,
2-3 years, the oldersister dominates
that younger sister and theyounger sister kind of
looks up to the older sisterfor some support and
whatever. And she, and the younger,younger sister
(15:19):
loves that because she wantsto tell younger
sister what to do. And, but youngersister, remember,
she's a 2 and she reallydoesn't want to be
told what to do. What I've foundis this relationship
stays that way until number 2 graduates
from high school. Then sheblossoms into a whole
(15:40):
different person, the realperson that she
wanted to be, because number1 sister is no longer
got her thumb on her, butnumber 1 sister
doesn't want her... you know,number 1 sister
is going to be the valedictorianof the school,
but number 2 sister mightbe on the cheerleading
team or she's going to bethe athlete. Unless
(16:02):
number 1 sister slips in school,then number 2
dethrones number 1 sisterand becomes the
student and number 1 sisterbecomes the athlete.
That's how you can tell if there's been a
dethroning in a relationship. Nowlet's go to 2 boys.
(16:22):
2 boys are a little different.Why? Well,
there's a lot of testosteronegoing on here.
Tell me about it.
That the girls don't have.
and you know, mother of boys,I don't have to tell
you anything about this. Sothere is all, I mean,
they're going to kill each other.I mean, if they
could, of course, you know,you go back to the
Bible with Cain and Abel andthat didn't work out
(16:43):
so well, but number 2 wantsto dethrone number
1. And so there you haveto look at that very
carefully about school and athletics.Who is going
to be this, the student? Number2 wants to knock
him off if he can, who's going to be the
athlete. And what I tell peopleis that whatever you do
(17:04):
with your children, especiallywith 2 boys,
don't let them play the samesport because then
you really increase the competitivenessbetween tem.
You know, let one ofthem play baseball,
let one of them play basketball,just make them
make them special because everykid wants to be
special in their own right.So, you know, try to
(17:25):
keep the competition down, especiallybetween two
boys. Now, what happens whenthere's a girl
and her younger brother? Well,we have to look at
society, right? This is you.(This is me.)
And society says, is this amale-oriented society
or is this a female-orientedsociety? So in a
(17:48):
male-oriented society, suchas, well, it could be
Asian families are very male-oriented.
They don't even count the girls ina birth order. When I
talked to them about birthorder, in those days
we have six kids and they'reall mentioning the
boys. I said, were there anygirls in the family?
Oh, yes, they were girls. Well,where were they?
(18:09):
Well, we don't really countthem. So in an
Asian family, the boy, ifhe's number 2,
he immediately dethronesthe number 1 girl
and he doesn't do anything.He's just a boy. But,
you know, in our society, it'skind of 50-50 now.
So the boy doesn't have asmuch of an edge as he
(18:31):
used to. And so he's going tocompete against his
older sister. Now, how didthat work out in your
family? I could see you kept yourspot. You were the student.
Well, yeah, my brother was the athlete,all-American lacrosse player.
There you go!
And I would tell you, he toughenedme up because
(18:52):
he pushed me physically andwas probably always
snapping at my heels. But...
Absolutely. Because he wanted to dethrone you.You just didn't give
him the chance. You held your own.
I did learn how to throw a punch.
Good, good. Now, the other exampleis a boy first
(19:14):
and then the girl. This is awonderful relationship
because the boy is going to protect his
younger sister. And she doesn'tsee so much about
dethroning him because she'sspecial as the first
girl in the family. He doesn'tworry about dethroning
(19:36):
because he's the older boy.Jimmy Stewart is
an example of that. You know,just in life,
he was the nicest guy, but hewas the oldest one.
He had a younger sister. Youknow, he talked about
her too. But there's an exampleif that's... If
there could be the nicest exampleof birth order
and how they get together, theolder boy and then
(19:56):
the number 2 girl. And he'salways looking out
for his younger sister andshe's always looking
up to her older brother. Sothat works out pretty
good unless older brother slipsand then number
2 girl is going to take thatspot. And number
1 boy never recovers afterthat. You know, once
you dethroned, it's tough. SoI hope that answered
(20:18):
the question. A lot of yourviewers have that
situation, boy, girl, girl,boy, and all that.
Right. And I appreciate in your book,
throughout your book, you use peoplelike you just used
Jimmy Stewart as an example.You use famous
people to help illustratethe personalities,
which is really helpful.
I try to give examples of everything. Yes,that was hard.
(20:41):
A lot of research went into that.
I'm quite certain. So also in
your book, you describe somethingcalled double birth order.
And could you explainthat specifically?
Oh, this is what makes mybook unique from any
other book on birth order. Yousee, when I started
in my orthodontic practice,I understood I had
(21:04):
to understand my kids, my patients,to get their
cooperation, especially withbrushing their
teeth and taking care of theirbraces and things.
And I had to find a tool thatI could quickly
figure out how to get toeach of these kids.
So I started using birth order. It didn't work.
Well, it did work athird of the time.
(21:26):
I could get these kids understanding. And
two-thirds of the time, it didn'twork. And I was
ready just to give it up. Andthen I went to all
my records and I started lookingat all the families
and all the kids and all theages. And I realized
two-thirds of all my patientswere separated from
brothers and sisters by atleast four years.
(21:47):
And I said, my God, something'sgoing on here.
Something is what's differentabout this? And
then I realized they endedup getting a double
birth order because they wereat home while the
older sibling was at school.So they were raised
like an only child. So you added all the
characteristics of that only childbeing self-assured,
(22:09):
being able to talk with adults.And you add
that to the characteristicsof their birth order.
If a number 2 didn't wantto be told what
to do, a 2-only would bean immovable object.
This is a strong, strong, strong person.
And that's what happened.When these kids were
(22:31):
separated, they added thatonly child birth
order to their ordinal numberand it became
10 times the characteristics of that
number. If the 3 was sensitiveand whatever,
a three only, well, theyunderstand people
(22:51):
really well. They becomevery dramatic. And
it's like, I'm not shy atall. Number 3 is
shy and retiring. Number 3only is look at me,
I am here. And like Megan Merkel is a 3-only. She, as we know in her life,
(23:15):
she doesn't make a whole lot of friends,
but she sure makes a splashwhen she's around.
She hasn't made friends with the royals.
Right. This is true. So I wouldsort of imagine
that would play out the sameway if there was a
second family involved. Solet's say there were
(23:36):
two kids that sort of traditional1 and 2,
and then a split of a coupleof years, four years,
maybe, and then another child. Doesthat work the same way?
Yes. Yes. You are right on it. That's theother type of double birth order,
because the first one wesaid that added the
(23:56):
only child. But what if we havetwo families with a
spot in between of at leastfour years? An
example of that would be, we'llgo back to the royals,
Princess Di. She had twoolder sisters. Then
there was a four year gap andshe was born. So she was
number three. Then two yearslater, her younger
brother was born. This gaveher two birth orders.
(24:19):
She was the oldest one inthe second family
and she was the third born.So she was a 3-1,
birth order. Well, withthese people, they
have two different personalities.Sometimes there
are 3, sometimes thereare 1. Now I'll
give you a perfect example thatwe don't want to get
into politics, but we havea President that's
(24:40):
got a double birth order. He'sa 4, which is the
baby in the family. The babyin the family says
whatever he wants to say.And he's also a 1.
He's presidential. He's incharge. He's like a
number 1. And that's why he'sa great negotiator,
because no one knows whathe's going to be. Is
(25:00):
he going to be 1 or is hegoing to be the 4?
So that's when he wrotethe book, Art of a
Deal. He doesn't know whyhe's so good at it,
but that's why, because they don't knowwho they're dealing with.
So the double birth order withtwo numbers is a
very different kind of person.His younger brother
(25:22):
would be a four and a two.So he's the baby, but
he's also a two, which saysdon't tell me what to
do. So if you understand people'sbirth orders,
all of a sudden you know whoyou're dealing with.
And sometimes that's difficult.
So for families with multiple kids, whatwould you say is the
(25:45):
most helpful thing that parentsshould keep in
mind when they're managing theirfamily's dynamics?
Well, the most important thing to
understand is that every childwants to be different.
And every child is specialin some sort of
way. And don't try to make allthe kids the same.
You know, I see that in my practiceall the time.
(26:07):
The first child are very obedientand they follow
all the rules and they do everythinggreat. And
the next child is a littledifferent, whatever.
And the parent says, whycan't you be like
Susie who did everything right?And you say, wait a
minute, they don't want tobe like Susie and
they want to be their own self.And so treat every
child as unique and don'ttry to make them all
(26:28):
fit the same mold. And thenyou're going to have a
wonderful happy family. Youknow, everybody in the
family has a role to play. Soyou don't want them
playing the same role. Andthat's what happens
when you have blended families,when you have
kids from both familiescome together. All
the kids that go up in birthorder by age adapt
(26:48):
wonderfully. All the kidsthat are demoted in
birth order because of themarriage and the new
two marriages, they have troublein that marriage,
you know, in the new family.So if you get demoted,
you don't like that.
No doubt. I'm quite certain.
So Dr. Bob, you know, how doesit work with twins
(27:12):
and where they are in thefamily?
Well, twins take a lot of energy from thefamily. And most twins
will tell you who is the oldertwin and who is
the younger twin. And theywill take those birth
order positions. I had aset of twins in my
practice where the parentsdid not tell them
(27:34):
who was the older twin.And they were very
confused. And they had problemsall through their
life about who they were. Andone day they would
be somebody else. And it reallyhad some psychiatric
problems because everybodywants to be somebody.
And when you're not told whoyou are, you don't
know who you are. But thetwins will take the
(27:56):
spot of the older and the younger.And wherever they
are in the birth order chain,if you have two
siblings ahead of them, thenthe twins will be
number 3 and number 4.And they will
express those same characteristicsas a number 3
and a number 4 would inregular birth order.
But I would make this statement,if you have twins,
(28:17):
make sure they each know whois older and who
is younger. Don't keep thatsecret from them.
Hmm. That is so interesting.Thank you.
You know, so for moms, especiallyraising boys,
what advice would you give them?
(28:39):
Well, just keep in the back of your mind,
Cain and Abel. And when you keep thinking
that you say, well, I don'twant to let the
competitiveness betweenmy two boys get so
strong that they're going toreally hate each other.
You want to make them specialin their own
(29:00):
ways, as you did, you know, Earnestand Exuberance.
I mean, you did a wonderfuljob as a mother. I
mean, you treated those boys,I mean, it was like
you read the birth order book because you
treated them separate. You treatedthem as they were
different. And you understoodthat, you know,
they were competitive witheach other, but yet
(29:22):
they ended up liking each otherat the very end.
So treat them special, but understandwhat they're
trying to do in the birth orderrealm, trying to
unseat each other, but makethem special so they
keep their spots.
That's great. That's great
advice. That's what you did.)Well, you know,
(29:43):
The advice is in your booktoo. Well, there's,
Advice is in your booktoo. Well, there's,
there are some things thatI did that I just did
for necessity, like keepingthings equal. Like
there is an equality, I think,that parents get
hung up in. If I give onechild this, I must
give the other child that.And I let go of that
(30:05):
really early in my parenting journey as
unrealistic. And I just tried togive each child what I
thought they needed. Andso nobody's. Yeah.
What number 1 wants is notwhat number 2 wants.
So if you give them equally,number 2 says, "I
didn't want that anyway." So it doesn't, the equal
thing doesn't work out. Youhave to use what's
(30:28):
unique for each child that'sspecial for them.
And that didn't work. And youdid it, you know,
and you were successful. So Ithought that was great.
Well, thank you. I use alot of humor in my
book, so it's not the research.Yes, you did.
It's not the research-based bookthat you did. So
(30:49):
is there anything else youwould want to explain
before we sort of wrap up this podcast thatyou don't think we've touched on?
Yes. Most of the birth order books that areout there, they try to make it simple.
And I realized early that itwasn't simple. It's
(31:10):
not just an only. And also theysay 1, 2, 3.
But it's not 1, 2, 3.It's 1, 2,
3, 4. But then whenyou add the double
birth orders, it's a 1-only, a 2-only, a
3-only, a 4-only. And thenif you add the other
ones, you could have a 2-1, a 3-1, a
3-2. There's probablyabout 17 different
birth orders. So if someonesays, you know,
(31:34):
birth order, that's, that'shooey that doesn't work.
It's because they haven't given it a full
look. And most of these booksthat are out there,
they try to make it look toosimple. And it isn't
simple. And then they're goingto say it doesn't
work at all. But it works and it works
beautifully once you understand thewhole thing. So I would
say, you know, get my book.And not only do we
(31:58):
have the book as you showedin hard cover with
cover, we also have it as aUSB on our website.
You can get, if I can hold itup enough, you can go
and get life's fingerprint.Let's see if we can
get it up there. Right there.There we go. And
(32:18):
you just plug that little thing into your
computer. But I really suggest getthe color copy that get
off the website, becauseit's a coffee table
book and everybody comes forThanksgiving dinner,
is going to want to look up their birth
order. And it's great conversation.And, you know,
you won't have any fights atThanksgiving dinner.
(32:38):
Well, I appreciate it. The chartsand illustrations
and I'm a visual person.And so that really,
you know, helped me understandwhat you were
getting at with the way youwere breaking it
down and then add on the socialpart of it with
people that we know, you know, famous people.
Right. Right. Yeah.Hopefully that's good. Thank you.
(33:03):
So at the endof every program, I
ask our guests to give momssort of a quote or
a thought or a guiding phraseor something
that they can say to themselvesas they're
trying to figure out, youknow, the multiple
children scenario with birthorder. What would
(33:24):
you say to maybe the parents of yourpatients during those moments?
Well, this is easy becausealso you'll find on
our website, we have T-shirts.And so I would say
if you have an only child,keep in mind that
Superman was an only child.That's what we have
(33:47):
on the T-shirt. If you havea number 1, the
T-shirt says, "I want to bein charge." So think
about your child always wantto be in charge.
Number 2 says, "Don't tellme what to do."
Okay. The number 3 wouldsay, "I feel your
pain." The most sensitivethey are. And number
(34:08):
4, if you have a numberfour says, "I don't
want to grow up." So, you know,that's the baby.
So if you use those commonwords, then you
see your child in that light,then you can make
everything special for that child and he won't drive you crazy, which it could.
(34:29):
And that too will pass, right?
Yes, it will. They will grow up.
So yeah, even Peter Pan, number 4.
Can I ask you a question? Sure.
In your husband's family, was theoldest and the fifth a girl?
(34:52):
Let's see. I'm going to have to go backwards.So it's Mary Ellen Jane, Bob,
um, Kath, Carl. Carl is, so MaryEllen's a girl. Carl's...
Number 1 was a girl?
Yeah, number one's a girl. Number5 is a boy. And then...
(35:15):
Number nine?
Number nine is a boy. So there werefive girls and four boys.
Okay. Well, your husband'sa number 7.
He's number seven.
He's the 3rd of the 4 boys
Right. Which makes him a3. But he had
the oldest sister was a girl, number 1.
(35:37):
That's you. He understandsyou better than you
understand him because youdidn't have a number
3 or 7, a 3 boyin your family.
So he sees you as he sawhis oldest sister
and he understands that position. So hehas a leg up on understanding you,
(35:59):
but you have, you don't quite understandhim like he understands you.
I'll give you that.
Think about that.
I always say that's true.
But if you match your childhoodbirth order,
it's a type of love at firstsight because when he
saw you, he understood youright away. And
(36:22):
for him, it was very, verycomfortable. Okay.
So that was love at first sight. You'renot going to get rid of him.
He's there forever.
I know it. We're both in itfor the long haul.
That's right. That's right.
Well, Dr. Bob, I really appreciate your
discussion about this and alsothe marital advice.
(36:47):
And I want to tell our listenersthat I will
have links to Dr. Bob's bookand the materials
on his website and to his website on the
mothersaboys.life website andthe show notes. So
please check them out and thankyou for joining.
(37:08):
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