April 1, 2026 • 22 mins
Have you ever whispered the words, "I want my pet to die peacefully at home" — and then immediately wondered if that was even possible, or whether you were naive for wanting it?
You are not alone. And you are not naive.
In this episode, Karen and Gail sit down for an honest, compassionate conversation about natural death for pets — not as a radical idea reserved for the brave or experienced, but as a real, loving, and genuinely possible goal for many animals and their families.
They talk openly about why fear and lack of education are the two biggest barriers to even considering natural death, what a peaceful natural passing actually looks and feels like, and why the dying process itself does not cause pain. That last point — that disease causes pain, not dying — is something most pet parents have never heard, and it changes everything.
You'll also hear the story behind the PEACEFUL Quality of Dying Guide, a free practical resource developed by Gail Pope, Kathryn Marocchino, PhD, and holistic veterinarian Dr. Ella Bittel to help you recognize the signs of a peaceful passing and respond with confidence rather than fear.
IN THIS EPISODE:
- Why fear and lack of education are the two biggest barriers to considering natural death
- The truth about pain and the dying process — and why they are not the same thing
- What normal signs and symptoms of natural dying actually look like
- How learning about human death can deepen your understanding of animal dying
- The story behind the PEACEFUL Quality of Dying Guide and how to use it
- Why regret is the one thing that can rob you of a peaceful ending — and how to prevent it
Whether you're just beginning to think about your pet's end of life or you're already walking that road, this conversation offers what so many pet parents are quietly searching for: knowledge, perspective, and the reassurance that doing your best — with great love — is always enough.💜
📌 Related Resource:
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📖 Understanding Natural Dying - https://www.brighthaven.org/understanding-natural-dying/
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📖 Peace of Mind for Pet Parents Podcast Episode 010, May 2025: A Different Goodbye: Facing Fear, Finding Peace, and Allowing a Natural Death: Gail & Karen’s first experiences with natural death. https://brightpathforpets.com/blog/peace-of-mind-for-pet-parents-episode-010-a-different-goodbye/
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📖 Download the PEACEFUL Quality of Dying Guide: Signs of a Peaceful Passing at: https://brightpathforpets.com/resources-html/
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📖 Walking The BrightPath: A Pet Parent’s Guide To Home Hospice And Natural Transition - https://brightpathforpets.com/blog/pet-hospice-guide
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📖 Soul-Centered Care: Seeing Pet Death Differently A BrightPath TRANSITION Series Booklet - https://brightpathforpets.com/soul-centered-care-booklet/
🌹 Join our monthly Rose Ceremony (free online pet celebration): https://brightpathforpets.com/rose-ceremony/
💬 If this episode touched your heart, you’re not alone. The BrightHaven Caregivers’ Hub is our supportive membership community for pet parents navigating caregiving, anticipatory grief, and all the moments in between.
We gather to share stories, ask questions, and care for each other as we care for our animals. If you’re walking this path, we’d be honored to walk it with you.
🔗 Learn more about the Hub: https://brightpathforpets.com/caregivers-hub/
📌Thanks for listening! Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review 🐶⭐🐱
💜 Karen Wylie, EdD is the Executive Director of the Animal Hospice Group and Co-Founder of BrightHaven Caregiver Academy. With decades of experience as an educator, caregiver, and organizational consultant, Karen has personally navigated the caregiving journey with cats, dogs, and horses through chronic illness and end-of-life transitions. Her mission is to give pet parents the tools, knowl
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here as always with my friend Gail Pope.
If you've ever said the words, "I want my pet to die peacefully at home." Then immediately wondered if that was even possible or if you were maybe naive to even want it, this conversation's going to be for you.
(01:13):
Today Gail and I are going to talk about natural death not as a radical idea but as something that's not just for those who are brave or experienced, but as a real loving and very possible goal for many pets and their families.
So we're going to talk honestly about what can get in the way of even considering natural death, what it actually looks like when it can unfold peacefully, and what you need to have in place practically and emotionally— if this is the ending you want for your beloved companion.
(01:46):
Gail, you have witnessed more natural deaths than almost anyone on Earth.
I have quite a few but you've got so many more than me.
So I'm going to start by asking you a question I think most people would want answered.
That is when a pet parent comes to you and says, "I really want my pet to die naturally but I'm terrified I'll make the wrong call. What do you say to them?"
Gail Pope (02:10):
I thought you were going to be asking me easy questions.
Karen Wylie (02:14):
No, I just said I was going to talk to you about something you knew a lot about.
That's all I promised.
Gail Pope (02:21):
That's very difficult because it really is just the opener for a very long conversation, most often, because we all think differently about death.
Let's say we're all used to human death and I can use the word "used" there but we are not used to it at all because we are scared of that.
We are scared of the way that happens.
(02:43):
So when we are faced with an option, if you like, we've got two options at the end of life for our animals.
One is euthanasia which is the kindest way for a life to end for many people.
Then we've got what is most natural in being is a natural death as nature intended.
We're fearful of that wall, that death is in our minds anyway.
(03:07):
So whereas a pet parent, when we are faced with making that decision, it comes down to the one side we have fear and on the other side we have lack of education.
We don't know, we don't understand.
A lot depends on how we've been brought up, what our parents, what our friends, colleagues have shared with us that shape our beliefs.
(03:27):
So somebody who comes to me with a question like that, we have to go back in time and unravel who they are, what they actually believe, and what they actually believe a natural death is.
Because it is different things to different people, I think.
Does that make sense?
Karen Wylie (03:43):
Makes perfect sense.
We've got different factors or variables or issues from all sides of the conversation because it's not just the pet parent looking at their animal and making this decision on their own.
They're typically consulting their veterinarian about this possibility.
As we've talked at other times on the podcast, our veterinarians don't receive a lot of training in hospice care when they're going through school.
(04:13):
They receive even less about the possibility of natural death.
So that if or when we turn to them to support us in that decision, they're really thrown by it because they haven't watched a pet's body naturally decline over time with the goal of allowing that natural death.
Instead, they watch the decline maybe for a little bit of time and then it's "Okay, that's enough. It's time for euthanasia. We're going to stop it here."
(04:41):
Or maybe they let it go a little further.
We're going to stop it here.
So I think it's difficult for pet parents who would love to have their pet die peacefully at home.
In their mind might be contracting with a mobile veterinary service to come and euthanize at home.
But for others, dying peacefully at home means just that for their pet and their pet's body to naturally die at whatever time that body is going to shut down and the soul will be freed.
(05:11):
So there's different variables, different considerations.
I do so wish that more veterinarians had more experience with the process of natural death.
In so many situations, it really is possible.
It's not where it's cruel and it's always going to be deaths, always going to be painful.
Maybe this is a good time for you to talk about the fact that dying doesn't mean pain because that's an assumption that the veterinary world seems to make.
(05:40):
It's an assumption that's shared with pet parents and none of us want our babies to be in pain.
That has to be addressed but euthanasia is not the only way to address any pain that might occur during a dying process.
So could you step in here and discuss that a little bit?
Gail Pope (05:58):
Yes, so many thoughts are flooding through my mind at the moment.
I keep coming back to education all the time, so I'm going to go back there first.
I think the more that all of us can learn about the human side of dying rather than the animal— we can learn about what's normal, what's natural, what's expected.
(06:19):
We can learn about pain and suffering and all the things that come into the animal world when we start to wonder if our animals can die naturally.
What does that look like?
What does it mean?
Is it painful?
There are so many books that have been written by so many wise humans about human death, dying, pain, suffering.
(06:41):
I'm still reading them now.
I have tons and tons of books and I'm forever pulling out a book I read 10 years ago and reading it again and really reeducating myself about what is normal.
You are absolutely right.
Pain is not a normal part of the dying process that is very well established.
In fact, I think just in the last couple of weeks I watched a podcast or maybe I read a blog of Barbara Karnes— who's so well known as our guru in that world—
Karen Wylie (07:10):
In human death and dying.
Gail Pope (07:12):
She was actually talking about that subject again there.
It's established over and over again in the human world and we all know chronic illness can be very painful.
A lot of illnesses these days carry pain and pain can be treated.
The world has moved into a place where there are so many different options for treating pain.
(07:33):
So that all crosses over into the world of veterinary care where pain, again, is very well able to be treated.
Maybe not always as well as possible in some instances but 99% of pain that occurs in chronic illness, the veterinarian will have a way of helping control that pain.
(07:54):
The dying process is a natural event.
It happens to us all.
It's not something that we can avoid.
Birthing is not something we can avoid.
Living is something we can't avoid.
We might want to sometimes.
Karen Wylie (08:08):
Sometimes.
Gail Pope (08:09):
And dying is, again, it's the most natural part of that circle of life too.
So the more we can learn about what is natural in the dying process, that again, is the same for humans as it is for animals.
It's so difficult to enter these kinds of conversations because birthing isn't always the same.
(08:31):
Some births are very easy and they're done very quickly, and someone's "Oh my God, she's had a baby already? Oh my goodness, she only started in labor an hour ago."
And then there are others that it's a long drawn out labor to get into this world— and dying is the same.
We know what the normal signs and symptoms are of dying but it's like all of those signs and symptoms are a menu.
(08:56):
They don't all occur in exactly the same manner at exactly the same time.
So the more we can learn about what is normal, what is natural— we are prepared so that if a symptom comes up.
Restlessness, we know that's normal.
We know if the animal has been in pain and we are instantly, "Oh my God, he's restless. Is he in pain?"
(09:18):
We know we've been treating that pain and so we continue.
So that isn't pain.
It is the normal process of dying and there are so many of these symptoms that are normal.
But once we know that they're normal, and especially if we've accompanied a human being through the dying process, that used to be very normal for us.
(09:41):
But I know when I was a child, I wasn't allowed to be with my grandmother or my great-grandmother when they died at home.
You know that bedroom door was closed and I wasn't allowed to go in which is a huge shame because I would've learned so much.
It would've been lovely to have realized that I was in a room with a kind and gentle energy and an understanding of the passing of the spirit out of the body.
(10:08):
I would've grown up with that understanding and a natural death for an animal wouldn't have been something that I feared and was absolutely convinced was the most awful, cruel thing that could have ever happened to an animal.
I had to learn and I did so kicking and screaming.
Karen Wylie (10:25):
You and I did had a podcast conversation about this in terms of our first time experiencing a natural death for each of us.
It wasn't our choice.
We were found ourselves stuck in a situation that came up fairly suddenly and you didn't have a way to leave home to get to the clinic.
(10:45):
There you were and I was here in the mountains of the Blue Ridge during the winter in a 14 inch snowstorm and I couldn't get anywhere either.
We both experienced our first natural deaths in those situations where we didn't choose to experience them but then when we did have that experience and began reflecting on it.
After you get through the shock of "Oh my God, did that really just happen? What was that? What was that like?"
(11:10):
I'll have to call up that podcast episode because we did describe that it's quite a learning experience when you do go through it the first time.
One thing you were saying about the natural circle of life, the cycle of life, and as you were describing what happened to you as a child when you weren't allowed into that bedroom where your grandmother was dying.
(11:30):
We have put up so many different barriers to not just children but ourselves as adults.
Experiencing any aspect of the death and dying process is something that's supposed to happen in the hospital.
It's supposed to happen in the ICU.
It's supposed to happen to the ER when there's a crisis.
Even though they can't really be fixed anymore than what terminal can be fixed.
(11:53):
Then there's hospice facilities that people can go to and all of that is happening outside the purview of the average member of the family where they're just not seeing it, they don't see the person declining over time.
They're not talking to them about how that might be feeling— whether emotionally or physically or anything else.
(12:15):
It's an awkward subject.
Nobody knows quite what to say.
So they have put up all these barriers to prevent all of us from becoming comfortable with this natural cycle of life and circle of life and accepting it as natural.
Because for our animals, euthanasia is considered the ending, the perfect ending for a pet.
(12:38):
In some cases, of course, I'm sure it is depending on what's gone wrong.
When it comes to death and dying, as we always say, there's no black and white about it.
It's like all the shades of gray and what's appropriate for the pet owner, and the situation.
We don't have that wider view, that wider perspective that would allow us to absorb different kind of information and wrestle with it.
Gail Pope (12:59):
I've probably talked about this before, but again it's something that is very important and that is what each of us believe, whether we believe in spirit or soul.
You mentioned those words as you were talking, and it occurred to me then that a lot of people will back away from those words.
(13:20):
They don't believe that dying is a transition to something new or they may be scared of the idea.
It would be wonderful, "But I can't believe in that."
Again, there's an awful lot of education in an awful lot of books that can help you when you're unsure, if you're biased against then you have your own beliefs.
But I think if you do believe that life goes on in some way or some form, that is a huge prompt to start trusting in the process.
(13:50):
You can look at the "being" living in his physical house, again with a human or an animal, and you can be with them tenderly through the process of them dying which to me is gradually preparing to step out of that house into the unknown or the unknown for us.
We don't quite know what's across that bridge or along that path.
(14:15):
Although some of us do, and again, there are books— some really interesting books about what happens afterwards and people who have experienced the dying process and come back to talk about it and animals too, I'm sure.
We just don't understand their language.
It's such a difficult subject.
It's so taboo and I think whether you believe in dying naturally, peacefully with or without euthanasia, you still have fear.
(14:39):
I don't care who you are.
I think fear is there for all of us unless we remember having died and having been reborn, maybe that will wipe out the fear but very few of us remember that.
Karen Wylie (14:53):
Very few of us.
Gail Pope (14:54):
People often have said to me, "How did you get to not fear death?" And I said, "I do fear death.
I can't wipe it out.
I still don't know what it feels like.
I would love to do that."
I will learn until the day I die to step toward that understanding but am I there yet?
No.
(15:14):
Most normal people are always going to have that little fear.
So again, that's why I come back to education all the time.
The more you learn, the more you understand, the more you absorb information from other people whether it be from a book or from discussion.
It's all so helpful.
It's all so helpful.
Karen Wylie (15:34):
One of the threads that has always woven through our conversations on this podcast is that dying does not cause the pain.
Disease causes the pain.
So for most people, hearing that the first time is kind of like "What?" because that's not typically what we're going to hear from a medical professional for humans or animals but it's true.
(15:58):
So that does then bring up the point that there are certain diseases and stages of disease in animals that might make euthanasia a higher consideration or more likely needed than others.
Because natural death for me, and I know I've said this a zillion times, it's always my goal.
(16:19):
It's always my hope.
That's what I'm going to work toward with an aging animal.
But no matter what you do, you can try for that.
That can be what you strive to allow for your pet but it's no guarantee along the way.
You always have to have the backup plan.
You always have to have your ER clinic phone numbers and verify that they're open on a particular night and so forth if you need them.
(16:42):
Again, it's so much of a process and we have to be prepared for so many possible occurrences.
Gail Pope (16:49):
We do.
We do.
Karen Wylie (16:50):
And that's where I think the fact that we have "The Peaceful" PDF available for everyone is important because it works as a companion— working toward allowing a natural death with their pet.
You developed that with Kathryn Marocchino and Ella Bittel who is a holistic veterinarian.
(17:11):
Can you tell us a little bit about how the three of you got together to create that document to help other people consider allowing natural death?
Gail Pope (17:18):
Actually that takes me way, way back to around the early 2000s and one day I received a call from a lady who introduced herself as Dr. Ella Bittel and she wanted to talk to me about animal hospice care.
I said, "I think you've got the wrong person. I don't know anything about hospice." Because in those days I had just been learning everything that animals had taught me.
(17:45):
I didn't call it hospice.
To me, from my upbringing, hospice was, "Uhhh, it's all about death and I don't want to talk about it."
It's not for me.
I concentrate on my animals living well and comfortably and happily until the end of life.
So I was about to brush her off.
That conversation led to a beautiful friendship that led to me being invited to speak at the Nikki Hospice Symposium and Nikki Hospice was founded by Kathryn Marocchino.
(18:15):
So Ella was a presenter, Kathryn was a presenter, and I was a presenter.
Of course, we inevitably got together with the same passions.
So that led to a beautiful friendship of many years now.
We realized that it would be really important to help people to be able to understand that in the animal world, we do have options at the end of life.
(18:36):
We can choose euthanasia but it would be wonderful if people always chose euthanasia having already explored another option to allow the animal a natural death.
Or not necessarily to allow it but to help, to be there, to understand the signs, the symptoms, how to help, how to be present with an animal who's dying, or a human who's dying.
(18:59):
So we spent a lot of hours and time putting all our thoughts together and having some wonderful conversations.
Then we developed that handout at the end of it and we've used it for a long time now.
Karen Wylie (19:13):
I know you have and that's why a little while ago I said, "We can't start yet.
I have to do something."
I was calling up "The Peaceful (19:20):
Quality of Dying" guide because it identifies eight areas that are signs of a peaceful passing.
Each of the columns describes what corresponds to the letters of the word "Peaceful".
So starting with pain and describing what you would be looking for or expecting in the process of a natural death.
(19:45):
We'll just encourage people to download it.
It's a free download at BrightPathForPets.com and we'll put that in the show notes.
But it really guides you in understanding what you would be seeing, what you would be looking for, and helping you respond comfortably to it.
I think the name of it is perfect because we're all looking for a peaceful end for our pets but also for us.
(20:06):
Because when they physically leave us, we have to live and accept the fact that they're gone.
Sometimes we're not very kind to ourselves and we second guess and doubt and feel badly about how we handled things.
Achieving a peaceful ending for our pet and for ourselves seems to be what it's all about.
Gail, as we bring this conversation to a close, what would you like to say to people who are considering a natural passing for their pet?
Gail Pope (20:34):
I think I've harped on it a lot.
Karen Wylie (20:36):
Just a summary.
Just a summary.
Gail Pope (20:38):
I think it begins with educating yourself a lot.
Live your life filled with love for your animal and with your animal.
Take baby steps toward the end of that life and do your best, do it with love.
And that is, in all honesty to me, that is the only way to get through this process of saying goodbye or fairly well so that there are no regrets.
(21:03):
I think for most of us humans, it's looking back with regret.
That is the one thing that can be so painful.
Karen Wylie (21:11):
That totally interferes with this peaceful ending where we talk about.
Gail Pope (21:17):
However, if you can say, "I did my best. I did it with love, with great love you." You can let go because there should be no regrets.
Karen Wylie (21:27):
That as always is a beautiful place to end it.
In terms of the education that you're identifying is so important, we have a lot of resources available to you on the BrightHaven.org website as well as the BrightPathForPets.com website.
We'll have put all those in the show notes and let you choose what might help you on your journey as you want to learn and explore a little bit about this possible ending for your pet.
(21:54):
We thank you for being with us and hope you'll be back next time.
Thanks.
Bye-bye.
Gail Pope (21:59):
Thank you.
Goodbye.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(22:35):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here as always with my friend Gail Pope.
If you've ever said the words, "I want my pet to die peacefully at home." Then immediately wondered if that was even possible or if you were maybe naive to even want it, this conversation's going to be for you.
(01:13):
Today Gail and I are going to talk about natural death not as a radical idea but as something that's not just for those who are brave or experienced, but as a real loving and very possible goal for many pets and their families.
So we're going to talk honestly about what can get in the way of even considering natural death, what it actually looks like when it can unfold peacefully, and what you need to have in place practically and emotionally— if this is the ending you want for your beloved companion.
(01:46):
Gail, you have witnessed more natural deaths than almost anyone on Earth.
I have quite a few but you've got so many more than me.
So I'm going to start by asking you a question I think most people would want answered.
That is when a pet parent comes to you and says, "I really want my pet to die naturally but I'm terrified I'll make the wrong call. What do you say to them?"
Gail Pope (02:10):
I thought you were going to be asking me easy questions.
Karen Wylie (02:14):
No, I just said I was going to talk to you about something you knew a lot about.
That's all I promised.
Gail Pope (02:21):
That's very difficult because it really is just the opener for a very long conversation, most often, because we all think differently about death.
Let's say we're all used to human death and I can use the word "used" there but we are not used to it at all because we are scared of that.
We are scared of the way that happens.
(02:43):
So when we are faced with an option, if you like, we've got two options at the end of life for our animals.
One is euthanasia which is the kindest way for a life to end for many people.
Then we've got what is most natural in being is a natural death as nature intended.
We're fearful of that wall, that death is in our minds anyway.
(03:07):
So whereas a pet parent, when we are faced with making that decision, it comes down to the one side we have fear and on the other side we have lack of education.
We don't know, we don't understand.
A lot depends on how we've been brought up, what our parents, what our friends, colleagues have shared with us that shape our beliefs.
(03:27):
So somebody who comes to me with a question like that, we have to go back in time and unravel who they are, what they actually believe, and what they actually believe a natural death is.
Because it is different things to different people, I think.
Does that make sense?
Karen Wylie (03:43):
Makes perfect sense.
We've got different factors or variables or issues from all sides of the conversation because it's not just the pet parent looking at their animal and making this decision on their own.
They're typically consulting their veterinarian about this possibility.
As we've talked at other times on the podcast, our veterinarians don't receive a lot of training in hospice care when they're going through school.
(04:13):
They receive even less about the possibility of natural death.
So that if or when we turn to them to support us in that decision, they're really thrown by it because they haven't watched a pet's body naturally decline over time with the goal of allowing that natural death.
Instead, they watch the decline maybe for a little bit of time and then it's "Okay, that's enough. It's time for euthanasia. We're going to stop it here."
(04:41):
Or maybe they let it go a little further.
We're going to stop it here.
So I think it's difficult for pet parents who would love to have their pet die peacefully at home.
In their mind might be contracting with a mobile veterinary service to come and euthanize at home.
But for others, dying peacefully at home means just that for their pet and their pet's body to naturally die at whatever time that body is going to shut down and the soul will be freed.
(05:11):
So there's different variables, different considerations.
I do so wish that more veterinarians had more experience with the process of natural death.
In so many situations, it really is possible.
It's not where it's cruel and it's always going to be deaths, always going to be painful.
Maybe this is a good time for you to talk about the fact that dying doesn't mean pain because that's an assumption that the veterinary world seems to make.
(05:40):
It's an assumption that's shared with pet parents and none of us want our babies to be in pain.
That has to be addressed but euthanasia is not the only way to address any pain that might occur during a dying process.
So could you step in here and discuss that a little bit?
Gail Pope (05:58):
Yes, so many thoughts are flooding through my mind at the moment.
I keep coming back to education all the time, so I'm going to go back there first.
I think the more that all of us can learn about the human side of dying rather than the animal— we can learn about what's normal, what's natural, what's expected.
(06:19):
We can learn about pain and suffering and all the things that come into the animal world when we start to wonder if our animals can die naturally.
What does that look like?
What does it mean?
Is it painful?
There are so many books that have been written by so many wise humans about human death, dying, pain, suffering.
(06:41):
I'm still reading them now.
I have tons and tons of books and I'm forever pulling out a book I read 10 years ago and reading it again and really reeducating myself about what is normal.
You are absolutely right.
Pain is not a normal part of the dying process that is very well established.
In fact, I think just in the last couple of weeks I watched a podcast or maybe I read a blog of Barbara Karnes— who's so well known as our guru in that world—
Karen Wylie (07:10):
In human death and dying.
Gail Pope (07:12):
She was actually talking about that subject again there.
It's established over and over again in the human world and we all know chronic illness can be very painful.
A lot of illnesses these days carry pain and pain can be treated.
The world has moved into a place where there are so many different options for treating pain.
(07:33):
So that all crosses over into the world of veterinary care where pain, again, is very well able to be treated.
Maybe not always as well as possible in some instances but 99% of pain that occurs in chronic illness, the veterinarian will have a way of helping control that pain.
(07:54):
The dying process is a natural event.
It happens to us all.
It's not something that we can avoid.
Birthing is not something we can avoid.
Living is something we can't avoid.
We might want to sometimes.
Karen Wylie (08:08):
Sometimes.
Gail Pope (08:09):
And dying is, again, it's the most natural part of that circle of life too.
So the more we can learn about what is natural in the dying process, that again, is the same for humans as it is for animals.
It's so difficult to enter these kinds of conversations because birthing isn't always the same.
(08:31):
Some births are very easy and they're done very quickly, and someone's "Oh my God, she's had a baby already? Oh my goodness, she only started in labor an hour ago."
And then there are others that it's a long drawn out labor to get into this world— and dying is the same.
We know what the normal signs and symptoms are of dying but it's like all of those signs and symptoms are a menu.
(08:56):
They don't all occur in exactly the same manner at exactly the same time.
So the more we can learn about what is normal, what is natural— we are prepared so that if a symptom comes up.
Restlessness, we know that's normal.
We know if the animal has been in pain and we are instantly, "Oh my God, he's restless. Is he in pain?"
(09:18):
We know we've been treating that pain and so we continue.
So that isn't pain.
It is the normal process of dying and there are so many of these symptoms that are normal.
But once we know that they're normal, and especially if we've accompanied a human being through the dying process, that used to be very normal for us.
(09:41):
But I know when I was a child, I wasn't allowed to be with my grandmother or my great-grandmother when they died at home.
You know that bedroom door was closed and I wasn't allowed to go in which is a huge shame because I would've learned so much.
It would've been lovely to have realized that I was in a room with a kind and gentle energy and an understanding of the passing of the spirit out of the body.
(10:08):
I would've grown up with that understanding and a natural death for an animal wouldn't have been something that I feared and was absolutely convinced was the most awful, cruel thing that could have ever happened to an animal.
I had to learn and I did so kicking and screaming.
Karen Wylie (10:25):
You and I did had a podcast conversation about this in terms of our first time experiencing a natural death for each of us.
It wasn't our choice.
We were found ourselves stuck in a situation that came up fairly suddenly and you didn't have a way to leave home to get to the clinic.
(10:45):
There you were and I was here in the mountains of the Blue Ridge during the winter in a 14 inch snowstorm and I couldn't get anywhere either.
We both experienced our first natural deaths in those situations where we didn't choose to experience them but then when we did have that experience and began reflecting on it.
After you get through the shock of "Oh my God, did that really just happen? What was that? What was that like?"
(11:10):
I'll have to call up that podcast episode because we did describe that it's quite a learning experience when you do go through it the first time.
One thing you were saying about the natural circle of life, the cycle of life, and as you were describing what happened to you as a child when you weren't allowed into that bedroom where your grandmother was dying.
(11:30):
We have put up so many different barriers to not just children but ourselves as adults.
Experiencing any aspect of the death and dying process is something that's supposed to happen in the hospital.
It's supposed to happen in the ICU.
It's supposed to happen to the ER when there's a crisis.
Even though they can't really be fixed anymore than what terminal can be fixed.
(11:53):
Then there's hospice facilities that people can go to and all of that is happening outside the purview of the average member of the family where they're just not seeing it, they don't see the person declining over time.
They're not talking to them about how that might be feeling— whether emotionally or physically or anything else.
(12:15):
It's an awkward subject.
Nobody knows quite what to say.
So they have put up all these barriers to prevent all of us from becoming comfortable with this natural cycle of life and circle of life and accepting it as natural.
Because for our animals, euthanasia is considered the ending, the perfect ending for a pet.
(12:38):
In some cases, of course, I'm sure it is depending on what's gone wrong.
When it comes to death and dying, as we always say, there's no black and white about it.
It's like all the shades of gray and what's appropriate for the pet owner, and the situation.
We don't have that wider view, that wider perspective that would allow us to absorb different kind of information and wrestle with it.
Gail Pope (12:59):
I've probably talked about this before, but again it's something that is very important and that is what each of us believe, whether we believe in spirit or soul.
You mentioned those words as you were talking, and it occurred to me then that a lot of people will back away from those words.
(13:20):
They don't believe that dying is a transition to something new or they may be scared of the idea.
It would be wonderful, "But I can't believe in that."
Again, there's an awful lot of education in an awful lot of books that can help you when you're unsure, if you're biased against then you have your own beliefs.
But I think if you do believe that life goes on in some way or some form, that is a huge prompt to start trusting in the process.
(13:50):
You can look at the "being" living in his physical house, again with a human or an animal, and you can be with them tenderly through the process of them dying which to me is gradually preparing to step out of that house into the unknown or the unknown for us.
We don't quite know what's across that bridge or along that path.
(14:15):
Although some of us do, and again, there are books— some really interesting books about what happens afterwards and people who have experienced the dying process and come back to talk about it and animals too, I'm sure.
We just don't understand their language.
It's such a difficult subject.
It's so taboo and I think whether you believe in dying naturally, peacefully with or without euthanasia, you still have fear.
(14:39):
I don't care who you are.
I think fear is there for all of us unless we remember having died and having been reborn, maybe that will wipe out the fear but very few of us remember that.
Karen Wylie (14:53):
Very few of us.
Gail Pope (14:54):
People often have said to me, "How did you get to not fear death?" And I said, "I do fear death.
I can't wipe it out.
I still don't know what it feels like.
I would love to do that."
I will learn until the day I die to step toward that understanding but am I there yet?
No.
(15:14):
Most normal people are always going to have that little fear.
So again, that's why I come back to education all the time.
The more you learn, the more you understand, the more you absorb information from other people whether it be from a book or from discussion.
It's all so helpful.
It's all so helpful.
Karen Wylie (15:34):
One of the threads that has always woven through our conversations on this podcast is that dying does not cause the pain.
Disease causes the pain.
So for most people, hearing that the first time is kind of like "What?" because that's not typically what we're going to hear from a medical professional for humans or animals but it's true.
(15:58):
So that does then bring up the point that there are certain diseases and stages of disease in animals that might make euthanasia a higher consideration or more likely needed than others.
Because natural death for me, and I know I've said this a zillion times, it's always my goal.
(16:19):
It's always my hope.
That's what I'm going to work toward with an aging animal.
But no matter what you do, you can try for that.
That can be what you strive to allow for your pet but it's no guarantee along the way.
You always have to have the backup plan.
You always have to have your ER clinic phone numbers and verify that they're open on a particular night and so forth if you need them.
(16:42):
Again, it's so much of a process and we have to be prepared for so many possible occurrences.
Gail Pope (16:49):
We do.
We do.
Karen Wylie (16:50):
And that's where I think the fact that we have "The Peaceful" PDF available for everyone is important because it works as a companion— working toward allowing a natural death with their pet.
You developed that with Kathryn Marocchino and Ella Bittel who is a holistic veterinarian.
(17:11):
Can you tell us a little bit about how the three of you got together to create that document to help other people consider allowing natural death?
Gail Pope (17:18):
Actually that takes me way, way back to around the early 2000s and one day I received a call from a lady who introduced herself as Dr. Ella Bittel and she wanted to talk to me about animal hospice care.
I said, "I think you've got the wrong person. I don't know anything about hospice." Because in those days I had just been learning everything that animals had taught me.
(17:45):
I didn't call it hospice.
To me, from my upbringing, hospice was, "Uhhh, it's all about death and I don't want to talk about it."
It's not for me.
I concentrate on my animals living well and comfortably and happily until the end of life.
So I was about to brush her off.
That conversation led to a beautiful friendship that led to me being invited to speak at the Nikki Hospice Symposium and Nikki Hospice was founded by Kathryn Marocchino.
(18:15):
So Ella was a presenter, Kathryn was a presenter, and I was a presenter.
Of course, we inevitably got together with the same passions.
So that led to a beautiful friendship of many years now.
We realized that it would be really important to help people to be able to understand that in the animal world, we do have options at the end of life.
(18:36):
We can choose euthanasia but it would be wonderful if people always chose euthanasia having already explored another option to allow the animal a natural death.
Or not necessarily to allow it but to help, to be there, to understand the signs, the symptoms, how to help, how to be present with an animal who's dying, or a human who's dying.
(18:59):
So we spent a lot of hours and time putting all our thoughts together and having some wonderful conversations.
Then we developed that handout at the end of it and we've used it for a long time now.
Karen Wylie (19:13):
I know you have and that's why a little while ago I said, "We can't start yet.
I have to do something."
I was calling up "The Peaceful (19:20):
Quality of Dying" guide because it identifies eight areas that are signs of a peaceful passing.
Each of the columns describes what corresponds to the letters of the word "Peaceful".
So starting with pain and describing what you would be looking for or expecting in the process of a natural death.
(19:45):
We'll just encourage people to download it.
It's a free download at BrightPathForPets.com and we'll put that in the show notes.
But it really guides you in understanding what you would be seeing, what you would be looking for, and helping you respond comfortably to it.
I think the name of it is perfect because we're all looking for a peaceful end for our pets but also for us.
(20:06):
Because when they physically leave us, we have to live and accept the fact that they're gone.
Sometimes we're not very kind to ourselves and we second guess and doubt and feel badly about how we handled things.
Achieving a peaceful ending for our pet and for ourselves seems to be what it's all about.
Gail, as we bring this conversation to a close, what would you like to say to people who are considering a natural passing for their pet?
Gail Pope (20:34):
I think I've harped on it a lot.
Karen Wylie (20:36):
Just a summary.
Just a summary.
Gail Pope (20:38):
I think it begins with educating yourself a lot.
Live your life filled with love for your animal and with your animal.
Take baby steps toward the end of that life and do your best, do it with love.
And that is, in all honesty to me, that is the only way to get through this process of saying goodbye or fairly well so that there are no regrets.
(21:03):
I think for most of us humans, it's looking back with regret.
That is the one thing that can be so painful.
Karen Wylie (21:11):
That totally interferes with this peaceful ending where we talk about.
Gail Pope (21:17):
However, if you can say, "I did my best. I did it with love, with great love you." You can let go because there should be no regrets.
Karen Wylie (21:27):
That as always is a beautiful place to end it.
In terms of the education that you're identifying is so important, we have a lot of resources available to you on the BrightHaven.org website as well as the BrightPathForPets.com website.
We'll have put all those in the show notes and let you choose what might help you on your journey as you want to learn and explore a little bit about this possible ending for your pet.
(21:54):
We thank you for being with us and hope you'll be back next time.
Thanks.
Bye-bye.
Gail Pope (21:59):
Thank you.
Goodbye.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(22:35):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
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