March 19, 2026 • 17 mins
When you're caring for a pet through serious illness, navigating end-of-life decisions, or grieving a loss that the people around you don't fully understand — it can feel like you're completely on your own. In this episode of Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, Karen Wylie, EdD, and Gail Pope welcome Judith Eve Rosen, LCSW — a licensed clinical social worker, veterinary social worker, and author of Life After Pet Loss: Daily Reflections for Working Through Grief — to talk about a field that most pet parents have never heard of, but almost all of us need.
Judith describes how a chance moment in a veterinary waiting room changed the direction of her career — and how she discovered that veterinary social work reaches far beyond the clinic walls. In this first of four conversations, Karen and Gail explore with Judith the full scope of what veterinary social workers do: supporting grieving pet parents, addressing compassion fatigue in veterinary staff, advocating for the human-animal bond in healthcare settings, and working at the intersection of animal welfare and family safety.
You'll also hear something that may surprise you: what veterinarians find most morally painful in their work — and why it's often not what you'd expect.
In this episode:
- What veterinary social workers actually do — and the four domains of veterinary social work
- How asking one simple question in a medical intake can transform the patient relationship
- The moral injury that veterinarians carry — and why it's rarely talked about
- How the human-animal bond is being woven into primary care and community health
- Why pet parents deserve to have someone truly in their corner
Whether you're in the middle of a caregiving journey with an aging or ill pet, looking back on a loss, or simply want to understand the support that exists for pet parents and the people who care for our animals — this conversation will open a door you didn't know was there.💜
📌 Related Resource:
- 📖 Judith’s work: https://juditheverosen.com
- 📖 Judith’s book, "Life After Pet Loss: Daily Reflections for Working Through Grief": https://a.co/d/0iLYYya1
- 📖 The BrightHaven Way: Lessons from 700 Animal Teachers is available now on a pay-what-you-wish basis - https://brightpathforpets.com/bca-shop
🌹 Join our monthly Rose Ceremony (free online pet celebration): https://brightpathforpets.com/rose-ceremony/
💬 If this episode touched your heart, you’re not alone. The BrightHaven Caregivers’ Hub is our supportive membership community for pet parents navigating caregiving, anticipatory grief, and all the moments in between.
We gather to share stories, ask questions, and care for each other as we care for our animals. If you’re walking this path, we’d be honored to walk it with you.
🔗 Learn more about the Hub: https://brightpathforpets.com/caregivers-hub/
📌Thanks for listening! Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review 🐶⭐🐱
💜 Karen Wylie, EdD is the Executive Director of the Animal Hospice Group and Co-Founder of BrightHaven Caregiver Academy. With decades of experience as an educator, caregiver, and organizational consultant, Karen has personally navigated the caregiving journey with cats, dogs, and horses through chronic illness and end-of-life transitions. Her mission is to give pet parents the tools, knowledge, and confidence to provide the best possible care for their animals at every stage of life. Learn more at BrightPathForPets.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here as always with my dear friend Gail Pope.
Today's conversation is going to be a little different and a special one because we're joined by Judith Eve Rosen, LCSW who is a licensed clinical social worker and a veterinary social worker who specializes in pet loss and grief.
Judith is the author of "Life After Pet Loss (01:12):
Daily Reflections for Working Through Grief".
So in our conversation today, we're going to explore not just grief after loss but also what happens emotionally when you're caring for a pet through illness, through decline, and the end of life decisions that we often have to make.
(01:33):
Judith has a virtual private therapy practice and has facilitated pet loss support groups at Schwartzman Animal Medical Center.
So she brings both clinical training and real world experience into her work with grieving pet parents.
If you've ever wondered whether what you're feeling is normal or how to carry both love and loss at the same time, this conversation will meet you there.
(01:57):
Judith, we're glad you're here with us.
Judith Rosen (01:59):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so happy to be here and looking forward to our conversation today.
Karen Wylie (02:04):
We have been too and of course we have many questions for you starting with your book, but there is one question I wanted to ask just getting us started and it's more on the personal level because what first drew you into working with pet loss and grief?
Judith Rosen (02:18):
Oh, yes.
It's a story that I actually talk about in the book as well.
I had already been a social worker.
I went back to school in my forties and became a social worker.
So I was doing clinical social work— working with people with substance use disorders, anxiety, depression, things like that.
But we, social workers, have this thing that we do— wherever we are, if we see people that are in need in some way or we can see there's emotional dysregulation or people are upset or angry, we go, "They need a social worker here." Like you're in the middle of a gas station, "They need a gas station social worker."
(02:55):
Because more and more there's so many different areas that social workers actually work in.
They have us in libraries now, for example.
It's a community public place and people come in and they're homeless and we connect them to services.
Karen Wylie (03:07):
Oh, how wonderful!
Judith Rosen (03:08):
We're always supporting humans.
So I was at a hospital, a veterinary hospital.
My cat at the time, Joanie, was not doing well.
She had CKD.
I was a little upset but I looked around when I was sitting in the lobby, I was, I think, waiting for them to finish a procedure they were doing.
There was a family over here where they were very upset because they didn't know how they were going to pay the bill.
(03:30):
I had a couple on my other side that were making the euthanasia decision and they were crying.
I could see across from me a veterinarian that was like really harried and really upset.
And I said, "They need a social worker here." Then I thought, "Gee, I wonder if that's a thing?
I went home that evening and I looked it up and sure enough there was a veterinary social work program, one of the first, at University of Tennessee in Knoxville and I signed up right away.
(03:57):
There's other aspects besides pet grief.
There's animal assisted interventions— veterinary staff and veterinarians, they need a lot of support.
It's difficult and there's a high suicide rate among veterinarians, as you may or may not know.
Then the fourth domain has to do with animal abuse and working in areas where, for example, there's animal hoarding or looking at the link between domestic violence and animal abuse.
(04:25):
Advocating for CPS, Child Protective Services, for some connection with animal welfare because very often the pet can be, like they said, canary in a coal mine was the old expression, I think.
They can be a signal that something is wrong.
So if an animal's brought in and the vet can tell they've been abused, then there's a chance that there's abuse going on with the children in the home, for example.
(04:49):
Unfortunately, a lot of people who are abused by their partners won't leave because the partner threatens they're going to harm the animal or because they can't go to a shelter because the shelter won't accept animals.
So we advocate for more shelters that allow pets and advocate for better laws for preventing animal abuse and so forth.
(05:12):
So that's what veterinary social workers do.
We support the human animal bond in a variety of ways.
Karen Wylie (05:18):
I am so glad because, of course, that was one of the questions I was going to ask you.
But the only aspect of what you were just describing, the only aspect I was really familiar with was someone basically working within the clinic who was providing support for compassion fatigue for the staff and the vets.
Then also perhaps providing decision making support and grief support for clients in the clinic.
(05:44):
So my understanding was very narrow of what a veterinary social worker does.
Yet as you're describing, you’ve really given the big picture of all the different ways.
Judith Rosen (05:54):
I don't know what the numbers are but I think you are describing what a great majority of, at least of the cohort I graduated with, went and worked in veterinary hospitals, veterinary practices also vet schools because the students are under a lot of pressure and they really need a lot of support.
So that's the majority.
I was already working as a clinician in a federally qualified health center which is a community health center basically here in New York.
(06:20):
So you have to do a keystone project, right?
To get your final certification and mine was integrating veterinary social work principles into basically primary care into that environment.
So would you like to hear what...?
Karen Wylie (06:37):
I would, I'd love to hear!
Gail Pope (06:39):
That's fascinating!
Judith Rosen (06:41):
Have this in mind that this was 2019 and you'll understand why I said that.
I looked at the different ways that I could incorporate the principles because I was doing what's called behavioral health integration, where I worked very closely with the primary care providers.
If somebody came in and they had depression, they would refer them to me, for example.
So we worked really hand in hand— providers would provide medication and I would check, they would do blood tests to see if maybe they had low D or low testosterone or something else affecting their mental health.
(07:11):
I thought, "How can I bring these principles here?"
One of the first things I did, I looked at the research and when a primary care provider is seeing someone for the first time, in their evaluation and their assessment, they ask if they have a pet that can increase rapport and engagement immediately.
In fact, I don't remember the numbers but in this research that I read, that increased the likelihood that client would come back a second, third, fourth time because that built that rapport.
(07:39):
Also it's data for the primary care person to know that there's a pet in the home.
So all of a sudden, they come in with a rash and maybe there's an allergy or something like that.
They have asthma.
Okay, how do I manage my asthma?
You told me you had a dog.
Let's look at how we manage it and so on.
That was one aspect that I did.
So I did a presentation for the doctors for that.
(08:01):
Then I came up with this wonderful idea because we did a lot of community outreach that I would do a night for seniors where seniors could come in and it's called "Meet the Pups".
They would come in and they would bring pictures of their pets, talk to each other about pets past and present to build rapport between the people.
(08:22):
Then I would have therapy dogs come in as well and bring in people from city agencies for example, Paws NYC.
They're a wonderful organization that help people that are maybe too ill or elderly to take care of their animals by themselves but we want to keep them together.
So they come, they walk your dog, they'll feed your cat and change the litter box.
(08:43):
So I thought it'd be great to have representatives from there, maybe shelters who foster
Karen Wylie (08:49):
Oh wow!
Wonderfully creative on your part.
Judith Rosen (08:52):
Thank you.
Karen Wylie (08:54):
And meeting the need, as you're talking about earlier.
Judith Rosen (08:55):
And as you can only imagine, I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to get permission to do this
Everything got approved and then it was 2020.
Karen Wylie (09:10):
Oh, no.
Now I understand why the date was so important because I think it was March 12th, 2020 and our world changed.
Judith Rosen (09:20):
Yes, exactly.
So I was able to educate the primary care providers that they would start asking and be more aware of how important animals were and refer grief, I forgot that part.
Refer grief patients to me which they started to do.
If somebody came in and they were like feeling down, or they were having headaches or trouble sleeping and the clinician found out that my dog passed away two weeks ago.
(09:43):
They would say, "Hey, we have this lady..." and they would refer them to me.
So I got that done but I never got to do "Meet the Pups".
However, since I had made connection with the organization that had the partners that would come in with their dogs, I brought them in for the staff during the height of the pandemic because they were so stressed out.
(10:04):
So we had therapy animals come in during two lunch hour periods pushed together and people came up like in like a group of six at a time upstairs in the executive offices because they were still freaked out by having it around patients.
The nurses and some of the doctors and lab techs and PAs and staff would come and just sit and play with the dog for 20 minutes.
(10:25):
They loved it.
You can see the reaction right away.
You can see how therapeutic it is.
It's so wonderful.
So we did get to do that.
Karen Wylie (10:34):
At the very beginning when you were describing it that you were asking if someone had a pet, didn't they make a note of that?
Because it would immediately change the dynamic when you were having your initial conversation with a client.
If someone would ask me if I had a pet, I would immediately be smiling that they even asked about my pet.
Judith Rosen (10:53):
Yes, a hundred percent.
That's exactly it!
Karen Wylie (10:55):
Then be ready to describe how much I cared about my pet.
So what a way to break barriers and begin establishing a caring relationship with someone who can be helpful.
That's just wonderful!
Judith Rosen (11:08):
Especially if you find out that your doctor also has a dog, for example, that can really build that rapport and that care.
Karen Wylie (11:14):
Absolutely!
Judith Rosen (11:15):
And it humanizes people.
We don't think of them as a robot medical professional.
Karen Wylie (11:18):
Exactly and if they say they don't have an animal, it's kinda...
Judith Rosen (11:21):
I guess it could backfire
or I say, look I wish I could have a dog, but my cat will not permit it, never going to happen in this house.
Karen Wylie (11:31):
No, not with a Tortie, that's for sure.
Judith Rosen (11:35):
No, Tortietude for days.
Yes, absolutely.
Karen Wylie (11:38):
You've described quite a variety of situations that you have found you can be helpful in.
So what kind of situations tend to bring pet parents to someone like you?
Judith Rosen (11:49):
There's two— I had delineated like the four basic components of veterinary social work and I work in two of them.
Would love to do animal assisted therapy but like I said, she ain't allowing it, so that ain't happening.
So I do bereavement and people usually find me through different directories that are out there— Association for Pet Loss and Bereavement, for example or through my website.
(12:11):
So I do pet bereavement and I do individual therapy.
Sometimes it's a couple that I work with together but it's not couples therapy, so it's not about their relationship.
Karen Wylie (12:19):
Understood.
Understood.
Judith Rosen (12:20):
That scares me.
I don't know.
Animal and human, that's enough of a relationship for me to understand.
Karen Wylie (12:26):
Let's set some boundaries.
Judith Rosen (12:27):
Exactly and I've had a few veterinarians as patients and that's been really good because they feel heard.
They don't always find people that specialize in this field to work with.
What they go through is very unique.
It's not what you think or, I don't mean you individually, it's not what one would think I should say.
You may know this but people think the moral dilemma is mainly because they have to perform euthanasia and that the euthanasia itself is traumatic.
(12:56):
But if you talk to most veterinarians, they will tell you that what is actually more traumatic is when they believe that this is what is best for the pet.
That the pet really is suffering but the pet parent does not want to make the decision.
Either they want to keep delaying it or they want to say no.
(13:16):
They know what they know with their medical knowledge so it becomes a moral injury or dilemma.
They're not able to do what they feel is the right thing to do and that can be really hard.
That can really wear on you.
So it's complicated, of course, because you're dealing with different humans that are going through different emotions.
You have empathy for both but that is one of the things that can be hard on veterinarians.
(13:41):
I remember in training one of the veterinarians said that he had a student that said someone came in with the pet and said, "I'd like you to euthanize my dog." The dog was like 12 years old.
He was very confused and he said, "The dog's healthy. He's got a little arthritis in his hips but he's healthy. Got another two, three years."
And he said, "No, I need the dog to be able to run because I need the dog for my running partner. He can't run anymore because of his arthritis." And he wanted to euthanize him.
(14:07):
Isn't that horrible?
Karen Wylie (14:09):
Yes.
Judith Rosen (14:09):
And so you can imagine— he didn't do it because a vet wouldn't do some unnecessary medical procedure but it was a very painful moment for him.
So these are the kinds of moral things that they see and deal with every day.
Gail Pope (14:25):
I was just going to say, I used to work for a vet many moons ago and I totally agree with that because that was always one of the most difficult things— tough.
How many difficult decisions that veterinarians have to make?
Judith Rosen (14:39):
All day long and now
kind of corporatization of veterinary practices, they're under more pressure, less discretion, they're under a lot of quotas to get things done quickly and to see a certain amount of patients per day.
It can be really hard.
So that's anxiety and depression come up, suicide risk comes up and so we VSWs are there to treat that.
Karen Wylie (15:05):
I'm really appreciative that you've described that to us because like I said, my understanding was very narrow.
I think for a lot of people it is because there's not that many of you out there.
Judith Rosen (15:17):
Yes, to be honest, hopefully through podcasts like this I can spread the word.
I hope I'm not evangelizing too much.
Karen Wylie (15:24):
Go for it, girl!
Judith Rosen (15:25):
I'm passionate but to be honest with you, people don't even know what social workers do.
They don't understand who we are and what we do— even I didn't.
I was volunteering at Red Cross and I was helping out on the disaster response line, people calling in for help.
There was always a mental health professional in the room with us and the woman that was with us that day was a social worker.
(15:46):
She said, "You'd really be a good social worker."
And I stupidly said, "Oh, I could never take children away from their parents." Because that's what people think, that's what they see on tv.
And she's okay, "You need to read this book." It was this wonderful book.
I think it was "52 days in the Life of a Social Worker" and it showed you like all the different types of social work (16:01):
first person accounts from different social workers, all kinds.
That's what got me hooked when I saw what the variety of options were that I could help.
Karen Wylie (16:16):
Yes because out of 52 options, surely there was one or two that felt like you.
Judith Rosen (16:20):
Yes, exactly but child welfare wasn't one of them.
It's a hard job.
People do that but it's not an easy job to do.
Karen Wylie (16:28):
No, I wouldn't think.
I would not think it was.
We hope this first conversation with Judith has opened a door you didn't know was there.
The world of Veterinary Social Work is still finding its footing, but thanks to people like Judith, it's growing and the more it grows, the more supported all of us become— pet parents and the people who care for our animals alike.
(16:51):
In our next episode, we'll go deeper with Judith into something many of you are already living, grieving a pet who is still with you.
Anticipatory grief (16:59):
what it is, how it's different from sudden loss, and how to know when the weight of it calls for more support than we can carry alone.
We'll see you there.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
(17:22):
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(17:46):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:50):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie here as always with my dear friend Gail Pope.
Today's conversation is going to be a little different and a special one because we're joined by Judith Eve Rosen, LCSW who is a licensed clinical social worker and a veterinary social worker who specializes in pet loss and grief.
Judith is the author of "Life After Pet Loss (01:12):
Daily Reflections for Working Through Grief".
So in our conversation today, we're going to explore not just grief after loss but also what happens emotionally when you're caring for a pet through illness, through decline, and the end of life decisions that we often have to make.
(01:33):
Judith has a virtual private therapy practice and has facilitated pet loss support groups at Schwartzman Animal Medical Center.
So she brings both clinical training and real world experience into her work with grieving pet parents.
If you've ever wondered whether what you're feeling is normal or how to carry both love and loss at the same time, this conversation will meet you there.
(01:57):
Judith, we're glad you're here with us.
Judith Rosen (01:59):
Thank you for having me.
I'm so happy to be here and looking forward to our conversation today.
Karen Wylie (02:04):
We have been too and of course we have many questions for you starting with your book, but there is one question I wanted to ask just getting us started and it's more on the personal level because what first drew you into working with pet loss and grief?
Judith Rosen (02:18):
Oh, yes.
It's a story that I actually talk about in the book as well.
I had already been a social worker.
I went back to school in my forties and became a social worker.
So I was doing clinical social work— working with people with substance use disorders, anxiety, depression, things like that.
But we, social workers, have this thing that we do— wherever we are, if we see people that are in need in some way or we can see there's emotional dysregulation or people are upset or angry, we go, "They need a social worker here." Like you're in the middle of a gas station, "They need a gas station social worker."
(02:55):
Because more and more there's so many different areas that social workers actually work in.
They have us in libraries now, for example.
It's a community public place and people come in and they're homeless and we connect them to services.
Karen Wylie (03:07):
Oh, how wonderful!
Judith Rosen (03:08):
We're always supporting humans.
So I was at a hospital, a veterinary hospital.
My cat at the time, Joanie, was not doing well.
She had CKD.
I was a little upset but I looked around when I was sitting in the lobby, I was, I think, waiting for them to finish a procedure they were doing.
There was a family over here where they were very upset because they didn't know how they were going to pay the bill.
(03:30):
I had a couple on my other side that were making the euthanasia decision and they were crying.
I could see across from me a veterinarian that was like really harried and really upset.
And I said, "They need a social worker here." Then I thought, "Gee, I wonder if that's a thing?
I went home that evening and I looked it up and sure enough there was a veterinary social work program, one of the first, at University of Tennessee in Knoxville and I signed up right away.
(03:57):
There's other aspects besides pet grief.
There's animal assisted interventions— veterinary staff and veterinarians, they need a lot of support.
It's difficult and there's a high suicide rate among veterinarians, as you may or may not know.
Then the fourth domain has to do with animal abuse and working in areas where, for example, there's animal hoarding or looking at the link between domestic violence and animal abuse.
(04:25):
Advocating for CPS, Child Protective Services, for some connection with animal welfare because very often the pet can be, like they said, canary in a coal mine was the old expression, I think.
They can be a signal that something is wrong.
So if an animal's brought in and the vet can tell they've been abused, then there's a chance that there's abuse going on with the children in the home, for example.
(04:49):
Unfortunately, a lot of people who are abused by their partners won't leave because the partner threatens they're going to harm the animal or because they can't go to a shelter because the shelter won't accept animals.
So we advocate for more shelters that allow pets and advocate for better laws for preventing animal abuse and so forth.
(05:12):
So that's what veterinary social workers do.
We support the human animal bond in a variety of ways.
Karen Wylie (05:18):
I am so glad because, of course, that was one of the questions I was going to ask you.
But the only aspect of what you were just describing, the only aspect I was really familiar with was someone basically working within the clinic who was providing support for compassion fatigue for the staff and the vets.
Then also perhaps providing decision making support and grief support for clients in the clinic.
(05:44):
So my understanding was very narrow of what a veterinary social worker does.
Yet as you're describing, you’ve really given the big picture of all the different ways.
Judith Rosen (05:54):
I don't know what the numbers are but I think you are describing what a great majority of, at least of the cohort I graduated with, went and worked in veterinary hospitals, veterinary practices also vet schools because the students are under a lot of pressure and they really need a lot of support.
So that's the majority.
I was already working as a clinician in a federally qualified health center which is a community health center basically here in New York.
(06:20):
So you have to do a keystone project, right?
To get your final certification and mine was integrating veterinary social work principles into basically primary care into that environment.
So would you like to hear what...?
Karen Wylie (06:37):
I would, I'd love to hear!
Gail Pope (06:39):
That's fascinating!
Judith Rosen (06:41):
Have this in mind that this was 2019 and you'll understand why I said that.
I looked at the different ways that I could incorporate the principles because I was doing what's called behavioral health integration, where I worked very closely with the primary care providers.
If somebody came in and they had depression, they would refer them to me, for example.
So we worked really hand in hand— providers would provide medication and I would check, they would do blood tests to see if maybe they had low D or low testosterone or something else affecting their mental health.
(07:11):
I thought, "How can I bring these principles here?"
One of the first things I did, I looked at the research and when a primary care provider is seeing someone for the first time, in their evaluation and their assessment, they ask if they have a pet that can increase rapport and engagement immediately.
In fact, I don't remember the numbers but in this research that I read, that increased the likelihood that client would come back a second, third, fourth time because that built that rapport.
(07:39):
Also it's data for the primary care person to know that there's a pet in the home.
So all of a sudden, they come in with a rash and maybe there's an allergy or something like that.
They have asthma.
Okay, how do I manage my asthma?
You told me you had a dog.
Let's look at how we manage it and so on.
That was one aspect that I did.
So I did a presentation for the doctors for that.
(08:01):
Then I came up with this wonderful idea because we did a lot of community outreach that I would do a night for seniors where seniors could come in and it's called "Meet the Pups".
They would come in and they would bring pictures of their pets, talk to each other about pets past and present to build rapport between the people.
(08:22):
Then I would have therapy dogs come in as well and bring in people from city agencies for example, Paws NYC.
They're a wonderful organization that help people that are maybe too ill or elderly to take care of their animals by themselves but we want to keep them together.
So they come, they walk your dog, they'll feed your cat and change the litter box.
(08:43):
So I thought it'd be great to have representatives from there, maybe shelters who foster
Karen Wylie (08:49):
Oh wow!
Wonderfully creative on your part.
Judith Rosen (08:52):
Thank you.
Karen Wylie (08:54):
And meeting the need, as you're talking about earlier.
Judith Rosen (08:55):
And as you can only imagine, I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to get permission to do this
Everything got approved and then it was 2020.
Karen Wylie (09:10):
Oh, no.
Now I understand why the date was so important because I think it was March 12th, 2020 and our world changed.
Judith Rosen (09:20):
Yes, exactly.
So I was able to educate the primary care providers that they would start asking and be more aware of how important animals were and refer grief, I forgot that part.
Refer grief patients to me which they started to do.
If somebody came in and they were like feeling down, or they were having headaches or trouble sleeping and the clinician found out that my dog passed away two weeks ago.
(09:43):
They would say, "Hey, we have this lady..." and they would refer them to me.
So I got that done but I never got to do "Meet the Pups".
However, since I had made connection with the organization that had the partners that would come in with their dogs, I brought them in for the staff during the height of the pandemic because they were so stressed out.
(10:04):
So we had therapy animals come in during two lunch hour periods pushed together and people came up like in like a group of six at a time upstairs in the executive offices because they were still freaked out by having it around patients.
The nurses and some of the doctors and lab techs and PAs and staff would come and just sit and play with the dog for 20 minutes.
(10:25):
They loved it.
You can see the reaction right away.
You can see how therapeutic it is.
It's so wonderful.
So we did get to do that.
Karen Wylie (10:34):
At the very beginning when you were describing it that you were asking if someone had a pet, didn't they make a note of that?
Because it would immediately change the dynamic when you were having your initial conversation with a client.
If someone would ask me if I had a pet, I would immediately be smiling that they even asked about my pet.
Judith Rosen (10:53):
Yes, a hundred percent.
That's exactly it!
Karen Wylie (10:55):
Then be ready to describe how much I cared about my pet.
So what a way to break barriers and begin establishing a caring relationship with someone who can be helpful.
That's just wonderful!
Judith Rosen (11:08):
Especially if you find out that your doctor also has a dog, for example, that can really build that rapport and that care.
Karen Wylie (11:14):
Absolutely!
Judith Rosen (11:15):
And it humanizes people.
We don't think of them as a robot medical professional.
Karen Wylie (11:18):
Exactly and if they say they don't have an animal, it's kinda...
Judith Rosen (11:21):
I guess it could backfire
or I say, look I wish I could have a dog, but my cat will not permit it, never going to happen in this house.
Karen Wylie (11:31):
No, not with a Tortie, that's for sure.
Judith Rosen (11:35):
No, Tortietude for days.
Yes, absolutely.
Karen Wylie (11:38):
You've described quite a variety of situations that you have found you can be helpful in.
So what kind of situations tend to bring pet parents to someone like you?
Judith Rosen (11:49):
There's two— I had delineated like the four basic components of veterinary social work and I work in two of them.
Would love to do animal assisted therapy but like I said, she ain't allowing it, so that ain't happening.
So I do bereavement and people usually find me through different directories that are out there— Association for Pet Loss and Bereavement, for example or through my website.
(12:11):
So I do pet bereavement and I do individual therapy.
Sometimes it's a couple that I work with together but it's not couples therapy, so it's not about their relationship.
Karen Wylie (12:19):
Understood.
Understood.
Judith Rosen (12:20):
That scares me.
I don't know.
Animal and human, that's enough of a relationship for me to understand.
Karen Wylie (12:26):
Let's set some boundaries.
Judith Rosen (12:27):
Exactly and I've had a few veterinarians as patients and that's been really good because they feel heard.
They don't always find people that specialize in this field to work with.
What they go through is very unique.
It's not what you think or, I don't mean you individually, it's not what one would think I should say.
You may know this but people think the moral dilemma is mainly because they have to perform euthanasia and that the euthanasia itself is traumatic.
(12:56):
But if you talk to most veterinarians, they will tell you that what is actually more traumatic is when they believe that this is what is best for the pet.
That the pet really is suffering but the pet parent does not want to make the decision.
Either they want to keep delaying it or they want to say no.
(13:16):
They know what they know with their medical knowledge so it becomes a moral injury or dilemma.
They're not able to do what they feel is the right thing to do and that can be really hard.
That can really wear on you.
So it's complicated, of course, because you're dealing with different humans that are going through different emotions.
You have empathy for both but that is one of the things that can be hard on veterinarians.
(13:41):
I remember in training one of the veterinarians said that he had a student that said someone came in with the pet and said, "I'd like you to euthanize my dog." The dog was like 12 years old.
He was very confused and he said, "The dog's healthy. He's got a little arthritis in his hips but he's healthy. Got another two, three years."
And he said, "No, I need the dog to be able to run because I need the dog for my running partner. He can't run anymore because of his arthritis." And he wanted to euthanize him.
(14:07):
Isn't that horrible?
Karen Wylie (14:09):
Yes.
Judith Rosen (14:09):
And so you can imagine— he didn't do it because a vet wouldn't do some unnecessary medical procedure but it was a very painful moment for him.
So these are the kinds of moral things that they see and deal with every day.
Gail Pope (14:25):
I was just going to say, I used to work for a vet many moons ago and I totally agree with that because that was always one of the most difficult things— tough.
How many difficult decisions that veterinarians have to make?
Judith Rosen (14:39):
All day long and now
kind of corporatization of veterinary practices, they're under more pressure, less discretion, they're under a lot of quotas to get things done quickly and to see a certain amount of patients per day.
It can be really hard.
So that's anxiety and depression come up, suicide risk comes up and so we VSWs are there to treat that.
Karen Wylie (15:05):
I'm really appreciative that you've described that to us because like I said, my understanding was very narrow.
I think for a lot of people it is because there's not that many of you out there.
Judith Rosen (15:17):
Yes, to be honest, hopefully through podcasts like this I can spread the word.
I hope I'm not evangelizing too much.
Karen Wylie (15:24):
Go for it, girl!
Judith Rosen (15:25):
I'm passionate but to be honest with you, people don't even know what social workers do.
They don't understand who we are and what we do— even I didn't.
I was volunteering at Red Cross and I was helping out on the disaster response line, people calling in for help.
There was always a mental health professional in the room with us and the woman that was with us that day was a social worker.
(15:46):
She said, "You'd really be a good social worker."
And I stupidly said, "Oh, I could never take children away from their parents." Because that's what people think, that's what they see on tv.
And she's okay, "You need to read this book." It was this wonderful book.
I think it was "52 days in the Life of a Social Worker" and it showed you like all the different types of social work (16:01):
first person accounts from different social workers, all kinds.
That's what got me hooked when I saw what the variety of options were that I could help.
Karen Wylie (16:16):
Yes because out of 52 options, surely there was one or two that felt like you.
Judith Rosen (16:20):
Yes, exactly but child welfare wasn't one of them.
It's a hard job.
People do that but it's not an easy job to do.
Karen Wylie (16:28):
No, I wouldn't think.
I would not think it was.
We hope this first conversation with Judith has opened a door you didn't know was there.
The world of Veterinary Social Work is still finding its footing, but thanks to people like Judith, it's growing and the more it grows, the more supported all of us become— pet parents and the people who care for our animals alike.
(16:51):
In our next episode, we'll go deeper with Judith into something many of you are already living, grieving a pet who is still with you.
Anticipatory grief (16:59):
what it is, how it's different from sudden loss, and how to know when the weight of it calls for more support than we can carry alone.
We'll see you there.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
(17:22):
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(17:46):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
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