August 19, 2026 • 26 mins
If your pet died while you stepped out of the room, or you weren't able to be there in their final moments, you may still carry guilt about it. In this episode, Karen Wylie, EdD and Gail Pope close out their four-part series on hospice myths by exploring the tender territory of being present at the time of death.
We tackle three deeply held beliefs that can weigh heavily on pet parents:
- The myth that when animals die alone, their loved ones have failed them — and why so many animals seem to wait until we step away
- The myth that children should be shielded from a dying pet — and what decades of hospice experience shows about what children are actually capable of understanding
- The myth that men don't cry — and why permission to grieve openly matters for every caregiver, regardless of gender
Along the way, Gail shares a deeply personal story about being present at her husband Richard's death, and what it taught her about letting go. She also tells the story of her granddaughter Emma and a beloved cat named Elvis — a moment that reshaped how she understands children and natural death.
Whether your pet is still with you or you're carrying grief from a loss in the past, this conversation offers real permission: you don't have to be in the room at the exact right moment to have loved well. You did your best, and you did it with love. And that is enough.💜
📌 Related Resource:
- 📖 Menu for Healing - https://brightpathforpets.com/resources/brighthaven-menu-for-healing/
- 📖 The LIVING Assessment- https://brightpathforpets.com/resources/living-quality-of-life-assessment/ A BrightPath TRANSITION Series Booklet - https://brightpathforpets.com/soul-centered-care-booklet/
- 📖 Nourishing Through Illness: Supporting Appetite, Comfort, and Care for Pets with Life-Changing Diagnoses - brightpathforpets.com/nourishing-through-illness
- 📖 The Pet Legacy & Lifetime Care Planning Workbook - brightpathforpets.com/pet-future-care-planning-workbook
- 📖 The BrightHaven Way: Lessons from 700 Animal Teachers PDF: https://brightpathforpets.com/brighthaven-way-book/
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📖 Download the PEACEFUL Quality of Dying Guide: Signs of a Peaceful Passing at: https://brightpathforpets.com/resources-html/
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📖 Walking The BrightPath: A Pet Parent’s Guide To Home Hospice And Natural Transition - https://brightpathforpets.com/blog/pet-hospice-guide
🌹 Join our monthly Rose Ceremony (free online pet celebration): https://brightpathforpets.com/rose-ceremony/
💬 If this episode touched your heart, you’re not alone. The BrightHaven Caregivers’ Hub is our supportive membership community for pet parents navigating caregiving, anticipatory grief, and all the moments in between.
We gather to share stories, ask questions, and care for each other as we care for our animals. If you’re walking this path, we’d be honored to walk it with you.
🔗 Learn more about the Hub: https://brightpathforpets.com/caregivers-hub/
📌Thanks for listening! Don’t forget to subscribe and leave a review 🐶⭐🐱
💜 Karen Wylie, EdD is the Executive Director of the Animal Hospice Group and Co-Founder of BrightHaven Caregiver Academy. With decades of experience as an educator, caregiver, and organizational consultant, Karen has personally navigated the caregiving journey with cats, dogs, and horses through chronic illness and end-of-life transitions. Her mission is to give pet parents the tools, knowledge, and confidence to provide the best possible care for their animals at every stage of life. Learn more at BrightPathForPets.com
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:51):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie.
Here as always with Gail Pope, founder of BrightHaven.
Over the last few weeks, we have been talking about why families wait so long for hospice care, what happens in the body as an animal is dying, and the beliefs that can get in the way of a peaceful ending.
(01:12):
Today we're going to close out this series on myths with what might be the most tender territory yet.
That's the myths about being present at the time an animal is dying.
The guilt that so many of us can carry about not being there at exactly the right time, the right moment can be really difficult, and we sometimes fear we failed our pet or that it's too late to say the things we want to say.
(01:38):
We can really get ourselves in quite a quandary about this.
And so the question of who gets to be part of this experience of being present at the time of death, is an important one for us to discuss including the role of our children in being present.
So Gail, let me ask you, as always, to start us off because the first myth is that when animals die alone, their loved ones have somehow failed them.
(02:01):
It's one of the most painful beliefs I think any pet parent can carry forward with them, the idea that their pet died alone in another room or in one moment when they happen to step away, that they have failed them.
So why do so many animals wait till their person leaves the room to die?
Gail Pope (02:18):
Oh, glad you opened with that as a question because that's an easy one, I think, because over the years it's become really clear to me.
At least, maybe I'm wrong, but it has become clear to me that our bond with our animals is so strong that if we are not able to reach a place during the beginning of the transition to let them know that it's okay to go, let them know, "I'll be okay. You can go."
(02:44):
I think very often if we don't do that or we do it but we don't really mean it and at some level I don't think we ever do mean it, but I think we have to achieve an understanding with our animal that it's okay.
I have to go to the store and buy food.
I'm only going to be half an hour and it's okay if you need to go.
You walk away with your heart breaking and, "Oh my God, this is terrible. I shouldn't do this. I can't go."
(03:09):
And you generally will come back and they're just the same, and occasionally you may come back and they have passed.
They're lying where they were, completely peaceful, and you blame yourself.
It's like, "Why? What's…" This is okay.
And I think it's probably because people like you and I have experienced these things more than once.
So we've learned that although our heart is hurting, that we really wanted to be with them, that we can't always get it every way.
(03:36):
I think sometimes the attachment is so strong that the animal chooses to go to protect us, as it were in some way, because they just don't have or can't gather the impetus to step out while we're with them because the bond is so strong that they're trying to stay for us.
I think we see that over and over in the world of human medicine.
(03:56):
We see humans, let's say, and animals too, holding on because somebody is flying in from another country to be with them in their last days or hours.
They wait for them to come.
Sometimes the opposite happens.
The family are going to the canteen for a well-deserved cup of tea and just letting her rest for a while, and they come back after literally five minutes and it's like, "Oh my God, she's not breathing. Oh no, this can't be. What have we done?" You've given her the grace to let go and to be able to step out without you all hovering.
(04:27):
It's hard because we tend to make the end of life for our loved ones personal to us.
I don't mean that in any negative kind of way and of course it is personal to us but it's hard for us to let go.
While we're holding on to this love and not allowing it to flow so that we can flow with them as they leave.
I'll let you continue that part.
(04:48):
Otherwise, I've got another half an hour.
Karen Wylie (04:49):
I do have more questions, maybe that'll trigger some of the additional thoughts that you haven't shared just yet.
But it is such a difficult thing to work through because our relationship and our bond is so strong with our pets and yet we need to step away for daily chores.
We need to step away to get something to eat or a cup of tea or something to drink.
(05:11):
Sometimes till 4:00 in the morning and it's, "My God, I've got to get a few hours of sleep to go on with the day, with my work, with my other obligations." And I've certainly had that happen where, as I've mentioned at various times, I'll wake up knowing they've left.
It's like I feel them cross over and I go and check and "Yep, they just left."
So I've certainly had that happen a lot of times, more so with me being able to be present because I do feel better when I'm there.
(05:37):
But at the same time, if we leave, then your conscious thoughts are a little bit physically removed if you go to a different room or leave the house.
Then they have a little more freedom to choose to go at that point.
Whatever allows them the easiest way, the most peaceful way to pass is certainly, I think, what every one of us really wants for them but we also really want to be there.
(06:03):
But to feel guilty about it, we don't want them to do that.
So what would you say to a pet parent, what should they know so that if they're carrying guilt about this kind of situation from a past loss that they can let that go?
Gail Pope (06:15):
I don't know.
I think It's hard to know what to say.
We're all different and we all hold on to these kinds of things very stubbornly, as it were.
We don't let go.
I think when we blame ourselves for something, it really is hard to give that level of forgiveness that we would give to others.
So I don't know that there's ever a real way.
(06:36):
The only way that I've been helped is by education, by to learn more and more, and learning from animals.
Particularly, from me, learning from the world of human medicine.
Actually, a story just came to mind that I don't think that I have shared before.
At least, have I shared the story of when my husband died?
I don't think I have?
Karen Wylie (06:56):
Go ahead and share.
Nothing's coming to mind that you've told us.
Gail Pope (06:59):
No, me neither, and it just jumped into my mind as part of this conversation, so I guess I will share it.
Richard was very clear.
He was in hospital.
He was very close to the end of life.
My daughter, her husband and her daughter, my granddaughter, were with him.
Various doctors, nurses coming and going.
And he was dying but not leaving.
(07:22):
Kirstie was sitting on one side of the bed, I was sitting on the other, and we were each holding his hand and talking to other people at the same time.
And then looking back and looking at the machines and wondering and looking at each other.
It's a difficult time.
Then I think one of the nurses came into the room with a couple of other people, and they wanted to have a conversation with me about his meds, that they were gradually diminishing.
(07:46):
Oh, actually, it was the hospice doctor.
So I got up and went to the bottom of the bed and was talking with them.
So Kirstie was left talking to us but staying with Richard.
We were having this conversation and all of a sudden Kirstie said, "Mom, I think he's gone." And he had.
And that's part of it.
It only came to me afterwards.
I was sitting holding his hand and so was Kirstie.
(08:09):
Both of us but I think the pull of both of us was probably— he was fighting not to let go.
But when I left and I actually had diverted my attention from the being together and let go, he went "whew," and stepped out.
So that sits under the whole thing, and having seen that with animals too.
(08:30):
Not so often, I think I've probably educated my animals enough that they darn well stay and wait for me.
But occasionally, no, they don't and they do need to go on their own.
I've learned to forgive that.
Not forgive me, but I've learned to forgive them.
Karen Wylie (08:47):
"How could you leave without me there?" The thing is, we tell them it's okay to go but then if they do, it's like, "What?
How could you have left without me?"
But they know we love them and that's really what matters most, not the exact physical presence of being there at the exact moment.
We've shared enough love.
We've often had a lifetime of love with them before this happens and they really do understand.
Gail Pope (09:09):
Absolutely.
I was also thinking that this now heralds the time where maybe we talk a little bit about the spiritual connection.
Because although they may have stepped out while you were not there, you may get a sense while you were somewhere else that, "I need to go back." Then you find that they've left.
They may actually come tell you.
(09:30):
You just get this feeling.
Maybe you're not terribly spiritual but you've got this feeling, "I need to hurry back", and then you find they've gone.
Hold on a moment.
That's okay.
They loved you enough to come find you and just let you know, "It's okay".
Not you need to really blame yourself.
"It's okay. I was with you."
And that leads into the next part of the conversation, where if you just sit quietly rather than blaming, judging, and being upset at what's happened, just sit there and be quiet, and you may feel that presence.
(10:01):
That's happened to so many people and with so many animals.
"Oh my goodness. Just let go. Let's just sit here quietly in the moment", and you may just feel a presence.
You may not.
You may see a feather float down past the window.
There are so many different types of feelings, things that happen, not generally immediately, but in the next day or two.
(10:21):
If you remain open, not begging but just allowing.
I think the more we want something, the less we're likely to get it.
But it's in those unexpected moments that something will suddenly occur.
You may be washing up, you're still feeling sad and miserable, and a big yellow butterfly will suddenly hover outside the window.
Just accept it.
(10:42):
Just take it.
It's manna for the soul.
Karen Wylie (10:44):
I think that, that brings us also to the fact that if they have just passed, there's still time to hold their paw.
Gail Pope (10:53):
Exactly.
Karen Wylie (10:54):
There's still time to talk to them because the soul generally leaves the body gradually and sometimes several days.
They're still basically around.
Part of it depends on the age.
I think in my experience, my pets who are dying naturally essentially of old age, are ready to go and do leave faster than many of the younger ones that have died.
(11:17):
But there's still time for you to talk to them.
There's still time for you to continue to say how much you love them.
They're going to hear it.
They're going to know.
Gail Pope (11:25):
When you get that strong feeling of presence, it's just so very beautiful.
So very beautiful.
Karen Wylie (11:30):
Yes, absolutely.
So many families seem to feel that once their pet is unresponsive, when they are entering a coma, that their chance to say goodbye has already passed.
But whether the pet is still breathing and alive or whether they have just passed, it's still not too late.
You can just continue to express your love for them.
Gail Pope (11:51):
Oh, Yes.
Oh, Yes
Karen Wylie (11:52):
Now, most of the training I have had about our senses and how they are gradually lost as we approach the moment of death, is that we can still feel touch and our hearing is generally the last of our senses to go.
Is that also what you've learned?
Gail Pope (12:10):
Yes, definitely.
I think hearing is the last thing to go which is why in both human and animal worlds, especially in the human world, the hospice nurse will be saying, "It's okay.
He's getting close now.
Just hold his hand and just keep talking.
He may not answer, but he can hear you.
Just keep talking."
And when my father was dying in bed and I was holding his hand or actually he was holding mine quite tight.
(12:34):
I was talking to him, there was absolutely no response whatsoever, but just every now and again, he would just give quite a firm squeeze of my hand.
But other than that, there was no sign of life at all.
But I knew he was there, and I knew he was listening.
Somehow there's a magic in transition if we can go with it as transition and be part of it.
Karen Wylie (12:55):
And not to be so afraid of it and not to be so afraid that you're doing something wrong because there's really nothing you can do that is wrong.
Gail Pope (13:03):
No, there is nothing.
Karen Wylie (13:05):
So Gail, what would you suggest a family actually say or do in those final few hours?
If they're not sure where to start, where would you suggest they start?
Gail Pope (13:13):
I think it's different for everybody.
I think if you're alone with someone, then probably you're talking about the love, the times.
You're talking about sad things that you've shared.
But I think the most beneficial are talking about the happy things that you've shared.
The memories and how much you loved something.
That brings joy to both of you, even though you can't necessarily share it in the way you normally would.
(13:38):
There's a knowing that, "Oh my goodness, that was amazing."
And if you're with family members, again, whether they're two-legged or four-legged, it's the same thing.
You share memories.
Remember when those kittens came and they were so naughty, they were climbing the curtains.
You can tell all sorts of stories and I think in the sharing of things like that, it lightens your load.
(13:59):
The memory brings joy and maybe it's fleeting.
It's, "Oh my gosh, I shouldn't be laughing now, this is terrible." But it's okay because it's a beautiful thing— sharing and caring.
Karen Wylie (14:09):
Absolutely.
Raising your vibration a little bit like that.
Remembering those wonderful things is helpful to you, it's helpful to them.
It's lovely.
Gail Pope (14:18):
It's easier with humans— with a human family because you speak the same language and you can talk about a memory, and you can all laugh and you can cry.
The emotion is easily shared.
When your family are all animals, it's a different language but you can still do it.
It's still seeing our animal doulas who have accompanied animals through the dying process.
(14:41):
We've been family.
I haven't just been watching them doing what they're doing and saying, "Oh, that's so sweet." You embrace them as family, and we talk to each other.
Maybe I can't understand everything they're saying to me.
Karen Wylie (14:52):
But you can understand a heck of a lot.
Gail Pope (14:54):
But it is togetherness and acceptance.
If you're on your own and there's nobody else with you and your animal, then you share those memories.
Karen Wylie (15:02):
Yes.
Gail Pope (15:03):
And it's just so beautiful.
It's personal, and it means the world to both of you.
Karen Wylie (15:07):
Absolutely.
While we're talking about who gets to be present in these moments and what to say, I want us to take a minute and talk about a group who we don't discuss nearly enough really, and that is our children.
Because one of the myths is that children should be kept away from dying loved ones, that's just going to be too difficult for them to be a part of.
(15:28):
And this is with both humans and pets, to not have them there for the moment the process of dying or wakes and funerals for humans that is more common than wakes or funerals we have for our pets.
But I think this is one that many parents wrestle with because they want to protect their children from something they expect will be very painful.
(15:50):
And they wonder if keeping them away is actually the best thing or the kindest thing to do.
So let me throw that back to you, Gail, what have you seen in your own experience with children and dying animals?
Gail Pope (16:02):
When I was a child, I never knew where my animals went.
They just disappeared.
And I wasn't really given a reason or it was just time for him to go.
It didn't occur to me to really delve deeper into that.
I think as children, young children, we probably don't.
Then I think if you're in a religious or a spiritual family, then little by little maybe you learn a little bit more as you're growing.
(16:25):
But for the most part, we shield our children.
I know when my great-grandmother was dying, she was upstairs in her bedroom and the door was shut, and I was told, "It's okay. Nanny's not well. Don't go in there and disturb her."
I wasn't allowed in and then she disappeared.
And again, looking back now, oh my gosh, I should have been involved because I would have been able to say goodbye to her.
(16:48):
I know that I would have understood.
I think children accept and understand death at a very young age.
We just don't understand or believe that they are capable of really accepting.
They seem to have an inherent understanding of death.
Karen Wylie (17:03):
Yes.
Gail Pope (17:04):
Particularly, when spiders and little teeny creepy crawly animals and they catch them.
They keep them, and then they die.
They accept that they're not there anymore.
They accept the dead body as it were and, "Oh, it's very sad and maybe I have to get another one."
But depending on what their reaction is as they start to grow older and how we educate them little by little in baby steps towards whatever our understanding.
(17:31):
It's difficult because we all have a different understanding of death and whether or not there's an afterlife.
That determines again how we educate our children.
My granddaughter grew up at BrightHaven and there is no way that she would ever have been shut out of new animals arriving or older or sicker animals leaving.
It was all part of a natural transition of coming in and going out.
(17:55):
Funnily enough, I came across a beautiful photograph recently of Emma when she was probably about five or six years old with— what was her name?
I can't remember.
Camille, Camilla?
Can't think quite of the name.
A pet mouse and she died.
We put her in a basket and she had all pink bedding and some pink flowers around her.
(18:15):
The picture was of Emma leaning over the basket just smiling beautifully at her.
Children can accept and understand this.
They can honor the love that they shared together.
It feels very different for them, well, as for us obviously.
Karen Wylie (18:30):
How I feel that how we handle death, dying, and loss with children about their animals is what allows them to develop an understanding of death and dying as they age and become adults.
We always talk about the shorter lifespan that our animals have.
So it's more likely that our children would experience the loss of a pet more often than they would the loss of a significant human in their life.
(18:55):
Thinking back to some of the ways it was handled when I was a child, I would be told that a dog who was actually hit by a car was that he ran away.
You're there as a seven, eight-year-old child and you're thinking, "But I loved him, he loved me. He would never leave." You know, it's like some of the stories that adults tell children can really affect how they understand relationships over time.
(19:19):
So being as honest as possible and involving them in some way, especially in an anticipatory way, would help them later on.
One of my favorite stories that you have shared is about your granddaughter, Emma and Elvis the cat.
Would you tell everybody that one?
Gail Pope (19:36):
Are you sure?
Karen Wylie (19:38):
Yes, I am sure.
I think because it does show how Emma, as a child, was being exposed to death and dying differently, and so she responded differently.
Gail Pope (19:48):
Yes.
Again, he died at home.
I wasn't present for this experience.
They didn't live with us at this time.
Anyway, he died in the evening, at, at nighttime, and the following morning Kirstie had planned to bring him to BrightHaven and set him up in state at the sanctuary.
And with the normal family rush, she got herself ready.
(20:10):
She's shouting for Emma to be ready.
Got to go, say goodbye to Elvis.
And she got in the car, and she got the engine started, and then she's honking the horn, "Come on, we're going to be late." And Emma arrives.
cuddling a dead body.
And Kirstie said, "What are you doing? I'm taking him to Catnan’s.
You know I'm taking him there later."
And Emma said, "Mom, he looks just so beautiful. I'm taking him to school with me to show my teachers and my friends. I think they will love him." That was quite a shock that day but what a beautiful acceptance.
(20:40):
Just beautiful, just beautiful.
Karen Wylie (20:42):
It is.
It just shows how possible it is for a child to incorporate death and dying in day to day as part of wanting to share with other people.
I just love that story.
Gail Pope (20:54):
I think things like that are part of where my understanding grew of the term the "body house".
The house that we live in is our body, and then when that body is no longer able to sustain the life that we're used to, we step out of that body.
That story, it really elucidates it for me.
He wasn't in his body anymore but his body was just so beautiful.
(21:16):
Look at how lovely he looks.
He's groomed and he looks absolutely beautiful.
And yet she understood, since she'd experienced it more than several times.
He was no longer part of that body, but she wanted to honor him by taking him to show her friends and teachers.
And it's so easy to accept death as transition at such a young age.
(21:38):
You grow up with a different outlook on life really, I think.
Karen Wylie (21:42):
Yes, yes.
I'm sure that's got to be true.
Sure it has to be true.
Thank you for sharing that because I do love that story.
I do love it.
Gail Pope (21:49):
That's so funny, isn't it?
Karen Wylie (21:50):
Yes.
All right, one more myth before we close.
It's a pretty short one but it's the myth that men don't cry.
Gail Pope (21:57):
Oh.
Karen Wylie (21:57):
Anything you want to say to that one?
Gail Pope (21:59):
I thought we started with that at the beginning of a previous podcast conversation.
But absolutely, it's one of my favorites, it really is.
Particularly because, not as often as with ladies, but I do have gentlemen approach me to do a consultation for a beloved animal.
You can see they're struggling with their emotions.
(22:19):
And I've learned now to tell them it's okay to cry.
Crying produces tears, it produces endorphins in the brain, hormones that we call them the "feel-good" hormones, that releases tension and it's not babyish to cry.
When our children are growing up, as a culture, "Boys don't cry, darling. It's men don't cry."
(22:40):
Then as we get older, it flows into society.
You'll see a sad event with men and women all present, and you'll see the women crying freely.
You'll see some men crying, but you'll see most of them staunchly just looking so moved.
But they don't cry to let it go.
Karen Wylie (22:56):
I think one of the things we talked about in recent weeks was the fact that there's a lot of single men, a lot of divorced men who are the primary caregivers of their pets.
More so than ever before, and it's very important that they cry and they grieve because they loved very deeply.
Gail Pope (23:15):
Yes and the other important part is to cry with your animal when they're approaching end of life rather than go and hide yourself away, and that applies to men and women.
Karen Wylie (23:25):
True.
Gail Pope (23:25):
And children.
If you're sad for them, share that with them.
Karen Wylie (23:29):
Yes.
Gail Pope (23:29):
They know you're crying.
They do.
They speak our language, and they're not stupid.
They totally understand our distress, and it's about them.
if we hide ourselves away, they feel helpless.
They're shut away in a different place.
Whereas if we share, then they can express their part in that emotion, too.
Karen Wylie (23:45):
Absolutely.
With everything that we've covered today with terms of our myths related to being present at the time of death, being able to say goodbye, the role of children, what's the one thread that ties it all together for you with these myths?
Gail Pope (24:00):
It's always love, isn't it?
Love joins us all in every single thing we do in our lives.
Because if we, again, we take baby steps through life and we express love for everybody and everything as much as we can.
I guess there are some we can't express love for however much we try, like a huge black spider on the wall.
(24:20):
You have to sometimes steel yourself.
I think I've gradually talked myself through that fear now.
I still have an inherent *groan* but then I find if I talk to them then I relax and let go, you can feel it.
So yes, love is the most important thing.
Karen Wylie (24:35):
Yes, absolutely.
Let me just do a quick recap here.
We covered four myths about being present at the end of our pets' lives.
That dying alone means you failed your pet, nope.
The belief that it's too late to say goodbye once they're unresponsive or in a coma or even right after they've died— it's never too late.
(24:56):
That children should be shielded from the dying loved ones in their life, and we're suggesting to you that they should actually be involved from the very beginning and allowed to grieve in an anticipatory way and all the way through.
And certainly, men are allowed to cry through it, too.
Every one of those beliefs comes from love, as we're talking about it, but every one of those myths deserves to be set down.
(25:20):
I think as we look at those last myths, it really shows us we don't have to be perfect to love well or to grieve well.
You don't have to be in the room for the exact right minute, say the exact right words.
Your pet already knows how loved they are and everything that you have done to get them that far.
(25:40):
Gail, as you said, they know how loved they are and you did your best and you did it with love, and that is enough.
We'll see you next week as we'll keep walking this journey together.
Bye-bye now.
Gail Pope (25:51):
Thank you.
Goodbye.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(26:28):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
Welcome to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents, the podcast by BrightHaven Caregiver Academy.
I'm Gail Pope and I'm Karen Wylie and together we're here to support you in navigating life with your aging or ill pets.
We know how deeply you care for your beloved companions, and we're here to offer guidance, understanding, and resources for this meaningful journey.
(00:25):
Each episode we'll explore topics that address the daily challenges, emotional realities, and choices you face as a pet parent helping you and your pets find peace, comfort, and joy.
Whether it's making sense of a new diagnosis, adjusting to changing needs, or simply seeking a place to feel understood, you're not alone.
(00:47):
Thank you for being here with us.
Karen Wylie (00:51):
Hello and welcome back to Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
I'm Karen Wylie.
Here as always with Gail Pope, founder of BrightHaven.
Over the last few weeks, we have been talking about why families wait so long for hospice care, what happens in the body as an animal is dying, and the beliefs that can get in the way of a peaceful ending.
(01:12):
Today we're going to close out this series on myths with what might be the most tender territory yet.
That's the myths about being present at the time an animal is dying.
The guilt that so many of us can carry about not being there at exactly the right time, the right moment can be really difficult, and we sometimes fear we failed our pet or that it's too late to say the things we want to say.
(01:38):
We can really get ourselves in quite a quandary about this.
And so the question of who gets to be part of this experience of being present at the time of death, is an important one for us to discuss including the role of our children in being present.
So Gail, let me ask you, as always, to start us off because the first myth is that when animals die alone, their loved ones have somehow failed them.
(02:01):
It's one of the most painful beliefs I think any pet parent can carry forward with them, the idea that their pet died alone in another room or in one moment when they happen to step away, that they have failed them.
So why do so many animals wait till their person leaves the room to die?
Gail Pope (02:18):
Oh, glad you opened with that as a question because that's an easy one, I think, because over the years it's become really clear to me.
At least, maybe I'm wrong, but it has become clear to me that our bond with our animals is so strong that if we are not able to reach a place during the beginning of the transition to let them know that it's okay to go, let them know, "I'll be okay. You can go."
(02:44):
I think very often if we don't do that or we do it but we don't really mean it and at some level I don't think we ever do mean it, but I think we have to achieve an understanding with our animal that it's okay.
I have to go to the store and buy food.
I'm only going to be half an hour and it's okay if you need to go.
You walk away with your heart breaking and, "Oh my God, this is terrible. I shouldn't do this. I can't go."
(03:09):
And you generally will come back and they're just the same, and occasionally you may come back and they have passed.
They're lying where they were, completely peaceful, and you blame yourself.
It's like, "Why? What's…" This is okay.
And I think it's probably because people like you and I have experienced these things more than once.
So we've learned that although our heart is hurting, that we really wanted to be with them, that we can't always get it every way.
(03:36):
I think sometimes the attachment is so strong that the animal chooses to go to protect us, as it were in some way, because they just don't have or can't gather the impetus to step out while we're with them because the bond is so strong that they're trying to stay for us.
I think we see that over and over in the world of human medicine.
(03:56):
We see humans, let's say, and animals too, holding on because somebody is flying in from another country to be with them in their last days or hours.
They wait for them to come.
Sometimes the opposite happens.
The family are going to the canteen for a well-deserved cup of tea and just letting her rest for a while, and they come back after literally five minutes and it's like, "Oh my God, she's not breathing. Oh no, this can't be. What have we done?" You've given her the grace to let go and to be able to step out without you all hovering.
(04:27):
It's hard because we tend to make the end of life for our loved ones personal to us.
I don't mean that in any negative kind of way and of course it is personal to us but it's hard for us to let go.
While we're holding on to this love and not allowing it to flow so that we can flow with them as they leave.
I'll let you continue that part.
(04:48):
Otherwise, I've got another half an hour.
Karen Wylie (04:49):
I do have more questions, maybe that'll trigger some of the additional thoughts that you haven't shared just yet.
But it is such a difficult thing to work through because our relationship and our bond is so strong with our pets and yet we need to step away for daily chores.
We need to step away to get something to eat or a cup of tea or something to drink.
(05:11):
Sometimes till 4:00 in the morning and it's, "My God, I've got to get a few hours of sleep to go on with the day, with my work, with my other obligations." And I've certainly had that happen where, as I've mentioned at various times, I'll wake up knowing they've left.
It's like I feel them cross over and I go and check and "Yep, they just left."
So I've certainly had that happen a lot of times, more so with me being able to be present because I do feel better when I'm there.
(05:37):
But at the same time, if we leave, then your conscious thoughts are a little bit physically removed if you go to a different room or leave the house.
Then they have a little more freedom to choose to go at that point.
Whatever allows them the easiest way, the most peaceful way to pass is certainly, I think, what every one of us really wants for them but we also really want to be there.
(06:03):
But to feel guilty about it, we don't want them to do that.
So what would you say to a pet parent, what should they know so that if they're carrying guilt about this kind of situation from a past loss that they can let that go?
Gail Pope (06:15):
I don't know.
I think It's hard to know what to say.
We're all different and we all hold on to these kinds of things very stubbornly, as it were.
We don't let go.
I think when we blame ourselves for something, it really is hard to give that level of forgiveness that we would give to others.
So I don't know that there's ever a real way.
(06:36):
The only way that I've been helped is by education, by to learn more and more, and learning from animals.
Particularly, from me, learning from the world of human medicine.
Actually, a story just came to mind that I don't think that I have shared before.
At least, have I shared the story of when my husband died?
I don't think I have?
Karen Wylie (06:56):
Go ahead and share.
Nothing's coming to mind that you've told us.
Gail Pope (06:59):
No, me neither, and it just jumped into my mind as part of this conversation, so I guess I will share it.
Richard was very clear.
He was in hospital.
He was very close to the end of life.
My daughter, her husband and her daughter, my granddaughter, were with him.
Various doctors, nurses coming and going.
And he was dying but not leaving.
(07:22):
Kirstie was sitting on one side of the bed, I was sitting on the other, and we were each holding his hand and talking to other people at the same time.
And then looking back and looking at the machines and wondering and looking at each other.
It's a difficult time.
Then I think one of the nurses came into the room with a couple of other people, and they wanted to have a conversation with me about his meds, that they were gradually diminishing.
(07:46):
Oh, actually, it was the hospice doctor.
So I got up and went to the bottom of the bed and was talking with them.
So Kirstie was left talking to us but staying with Richard.
We were having this conversation and all of a sudden Kirstie said, "Mom, I think he's gone." And he had.
And that's part of it.
It only came to me afterwards.
I was sitting holding his hand and so was Kirstie.
(08:09):
Both of us but I think the pull of both of us was probably— he was fighting not to let go.
But when I left and I actually had diverted my attention from the being together and let go, he went "whew," and stepped out.
So that sits under the whole thing, and having seen that with animals too.
(08:30):
Not so often, I think I've probably educated my animals enough that they darn well stay and wait for me.
But occasionally, no, they don't and they do need to go on their own.
I've learned to forgive that.
Not forgive me, but I've learned to forgive them.
Karen Wylie (08:47):
"How could you leave without me there?" The thing is, we tell them it's okay to go but then if they do, it's like, "What?
How could you have left without me?"
But they know we love them and that's really what matters most, not the exact physical presence of being there at the exact moment.
We've shared enough love.
We've often had a lifetime of love with them before this happens and they really do understand.
Gail Pope (09:09):
Absolutely.
I was also thinking that this now heralds the time where maybe we talk a little bit about the spiritual connection.
Because although they may have stepped out while you were not there, you may get a sense while you were somewhere else that, "I need to go back." Then you find that they've left.
They may actually come tell you.
(09:30):
You just get this feeling.
Maybe you're not terribly spiritual but you've got this feeling, "I need to hurry back", and then you find they've gone.
Hold on a moment.
That's okay.
They loved you enough to come find you and just let you know, "It's okay".
Not you need to really blame yourself.
"It's okay. I was with you."
And that leads into the next part of the conversation, where if you just sit quietly rather than blaming, judging, and being upset at what's happened, just sit there and be quiet, and you may feel that presence.
(10:01):
That's happened to so many people and with so many animals.
"Oh my goodness. Just let go. Let's just sit here quietly in the moment", and you may just feel a presence.
You may not.
You may see a feather float down past the window.
There are so many different types of feelings, things that happen, not generally immediately, but in the next day or two.
(10:21):
If you remain open, not begging but just allowing.
I think the more we want something, the less we're likely to get it.
But it's in those unexpected moments that something will suddenly occur.
You may be washing up, you're still feeling sad and miserable, and a big yellow butterfly will suddenly hover outside the window.
Just accept it.
(10:42):
Just take it.
It's manna for the soul.
Karen Wylie (10:44):
I think that, that brings us also to the fact that if they have just passed, there's still time to hold their paw.
Gail Pope (10:53):
Exactly.
Karen Wylie (10:54):
There's still time to talk to them because the soul generally leaves the body gradually and sometimes several days.
They're still basically around.
Part of it depends on the age.
I think in my experience, my pets who are dying naturally essentially of old age, are ready to go and do leave faster than many of the younger ones that have died.
(11:17):
But there's still time for you to talk to them.
There's still time for you to continue to say how much you love them.
They're going to hear it.
They're going to know.
Gail Pope (11:25):
When you get that strong feeling of presence, it's just so very beautiful.
So very beautiful.
Karen Wylie (11:30):
Yes, absolutely.
So many families seem to feel that once their pet is unresponsive, when they are entering a coma, that their chance to say goodbye has already passed.
But whether the pet is still breathing and alive or whether they have just passed, it's still not too late.
You can just continue to express your love for them.
Gail Pope (11:51):
Oh, Yes.
Oh, Yes
Karen Wylie (11:52):
Now, most of the training I have had about our senses and how they are gradually lost as we approach the moment of death, is that we can still feel touch and our hearing is generally the last of our senses to go.
Is that also what you've learned?
Gail Pope (12:10):
Yes, definitely.
I think hearing is the last thing to go which is why in both human and animal worlds, especially in the human world, the hospice nurse will be saying, "It's okay.
He's getting close now.
Just hold his hand and just keep talking.
He may not answer, but he can hear you.
Just keep talking."
And when my father was dying in bed and I was holding his hand or actually he was holding mine quite tight.
(12:34):
I was talking to him, there was absolutely no response whatsoever, but just every now and again, he would just give quite a firm squeeze of my hand.
But other than that, there was no sign of life at all.
But I knew he was there, and I knew he was listening.
Somehow there's a magic in transition if we can go with it as transition and be part of it.
Karen Wylie (12:55):
And not to be so afraid of it and not to be so afraid that you're doing something wrong because there's really nothing you can do that is wrong.
Gail Pope (13:03):
No, there is nothing.
Karen Wylie (13:05):
So Gail, what would you suggest a family actually say or do in those final few hours?
If they're not sure where to start, where would you suggest they start?
Gail Pope (13:13):
I think it's different for everybody.
I think if you're alone with someone, then probably you're talking about the love, the times.
You're talking about sad things that you've shared.
But I think the most beneficial are talking about the happy things that you've shared.
The memories and how much you loved something.
That brings joy to both of you, even though you can't necessarily share it in the way you normally would.
(13:38):
There's a knowing that, "Oh my goodness, that was amazing."
And if you're with family members, again, whether they're two-legged or four-legged, it's the same thing.
You share memories.
Remember when those kittens came and they were so naughty, they were climbing the curtains.
You can tell all sorts of stories and I think in the sharing of things like that, it lightens your load.
(13:59):
The memory brings joy and maybe it's fleeting.
It's, "Oh my gosh, I shouldn't be laughing now, this is terrible." But it's okay because it's a beautiful thing— sharing and caring.
Karen Wylie (14:09):
Absolutely.
Raising your vibration a little bit like that.
Remembering those wonderful things is helpful to you, it's helpful to them.
It's lovely.
Gail Pope (14:18):
It's easier with humans— with a human family because you speak the same language and you can talk about a memory, and you can all laugh and you can cry.
The emotion is easily shared.
When your family are all animals, it's a different language but you can still do it.
It's still seeing our animal doulas who have accompanied animals through the dying process.
(14:41):
We've been family.
I haven't just been watching them doing what they're doing and saying, "Oh, that's so sweet." You embrace them as family, and we talk to each other.
Maybe I can't understand everything they're saying to me.
Karen Wylie (14:52):
But you can understand a heck of a lot.
Gail Pope (14:54):
But it is togetherness and acceptance.
If you're on your own and there's nobody else with you and your animal, then you share those memories.
Karen Wylie (15:02):
Yes.
Gail Pope (15:03):
And it's just so beautiful.
It's personal, and it means the world to both of you.
Karen Wylie (15:07):
Absolutely.
While we're talking about who gets to be present in these moments and what to say, I want us to take a minute and talk about a group who we don't discuss nearly enough really, and that is our children.
Because one of the myths is that children should be kept away from dying loved ones, that's just going to be too difficult for them to be a part of.
(15:28):
And this is with both humans and pets, to not have them there for the moment the process of dying or wakes and funerals for humans that is more common than wakes or funerals we have for our pets.
But I think this is one that many parents wrestle with because they want to protect their children from something they expect will be very painful.
(15:50):
And they wonder if keeping them away is actually the best thing or the kindest thing to do.
So let me throw that back to you, Gail, what have you seen in your own experience with children and dying animals?
Gail Pope (16:02):
When I was a child, I never knew where my animals went.
They just disappeared.
And I wasn't really given a reason or it was just time for him to go.
It didn't occur to me to really delve deeper into that.
I think as children, young children, we probably don't.
Then I think if you're in a religious or a spiritual family, then little by little maybe you learn a little bit more as you're growing.
(16:25):
But for the most part, we shield our children.
I know when my great-grandmother was dying, she was upstairs in her bedroom and the door was shut, and I was told, "It's okay. Nanny's not well. Don't go in there and disturb her."
I wasn't allowed in and then she disappeared.
And again, looking back now, oh my gosh, I should have been involved because I would have been able to say goodbye to her.
(16:48):
I know that I would have understood.
I think children accept and understand death at a very young age.
We just don't understand or believe that they are capable of really accepting.
They seem to have an inherent understanding of death.
Karen Wylie (17:03):
Yes.
Gail Pope (17:04):
Particularly, when spiders and little teeny creepy crawly animals and they catch them.
They keep them, and then they die.
They accept that they're not there anymore.
They accept the dead body as it were and, "Oh, it's very sad and maybe I have to get another one."
But depending on what their reaction is as they start to grow older and how we educate them little by little in baby steps towards whatever our understanding.
(17:31):
It's difficult because we all have a different understanding of death and whether or not there's an afterlife.
That determines again how we educate our children.
My granddaughter grew up at BrightHaven and there is no way that she would ever have been shut out of new animals arriving or older or sicker animals leaving.
It was all part of a natural transition of coming in and going out.
(17:55):
Funnily enough, I came across a beautiful photograph recently of Emma when she was probably about five or six years old with— what was her name?
I can't remember.
Camille, Camilla?
Can't think quite of the name.
A pet mouse and she died.
We put her in a basket and she had all pink bedding and some pink flowers around her.
(18:15):
The picture was of Emma leaning over the basket just smiling beautifully at her.
Children can accept and understand this.
They can honor the love that they shared together.
It feels very different for them, well, as for us obviously.
Karen Wylie (18:30):
How I feel that how we handle death, dying, and loss with children about their animals is what allows them to develop an understanding of death and dying as they age and become adults.
We always talk about the shorter lifespan that our animals have.
So it's more likely that our children would experience the loss of a pet more often than they would the loss of a significant human in their life.
(18:55):
Thinking back to some of the ways it was handled when I was a child, I would be told that a dog who was actually hit by a car was that he ran away.
You're there as a seven, eight-year-old child and you're thinking, "But I loved him, he loved me. He would never leave." You know, it's like some of the stories that adults tell children can really affect how they understand relationships over time.
(19:19):
So being as honest as possible and involving them in some way, especially in an anticipatory way, would help them later on.
One of my favorite stories that you have shared is about your granddaughter, Emma and Elvis the cat.
Would you tell everybody that one?
Gail Pope (19:36):
Are you sure?
Karen Wylie (19:38):
Yes, I am sure.
I think because it does show how Emma, as a child, was being exposed to death and dying differently, and so she responded differently.
Gail Pope (19:48):
Yes.
Again, he died at home.
I wasn't present for this experience.
They didn't live with us at this time.
Anyway, he died in the evening, at, at nighttime, and the following morning Kirstie had planned to bring him to BrightHaven and set him up in state at the sanctuary.
And with the normal family rush, she got herself ready.
(20:10):
She's shouting for Emma to be ready.
Got to go, say goodbye to Elvis.
And she got in the car, and she got the engine started, and then she's honking the horn, "Come on, we're going to be late." And Emma arrives.
cuddling a dead body.
And Kirstie said, "What are you doing? I'm taking him to Catnan’s.
You know I'm taking him there later."
And Emma said, "Mom, he looks just so beautiful. I'm taking him to school with me to show my teachers and my friends. I think they will love him." That was quite a shock that day but what a beautiful acceptance.
(20:40):
Just beautiful, just beautiful.
Karen Wylie (20:42):
It is.
It just shows how possible it is for a child to incorporate death and dying in day to day as part of wanting to share with other people.
I just love that story.
Gail Pope (20:54):
I think things like that are part of where my understanding grew of the term the "body house".
The house that we live in is our body, and then when that body is no longer able to sustain the life that we're used to, we step out of that body.
That story, it really elucidates it for me.
He wasn't in his body anymore but his body was just so beautiful.
(21:16):
Look at how lovely he looks.
He's groomed and he looks absolutely beautiful.
And yet she understood, since she'd experienced it more than several times.
He was no longer part of that body, but she wanted to honor him by taking him to show her friends and teachers.
And it's so easy to accept death as transition at such a young age.
(21:38):
You grow up with a different outlook on life really, I think.
Karen Wylie (21:42):
Yes, yes.
I'm sure that's got to be true.
Sure it has to be true.
Thank you for sharing that because I do love that story.
I do love it.
Gail Pope (21:49):
That's so funny, isn't it?
Karen Wylie (21:50):
Yes.
All right, one more myth before we close.
It's a pretty short one but it's the myth that men don't cry.
Gail Pope (21:57):
Oh.
Karen Wylie (21:57):
Anything you want to say to that one?
Gail Pope (21:59):
I thought we started with that at the beginning of a previous podcast conversation.
But absolutely, it's one of my favorites, it really is.
Particularly because, not as often as with ladies, but I do have gentlemen approach me to do a consultation for a beloved animal.
You can see they're struggling with their emotions.
(22:19):
And I've learned now to tell them it's okay to cry.
Crying produces tears, it produces endorphins in the brain, hormones that we call them the "feel-good" hormones, that releases tension and it's not babyish to cry.
When our children are growing up, as a culture, "Boys don't cry, darling. It's men don't cry."
(22:40):
Then as we get older, it flows into society.
You'll see a sad event with men and women all present, and you'll see the women crying freely.
You'll see some men crying, but you'll see most of them staunchly just looking so moved.
But they don't cry to let it go.
Karen Wylie (22:56):
I think one of the things we talked about in recent weeks was the fact that there's a lot of single men, a lot of divorced men who are the primary caregivers of their pets.
More so than ever before, and it's very important that they cry and they grieve because they loved very deeply.
Gail Pope (23:15):
Yes and the other important part is to cry with your animal when they're approaching end of life rather than go and hide yourself away, and that applies to men and women.
Karen Wylie (23:25):
True.
Gail Pope (23:25):
And children.
If you're sad for them, share that with them.
Karen Wylie (23:29):
Yes.
Gail Pope (23:29):
They know you're crying.
They do.
They speak our language, and they're not stupid.
They totally understand our distress, and it's about them.
if we hide ourselves away, they feel helpless.
They're shut away in a different place.
Whereas if we share, then they can express their part in that emotion, too.
Karen Wylie (23:45):
Absolutely.
With everything that we've covered today with terms of our myths related to being present at the time of death, being able to say goodbye, the role of children, what's the one thread that ties it all together for you with these myths?
Gail Pope (24:00):
It's always love, isn't it?
Love joins us all in every single thing we do in our lives.
Because if we, again, we take baby steps through life and we express love for everybody and everything as much as we can.
I guess there are some we can't express love for however much we try, like a huge black spider on the wall.
(24:20):
You have to sometimes steel yourself.
I think I've gradually talked myself through that fear now.
I still have an inherent *groan* but then I find if I talk to them then I relax and let go, you can feel it.
So yes, love is the most important thing.
Karen Wylie (24:35):
Yes, absolutely.
Let me just do a quick recap here.
We covered four myths about being present at the end of our pets' lives.
That dying alone means you failed your pet, nope.
The belief that it's too late to say goodbye once they're unresponsive or in a coma or even right after they've died— it's never too late.
(24:56):
That children should be shielded from the dying loved ones in their life, and we're suggesting to you that they should actually be involved from the very beginning and allowed to grieve in an anticipatory way and all the way through.
And certainly, men are allowed to cry through it, too.
Every one of those beliefs comes from love, as we're talking about it, but every one of those myths deserves to be set down.
(25:20):
I think as we look at those last myths, it really shows us we don't have to be perfect to love well or to grieve well.
You don't have to be in the room for the exact right minute, say the exact right words.
Your pet already knows how loved they are and everything that you have done to get them that far.
(25:40):
Gail, as you said, they know how loved they are and you did your best and you did it with love, and that is enough.
We'll see you next week as we'll keep walking this journey together.
Bye-bye now.
Gail Pope (25:51):
Thank you.
Goodbye.
Thank you for joining us on Peace of Mind for Pet Parents.
We hope today's episode has offered you support and insight as you care for your aging or ill pets.
Remember, it's not just about the end.
It's about living well at every stage of life.
To continue your journey with us, explore more resources at BrightHaven Caregiver Academy's website— BrightPathForPets.com, where you'll find guides, assessments, and a caring community of pet parents like you.
(26:28):
Until next time, may you and your pets find comfort, connection, and peace in every moment.
Take care.
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