April 7, 2026 • 31 mins
🎬In this episode of the Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) dive deep into the complex inner world of antisocial personality disorder, challenging the traditional DSM view and exploring psychoanalytic theory to uncover the internal processes behind antisocial behaviors. This episode is essential for clinicians, students, and anyone interested in understanding the motivations and defenses of antisocial individuals. ⚠️Note: this podcast does not constitute a professional relationship. If you're in need of professional help, please seek out appropriate resources in your area. ⚠️
Chapters 00:00 Intro & Limitations of Antisocial in DSM 02:48 Causes of Antisocial Personality 03:30 Genetic Studies 05:21 Environmental Studies 07:34 Attachment & Antisocial Personality 12:23 Inside the Antisocial’s Psyche: 12:29 Depression & Emptiness 14:55 Shame & Self-Importance 17:09 Defense Mechanisms in the Antisocial 17:42 Omnipotent Control 20:54 Projective Identification 21:49 Dissociation 23:26 Acting Out 26:34 Biological & Neuropsychological Processes of Antisocials 28:37 Perverse & Distorted Sexuality in Antisocials 30:07 Summary & Conclusion
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,
where we discuss all thingspersonality and
clinical practice. I'm yourhost, Doc Bok,
and I'm here with my co-host,Doc Fish. We
are both licensed clinicalpsychologists and
private practice. And todaywe are continuing
our series on antisocial personality
disorder. And we really don'tlove the DSM description
(00:23):
of antisocial. So we'repulling from other
psychological theories like psychodynamic
and putting antisocial on the proverbial
therapy couch. In this episode,we give our
analysis of what's going on in the psyche ofan antisocial. And this is going to be
an interesting one. So let's dive in.
Okay, well, let's start with the DSM. So
(00:43):
excluding the lack of remorsecriteria in the DSM-5
TR, all the other criteriashowcase some kind
of observable behavioral pieceof the antisocial
personality. And I mightactually argue that
we don't truly know abouta lack of remorse
in an antisocial because they're probably notgoing to let you inside the brain. So
(01:05):
you don't trust you. So weobserve the lack
of remorse externally. Butanyway, that means
that the DSM missed the internalprocess of
the antisocial here. Yep. Butthen cycle analytic
literature comes in for the win.
Uh-huh, it does. So there is substantial
(01:26):
criticism about the DSM antisocial,not only with us,
but also with personalitygurus like Millon,
Akhtar and Kernberg. Theytoo openly criticize
the DSM for focusing way toomuch on criminal
behavior and less so what'sinside the psyche.
So Akhtar says about theDSM criteria, "Such
(01:48):
emphasis tends to delineatecriminal individuals
better than antisocial onessince most antisocial
individuals successfully avoidcriminal involvements.
They lead apparently ordinarylives marked by
subtly parasitic, [like a parasite]and exploitative
behavior."
Oh man, that is fascinating.So all the antisocials
(02:11):
who haven't been like caughtin their antisocial-ness
but yeah, we have a DSM descriptionthat totally
ignores the internal workingsof a personality.
Right. Yeah. Doesn't that sound familiar?
Uh-huh. It was somethingthat we brought up
and critiques with schizoid, right?
Which is always why it'shelpful to look at
multiple perspectives. And themost comprehensive
(02:34):
perspective on the topic ofthe internal parts
of antisocial is found in psychoanalytictheory,
which starts with birth inearly childhood.
Yeah. Surprise. Yeah. Sowith that, we need
to jump to what causes antisocialpersonality
to develop. Okay. So I'll kickus off by talking
(02:54):
about a really interestingstudy by Glueck
& Glueck in 1956. Theyfound through their
follow-up studies that antisocial
personality starts early and continuesinto adulthood.
Yes. So it is thought that antisocialtemperaments
in infancy may be more aggressive,but this is a
chicken and egg question because their
(03:15):
environments quickly turn genes onand off. So then it's like,
is it nature or nurture?I personally think
it's both, but Doc Bok,what did you find
about genetics and antisocial?Yeah. Well,
there wasn't a whole lot of researchon genetics as
there was environment, butwe also have to
remember that this researchis tricky because
(03:37):
we're often studying antisocialbehaviors versus
the personality. But alas, therewere a couple of
prominent studies that I foundinteresting. So
Robins in 1966 found thathaving a sociopathic
or alcoholic father contributedto antisocial.
Okay. But couldn't that alsobe environmental?
Technically. Yeah. And thisis where genetic
(03:58):
studies are tricky, liketo your chicken and
egg point, right? But what'sinteresting is that
their research found that therewas a correlation
with sociopathy and alcoholism,even if the
father wasn't present, whichimplies a potential
genetic predisposition to antisocial from
the paternal side. Okay. Okay.So that could be
(04:21):
genetics then or an absent father. Oh,
touche. Right. Like an absentfather, either due to
substance or physical distance.Yeah. Yeah.
So is it genetics or is itenvironment? Right?
So then we look at twin studies,which give us
another peek at things. Sothere was a study or
(04:43):
multiple studies that seem tofind a genetic link
in antisocial personality. Okay.But I can't help
but play devil's advocate here.Why is adoption
involved? So I'm thinking likeparental substance
abuse, abuse in general, neglect,trauma, like
could adoption be an environmentalfactor in this
(05:04):
to begin with? Yes. You'reasking the right
questions here. Yeah. It'sreally hard to say
without finding a specificgenetic marker or
gene because there's no perfectway to control
for environment in these studies.Yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. So let's jump to theenvironmental stuff.
Overall, childhood environmentsof antisocials
(05:27):
throughout the literatureinclude descriptions
like chaotic, insecure, unstable,
inconsistent, unloving, unprotective,neglectful, abusive,
traumatic, with possible overindulgenceof power
or dominance. And then alsothere's like either
harsh or no discipline, corruption, et
(05:49):
cetera. Interesting. So Akhtaractually said that as
children, "They suffered profoundinjustices.
They were traumatically betrayed."So they experienced
traumas of injustice, whichis just tragic when
you think about it, right? Butit also makes sense
why the justice system andthe law means very
(06:10):
little to them. Like that'stheir origin trauma,
the lack of law or justicein the home. Oh,
absolutely. I actually thinkI have much more
to say on this, but I'm goingto wait. Okay.
All right. Save the gold.Save the gold. Okay.
So research also tells usthat antisocial also
come from homes with highlynarcissistic parents.
(06:30):
This leads to lots of anger, especially
towards mom, which then comesout toward others.
Right? Specifically, there's often maternalneglect, indifference, alcoholism,
emotional and psychologicaldeprivation and
neglect. And McWilliams notedthat mom could also
be weak, depressed, and or masochistic,
(06:53):
which then can be paired withthat sociopathic or
alcoholic father that youmentioned before, or
even an absent father or a fatherwho's explosive,
sadistic, inconsistent.Yeah. So multiple
researchers have pointed outthe theme of being
unloved as children, whichmeans there's a
(07:15):
breakdown in their capacityto love others
and themselves, even goingso far as having
hatred towards others. Butbecause of that lack
of parental love, it can leadto a very primitive
type of narcissism, which we'lltalk about later
in defense mechanisms. Butthen that makes
me think we need to talkabout attachment.
(07:36):
Yes. So some actually arguethat antisocial is
a disorder of attachment. McWilliamsnotes that
there's a failure of attachment in
internalization of good objects. Sobasically they didn't attach
psychologically to or identify with their
parents or caregivers. So theydidn't take love in,
and then they didn't love others.But she notes
(07:59):
that they can identify withan archetypal object.
So like finding a father figurethat maybe society
deems powerful. This could bea superhero. It could
just be like whatever the constructof masculinity
looks like, or pathologically,it could be like a
serial killer. Oh, that isreal interesting.
(08:21):
Yeah. A lot of the literaturetalks about antisocials
having an unrealistic fantasyor hero version of
dad in their mind, maybe becauseit's easier than
accepting that dad is absentor not protective,
or maybe because dad went backand forth between
being the protector and thepersecutor, right?
But regardless in the psyche,the fantasized image
(08:45):
of father is a big pieceof their internal
workings. So it doesn't haveto be a real person.
To your point, it could bea superhero or any
representation of that masculinepower. Right.
Because power is importantto them. Yeah. All
that negative stuff in childhoodmeans that they
likely felt helpless and withoutpower, like not
(09:07):
even having confidence in theirown power or in
the power of others to helpor protect them.
So then it makes sense thatthey would now see
confirmation of their own omnipotence orpower. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. So
picture a child that is neglected,traumatized,
abused, et cetera, and inherentlyhelpless due
(09:28):
to age. Yeah. But teachersdon't save them from
their setting. Maybe the copscome a couple of
times, but they don't save themfrom their abuse.
Child protective services wasinvolved maybe a few
times, but nothing happened.Yeah. So remember how
we talked about the injusticein childhood? Yeah.
The systems and the law failedthem. And the
(09:48):
child was essentially leftto save themselves,
to not rely on or to trustothers, to reject
helplessness and weakness.They had to embody
the power that they need.Yeah. They might
learn like emotions are weak,vulnerability is weak.
None of that is tolerable.And then you have
their family of origin whoprobably didn't help
(10:10):
them learn emotions or how toexpress themselves.
Yeah. Oftentimes like wordswere probably used to
control others, which meansthen manipulation
is learned and then action islearned, right? Not
emotions, not caring for others.They need to act.
They need to have personal powerto save the self,
to invest in the self, tobe self-focused. And
(10:31):
I'm also going to propose thatthat power involves
consuming. So like sometimes consuming
materials, the world, others. Ooh,that is an excellent
example. Yeah. You know whatconsuming reminds me
of? Freud actually boiled downall criminal acts
into two categories. So aversion of incest or
(10:54):
parricide. Basically what thatmeans is either
consuming the parent or killingthe parent.
So crimes of killing othersor violating their
sexual rights. So like maybe the oedipal
complex. Maybe. So he believedthat any other crime was
disguised as or possibly even a more
(11:16):
regressed form of these things.Serial crimes in these
areas serve as a repetition compulsion or
mastering a trauma from earliestattachment.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. So thisis speaking to the
antisocial behavior that canarise from these
early attachment traumas. McWilliams actually
noted that the objects of attachmentcan be both
(11:39):
a source of terror and rage, which are
contradictory and then at leastcontradictory
behaviors. And she providedthe example of like
a baby who smiles and bitesmom. So like inviting
that connection, but thenalso like destroying
or hurting at the same time.Right. This makes so
much sense. Yeah. So this also speaks to
(12:01):
behavior that stems from an inconsistentupbringing and
disorganized attachment as aresult, like bite mom
or hug mom. Right. Both. Yeah.Anyway, so we have
genetics and the environmentbeing just right
to make the antisocial personality,but what's
actually going on underneathall of that? Yeah.
(12:23):
So what's in the psyche? SoReid in 1985 found
that inside the antisocial psyche was
depression and emptiness, makingthem very susceptible to
severe depression, sometimeseven psychotic
depression and even suicide.So especially
during middle age. And Ifind this timeline
(12:45):
particularly interesting becausewe also know
that antisocial behavior andimpulsivity ages out
around middle adulthood. Andit actually makes me
wonder if as the body slowsdown with age, is
the psyche forced to face itsdemons and not run
from them? Okay. So McWilliamsalso notes that
(13:05):
antisocial can burn out inmiddle age and can
become like surprisingly uprightcitizens. So maybe
hormones, like maybe loss ofpower that comes with
middle age. And then basicallylike we have to
face death and the loss of physicalstrength. Now,
McWilliams also proposed thatthis might be the
reason why there aren't as manyfemale antisocials.
(13:27):
So females aren't necessarilyas physically
strong, and then they have todeal with menstruation,
face pregnancy challenges,have increased risk
of abuse, and thus femaleshave to face their own
weakness earlier. Isn't thatinteresting? Yeah.
So there's lots of interestinggender dynamics
that play with the antisocials.Also, antisocial
(13:48):
often lack an internal valuesystem, especially
with more severe presentations.So like, what do
they stand for? Anything? Likeare there goals or
intrinsic motivations? Insidethere's defective
empathy and guilt. So if youdon't have values to
stand on, how can you empathizewith another or
(14:08):
take their perspective toknow when they hurt?
How can you experience guiltif your compass of
right or wrong is misguided?The internal mapping
system is off, so relationshipsare going to
suffer. Sure. But like alsohow can you even
develop a sense of right andwrong when you're
so focused on surviving thetraumatic environment
(14:31):
that you were just spawned into?Fair. Yeah. I do
have deep empathy for antisocialswho don't care.
They don't want my empathy, butI do care. Yeah.
However, it does not equateto overlooking their
harm. Oh, exactly. Yeah. Wecan hold empathy for
how this personality developsand also still make
(14:51):
boundaries and hold them accountablefor their
actions. So also I'm thinkingthat antisocials
can have two sides to them,right? So especially
as they have an unstable senseof who they are.
So they experience self-doubt and areconfused about their self-identity,
actually leading to feelings of
inferiority. But they're so notaware of this at all,
(15:15):
like literal denial. Right. Oh yeah. Theywould never let on at all. Yeah. And
Kernberg actually believed antisocials'self-concept
vacillates between shamefuland exalted images of
the self, which makes theminauthentic. Right?
So if you look closely, youcan see contradictory
behaviors stem from this, likemaybe gluttony or
(15:38):
pleasure seeking versus theself-imposed poverty
that sometimes they go through because of
lack of goals. Okay. Okay.And keep listening,
because we're soon going toget into what they
do with that shame becausethey do not own it.
Oh snap. Yes. So this meansthat their obsession
with power and omnipotencethat we talked about
(16:00):
can also be counteracted with thisinfantile helplessness.
Yes. So McWilliams notes thatjust because there's
an inability to love doesn'tmean that they don't
know there's something outthere that they're
lacking. Yeah. Like somethingthat others are
enjoying, which she saysleads to something
called primitive envy, whichis the wish to destroy
(16:22):
that which one most desires.Oh. So remember
like we want mom, so we smileand then we bite her.
So they can't actually articulatethis usually,
but their behaviors demonstrateit. So they deny,
devalue and depreciate allthe tender things in
life. For example, Ted Bundykilled or destroyed
young women that looked like his mother,
(16:44):
noting he needed to own them.Whoa. Oh my goodness.
So they destroy the verything in which they
desire, especially tenderthings like love.
So perhaps Ted Bundy actuallydesired mama's love
in his killing of other womenthat looked like her.
You got it. Like the psyche is dark and
fascinating. Oh, definitely. Yeah.Wow. But let's move on to
(17:09):
other defenses that are happeninginside the
psyche, leading to this antisocialbehavior.
All right. So all personalitieshave ways to
defend themselves against anxietiesand difficulties
adapting to their world.All personalities
do, right? But for the antisocial,McWilliams
highlights four main defenses.So omnipotent
(17:32):
control, projective identification,dissociation,
and acting out. So let's lookcloser at these
and also define what they are.Okay. So omnipotent
control is the need to exertand confirm one's
power. So there's like an unconsciousbelief that
the self is essentially thebasis of all that
happens. Like their wish anddesires and action
(17:55):
determines an outcome, whichis technically an
extension of the infantile orprimary narcissism.
Yeah. Okay. This goes backto the first six
months of infancy whereI personally think
antisocials get stuck. There is no
understanding that others are separatefrom themselves.
So in infancy, this looks like I'm hungryand therefore I magically get milk.
(18:18):
And then there's no recognitionthat like the
other or mom has any control.Yeah. Now in adulthood,
this could look like somethingbenign. Like I can
be anything that I want to be,or maybe winning a
gamble that you felt was a winner or in a
relationship I've seen this,it could look
like inconsideration. It's like, I'm not
(18:39):
cold, so you must not be cold.Pathologically,
this could be getting oneover on somebody
through conscious manipulation.Like it's found in a lot
of areas where there's powerdynamics, like
politics, business, religioushierarchies,
the military, but omnipotentcontrol defends
(19:00):
against weakness and shame.Absolutely. Yeah.
This actually reminds me of Abraham's
research from 1925 where hetalked about the early
psychological undernourishmentof antisocials
in childhood. So you can seehow they're stuck in
that regressed place becausethey didn't receive
(19:20):
their needs early on. Again,so my hypothesis is
that their deepest wounds andfixation occurred
in the first six months ofinfancy with feeding
and primary narcissism. Not that they're
acting like babies, right? Butthat is where their
deepest wound and hurt stems from. Yeah.
(19:41):
Yeah. And they can. Not allof them do, but
all personalities can tantrum.Yeah, we can all
tantrum. Anyway, there's alsoa cognitive breakdown
here and we can see a peekat some magical
thinking. So like it feltlike a winning game,
therefore it must be, orI can be anything I
want despite limitations. Likethat very primitive
(20:04):
narcissism is evident in theseantisocial types.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. SoBursten also believed
that this sense of omnipotent stemmed fromchildhood trauma where there's safety in
relationships only when they'rein control and
can manipulate the other. Soit also denies any
dependency needs on the otherand it splits
(20:27):
off any feelings of inferiorityonto the other,
right? So then it also kindof serves as a type
of anxiety reliever becausethe antisocial knows
the outcome if they manipulateit and are in
charge. Ooh, an anxiety reliever.That's an
interesting way to look atit, but like also
deep down, they're not usuallysuper aware of this,
(20:48):
if at all. Yeah, self-awareness is key.Anyway, the next defense mechanism is
projective identification.So that is putting
unacceptable characteristicson the other person,
which is the projection part,and then acting in
a way that elicits the otherto identify with it.
Yeah. So for example, likeweakness is not
(21:09):
acceptable. So the otherperson's weak and
then I'm going to act in away that makes the
other person feel weak andidentify as weak.
According to McWilliams, inability or avoidanceof expressing emotions verbally
means that the only way toget other people to
understand what they're feelingis to evoke that
feeling in them. This is sodeep. Yeah. So let me
(21:31):
give some examples of this.Like they don't trust
you and they elicit mistrustfrom you. So they're
angry, right? And now they'relashing out so you
feel angry too, or they can't feel
empathetic and now you can'tfind empathy for them.
Exactly. All right. So the third defense
mechanism is dissociation. Nowthis defense is actually
(21:53):
really hard to figure out becauseantisocials
lie. Yeah. But it is a possibilitybecause abuse
and dissociation go togetherand antisocials
have experienced abuse. McWilliams notes that
dissociation and an antisocial can range
anywhere from just simplyminimizing personal
responsibility and harm tocomplete amnesia for
(22:15):
a violent crime. Yeah. I thinkthis part is so
interesting and I've heardof cases of like
feigned amnesia, fakingit basically like,
Oh, I blacked out. Don't blame me for the
crime. Right. But this dissociationor splitting off
from the self, like goingsomewhere else in
the body and mind, like itcan be very real
(22:36):
in antisocials. And in somecases, the individual
may be operating out of thisprimitive place of
trauma. Like they don't evenrealize it, but
they're maybe trying to masterthat early trauma.
And some theorists even saythat antisocial
behavior is actually a cryfor help. Like save
me from this trauma. Catchme. Oh boy. Okay.
(22:58):
So you're so right. And theyare never going to
admit to crying out for help.My thought on
this is that if an actionis done in anger,
there may be an effect on memory because
anger does decrease activityin the hippocampus,
but they're very capable ofsimply just doing a
(23:18):
harmful action outside ofanger. So the debate
on this will probably continueforever. Let's
go to the last defense mechanism,acting out
antisocial act when they areupset or elevated,
they just act. And so theycan have difficulty
controlling their impulses. Yeah. And Doc
Fish, you and I actually havea hypothesis that
(23:40):
antisocial are probably body types on theEnneagram, most likely type eights.
I kind of think so. Yeah.So it does take more
to get them to the thresholdof feeling. So for
example, they have a decreasedstartle response.
So if I go and I say boo toan avoidant, they're
(24:01):
going to startle. If I say boo to an
antisocial, they're going to stareat me unforgivingly
until I feel uncomfortable.Yes. So I could say
a cringy, dark, morbid, awfulword, and then say
the word table and the reactionwould be the
same, right? Like the darknesshas no effect on them.
It's just a normal day. And you know what'sinteresting is that in that way,
(24:24):
there's actually an overlap with schizoidand antisocial, no reaction.
I like that. Oh, okay. I haveto stay on track
though. There's an interestingquestion in this
dynamic. Do antisocials lackanxiety or is the
anxiety hidden and invisible?Because after all,
they would never admit tosuch weakness as
(24:46):
anxiety. And if they didexperience anxiety,
they would probably be able to react so
fast that no one would seeit anyway.
#childhoodtrauma. They actquick. Sure. Yeah.
This goes back to what wesaid earlier about
manipulation in relationships.Like it's a
super stealthy way to concealanxiety because no one
(25:07):
would ever guess that they'rebeing manipulated
out of anxiety or weakness,right? Like I think
the anxiety is there, justmaybe well cloaked
and projected outward on theother. Sure. And I'm
going to say anxiety maybe experienced and
denied, like both. I think maybereally severe, unhealthy
antisocial are so stuck intheir sympathetic
(25:30):
nervous system or like inthat fight stance
and protective denial thatthey might truly
be disconnected from anxiety.Okay. Okay. So an
example, like if you're ina boxing ring, you're
not going to startle necessarilyif someone comes
at you because it's expectedand maybe that's
how antisocials feel like they'realways ready.
(25:52):
So there's like less anxietyabout things.
I think so. However, healthierantisocial do
report some anxiety and I'veactually seen this.
Now, it's a deep feeling ofdread, like a feeling
of pending doom. Like it's not expressed
like other personalities mayexpress anxiety.
(26:13):
So it's either hidden or it comes out as irritability,anger, and rage. Yeah. It's
like an elevated sympatheticnervous system
fight response, but lackingthe actual danger.
Yeah. Which then this leadsto the question of
like, what is actually happeningin the body?
Right? Yes. So we do knowthat antisocials have
(26:36):
low serotonin levels and lowreactivity in the
autonomic nervous system,which is the nervous
system that controls all theinvoluntary stuff
we do like breathing andheart rate. So the
sympathetic and parasympatheticnervous system
make up that autonomic nervoussystem. Abuse
triggers the sympathetic nervoussystem. Now,
all of this is importantbecause antisocial
(26:58):
have the high sensation seekingand high threshold
for pleasurable excitement. So like
skydiving. Yeah. This actuallyreminds me of sensation
seeking and having almost anaddiction to novel
experiences. And it also makesme think of how
antisocial at the disorderlevel is highly
correlated with substanceabuse. Like I think
(27:20):
there's a dopamine seekinghere. Sure. I mean,
they don't do well regulatingtheir emotions.
Sometimes they can go back andforth between like
intense anger or rage and likemanic acceleration.
I've seen similar things.Yeah. It actually
makes me wonder if there's anoverlap with bipolar.
(27:41):
Like we've already talked about the deep
depression inside, but like the thrillseeking and the highs
maybe is part of like themood-personality
dynamic. Sure. Maybe. I thinkI view it as a
reaction to power. Like if I can handle
skydiving or maybe rock climbingwithout gear, etc.
(28:03):
I conquer death. Then oneother thing to say
here is that their act firstsensation seeking and
difficulty regulating emotionscan combine to
create a pattern of failing tolearn from experience.
And this explains the repeatedfill in the
blank lying, stealing, lashingout at others, etc.
Exactly. Yeah. And it feedsthe underlying
(28:25):
distortion of omnipotence,right? I can conquer
anything like laws of gravity.Don't apply to
me. Watch! Yeah. So the lastthing I'll say here is
that antisocial often havealso a distorted
or perverse sexuality, likeespecially at the
disorder level antisocials.So what this means is
(28:45):
that anything is possible forsexual gratification,
especially deviant thingsthat most people
wouldn't equate with sex, like urinating,
defecating, underage partners,that type of
stuff, you know? Ooh. Okay. Sofinding pleasure in all
the things, especially deviantthings, right? So
with primary narcissism, right?In the first six
(29:07):
months of life, the infant finds pleasure throughevery sensory experience: eating,
kicking, seeing, hearing,pooping. Like you've
all seen the baby smile afterletting out a poop.
Totally. Yeah. It's a self-orientedform of
pleasure that can be deviantin adult sexuality.
And then pairing this withtheir difficulty
(29:28):
understanding that others areseparate from them,
I do think it can often involve sexualpower dynamics and domination.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Solet's go back to
the trauma and the early experienceof pleasure,
right? So there was possiblystarvation of basic
care and basic pleasure. Sothen they get stuck
(29:50):
in this place of developmentand then seek out
pleasure in areas that mostadults have moved
past from, right? Or adultsthat are healthy and
adjusted see as like taboo orillegal or whatever.
Yeah. Yeah. And all in the search oftheir own self-interest and power.
All right. So coming backaround and putting
all of this together, we againdon't like the
(30:11):
DSM description of antisocial personality
disorder because it onlycaptures behaviors
and not the personality underneath.Yeah. The
PDM gives us a peek into theantisocials' makeup,
starting with genetics andadverse childhood
environments. Society throwsthem in the deep
end and doesn't save them.So they learn how
(30:33):
to swim more powerfully thanthe rest of us,
playing by a different setof rules. Their
mind, body, and emotions arefocused on their own
self-interest originally forsurvival, but it
can turn pathological. Yeah.And that pathological
outcome can look quite differentif it's mixed
with flavors of other personalities.So stay tuned.
(30:54):
Oh, indeed. Yes. We stillhave so much more to
say in this series, includingtalking about subtypes
and how it's different frompsychopathy and
narcissism and all the things.So make sure you
like and subscribe so youdon't miss it. And
if you're a psychology nerd,we also have blogs,
visuals, and references thatcoincide with each
episode at www.personalitycouch.com.And if you're
(31:18):
a provider looking to consultabout a case or
you're in need of psychodynamictherapy or a deep
dive psychological evaluation,our private practice
Quest Psych can help with that.I'll provide a link
in the show notes. Be well, be kind, and
we'll see you next time on thePersonality Couch.
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,
where we discuss all thingspersonality and
clinical practice. I'm yourhost, Doc Bok,
and I'm here with my co-host,Doc Fish. We
are both licensed clinicalpsychologists and
private practice. And todaywe are continuing
our series on antisocial personality
disorder. And we really don'tlove the DSM description
(00:23):
of antisocial. So we'repulling from other
psychological theories like psychodynamic
and putting antisocial on the proverbial
therapy couch. In this episode,we give our
analysis of what's going on in the psyche ofan antisocial. And this is going to be
an interesting one. So let's dive in.
Okay, well, let's start with the DSM. So
(00:43):
excluding the lack of remorsecriteria in the DSM-5
TR, all the other criteriashowcase some kind
of observable behavioral pieceof the antisocial
personality. And I mightactually argue that
we don't truly know abouta lack of remorse
in an antisocial because they're probably notgoing to let you inside the brain. So
(01:05):
you don't trust you. So weobserve the lack
of remorse externally. Butanyway, that means
that the DSM missed the internalprocess of
the antisocial here. Yep. Butthen cycle analytic
literature comes in for the win.
Uh-huh, it does. So there is substantial
(01:26):
criticism about the DSM antisocial,not only with us,
but also with personalitygurus like Millon,
Akhtar and Kernberg. Theytoo openly criticize
the DSM for focusing way toomuch on criminal
behavior and less so what'sinside the psyche.
So Akhtar says about theDSM criteria, "Such
(01:48):
emphasis tends to delineatecriminal individuals
better than antisocial onessince most antisocial
individuals successfully avoidcriminal involvements.
They lead apparently ordinarylives marked by
subtly parasitic, [like a parasite]and exploitative
behavior."
Oh man, that is fascinating.So all the antisocials
(02:11):
who haven't been like caughtin their antisocial-ness
but yeah, we have a DSM descriptionthat totally
ignores the internal workingsof a personality.
Right. Yeah. Doesn't that sound familiar?
Uh-huh. It was somethingthat we brought up
and critiques with schizoid, right?
Which is always why it'shelpful to look at
multiple perspectives. And themost comprehensive
(02:34):
perspective on the topic ofthe internal parts
of antisocial is found in psychoanalytictheory,
which starts with birth inearly childhood.
Yeah. Surprise. Yeah. Sowith that, we need
to jump to what causes antisocialpersonality
to develop. Okay. So I'll kickus off by talking
(02:54):
about a really interestingstudy by Glueck
& Glueck in 1956. Theyfound through their
follow-up studies that antisocial
personality starts early and continuesinto adulthood.
Yes. So it is thought that antisocialtemperaments
in infancy may be more aggressive,but this is a
chicken and egg question because their
(03:15):
environments quickly turn genes onand off. So then it's like,
is it nature or nurture?I personally think
it's both, but Doc Bok,what did you find
about genetics and antisocial?Yeah. Well,
there wasn't a whole lot of researchon genetics as
there was environment, butwe also have to
remember that this researchis tricky because
(03:37):
we're often studying antisocialbehaviors versus
the personality. But alas, therewere a couple of
prominent studies that I foundinteresting. So
Robins in 1966 found thathaving a sociopathic
or alcoholic father contributedto antisocial.
Okay. But couldn't that alsobe environmental?
Technically. Yeah. And thisis where genetic
(03:58):
studies are tricky, liketo your chicken and
egg point, right? But what'sinteresting is that
their research found that therewas a correlation
with sociopathy and alcoholism,even if the
father wasn't present, whichimplies a potential
genetic predisposition to antisocial from
the paternal side. Okay. Okay.So that could be
(04:21):
genetics then or an absent father. Oh,
touche. Right. Like an absentfather, either due to
substance or physical distance.Yeah. Yeah.
So is it genetics or is itenvironment? Right?
So then we look at twin studies,which give us
another peek at things. Sothere was a study or
(04:43):
multiple studies that seem tofind a genetic link
in antisocial personality. Okay.But I can't help
but play devil's advocate here.Why is adoption
involved? So I'm thinking likeparental substance
abuse, abuse in general, neglect,trauma, like
could adoption be an environmentalfactor in this
(05:04):
to begin with? Yes. You'reasking the right
questions here. Yeah. It'sreally hard to say
without finding a specificgenetic marker or
gene because there's no perfectway to control
for environment in these studies.Yeah. Exactly.
Exactly. So let's jump to theenvironmental stuff.
Overall, childhood environmentsof antisocials
(05:27):
throughout the literatureinclude descriptions
like chaotic, insecure, unstable,
inconsistent, unloving, unprotective,neglectful, abusive,
traumatic, with possible overindulgenceof power
or dominance. And then alsothere's like either
harsh or no discipline, corruption, et
(05:49):
cetera. Interesting. So Akhtaractually said that as
children, "They suffered profoundinjustices.
They were traumatically betrayed."So they experienced
traumas of injustice, whichis just tragic when
you think about it, right? Butit also makes sense
why the justice system andthe law means very
(06:10):
little to them. Like that'stheir origin trauma,
the lack of law or justicein the home. Oh,
absolutely. I actually thinkI have much more
to say on this, but I'm goingto wait. Okay.
All right. Save the gold.Save the gold. Okay.
So research also tells usthat antisocial also
come from homes with highlynarcissistic parents.
(06:30):
This leads to lots of anger, especially
towards mom, which then comesout toward others.
Right? Specifically, there's often maternalneglect, indifference, alcoholism,
emotional and psychologicaldeprivation and
neglect. And McWilliams notedthat mom could also
be weak, depressed, and or masochistic,
(06:53):
which then can be paired withthat sociopathic or
alcoholic father that youmentioned before, or
even an absent father or a fatherwho's explosive,
sadistic, inconsistent.Yeah. So multiple
researchers have pointed outthe theme of being
unloved as children, whichmeans there's a
(07:15):
breakdown in their capacityto love others
and themselves, even goingso far as having
hatred towards others. Butbecause of that lack
of parental love, it can leadto a very primitive
type of narcissism, which we'lltalk about later
in defense mechanisms. Butthen that makes
me think we need to talkabout attachment.
(07:36):
Yes. So some actually arguethat antisocial is
a disorder of attachment. McWilliamsnotes that
there's a failure of attachment in
internalization of good objects. Sobasically they didn't attach
psychologically to or identify with their
parents or caregivers. So theydidn't take love in,
and then they didn't love others.But she notes
(07:59):
that they can identify withan archetypal object.
So like finding a father figurethat maybe society
deems powerful. This could bea superhero. It could
just be like whatever the constructof masculinity
looks like, or pathologically,it could be like a
serial killer. Oh, that isreal interesting.
(08:21):
Yeah. A lot of the literaturetalks about antisocials
having an unrealistic fantasyor hero version of
dad in their mind, maybe becauseit's easier than
accepting that dad is absentor not protective,
or maybe because dad went backand forth between
being the protector and thepersecutor, right?
But regardless in the psyche,the fantasized image
(08:45):
of father is a big pieceof their internal
workings. So it doesn't haveto be a real person.
To your point, it could bea superhero or any
representation of that masculinepower. Right.
Because power is importantto them. Yeah. All
that negative stuff in childhoodmeans that they
likely felt helpless and withoutpower, like not
(09:07):
even having confidence in theirown power or in
the power of others to helpor protect them.
So then it makes sense thatthey would now see
confirmation of their own omnipotence orpower. Absolutely. Yeah. All right. So
picture a child that is neglected,traumatized,
abused, et cetera, and inherentlyhelpless due
(09:28):
to age. Yeah. But teachersdon't save them from
their setting. Maybe the copscome a couple of
times, but they don't save themfrom their abuse.
Child protective services wasinvolved maybe a few
times, but nothing happened.Yeah. So remember how
we talked about the injusticein childhood? Yeah.
The systems and the law failedthem. And the
(09:48):
child was essentially leftto save themselves,
to not rely on or to trustothers, to reject
helplessness and weakness.They had to embody
the power that they need.Yeah. They might
learn like emotions are weak,vulnerability is weak.
None of that is tolerable.And then you have
their family of origin whoprobably didn't help
(10:10):
them learn emotions or how toexpress themselves.
Yeah. Oftentimes like wordswere probably used to
control others, which meansthen manipulation
is learned and then action islearned, right? Not
emotions, not caring for others.They need to act.
They need to have personal powerto save the self,
to invest in the self, tobe self-focused. And
(10:31):
I'm also going to propose thatthat power involves
consuming. So like sometimes consuming
materials, the world, others. Ooh,that is an excellent
example. Yeah. You know whatconsuming reminds me
of? Freud actually boiled downall criminal acts
into two categories. So aversion of incest or
(10:54):
parricide. Basically what thatmeans is either
consuming the parent or killingthe parent.
So crimes of killing othersor violating their
sexual rights. So like maybe the oedipal
complex. Maybe. So he believedthat any other crime was
disguised as or possibly even a more
(11:16):
regressed form of these things.Serial crimes in these
areas serve as a repetition compulsion or
mastering a trauma from earliestattachment.
Okay. Okay. Yeah. So thisis speaking to the
antisocial behavior that canarise from these
early attachment traumas. McWilliams actually
noted that the objects of attachmentcan be both
(11:39):
a source of terror and rage, which are
contradictory and then at leastcontradictory
behaviors. And she providedthe example of like
a baby who smiles and bitesmom. So like inviting
that connection, but thenalso like destroying
or hurting at the same time.Right. This makes so
much sense. Yeah. So this also speaks to
(12:01):
behavior that stems from an inconsistentupbringing and
disorganized attachment as aresult, like bite mom
or hug mom. Right. Both. Yeah.Anyway, so we have
genetics and the environmentbeing just right
to make the antisocial personality,but what's
actually going on underneathall of that? Yeah.
(12:23):
So what's in the psyche? SoReid in 1985 found
that inside the antisocial psyche was
depression and emptiness, makingthem very susceptible to
severe depression, sometimeseven psychotic
depression and even suicide.So especially
during middle age. And Ifind this timeline
(12:45):
particularly interesting becausewe also know
that antisocial behavior andimpulsivity ages out
around middle adulthood. Andit actually makes me
wonder if as the body slowsdown with age, is
the psyche forced to face itsdemons and not run
from them? Okay. So McWilliamsalso notes that
(13:05):
antisocial can burn out inmiddle age and can
become like surprisingly uprightcitizens. So maybe
hormones, like maybe loss ofpower that comes with
middle age. And then basicallylike we have to
face death and the loss of physicalstrength. Now,
McWilliams also proposed thatthis might be the
reason why there aren't as manyfemale antisocials.
(13:27):
So females aren't necessarilyas physically
strong, and then they have todeal with menstruation,
face pregnancy challenges,have increased risk
of abuse, and thus femaleshave to face their own
weakness earlier. Isn't thatinteresting? Yeah.
So there's lots of interestinggender dynamics
that play with the antisocials.Also, antisocial
(13:48):
often lack an internal valuesystem, especially
with more severe presentations.So like, what do
they stand for? Anything? Likeare there goals or
intrinsic motivations? Insidethere's defective
empathy and guilt. So if youdon't have values to
stand on, how can you empathizewith another or
(14:08):
take their perspective toknow when they hurt?
How can you experience guiltif your compass of
right or wrong is misguided?The internal mapping
system is off, so relationshipsare going to
suffer. Sure. But like alsohow can you even
develop a sense of right andwrong when you're
so focused on surviving thetraumatic environment
(14:31):
that you were just spawned into?Fair. Yeah. I do
have deep empathy for antisocialswho don't care.
They don't want my empathy, butI do care. Yeah.
However, it does not equateto overlooking their
harm. Oh, exactly. Yeah. Wecan hold empathy for
how this personality developsand also still make
(14:51):
boundaries and hold them accountablefor their
actions. So also I'm thinkingthat antisocials
can have two sides to them,right? So especially
as they have an unstable senseof who they are.
So they experience self-doubt and areconfused about their self-identity,
actually leading to feelings of
inferiority. But they're so notaware of this at all,
(15:15):
like literal denial. Right. Oh yeah. Theywould never let on at all. Yeah. And
Kernberg actually believed antisocials'self-concept
vacillates between shamefuland exalted images of
the self, which makes theminauthentic. Right?
So if you look closely, youcan see contradictory
behaviors stem from this, likemaybe gluttony or
(15:38):
pleasure seeking versus theself-imposed poverty
that sometimes they go through because of
lack of goals. Okay. Okay.And keep listening,
because we're soon going toget into what they
do with that shame becausethey do not own it.
Oh snap. Yes. So this meansthat their obsession
with power and omnipotencethat we talked about
(16:00):
can also be counteracted with thisinfantile helplessness.
Yes. So McWilliams notes thatjust because there's
an inability to love doesn'tmean that they don't
know there's something outthere that they're
lacking. Yeah. Like somethingthat others are
enjoying, which she saysleads to something
called primitive envy, whichis the wish to destroy
(16:22):
that which one most desires.Oh. So remember
like we want mom, so we smileand then we bite her.
So they can't actually articulatethis usually,
but their behaviors demonstrateit. So they deny,
devalue and depreciate allthe tender things in
life. For example, Ted Bundykilled or destroyed
young women that looked like his mother,
(16:44):
noting he needed to own them.Whoa. Oh my goodness.
So they destroy the verything in which they
desire, especially tenderthings like love.
So perhaps Ted Bundy actuallydesired mama's love
in his killing of other womenthat looked like her.
You got it. Like the psyche is dark and
fascinating. Oh, definitely. Yeah.Wow. But let's move on to
(17:09):
other defenses that are happeninginside the
psyche, leading to this antisocialbehavior.
All right. So all personalitieshave ways to
defend themselves against anxietiesand difficulties
adapting to their world.All personalities
do, right? But for the antisocial,McWilliams
highlights four main defenses.So omnipotent
(17:32):
control, projective identification,dissociation,
and acting out. So let's lookcloser at these
and also define what they are.Okay. So omnipotent
control is the need to exertand confirm one's
power. So there's like an unconsciousbelief that
the self is essentially thebasis of all that
happens. Like their wish anddesires and action
(17:55):
determines an outcome, whichis technically an
extension of the infantile orprimary narcissism.
Yeah. Okay. This goes backto the first six
months of infancy whereI personally think
antisocials get stuck. There is no
understanding that others are separatefrom themselves.
So in infancy, this looks like I'm hungryand therefore I magically get milk.
(18:18):
And then there's no recognitionthat like the
other or mom has any control.Yeah. Now in adulthood,
this could look like somethingbenign. Like I can
be anything that I want to be,or maybe winning a
gamble that you felt was a winner or in a
relationship I've seen this,it could look
like inconsideration. It's like, I'm not
(18:39):
cold, so you must not be cold.Pathologically,
this could be getting oneover on somebody
through conscious manipulation.Like it's found in a lot
of areas where there's powerdynamics, like
politics, business, religioushierarchies,
the military, but omnipotentcontrol defends
(19:00):
against weakness and shame.Absolutely. Yeah.
This actually reminds me of Abraham's
research from 1925 where hetalked about the early
psychological undernourishmentof antisocials
in childhood. So you can seehow they're stuck in
that regressed place becausethey didn't receive
(19:20):
their needs early on. Again,so my hypothesis is
that their deepest wounds andfixation occurred
in the first six months ofinfancy with feeding
and primary narcissism. Not that they're
acting like babies, right? Butthat is where their
deepest wound and hurt stems from. Yeah.
(19:41):
Yeah. And they can. Not allof them do, but
all personalities can tantrum.Yeah, we can all
tantrum. Anyway, there's alsoa cognitive breakdown
here and we can see a peekat some magical
thinking. So like it feltlike a winning game,
therefore it must be, orI can be anything I
want despite limitations. Likethat very primitive
(20:04):
narcissism is evident in theseantisocial types.
Yeah, definitely. Yeah. SoBursten also believed
that this sense of omnipotent stemmed fromchildhood trauma where there's safety in
relationships only when they'rein control and
can manipulate the other. Soit also denies any
dependency needs on the otherand it splits
(20:27):
off any feelings of inferiorityonto the other,
right? So then it also kindof serves as a type
of anxiety reliever becausethe antisocial knows
the outcome if they manipulateit and are in
charge. Ooh, an anxiety reliever.That's an
interesting way to look atit, but like also
deep down, they're not usuallysuper aware of this,
(20:48):
if at all. Yeah, self-awareness is key.Anyway, the next defense mechanism is
projective identification.So that is putting
unacceptable characteristicson the other person,
which is the projection part,and then acting in
a way that elicits the otherto identify with it.
Yeah. So for example, likeweakness is not
(21:09):
acceptable. So the otherperson's weak and
then I'm going to act in away that makes the
other person feel weak andidentify as weak.
According to McWilliams, inability or avoidanceof expressing emotions verbally
means that the only way toget other people to
understand what they're feelingis to evoke that
feeling in them. This is sodeep. Yeah. So let me
(21:31):
give some examples of this.Like they don't trust
you and they elicit mistrustfrom you. So they're
angry, right? And now they'relashing out so you
feel angry too, or they can't feel
empathetic and now you can'tfind empathy for them.
Exactly. All right. So the third defense
mechanism is dissociation. Nowthis defense is actually
(21:53):
really hard to figure out becauseantisocials
lie. Yeah. But it is a possibilitybecause abuse
and dissociation go togetherand antisocials
have experienced abuse. McWilliams notes that
dissociation and an antisocial can range
anywhere from just simplyminimizing personal
responsibility and harm tocomplete amnesia for
(22:15):
a violent crime. Yeah. I thinkthis part is so
interesting and I've heardof cases of like
feigned amnesia, fakingit basically like,
Oh, I blacked out. Don't blame me for the
crime. Right. But this dissociationor splitting off
from the self, like goingsomewhere else in
the body and mind, like itcan be very real
(22:36):
in antisocials. And in somecases, the individual
may be operating out of thisprimitive place of
trauma. Like they don't evenrealize it, but
they're maybe trying to masterthat early trauma.
And some theorists even saythat antisocial
behavior is actually a cryfor help. Like save
me from this trauma. Catchme. Oh boy. Okay.
(22:58):
So you're so right. And theyare never going to
admit to crying out for help.My thought on
this is that if an actionis done in anger,
there may be an effect on memory because
anger does decrease activityin the hippocampus,
but they're very capable ofsimply just doing a
(23:18):
harmful action outside ofanger. So the debate
on this will probably continueforever. Let's
go to the last defense mechanism,acting out
antisocial act when they areupset or elevated,
they just act. And so theycan have difficulty
controlling their impulses. Yeah. And Doc
Fish, you and I actually havea hypothesis that
(23:40):
antisocial are probably body types on theEnneagram, most likely type eights.
I kind of think so. Yeah.So it does take more
to get them to the thresholdof feeling. So for
example, they have a decreasedstartle response.
So if I go and I say boo toan avoidant, they're
(24:01):
going to startle. If I say boo to an
antisocial, they're going to stareat me unforgivingly
until I feel uncomfortable.Yes. So I could say
a cringy, dark, morbid, awfulword, and then say
the word table and the reactionwould be the
same, right? Like the darknesshas no effect on them.
It's just a normal day. And you know what'sinteresting is that in that way,
(24:24):
there's actually an overlap with schizoidand antisocial, no reaction.
I like that. Oh, okay. I haveto stay on track
though. There's an interestingquestion in this
dynamic. Do antisocials lackanxiety or is the
anxiety hidden and invisible?Because after all,
they would never admit tosuch weakness as
(24:46):
anxiety. And if they didexperience anxiety,
they would probably be able to react so
fast that no one would seeit anyway.
#childhoodtrauma. They actquick. Sure. Yeah.
This goes back to what wesaid earlier about
manipulation in relationships.Like it's a
super stealthy way to concealanxiety because no one
(25:07):
would ever guess that they'rebeing manipulated
out of anxiety or weakness,right? Like I think
the anxiety is there, justmaybe well cloaked
and projected outward on theother. Sure. And I'm
going to say anxiety maybe experienced and
denied, like both. I think maybereally severe, unhealthy
antisocial are so stuck intheir sympathetic
(25:30):
nervous system or like inthat fight stance
and protective denial thatthey might truly
be disconnected from anxiety.Okay. Okay. So an
example, like if you're ina boxing ring, you're
not going to startle necessarilyif someone comes
at you because it's expectedand maybe that's
how antisocials feel like they'realways ready.
(25:52):
So there's like less anxietyabout things.
I think so. However, healthierantisocial do
report some anxiety and I'veactually seen this.
Now, it's a deep feeling ofdread, like a feeling
of pending doom. Like it's not expressed
like other personalities mayexpress anxiety.
(26:13):
So it's either hidden or it comes out as irritability,anger, and rage. Yeah. It's
like an elevated sympatheticnervous system
fight response, but lackingthe actual danger.
Yeah. Which then this leadsto the question of
like, what is actually happeningin the body?
Right? Yes. So we do knowthat antisocials have
(26:36):
low serotonin levels and lowreactivity in the
autonomic nervous system,which is the nervous
system that controls all theinvoluntary stuff
we do like breathing andheart rate. So the
sympathetic and parasympatheticnervous system
make up that autonomic nervoussystem. Abuse
triggers the sympathetic nervoussystem. Now,
all of this is importantbecause antisocial
(26:58):
have the high sensation seekingand high threshold
for pleasurable excitement. So like
skydiving. Yeah. This actuallyreminds me of sensation
seeking and having almost anaddiction to novel
experiences. And it also makesme think of how
antisocial at the disorderlevel is highly
correlated with substanceabuse. Like I think
(27:20):
there's a dopamine seekinghere. Sure. I mean,
they don't do well regulatingtheir emotions.
Sometimes they can go back andforth between like
intense anger or rage and likemanic acceleration.
I've seen similar things.Yeah. It actually
makes me wonder if there's anoverlap with bipolar.
(27:41):
Like we've already talked about the deep
depression inside, but like the thrillseeking and the highs
maybe is part of like themood-personality
dynamic. Sure. Maybe. I thinkI view it as a
reaction to power. Like if I can handle
skydiving or maybe rock climbingwithout gear, etc.
(28:03):
I conquer death. Then oneother thing to say
here is that their act firstsensation seeking and
difficulty regulating emotionscan combine to
create a pattern of failing tolearn from experience.
And this explains the repeatedfill in the
blank lying, stealing, lashingout at others, etc.
Exactly. Yeah. And it feedsthe underlying
(28:25):
distortion of omnipotence,right? I can conquer
anything like laws of gravity.Don't apply to
me. Watch! Yeah. So the lastthing I'll say here is
that antisocial often havealso a distorted
or perverse sexuality, likeespecially at the
disorder level antisocials.So what this means is
(28:45):
that anything is possible forsexual gratification,
especially deviant thingsthat most people
wouldn't equate with sex, like urinating,
defecating, underage partners,that type of
stuff, you know? Ooh. Okay. Sofinding pleasure in all
the things, especially deviantthings, right? So
with primary narcissism, right?In the first six
(29:07):
months of life, the infant finds pleasure throughevery sensory experience: eating,
kicking, seeing, hearing,pooping. Like you've
all seen the baby smile afterletting out a poop.
Totally. Yeah. It's a self-orientedform of
pleasure that can be deviantin adult sexuality.
And then pairing this withtheir difficulty
(29:28):
understanding that others areseparate from them,
I do think it can often involve sexualpower dynamics and domination.
Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. Solet's go back to
the trauma and the early experienceof pleasure,
right? So there was possiblystarvation of basic
care and basic pleasure. Sothen they get stuck
(29:50):
in this place of developmentand then seek out
pleasure in areas that mostadults have moved
past from, right? Or adultsthat are healthy and
adjusted see as like taboo orillegal or whatever.
Yeah. Yeah. And all in the search oftheir own self-interest and power.
All right. So coming backaround and putting
all of this together, we againdon't like the
(30:11):
DSM description of antisocial personality
disorder because it onlycaptures behaviors
and not the personality underneath.Yeah. The
PDM gives us a peek into theantisocials' makeup,
starting with genetics andadverse childhood
environments. Society throwsthem in the deep
end and doesn't save them.So they learn how
(30:33):
to swim more powerfully thanthe rest of us,
playing by a different setof rules. Their
mind, body, and emotions arefocused on their own
self-interest originally forsurvival, but it
can turn pathological. Yeah.And that pathological
outcome can look quite differentif it's mixed
with flavors of other personalities.So stay tuned.
(30:54):
Oh, indeed. Yes. We stillhave so much more to
say in this series, includingtalking about subtypes
and how it's different frompsychopathy and
narcissism and all the things.So make sure you
like and subscribe so youdon't miss it. And
if you're a psychology nerd,we also have blogs,
visuals, and references thatcoincide with each
episode at www.personalitycouch.com.And if you're
(31:18):
a provider looking to consultabout a case or
you're in need of psychodynamictherapy or a deep
dive psychological evaluation,our private practice
Quest Psych can help with that.I'll provide a link
in the show notes. Be well, be kind, and
we'll see you next time on thePersonality Couch.
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Hey Jonas! The official Jonas Brothers podcast. Hosted by Kevin, Joe, and Nick Jonas. It’s the Jonas Brothers you know... musicians, actors, and well, yes, brothers. Now, they’re sharing another side of themselves in the playful, intimate, and irreverent way only they can. Spend time with the Jonas Brothers here and stay a little bit longer for deep conversations like never before.
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Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by Audiochuck Media Company.