April 21, 2026 • 44 mins
🎬In this episode of the Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) unpack the passive-parasitic and aggressive subtypes from history before jumping into Dr. Theodore Millon’s 6 subtypes. At the mild level, we look at: the Covetously Aggrandizing & Disaffected Aggrandizing Antisocials. At the moderate level, we explore the Risk-Taking Devious and Reputation-Defending Devious Antisocials. At the severe/disordered level, we discuss the Nomadic & Malevolent Antisocial Subtypes. We end with our thoughts and opinions about the line for disorder and explain why the antisocial personality is so challenging to understand.
⚠️Note: this podcast does not constitute a professional relationship. If you're in need of professional help, please seek out appropriate resources in your area. ⚠️
Chapters 0:00 Intro to Antisocial’s Historical Names 02:16 Are antisocials born or made (psychopath vs sociopath)? 03:14 Passive-parasitic and Aggressive Antisocials 04:32 What is a Normal Antisocial Personality? 04:40 The Adventurer 05:45 The Unconventional Antisocial 08:28 Intro to Millon’s 6 Subtypes 08:48 Mild Level: Aggrandizing Antisocial 09:59 Does Dominance Fill an Inner Void? 10:52 The Covetously Aggrandizing Antisocial 11:22 Criminal Behavior at the Mild Level 15:11 The Disaffected Aggrandizing Antisocial 17:06 Proneness to Addiction 18:11 Proneness to Infidelity 19:02 Contrasting the Mild Types 20:25 Moderate Level: The Devious Antisocial 21:39 Risk-Taking Devious (Histrionic & Turbulent Features) 25:56 Reputation-Defending Antisocial (Narcissistic & Sadistic Features) 27:24 Proneness to Criminal Behavior 28:02 Relationship & Work Challenges 29:17 What Are They Defending? 31:17 Severe Level: Antisocial Personality Disorder 31:45 Nomadic Antisocial (Schizoid & Avoidant Features) 33:18 Doom & Invincibility Focus 36:54 Malevolent Antisocial (Sadistic & Paranoid Features) 41:49 Our Thoughts & Opinions 43:46 Summary & Conclusion
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(01:00:00):
Welcome to the PersonalityCouch podcast where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co-host, Doc Fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in private
practice. And today we are continuingour series on
antisocial personality disorder.Antisocial
(01:00:20):
is the countercultural personalitythat can be
prone to criminal behavior,but not always.
It actually comes in manyshapes and sizes
from the behavior of a psychopathto the quiet
defiance of Rosa Parks standingup to racism on
that Alabama bus. Antisocialas a personality
is vast. So we're going tounpack the different
(01:00:40):
flavors and subtypes of this personality,
including six by our favoritetheorist, Dr. Theodore
Millon. Let's dive in. Antisocialhas been a much
debated personality datingback as early as the
1800s. Researchers and cliniciansargued over
a few things, such as is antisocialan actual
standalone personality oris an antisocial
(01:01:04):
reaction a part of multiple typesof personalities?
Yeah. So basically asking is angst a
countercultural, rebelliousattitude? Like is that
its own personality construct or can any
personality be prone to theseantisocial tendencies?
Exactly. So they also arguedif antisocial is
(01:01:25):
a standalone personality, shouldthese types be
socially condemned, especiallygiven possible run
ins with the law? Right. Whichis so unfortunate.
And that brings me to thequestion, is it even
possible to take values andmorals aside when
considering this countercultural
personality? Like how do we judgewhat is acceptable in
(01:01:46):
society and what's not? Like who gets to
decide when countercultural typeshould be punished?
Like what is the line? Absolutely.That is a
burning question of mine aswell. Yeah. Which
we talked about in our lastepisode too, which
I'll link in the show notesbelow, but researchers
debated this too, not justus. And they actually
created names for antisocial,like moral insanity
(01:02:09):
or constitutionally inferior,and then changed
these names later to be lessvalue-laden. So using
terms like psychopathic stateand psychopathic
personality instead. This ofcourse led to arguing
over how the antisocial conditionstarts. Are
they born or are they made?And then from this
argument came (01:02:31):
are antisocials sociopaths or are
they psychopaths? Right. Ifthey're psychopaths,
which means born or originatingin the psyche,
then they're like born delinquent.Right. So
said a different way, theseantisocial types are
predisposed to break the lawand push boundaries
or so some thought. But conversely,if they're
(01:02:54):
sociopaths in the traditionalmeaning of the word,
not the way that we understandthe word to be
now, but in the traditionalmeaning of the word,
then society creates themby being traumatic
and awful and then rejectsthem all the same.
Right. And then no wonder there's a self-focusand a rejection of others, but
yes, only later did researchersstart to see
(01:03:14):
that not all antisocial typesare prone to criminal
behavior. In fact, most aren't.Some of the
most helpful research distinguishedbetween passive
and aggressive versions of this personality.Exactly. Yeah. So some of the earliest
researchers, so these were peoplelike Henderson,
Karpman, Schneider, and Wolmandivided antisocial
(01:03:37):
into actively criminal or aggressive and
then passively parasitic.Okay. So parasite,
like meaning like a parasite who lives offof a host, much like a con artist would.
Exactly. Yep. That's whatparasitic means. So
then Wolman in 1987 in particularsaid that,
while aggressive types aremore overtly violent,
(01:04:00):
the narcissistic parasitic triesto "win favors by
presenting themselves as victims of bad
luck, expecting the entire worldto act as a milk
giving mother." Oh goodness. That is so
interesting. It's like a manipulativething to get what they
want. And then that probablymeans they're also
prone to laziness. Absolutely.Yes. Yes. Living
(01:04:24):
off of a host, right? So someoneelse does the
work. They're kind of vulturesmaybe in that way,
picking at what the leftoversare. But anyway,
this begs the question, likewhat is a normal
antisocial personality anyway?And can it even
be normal? Sure. So Oldhamand Morris's normal
antisocial is labeled theadventurer. So not
(01:04:45):
bound to the same fears andanxieties as the
rest of us, living on the edge,challenging the
rules of life, you know, maybewalking on the moon,
breaking the sound barrier,crossing the oceans,
essentially living a thrillinggame against their
own mortality. Absolutely.Yeah. I imagine like
the Christopher Columbus typesor the entrepreneur
(01:05:06):
types that defy the oddsto take risks and
adventures to discover new worlds,new inventions,
like against all odds. Right.Exactly. Or the
types that maybe are firstresponders who aren't
afraid to run into a burningbuilding, maybe a
Navy seal who fearlessly goeson missions that defy
water and gravity that pushtheir endurance.
(01:05:29):
Absolutely. Yeah. So thesetypes at the normal
level are fearless boundarypushers who find an
adaptive way to use their strengthand sheer guts
in a way that benefits themselvesand society.
Yes. And then we have anothernormal personality.
So we have the unconventionalantisocial. So
they don't care about otherpeople's judgments
(01:05:50):
or the consequences of doingthings their own
way. Like they do what theywant. Yeah. They're
skeptical about other people'smotives and
often flirt with boundaries oftruth and law, adult
responsibilities in orderto pursue their own
self-interest. So they arevery independent and
can be creatively autonomous.Ooh, this is
interesting. Okay. So itsounds like these
(01:06:13):
dissenting antisocial have a pop of
narcissism in that they're lookingout for number one,
right? But not in a way thatis destructive or
maybe causes harm to others,but they are going
to have a bit of angst,perhaps maybe in a
way that's creative, but I'mcurious what your
thoughts are about thatDoc Fish. Like how
(01:06:34):
would these creative pursuitsbe different from the
normal antisocial that wejust talked about?
Sure. I think that they areso independent that
they find creative ways toget around things,
like depending on others.So it's not like an
artistic creative, but moreof like advanced
critical thinking, thinkingoutside of the box
(01:06:55):
to make sure that they are actually are
autonomous. Right. Okay. So thisisn't like a creative
genius person. This is likecreative in the
sense that they are making surethat they don't need
others and that they can keepthe control and
finding really crafty waysto do that is what
that means. And then their narcissismis just more
a self-focus, like they're self-motivatedand even
(01:07:17):
criticized by others as impulsive and
irresponsible. Millon notes thatthey "stretch the limit of
established social standardsand push forward by
means of sheer will by returningobstacles with
clever maneuvers or an aggressive and
intimidating posture." Okay. AndI can see how these types
would really dislike authority and be
(01:07:38):
confrontational, which wouldmake them great leaders
with decisive action and confidence.But I can
also see how they would rufflefeathers and rub
people the wrong way, but maybenot necessarily
in a pathological way, butmaybe in a way where
they're just maybe not everyone's cup of
tea, right? So too strong,too brash, too harsh.
(01:08:02):
I'm actually thinking of the Enneagram
here, shocker, right? Butthe Enneagram Type 8
would map onto this. It'snot a perfect match,
but I think most likely therewould be a fit there.
Would you agree? Oh, absolutely.Yeah. And I
think probably others react tothem in polarized ways,
kind of like either love themor hate them kind
(01:08:23):
of attitude. Totally. I totallysee that. Yes.
Okay. But now let's move toMillon's six subtypes.
So Millon actually notes thatall of the subtypes
are possible, but he onlyhighlights six. And
as a quick recap, he divideshis subtypes into
three severity categories. Somild, moderate, and
(01:08:44):
severe. Each category has twosubtypes for a total
of six. His first, the normalor the mild level,
we have the aggrandizing personality.So aggrandize
means to make even bigger, to make more
powerful. So because of thisrelationship to power,
aggrandizing types, thoughthey're normal, are
(01:09:05):
considered by others as pathological.In large
part, because these types, even at the
mildest level, are disruptors.Yeah. So I think we,
as a society, have difficultyunderstanding
any personality that goes againstthe current and
challenges what we deem as normal.So clinically,
this level is normal, but socially,I think most
(01:09:26):
people would consider abnormal and
pathological. So the bad thingsabout antisocial can be
sublimated into society ina way that's very
adaptive. So things like ambition,independence,
competition, risk-taking,decisiveness, right?
Those can work for societyand for themselves.
(01:09:47):
Their willpower is amazing.They are great at
overcoming things and theydo so independently.
They take charge, they'reassertive, they're
dominant. Yeah, these types,you don't mess with
these types, right? And I actuallywonder though,
if that dominance that's somuch a part of their
personality, do you think that'smaybe a way to
(01:10:07):
distract or fill an inner void?Oh, definitely.
Now they would deny thatthis void is even
present. Probably. I'm surethere's healthy
antisocials. But they makeit work for them,
whereas disordered antisocialfail to do so.
And essentially that inner void was likelycreated from deprivation in childhood.
(01:10:31):
Absolutely. Yeah, that'sa common theme that
I'm seeing with these typesis there's trauma,
significant trauma in childhood.But this would
make sense that they are takingmatters into their
own hands then. I'm in control.I can't trust
anyone to take care of me becausethey haven't,
so I need to be the one incharge. You got it.
But yeah, let's look at thosemild subtypes though.
(01:10:52):
So firstly, the covetously aggrandizing
type. Yeah, the core of thistype involves greedy
self-enhancement and thedesire to possess
and dominate, sometimes evencriminally. So like
thieves, manipulative businessmen who exploitothers for their own self-interest.
Oh my goodness. But holdup, hold up. Did I
(01:11:12):
hear you right that you saidcriminal here?
Yes. Okay. And this is the normal or themild level, right? According to Millon.
So how are we already at criminalbehavior? That's my question.
Right. And we are already coming up
against the line of what's normaland what's not.
So, and we don't know where that line is.
(01:11:32):
So other characteristics includebeing pushy,
self-centered, dissatisfied,envy is greedy, and
just enjoying taking over things.They feel like
life has deprived them of what they are
rightfully owed, like love andsupport and materials,
while others have more thanenough. So there's
envy. They want to take, evenif it means lying
(01:11:55):
or destroying. That envy, yeah, that envy
drives them. Wow. So I can seehow people would find
this mild type pathological,right? That type
of energy is really hard todeal with. And like I
said before, the childhoodtrauma part is a
really big piece of the antisocial'shistory and their
psychological makeup. So, andwhat I've read is
(01:12:18):
that many as children reportnot feeling loved.
Like that's sad. That is a reallytragic place to
start, right? So they are startingat this place
of emotional poverty. Andthen out of that is
this voracious appetite. Right.They are. And it
kind of reminds me of kiddoswho didn't have
access to food maybe. And thenthey focus on like taking
(01:12:40):
and taking and taking more, but these are
adults. Right. It's different.Yeah. So they are angry,
resentful, and revenge driven, like
manipulating others, like pawnsin their power game. Their
goal is to compensate forthe emptiness of
life rationalized by the assertionthat they alone
can restore the imbalancefated to them. So
(01:13:03):
there is a big self-reliancepiece. Like I alone can
make the changes because noone looked out for
me. Like I don't trust thatanyone has my best
interest in mind. So I takecharge. Exactly.
Exactly. But then the problemis that they are
never satisfied or feel that they've been
compensated enough. They feelempty and they're
(01:13:24):
insatiable. Like a self-centeredlion who's just
forever hungry, like literallya predator pursuing
prey. They won't ever haveenough and they are
not going to share. Wow. Yeah.So we all feel like
we're the pawns or the preyin their power vacuum
game. So I keep thinking like,no wonder this type
(01:13:45):
doesn't make friends super easilyor fit into the
social herd well. Sure. Sure.And there's a smug,
justified entitlement thatrationalize them to
take from others so they caneven be ostentatious
and display what they've takenas a form of power.
Wow. So like, like this, lookat me, like look at
(01:14:06):
this, but what might they showoff though? Like
I'm in my head, I'm picturinglike a lion parading
his prey around for othersto see. But like,
what, can you give me an exampleof what that would
look like? Yeah. Like anymaterials, so money,
house, car, et cetera. Aha.Now it is important
to note that this is very different from
(01:14:27):
narcissists who have a passive attitudeof entitlement and can
feel satisfied with possessionswhen it meets
their image needs. Okay. In contrast,the covetous,
aggrandizing personality,they are actively
exploitative to take thingsbecause of their
deep sense of emptiness andpowerful hunger for
(01:14:48):
love and stuff they just didn'tget in childhood.
Okay. It's like a kid saying, it's mine, myteddy bear, you can't have it. And then
shoving the kid who triedto take it for a
snuggle. And not only that, butprobably also taking
everybody else's teddy beartoo, because other
people got more than they did.Yeah. That envy,
back to that envy piece that drives their
(01:15:08):
behavior. Yeah. But in theinterest of time,
let's move to the next subtype, which isthe disaffected aggrandizing subtype.
Okay. So this is an interestingsubtype that
I think is a bit harder tounderstand. They're
oppositional, don't care aboutpleasing people.
They don't rely on others.They make decisions
without other people's input.When problems
(01:15:29):
happen, they see it and they actfast, but they focus on
their independence becausethey don't actually
want to conform to society atall. So they struggle
with abstract goals and theyprefer to work
physically for more visual,tangible outcomes.
And those outcomes need to happen as soon
as possible. Okay. All right.So hang on. I'm
(01:15:50):
already seeing that this typeis different from
the covetously aggrandizing,right? They don't
necessarily have that same goal-directedbehavior
is what I'm hearing. But instead,it's more of this
mindless action for immediategratification.
Sure. I think it's like theyhave so much energy
and they try to direct it somewhere,but they also
(01:16:11):
don't want to play by society'srules. Of course.
Yeah. So they can be veryimpatient and it's
possible that they take ontoo much too fast,
and then they're not ableto sustain it. Or
sometimes maybe they startsomething super
intensely, then fail to follow through.
Okay. So they're motivatedby newness and risk,
(01:16:31):
but then sometimes otherpeople view them as
making impulsive moves, butthey actually have
thought it out. Okay. That'sreally interesting.
So the risk-taking, adrenaline-seeking,movers,
doers, like I need to act,right? But that need
to act can look impulsive, butit's also just their
constant reward-seeking, right?I preemptively
(01:16:54):
want to say that this typeseems like it could
be prone to addiction, giventhat. And I'm
thinking that maybe the intermittentreinforcement of a
slot machine, like pull the lever, get an
outcome. Like if that's the waythat they live life,
are they more prone to dopamine-seekingand
addictions? Right. I thinkit's the newness.
(01:17:15):
So they're not going to pulla lever over and
over and over again, likethe rest of society.
They're going to figure outa way to make it
work for them, win, and thenfind a new thing.
So there's a conflict though, because
they're attracted to thingsthat aren't actually
achievable, like unconventional things,
adventurous things, but they'renot actually good at
functioning the way that they want to. Wow.And yet they're so self-focused and
(01:17:39):
uncompliant that they switchbetween this troubled
disaffection and a radicallyunpredictable action.
Oh my goodness. This soundsmiserable. Like it
sounds like their action, thatneed for immediate
gratification, that's notgoing to lead to a
fulfilling life, right? Maybethey're not able
(01:17:59):
to see the big picture andjust seek out the
novelty of it all, like the newness,the next shiny
thing, right? But in my headwith the newness
shiny thing, I'm also wondering,is this type
perhaps prone to multiplepartners because of
that novelty? Interesting. Perhaps,but they also
don't rely on people anddon't really care
(01:18:21):
about pleasing other people.So I can't imagine that
they're going to be super emotionallyconnected
to begin with. Of course, ofcourse. Yeah. Now,
they can really focus on theirdissatisfaction
and disappointments, beingdisillusioned with
the self and others, leadingthem to withdraw
into themselves, be irritable,contrary, and possess
(01:18:42):
a venturesome, constructiveself-determination.
I'm just imagining like a tornado.This type sounds
a little bit like a tornado, like
destructive, it's haphazard. Butit does make me wonder,
like this mindless action that you're
describing, what is their endgoal? It sounds like the
(01:19:02):
covetously aggrandizing type,the one we just
talked about, is the typeto start their own
business because maybe theydon't like that
their boss has more money, right?They're envious,
but they have the chops tosee it through and
make it successful. But thenthe disaffected type,
the one we're talking aboutnow, would maybe be
drawn to the newness of startinga business and
(01:19:23):
a new idea, but maybe not havethe chops to see
it through and maybe complainabout it afterwards.
Maybe. I think that theywould definitely be
drawn to the newness and riskof starting a business.
They may not see it throughbecause they start
five at once maybe, or theybecome disillusioned
with the rules of running it, like taxes,
(01:19:43):
permits, load of poop. Society isway too controlling for
them and they reject it. Right.I see. Yeah. Yeah.
That's that antisocial againstsocial norms. And to
run a business, you haveto play by some set
of rules. So these aggrandizingtypes are a bit
difficult to understand inthat they appear
(01:20:04):
pathological in a lot of ways,but at the normal
level, they're really notlike they're just
angsty and ruthless self-referencing,but it's not
necessarily diagnostic. I thinkso. They're less
overt in their antisocial behaviors.Yeah. I see
that. Yeah. I agree becauseit does get worse. It
does get worse. So with that,I think we need to
(01:20:25):
move on to the moderate levelwhere we have two
subtypes. Again, we have therisk taking devious
and the reputation defendingdevious. So the
overall defining feature hereis that both types
can disintegrate if their efforts are
unsuccessful and socially rejected,requiring more devious
ways of obtaining theirneeds. Exactly. So
(01:20:47):
if not successful and socially supported,
the aggrandized personalitiescan disintegrate
into more problematic levelsand devious means
being more impulsive, irresponsible, nonconforming,and just causing trouble.
So as their competence deteriorates,their
behaviors become more sociallyunacceptable,
and then they become moreovertly antisocial.
(01:21:10):
Interestingly, incarcerationis not actually
helpful, but actually increases their
deviousness. Oh, that is so interesting.Yeah. So antisocials
are also prone to slippinginto more severe
versions of themselves ifthis high need for
gratification and independenceare not met. So
they will keep pushing the envelopemore and more
(01:21:33):
and more to meet those needs,which could mean
interfering with the law. Right.Okay. So we'll
start first with the risk taking devious
subtype, which overlaps with histrionicand turbulent
features and is described byMillon as impulsive,
unreflective, fearless, bold,audacious, reckless,
and uninhibited. Oh my word.Okay. So if this
(01:21:57):
type is overlapping with histrionicpersonality,
I imagine there's a lot ofenergy here. Not that
this type doesn't have a lotof energy to begin
with, but maybe there's an attention
seeking component or maybe there'shighs and lows
coinciding with energy expenditure.Yeah. I don't
think that they necessarilydesire attention like
the histrionic, but theydo need stimulation
(01:22:19):
and activity. Okay. So maybemore like a hyper-
activeness or like a manic-yenergy. Okay. So
it has more to do with energythan attention here.
So energy and dopamine, likethat makes sense.
Hypomanic or manic-like energyin pursuit of the
antisocial things. Yes. Andso these types are
(01:22:40):
thrill seekers needing excitementand stimulation.
They're unfazed by danger,pursuing like legit
perilous adventures and gamblingwith life in
search of just trying to feelalive. Oh, oh, so
they hold on. They don't feelalive is what you're
saying. Well, remember howantisocials need more
stimulation? Yeah. So theirsympathetic nervous
(01:23:03):
system needs a much higherinput to achieve an
excitement level. So think abouthow activated an
antisocial child is goingto be in a constant,
dangerous, neglectful environment.Right. So their
brain is wired to need more.Their childhood was
colored with neon markers becausethey're trying
to survive. And then now they'rewalking around
(01:23:24):
as adults feeling like thecolors of the world
are muted. So then they do things like
skydiving, drag racing, jumpinginto a pool from a hotel
balcony. Oh, holy smokes. Yeah.Dopamine, right?
To feel some sense of alivenessor safety. Like
it's replicating the neonhighlighter from
childhood, right? These big, bold things.
(01:23:48):
Definitely. Wow. So to otherpeople, it seems
like silly and not courageous.They don't control
their behaviors. They act beforethinking. They
don't care about consequencesif they even think
about them. There's actuallya case in Millon's
book where a man, "hasa death wish he tries
to sell as a quest for theultimate life." Huh.
(01:24:09):
And then even at events withothers doing similar
things like drag racing andstuff, like he'd get
kicked out for being too extreme.Oh my. And he
reportedly stated,"You have to have a
hint of death in your life forexistence to be truly
savory." What in the world?Okay. Living on the
(01:24:29):
edge, right? But then I question,is this a counter
move because they're tryingto feel alive? So they
have to tempt fate and deathto feel that aliveness?
Right. And I think that's the other part
because like, how powerful areyou if you're not even
scared of death or like howstrong are you if
you don't even blink an eyeat the possibility of
(01:24:52):
fatality? Like how nonconforming?Yes. And then
also the antisocial part isthe neglect of others
in pursuing their excitementbecause they're
irresponsible, unempathetic,not at all dependable.
Right. Yeah. So they're going to bulldoze
others in the process. Yes. Theydo not want to feel
trapped or burdened, suffocated or
(01:25:12):
constrained by responsibilitiesor routine or boredom.
Goodness. Or even the needsof a relationship,
right? I can't, this is mebeing biased here,
but I can't imagine being married to thistype who's always risking death. Like
your spouse would not beokay with that, but
I don't know how many personalitieswould be.
I can see a lot of marital conflict inthese types because of that.
(01:25:37):
I mean, maybe some individuals find each otherand become like adventure couples.
Maybe. But otherwise there's probablyno tying down this antisocial.
Okay. So maybe they might even have
difficulty committing to a long-termrelationship.
Possible. Oh, interesting. Okay.
So now we have the reputation defending
(01:25:59):
devious subtype, which overlapswith narcissistic and
sadistic features. Ooh.
Yeah. So remember the covetous type one's materials,risk taking one's stimulation,
and now the reputation defendingone's status.
Okay. Yeah. I'm already seeing that
narcissism overlap here already.And then if we have
sadistic features popping up,this can't be good
(01:26:22):
because sadistic is findingpleasure in harming
others. Exactly. The reputation defending
type becomes someone like notto be trifled with,
wanting others to see themas infallible, tough,
powerful, brave, invincible,unbreakable, like not
to be conquered, always to be respected,
strong. You can't actuallypush them around.
(01:26:44):
I see that. Yeah.
They're overreactive, disliked, sometimes
ruminating on the negative andhaving an outburst
or sometimes just erupting intensely,
intimidatingly, they're threateningand posturing.
Oh, this is not my idea of a bestie.
Yeah. Yeah. They defend the reputation,
not always in hostility.So some are loners,
(01:27:06):
some might be in gangs, someare aggressive
leaders and alphas and dominantsat the top of the pack.
Sometimes they can be violent, which isthe sadistic part. They can actually
engage in violence or terrorism, feeling
like they are the victim andthen thus feeling
justified in their counter actions. Okay.
So question, are we moreprone to criminal
(01:27:27):
behavior here with thistype? Like I can't
help but think if we're bringingin the sadistic
features, we would have to be. I wouldthink so. If in the correct position,
they might just get away with trampling everybodyelse on their way up to the top.
I'm thinking a business person,right? Or I
don't know, what other professionmight we find this
type? Oh goodness. I mean, probably Wall
Street, business, politics,militia, I mean,
(01:27:51):
criminally gangs, mafias. Absolutely. All
the usual hiding places forthe narcissists,
paranoid and antisocial,no surprise, right?
But also, can this type havefriends? Like,
this is me being biased andI recognize that
because I struggle with thistype, but like,
who would befriend this type? Maybe otherswho have a similar angsty mindset?
(01:28:13):
Yeah, maybe more submissive or paranoidtypes who want to follow their path,
but not actually fight at the forefront.
Okay. So maybe people whohave similar aims
and don't mind pushing otherpeople around under
a stronger leader, maybe, whichwould then take me
to gangs or groups that oppress other
people. But then outside of gangs,like, do certain
(01:28:36):
personalities flock to thistype of person
because this is, again, thisis me being biased
and I recognize that, butyour average person
is not necessarily going tobe attracted to this,
right? Like, unless they're pathological.
Okay. Well, okay. So thereare personalities
that are attracted to powerand dominance and
(01:28:56):
status and the like. Sure.So opposites attract,
pathology attracts pathology. This is so
true. Yeah. So some types seethe good in everyone
and they think, Oh, this personjust needs love.
Like love can make them better.I'll rescue you.
Yeah. Yeah. So is this type that as a
(01:29:17):
reputation defending type, arethey defending their ego
for power? Certainly thisis certainly not a
popularity contest. So whatis their version
of a reputation that they are defending?
Power. Yeah. No, they want power.And then if they
have it, no one else can challenge them. Sothey get the status and the reputation,
(01:29:39):
then they have all the control.I see. Okay. But
still we are not at disorderlevel, right? Yeah.
That's wild to me. The linefor disorder is
just not clear. I know. I know.And I struggle with
that. But as I've been saying this whole
series, I do struggle with thistype. So my own biases
and judgment come in. I'mnot Millon, but I
(01:30:00):
would have put disorder furtherup the line,
but maybe he sees somethingI don't. And maybe
he doesn't have the same biasedlens that I do here.
Possibly. I mean, for myself,I would have
to assess the line on a caseby case basis. So
still not sure where the lineswould be. Yeah.
And I struggle with that, thatthere isn't a clear
line, right? Cause this butts up against
(01:30:21):
morality and judgment and philosophyand psychology and
all the things. Yeah. I think,I mean, they have
a place in the world. I'm notsure. I personally don't
desire to be friends withthem. If they're
too much energy, I do havethat respect for the
antisocial. Of course. Ofcourse. Yeah. But as
we talked about earlier, they'renot going to be
everybody's cup of tea. Right.Yeah. And to
(01:30:42):
your point, every personalitydoes have a place
in this world, just like aCrayola box full of
all the colors. We need allthe colors, right?
But not every personality is going to be
your bestie. Right. So yes,I do think that the
moderate subtypes though are easier to
understand than the mild ones becausetheir motives seem
clearer and their antisocialnessseems more
overt. Yeah. I can see that.Yeah. And it puts them
(01:31:05):
closer to the problematic behavior and
personality disintegration as a result.Definitely. So these
moderate types can disintegrateeasily due to
social rejection. And so withthat, let's move
on to the severe level, whichmeans we might
be antisocial personalitydisorder territory.
I think so. Yep. So at thatdisorder level,
(01:31:27):
antisocials withdraw or turnaggressive towards
society only focused on theirown self-interest
and definitely not focusedon others. So they're
previously antisocial and maybe socially unacceptableacting out, then turns into a
pervasive lifestyle. So here we have the
(01:31:47):
nomadic antisocial and the malevolentantisocial.
Yeah. Almost opposites. Yes.So the nomadic
antisocial subtype showcasesschizoid and avoidant
features. They are less focusedon active revenge,
but they still have that deepanger and resentment
stemming from previous rejection,disappointment,
and injustices suffered. Theyjust want to detach
(01:32:09):
and go away from the socialworld, rejecting
responsibilities of societylike work, taking
care of a house, havinga family, all that
stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But stillthis doesn't sound
pathological so far. And inmy head, I'm going
certainly not with schizoidin here. How can that
be more sinister than sadisticfeatures? It's
(01:32:29):
coming. The schizoid is justthe flavor. There's
still an antisocial core inthere. Of course.
Just like I always say, personalitiesare like
gobstoppers. What's on theoutside layers is not
necessarily what's at the core.So you're saying
they are very dark on theinside, but one of
those outer layers couldbe more of a turtle
(01:32:49):
or more of a schizoid withinan antisocial.
Yeah. Yeah, possibly. There'sactually like a
passive asociality in shedding all those responsibilities,focusing only on basic
survival. So they literally roam, like
wander, drift. Sometimes they'rehomeless. They're
functioning on the outskirtsof society. Yeah.
Internally, usually unconsciouslytoo, they feel
(01:33:11):
abandoned, unwanted, ostracized, cursed,
ill-fated, with a mood centeringon doom and invincibility.
Ooh, doom and invincibility. Those are twowords you don't typically hear together.
So they wander from placeto place focusing
on survival. Like maybethey feel hopeless
about it all, but how inthe world does that
(01:33:34):
go along with invincibility?Well, I think they
feel invincible because theyare genuinely good
at surviving and adaptingto hard situations.
But then on the inside, there's like this
sense of doom, kind of anxiety.Sure. All right. So
homelessness means not being tied down toanything or anyone, not a home, family,
(01:33:56):
taxes, anything that encumbers.I will say
here, side note, I don't believethat most people
experiencing homelessness are antisocial,likely not, but it does happen with some
antisocials as we're talkingabout here. Yeah.
And I don't think that they feellike they fit into
society anyway. They defendthemselves then by
detaching and coping with feelinglike a misfit
(01:34:19):
by focusing on their own independence.
Millon actually noted that someadopted children
become nomadics in their wandering
search for natural parentsor like a true home.
Oh, that is really interesting.Yeah. And then I
like this quote by Millon. So"The sense of being
no place is both similar toand different from
(01:34:41):
the experience of depersonalization.Nomadics appear
vaguely disconnected fromreality, possess no
clear sense of self and seemto be transients
both within the self and their
environment." Ooh, that is so interesting.So they are
restless wanderers searchingfor home. And
(01:35:02):
what I'm hearing is they'realmost dissociative.
Which might be the schizoid part. Yes.Yes. Okay. So disconnected,
detached from society, thedisconnection and
detachment are words we oftenuse with schizoid.
But I'm still going, howare these types at
disorder level? I don't understandthat this
does not feel problematicyet, especially in
(01:35:24):
comparison to the other typesthat we've mentioned
and we're supposed to be in disorder territory.So help me understand that.
Well, remember any subtype can be at any
severity level, so they don't haveto be disordered, but
Millon placed them here. Okay.So for his example,
he said they're still antisocial.They still have
that deep resentment and hostilityand desire for
(01:35:45):
pleasure, especially sexually.And so if provoked
or using substances, they canact out in a very
impulsive predatory like way,such as physically
or sexually assaulting weakerothers, mostly
who aren't likely to fightback strongly. Oh,
dear. So they can be prone to being a
predator, prostitution, alcoholism,those things.
(01:36:07):
Okay. Yep. And here's wherewe have the issue,
right? Now we're not justpushing back against
norms or being a criminalnuisance. Like now
we're potentially violatingothers' rights.
That's disorder level. That'sa no-go. Therein
lies the darkness of the antisocialact against
the schizoids passiveness. Ah ha. So a schizoidwould, I'll say almost never,
(01:36:31):
violate the rights of others, especially
sexually. But you take theschizoid-y, detached,
loner piece, add in the feelingsof rejection
and vindictiveness of the avoidant,you stir it all
up with antisocial angstand acting out. And
there you have a character atthe disorder level,
but it goes darker. It alwaysdoes. Yes. Okay.
(01:36:54):
So that leads us to the lastof the severe types,
the malevolent antisocial.Okay. Bring it on.
All right. So the malevolentantisocial subtype
showcases sadistic and paranoidfeatures. Millon
uses some pretty strong adjectivesto describe
this subtype, like belligerent,predatory,
vicious, brutal, callous,vengeful, guiltless,
(01:37:16):
and hostile with a chip on the shoulder
attitude and a readiness to lashout at all times. Wow.
They are motivated by theunjustness of their
childhood mistreatments, likereal or perceived.
Yeah. And then they've learnedthat imminent
attacks and betrayals from othersare a constant.
My goodness. So having sadistic,antisocial, and
(01:37:39):
paranoid pieces together soundlike a recipe for
disaster and the makings of a very
dangerous character. So we havesome of the darkest
personalities all wrapped up into one. So sadistic,again, meaning finding pleasure
in hurting others. Paranoidsmean they attack
first before they're attacked.And then antisocial
(01:37:59):
means angsty and manipulative.So this person
sounds like, honestly, they'reon their way to
prison. I mean, there is ahigher probability
of that if they get caught.Always. Right. I'm
thinking like any tenderness, including
empathy, by others is rejectedbecause the antisocial
thinks it's a plot to deceivethem. They do
not trust other people. Theyhave adopted a cold
(01:38:21):
blooded ruthlessness in theirpursuit for revenge
and retribution. So they obviouslyreject any of
their own weakness and submission,focusing on
proving their own strength.And so then they may
flirt with danger or punishment,which makes
them feel like they're treatedunjustly, which then
turns into a cycle. A cycle.Yep. So then with
(01:38:43):
more power, they actually becomemore brutal to
keep supporting their strong,powerful self
image. Good grief. So more powermeans it ups the ante
and the need for more andmore and more power.
It's that voracious appetitethat we talked about
before, right? It's insatiable.It's never enough
(01:39:05):
power. And then using that powerto exploit others
and then projecting theirown weakness onto
others. I actually imaginethat some of the
most notorious world leadersfrom history had a
similar personality profile,basically getting
drunk on their own power while oppressing
the very people they wereelected to serve.
(01:39:25):
I mean, I've read many a thingthat mentioned
paranoid, antisocial andsadistic flavors in
psychopathy. Yeah, absolutely. That's a
conversation for another day. Oh,absolutely. Lots of places
we could go with that and weare prepared to go
there. So we do have anotherepisode in the works
of antisocial versus psychopathy.What's the
actual difference? Subscribeso you don't miss it.
(01:39:47):
That's going to be a real good one. Okay.
Well, let's sum this up and talkabout the sadistic
part. So we can see paranoidfeatures in the
suspiciousness and hostility.We can see the
sadistic features and feelings of being
deprived, which results in wantingcompensation and
retribution in the form of cruelty. The
antisocial core is found inthe desire to destroy,
(01:40:09):
which results in hateful pushback against
normal social roles. So theirbehaviors can become
ridiculously antisocial withoutempathy, honestly,
like an arrogant contempt forthe rights of others.
Yeah. So these types are suspiciousand hostile
towards others. When they feelthat they have been
slighted, then they go ona revenge rampage.
(01:40:32):
So pushing against norms,rules of the land,
and stepping on the rightsof others. So I
am curious though, in whatother profession
might we find these types aside from professionalcriminals and politicians, right?
Oh boy. Maybe lawyers. I feel likeit would serve them well.
Uh-huh. Right. So the types that would defendthe criminals and the politicians,
(01:40:53):
like they work together like a burning
house. That's true. Okay. Okay.Let me put another
interesting nugget in herethough, because
Millon made a note about the differencesbetween the
malevolent antisocial andthe sadist. So he
wrote that the malevolent antisocialcan actually
understand guilt and remorseon a cognitive
level. They just don't necessarilyfeel it.
(01:41:15):
So they don't go past limitsthat aren't for
their own self interest,whereas the sadist
would do that in pursuit ofcruelty. Okay. So
yeah. So a lot of these darkertypes have similar
behavior, but we have to look at the core
motivations. So a malevolentantisocial is on
a quest for power. And ifthey have to violate
(01:41:35):
the rights of others in pursuitof that power,
they will absolutely doit. But the sadist
will violate the rights of othersfor the sake of
violating the rights ofothers. Like their
torture is the sadist's pleasure,the end goal.
Yes. But let's talk aboutour thoughts just
overall with these types. Whatare your thoughts?
Yeah, just briefly in theinterest of time, I
(01:41:56):
can see how the disorder levelis where it is,
but like, I'm also wondering what if disorderlevel is on a spectrum? Like,
do we have to be at a blatantviolation of others
rights to be at disorder level?What if it started
before? I don't know. I thinkwe'd find a lot more
slimy CEOs and politicians inthat moderate range,
(01:42:18):
but then again, it's like,is it disorder if
society deems them as usefulenough to keep them
around? You're right. It's confusing and
muddled. I do think it's importantto note that Millon,
again, says any subtype canbe at any level of
severity. So any one of thesesubtypes could be
severe enough to be disorderedor mild enough
(01:42:38):
to blend in and function. Sohis mild, moderate,
severe levels are probably where these
subtypes are more prone to fall,but any one of these
flavors can be healthier looking or more
disordered. Yeah. I mean, he wrotea chapter on 10 subtypes
of psychopathy. So he actuallyincluded three of
the ones that we just talkedabout and each were
(01:43:00):
in different level of severity.So the covetous
was the mild, risk-taking, moderate,and malevolent
severe. So to your point, the less severecan technically become psychopathically
disordered. Right. So who even knows the,
the antisocial type is proneto deviousness.
Just how devious and willthey get caught is
(01:43:20):
the question. Yep. You got it.Yeah. So of course,
these things are never straightforward.
People aren't; the study of peoplepersonality and
pathology really does existon a continuum. And
some personalities are more proneto disintegration
than others. This one in particularcan overlap
with dark personalities, whichputs them at further
(01:43:41):
risk of extremely problematicand otherwise
criminal behavior. So anyway,today, as we know,
we unpacked the subtypes fromhistory and Millon's six
antisocial subtypes. And I dohope that you'll tune
in for the rest of the series.Don't forget to
like subscribe, give us a shoutout. We've also
got blogs, visuals, and references that
coincide with each episode atwww.personalitycouch.com.
(01:44:05):
And if you're a providerlooking to consult
about a case, or if you're inneed of psychodynamic
therapy or a deep dive psychologicalevaluation, our
private practice, Quest Psychcan help with that.
I'll provide a link in theshow notes as always
be well, be kind. We'll seeyou next time on the
personality couch. This podcast is for
informational purposes only anddoes not constitute a
(01:44:27):
professional relationship.If you're in need of
professional help, pleaseseek out appropriate
resources in your area. Information about
clinical trends or diagnosesare discussed
in broad and universal terms and do notrefer to any specific person or case.
Welcome to the PersonalityCouch podcast where
we discuss all things personalityand clinical
practice. I'm your host, DocBok, and I'm here
with my co-host, Doc Fish.We are both licensed
clinical psychologists in private
practice. And today we are continuingour series on
antisocial personality disorder.Antisocial
(01:00:20):
is the countercultural personalitythat can be
prone to criminal behavior,but not always.
It actually comes in manyshapes and sizes
from the behavior of a psychopathto the quiet
defiance of Rosa Parks standingup to racism on
that Alabama bus. Antisocialas a personality
is vast. So we're going tounpack the different
(01:00:40):
flavors and subtypes of this personality,
including six by our favoritetheorist, Dr. Theodore
Millon. Let's dive in. Antisocialhas been a much
debated personality datingback as early as the
1800s. Researchers and cliniciansargued over
a few things, such as is antisocialan actual
standalone personality oris an antisocial
(01:01:04):
reaction a part of multiple typesof personalities?
Yeah. So basically asking is angst a
countercultural, rebelliousattitude? Like is that
its own personality construct or can any
personality be prone to theseantisocial tendencies?
Exactly. So they also arguedif antisocial is
(01:01:25):
a standalone personality, shouldthese types be
socially condemned, especiallygiven possible run
ins with the law? Right. Whichis so unfortunate.
And that brings me to thequestion, is it even
possible to take values andmorals aside when
considering this countercultural
personality? Like how do we judgewhat is acceptable in
(01:01:46):
society and what's not? Like who gets to
decide when countercultural typeshould be punished?
Like what is the line? Absolutely.That is a
burning question of mine aswell. Yeah. Which
we talked about in our lastepisode too, which
I'll link in the show notesbelow, but researchers
debated this too, not justus. And they actually
created names for antisocial,like moral insanity
(01:02:09):
or constitutionally inferior,and then changed
these names later to be lessvalue-laden. So using
terms like psychopathic stateand psychopathic
personality instead. This ofcourse led to arguing
over how the antisocial conditionstarts. Are
they born or are they made?And then from this
argument came (01:02:31):
are antisocials sociopaths or are
they psychopaths? Right. Ifthey're psychopaths,
which means born or originatingin the psyche,
then they're like born delinquent.Right. So
said a different way, theseantisocial types are
predisposed to break the lawand push boundaries
or so some thought. But conversely,if they're
(01:02:54):
sociopaths in the traditionalmeaning of the word,
not the way that we understandthe word to be
now, but in the traditionalmeaning of the word,
then society creates themby being traumatic
and awful and then rejectsthem all the same.
Right. And then no wonder there's a self-focusand a rejection of others, but
yes, only later did researchersstart to see
(01:03:14):
that not all antisocial typesare prone to criminal
behavior. In fact, most aren't.Some of the
most helpful research distinguishedbetween passive
and aggressive versions of this personality.Exactly. Yeah. So some of the earliest
researchers, so these were peoplelike Henderson,
Karpman, Schneider, and Wolmandivided antisocial
(01:03:37):
into actively criminal or aggressive and
then passively parasitic.Okay. So parasite,
like meaning like a parasite who lives offof a host, much like a con artist would.
Exactly. Yep. That's whatparasitic means. So
then Wolman in 1987 in particularsaid that,
while aggressive types aremore overtly violent,
(01:04:00):
the narcissistic parasitic triesto "win favors by
presenting themselves as victims of bad
luck, expecting the entire worldto act as a milk
giving mother." Oh goodness. That is so
interesting. It's like a manipulativething to get what they
want. And then that probablymeans they're also
prone to laziness. Absolutely.Yes. Yes. Living
(01:04:24):
off of a host, right? So someoneelse does the
work. They're kind of vulturesmaybe in that way,
picking at what the leftoversare. But anyway,
this begs the question, likewhat is a normal
antisocial personality anyway?And can it even
be normal? Sure. So Oldhamand Morris's normal
antisocial is labeled theadventurer. So not
(01:04:45):
bound to the same fears andanxieties as the
rest of us, living on the edge,challenging the
rules of life, you know, maybewalking on the moon,
breaking the sound barrier,crossing the oceans,
essentially living a thrillinggame against their
own mortality. Absolutely.Yeah. I imagine like
the Christopher Columbus typesor the entrepreneur
(01:05:06):
types that defy the oddsto take risks and
adventures to discover new worlds,new inventions,
like against all odds. Right.Exactly. Or the
types that maybe are firstresponders who aren't
afraid to run into a burningbuilding, maybe a
Navy seal who fearlessly goeson missions that defy
water and gravity that pushtheir endurance.
(01:05:29):
Absolutely. Yeah. So thesetypes at the normal
level are fearless boundarypushers who find an
adaptive way to use their strengthand sheer guts
in a way that benefits themselvesand society.
Yes. And then we have anothernormal personality.
So we have the unconventionalantisocial. So
they don't care about otherpeople's judgments
(01:05:50):
or the consequences of doingthings their own
way. Like they do what theywant. Yeah. They're
skeptical about other people'smotives and
often flirt with boundaries oftruth and law, adult
responsibilities in orderto pursue their own
self-interest. So they arevery independent and
can be creatively autonomous.Ooh, this is
interesting. Okay. So itsounds like these
(01:06:13):
dissenting antisocial have a pop of
narcissism in that they're lookingout for number one,
right? But not in a way thatis destructive or
maybe causes harm to others,but they are going
to have a bit of angst,perhaps maybe in a
way that's creative, but I'mcurious what your
thoughts are about thatDoc Fish. Like how
(01:06:34):
would these creative pursuitsbe different from the
normal antisocial that wejust talked about?
Sure. I think that they areso independent that
they find creative ways toget around things,
like depending on others.So it's not like an
artistic creative, but moreof like advanced
critical thinking, thinkingoutside of the box
(01:06:55):
to make sure that they are actually are
autonomous. Right. Okay. So thisisn't like a creative
genius person. This is likecreative in the
sense that they are making surethat they don't need
others and that they can keepthe control and
finding really crafty waysto do that is what
that means. And then their narcissismis just more
a self-focus, like they're self-motivatedand even
(01:07:17):
criticized by others as impulsive and
irresponsible. Millon notes thatthey "stretch the limit of
established social standardsand push forward by
means of sheer will by returningobstacles with
clever maneuvers or an aggressive and
intimidating posture." Okay. AndI can see how these types
would really dislike authority and be
(01:07:38):
confrontational, which wouldmake them great leaders
with decisive action and confidence.But I can
also see how they would rufflefeathers and rub
people the wrong way, but maybenot necessarily
in a pathological way, butmaybe in a way where
they're just maybe not everyone's cup of
tea, right? So too strong,too brash, too harsh.
(01:08:02):
I'm actually thinking of the Enneagram
here, shocker, right? Butthe Enneagram Type 8
would map onto this. It'snot a perfect match,
but I think most likely therewould be a fit there.
Would you agree? Oh, absolutely.Yeah. And I
think probably others react tothem in polarized ways,
kind of like either love themor hate them kind
(01:08:23):
of attitude. Totally. I totallysee that. Yes.
Okay. But now let's move toMillon's six subtypes.
So Millon actually notes thatall of the subtypes
are possible, but he onlyhighlights six. And
as a quick recap, he divideshis subtypes into
three severity categories. Somild, moderate, and
(01:08:44):
severe. Each category has twosubtypes for a total
of six. His first, the normalor the mild level,
we have the aggrandizing personality.So aggrandize
means to make even bigger, to make more
powerful. So because of thisrelationship to power,
aggrandizing types, thoughthey're normal, are
(01:09:05):
considered by others as pathological.In large
part, because these types, even at the
mildest level, are disruptors.Yeah. So I think we,
as a society, have difficultyunderstanding
any personality that goes againstthe current and
challenges what we deem as normal.So clinically,
this level is normal, but socially,I think most
(01:09:26):
people would consider abnormal and
pathological. So the bad thingsabout antisocial can be
sublimated into society ina way that's very
adaptive. So things like ambition,independence,
competition, risk-taking,decisiveness, right?
Those can work for societyand for themselves.
(01:09:47):
Their willpower is amazing.They are great at
overcoming things and theydo so independently.
They take charge, they'reassertive, they're
dominant. Yeah, these types,you don't mess with
these types, right? And I actuallywonder though,
if that dominance that's somuch a part of their
personality, do you think that'smaybe a way to
(01:10:07):
distract or fill an inner void?Oh, definitely.
Now they would deny thatthis void is even
present. Probably. I'm surethere's healthy
antisocials. But they makeit work for them,
whereas disordered antisocialfail to do so.
And essentially that inner void was likelycreated from deprivation in childhood.
(01:10:31):
Absolutely. Yeah, that'sa common theme that
I'm seeing with these typesis there's trauma,
significant trauma in childhood.But this would
make sense that they are takingmatters into their
own hands then. I'm in control.I can't trust
anyone to take care of me becausethey haven't,
so I need to be the one incharge. You got it.
But yeah, let's look at thosemild subtypes though.
(01:10:52):
So firstly, the covetously aggrandizing
type. Yeah, the core of thistype involves greedy
self-enhancement and thedesire to possess
and dominate, sometimes evencriminally. So like
thieves, manipulative businessmen who exploitothers for their own self-interest.
Oh my goodness. But holdup, hold up. Did I
(01:11:12):
hear you right that you saidcriminal here?
Yes. Okay. And this is the normal or themild level, right? According to Millon.
So how are we already at criminalbehavior? That's my question.
Right. And we are already coming up
against the line of what's normaland what's not.
So, and we don't know where that line is.
(01:11:32):
So other characteristics includebeing pushy,
self-centered, dissatisfied,envy is greedy, and
just enjoying taking over things.They feel like
life has deprived them of what they are
rightfully owed, like love andsupport and materials,
while others have more thanenough. So there's
envy. They want to take, evenif it means lying
(01:11:55):
or destroying. That envy, yeah, that envy
drives them. Wow. So I can seehow people would find
this mild type pathological,right? That type
of energy is really hard todeal with. And like I
said before, the childhoodtrauma part is a
really big piece of the antisocial'shistory and their
psychological makeup. So, andwhat I've read is
(01:12:18):
that many as children reportnot feeling loved.
Like that's sad. That is a reallytragic place to
start, right? So they are startingat this place
of emotional poverty. Andthen out of that is
this voracious appetite. Right.They are. And it
kind of reminds me of kiddoswho didn't have
access to food maybe. And thenthey focus on like taking
(01:12:40):
and taking and taking more, but these are
adults. Right. It's different.Yeah. So they are angry,
resentful, and revenge driven, like
manipulating others, like pawnsin their power game. Their
goal is to compensate forthe emptiness of
life rationalized by the assertionthat they alone
can restore the imbalancefated to them. So
(01:13:03):
there is a big self-reliancepiece. Like I alone can
make the changes because noone looked out for
me. Like I don't trust thatanyone has my best
interest in mind. So I takecharge. Exactly.
Exactly. But then the problemis that they are
never satisfied or feel that they've been
compensated enough. They feelempty and they're
(01:13:24):
insatiable. Like a self-centeredlion who's just
forever hungry, like literallya predator pursuing
prey. They won't ever haveenough and they are
not going to share. Wow. Yeah.So we all feel like
we're the pawns or the preyin their power vacuum
game. So I keep thinking like,no wonder this type
(01:13:45):
doesn't make friends super easilyor fit into the
social herd well. Sure. Sure.And there's a smug,
justified entitlement thatrationalize them to
take from others so they caneven be ostentatious
and display what they've takenas a form of power.
Wow. So like, like this, lookat me, like look at
(01:14:06):
this, but what might they showoff though? Like
I'm in my head, I'm picturinglike a lion parading
his prey around for othersto see. But like,
what, can you give me an exampleof what that would
look like? Yeah. Like anymaterials, so money,
house, car, et cetera. Aha.Now it is important
to note that this is very different from
(01:14:27):
narcissists who have a passive attitudeof entitlement and can
feel satisfied with possessionswhen it meets
their image needs. Okay. In contrast,the covetous,
aggrandizing personality,they are actively
exploitative to take thingsbecause of their
deep sense of emptiness andpowerful hunger for
(01:14:48):
love and stuff they just didn'tget in childhood.
Okay. It's like a kid saying, it's mine, myteddy bear, you can't have it. And then
shoving the kid who triedto take it for a
snuggle. And not only that, butprobably also taking
everybody else's teddy beartoo, because other
people got more than they did.Yeah. That envy,
back to that envy piece that drives their
(01:15:08):
behavior. Yeah. But in theinterest of time,
let's move to the next subtype, which isthe disaffected aggrandizing subtype.
Okay. So this is an interestingsubtype that
I think is a bit harder tounderstand. They're
oppositional, don't care aboutpleasing people.
They don't rely on others.They make decisions
without other people's input.When problems
(01:15:29):
happen, they see it and they actfast, but they focus on
their independence becausethey don't actually
want to conform to society atall. So they struggle
with abstract goals and theyprefer to work
physically for more visual,tangible outcomes.
And those outcomes need to happen as soon
as possible. Okay. All right.So hang on. I'm
(01:15:50):
already seeing that this typeis different from
the covetously aggrandizing,right? They don't
necessarily have that same goal-directedbehavior
is what I'm hearing. But instead,it's more of this
mindless action for immediategratification.
Sure. I think it's like theyhave so much energy
and they try to direct it somewhere,but they also
(01:16:11):
don't want to play by society'srules. Of course.
Yeah. So they can be veryimpatient and it's
possible that they take ontoo much too fast,
and then they're not ableto sustain it. Or
sometimes maybe they startsomething super
intensely, then fail to follow through.
Okay. So they're motivatedby newness and risk,
(01:16:31):
but then sometimes otherpeople view them as
making impulsive moves, butthey actually have
thought it out. Okay. That'sreally interesting.
So the risk-taking, adrenaline-seeking,movers,
doers, like I need to act,right? But that need
to act can look impulsive, butit's also just their
constant reward-seeking, right?I preemptively
(01:16:54):
want to say that this typeseems like it could
be prone to addiction, giventhat. And I'm
thinking that maybe the intermittentreinforcement of a
slot machine, like pull the lever, get an
outcome. Like if that's the waythat they live life,
are they more prone to dopamine-seekingand
addictions? Right. I thinkit's the newness.
(01:17:15):
So they're not going to pulla lever over and
over and over again, likethe rest of society.
They're going to figure outa way to make it
work for them, win, and thenfind a new thing.
So there's a conflict though, because
they're attracted to thingsthat aren't actually
achievable, like unconventional things,
adventurous things, but they'renot actually good at
functioning the way that they want to. Wow.And yet they're so self-focused and
(01:17:39):
uncompliant that they switchbetween this troubled
disaffection and a radicallyunpredictable action.
Oh my goodness. This soundsmiserable. Like it
sounds like their action, thatneed for immediate
gratification, that's notgoing to lead to a
fulfilling life, right? Maybethey're not able
(01:17:59):
to see the big picture andjust seek out the
novelty of it all, like the newness,the next shiny
thing, right? But in my headwith the newness
shiny thing, I'm also wondering,is this type
perhaps prone to multiplepartners because of
that novelty? Interesting. Perhaps,but they also
don't rely on people anddon't really care
(01:18:21):
about pleasing other people.So I can't imagine that
they're going to be super emotionallyconnected
to begin with. Of course, ofcourse. Yeah. Now,
they can really focus on theirdissatisfaction
and disappointments, beingdisillusioned with
the self and others, leadingthem to withdraw
into themselves, be irritable,contrary, and possess
(01:18:42):
a venturesome, constructiveself-determination.
I'm just imagining like a tornado.This type sounds
a little bit like a tornado, like
destructive, it's haphazard. Butit does make me wonder,
like this mindless action that you're
describing, what is their endgoal? It sounds like the
(01:19:02):
covetously aggrandizing type,the one we just
talked about, is the typeto start their own
business because maybe theydon't like that
their boss has more money, right?They're envious,
but they have the chops tosee it through and
make it successful. But thenthe disaffected type,
the one we're talking aboutnow, would maybe be
drawn to the newness of startinga business and
(01:19:23):
a new idea, but maybe not havethe chops to see
it through and maybe complainabout it afterwards.
Maybe. I think that theywould definitely be
drawn to the newness and riskof starting a business.
They may not see it throughbecause they start
five at once maybe, or theybecome disillusioned
with the rules of running it, like taxes,
(01:19:43):
permits, load of poop. Society isway too controlling for
them and they reject it. Right.I see. Yeah. Yeah.
That's that antisocial againstsocial norms. And to
run a business, you haveto play by some set
of rules. So these aggrandizingtypes are a bit
difficult to understand inthat they appear
(01:20:04):
pathological in a lot of ways,but at the normal
level, they're really notlike they're just
angsty and ruthless self-referencing,but it's not
necessarily diagnostic. I thinkso. They're less
overt in their antisocial behaviors.Yeah. I see
that. Yeah. I agree becauseit does get worse. It
does get worse. So with that,I think we need to
(01:20:25):
move on to the moderate levelwhere we have two
subtypes. Again, we have therisk taking devious
and the reputation defendingdevious. So the
overall defining feature hereis that both types
can disintegrate if their efforts are
unsuccessful and socially rejected,requiring more devious
ways of obtaining theirneeds. Exactly. So
(01:20:47):
if not successful and socially supported,
the aggrandized personalitiescan disintegrate
into more problematic levelsand devious means
being more impulsive, irresponsible, nonconforming,and just causing trouble.
So as their competence deteriorates,their
behaviors become more sociallyunacceptable,
and then they become moreovertly antisocial.
(01:21:10):
Interestingly, incarcerationis not actually
helpful, but actually increases their
deviousness. Oh, that is so interesting.Yeah. So antisocials
are also prone to slippinginto more severe
versions of themselves ifthis high need for
gratification and independenceare not met. So
they will keep pushing the envelopemore and more
(01:21:33):
and more to meet those needs,which could mean
interfering with the law. Right.Okay. So we'll
start first with the risk taking devious
subtype, which overlaps with histrionicand turbulent
features and is described byMillon as impulsive,
unreflective, fearless, bold,audacious, reckless,
and uninhibited. Oh my word.Okay. So if this
(01:21:57):
type is overlapping with histrionicpersonality,
I imagine there's a lot ofenergy here. Not that
this type doesn't have a lotof energy to begin
with, but maybe there's an attention
seeking component or maybe there'shighs and lows
coinciding with energy expenditure.Yeah. I don't
think that they necessarilydesire attention like
the histrionic, but theydo need stimulation
(01:22:19):
and activity. Okay. So maybemore like a hyper-
activeness or like a manic-yenergy. Okay. So
it has more to do with energythan attention here.
So energy and dopamine, likethat makes sense.
Hypomanic or manic-like energyin pursuit of the
antisocial things. Yes. Andso these types are
(01:22:40):
thrill seekers needing excitementand stimulation.
They're unfazed by danger,pursuing like legit
perilous adventures and gamblingwith life in
search of just trying to feelalive. Oh, oh, so
they hold on. They don't feelalive is what you're
saying. Well, remember howantisocials need more
stimulation? Yeah. So theirsympathetic nervous
(01:23:03):
system needs a much higherinput to achieve an
excitement level. So think abouthow activated an
antisocial child is goingto be in a constant,
dangerous, neglectful environment.Right. So their
brain is wired to need more.Their childhood was
colored with neon markers becausethey're trying
to survive. And then now they'rewalking around
(01:23:24):
as adults feeling like thecolors of the world
are muted. So then they do things like
skydiving, drag racing, jumpinginto a pool from a hotel
balcony. Oh, holy smokes. Yeah.Dopamine, right?
To feel some sense of alivenessor safety. Like
it's replicating the neonhighlighter from
childhood, right? These big, bold things.
(01:23:48):
Definitely. Wow. So to otherpeople, it seems
like silly and not courageous.They don't control
their behaviors. They act beforethinking. They
don't care about consequencesif they even think
about them. There's actuallya case in Millon's
book where a man, "hasa death wish he tries
to sell as a quest for theultimate life." Huh.
(01:24:09):
And then even at events withothers doing similar
things like drag racing andstuff, like he'd get
kicked out for being too extreme.Oh my. And he
reportedly stated,"You have to have a
hint of death in your life forexistence to be truly
savory." What in the world?Okay. Living on the
(01:24:29):
edge, right? But then I question,is this a counter
move because they're tryingto feel alive? So they
have to tempt fate and deathto feel that aliveness?
Right. And I think that's the other part
because like, how powerful areyou if you're not even
scared of death or like howstrong are you if
you don't even blink an eyeat the possibility of
(01:24:52):
fatality? Like how nonconforming?Yes. And then
also the antisocial part isthe neglect of others
in pursuing their excitementbecause they're
irresponsible, unempathetic,not at all dependable.
Right. Yeah. So they're going to bulldoze
others in the process. Yes. Theydo not want to feel
trapped or burdened, suffocated or
(01:25:12):
constrained by responsibilitiesor routine or boredom.
Goodness. Or even the needsof a relationship,
right? I can't, this is mebeing biased here,
but I can't imagine being married to thistype who's always risking death. Like
your spouse would not beokay with that, but
I don't know how many personalitieswould be.
I can see a lot of marital conflict inthese types because of that.
(01:25:37):
I mean, maybe some individuals find each otherand become like adventure couples.
Maybe. But otherwise there's probablyno tying down this antisocial.
Okay. So maybe they might even have
difficulty committing to a long-termrelationship.
Possible. Oh, interesting. Okay.
So now we have the reputation defending
(01:25:59):
devious subtype, which overlapswith narcissistic and
sadistic features. Ooh.
Yeah. So remember the covetous type one's materials,risk taking one's stimulation,
and now the reputation defendingone's status.
Okay. Yeah. I'm already seeing that
narcissism overlap here already.And then if we have
sadistic features popping up,this can't be good
(01:26:22):
because sadistic is findingpleasure in harming
others. Exactly. The reputation defending
type becomes someone like notto be trifled with,
wanting others to see themas infallible, tough,
powerful, brave, invincible,unbreakable, like not
to be conquered, always to be respected,
strong. You can't actuallypush them around.
(01:26:44):
I see that. Yeah.
They're overreactive, disliked, sometimes
ruminating on the negative andhaving an outburst
or sometimes just erupting intensely,
intimidatingly, they're threateningand posturing.
Oh, this is not my idea of a bestie.
Yeah. Yeah. They defend the reputation,
not always in hostility.So some are loners,
(01:27:06):
some might be in gangs, someare aggressive
leaders and alphas and dominantsat the top of the pack.
Sometimes they can be violent, which isthe sadistic part. They can actually
engage in violence or terrorism, feeling
like they are the victim andthen thus feeling
justified in their counter actions. Okay.
So question, are we moreprone to criminal
(01:27:27):
behavior here with thistype? Like I can't
help but think if we're bringingin the sadistic
features, we would have to be. I wouldthink so. If in the correct position,
they might just get away with trampling everybodyelse on their way up to the top.
I'm thinking a business person,right? Or I
don't know, what other professionmight we find this
type? Oh goodness. I mean, probably Wall
Street, business, politics,militia, I mean,
(01:27:51):
criminally gangs, mafias. Absolutely. All
the usual hiding places forthe narcissists,
paranoid and antisocial,no surprise, right?
But also, can this type havefriends? Like,
this is me being biased andI recognize that
because I struggle with thistype, but like,
who would befriend this type? Maybe otherswho have a similar angsty mindset?
(01:28:13):
Yeah, maybe more submissive or paranoidtypes who want to follow their path,
but not actually fight at the forefront.
Okay. So maybe people whohave similar aims
and don't mind pushing otherpeople around under
a stronger leader, maybe, whichwould then take me
to gangs or groups that oppress other
people. But then outside of gangs,like, do certain
(01:28:36):
personalities flock to thistype of person
because this is, again, thisis me being biased
and I recognize that, butyour average person
is not necessarily going tobe attracted to this,
right? Like, unless they're pathological.
Okay. Well, okay. So thereare personalities
that are attracted to powerand dominance and
(01:28:56):
status and the like. Sure.So opposites attract,
pathology attracts pathology. This is so
true. Yeah. So some types seethe good in everyone
and they think, Oh, this personjust needs love.
Like love can make them better.I'll rescue you.
Yeah. Yeah. So is this type that as a
(01:29:17):
reputation defending type, arethey defending their ego
for power? Certainly thisis certainly not a
popularity contest. So whatis their version
of a reputation that they are defending?
Power. Yeah. No, they want power.And then if they
have it, no one else can challenge them. Sothey get the status and the reputation,
(01:29:39):
then they have all the control.I see. Okay. But
still we are not at disorderlevel, right? Yeah.
That's wild to me. The linefor disorder is
just not clear. I know. I know.And I struggle with
that. But as I've been saying this whole
series, I do struggle with thistype. So my own biases
and judgment come in. I'mnot Millon, but I
(01:30:00):
would have put disorder furtherup the line,
but maybe he sees somethingI don't. And maybe
he doesn't have the same biasedlens that I do here.
Possibly. I mean, for myself,I would have
to assess the line on a caseby case basis. So
still not sure where the lineswould be. Yeah.
And I struggle with that, thatthere isn't a clear
line, right? Cause this butts up against
(01:30:21):
morality and judgment and philosophyand psychology and
all the things. Yeah. I think,I mean, they have
a place in the world. I'm notsure. I personally don't
desire to be friends withthem. If they're
too much energy, I do havethat respect for the
antisocial. Of course. Ofcourse. Yeah. But as
we talked about earlier, they'renot going to be
everybody's cup of tea. Right.Yeah. And to
(01:30:42):
your point, every personalitydoes have a place
in this world, just like aCrayola box full of
all the colors. We need allthe colors, right?
But not every personality is going to be
your bestie. Right. So yes,I do think that the
moderate subtypes though are easier to
understand than the mild ones becausetheir motives seem
clearer and their antisocialnessseems more
overt. Yeah. I can see that.Yeah. And it puts them
(01:31:05):
closer to the problematic behavior and
personality disintegration as a result.Definitely. So these
moderate types can disintegrateeasily due to
social rejection. And so withthat, let's move
on to the severe level, whichmeans we might
be antisocial personalitydisorder territory.
I think so. Yep. So at thatdisorder level,
(01:31:27):
antisocials withdraw or turnaggressive towards
society only focused on theirown self-interest
and definitely not focusedon others. So they're
previously antisocial and maybe socially unacceptableacting out, then turns into a
pervasive lifestyle. So here we have the
(01:31:47):
nomadic antisocial and the malevolentantisocial.
Yeah. Almost opposites. Yes.So the nomadic
antisocial subtype showcasesschizoid and avoidant
features. They are less focusedon active revenge,
but they still have that deepanger and resentment
stemming from previous rejection,disappointment,
and injustices suffered. Theyjust want to detach
(01:32:09):
and go away from the socialworld, rejecting
responsibilities of societylike work, taking
care of a house, havinga family, all that
stuff. Yeah. Yeah. But stillthis doesn't sound
pathological so far. And inmy head, I'm going
certainly not with schizoidin here. How can that
be more sinister than sadisticfeatures? It's
(01:32:29):
coming. The schizoid is justthe flavor. There's
still an antisocial core inthere. Of course.
Just like I always say, personalitiesare like
gobstoppers. What's on theoutside layers is not
necessarily what's at the core.So you're saying
they are very dark on theinside, but one of
those outer layers couldbe more of a turtle
(01:32:49):
or more of a schizoid withinan antisocial.
Yeah. Yeah, possibly. There'sactually like a
passive asociality in shedding all those responsibilities,focusing only on basic
survival. So they literally roam, like
wander, drift. Sometimes they'rehomeless. They're
functioning on the outskirtsof society. Yeah.
Internally, usually unconsciouslytoo, they feel
(01:33:11):
abandoned, unwanted, ostracized, cursed,
ill-fated, with a mood centeringon doom and invincibility.
Ooh, doom and invincibility. Those are twowords you don't typically hear together.
So they wander from placeto place focusing
on survival. Like maybethey feel hopeless
about it all, but how inthe world does that
(01:33:34):
go along with invincibility?Well, I think they
feel invincible because theyare genuinely good
at surviving and adaptingto hard situations.
But then on the inside, there's like this
sense of doom, kind of anxiety.Sure. All right. So
homelessness means not being tied down toanything or anyone, not a home, family,
(01:33:56):
taxes, anything that encumbers.I will say
here, side note, I don't believethat most people
experiencing homelessness are antisocial,likely not, but it does happen with some
antisocials as we're talkingabout here. Yeah.
And I don't think that they feellike they fit into
society anyway. They defendthemselves then by
detaching and coping with feelinglike a misfit
(01:34:19):
by focusing on their own independence.
Millon actually noted that someadopted children
become nomadics in their wandering
search for natural parentsor like a true home.
Oh, that is really interesting.Yeah. And then I
like this quote by Millon. So"The sense of being
no place is both similar toand different from
(01:34:41):
the experience of depersonalization.Nomadics appear
vaguely disconnected fromreality, possess no
clear sense of self and seemto be transients
both within the self and their
environment." Ooh, that is so interesting.So they are
restless wanderers searchingfor home. And
(01:35:02):
what I'm hearing is they'realmost dissociative.
Which might be the schizoid part. Yes.Yes. Okay. So disconnected,
detached from society, thedisconnection and
detachment are words we oftenuse with schizoid.
But I'm still going, howare these types at
disorder level? I don't understandthat this
does not feel problematicyet, especially in
(01:35:24):
comparison to the other typesthat we've mentioned
and we're supposed to be in disorder territory.So help me understand that.
Well, remember any subtype can be at any
severity level, so they don't haveto be disordered, but
Millon placed them here. Okay.So for his example,
he said they're still antisocial.They still have
that deep resentment and hostilityand desire for
(01:35:45):
pleasure, especially sexually.And so if provoked
or using substances, they canact out in a very
impulsive predatory like way,such as physically
or sexually assaulting weakerothers, mostly
who aren't likely to fightback strongly. Oh,
dear. So they can be prone to being a
predator, prostitution, alcoholism,those things.
(01:36:07):
Okay. Yep. And here's wherewe have the issue,
right? Now we're not justpushing back against
norms or being a criminalnuisance. Like now
we're potentially violatingothers' rights.
That's disorder level. That'sa no-go. Therein
lies the darkness of the antisocialact against
the schizoids passiveness. Ah ha. So a schizoidwould, I'll say almost never,
(01:36:31):
violate the rights of others, especially
sexually. But you take theschizoid-y, detached,
loner piece, add in the feelingsof rejection
and vindictiveness of the avoidant,you stir it all
up with antisocial angstand acting out. And
there you have a character atthe disorder level,
but it goes darker. It alwaysdoes. Yes. Okay.
(01:36:54):
So that leads us to the lastof the severe types,
the malevolent antisocial.Okay. Bring it on.
All right. So the malevolentantisocial subtype
showcases sadistic and paranoidfeatures. Millon
uses some pretty strong adjectivesto describe
this subtype, like belligerent,predatory,
vicious, brutal, callous,vengeful, guiltless,
(01:37:16):
and hostile with a chip on the shoulder
attitude and a readiness to lashout at all times. Wow.
They are motivated by theunjustness of their
childhood mistreatments, likereal or perceived.
Yeah. And then they've learnedthat imminent
attacks and betrayals from othersare a constant.
My goodness. So having sadistic,antisocial, and
(01:37:39):
paranoid pieces together soundlike a recipe for
disaster and the makings of a very
dangerous character. So we havesome of the darkest
personalities all wrapped up into one. So sadistic,again, meaning finding pleasure
in hurting others. Paranoidsmean they attack
first before they're attacked.And then antisocial
(01:37:59):
means angsty and manipulative.So this person
sounds like, honestly, they'reon their way to
prison. I mean, there is ahigher probability
of that if they get caught.Always. Right. I'm
thinking like any tenderness, including
empathy, by others is rejectedbecause the antisocial
thinks it's a plot to deceivethem. They do
not trust other people. Theyhave adopted a cold
(01:38:21):
blooded ruthlessness in theirpursuit for revenge
and retribution. So they obviouslyreject any of
their own weakness and submission,focusing on
proving their own strength.And so then they may
flirt with danger or punishment,which makes
them feel like they're treatedunjustly, which then
turns into a cycle. A cycle.Yep. So then with
(01:38:43):
more power, they actually becomemore brutal to
keep supporting their strong,powerful self
image. Good grief. So more powermeans it ups the ante
and the need for more andmore and more power.
It's that voracious appetitethat we talked about
before, right? It's insatiable.It's never enough
(01:39:05):
power. And then using that powerto exploit others
and then projecting theirown weakness onto
others. I actually imaginethat some of the
most notorious world leadersfrom history had a
similar personality profile,basically getting
drunk on their own power while oppressing
the very people they wereelected to serve.
(01:39:25):
I mean, I've read many a thingthat mentioned
paranoid, antisocial andsadistic flavors in
psychopathy. Yeah, absolutely. That's a
conversation for another day. Oh,absolutely. Lots of places
we could go with that and weare prepared to go
there. So we do have anotherepisode in the works
of antisocial versus psychopathy.What's the
actual difference? Subscribeso you don't miss it.
(01:39:47):
That's going to be a real good one. Okay.
Well, let's sum this up and talkabout the sadistic
part. So we can see paranoidfeatures in the
suspiciousness and hostility.We can see the
sadistic features and feelings of being
deprived, which results in wantingcompensation and
retribution in the form of cruelty. The
antisocial core is found inthe desire to destroy,
(01:40:09):
which results in hateful pushback against
normal social roles. So theirbehaviors can become
ridiculously antisocial withoutempathy, honestly,
like an arrogant contempt forthe rights of others.
Yeah. So these types are suspiciousand hostile
towards others. When they feelthat they have been
slighted, then they go ona revenge rampage.
(01:40:32):
So pushing against norms,rules of the land,
and stepping on the rightsof others. So I
am curious though, in whatother profession
might we find these types aside from professionalcriminals and politicians, right?
Oh boy. Maybe lawyers. I feel likeit would serve them well.
Uh-huh. Right. So the types that would defendthe criminals and the politicians,
(01:40:53):
like they work together like a burning
house. That's true. Okay. Okay.Let me put another
interesting nugget in herethough, because
Millon made a note about the differencesbetween the
malevolent antisocial andthe sadist. So he
wrote that the malevolent antisocialcan actually
understand guilt and remorseon a cognitive
level. They just don't necessarilyfeel it.
(01:41:15):
So they don't go past limitsthat aren't for
their own self interest,whereas the sadist
would do that in pursuit ofcruelty. Okay. So
yeah. So a lot of these darkertypes have similar
behavior, but we have to look at the core
motivations. So a malevolentantisocial is on
a quest for power. And ifthey have to violate
(01:41:35):
the rights of others in pursuitof that power,
they will absolutely doit. But the sadist
will violate the rights of othersfor the sake of
violating the rights ofothers. Like their
torture is the sadist's pleasure,the end goal.
Yes. But let's talk aboutour thoughts just
overall with these types. Whatare your thoughts?
Yeah, just briefly in theinterest of time, I
(01:41:56):
can see how the disorder levelis where it is,
but like, I'm also wondering what if disorderlevel is on a spectrum? Like,
do we have to be at a blatantviolation of others
rights to be at disorder level?What if it started
before? I don't know. I thinkwe'd find a lot more
slimy CEOs and politicians inthat moderate range,
(01:42:18):
but then again, it's like,is it disorder if
society deems them as usefulenough to keep them
around? You're right. It's confusing and
muddled. I do think it's importantto note that Millon,
again, says any subtype canbe at any level of
severity. So any one of thesesubtypes could be
severe enough to be disorderedor mild enough
(01:42:38):
to blend in and function. Sohis mild, moderate,
severe levels are probably where these
subtypes are more prone to fall,but any one of these
flavors can be healthier looking or more
disordered. Yeah. I mean, he wrotea chapter on 10 subtypes
of psychopathy. So he actuallyincluded three of
the ones that we just talkedabout and each were
(01:43:00):
in different level of severity.So the covetous
was the mild, risk-taking, moderate,and malevolent
severe. So to your point, the less severecan technically become psychopathically
disordered. Right. So who even knows the,
the antisocial type is proneto deviousness.
Just how devious and willthey get caught is
(01:43:20):
the question. Yep. You got it.Yeah. So of course,
these things are never straightforward.
People aren't; the study of peoplepersonality and
pathology really does existon a continuum. And
some personalities are more proneto disintegration
than others. This one in particularcan overlap
with dark personalities, whichputs them at further
(01:43:41):
risk of extremely problematicand otherwise
criminal behavior. So anyway,today, as we know,
we unpacked the subtypes fromhistory and Millon's six
antisocial subtypes. And I dohope that you'll tune
in for the rest of the series.Don't forget to
like subscribe, give us a shoutout. We've also
got blogs, visuals, and references that
coincide with each episode atwww.personalitycouch.com.
(01:44:05):
And if you're a providerlooking to consult
about a case, or if you're inneed of psychodynamic
therapy or a deep dive psychologicalevaluation, our
private practice, Quest Psychcan help with that.
I'll provide a link in theshow notes as always
be well, be kind. We'll seeyou next time on the
personality couch. This podcast is for
informational purposes only anddoes not constitute a
(01:44:27):
professional relationship.If you're in need of
professional help, pleaseseek out appropriate
resources in your area. Information about
clinical trends or diagnosesare discussed
in broad and universal terms and do notrefer to any specific person or case.
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