May 5, 2026 • 28 mins
🎬In this episode of the Personality Couch Podcast, we (licensed clinical psychologists Doc Bok and Doc Fish) explore the complex distinctions between antisocial personality and psychopathy, delving into historical terminology, key theories, and nuanced subtypes. This episode offers a deep dive into dark personality traits and how they differ.
⚠️Note: this podcast does not constitute a professional relationship. If you're in need of professional help, please seek out appropriate resources in your area. ⚠️
Chapters 00:00 Intro & History of Antisocial vs Psychopathy 00:36 Psychopath and Sociopath Defined 01:54 Cleckley’s Mask of Sanity 03:21 Psychodynamic Theory on Psychopathy vs Antisocial 04:17 The DSM on Psychopathy vs Antisocial 04:35 Michael Stone’s Negative Personality Spectrum 05:15 Level 1: Negative Personalities 05:41 Level 2: Narcissistic & Paranoid Personality Disorders 07:10 Level 3: Malignant Narcissism 08:43 Level 4: Antisocial Personality Disorder 09:28 Level 5: Psychopathy 10:20 Level 6: Sadistic Personality 12:32 Robert Hare's Psychopathy Checklist 13:54 Hare’s Psychopathy Checklist vs DSM Antisocial 17:20 Millon’s Theory on Psychopathy 19:30 Spineless Psychopath 19:43 Unprincipled Psychopath (Narcissistic Core) 19:51 Disingenuous Psychopath (Histrionic Core) 21:13 Risk-Taking Psychopath (Histrionic & Antisocial Features) 21:26 Covetous Psychopath (Antisocial Core) 21:57 Malignant Psychopath (Paranoid Core) 22:10 Abrasive Psychopath (Negativistic & Paranoid Features) 22:21 Explosive Psychopath (Sadistic Core, Borderline Features) 22:58 Malevolent Psychopath (Paranoid & Sadistic Features) 23:34 Tyrannical Psychopath (Negativistic & Sadistic Features) 24:19 Our Thoughts 27:14 Summary & Conclusion
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(00:00):
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,where we discuss all things personality.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, herewith my co-host, Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinical psychologists
in private practice, and today we are
continuing our series on antisocialpersonality disorder.
Antisocial is the counterculturaland often
criminal personality that canshow up in many places.
(00:23):
But what sets antisocial apartfrom psychopathy?
Are they the same thing? Sometheorists thought
so, while others, like RobertHare, didn't.
Let's unpack the controversyand our thoughts.
Historically, psychopath orpsychopathy meant
something totally differentthan it does today.
Psychopath in the late 1800sbasically was
(00:44):
a question of, "Does theperson's pathology
originate in the psyche, or does society
make them this way?" So ifthey're born with it,
the condition is psychopathic.And then if
society makes them, the conditionis sociopathic.
Now not too long after that, the term psychopathicthen became a catch-all term
(01:05):
for personality disorders,meaning that the
personality dysfunction originatesin the psyche.
And of course, there was a ton of stigma
around personality dysfunction,especially the types
prone to criminal mischief.We used pejorative
terms like moral insanityand constitutionally
inferior to describe them.Yeah, we sure did.
(01:27):
Yeah, so to quell this stigma,we then overcorrected
and started calling thosewith personality
conditions sociopaths or thosewith sociopathy,
meaning society made themthis way. And then
what followed was essentiallya tug of war between
calling personality disorder sociopathic
or psychopathic, as theywere trying to take
(01:49):
value-laden labels out of the naming process,and no one could agree. Until,
Cleckley came on the scenein 1941 with his
famous book, The Mask of Sanity,to try to clear
up the trashcan term thatpsychopathic and
sociopathic had become. Researchersthen appreciated
his clarification of psychopathic traits, aswell as his assertion that these types
(02:13):
are found not only in prisons,but in some of
society's most powerful andrespected roles.
Politicians, businessmen, entrepreneurs,scientists, doctors.
Yeah, the usual suspects.And he said that the
successful types, "keepup a far better and
more consistent outward appearanceof being
(02:34):
normal. The chief difference liesperhaps in whether the
mask or facade of health is extended intosuperficial material success."
Hence the book name, Mask of Sanity.Like, how good is the mask?
Bingo, yeah. So, Cleckley'sgroundbreaking
work set the stage for RobertHare's Psychopathy
(02:58):
Checklist in the 1970s, whichwe'll get more
into in a bit. However, theredid seem to be a split
in that some theorists believedthat psychopath
was the same thing as the antisocialpersonality
that we know now, while otherssaid the terms are
different, with psychopathybeing the more severe
(03:18):
version or even more severethan antisocial.
Right. Psychopathic and antisocialpersonality
is like the same in psychodynamicpersonality
literature. There is no antisocialpersonality,
just psychopathic, which antisocialfalls under.
So the PDM authors noted, "Weprefer the earlier
term psychopathic to thecurrent antisocial.
(03:40):
Many people with psychopathicpersonalities are not
obviously antisocial. Thatis, they're not
observably at odds with socialnorms. In fact,
many people with psychopathicpersonalities
are able to pursue theiragendas in contexts
of social approval and even admiration."
Uh-huh. I love that quote. Yeah.Positions of approval
(04:01):
or admiration like Wall Street, politics,
entrepreneurs, world leaders,the types that
are drawn to powerful positionsand either are
admired for it or hated, orthey're polarizing
when they're a little of both.So also the DSM
doesn't use psychopathic, butit did use a similar
(04:22):
term in its first editions.So sociopathic
personality disturbance was in the DSM-I,
and it later became antisocialpersonality
disorder in the DSM-III. Mm-hmm.Then we also
have Michael Stone, who's a forensic
psychiatrist. And in 2018, he cameup with a dark spectrum of
(04:43):
personalities that place psychopathyas more severe
than antisocial. Yes, he did.Yeah. And I think we
should unpack his work firstbecause I think it's
personally the most helpfulin understanding the
nuances between antisocialand psychopathy.
Absolutely. Let's go. Okay.So Stone's spectrum
is a range, capturing more than just
(05:04):
antisocial and psychopathy. Hisnegative spectrum of
personality has six components,with each level
getting progressively worse.Mm-hmm. So let's start
at the beginning. So level oneis simply negative
personality. So those who haveseverely negative
traits like being abrasive,deceitful, tactless,
aggressive, cruel, or malicious.Yeah. Your jerks
(05:26):
are the world, what I callthe prickly porcupine
people. So we like to callthis dusk in terms of
personality darkness. Thesetypes probably
aren't going to murder you, butthey're really, really
irritating and they can justmake your life
miserable. Sure. Sure. Andthen level two is
severe personality disorders, including
narcissistic and paranoid personalitydisorders.
(05:48):
So narcissistic personality disorder
involves a tendency to be self-important,entitled,
exploitative, envious, andarrogant with a need
for admiration. They believethey're special and
fantasize of unlimited success,which sets them
up for risky, yucky behaviors.And then they can
also have decreased, intermittent,or even just a
lack of empathy. Yeah. So youraverage narcissist
(06:11):
won't kill you unless theirpersonality is mixed
with other dark traits, whichis yet to come. So
stay tuned. They're just killingyour self-esteem
and your sense of normalcy.They're toxic. Yeah.
Right. Right. And then inthe second level, we
also have those with paranoidpersonality disorder.
So these types believe without evidence
that others are out to getthem. They like to
(06:31):
read neutral statements and events as
demeaning or threatening becausethey think that others
are dangerous. They don'tconfide in anybody
because they fear it will beused against them.
Yeah. And then they unjustifiably doubt theloyalty of others, at times experiencing
pathological jealousy as they suspect
infidelity of their partner, butagain, without evidence.
(06:53):
So they hold grudges and areready to counter
attack as they believe thatthey should attack
first or risk being attacked.But the three
most dangerous criteria thatwe just listed are the
pathological jealousy, thegrudge holding, and
the vindictiveness. Which movesus into level three.
So that's malignant narcissism.So malignant
(07:15):
narcissism is a core of narcissism,but it adds
antisocial behavior, sadism or aggressive
flavor, and then paranoid features.It originated from
Kernberg who identified thatcore narcissism,
but he noted that there waslike a worse form
of narcissism that pulls in those other
dangerous traits. So less dangerousforms of narcissism
(07:38):
might be like the egocentricsuperstar who's
always right and brilliantand focused on image.
She's super annoying and not great to bearound, but she's not malignant.
Yeah. So a malignant form ofnarcissism involves
self-focusedness or image maintenanceplus paranoid
suspiciousness that othersare out to get them,
(08:00):
and then aggressiveness or sadismand a desire to
harm others and then actuallyacting out of
those antisocial behaviors, oftenby breaking the law.
So an example maybe is aworld leader whose
self-focus is nauseating. Plusthey find their allies
threatening and then worry about being
destroyed by them. So then theybully others under their
(08:22):
leadership and then threatento harm their people
or other countries as a way towin favor and control.
Right, right. So this has escalated fromthe annoying narcissistic superstar.
Like the malignant narcissistsays other negative
pieces that make them especiallydark and they're
often drawn to positions of powerto bolster their image.
(08:42):
Right on. Yeah. So level four is where we
finally get to antisocial personalitydisorder.
So antisocial personalitydisorder means that
we have all of the previouscharacteristics that
are mentioned like malignantnarcissism, negative
traits, that pop of paranoia,but the core piece
of this personality is antisocial.So this means
(09:02):
that they disregard the rightsof others in society
which can lead to criminal behavior.
Right. And I think it's helpfulto understand
that malignant narcissists canengage in antisocial
behavior, but all antisocial personalitiesinclude the self-focused narcissism.
Absolutely. All dysfunctionalpersonalities
(09:23):
have that heaping dose of narcissismas the first
ingredient. So then we'reat level five, which
is psychopathy. Now, importantly,this is worse
than antisocial per Stone's research. So withinpsychopathy, Stone differentiates
non-violent and violent psychopathy. So
non-violent psychopathy may overlapwith the passive
(09:44):
parasitic psychopath or basically like a
con artist who preys on otherswithout empathy
in pursuit of his own self-interest.Yeah. So
parasitic, think parasite,the types that just
leech off of others, but aren'tovertly aggressive,
but they will con you out ofmoney or find ways to
satisfy their greed withoutmurdering you.
(10:05):
Yes. And then we have psychopathywith violence,
which may overlap with theaggressive psychopath
being more impulsive, aggressive,and assaultive,
AKA more susceptible to being,you know, violent.
Right. Yeah. But we're stillnot at the worst of
the worst yet. Level sixis the worst of the
worst. And that is sadisticpersonality. Right.
(10:25):
So sadism is not akin tosexual sadism. It's
a trait and it can be a corepersonality. So
sadistic personalities achievedominance through
cruelty. They humiliate others.They take pleasure
in others suffering. They lieto harm others and
they may intimidate othersto get them to obey.
They're excessively controllingand they may
(10:47):
be fascinated by violence,weapons, martial
arts, injury, or torture.No, thank you. Yeah.
For these types, harm to othersis the name of their
game. Anything else, be itpower, ego cookies,
the like, is just an added bonusbecause they thrive
on harming others. Yes. Andthen within this
(11:08):
level, Stone notes sadism withterrorism is the
worst from his continuum onlybecause the number of
victims and deaths are oftenhigher. Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. So a sadist is goingto have psychopathic
features, malignant narcissism,antisocial traits,
and elements of paranoia. Andthey all can go hand
(11:29):
in hand, but it's what is atthe personality core
that makes all the difference.So I also want to
say if you found Stone's Spectruminteresting and
are looking for more, I recommendepisode 27,
What's Worse Than a Narcissist: the Baddest of Them All. (11:41):
undefined
We get into the details there. So I will
link that in the show notesand on YouTube.
If dark personalities areyour jam. Yes. And
then one more note aboutsadistic or sadism.
Yeah. Millon notes that sadistic is a
separate personality constructfrom antisocial. The
PDM and psychodynamic literature also has
(12:04):
sadistic personalities listedas separate from
psychopathic. And remember,psychopathic and
antisocial are one in the samein psychodynamic.
Right. And then the DSM actuallyused to have a
sadistic personality in theappendix of the DSM
III-R, but it wasdropped in the DSM
IV. Of course it was. Yeah.We don't talk about that
stuff. Nope. We don't talkabout personalities
(12:25):
that dark in the DSM. So we juststop at antisocial
personality on the spectrum.But I do want to
move to Robert Hare's work becausehe is a household
name now with the conceptof psychopathy. So
let's go there. Okay. All right.So as we mentioned
earlier, Hare used Cleckley's work and
created the Hare PsychopathyChecklist in the 1970s.
(12:47):
And it has since been revised.So for short, it's
now called the PCL-R. So thePCL-R consists of 20
items and it's utilized asa semi-structured
interview. And then you haveto have a score of
at least 30 out of 40 tomeet the cutoff for
psychopathy. Throughout theresearch, there used
to be two things that the questions
(13:07):
essentially we're looking for,emotional detachment
and antisocial behaviors.Detachment was more
associated with narcissism.So exploring things
like charm and egocentricity and then
antisocial behaviors were associatedwith antisocial
personality, exploring thingslike impulsivity,
irresponsibility, and the needfor stimulation.
(13:28):
Yeah. And then updated researchexpanded this to
include four main things thatthe test explores.
That's going to be lifestyle,emotions, or
affect, interpersonal relations,and then antisocial
behavior. So it took a lotof the previous
concepts that fit under narcissismand antisocial
and then expanded them. Andit also included
more overt behavioral issuesstarting in youth.
(13:51):
So Doc Fish, with this in mind, how does Hare'sPsychopathy Checklist compare to the
DSM's antisocial personality?In looking at
this measure, I think there'ssome obvious
overlap in how each focuseson irresponsibility,
impulsiveness, deceptiveness,and lack of remorse.
Both also kind of mention aggressivebehaviors in
(14:12):
different ways, but the onlyDSM criteria that's
not overtly captured by the PCL-R are the
ones involving breaking thelaw and reckless
disregard for safety of others. However, Hare'schecklist does reference offenses,
though it's unclear if ithas to be criminal
offensive or not. I alsofeel like reckless
(14:33):
disregard for safety could be inferred, butit's not overtly captured by the PCL-R.
Yeah. So it's safe to say that the DSM's antisocialpersonality overlaps with Hare's
Psychopathy Checklist. Yeah.I think a large
chunk of the DSM's antisocialpersonality does
map onto the checklist, butnot all of it. Yeah.
So I keep coming back to thisresearch that noted
(14:54):
the majority of prisoners,so 70 to 80% meet
criteria for antisocial personalitydisorder,
while only 15 to 25% meet the appropriate
score for psychopathy. So 70to 80% of prisoners
cannot all have the same personality. The
just can't. No, it doesn'twork that way.
So the Psychopathy Checklist and the DSM antisocial,it's not a perfect one-to-one
(15:19):
match, but of the DSM personalitydiagnoses,
antisocial would be the mostobvious pick for
Hare's psychopathy, but again,not a 100% match.
Yeah. And I also personallythink that both the
DSM and Hare's checklist are perhaps too
simplistic in really understandingthese darker
types, because there can be layers and
(15:41):
layers of other personalityfeatures that lead to
antisocial behavior or psychopathicbehavior
even. And it's really, reallyhard to capture that in
categorical boxes like the DSMand certainly in a
20 question checklist as well.Yeah. I do agree.
And on that note, there isresearch that found
that PCL-R items are correlatedwith narcissistic
(16:03):
personality disorder, especially the
factors involving lifestyleand affect like charm,
grandiosity, manipulation, and lack of
empathy. Yeah. No surprised there.Yeah. If we think
about it using Stone's continuumthat we just
talked about, narcissism isinherently present
in the following worst thingslike malignant
(16:24):
narcissism, antisocial personalitydisorder,
psychopathy, sadism. Yeah. And then Stone
states, "If there is from the standpointof personality,
one red thread running throughthe majority
of violent crimes, this wouldbe narcissism."
There it is. Makes sense. Sothose who choose to
exploit or destroy others areobviously putting
(16:45):
their own desires first withno consideration
of others. And I think thatthe narcissistic self
focus is most often not violent, but it
absolutely can be. It absolutelycan be. Yeah. And I sound
like a broken record sayingthis, but narcissism
as a trait is the first ingredientin any major
(17:06):
problematic personality. Itis the flour in the
dysfunctional personality cookie.You have to have
it. And then you add in otheringredients and
it can make for a quite vileand sometimes even
deadly recipe. But we alsoneed to talk about
Millon here because he hadyet a different take
on psychopathy versus antisocial.Yes, Millon.
(17:27):
Okay. So he had a differenttheory in that he
believes psychopathy canshow up in various
personalities and combinations.So he actually
came up with 10 subtypesof psychopathy. And
unfortunately we don't havetime to get into all
of them today as far as thespecifics go, but
it is important to understandthat Millon believed
psychopaths could come inall different kinds
(17:50):
and shapes and sizes, dependingon what other
personality traits are intheir psyche. Yeah.
So this is the speed versionof all these things,
but yeah. So my understandingis that Hare's
checklist detects the psychopaths,but it doesn't
get into the specifics kindof like, let's say
you're buying a package ofgummy worms, right?
It's packaged as gummy worms,but you could have
like so many different flavorsin that package.
(18:12):
And the same is true withpsychopaths. Like
they come in so many differentflavors inside that
psychopathic package. But Ithink this is where
Millon's theory is very helpfulbecause he actually
starts naming the flavors and the flavor
combinations. And in thoseflavor combinations,
we actually see a lot of overlapwith Stone's
work on the dark personalityspectrum. So you better
(18:34):
believe those six dark flavorsdefinitely show up
here in Millon's subtypes. Right.So the 10 subtypes
have some more of those dangerouspersonality
pieces like antisocial and sadisticand narcissistic
and paranoid and negativistic. Others
involve histrionic and borderlinefeatures and even
(18:54):
avoidant and dependent flavors.I believe that we
are going to have a lot ofCluster B personality
overlap here, because that's where
antisocial sits. That's wherenarcissism sits as well.
And the more dramatic and erratictypes, but also
some fearful types also showup in these subtypes,
some of the more backward types,even dependent
personality. I'm intrigued.So tell me more about
(19:16):
these psychopathic gummyworm flavors. Some
sound sneaky. Well, I do thinkthere's like a couple
weird ones that I wouldn't really think
about because they're not theclassic psychopath.
Yeah. So some of those weirderones include
the spineless psychopath. Sothat's the blend of
avoidant and dependent features.They're super
(19:37):
insecure and feel weak. Sothen they harm other
people as a counter move.Then there's the
unprincipled psychopath who'sa narcissistic
personality. They're arrogant,fraudulent and
exploitative. And then a disingenuouspsychopath
is a histrionic personalitywho's essentially
impulsive, resentful, deceptive,all kind of
(19:59):
wrapped up in a friendly, sociableexterior. Oh my
word. That sounds particularlydangerous and yucky.
Like a real femme fatale is what I'm
thinking. Like I feel like I'veseen some lady boss
documentaries that kind of depicted this
psychopathic, histrionic type.Possibly. Okay.
I do think that disingenuous psychopaths
(20:21):
are fascinating and likelyto be misdiagnosed,
especially if they're a female.So maybe with
things like bipolar, depressionwith psychosis
and schizophrenia, they oftendo end up in jail
and then they have like gradualdisintegration.
An interesting note aboutthis one is that
their deceit extends to themselves.Oh yeah. So they
(20:44):
unconsciously want to be loved,but then they
feel like the only way theycan obtain that is by
making other people do it. Oh, that is so
fascinating. So these typeslie to themselves
is what you're saying and theybelieve their own
lies. Hello, self-awareness.Anybody, anybody home?
So then they manipulate othersin order to be
(21:05):
loved. I'm thinking this iswhere some of that
dependency comes in where it'slove me, love me,
pay attention to me. And thenthere's a combination
of histrionic and antisocialpersonalities in
the risk-taking psychopath.So they flagrantly
disregard danger and pursue thrill at the
expense of others being irresponsibleand neglectful.
(21:26):
Then there's more of a pure antisocial
personality in the covetous psychopathwho essentially feels
life ripped them off. And so they just
revengefully take from othersto make up for it.
This sounds like your typical flavors,like nothing too surprising here.
And then that histrionicflavor means that
there's maybe more energy behindthis personality.
(21:47):
Exactly. And then the other five subtypes
are combinations of negativistic,paranoid,
and sadistic. So these areparticularly dark.
The malignant psychopath isa paranoid personality
who's resentful, mistrustful,envious, and
vindictive. They think othersare just out to
get them and they have vengefulfantasies that
(22:07):
can be acted out. However, theabrasive psychopath
is a combination of negativisticand paranoid
personalities. They're obnoxiousand antagonistic,
so they spew venom without remorse. Then
there's the explosive psychopath.So that's a sadistic
personality at the borderlinelevel who have
(22:28):
unpredictable, vindictive,rageful outbursts
with or without provocation, although
they're super sensitive tofeelings of betrayal.
Holy smokes. Okay, so theexplosive psychopath
with the sadistic core soundslike someone who
would go on a killing spree after being
slighted. And I'm hearing thatinstability in this type,
which is probably where they overlap withborderline with the instability.
(22:50):
Yes.
But they get worse.
They always do.
Right. Millon lists the lasttwo as particularly
frightening and cruel. So themalevolent psychopath
is a mixture of paranoid and sadistic
personalities being hostile, vindictive,and destructive,
as well as having a cold-bloodedruthlessness to
find revenge for their childhoodmistreatments.
(23:12):
So they're also suspicious of others
anticipating betrayal. And Millonquotes, "Many murders and
serial killers fit this."
Oh, joy.
Right. Yeah. Now, they alsocognitively can
understand guilt and remorse,but they don't
necessarily feel it.
All right. So here's whereit is. Yeah, we
have a vendetta against childhoodattachments,
(23:32):
and then the world has to pay.
Exactly. Which is a combination of
negativistic and sadistic personalitiesand is one of the
most pure forms of the classicalpsychopath.
Okay.
So they're abusive, calculating, and areinspired to attack more when met with
resistance or weakness. They go out of theirway to be inhumane and unmerciful.
(23:54):
Jeez. This reminds me of some true crime
stuff that I've heard with thereal sickos of the
world. I think you've described thequintessential psychopath here.
Yeah.
But the point in bringingall these up, even
if briefly, is to highlightthe myriad of ways
that a psychopath can present.They are not the
same at all. So many differentflavor combinations
(24:17):
mixed with other personalitytypes, but is
antisocial the same as apsychopath? What do
you think?
I don't think so. So when I think of
psychopathy, I actually think moreof sadistic personality,
which technically includes paranoid
personalities because paranoidshave a sadomasochistic
dynamic. So to me, the layterm psychopathy
(24:37):
equates to intentional andpleasurable cruelty,
which is of course the definitionof sadism.
However, there are other personalitiesthat are
more likely to be cruel inmore passive or even
unintentional ways. So I thinkabout these types
of having such high self-interestthat they
kind of have blinders on,coveting resources,
(24:59):
forcing love that's not real, pursuing risk,et cetera. So I don't necessarily view
antisocial personalities ascruel. They can be,
but often not. I definitelyview psychopaths as
cruel. So I like Stones continuumbest to understand that.
Yeah. So in my world, I would use Hare's
checklist to detect the psychopath.So would anyone like
(25:22):
to take a test for me? Right?In a perfect
world to figure out, okay, doyou kind of pass the
psychopathic smell test?And though your gut
could also probably tell youthat, but anyway,
and then use Millon's workto narrow down the
exact type. And then I think Stone'sresearch is just
helpful overall for the conceptualizationof how
to understand like how darkthe psyche can go with
(25:44):
his spectrum of negativepersonalities. But
knowing these types also helpsus with differential
diagnosing. Not that anyof these types are
necessarily going to endup in our office,
but maybe, maybe they willin outpatient, but
still because we have allof these dark traits
that can overlap. I think it's really
helpful to know what's worseand what the different
(26:06):
flavor combinations can be.That's where Millon's
work comes in. That's wherehis subtypes pick up
on that. The darker traits in addition to
psychopathy. And then ofcourse, you know,
there's a worse prognosisfor those types.
Right. Cause we're at the end of the line
in terms of darkness and the psyche. Yeah.It doesn't get much darker than that.
If we want to go categoricallike names, there's
(26:28):
no bottom to how dark the psychecan go. Anyway,
in regard to the DSM, I personallywouldn't even
use the DSM here because it'sreally incomplete
in its description. Many ofMillon's psychopathic
subtypes would technically fitunder the umbrella
term of antisocial in theDSM. And it just,
that's not a fit, right? It'sjust not descriptive
(26:48):
enough. And there's way, waymore going on in the
personality and in the psychethan the trash can
diagnosis that antisocial isnow. Exactly. The
DSM just stops at antisocialpersonality disorder
and ignores the rest of thedark personalities,
and they can't all just belumped together at
the end and antisocial. Right.Which is why we
chucked out the DSM. We threwit out the window.
(27:11):
Bye DSM. Bye! Anyway, bringing this back
around. So today we answeredthe question of what is
antisocial versus psychopathy?Are they the
same? Are they different? Wepresented some evidence
here. So I'm curious listenersand viewers, what
do you think? Are they the same?Are they different?
I'll put a poll out on YouTubewhere you can
submit your answers. Reallycurious what you
(27:32):
think on this one. We do haveantisocial versus
narcissism coming out next.So don't forget to
like, subscribe. If you'rea personality nerd,
we've also got blogs, visuals,and references that
coincide with each episode at
www.personalitycouch.com. And if you're aprovider looking to consult about
a case or if you're in needof psychodynamic
therapy or a deep dive psychologicalevaluation,
we can help with that. I'llprovide a link
(27:54):
in the show notes below.Be well, be kind,
and we'll see you next timeon the Personality
Couch. This podcast is for informationalpurposes
only and does not constitutea professional
relationship. If you're inneed of professional
health, please seek out appropriateresources in
your area. Information aboutclinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed inbroad and universal
(28:15):
terms and do not refer to anyspecific person or case.
Welcome to the Personality Couch podcast,where we discuss all things personality.
I'm your host, Doc Bok, herewith my co-host, Doc Fish.
We are both licensed clinical psychologists
in private practice, and today we are
continuing our series on antisocialpersonality disorder.
Antisocial is the counterculturaland often
criminal personality that canshow up in many places.
(00:23):
But what sets antisocial apartfrom psychopathy?
Are they the same thing? Sometheorists thought
so, while others, like RobertHare, didn't.
Let's unpack the controversyand our thoughts.
Historically, psychopath orpsychopathy meant
something totally differentthan it does today.
Psychopath in the late 1800sbasically was
(00:44):
a question of, "Does theperson's pathology
originate in the psyche, or does society
make them this way?" So ifthey're born with it,
the condition is psychopathic.And then if
society makes them, the conditionis sociopathic.
Now not too long after that, the term psychopathicthen became a catch-all term
(01:05):
for personality disorders,meaning that the
personality dysfunction originatesin the psyche.
And of course, there was a ton of stigma
around personality dysfunction,especially the types
prone to criminal mischief.We used pejorative
terms like moral insanityand constitutionally
inferior to describe them.Yeah, we sure did.
(01:27):
Yeah, so to quell this stigma,we then overcorrected
and started calling thosewith personality
conditions sociopaths or thosewith sociopathy,
meaning society made themthis way. And then
what followed was essentiallya tug of war between
calling personality disorder sociopathic
or psychopathic, as theywere trying to take
(01:49):
value-laden labels out of the naming process,and no one could agree. Until,
Cleckley came on the scenein 1941 with his
famous book, The Mask of Sanity,to try to clear
up the trashcan term thatpsychopathic and
sociopathic had become. Researchersthen appreciated
his clarification of psychopathic traits, aswell as his assertion that these types
(02:13):
are found not only in prisons,but in some of
society's most powerful andrespected roles.
Politicians, businessmen, entrepreneurs,scientists, doctors.
Yeah, the usual suspects.And he said that the
successful types, "keepup a far better and
more consistent outward appearanceof being
(02:34):
normal. The chief difference liesperhaps in whether the
mask or facade of health is extended intosuperficial material success."
Hence the book name, Mask of Sanity.Like, how good is the mask?
Bingo, yeah. So, Cleckley'sgroundbreaking
work set the stage for RobertHare's Psychopathy
(02:58):
Checklist in the 1970s, whichwe'll get more
into in a bit. However, theredid seem to be a split
in that some theorists believedthat psychopath
was the same thing as the antisocialpersonality
that we know now, while otherssaid the terms are
different, with psychopathybeing the more severe
(03:18):
version or even more severethan antisocial.
Right. Psychopathic and antisocialpersonality
is like the same in psychodynamicpersonality
literature. There is no antisocialpersonality,
just psychopathic, which antisocialfalls under.
So the PDM authors noted, "Weprefer the earlier
term psychopathic to thecurrent antisocial.
(03:40):
Many people with psychopathicpersonalities are not
obviously antisocial. Thatis, they're not
observably at odds with socialnorms. In fact,
many people with psychopathicpersonalities
are able to pursue theiragendas in contexts
of social approval and even admiration."
Uh-huh. I love that quote. Yeah.Positions of approval
(04:01):
or admiration like Wall Street, politics,
entrepreneurs, world leaders,the types that
are drawn to powerful positionsand either are
admired for it or hated, orthey're polarizing
when they're a little of both.So also the DSM
doesn't use psychopathic, butit did use a similar
(04:22):
term in its first editions.So sociopathic
personality disturbance was in the DSM-I,
and it later became antisocialpersonality
disorder in the DSM-III. Mm-hmm.Then we also
have Michael Stone, who's a forensic
psychiatrist. And in 2018, he cameup with a dark spectrum of
(04:43):
personalities that place psychopathyas more severe
than antisocial. Yes, he did.Yeah. And I think we
should unpack his work firstbecause I think it's
personally the most helpfulin understanding the
nuances between antisocialand psychopathy.
Absolutely. Let's go. Okay.So Stone's spectrum
is a range, capturing more than just
(05:04):
antisocial and psychopathy. Hisnegative spectrum of
personality has six components,with each level
getting progressively worse.Mm-hmm. So let's start
at the beginning. So level oneis simply negative
personality. So those who haveseverely negative
traits like being abrasive,deceitful, tactless,
aggressive, cruel, or malicious.Yeah. Your jerks
(05:26):
are the world, what I callthe prickly porcupine
people. So we like to callthis dusk in terms of
personality darkness. Thesetypes probably
aren't going to murder you, butthey're really, really
irritating and they can justmake your life
miserable. Sure. Sure. Andthen level two is
severe personality disorders, including
narcissistic and paranoid personalitydisorders.
(05:48):
So narcissistic personality disorder
involves a tendency to be self-important,entitled,
exploitative, envious, andarrogant with a need
for admiration. They believethey're special and
fantasize of unlimited success,which sets them
up for risky, yucky behaviors.And then they can
also have decreased, intermittent,or even just a
lack of empathy. Yeah. So youraverage narcissist
(06:11):
won't kill you unless theirpersonality is mixed
with other dark traits, whichis yet to come. So
stay tuned. They're just killingyour self-esteem
and your sense of normalcy.They're toxic. Yeah.
Right. Right. And then inthe second level, we
also have those with paranoidpersonality disorder.
So these types believe without evidence
that others are out to getthem. They like to
(06:31):
read neutral statements and events as
demeaning or threatening becausethey think that others
are dangerous. They don'tconfide in anybody
because they fear it will beused against them.
Yeah. And then they unjustifiably doubt theloyalty of others, at times experiencing
pathological jealousy as they suspect
infidelity of their partner, butagain, without evidence.
(06:53):
So they hold grudges and areready to counter
attack as they believe thatthey should attack
first or risk being attacked.But the three
most dangerous criteria thatwe just listed are the
pathological jealousy, thegrudge holding, and
the vindictiveness. Which movesus into level three.
So that's malignant narcissism.So malignant
(07:15):
narcissism is a core of narcissism,but it adds
antisocial behavior, sadism or aggressive
flavor, and then paranoid features.It originated from
Kernberg who identified thatcore narcissism,
but he noted that there waslike a worse form
of narcissism that pulls in those other
dangerous traits. So less dangerousforms of narcissism
(07:38):
might be like the egocentricsuperstar who's
always right and brilliantand focused on image.
She's super annoying and not great to bearound, but she's not malignant.
Yeah. So a malignant form ofnarcissism involves
self-focusedness or image maintenanceplus paranoid
suspiciousness that othersare out to get them,
(08:00):
and then aggressiveness or sadismand a desire to
harm others and then actuallyacting out of
those antisocial behaviors, oftenby breaking the law.
So an example maybe is aworld leader whose
self-focus is nauseating. Plusthey find their allies
threatening and then worry about being
destroyed by them. So then theybully others under their
(08:22):
leadership and then threatento harm their people
or other countries as a way towin favor and control.
Right, right. So this has escalated fromthe annoying narcissistic superstar.
Like the malignant narcissistsays other negative
pieces that make them especiallydark and they're
often drawn to positions of powerto bolster their image.
(08:42):
Right on. Yeah. So level four is where we
finally get to antisocial personalitydisorder.
So antisocial personalitydisorder means that
we have all of the previouscharacteristics that
are mentioned like malignantnarcissism, negative
traits, that pop of paranoia,but the core piece
of this personality is antisocial.So this means
(09:02):
that they disregard the rightsof others in society
which can lead to criminal behavior.
Right. And I think it's helpfulto understand
that malignant narcissists canengage in antisocial
behavior, but all antisocial personalitiesinclude the self-focused narcissism.
Absolutely. All dysfunctionalpersonalities
(09:23):
have that heaping dose of narcissismas the first
ingredient. So then we'reat level five, which
is psychopathy. Now, importantly,this is worse
than antisocial per Stone's research. So withinpsychopathy, Stone differentiates
non-violent and violent psychopathy. So
non-violent psychopathy may overlapwith the passive
(09:44):
parasitic psychopath or basically like a
con artist who preys on otherswithout empathy
in pursuit of his own self-interest.Yeah. So
parasitic, think parasite,the types that just
leech off of others, but aren'tovertly aggressive,
but they will con you out ofmoney or find ways to
satisfy their greed withoutmurdering you.
(10:05):
Yes. And then we have psychopathywith violence,
which may overlap with theaggressive psychopath
being more impulsive, aggressive,and assaultive,
AKA more susceptible to being,you know, violent.
Right. Yeah. But we're stillnot at the worst of
the worst yet. Level sixis the worst of the
worst. And that is sadisticpersonality. Right.
(10:25):
So sadism is not akin tosexual sadism. It's
a trait and it can be a corepersonality. So
sadistic personalities achievedominance through
cruelty. They humiliate others.They take pleasure
in others suffering. They lieto harm others and
they may intimidate othersto get them to obey.
They're excessively controllingand they may
(10:47):
be fascinated by violence,weapons, martial
arts, injury, or torture.No, thank you. Yeah.
For these types, harm to othersis the name of their
game. Anything else, be itpower, ego cookies,
the like, is just an added bonusbecause they thrive
on harming others. Yes. Andthen within this
(11:08):
level, Stone notes sadism withterrorism is the
worst from his continuum onlybecause the number of
victims and deaths are oftenhigher. Oh, absolutely.
Yeah. So a sadist is goingto have psychopathic
features, malignant narcissism,antisocial traits,
and elements of paranoia. Andthey all can go hand
(11:29):
in hand, but it's what is atthe personality core
that makes all the difference.So I also want to
say if you found Stone's Spectruminteresting and
are looking for more, I recommendepisode 27,
What's Worse Than a Narcissist: the Baddest of Them All. (11:41):
undefined
We get into the details there. So I will
link that in the show notesand on YouTube.
If dark personalities areyour jam. Yes. And
then one more note aboutsadistic or sadism.
Yeah. Millon notes that sadistic is a
separate personality constructfrom antisocial. The
PDM and psychodynamic literature also has
(12:04):
sadistic personalities listedas separate from
psychopathic. And remember,psychopathic and
antisocial are one in the samein psychodynamic.
Right. And then the DSM actuallyused to have a
sadistic personality in theappendix of the DSM
III-R, but it wasdropped in the DSM
IV. Of course it was. Yeah.We don't talk about that
stuff. Nope. We don't talkabout personalities
(12:25):
that dark in the DSM. So we juststop at antisocial
personality on the spectrum.But I do want to
move to Robert Hare's work becausehe is a household
name now with the conceptof psychopathy. So
let's go there. Okay. All right.So as we mentioned
earlier, Hare used Cleckley's work and
created the Hare PsychopathyChecklist in the 1970s.
(12:47):
And it has since been revised.So for short, it's
now called the PCL-R. So thePCL-R consists of 20
items and it's utilized asa semi-structured
interview. And then you haveto have a score of
at least 30 out of 40 tomeet the cutoff for
psychopathy. Throughout theresearch, there used
to be two things that the questions
(13:07):
essentially we're looking for,emotional detachment
and antisocial behaviors.Detachment was more
associated with narcissism.So exploring things
like charm and egocentricity and then
antisocial behaviors were associatedwith antisocial
personality, exploring thingslike impulsivity,
irresponsibility, and the needfor stimulation.
(13:28):
Yeah. And then updated researchexpanded this to
include four main things thatthe test explores.
That's going to be lifestyle,emotions, or
affect, interpersonal relations,and then antisocial
behavior. So it took a lotof the previous
concepts that fit under narcissismand antisocial
and then expanded them. Andit also included
more overt behavioral issuesstarting in youth.
(13:51):
So Doc Fish, with this in mind, how does Hare'sPsychopathy Checklist compare to the
DSM's antisocial personality?In looking at
this measure, I think there'ssome obvious
overlap in how each focuseson irresponsibility,
impulsiveness, deceptiveness,and lack of remorse.
Both also kind of mention aggressivebehaviors in
(14:12):
different ways, but the onlyDSM criteria that's
not overtly captured by the PCL-R are the
ones involving breaking thelaw and reckless
disregard for safety of others. However, Hare'schecklist does reference offenses,
though it's unclear if ithas to be criminal
offensive or not. I alsofeel like reckless
(14:33):
disregard for safety could be inferred, butit's not overtly captured by the PCL-R.
Yeah. So it's safe to say that the DSM's antisocialpersonality overlaps with Hare's
Psychopathy Checklist. Yeah.I think a large
chunk of the DSM's antisocialpersonality does
map onto the checklist, butnot all of it. Yeah.
So I keep coming back to thisresearch that noted
(14:54):
the majority of prisoners,so 70 to 80% meet
criteria for antisocial personalitydisorder,
while only 15 to 25% meet the appropriate
score for psychopathy. So 70to 80% of prisoners
cannot all have the same personality. The
just can't. No, it doesn'twork that way.
So the Psychopathy Checklist and the DSM antisocial,it's not a perfect one-to-one
(15:19):
match, but of the DSM personalitydiagnoses,
antisocial would be the mostobvious pick for
Hare's psychopathy, but again,not a 100% match.
Yeah. And I also personallythink that both the
DSM and Hare's checklist are perhaps too
simplistic in really understandingthese darker
types, because there can be layers and
(15:41):
layers of other personalityfeatures that lead to
antisocial behavior or psychopathicbehavior
even. And it's really, reallyhard to capture that in
categorical boxes like the DSMand certainly in a
20 question checklist as well.Yeah. I do agree.
And on that note, there isresearch that found
that PCL-R items are correlatedwith narcissistic
(16:03):
personality disorder, especially the
factors involving lifestyleand affect like charm,
grandiosity, manipulation, and lack of
empathy. Yeah. No surprised there.Yeah. If we think
about it using Stone's continuumthat we just
talked about, narcissism isinherently present
in the following worst thingslike malignant
(16:24):
narcissism, antisocial personalitydisorder,
psychopathy, sadism. Yeah. And then Stone
states, "If there is from the standpointof personality,
one red thread running throughthe majority
of violent crimes, this wouldbe narcissism."
There it is. Makes sense. Sothose who choose to
exploit or destroy others areobviously putting
(16:45):
their own desires first withno consideration
of others. And I think thatthe narcissistic self
focus is most often not violent, but it
absolutely can be. It absolutelycan be. Yeah. And I sound
like a broken record sayingthis, but narcissism
as a trait is the first ingredientin any major
(17:06):
problematic personality. Itis the flour in the
dysfunctional personality cookie.You have to have
it. And then you add in otheringredients and
it can make for a quite vileand sometimes even
deadly recipe. But we alsoneed to talk about
Millon here because he hadyet a different take
on psychopathy versus antisocial.Yes, Millon.
(17:27):
Okay. So he had a differenttheory in that he
believes psychopathy canshow up in various
personalities and combinations.So he actually
came up with 10 subtypesof psychopathy. And
unfortunately we don't havetime to get into all
of them today as far as thespecifics go, but
it is important to understandthat Millon believed
psychopaths could come inall different kinds
(17:50):
and shapes and sizes, dependingon what other
personality traits are intheir psyche. Yeah.
So this is the speed versionof all these things,
but yeah. So my understandingis that Hare's
checklist detects the psychopaths,but it doesn't
get into the specifics kindof like, let's say
you're buying a package ofgummy worms, right?
It's packaged as gummy worms,but you could have
like so many different flavorsin that package.
(18:12):
And the same is true withpsychopaths. Like
they come in so many differentflavors inside that
psychopathic package. But Ithink this is where
Millon's theory is very helpfulbecause he actually
starts naming the flavors and the flavor
combinations. And in thoseflavor combinations,
we actually see a lot of overlapwith Stone's
work on the dark personalityspectrum. So you better
(18:34):
believe those six dark flavorsdefinitely show up
here in Millon's subtypes. Right.So the 10 subtypes
have some more of those dangerouspersonality
pieces like antisocial and sadisticand narcissistic
and paranoid and negativistic. Others
involve histrionic and borderlinefeatures and even
(18:54):
avoidant and dependent flavors.I believe that we
are going to have a lot ofCluster B personality
overlap here, because that's where
antisocial sits. That's wherenarcissism sits as well.
And the more dramatic and erratictypes, but also
some fearful types also showup in these subtypes,
some of the more backward types,even dependent
personality. I'm intrigued.So tell me more about
(19:16):
these psychopathic gummyworm flavors. Some
sound sneaky. Well, I do thinkthere's like a couple
weird ones that I wouldn't really think
about because they're not theclassic psychopath.
Yeah. So some of those weirderones include
the spineless psychopath. Sothat's the blend of
avoidant and dependent features.They're super
(19:37):
insecure and feel weak. Sothen they harm other
people as a counter move.Then there's the
unprincipled psychopath who'sa narcissistic
personality. They're arrogant,fraudulent and
exploitative. And then a disingenuouspsychopath
is a histrionic personalitywho's essentially
impulsive, resentful, deceptive,all kind of
(19:59):
wrapped up in a friendly, sociableexterior. Oh my
word. That sounds particularlydangerous and yucky.
Like a real femme fatale is what I'm
thinking. Like I feel like I'veseen some lady boss
documentaries that kind of depicted this
psychopathic, histrionic type.Possibly. Okay.
I do think that disingenuous psychopaths
(20:21):
are fascinating and likelyto be misdiagnosed,
especially if they're a female.So maybe with
things like bipolar, depressionwith psychosis
and schizophrenia, they oftendo end up in jail
and then they have like gradualdisintegration.
An interesting note aboutthis one is that
their deceit extends to themselves.Oh yeah. So they
(20:44):
unconsciously want to be loved,but then they
feel like the only way theycan obtain that is by
making other people do it. Oh, that is so
fascinating. So these typeslie to themselves
is what you're saying and theybelieve their own
lies. Hello, self-awareness.Anybody, anybody home?
So then they manipulate othersin order to be
(21:05):
loved. I'm thinking this iswhere some of that
dependency comes in where it'slove me, love me,
pay attention to me. And thenthere's a combination
of histrionic and antisocialpersonalities in
the risk-taking psychopath.So they flagrantly
disregard danger and pursue thrill at the
expense of others being irresponsibleand neglectful.
(21:26):
Then there's more of a pure antisocial
personality in the covetous psychopathwho essentially feels
life ripped them off. And so they just
revengefully take from othersto make up for it.
This sounds like your typical flavors,like nothing too surprising here.
And then that histrionicflavor means that
there's maybe more energy behindthis personality.
(21:47):
Exactly. And then the other five subtypes
are combinations of negativistic,paranoid,
and sadistic. So these areparticularly dark.
The malignant psychopath isa paranoid personality
who's resentful, mistrustful,envious, and
vindictive. They think othersare just out to
get them and they have vengefulfantasies that
(22:07):
can be acted out. However, theabrasive psychopath
is a combination of negativisticand paranoid
personalities. They're obnoxiousand antagonistic,
so they spew venom without remorse. Then
there's the explosive psychopath.So that's a sadistic
personality at the borderlinelevel who have
(22:28):
unpredictable, vindictive,rageful outbursts
with or without provocation, although
they're super sensitive tofeelings of betrayal.
Holy smokes. Okay, so theexplosive psychopath
with the sadistic core soundslike someone who
would go on a killing spree after being
slighted. And I'm hearing thatinstability in this type,
which is probably where they overlap withborderline with the instability.
(22:50):
Yes.
But they get worse.
They always do.
Right. Millon lists the lasttwo as particularly
frightening and cruel. So themalevolent psychopath
is a mixture of paranoid and sadistic
personalities being hostile, vindictive,and destructive,
as well as having a cold-bloodedruthlessness to
find revenge for their childhoodmistreatments.
(23:12):
So they're also suspicious of others
anticipating betrayal. And Millonquotes, "Many murders and
serial killers fit this."
Oh, joy.
Right. Yeah. Now, they alsocognitively can
understand guilt and remorse,but they don't
necessarily feel it.
All right. So here's whereit is. Yeah, we
have a vendetta against childhoodattachments,
(23:32):
and then the world has to pay.
Exactly. Which is a combination of
negativistic and sadistic personalitiesand is one of the
most pure forms of the classicalpsychopath.
Okay.
So they're abusive, calculating, and areinspired to attack more when met with
resistance or weakness. They go out of theirway to be inhumane and unmerciful.
(23:54):
Jeez. This reminds me of some true crime
stuff that I've heard with thereal sickos of the
world. I think you've described thequintessential psychopath here.
Yeah.
But the point in bringingall these up, even
if briefly, is to highlightthe myriad of ways
that a psychopath can present.They are not the
same at all. So many differentflavor combinations
(24:17):
mixed with other personalitytypes, but is
antisocial the same as apsychopath? What do
you think?
I don't think so. So when I think of
psychopathy, I actually think moreof sadistic personality,
which technically includes paranoid
personalities because paranoidshave a sadomasochistic
dynamic. So to me, the layterm psychopathy
(24:37):
equates to intentional andpleasurable cruelty,
which is of course the definitionof sadism.
However, there are other personalitiesthat are
more likely to be cruel inmore passive or even
unintentional ways. So I thinkabout these types
of having such high self-interestthat they
kind of have blinders on,coveting resources,
(24:59):
forcing love that's not real, pursuing risk,et cetera. So I don't necessarily view
antisocial personalities ascruel. They can be,
but often not. I definitelyview psychopaths as
cruel. So I like Stones continuumbest to understand that.
Yeah. So in my world, I would use Hare's
checklist to detect the psychopath.So would anyone like
(25:22):
to take a test for me? Right?In a perfect
world to figure out, okay, doyou kind of pass the
psychopathic smell test?And though your gut
could also probably tell youthat, but anyway,
and then use Millon's workto narrow down the
exact type. And then I think Stone'sresearch is just
helpful overall for the conceptualizationof how
to understand like how darkthe psyche can go with
(25:44):
his spectrum of negativepersonalities. But
knowing these types also helpsus with differential
diagnosing. Not that anyof these types are
necessarily going to endup in our office,
but maybe, maybe they willin outpatient, but
still because we have allof these dark traits
that can overlap. I think it's really
helpful to know what's worseand what the different
(26:06):
flavor combinations can be.That's where Millon's
work comes in. That's wherehis subtypes pick up
on that. The darker traits in addition to
psychopathy. And then ofcourse, you know,
there's a worse prognosisfor those types.
Right. Cause we're at the end of the line
in terms of darkness and the psyche. Yeah.It doesn't get much darker than that.
If we want to go categoricallike names, there's
(26:28):
no bottom to how dark the psychecan go. Anyway,
in regard to the DSM, I personallywouldn't even
use the DSM here because it'sreally incomplete
in its description. Many ofMillon's psychopathic
subtypes would technically fitunder the umbrella
term of antisocial in theDSM. And it just,
that's not a fit, right? It'sjust not descriptive
(26:48):
enough. And there's way, waymore going on in the
personality and in the psychethan the trash can
diagnosis that antisocial isnow. Exactly. The
DSM just stops at antisocialpersonality disorder
and ignores the rest of thedark personalities,
and they can't all just belumped together at
the end and antisocial. Right.Which is why we
chucked out the DSM. We threwit out the window.
(27:11):
Bye DSM. Bye! Anyway, bringing this back
around. So today we answeredthe question of what is
antisocial versus psychopathy?Are they the
same? Are they different? Wepresented some evidence
here. So I'm curious listenersand viewers, what
do you think? Are they the same?Are they different?
I'll put a poll out on YouTubewhere you can
submit your answers. Reallycurious what you
(27:32):
think on this one. We do haveantisocial versus
narcissism coming out next.So don't forget to
like, subscribe. If you'rea personality nerd,
we've also got blogs, visuals,and references that
coincide with each episode at
www.personalitycouch.com. And if you're aprovider looking to consult about
a case or if you're in needof psychodynamic
therapy or a deep dive psychologicalevaluation,
we can help with that. I'llprovide a link
(27:54):
in the show notes below.Be well, be kind,
and we'll see you next timeon the Personality
Couch. This podcast is for informationalpurposes
only and does not constitutea professional
relationship. If you're inneed of professional
health, please seek out appropriateresources in
your area. Information aboutclinical trends or
diagnoses are discussed inbroad and universal
(28:15):
terms and do not refer to anyspecific person or case.
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