Episode Transcript
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Hi everyone, and welcome to Revelizations.
I'm your host, Brian James.
Today's guest, Kurt Pflegl, is a longtime friend that I had the pleasure of sitting
down and talking to recently.
Not talking to, talking with.
Talking to makes it sound like I'm admonishing him for something, which I'm pretty sure this
was a cordial conversation.
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Kurt has a bachelor's in general ministry, he's a certified life coach, he's also certified
in spiritual direction.
Kurt has been married for over 30 years with two adult daughters.
He's served in ministry for over 20 years and is currently the associate pastor for
Coastal Community Church.
Today Kurt and I will be talking about Christianity with some insights on how a religion thousands
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of years old is just as relevant today as it was then.
Thanks for listening everyone.
Hi everybody, and welcome to another episode of Revelizations.
I'm your host, Brian James, and today I have the pleasure of introducing you to a longtime
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friend of almost a decade.
It's really closer to nine years, but nine is almost 10, so a friend of almost a decade,
Kurt Pflegl.
Hey, thanks for inviting me to be on the podcast with you, I really appreciate it.
Yeah man, the pleasure's all mine, I'm very excited for this conversation.
The first question is, how do you spell your last name?
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That's such a hard question.
It's P-F as in Frank, L-E-G-L.
This is probably the question I've been asked more in my life than any other question.
I figured you'd be prepared for it, so I wanted to start with that.
I don't think I've ever read a last name to where I looked at it and said, that has to
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be a typo.
Is there any form that you've ever filled out your last name and it was just like, oh
yeah, that's a word?
Or is it auto-correct, always trying to be like, no, clearly you're under the influence
of something.
That is not what you meant to put.
There's other times where people thought I was under the influence, but writing my name
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wasn't one of those, I suppose.
I guess the two questions I've been asked more than any other is, how do you pronounce
that, how do you spell that, depending on the situation.
That P just has no business being in there.
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Even beyond that, it's one vowel in the middle of the thing and everybody wants to buy more
vowels.
So both of those things combined.
All right, Kurt, after that hard-hitting question, can you tell us about yourself?
Okay.
So basics then I guess I will say is that at this point in my life, I'm serving in the
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role of associate pastor for a church in California on the central coast of California and I've
been serving in ministry, vocational ministry for 20, a little over 20 years now.
I served in ministry for years before that with kids and had a band, a Christian band
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for a while.
That was actually my first ministry.
And so yeah, pretty soon after choosing to follow Jesus, I felt called to serve in different
ways.
And I would say called is a better way of saying it is I would go along my life and
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then an opportunity would show up and people were like, are you going to do this?
And I'd be like, what, uh, I, well, I guess, and let me pray about it or I guess.
And then, and then Jesus would say, yeah, you're doing that.
So even the band that I tripped and fell into a band is not my intention to be in a band.
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So everything was kind of trip and fall into this thing.
Even this position I'm in now, I did not go seeking this.
I had my own podcast and I recorded people on that podcast.
And after the episode was over, they're like, we want you to apply for this job.
I'm like, what?
That's typically my calling.
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This happens all the time with me through my, my life of following Jesus.
Somebody's like, I think you need to do this.
And my answer is what?
That's pretty much my life.
So how is it that you became a Christian?
Were you always a Christian?
Were you born into it?
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How did that happen?
I, I was not born into it.
I was born into what I would consider to be a cult that, that's believed that they were
a lost tribe of Jews.
And we practiced all the Old Testament laws, if you know anything of the Old Testament
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laws, we practiced all of the laws, like dietary laws of the Old Testament and all the festivals
of the Old Testament.
So and then add in like kind of the Jehovah witnesses side of thing where you don't get
to celebrate any normal holidays.
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So didn't grow up celebrating birthdays, Christmas, Halloween, Easter, blah, blah, blah until
I was 10 and my dad got out of that.
And so, and then he started going to a church that was just basically in our town, it was
basically just a country club.
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People just went there to eat donuts and hang out together and nobody really took anything
seriously.
So, so I, I, I, it was empty.
All of that was just empty to me.
It didn't mean anything to me.
That's a pretty big swing though, from following the Old Testament really hard to like, you
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know, just kind of like a social club.
But what was like, so what were some of the Old Testament laws that you remember like
having to stick to beg, wait, why are we doing this?
Yeah.
Yeah.
I didn't even get Hanukkah because it's not an Old Testament, so I didn't get Christmas
or Hanukkah.
I'm like, wait, why are we doing this?
Like what is the point?
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The biggest one I remember was the Passover every year, celebrating the Passover in the
spring, which means you can't eat any leavened bread, so no bread, no toast.
So I had matzah crackers and I don't know if you've ever tried to make a sandwich out
of matzah crackers and peanut butter and jelly.
It does not work very well.
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It was, I, that's only for, you know, it's only for a few days, but it felt like for
every year when you're, you know, when you're eight years old and you don't have a long
context of time, that seems like a long time, a very painful season of no peanut butter
and jelly sandwiches.
Yeah.
It seemed like it would come around too often.
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Totally.
So how did you go from that lost tribe cult to the social club to having, like to becoming
a Christian?
Well, I think it's important to first say that my parents divorced when I was around
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eight years old and that's when my dad started really questioning things because the people's
attitude in that cult changed towards him when they divorced.
And so then he finally got out and then he married my stepmom who was newly following
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Jesus, very immature in her faith.
I can look back and say that now when she first started, when they first married.
And she was very much, this is important, I think, to understand this walk with Jesus
for me because I had a stepmother who to outside, to everyone outside, she was on fire.
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She was like passionate in her following of Jesus to everyone outside, a prayer warrior.
And she was that.
I would, that's not just her reputation.
She was that.
But inside the house, she was pure hell for me.
There was only one person in my life when I was growing up that I wished would die and
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it was her.
I hated her with all my being.
And I said, if that's what it means to be a Christian, I'm never going to be one because
it was hypocrisy at the highest orders.
Everyone outside the home thought she was wonderful and she treated me and my two sisters
like hot garbage.
Like memory, a memory that has stuck with me all these years.
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I was probably like 12 years old and I would wake up.
This is how toxic my family upbringing was to me.
I learned I'm an early morning person and I learned to be an early morning person back
then because when I got up early, there was nobody in the family who was awake and I had
the whole house to myself and it was the only time I felt safe.
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And one morning she gets up to go to the bathroom before my parents had built a bathroom off
their bedroom.
She came out to use the bathroom as probably like five or six in the morning.
I'm 12 years old and that's how early I'm getting up.
And she gets up to go to the bathroom and on her way back, I'm sitting there.
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We haven't said one word to each other.
I'm just sitting there eating cereal and she walks by me and she stops when she's like
right over me, right?
And I'm just sitting at the table.
I got my spoon and a little bunch of cereal on the spoon and I'm about to take a bite
and she looks, she's looking down at me.
I'm looking up at her and she just goes, you're going to hell and just shuffles back into
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her bedroom and closes the door.
And I'm like sitting there with the spoon going, whoa, what just happened, right?
That was my experience of her.
That's in a snapshot.
And yet, I will say the woman who I swore I would never be like, I would never be a
Christian was the woman who prayed me into this relationship with Jesus that I have now.
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And she taught my dad to pray and she had, I've come to understand her and I understand
the brokenness that she was going through.
My dad was her third husband.
He had been left with an infant baby by her first husband, abandoned, and found the love
of her life in her second husband, had a kid with him and then he died of cancer.
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Oh, wow.
So I get this woman and I get the brokenness and the hurt.
And so she gets a husband and gets an older brother for her son.
And then I treated her son, there were six years between us.
I was 11.
I was five.
And I treated him like gum under my shoe.
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So I understand.
And she was a new believer.
She was a baby in her faith.
I get all that.
I understand it now.
And yet, at the same time, God used her.
She taught my dad to pray and all of her immaturity and the faith and all of her brokenness, she
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needed a lot of healing.
And she's a way different person.
That was 40 plus years ago or more.
And so she's a different person now and our relationship has changed.
But I came to faith because when I was 20, I moved to Vegas from Connecticut, where I
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was born and raised.
And I had my best friend and his mom moved and I moved and followed them.
I was working in the casinos at 20 in the places that you could work as a 20-year-old
and not being 21.
When I did turn 21, I got a job where I was working, eventually I was working part-time
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in the casino, helping to clean the casino and part-time in the hotel.
And the guy I worked with in the hotel, I really liked this guy, his name was Tim.
He had certain floors that he took care of in the hotel and certain floors I took care
of.
And we took care of the maids and gave them all their linen and all that kind of stuff.
And also took care of the hallways.
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And so he would be always like, hey, you want to do our floors together?
And I'm like, sure, because he's a great guy.
And so we'd talk and hang out all day long, doing all each other's work together.
It was great.
I loved hanging out with him.
But he would always talk about Jesus in the Bible.
And I was like, this guy is so nice, but he is so freaking weird, right?
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And one day we get the linen in from the trucks and stock the shelves for the maids in the
linen room.
And so here we are in this casino hotel linen room.
And he says, hey, out of the blue, he says, hey, do you want to ask Jesus to forgive you
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of all your sins and name him as your Lord and Savior?
And I'm like, you know, he might as well have been speaking Chinese because I had no idea.
Like I grew up in like churches, won a cult, won a country club.
And I've never all the years of these church experience, I'd never heard anything about
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Jesus dying for my sins and all of that.
And so he said that I'm like, my literal response was, I guess.
And he took that as yes, he took that, I guess, as a yes.
And he's like, great, get down on your knees on this concrete floor in this linen room
and follow me in this prayer.
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And I just repeated whatever he said.
I did not understand really anything he was asking me to pray.
And yet, from that point on, it wasn't like fireworks or any kind of great experience
in that moment.
The only thing I remember from that moment is security guards and maintenance guys walking
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in and out, a couple of people walking in and out of that linen room was on our knees
praying together.
And I'm like praying with my eyes closed and then looking up at them like, oh, I wonder
what they're thinking right now.
And so when that was, when, but after that prayer, I can tell you that within a few weeks,
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I would have this, I had this voice that sounded like my thoughts, my, you know, my, my voice
and my thoughts, but saying things that I would never say to myself like, Kurt, if you,
if you love me and you want to honor me with your life, I need you to stop saying the effort
every other sentence because that doesn't honor me with your lips.
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I'm like, really?
What?
How do I do that?
I don't know how to do that.
Kurt, if you, if you love me and want to honor me with your life and also honor your girlfriend,
I need you to stop going to strip clubs all the time.
I'm like, okay.
So those kinds of weird things without anyone telling me to do that, this voice in my head
that I would now describe knowing, you know, 30 plus years later, following Jesus is the
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Holy Spirit, but it's so, it just blows my mind, Brian, that here's this guy praying
an ignorant prayer that he had no idea what he was saying and his life changed and God
honored that.
How do you explain?
I don't know how to explain that, honestly.
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I mean, you know now what was happening and kind of Jesus working through you and just
like the fruit of the Spirit and just when you actually pursue God, how like transformation
And I feel like that's how a lot of people will get upset at people who at least say
they're Christians when they kind of only have the title, but nothing else in their
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life really reflects that.
And like you said, there's grace for your stepmom back then when she was first starting
because she didn't really know any better or she didn't have people in her life to guide
her into what Christianity truly is.
So what is Christianity?
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If you say you're a Christian, what does that mean?
So for me, I describe it as not necessarily, I don't necessarily call myself a Christian.
That term is, to me, has come into a place where it's culturally, people don't understand
what it, it means something that it didn't mean back in earlier times.
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And in fact, it's so funny that we use that term because it was originally an insult.
That like, Christians did not call themselves Christians, they called themselves the followers
of the way or disciples of Jesus.
It was the culture around them that started mocking them and calling them Christian because
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it means little Christ.
Look at these little Christ, these little messiahs, you know, that's, and they took
that insult and took it on as a term of honor.
But it was not a term of honor.
It was a term, it was, yeah, it was meant to be demeaning and a mockery.
And so for me, I would say I follow Jesus.
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I'm a follower of Jesus.
And for me, or a disciple of Jesus, because that's the culture he lived in was he gathered
disciples.
He asked people to follow him.
So for me, what that means is simply this in the sentence, I would say it means to listen
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for the voice of Jesus, to pursue hearing the voice of Jesus and then obeying what he
says one step at a time.
And it's critical to me that it's one step at a time because I'm so poor, I can't pay
attention to anything else.
Like anything else overwhelms me.
And it is so important for me to practice being present to his presence in the present.
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That's the way I would say it.
So it's a relationship that I didn't go looking for and that God in his love for each of us
pursues us.
I believe that he pursues us and reaches out to us.
And then we have free will to choose that or not.
And if we'll just say yes, one step at a time, that's all it is.
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And there's days, there's moments I don't say yes, there's moments I resist them and
everything's miserable.
It's miserable for me.
Not because God's withholding his love for me, because I choose to close off to all of
his life and his love.
And I choose to sit in my anxiety and whatever else I'm dealing with shame or whatever.
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And that stuff breeds in the place where I'm not inviting Jesus into.
You touched on something that I really like.
I used to not really see, it was like a synonym to me, because when we first became friends,
we originally met each other at a mutual friend's wedding that you officiated.
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But then you had a lot of words to say and I had a lot of words that I didn't want to
listen to.
So we didn't really hit it off.
We did not hit it off.
I remember when we met five years later at your church when my wife and I were thinking
about moving to the Central Coast, we were kind of replaying with each other, like, wait,
did we know each other?
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It's like, wait, you officiated his wedding?
And you're like, yeah, that was me.
You were there?
I was like, yeah, I was one of his best men.
I was literally standing right next to him.
And so I thought that was funny that neither of us really remembered each other.
In a few short years, what a big impact that you would have in my life.
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But I remember when I was first meeting you, this was at your church and you kind of made
the point to say that you were a Christ follower and not a Christian.
And to me, that hit me like a, you know, it's a synonym, you're saying the same thing,
but with different words.
I didn't really understand.
I didn't understand what you were saying.
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And then as I kind of like just sat and thought about it and probably heard your heart about
it more, I realized there is a lot that people bring to the table in the name of religion,
in the name of Christianity.
And we don't have to get into this, but why are there so many different branches of Christianity?
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Why is there Catholicism, Protestant, different branches of Catholicism?
Seventh day Advent, there's so many different beliefs that humans bring to the table, that
humans in their flaws try to make sense of something that's bigger than what we can kind
of understand.
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And so we compartmentalize and we say, well, these are the rules.
And so you saying, I don't have a problem with Christianity or someone says that about
me, but like to me, like I'm a Christ follower.
I follow the path that Jesus set before me.
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His rules are the ones that I want to follow and not make sure I'm checking all these boxes
of people who I'm sitting with in the pews, like making sure that I'm doing right by them
too.
That's not what it is.
Like you said, it's a relationship between you and Jesus.
And I just want to really think about that.
When I actually finally connected, I was like, yeah, there's a lot of power in there, like
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in that.
And you leave a lot of the baggage behind when you do that.
I agree, I agree.
And so there's two questions I'm hearing in that, if you want me to answer them.
One is why there's so many different denominations and streams of Christianity is one.
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And I'd love to answer that.
And two, I think you bring up a good point about what other people are doing or not doing
in their walk, or people looking at people who are Christians and doing immature things,
which we all do, or are not Christians, but claim to be Christians and are doing stuff
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that people go, yeah, see, no, that's why I don't even.
I'm not interested in that.
And that's another topic I think is very important because that's a trap.
And it's important to notice the traps that keep us from being present to all that God
has for us. So those are two different things I would love to touch base on, but I'll let
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you choose which one you want me to talk about first.
Well, I'm really interested in the different denominations and like, why is that a thing?
Like, how did that even become?
Because everyone, for the most part, is reading out of the same book.
Everyone's reading out of the Bible.
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And so how do so many different variations of the same thing come into existence?
Well, I'll give a simple answer first, if that's cool.
And then we can go from there and like fill in and color.
Like, let's draw the picture, simple lines.
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And then if we want to color in, we can do that.
Yeah, we don't have to go into thousands of years of history.
I don't think we have the time for that.
That's a really big question.
But yeah, just just the broad strokes.
And then, yeah, if we have our covering book with us and we want to start doing that, we
can we can doodle in some stuff as well.
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Do you want crayons or markers?
That's my important question.
I need something that's erasable because I'm not good with the lines.
OK, they supposedly have those kind of erasable crayons and stuff like that now.
I don't know if I buy into that.
But anyway, so here's the simplest answer I have for you is is there are so many
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different churches and different streams of Christianity because there are so many
unique people in the world.
And this is the I think there's a beauty to it.
We don't always agree.
In fact, a lot of times we disagree when when people don't do things the way we think
they should be done or have traditions that aren't our traditions and things like that.
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But at the same time, this is the complexity of God.
It says in scripture, there's a there's a point where it says all of creation declares
the glory of God, like everything in creation points to some aspect of who he is.
Right. And the beauty of creation.
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And we're part of that creation.
You know, that's I truly believe that.
We're part of that creation.
So we declare the glory of God in many ways.
And one of those ways is the complexity of God.
Like if God truly is who scripture says he is, the Bible says he is, then he is
infinite in his complexity.
He's infinite. And so how complexity of human beings and how different we are and
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unique we are from one another, even though there's similarities, we all have our
uniqueness to us, you know, points to that complexity of the vastness of God.
And so I think there's a beauty in different denominations being for different kinds of
people who like to worship and and follow Jesus in a way that may not make sense to
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another stream of people, but make sense to this group of people.
And I think that's beautiful.
And the problem is, is when we think this is one of those traps I was talking about,
there are traps that we fall into that actually hinder us.
One of those traps is seeing other people as good or bad rather than different.
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Let's celebrate differences like how wonderful of a world, how much different this
country even, never mind the whole world, how much different our country would be if
we all celebrated each other's differences, even politically, culturally, gender,
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everything, what, how much different would it be if we looked at somebody else instead
of seeing their differences and saying they're wrong, seeing their differences and
celebrating those.
And even if we don't agree with them, still seeking to understand and celebrate those
differences, how much different things would be.
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And I think that's what God has done for us and allowing even through the brokenness
of churches dividing from each other and creating different denominations, that there's
still a beauty even in the brokenness.
And we say this a lot at our church is that you are more broken than you realize and more
loved than you can possibly imagine.
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And there's beauty.
And if God really, truly loves us, then there's hope beyond our brokenness.
That's one of our sayings around here.
And there's beauty in the brokenness.
Even when we divide from each other, there's when new things come out of that, there's
a beauty in that that we can celebrate.
To me, like that just that sounds like Jesus, the the inclusion of it.
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So, like, again, like this, this, this will get this is where it gets divisive is right
here is because I kind of touched upon earlier, at least this is this is my belief is that
we want to put God into a box of what we can understand.
And it just so happens that everything that outrages me outrages God.
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And so there's so many people who absolutely hate Christians and hate God because of the
people that are supposed to represent him that don't.
Like you said, your your stepmom was in her early infancy and she's trying to navigate
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the world. She's had some tough cards dealt to her.
She's had a lot of hurt.
And it doesn't mean that how she treated you was right or sure or anything like that.
But that was your ambassador to God when you were little.
And as a human, her first husband left her with a newborn.
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And then this this next person who she just cherishes and who is her world gets taken
from her. And so who knows what she's internally struggling with.
Right. And so that's where the grace of God comes from.
That's where the understanding is understanding like what you're saying.
There's there's healing in the brokenness and there's love and beauty through that
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brokenness. And then I guess this is a spoiler alert because I do want to dive more into
different religions. I just I feel like that's just so fascinating.
But I do identify as a as a Christian.
I just I feel like that is the thing that kind of just objectively makes the most sense
to me of to what and who Jesus is and what he stands by.
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And like this is, you know, stepping back from all the ugliness and just the history
of religious abuse from someone standing up on a platform saying they know better
and ruling with an iron fist and really just completely mischaracterizing what Jesus
said, you know, like in like in his parables, like who's done the person who has not
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sinned, cast the first stone like in that kind of vein, like they've just completely
manipulated it. But Christians like we we get on these stances, we we focus on these
sins. And I think it's very telling of us personally of the sins that we want to focus
on, because if we want to look at the Bible and the Bible is what Christians that's how
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we know what's important to God because it's in the Bible.
But we look at the Bible and we look at these sins and we say, well, this is this is
the worst sin. This is a sin that we really need to call out as we see it and just
almost be hateful about it.
And like, you know, totally the go to example is is homosexuality.
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And the truth is, and this doesn't make sense to people, but it says God judges all sin
the same. Am I correct in that?
Yeah, yeah. And for me, this is this is the this is a trap.
There's so many traps for us to not live the fullness of life.
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And this is a trap for for all of us, whether we choose to follow Jesus, claim to be a
Christian or some other religion or not any.
That one of the traps is is right here in this idea of morality.
Because people, our culture wars are fought over so much are fought over one group of
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people saying this is what's good and this is what's evil.
And another group of people saying, no, this is what's good and this is what's evil.
And what's interesting for me is if you go back to the moment in Genesis where God is
has created the first humans and he tells them you can eat from any tree in this garden,
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including the tree of life.
But there's one tree that I'm asking you not to eat from.
And that is the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.
That's above your pay grade.
If you eat of this tree, you will not sin.
God didn't say you will sin if you eat from this tree, you will die.
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Like we want to be the determiners of morality.
We want to be able to say what is good and what is evil.
And that is not something that God asks us to do.
It is actually one of the fatal traps when all God is asking us to do.
Will you come to me and will you take my life and everything that's causing death in
(35:59):
you, will you notice the things that cause death and will you give them to me and let
me carry those death, those things that are creating death in you, in your mind, in your
heart, in your in your life, will you give those to me and let me carry those for you
and let me get and then receive my life in exchange.
It's what redemption literally means is to exchange something worthless for something
(36:23):
of infinite worth.
That's redemption.
And it's the constant practice that we all are invited into.
God's like, can you please give me death, your deaths and in your in your burdens, as
Jesus says in Matthew 11, 28 and 29, come to me, all you are weary and heavy burden
(36:45):
and I will give you rest.
There's exchange there.
There's an exchange of burdens and death for rest in life.
In the Old Testament, God, when he institutes the lie, puts Israel on two mountains and
he says, OK, this half of the nation, this mountain represents life and this half of
the nation, this represents death.
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Please choose life.
That's always been the bottom line is not about good and evil.
It's not about morality.
It is about life and death.
And God says, I have life for you.
If you will choose it and give me the death and let me walk through what we ate from
that tree. And we've been fighting since then over what's good and evil.
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And we've all been dying and killing each other over it.
And God's like, no, follow me and receive my life instead.
Focus on you.
Yeah, it just seems like we we pervert it.
We get it in our heads that we have some sort of moral high ground.
And because we're doing the right thing and you're not, that means I get to treat you
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however I want, because I am morally right and I feel like that's where Christians have
really pushed a lot of people away and where, you know, culturally, we've we've gotten a
bad name for ourselves.
And so I'm kind of curious to how how is Christianity different from the actual practice
of it to like what we see in society, how society says that we should practice Christianity?
(38:16):
It's a great question.
I think it comes down to one statement for me, and that is you can only give what you
receive.
And so if you're receiving life from God, if you're learning how to do that, practicing
that not perfectly, this is why I love the fact that in Christianity we are offered
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spiritual practices rather than spiritual perfections or performance.
It's it's practice where we're invited.
I follow a God of invitation, not obligation.
Come to me, all you who are weary and heavy burden, and I will give you rest for I am.
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And this is the rest of it.
Jesus says, for I am gentle and humble in my heart.
And this is the one and only time in all of scripture you can anyone's free to challenge
me on this, but it's the one and only time that Jesus himself describes his own heart
and the heart in the scripture that time was the idea of what's most true about you.
(39:24):
The thing the heart of hearts was your your core, what was most true of you.
And for Jesus, it's an amazing thing that this is the one and only time that Jesus
himself describes his own heart, the core of his being and that uses two words to
describe it. I'm gentle and I'm humble.
So come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
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That's a person that will feel safe with the people who are gentle with us and people
who practice humility.
Those are people we feel safe with.
And I love that that's the reason Jesus gives that we can come to him, truly accept that
invitation that he's not a God of obligation.
He's a God of invitation.
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And what he's inviting us into is rest, rest, like to live restfully in our hearts, in our
minds and in our bodies.
That's a beautiful that's life.
And I love the invitation that he gives that it's not it.
If you look at Jesus invitation, who gets to come to him?
(40:31):
It's wide open to anyone who has a burden or who feels weary.
Come to me, all you who are weary and have your burden.
That is Jesus's own invitation.
However, anyone else or any church or denomination puts it out in Jesus's own words.
If you have a burden and you have weariness, you are invited to come to him, hand it over
(40:56):
and receive rest, if you will.
And so at the end of the day, what does it look like to practice this following of Jesus?
It's to learn to sit.
And when I say sit, I mean that metaphorically.
I don't mean necessarily physically sitting, but to be present to him, learn how to be
present to him, listen for his voice and notice all the other things, the voices that are
(41:23):
warring against that and and listen for his voice and listen for the things that are
burdens, give those over to him and receive his rest and his life.
Because, again, this is what it means to truly follow Jesus.
You can only give what you receive and you are being invited to receive rest in life.
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And then you give it out of the overflow that you learn to practice receiving and noticing
the things that are creating resistance in you and then that will overflow little by
little. So it's the learning to receive all the life that Jesus has for me and all the
rest and then give it so that other people feel his safety through me, how safe they
(42:10):
are. I have a good friend of mine that I'm having a meeting with after this who says
I'm the only person in her life right now that she that feels safe.
And that is that is the highest honor that I could ever ever anyone could ever give me
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because that's who Jesus is for me.
He is safe. He is the safest place on earth.
Christianity is it started as like an insult little Christians, but that is what we're
supposed to do. We're supposed to be like transforming into him, like slowly letting
him work in our lives to reflect him and his characters more and more.
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And yeah, it's like it's just where a lot of people get stuck and what I keep on going
back to in this conversation of what pushes people away from that is people don't do
that. People either nominally say that they're a Christian or culturally a Christian.
They're just born and raised.
You know, it's they don't really give it much thought out of, you know, going to church
(43:21):
once a week or having a Bible study that they go to just because that's what they do.
But they don't let anything really seep in and don't let it really change.
And so you encounter these people and you're just like, well, you say you've been doing
this for so long, but like I don't see the fruit of it.
I see you drive a car and then you're, you know, giving the finger just as much as the
(43:44):
next guy. You're yelling at him just as much as the next guy.
You know, you don't you don't see anything.
That's not to say like Christians should be perfect or like that there's not flawed.
And I think that's another thing that I accidentally stumbled upon right now, like I think
would be kind of interesting to getting into is that realizing that we're all just like
(44:04):
people. And at the end of the day, like we're all going to kind of be hypocrites and to
not practice what we preach because like we're humans, we're flawed.
But the the goal is to be moving more in that direction and to be more grace filled in
that direction. Totally.
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I think you I think you nailed it.
That was super insightful, Brian.
I think you nailed it right on the head.
It's about movement.
Right. Can I tell a little story on this?
Of course. A couple of months ago, I was going to sleep and the light was off.
(44:47):
My wife and I were both going to bed.
And all of a sudden, this question popped in my mind just out of the blue.
And it was this.
It was what's the difference between a groove and a rut?
And I was like, I was like, whoa, that's a wild question.
Like, what's the difference between a groove and a rut?
(45:10):
They're both things you fall into.
You can fall into, right?
They're both this indentation in a surface.
And so I was so like, for whatever reason, that question really caught me my attention.
It was just some random question.
And I said it out loud and like, what's the difference between a groove and a rut?
My wife was like, huh, what is the difference between a groove and a rut?
(45:33):
It sounds like a set up to like a popsicle joke, you know, you think it's going to be
something little. It's like, huh.
That's so funny. Yeah.
And so she was actually thinking about it.
She goes, I don't know. I don't know what the difference is.
What is it? I'm like, I don't know. I'm asking you.
Like, literally. And so I've really that that stuck with me for days.
(45:57):
And I and I realized that was the Holy Spirit giving that to me.
And what came out of it is exactly what you said.
The answer was exactly what you said.
It's about movement. A rut is a place you fall into and get stuck.
But a groove is where you flow.
And so we're learning, we're learning in this this life of following Jesus,
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we're learning to notice the things we fall into that are ruts, that are I keep
using the word trap. You can interchange that with with rut.
We're learning to notice the things that actually we fall into that keep us stuck
and and learning then to see those things as the burdens.
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And then to to take Jesus at his invitation and hand those things over.
Maybe it's a moment of anxiety that I'm carrying and I get stuck in that.
And I'm just holding on to that.
And it's and I and my movement has hindered because I've been just holding
on to that unforgiveness towards a person or multiple people that I'm stuck in.
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And I can't get out of that seeming to get out of that place.
And it's a burden that I've been carrying all that hurt, all the things they said
or something I did to somebody else.
It's a regret.
All of those things are when we become aware of them, oftentimes that awareness
feels bad.
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And that's the very place that people run to something else
to feel better about themselves with addictions.
This is where addictions come in, because when when we become aware
of an area where we're stuck, an area of hurt, an area of unforgiveness
and anxiety we're carrying, shame we're carrying, we often that that awareness
(47:53):
becomes a negative thing to us.
And we run from it into something to numb it and so that we forget about it
rather than seeing it literally as the invitation.
The awareness being the invitation of Jesus to go, you're you're holding on to that.
Can I carry that for you?
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And give you my rest in exchange.
And that's the difference between a rut and a groove.
When we choose to see those that when we become aware,
I like to say it this way, awareness is God's gift to us.
He makes us aware of the of the shame or the anxiety, not the anxiety
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or the people we're worried about or the unforgiveness we're carrying.
The awareness that we're carrying that is a gift.
It's not a curse that we have to run from and numb.
It's actually a gift that Jesus says in that gift comes an invitation entwined
with that, right, entwined with that awareness is a is an invitation to come
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and hand that burden over to him.
And when we do, we receive something better in return and we're flowing.
We're taking another step into life for receiving his life.
So what are the things that we fall into?
Those are the things that I think people get stuck
and they don't even realize they're stuck sometimes that that they don't realize
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they've been rejecting the invitation to hand the thing over.
And they've been afraid of that thing.
And when it comes up in their minds, even when they're praying,
even when they're a Christ follower and they're praying,
that thing comes up in their mind and they get stuck in that
and they push it aside to try to listen to God's voice,
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not realizing that thing coming up in their mind was God's voice,
highlighting the thing that they need to hand over,
that he's inviting them to hand over.
And so here are some of the traps, the ruts that we fall into
that we don't even realize it.
I think these are important for us to go.
How do we keep flowing? Right.
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Jesus says in Matthew five that we're poor in spirit.
And he says blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
That's a critical saying that it's the it's the start.
It's the first words.
It's his opening shot shots fired.
It's it's opening shots that literally sets up
(50:22):
the whole rest of what's called the greatest sermon that he ever
anyone's ever preached the sermon on the mount.
Those are the when Jesus sits down to preach the sermon,
those are his opening words.
Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Here's where we struggle.
We don't accept that we're finite human beings, that we're so poor in spirit.
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All we can do is pay attention to this moment.
That's how poor we are.
So we don't accept that.
A lot of times as human beings, all humans do not accept our finiteness.
And we've tried to take on more than we can carry.
And it overwhelms us and paralyzes us.
So here are the things.
Any time that I am dragging the past into the present.
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That's a trap, because I only live in this.
I'm so poor in spirit.
I'm so finite. I don't live in the past.
I only live right here in this moment.
And if I'm thinking of the hurt that I caused somebody else
or the hurt that they caused to me and I'm ruminating in that
and I'm absorbed in that, I can't be present
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to all of the kingdom of heaven positioned for me to receive in this moment.
So blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven,
because all of us, whoever you are, whether you believe that you fought
that in Jesus and follow him or not, the kingdom of heaven is not discriminatory.
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It's unconditional and it's positioned for every person to receive.
And what you receive, you reflect and what you receive, you give.
And so noticing the things in this present moment
that are keeping me from seeing the kingdom of heaven positioned for me is critical.
Critical. And this is where a lot of people get stuck.
So the past is one of those things that we start ruminating on
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and get stuck in in this moment and miss what's right in front of us.
The future worrying about the future.
We don't have control of the future. We live right now.
And when we're worried, I'm not saying dreaming,
dreaming about the future is something different,
but here's the difference between worry and dreaming.
One we feel fear and the other we don't.
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One we feel hope.
That's not something negative.
That's a beautiful thing, but it's still something to invite God into.
When we make our decisions based on what other people are thinking
or how they'll respond, if we do this, we all do this, right?
We all do this stuff.
We go, OK, I'm going to do this.
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But if I do this, what's my wife going to do?
Right. That's actually not acknowledging our poverty of spirit
that we're not in control.
This really comes down to we get stuck in trying to control things
that are not ours to control, including what's good and evil.
That's not ours to control.
So anything that we're trying to control,
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that we do not have control of people, outcomes, future, past,
even regret of this moment being not what I want it to be, we get stuck.
And yet God will make us aware of where we're stuck if we'll let him.
And with an invitation, hand that over to him,
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receive his rest and be able to see the kingdom of heaven.
The beauty of all of who God is, all of his peace, all of his joy,
all of his love, all of his kindness, his humility, his wisdom,
his strength, power and authority all positioned for us to receive.
Then we flow one step at a time.
We flow in that and it opens things wide open.
(54:05):
Confidence, hope.
Yeah, it's just a beautiful way of living.
Yes, I don't want to live any other way.
Yeah, it's a great mental picture.
You you touched on a lot of things that I kind of things that we just accept.
And I want to talk about how
(54:26):
this is really confusing, how you mentioned God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit.
And so Christianity has a triune God, a three in one God.
And so to put out a couple of definitions, there's monotheistic and polytheistic.
And that just means you believe in one God, monotheistic or polytheistic.
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You believe in many gods.
And so Christians say that they're a monotheistic religion.
And with the Father, Son and Holy Spirit,
how is Christianity a monotheistic religion
when it seems like there's almost three God figureheads?
Right. Because the difference is when you define God as an individual
(55:13):
or as a community. Right.
Like, OK, the difference between polytheistic is that these are different
individual gods, like let's talk about Greek Greek mythology,
because that's a fun one. Right.
And in that they did believe in all these gods.
Those gods were very much individuals
(55:33):
and and often at war with each other. Right.
They they were not one.
Right. So when I when I think of God now
in my and every guy, if God is infinite,
any any analogy we give is going to break down at some point.
(55:55):
Right. Because if God is infinite, he is beyond description,
but he makes himself approachable to us to understand.
And so I'll make this bold statement.
The Trinity, the God of the Trinity is the only way that love exists.
If we don't have a triune God, love is not real.
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And here's why I say that, because the defining thing about love,
love has to have
an object to love and a lover.
Because love, in a in its essence, love is
a person giving themselves away
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to such a degree it costs them for the sake of others.
Love is giving, it's giving ourselves away.
And the only way that love can exist in this world
and there can be a God of love if he is one community,
not one individual, because if he's infinite,
(57:00):
if he's infinite, there's a point where creation didn't exist.
Right. So the creation is an infinite.
If we go by the biblical narrative, the creation came into existence
at one point that God designed it to come into existence.
So there was a point where there was no creation.
There was no other beings.
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So if God's one individual and he is love, how does that work?
Because God has that there has to be the lover has to have an object to love.
And the only way that love, God can be love and love can truly exist
in a world where God rules is if God is is a community.
And so we we why is family and community so important to human beings?
(57:46):
Well, the Bible tells us we're made in the image of God.
And here is where the image of God comes into being,
that we long for family and community because that's who God is.
I define God as one family of three individuals
who so give themselves away to each other and not only give themselves away
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to each other, but fully receive and accept each other.
There are no walls and barriers between them that they are one
in the sight of everyone else who looks at them,
because even though they're three individuals, they operate in one
because there's no barrier.
There's nothing between them.
They fully so give themselves away
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to each other and receive each other that they're one.
The greatest power in the universe is vulnerability and humility
because that's who God is.
He is vulnerably giving himself to himself, to each individual within that family.
And therefore, the amazing thing is they make humans
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and invited us into that family.
To fully be receive all of them
that of themselves are giving us and fully give themselves
fully a human, fully giving themselves to God and receiving the fullness of God.
God, this is the cross.
Brian, for me, this is the cross.
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God himself came into this world
and handed himself so fully over,
vulnerably over to human beings.
He let us do whatever we wanted to him and we killed him.
And here's the thing.
That vulnerability is the superpower of the universe
because it killed death itself.
He handed himself over.
(59:35):
We nailed him to a cross.
But because he was God, it couldn't hold him down.
And he rose from the dead.
And if anyone wants to challenge Christianity,
that's that's the thing to challenge the resurrection.
Right. And that is the it is the crucifixion.
Resurrection is the the epitome of Christianity.
It's what makes this faith different than every other
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that God himself didn't set, didn't wait for us to come to him.
He so loved us.
He came and gave himself fully to us right where we were.
Came into our brokenness and our hurt and gave himself up for us.
And that literally changed the game.
And destroyed death, it killed death.
(01:00:21):
So this is why in a moment, like he died in a moment, he was hurt.
He was wounded by us to the point of death.
But that was a momentary thing.
And now we have an eternal life that lasts forever
because he gave himself up.
So in a moment, when I'm going to be vulnerable,
there's a risk to open my heart up to another human being.
(01:00:43):
Creates a firing lane right to my heart.
And it's painful at times.
But those are momentary things.
Here's the strength of that over time.
Even the people that fire their their their guns at my heart.
If I continue to stay vulnerable and humble and walk in that
and receive in that place of hurt, receive all God's healing
(01:01:06):
and look to him for my healing and look to him for my my strength.
People see a vulnerable person and they become vulnerable.
Mm hmm. They over and not at once.
But the people, there's people that like, what are we all looking for?
We're attracted to vulnerability, not and not false vulnerability
(01:01:29):
and not false humility, but true humility and vulnerability.
We're attracted to that.
We feel safe around those people because it's the greatest power.
It wins people over.
Because that's how God won us over, because that's who he is.
And only the triune being the triune idea of God.
(01:01:50):
That's the only place that that exists.
Love and vulnerability and humility only exist in that place.
Yeah, that kind of makes sense.
I felt like your Greek analogy was was really good.
Like, as far as like the identities, like
Greeks, they're all over their own domain, like whatever they are.
(01:02:10):
You use God of thunder or.
I don't know, maybe that's for I don't know.
It's falling apart.
But anyways, they're they they have like their individual lane in which they stay in.
And so this actually might be kind of like a flawed question.
But like, what is because there's three like, what would be like the role of like God?
(01:02:33):
What's the role of Jesus?
What's the role of the Holy Spirit?
Well, it's interesting.
You would say that because my analogy, again, and they all break down, right?
So let's just remember that God is infinite.
It goes beyond what any human can.
If every human who ever lived, who ever experienced God
(01:02:54):
was all lined up and gave their description, it would still fall short.
So let's let's keep that in mind, right?
So a little grace there, yeah.
So yes, please.
So at me and my 55 years of life, I don't have all the answers, but I have
I can I can at least comprehend it enough to this point to go.
(01:03:16):
God is a family.
And there's the father, there's the son and the Holy Spirit,
and it's a reflection that we still live in as a family.
So you have the father, you have the son,
as God describes Jesus as the son, and you have the Holy Spirit,
who's called the comforter and the counselor.
(01:03:38):
Who does that sound like in a typical family?
Generally speaking, a mother, right?
The counselor and the comforter.
Right. The helper.
And which is interesting, because when Eve was created out of Adam,
she was called this helper.
And the Holy Spirit is also called the helper.
(01:03:59):
God goes beyond gender and not like, again, he's
he is he is there's a word that says God is beyond us.
Right. And yet he makes himself approachable.
And so he's he's beyond the fullness of my understanding,
but he chooses to reveal himself to us in ways that we can understand.
(01:04:21):
And so I would say if we were understanding
the triune God as a family, they each have their roles, like in a family.
And they each do their part and they each help each other as well.
And they fully give each other everything they need.
And they work together as one.
(01:04:42):
And so that's why we see them as one God.
And I would and they eat, but they each have their roles.
And just like in a family, no one's better than anyone else in a family.
They're just different roles that we all take on, you know.
And and so this is, again, different is not about being good
(01:05:02):
or evil or better or worse, it's about different is different.
And so within the God, within that idea of Trinity, we have
we have them having different roles with each other and with us.
And and and so and then they create us to have different roles
(01:05:22):
so that we can appreciate and love and, you know, each other in our differences.
I don't know if that makes any sense, but there you go, that's what I got.
Yeah, it does. I kind of want to hone in on like the Holy Spirit.
And this has been like something that like I've long since struggled with
as far as the Holy Spirit.
(01:05:45):
So like the Holy Spirit, like you said, is the helper.
And that's that's kind of like how we.
Decipher the Bible a little bit is that the Holy Spirit is helping us decipher it.
And even though humans, there's a lot of variability with us, like God is a constant.
(01:06:05):
And so if all of us have the Holy Spirit, the same Holy Spirit,
the constant Holy Spirit, how is there so much disagreement in the church?
Like like we can go to like specific scriptures,
but there just seems like there's like, well, biblical scholars,
they disagree on this, it could mean this, it could mean this.
It's like, like, how come with if we're deciphering things,
(01:06:30):
like with the help of God himself, the person who came up with everything?
Like, how is there so much disagreement?
OK, this goes back to that idea of different, right?
And one of the traps we fall into that really gets us
messed up as human beings is different is as bad.
(01:06:50):
And everybody has their journey that if we're all
unique individuals and God is relating to each person as an individual,
we all have our different journeys.
And so we all experience God in very
maybe common ways and like connecting ways that we can we can like
(01:07:13):
we can relate to, which is why we're even having this conversation,
is because if if that if we couldn't if we were just so unique
and different from each other and there was no commonality,
why are we even having this conversation?
Right. It's like why? Right.
At the same time, there's a uniqueness about each person
(01:07:34):
and each person's journey that is different from other people.
And we get into one of these traps where we see different as bad.
And when we can't understand like
what what God is doing with another human being, we have two reactions.
We either accept that and seek to understand that and learn from that
(01:07:55):
or we reject that.
And and this is a trap the enemy has been placing.
There is an enemy and he is.
That's part of the problem is there is an enemy
that we handed over the keys to this world to that God handed us the keys
and we handed them over to him.
And he is a murderer and a liar since the beginning, as Jesus described.
(01:08:19):
And that's why death exists.
That's why we struggled to know the truth from the lies
is because we were lied to in the beginning
and we believe the lie rather than God.
And we walked in that place.
So that means that there's an enemy
who's whispering in our ears to trap us.
There's also the Holy Spirit whispering in our ears to free us.
(01:08:41):
And we all have free will to decide in every moment
to whose voice we're going to listen to and how to identify
the differences between those voices and respond.
And one of the things that makes us different
is is that or let me go back and say that differently. Hang on.
(01:09:02):
One of the things that's beautiful is our differences
that God relates to each one differently.
And while we can learn from each other, we can also we learn to accept
that we have our own journey and God's joy is to lead us on that journey.
It may not look like anyone else is around us, and that's OK.
(01:09:25):
And the and this is where things get one of the biggest traps is
is the understanding the root what's at the root of everything.
Can I can I paint a picture of an analogy that might help?
So think of us, each of us as trees.
And the the fruit of the tree is our is what's visible, right?
(01:09:49):
Like a fruit is visible on the tree to identify that tree.
So our words and our actions.
Our outward decision making the choices we make.
That's the fruit. Now, that fruit is attached to a branch.
And that branch, I would label as emotions.
(01:10:10):
And no matter how logical, we want to paint ourselves as human beings.
And there are some people that are way more logical than others.
But if we're being honest as humans, we make more decisions
in a moment based out of emotion than we want to admit.
That's the branch that holds the fruit.
(01:10:30):
That branch, though, is held in place by a trunk.
Right. And that trunk is our thoughts.
Our thoughts then flow to our emotions, which come in actions.
But underneath all of that, the roots.
That draw in all of the energy that creates
that flows through that trunk into that branch, those branches and into the fruit.
(01:10:53):
The roots are what what it's all about.
And the root of everything is belief.
What do we believe about God, whether he exists or not,
and if he exists, who he is and what we believe about ourselves?
Are the things that really are the nourishment
or the stuff that is actually detrimental to the tree that flows through the tree.
(01:11:18):
And so when it comes down to why there are different
why we disagree and why we fight and why there are all these things
and why if there is a Holy Spirit, why are we not unified?
Is because there are two two sources
of nourishment that we can draw our roots from.
(01:11:41):
And that is the truth of what God is saying
through the Holy Spirit and the lies of the enemy.
And when we buy into the lies of the enemy, even as believers,
his voice comes in and says, through pain, he says, just hold on to that.
That'll teach him nurse that wound, that'll learn him like, come on,
(01:12:03):
that's not even logical, like, yes, this person hurt me
and I'm going to carry it as a vindictive, as a way of being vindictive against them.
They don't care. I mean, I'm carrying the wound, you know,
but that's that voice that comes in and we listen to it.
It traps us. It traps us carrying things that God is asking us to carry.
(01:12:25):
So there's two voices to listen to.
And they really they determine the health of that tree.
That is me. And how well I interact with other trees
and whether we grow our roots together and we be one community or not.
It's an interesting analogy.
(01:12:46):
But like I'm talking more so because we're talking about,
like, where are you getting your nourishments?
And I'm talking about biblical scholars.
So arguably, they would be getting their nourishment
and like the majority of their nourishment from one place.
They're really diving deep into scriptures.
And to just to get into like one point of contention,
a small one would be that women can lead or women cannot lead in church.
(01:13:12):
And so how when you're drawing that same nourishment, keep on the same analogy.
Like, how is there a disagreement in something like that?
When we have the Holy Spirit to help us,
then how come we're reaching different conclusions?
That's a great question.
So there's a couple of things.
One, again, is differences, different.
(01:13:34):
We have different experiences and we have different journey
and our journey with God is in a different place.
So you can have a person who grew up in an Eastern culture
that has, that interprets the Bible differently
than a person in a Western culture.
(01:13:55):
So culture, where we grew up, where we started from,
has a massive impact on how we view our worlds
and what time, like across centuries, what culture,
like the time of that we're living in is very different.
Generations are living in different times.
(01:14:17):
We have different generations growing up from different times
that see things differently.
And unity doesn't come from coming from uniformity.
Unity comes from different people accepting each other's differences.
(01:14:40):
And even if we disagree, being unified in love.
You can disagree with a person and not divide
because they're very different places.
Disagreement is about ideas, its head.
Division is heart.
Do I choose to disagree with this person and love them
and be unified with them and walk with them and learn from them?
(01:15:02):
And what happens when we are in those places?
When we choose to learn from each other and walk with each other,
then we gain so much and we become what that Trinity view is,
is that we become integrated.
Wholeness and harmony is another, like peace, the word peace,
(01:15:23):
which is interesting.
It's the very first word that Jesus used when he rose from the dead.
The word shalom, which we translate as peace.
That's the first word he said to his disciples
when he appeared to them in his resurrection power.
It literally means wholeness, harmony, and integration.
I can disagree with a person and still be unified
(01:15:44):
and whole and harmonious and integrated with them.
That is the beauty of God taking finite human beings
and allowing us to have different experiences
and different interpretations based on our different cultures
and different upbringing and then learning to come together.
It's actually the work of God to lead us to come from different places
(01:16:09):
and walk with each other, even if we disagree.
I do not agree with a lot of my brothers and sisters,
even here on the Central Coast of California.
I have very different views on a lot of different issues,
but I love them and I listen and I learn.
I grow in my journey and they grow in their journey.
(01:16:30):
Our differences are really a gift because God is different and he is complex.
The problem is that when we are not willing to see other people's differences
as different and rather see them as good or bad or right or wrong,
(01:16:51):
it comes down to that initial thing that God told us not to eat from, right and wrong.
That's his job.
If we're falling back into our old patterns of human behavior,
when we have to be the arbiters of what's right and wrong
compared to other people and their cultures
(01:17:11):
and their political views or anything else,
when we give that up, this is the issue.
When we give that up and we're willing to learn and go,
you know what, we're all different.
I can learn from people who are different
and celebrate those differences and learn.
That's where we see God working
and he uses those differences to bring us together.
(01:17:33):
What a wonderful world it is when people of different viewpoints come together
and walk with each other in relationship.
Because if God is relationship and we're all different,
that's where we learn to love each other beyond our differences.
Even if we disagree on theological points
because we grew up in different things,
(01:17:56):
that's actually a beautiful thing
that we come from a different place and we learn from each other.
What if that's all invitation?
What if that's all invitation?
Yeah, I like what you said
or kind of like what you're saying is like,
this kind of falls back to the analogy you keep bringing up
is like it seems like it's a rut, it's trapped to focus on the disagreement.
(01:18:20):
And so instead, you know, it would be better and wiser
instead of spending time on the areas that you disagree,
more so focusing on your relationship with God,
your personal relationship with God and like what is he telling you?
But that brings me to like a really interesting point
because what you said is great and I really like it.
(01:18:42):
I really like looking for unity and looking for ways
that we can agree with each other.
But in the days of social media,
in the days of everyone knows what's right,
everyone is the ultimate truth and you yourself,
you your family being a victim of someone taking advantage of you
and presenting something as truth that's not truth.
(01:19:05):
So how do we make sure that we like don't get tricked?
Someone who, you know, they're like,
wow, this guy, he's got a million followers on Instagram.
He's just really espousing Jesus and like they're different views.
But, you know, like in this hypothetical,
let's just say it's legitimately like a cult.
(01:19:25):
It's like a twisted version of what the scriptures are really saying.
Like how do we make sure that we focus on
or don't get deceived by something that's not true?
That's a great point and that's so important.
That's a great question.
This is not going to be a satisfactory answer.
(01:19:46):
Probably.
Perfect.
But let me start by saying when Jesus,
he said these words that really stick with me,
he said the true worshipers,
they worship in spirit and in truth.
Like we have the scripture,
but our culture is not the same culture of that time
(01:20:08):
and we have to interpret through certain lenses.
So there's a couple of things that will help us.
One is that we let the Holy Spirit,
we ask the Holy Spirit to lead us
and we allow him time to show us,
and I don't mean just at a moment of studying the scriptures.
I mean over a course of a lifetime,
(01:20:30):
we learn to receive the patience of God
that he is not impatient or frustrated with us.
We don't all have the right answers.
We're never all going to,
we're never going to have all the answers.
God is by God and who he is is patient with us.
So we allow the Holy Spirit, we make the time.
And this is one of the traps of the enemy
that really is in our culture these days
(01:20:52):
is the speed of things.
We don't, everything happens so fast
and we have so much access to each other
that if I don't, if I text you
and I don't hear back from you in 20 seconds,
let's be honest, our expectations are
like they have their phone,
I have instant access to every person I text
(01:21:14):
and they should respond to me right away.
The speed at this world that our expectations of
how fast this world is moving
is a detriment to the process of listening to God's voice
and not just being a student of the truth
but being also a student of the Spirit
(01:21:36):
because the true worshippers worship in spirit and truth.
That's one thing is do we learn to practice being still
and allowing him to show us the places
where we're out of alignment with God,
where we're stuck in ruts,
where our thinking and our feelings are lying to us
and we're not handing those over to God,
(01:21:57):
where we're carrying people, right?
All those things keep us from hearing God's voice clearly.
And so as we learn to practice slowing down
and having these spiritual practices,
they help us hear God's voice more clearly.
And the other thing is when you're studying scripture,
there are things called,
we won't get into it right here,
(01:22:18):
but there's things called hermeneutics.
It's the art and science of studying scripture
and interpreting scripture correctly.
And there are rules that are really helpful
when you're reading the Bible
to get through a personal interpretation
to see and understand what was being written
(01:22:39):
is like, who is the writer?
What's their culture?
Who's the audience?
Why are they writing to them?
Another hermeneutical thing is
don't take a scripture out of context,
like interpret scripture with other scriptures.
I was just having this conversation
with somebody yesterday about seeing a scripture
(01:22:59):
in a certain light through other scriptures.
There's all of these.
So look up hermeneutics.
That's a huge advantage
that when people take the time
to learn those kinds of the art and science
of studying the Bible, that helps.
Understanding, the last one is understanding.
Again, I bring this back,
the importance of there's an enemy who is a liar
(01:23:22):
and he is active in our lives.
And he gets us oftentimes into a lie
that we believe about God and ourselves.
And it will tempt us to not go to God,
like Adam and Eve did not go to God
when he called them a liar in the garden.
So they went and did the thing.
(01:23:43):
They listened to the lie and they acted on it.
And everything went crazy because of that.
What if we learn to notice the things
that we're struggling with
and give them to God and ask,
is this the truth or lie?
And sit with that and be still
and make that time and use scripture
and learn hermeneutics.
All of these things come together
to noticing what's happening in us
(01:24:05):
that helps us, little by little,
move in our maturity
and move into more of the fullness of life
and more into resting
and giving Jesus our burdens
and resting in him and resting in him
even when we disagree with other people
and resting in him even when we're confused
(01:24:27):
and we don't know the next step
and waiting on him for that
and trusting his patience.
One of the things that helps me
is when I fall into temptation
and I start, if I listen to the lies of the enemy,
I fall into temptation.
On the other side of that,
he gets me again by telling me,
oh, you see, you're not a true believer.
Blah, blah, blah, right?
(01:24:47):
Shame and guilt come in.
And here's what God has told me recently,
Brian, in the last year.
Kurt, how long have you lived on the earth?
55 years.
How long has the enemy been a student
of humanity for thousands of years?
Do you really think that you're not going to fall
into his deceptions at times?
(01:25:08):
He's a master manipulator
and a master deceiver
who's been a student of humanity
for thousands of years and you've lived 55.
So why are you beating yourself up
because you fell into a deception?
It's going to happen, relax.
And that is, if I could say one final word in this,
this is like to kind of encapsulate everything,
(01:25:30):
is do you know who Dallas Willard is?
So Dallas Willard was this beautiful human being
who wrote tons of books
about spiritual transformation,
about growing into Jesus, right?
Maturing into Jesus.
And he was once asked,
Dallas, if you could describe Jesus in one word,
(01:25:55):
what would you, what would be the word?
That's a big, big thing, right?
Like, how do you distill
the God of the universe into one word?
And this was his answer, relaxed.
That's God.
And if we could believe that, back to the roots,
(01:26:16):
if we learn to really believe
that God approaches us
from a restful and relaxed place
and worship, the little definition of worship
is a response to God.
And if God approaches us with in a relaxed posture always,
our worship is to respond by relaxing into him.
(01:26:37):
Yeah, I like that.
And that answer really tied back into the other one
about scripture as well, like, kind of,
it all boils down to relationship.
And so where are you spending time?
You can do your hermeneutics.
You can do that and like for yourself,
(01:26:59):
you can spend that relationship like for yourself
and see what's true, what's God saying true to you.
You know, you're spending time in that relationship
so you know what he's saying, you know what he wants.
And what you don't know isn't important
and you don't need to sit and spend time and waste time.
Like if someone is saying like a certain doctrine
(01:27:21):
that you don't know,
well, then you don't necessarily have to listen to it
or figure everything out for yourself
just so long as like you're spending time with God
in that relationship with him.
And yeah, that's relaxed.
That's one of the things that helps me, Brian,
is like if I don't have an answer right now,
(01:27:43):
I used to freak out and like that's Western.
That's Western theology right there.
That's a Western mindset,
not an Eastern Christian mindset, it's a Western.
If I don't have the answer, there's something wrong.
Eastern philosophy is when a mystery appears,
it's like I get to go on this journey with God
(01:28:04):
and see what he does.
We freak out over not having answers
and Eastern mindset relaxes into it.
And that is the thing is God has said to me recently,
Kurt, if you don't have an answer to something,
do you think I'm mad at you over that?
Who's the one who gives you the answers?
If you don't have an answer, I haven't given it to you
(01:28:27):
and I'm totally relaxed in that place.
So relax and move with me and just relax into me.
So Frankie says relax and Jesus says relax.
Yes, I literally, one of the things,
(01:28:51):
there's a scripture that says,
clothe yourselves in Jesus,
clothe yourselves in Christ,
and you will not fulfill,
you will not gratify the sinful desires of the flesh.
This idea of clothing ourselves, God is life.
And if we just choose to give him our full selves
(01:29:11):
every day, like to try and live in that triune life
of giving ourselves fully to God
and receiving himself fully, we'll relax into things.
And there's one of the things that helps me in that,
one of the prayers I pray,
and I clothe myself in Jesus every morning.
And I literally pray this every morning
when I first wake up, my first 22nd prayer is,
(01:29:33):
God, as soon as I wake up, I have a commitment
and it's a spiritual practice, not a spiritual perfection,
but it's my practice that I don't do perfectly to pray,
God, Heavenly Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit,
I give you access to all of who I am emotionally,
mentally, physically, relationally,
socially, sexually, financially, and spiritually.
(01:29:55):
You have access to all of me.
Come into any area of me you want to,
and I clothe myself in the fullness of your glory
and your life and your freedom for this day
and your rest towards me.
That's how I start my day.
And it is a 22nd or less prayer that starts my day.
And then when I get time, I go be still with him.
(01:30:16):
And one of the things, in my stillness,
I clothe myself in more and more stuff.
And I have more aspects of God I admire
that when I have more time that I clothe myself
and before I go through the rest of my day.
And one of those is quiet patience.
I clothe myself in quiet patience.
When I don't have the answers,
(01:30:37):
I can wait and watch and learn.
And it is a relaxed place.
Yeah, I love it, Kurt.
You've been in ministry for over 20 years.
You're a certified life coach.
You're a certified spiritual director,
meaning you have the training and expertise
to help people navigate the complexities of being human
(01:30:58):
and help facilitate people to have conversations
that can lead to more spiritual freedom.
If people wanted to reach you, where can they do that?
Yeah, they can reach me just simply at this email.
It's pastorkurt, P-A-S-T-O-R-K-U-R-T, @ mycoastal.org.
(01:31:19):
Perfect. Thank you for leaving your last name out of it
and not confusing people more.
But honestly, Kurt, this was just a great conversation.
Like you said, it's more Western Christianity
to where you have to have all the answers.
You're my go-to person for all the answers.
And this is a great conversation,
and I really appreciate the time of you sitting down
(01:31:40):
and willing to have it with me and talk out.
First, air out a little vulnerability
in the beginning of the conversation,
just some family stuff,
and just put that beautiful journey of redemption
and how Jesus can redeem even the worst parts of your life.
And so just, yeah, thanks for taking the time to sit here
and talk with me.
(01:32:02):
Oh, it's my pleasure, man.
Thank you for asking me.
(01:32:30):
I want to suck your bleeeehhh.
Oh no, it's the sun.
Just pulling your leg.
That old party pooper hasn't derailed my daytime plans
ever since I discovered Twilight Sunscreen,
specifically their SPF 1000 collection.
(01:32:52):
Oh, what's this?
I'm getting a note from the Revelizations marketing team
that I am legally obligated to mention
that Twilight Sunscreen has no affiliation
with the Twilight franchise.
The Twilight series, what a ridiculous premise.
Those books and movies set our kind back thousands of years.
(01:33:15):
Why would anyone choose a werewolf over a vampire?
I'm 3,000 years old and not a single wrinkle.
While werewolves have the skin of Chewbacca,
I have the skin of a 25-year-old human.
Sure, some of that's due to a balanced diet of human blood
with, mind you, all prey over the age of 18.
(01:33:36):
Im not a monster, after all.
But mostly, my flawless, ageless skin
is due to the sun damage-defying formula of Twilight Sunscreen.
Twilight Sunscreen is sustainably manufactured
from pasture-raised unicorns.
Once euthanized, their bodies get donated to a glue factory.
(01:33:57):
But their horns?
The horns, which are the main active ingredient
in Twilight Sunscreen, get ground down to a fine dust.
From there, it's mixed with a litany of other,
less sustainable, borderline unethical ingredients,
which are then molded into the perfect addition
to any beauty regimen.
I never leave my lair without a healthy slathering
(01:34:20):
of SPF 1000 Twilight Sunscreen.
Thanks, Twilight Sunscreen.
Twilight Sunscreen.
Goth kid approved since 1992.