October 14, 2025 • 31 mins
On this episode, we’ll look at the New Markets Tax Credit (NMTC) and the opportunities it could offer you. We’ll discuss changes to the credit due to the One Big Beautiful Bill Act (OB3) and some practical considerations for businesses. We welcome Wes Ernst and Mike Roney with the NMTC team at Forvis Mazars for a unique perspective on the incentive.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
On thisepisode, we'll look into the New Markets
Tax Creditand what opportunities it could offer you.
We'll talk about changesto the credit from OB3
and get into some practical considerationsfor your business.
We're joined by Wes Ernst and Mike Roneyfrom the New Markets Tax Credits team here
at Forvis Mazars for a uniquely helpfullook into the incentive.
(00:21):
From your one stop for taxupdates and analysis, I'm Iris.
And I'm Eric.
It's Tuesday October 14thand this is Tackling Tax.
(00:48):
Hello everybody
and welcometo a very special edition of Tackling Tax.
I am joined today by my friendEric Soderberg, who,
believe it or not,is the magic behind our podcast.
He's our producer.
Devin was stuck with a client today,so he has briefed Eric fully,
(01:10):
and Eric has agreed to jump into help with our Fast Four stories today.
Eric, welcome to Tackling Tax.
Iris, it is great to be here.
A little weird to be on this sideof the mic, but, let's make some magic.
It's going to be great.
So, yes, before we get startedwith our much anticipated guests,
we always start our show
(01:31):
with the four stories that we thinkmight be most impactful to you.
So let's jump right in to these FastFour stories of the week.
Well, at least asat the time of this episode's recording,
the country is still in the midstof a shutdown.
With Senate Republicansand Democrats in a gridlock over
(01:52):
the inclusion of healthcare considerationsin the concurring resolution,
we seem to be making little progressto reaching an agreement.
While we have seen three Democrats agreeto vote for a quote “clean CR”
last week, some were surprised to seeRepresentative Marjorie Taylor Greene
say that she would support the ACAtax credits.
Iris, what do you thinkit's going to take to get something
(02:14):
passed and, you know,get the government reopened here?
Yeah, that's the million dollar
question, Eric,and one we'd only be speculating at.
Some are saying that it'd take thosein the military missing their paycheck,
and that that would instigatesome sort of agreement.
But we'll see.
The longest governmentshutdown to date was back in 2019.
(02:34):
So during Trump's first presidential term,and that was 35 days.
So we're still a ways off from that,
coming in at 14 dayswhen this episode is released.
All right.
Well, on a related note,
the IRS has furloughed aroundhalf of its employees given the shutdown.
They have, however, keptwhat they deem as essential employees.
(02:56):
These include folks for the upcomingfiling deadline, implementing
new tax laws, and the team tasked with ITmodernization.
So, Eric, I'm sure you're aware
because as part of this firm,it's impossible not to know.
But the 10/15 deadline is coming up
and is that going to be unaffectedby the furlough?
(03:17):
Should our folks continue to be filingthe same deadline as usual? Yes.
Make sure that you are on schedulefor that.
There is no statutorychange to the requirement to file
by the upcoming deadlinesdespite the furlough.
I think a big question too, is IRS exams.
I guess really that question is twofold.
(03:40):
What about if you're currently under exam?
And then what about the potentialfor new exams upcoming?
That is a great question.
We have heard from our friends at the IRSthat while they are furloughing
some of the agents responsiblefor handling exams, team leaders
have now been deemed essentialand will continue with the current exams.
Now for new exams,depending on how long this lasts,
(04:02):
that will be an interesting question
to see if the rate of exams they take onwill be affected.
In another piece of IRS news,there is now a new role:
the CEO of the IRS.
Okay, hold on, hold on.
Did they just change the titleof the commissioner to CEO
or what's happening there?
Yeah, very valid question.
(04:23):
And actually,no, there is still a commissioner,
but this new role is being takenby Frank Bisignano,
the commissionerof the Social Security Administration.
Of course, this fact has many people
wondering if there will be changesto policy and information sharing,
given this choice of leaderand what implications that could have.
(04:44):
And finally,
it is currently possible for the IRSto levy penalties without a jury trial.
But that may change, Iris.
Given the most recent case, Securitiesand Exchange Commission versus Jarkesy.
So, this case went all the wayto the Supreme Court, which held
that in the case of fraud, SEC caseswould have to go to a jury trial.
(05:06):
But that's specific to the SEC, right?
Or did that also involve the IRS?
That's correct.
It is specific to the SECin this case, though, the question is
whether this ruling will beused to set precedent for the IRS as well.
We will have to wait and see.
Very interesting. And Eric, well done.
Devin briefed you well.
(05:28):
Thank you so much for joining usfor our Fast Four.
Stick with us
as we transition to the main portionof our episode, Planning Insights.
On today's segment
of Planning Insights,we're joined by Wes Ernst and Mike Roney.
Wes Ernst is a partner in our assurancepractice out of Cincinnati.
(05:51):
When not working with clientsin the healthcare sector, he is busy
helping them with the New MarketsTax Credit,
or shortened to NMTC,as we'll call it here.
Mike Roney is a director
with the firm who focuses mostall of his time with NMTC within
the firm's federal specialty practice.
Welcome to Tackling Tax, Mike and Wes.
(06:11):
Thanks for having us, Iris.
Yeah. So hey, Wes, let's back up a minute.
For those not familiar, could you give ussort of just a high-level
summary of what NMTC is and whyit could be an opportunity for companies?
Sure, and thanks, Iris.
You know, the New MarketsTax Credit program was really Congress's
(06:33):
solve 25 years ago
to steer private investment to otherwiseeconomically distressed areas.
And the way that they dothat is the provision of a tax credit
to attract outside investor capital.
At its heart,it's really a community benefits program.
So the general idea is that by
(06:55):
bringing together stakeholdersacross a couple of different fronts,
what you get is investment in projects
and other such items in communitiesthat will allow them to sort of break
the cycle of povertyor the cycle of unemployment
or what have you, and really helpthose communities thrive.
Going forward.
So, I guess with that backdropsounds like a fantastic
(07:19):
sort of conceptual program.
Mike,are there certain kinds of tax payers?
So like when I'm saying kinds, I’mthinking partnerships, C-corp,
individuals,those kinds of things, that are eligible?
Or is it a benefitpotentially for everybody?
It's kind of both.
So on the tax side, pertnerships, C-corps,individuals, they can avail themselves
(07:42):
of the tax credit that is in the nameNew Markets Tax Credit.
So, as long as you havefederal liability,
because this is a federal program,that is large enough to utilize
that tax credit,so long as you're able to participate,
you can definitely take advantageof that tax credit.
The benefit can have more for just ourour audience participants sake.
(08:04):
It's much more of a funding programfor community benefits.
And kind of, as Wes alludedto, yes, tax credit in the name,
that tax credit is designed to driveinvestment into these low income areas.
But really for our audience andfor the companies that participate here,
it's really a funding mechanismto help them offset costs
(08:25):
and help them to reallocatecapital elsewhere, helping their ROI,
helping their bottom linewhile also helping them build a project
that is advantageous and helpful forthe community that that it's located in.
Does that mean that they haveto be involved in developing real estate,
or can you just decide, hey,I'm an investor with some liquidity here.
(08:48):
Is this somethingthat I could be involved in
or how does the wholefunding piece work then?
So you mentioned real estate there.
I think that's maybe a misconceptionof the program, kind of like
the way that the tax credit is named.
There's a lot of misnomers,but there's some nuance here.
Most people, when they look at a communityor they see development,
(09:09):
what optically helps themis to see a building
being built or seeing, you know,
construction equipment out theremoving dirt.
And we think, oh, that's development.That's a benefit.
The New Markets program does that,but I'd say the majority, and
as of the last data from the government,from the Treasury Department,
(09:30):
roughly 55% of these dollarsgo to non-real estate projects.
So, when you think about that,think about equipment,
and think about other areasof spending for a company, for a project,
for a community that are,yes, development, it can be development,
it can be real estate,but often, more often than not, it goes
to other usesor other kind of capital projects.
(09:54):
They're not necessarily real estate.
So I think you mentioned transferability
when we were talking about this,you know, preparing for this podcast.
What was the point you wanted to makeabout transferability in this sense?
So the credit itself, and that's kind ofwhere we talk about the credit part.
And this may be where the discussionwill turn a little bit for, you know, your
(10:18):
the audience on kind of,
yes, it's a program for funding,but it's also a tax credit.
How does that tax credit work?
The New Markets Tax Credit,the actual tax credit that's received
as a result of these investments,goes to a corporate investor typically.
And I think in this spaceyou're going to see the tax credit
at issueget gobbled up by 5 or 6 large banks.
(10:40):
You know, when you think aboutthe large banks in the United States,
think of Chase, think of USBank, think of Capital One, etc.
that'skind of where the tax credits going.
But even those banks that large of a size,
they don't have an unlimitedfederal liability.
So the tax credits can be transferred,
on the secondary marketsyndication to others.
(11:01):
And so that's maybe where, you know, othersmaller banks, other individuals, other,
you know, investors might have an appetitefor not necessarily a full New Markets
Tax Credit project with a large liability,but a piece of that, and that's maybe
where they can avail themselves of a taxcredit to claim on their federal return.
That is not necessarilyas a direct participant
(11:21):
in the New Markets program,but as a secondary participant.
That's super helpful.
I think, Wes, turning to you.
You know, I've heard about the New MarketsTax Credit for a while.
It's not new, right?
I mean, hasit been successful in the past?
Yeah. No, it's not new.
I mentioned in the opening comments
it was originally enactedas part of legislation back in 2000.
(11:46):
So we're coming up on twoand a half decades now, and I think maybe
just a little bit of extra orientation.
The annual funding amount is $5
billion—that's with a B—dollarsin New Markets Tax Credit allocation.
And just so the listeners kind of havea sense of what does that translate to
kind of down market,which is roughly 500 projects a year.
(12:08):
So even if you went further, you couldtalk about it on a state-by-state basis.
As Mike said, it's federal.
So there's no sort of state-specificrequirements, but roughly ten projects
per state, if you just dida simple average, are going to be somehow
some way getting funding or otherwiseparticipating in this in this program.
(12:29):
And because of sort of the wide, sweepingnature of it all, I mean, it's industry
agnostic.
So it's not like,you know, the investment has to be done
in healthcare or manufacturingand that's it.
It is largely
something that can be steeredtowards any project type, whether that's,
you know, being sponsored by a for-profitor not-for-profit company
(12:49):
doesn't really matter.
I mean, there are a few exceptions,just like
there are in any type of program. But,
you know, in large part,
anyone who has a project in a qualifyingarea can take advantage of that.
And because of that sort of elasticityand that that flexibility,
it has been very, very successful.
(13:09):
I mean, some of the numbers you seeare things such as eight dollars
of sort of returnfor every dollar of tax credit allocated
and several hundred million dollarsworth of square footage
that's been constructed over the timeperiod that, again, at its heart,
has all been around the idea of drivingeconomic activity
(13:32):
and economic benefit in low-incomeand otherwise distressed communities.
And Iris, I think Wes makes a point thereto distinguish,
yes, it's a tax credit program,
but as we mentioned before,it's a community benefits funding program.
So you don't have to be a taxpayerto avail yourself of the program.
(13:55):
That's why the nonprofit space, it'svery powerful for them.
It's powerful for for-profits becauseit helps, you know, reallocate capital.
So I just want to make that distinction
and clarificationthat, yes, tax credit in the name,
but you don't have to be a taxpayer.
And nonprofits are a great candidatefor project funding through this program.
Yeah, that is a great distinction.
(14:15):
Well, it sounds like it's doing welland has done well.
And that leads me to,
I think I've heard it's in OB3,the One Big Beautiful Bill Act.
Mike, you're the tax guy.
This is a tax bill.
What changed with it, If anything, in OB3?
So OB3 was greatfor the New Markets program.
(14:36):
I don't know if it's actually greatfor others, but, well, that remains to be
seen.
For New Marketsitself, OB3 made our program permanent.
Up until this pointit had been subject to reauthorization.
Over its life the last 25 years,eight times it had been reauthorized.
So I guess the old phrase goesninth time was the charm.
So we have a permanent program.
(14:58):
It's going to be funded at $5 billionwith a B for the next foreseeable future.
There may be kind of one pointto make there, though.
We do have a new award roundcoming up later this fall
that is going to be $10 billion of annual
funding, or not annual funding,$10 billion of funding for this round,
which is just, we knew,the industry knew that the cap was coming.
(15:21):
The program was going to expireat the end of this year, 2025. So,
in all the wisdom of the
Treasury Department,they just cobbled together
the rest of the dollarsthat were available.
We've got $10 billioncoming down the street.
But the point is, going forward, it'sgoing to be $5 billion annually.
That's great news.
$10 billion dollars is a lot of dollars.
(15:41):
So with that 10 billion Wes,how do we know
what areas qualifyfor that amount of money?
So, you know, we talked aboutthe sort of the low income side of things.
It's really based on census tract.
So T-R-A-C-T,census tract, obviously whenever they do
the decennial census, they're,they're counting population, but
(16:04):
there are a number of other itemsthat are getting categorized
and sort of fed into the data machineby the US Census Bureau during that time.
And so as part of that, they will come upwith sort of certain criteria
that makes you eligible to put a projectin a New Market-eligible zone.
(16:24):
You know, roughly 40% of
the census tracts are qualified,
and you can find those onwhat's called the CDFI website.
So the CDFI fund is an agency within U.S.
Treasury that is sort of the oversightmechanism of the program.
And they have a free map.
It doesn't require any sortof special access or anything like that.
(16:47):
And you can go and put in an address.
If you're wondering
if you have a project that's eligible,you can type in the address of where
that project might be, and it'll tell youwhether you're sort of in or out.
And that is an importantdistinction, which is
it very much is a you have to
be on the right side of the streetkind of item.
And so, you know, making sure that the project is,
(17:12):
in fact, in an eligible zone is very,very important on the front end
because otherwise you end upsort of spending a lot of time and effort
only to realize down,you know, later on that it's no good.
And so Mikeand I, when we often field questions from
from individualsinterested and in, in participation,
our very first question is well,do you have an address
(17:33):
because that's going to drive a lotof what happens from that point forward.
So I guess that begs the question.
I'm CFO sitting in my chair.
How do I figure out how to participate,whether it be,
getting those downstreamtax credits, Mike, as you said,
or participating in a way of you'regetting funding or something like that,
(17:56):
like what's my stepone that y'all would recommend?
So it sort of depends on which side of thethe house you're on.
If you're a company
who is looking to investin a significant capital project
of some form or fashion,or just in general terms,
you know, your first step is determiningwhere is that project going to be located.
(18:20):
And then kind of what
is the
sources and uses side of that project.
And what I mean bythat is the the program requires
sort of a minimum spend in order for itto, we often say
the juice to be worth the squeeze,because there's just a lot of kind of
legal paperwork and other thingsthat are important to get to get done.
(18:42):
So you want a minimum spend.
We usually say 5 million or more.
If you're talking about a project,but checking eligibility
and then starting to firm up, thingslike what's my overall project budget?
Is it $10 million? Is it $15 million?
You know,and what is this project going to do,
especiallywhat is it going to do for the community?
(19:03):
Is that it's going to create jobsfor individuals in that area?
Is that it's going to produceother economic return of some form
or fashion that once one projectgets built, you know, another one will?
Is it going to provide healthcare servicesthat otherwise people
in that low-income areaare driving 75 miles to otherwise obtain?
(19:28):
So that's sort of the start of it,which is I've got a project of some mass.
It's in a qualifying zone,and I have clear and distinct
benefits for that particular community.
That's sort of on the company'ssponsorship side.
And Mike, maybe you want to address thethe tax side.
(19:48):
So Wes, on the, kind of, the taxcredit side or what I might think about
is the investor side, the investor,as we mentioned, one of the large banks.
So think of it as maybe Chase Bankin this scenario, they are seeking
those projects to invest inor maybe to think about a different way
to provide some capitalinto that community,
(20:11):
into that projectthat would not have been there before.
So they also kind of look atthe same function or look at the project
and evaluate it in a very similar way,kind of where is it located,
what are the community benefits and doesit meet their investment criteria.
In the past you've seen kind of itit mirrors
kind of what the administration is doing,whatever that current administration is.
(20:31):
So, you know, in the 2008 time frame,we saw a lot of healthy foods initiatives.
In the first Trump
administration, we saw a lot of domesticmanufacturing initiatives.
Under Biden, we saw a lot of,you know, healthcare-focused.
And then now we're we're seeing a lot of,you know, investment groups
and communitydevelopment entities seek rural projects,
(20:53):
you know, whether that'd be ruralhealthcare, rural manufacturing as well.
That's not
a directive from the governmentby any means.
But I think it's just a lot of people
trying to read the tea leavesa little bit and going kind of where,
where we might be successfulif we allocate our dollars.
And ultimately these groups,these investors want to you
you'll be able to do this
over and over againto one, help the communities, but also,
(21:15):
you know,take advantage of the tax credits.
So, you know, we're coming up to year-endplanning, right?
And folks are trying to think abouthow to wisely use
their money in plans near- and long-term.
Is this somethingthat they could have a benefit next year
if they invest by the year end,or is there a longer kind of lag?
(21:39):
What's the timeframe for wherethey can get a return on their investment?
That's a great question. So
the New Markets Tax Credit program,
it's not necessarilya a risk or trap to think about.
It's more so there's a barrier of entryto consider here.
The one of those barriers is we havea finite amount of dollars to go around.
(22:00):
So just because you havea qualified census tract or a qualified
project does not necessarily mean you'regoing to be a receiver of the funding,
not necessarily going to be receiverof the tax credit itself.
And the reason for that is 10 billionsounds like a big number.
5 billion sounds like a big number.
They are.
(22:20):
But we have 50 states,you know, 10 projects per state,
there's not a lot to go around.
So there's, it’s highly competitive.
And so because of that what we recommendfor companies is go through your normal
development process, go throughyour normal CapEx spending and planning.
If New Markets makes sense,we can come alongside to that project,
(22:43):
help you understandwhether or not New Markets
is possible for this type of project,and whether you should consider it
as part of maybe your investmentor your capital strategy.
The key takeaway to all thatis it's very competitive.
So just because you qualify doesn'tmean you're going to get it.
And then, New Markets is not meant to bea dollar-for-dollar payfor.
Roughly kind of your back of the napkincalculation, depending on your project
(23:08):
size, it'sroughly 15 to 20% of your capital stack.
So it's something to help,you know, take you over the top,
which means that you have to haveyour funding and kind of your development
and your rest of your project scope,
timing, all your parties,all your third-party participants
to help you move the project forward
first before you can truly take advantageof the New Markets program.
(23:32):
So along with the longanswer to your short question, Iris, is
if you get lucky, you can
get some project funding,you know, in the next month or two.
Usually it's a longer life cycle.
I'd say 6 to 9 months worth of planningbefore you can really take advantage of
that funding.
And was there a seven-year somethingthat you were mentioning earlier?
(23:53):
Again, I'm totally interested in whatthat is too.
Well, I think the one thing
that we often forget to mentionis the actual tax credit percentage.
So the New Markets Tax Credit is a 39%tax credit on the underlying investment.
So the quick math isif you have a $10 million investment
that creates $3.9 million in tax credits.
(24:16):
Well, it's not day one you get 39%.
The government and Congresswas pretty smart in figuring out
if you want to have lasting impactin these low-income communities,
you need to have some long-term investmentand some stewardship
and get a group of motivated individualsto stay together.
Well, they decided seven yearsseems like, a long enough time.
(24:39):
So because of that,these transactions, these,
you know, funding packagesstay together for seven years,
which means your tax creditis claimed over seven years.
So 39% not on day one, it's 5% in year
one through three, 6% in yearsfour through seven.
So you know, that's why the syndicationmarket becomes so attractive.
(25:01):
Because you can take a portionof that and,
you know, offload it to another investor,another taxpayer,
or you can keep it for yourself.
But it renews, in a way,it renews itself over seven years.
So these are meant to be stickytransactions
where groups stay togetherand it's not a flash in the pan
or walk awaytype transaction for the community itself.
(25:22):
Does thatmean there's like a recapture provision?
I'm thinking, you know, some of theseclean energy deals that I'm used to like.
That's one of the risks.
Is that in play here?
There is some recapture to consider.
There's only three scenarioswhere that recapture could occur.
And that would require the tax creditsto be given back.
But those are very few and far between.
And then not to have raised a red flagor raise an alarm for the listeners,
(25:45):
but that's the way that the programoperates.
There's some heavy underwriting,the investors being sophisticated
as they are, and the,you know, the projects themselves
get a very strong look under the hood,so to speak, to make sure
that we don't run into that situationwhere a project fails.
That makes a lot of sense.
We're we're in thethe zone of benefits to taxpayers.
(26:11):
Again, my background,
more familiar with the low-incomehousing side of things,
which is also a tax credit,feels similar-ish.
Would there be any overlap or the ability
to take both benefits,or is that not the case?
So, for LIHTC, low-income housing
(26:31):
generally does not mixwell with New Markets.
The reason for that is just basicallyyou have to have some
unique spending on both sides.
So you can't necessarily mix the two.
It's possible for themto be involved in the same project,
but they'd have to becompletely separated.
What we see more often is what we calla twin deal with historic tax credits.
(26:53):
So historic will pay for somethinglike the qualified
real estate expenses,you know, your windows or whatnot.
New Markets can come in and helpwith the underlying equipment or,
you know, some of the real estate concernsthat are there.
So those match up well.
New markets is complicated.
You kind of add some of those other layersit becomes more complex as well.
(27:14):
That's super helpful.
What about state credits?
Is there any state, you've mentioneda few times this is federal, right?
But what about at the state level?
Is there anything that could go alongwell there?
So that's a great point, Iris.
The federal program is kindof the main driver for the whole thing.
And what most people,when they hear a New Markets
Tax Credit program,NMTCs is what you would think.
(27:36):
Several states,let's say, Illinois is one of those.
In the past,Ohio has had some in the past Maine,
Mississippi, Louisiana,they have a state program, as well.
And that just means that as longas you have liability in that state,
you can take advantage of the New Marketsprogram there as well.
(27:57):
It mirrors in most cases,very much the federal program.
The main difference might bewhen you can take your tax credit,
usually there's a bit of a delayand then you take more tax credit
in the years three through seven.
The nice thing about the waythat the state programs work is
you can pair them alongsidewith the federal program.
(28:17):
So oftentimes you see communitydevelopment entities or the investors
who have, a federal focusas well as a state focus,
try to find a projectthat hits both of those buckets,
and they use the same dollarsto increase their benefit.
But at the same time,
helping those low-income communitiesthat are in those states.
Hey, that's all great information.
(28:37):
I think those were the questions
I kind of had top of mind, but obviouslywant to give you guys the opportunity.
Is there anything else, Wes or Mike,that you'd want to touch on?
Just again, our listenerswho are in the decision seats
for a lot of thesecompanies are looking out for,
you know, the futures of their planningopportunities and things like that.
So anything else you'd want to touch on?
(29:00):
You know, I think Iris, Mikeand I often say
to anyone who might be listening,just nothing more than, hey,
having some knowledge about thisprogram is worth
exploring it if you think it might besomething that you could seek in
really any potential future transaction.
And part of the reason for that is itworks really well when you are successful,
(29:24):
but you also know very early
on, typically, if it's not somethingthat's going to be for you.
So in many instances, just
keeping this kind of tucked away in your,your toolbox,
so to speak, as a potential item of useis valuable because other than maybe
needing a little bit of timeto explore with Mike and I or whomever,
(29:47):
it might be, you know,you're not going to necessarily
risk a whole lotby simply trying to see if
what's the art of the possiblefor your particular organization.
And if it does work, it works very,very well in that regard.
Great.
Well, that's a shining endorsement,at least to get in touch with you guys.
(30:08):
I've learned a lot todayand really appreciate your time.
So with that, we are going to move on
to our last segment of the day,our Focused FORsight of the week.
Each episode we'll
bring you what we calla Focused FORsight of the week,
(30:31):
an article or webinarthat might be of interest to you.
This week's Focused FORsight is an article
written by Mike Roney,who you heard from today.
Titled “The New Markets Tax Credit ProgramNow Permanent Under OBBBA,”
this one serves as a good referencepoint to the credit
and what changedwith the recently passed act.
(30:52):
And that's our show. Thanks for joining.
Remember to subscribe and listen infor the next episode of the podcast.
Until next time.
The information set forth
in this podcast contains
the analysis and conclusionsof the panelists based upon his, her
or their research and analysis of industryinformation and legal authorities.
(31:13):
Such analysis and conclusionsshould not be deemed
opinions or conclusions by Forvis Mazarsor the panelists
as to any individual situationas situations are fact-specific.
The listener should performtheir own analysis and form
their own conclusionsregarding any specific situation.
Further, the panelists’ conclusionsmay be revised without notice,
(31:34):
with or without changes in industryinformation and legal authorities.
On thisepisode, we'll look into the New Markets
Tax Creditand what opportunities it could offer you.
We'll talk about changesto the credit from OB3
and get into some practical considerationsfor your business.
We're joined by Wes Ernst and Mike Roneyfrom the New Markets Tax Credits team here
at Forvis Mazars for a uniquely helpfullook into the incentive.
(00:21):
From your one stop for taxupdates and analysis, I'm Iris.
And I'm Eric.
It's Tuesday October 14thand this is Tackling Tax.
(00:48):
Hello everybody
and welcometo a very special edition of Tackling Tax.
I am joined today by my friendEric Soderberg, who,
believe it or not,is the magic behind our podcast.
He's our producer.
Devin was stuck with a client today,so he has briefed Eric fully,
(01:10):
and Eric has agreed to jump into help with our Fast Four stories today.
Eric, welcome to Tackling Tax.
Iris, it is great to be here.
A little weird to be on this sideof the mic, but, let's make some magic.
It's going to be great.
So, yes, before we get startedwith our much anticipated guests,
we always start our show
(01:31):
with the four stories that we thinkmight be most impactful to you.
So let's jump right in to these FastFour stories of the week.
Well, at least asat the time of this episode's recording,
the country is still in the midstof a shutdown.
With Senate Republicansand Democrats in a gridlock over
(01:52):
the inclusion of healthcare considerationsin the concurring resolution,
we seem to be making little progressto reaching an agreement.
While we have seen three Democrats agreeto vote for a quote “clean CR”
last week, some were surprised to seeRepresentative Marjorie Taylor Greene
say that she would support the ACAtax credits.
Iris, what do you thinkit's going to take to get something
(02:14):
passed and, you know,get the government reopened here?
Yeah, that's the million dollar
question, Eric,and one we'd only be speculating at.
Some are saying that it'd take thosein the military missing their paycheck,
and that that would instigatesome sort of agreement.
But we'll see.
The longest governmentshutdown to date was back in 2019.
(02:34):
So during Trump's first presidential term,and that was 35 days.
So we're still a ways off from that,
coming in at 14 dayswhen this episode is released.
All right.
Well, on a related note,
the IRS has furloughed aroundhalf of its employees given the shutdown.
They have, however, keptwhat they deem as essential employees.
(02:56):
These include folks for the upcomingfiling deadline, implementing
new tax laws, and the team tasked with ITmodernization.
So, Eric, I'm sure you're aware
because as part of this firm,it's impossible not to know.
But the 10/15 deadline is coming up
and is that going to be unaffectedby the furlough?
(03:17):
Should our folks continue to be filingthe same deadline as usual? Yes.
Make sure that you are on schedulefor that.
There is no statutorychange to the requirement to file
by the upcoming deadlinesdespite the furlough.
I think a big question too, is IRS exams.
I guess really that question is twofold.
(03:40):
What about if you're currently under exam?
And then what about the potentialfor new exams upcoming?
That is a great question.
We have heard from our friends at the IRSthat while they are furloughing
some of the agents responsiblefor handling exams, team leaders
have now been deemed essentialand will continue with the current exams.
Now for new exams,depending on how long this lasts,
(04:02):
that will be an interesting question
to see if the rate of exams they take onwill be affected.
In another piece of IRS news,there is now a new role:
the CEO of the IRS.
Okay, hold on, hold on.
Did they just change the titleof the commissioner to CEO
or what's happening there?
Yeah, very valid question.
(04:23):
And actually,no, there is still a commissioner,
but this new role is being takenby Frank Bisignano,
the commissionerof the Social Security Administration.
Of course, this fact has many people
wondering if there will be changesto policy and information sharing,
given this choice of leaderand what implications that could have.
(04:44):
And finally,
it is currently possible for the IRSto levy penalties without a jury trial.
But that may change, Iris.
Given the most recent case, Securitiesand Exchange Commission versus Jarkesy.
So, this case went all the wayto the Supreme Court, which held
that in the case of fraud, SEC caseswould have to go to a jury trial.
(05:06):
But that's specific to the SEC, right?
Or did that also involve the IRS?
That's correct.
It is specific to the SECin this case, though, the question is
whether this ruling will beused to set precedent for the IRS as well.
We will have to wait and see.
Very interesting. And Eric, well done.
Devin briefed you well.
(05:28):
Thank you so much for joining usfor our Fast Four.
Stick with us
as we transition to the main portionof our episode, Planning Insights.
On today's segment
of Planning Insights,we're joined by Wes Ernst and Mike Roney.
Wes Ernst is a partner in our assurancepractice out of Cincinnati.
(05:51):
When not working with clientsin the healthcare sector, he is busy
helping them with the New MarketsTax Credit,
or shortened to NMTC,as we'll call it here.
Mike Roney is a director
with the firm who focuses mostall of his time with NMTC within
the firm's federal specialty practice.
Welcome to Tackling Tax, Mike and Wes.
(06:11):
Thanks for having us, Iris.
Yeah. So hey, Wes, let's back up a minute.
For those not familiar, could you give ussort of just a high-level
summary of what NMTC is and whyit could be an opportunity for companies?
Sure, and thanks, Iris.
You know, the New MarketsTax Credit program was really Congress's
(06:33):
solve 25 years ago
to steer private investment to otherwiseeconomically distressed areas.
And the way that they dothat is the provision of a tax credit
to attract outside investor capital.
At its heart,it's really a community benefits program.
So the general idea is that by
(06:55):
bringing together stakeholdersacross a couple of different fronts,
what you get is investment in projects
and other such items in communitiesthat will allow them to sort of break
the cycle of povertyor the cycle of unemployment
or what have you, and really helpthose communities thrive.
Going forward.
So, I guess with that backdropsounds like a fantastic
(07:19):
sort of conceptual program.
Mike,are there certain kinds of tax payers?
So like when I'm saying kinds, I’mthinking partnerships, C-corp,
individuals,those kinds of things, that are eligible?
Or is it a benefitpotentially for everybody?
It's kind of both.
So on the tax side, pertnerships, C-corps,individuals, they can avail themselves
(07:42):
of the tax credit that is in the nameNew Markets Tax Credit.
So, as long as you havefederal liability,
because this is a federal program,that is large enough to utilize
that tax credit,so long as you're able to participate,
you can definitely take advantageof that tax credit.
The benefit can have more for just ourour audience participants sake.
(08:04):
It's much more of a funding programfor community benefits.
And kind of, as Wes alludedto, yes, tax credit in the name,
that tax credit is designed to driveinvestment into these low income areas.
But really for our audience andfor the companies that participate here,
it's really a funding mechanismto help them offset costs
(08:25):
and help them to reallocatecapital elsewhere, helping their ROI,
helping their bottom linewhile also helping them build a project
that is advantageous and helpful forthe community that that it's located in.
Does that mean that they haveto be involved in developing real estate,
or can you just decide, hey,I'm an investor with some liquidity here.
(08:48):
Is this somethingthat I could be involved in
or how does the wholefunding piece work then?
So you mentioned real estate there.
I think that's maybe a misconceptionof the program, kind of like
the way that the tax credit is named.
There's a lot of misnomers,but there's some nuance here.
Most people, when they look at a communityor they see development,
(09:09):
what optically helps themis to see a building
being built or seeing, you know,
construction equipment out theremoving dirt.
And we think, oh, that's development.That's a benefit.
The New Markets program does that,but I'd say the majority, and
as of the last data from the government,from the Treasury Department,
(09:30):
roughly 55% of these dollarsgo to non-real estate projects.
So, when you think about that,think about equipment,
and think about other areasof spending for a company, for a project,
for a community that are,yes, development, it can be development,
it can be real estate,but often, more often than not, it goes
to other usesor other kind of capital projects.
(09:54):
They're not necessarily real estate.
So I think you mentioned transferability
when we were talking about this,you know, preparing for this podcast.
What was the point you wanted to makeabout transferability in this sense?
So the credit itself, and that's kind ofwhere we talk about the credit part.
And this may be where the discussionwill turn a little bit for, you know, your
(10:18):
the audience on kind of,
yes, it's a program for funding,but it's also a tax credit.
How does that tax credit work?
The New Markets Tax Credit,the actual tax credit that's received
as a result of these investments,goes to a corporate investor typically.
And I think in this spaceyou're going to see the tax credit
at issueget gobbled up by 5 or 6 large banks.
(10:40):
You know, when you think aboutthe large banks in the United States,
think of Chase, think of USBank, think of Capital One, etc.
that'skind of where the tax credits going.
But even those banks that large of a size,
they don't have an unlimitedfederal liability.
So the tax credits can be transferred,
on the secondary marketsyndication to others.
(11:01):
And so that's maybe where, you know, othersmaller banks, other individuals, other,
you know, investors might have an appetitefor not necessarily a full New Markets
Tax Credit project with a large liability,but a piece of that, and that's maybe
where they can avail themselves of a taxcredit to claim on their federal return.
That is not necessarilyas a direct participant
(11:21):
in the New Markets program,but as a secondary participant.
That's super helpful.
I think, Wes, turning to you.
You know, I've heard about the New MarketsTax Credit for a while.
It's not new, right?
I mean, hasit been successful in the past?
Yeah. No, it's not new.
I mentioned in the opening comments
it was originally enactedas part of legislation back in 2000.
(11:46):
So we're coming up on twoand a half decades now, and I think maybe
just a little bit of extra orientation.
The annual funding amount is $5
billion—that's with a B—dollarsin New Markets Tax Credit allocation.
And just so the listeners kind of havea sense of what does that translate to
kind of down market,which is roughly 500 projects a year.
(12:08):
So even if you went further, you couldtalk about it on a state-by-state basis.
As Mike said, it's federal.
So there's no sort of state-specificrequirements, but roughly ten projects
per state, if you just dida simple average, are going to be somehow
some way getting funding or otherwiseparticipating in this in this program.
(12:29):
And because of sort of the wide, sweepingnature of it all, I mean, it's industry
agnostic.
So it's not like,you know, the investment has to be done
in healthcare or manufacturingand that's it.
It is largely
something that can be steeredtowards any project type, whether that's,
you know, being sponsored by a for-profitor not-for-profit company
(12:49):
doesn't really matter.
I mean, there are a few exceptions,just like
there are in any type of program. But,
you know, in large part,
anyone who has a project in a qualifyingarea can take advantage of that.
And because of that sort of elasticityand that that flexibility,
it has been very, very successful.
(13:09):
I mean, some of the numbers you seeare things such as eight dollars
of sort of returnfor every dollar of tax credit allocated
and several hundred million dollarsworth of square footage
that's been constructed over the timeperiod that, again, at its heart,
has all been around the idea of drivingeconomic activity
(13:32):
and economic benefit in low-incomeand otherwise distressed communities.
And Iris, I think Wes makes a point thereto distinguish,
yes, it's a tax credit program,
but as we mentioned before,it's a community benefits funding program.
So you don't have to be a taxpayerto avail yourself of the program.
(13:55):
That's why the nonprofit space, it'svery powerful for them.
It's powerful for for-profits becauseit helps, you know, reallocate capital.
So I just want to make that distinction
and clarificationthat, yes, tax credit in the name,
but you don't have to be a taxpayer.
And nonprofits are a great candidatefor project funding through this program.
Yeah, that is a great distinction.
(14:15):
Well, it sounds like it's doing welland has done well.
And that leads me to,
I think I've heard it's in OB3,the One Big Beautiful Bill Act.
Mike, you're the tax guy.
This is a tax bill.
What changed with it, If anything, in OB3?
So OB3 was greatfor the New Markets program.
(14:36):
I don't know if it's actually greatfor others, but, well, that remains to be
seen.
For New Marketsitself, OB3 made our program permanent.
Up until this pointit had been subject to reauthorization.
Over its life the last 25 years,eight times it had been reauthorized.
So I guess the old phrase goesninth time was the charm.
So we have a permanent program.
(14:58):
It's going to be funded at $5 billionwith a B for the next foreseeable future.
There may be kind of one pointto make there, though.
We do have a new award roundcoming up later this fall
that is going to be $10 billion of annual
funding, or not annual funding,$10 billion of funding for this round,
which is just, we knew,the industry knew that the cap was coming.
(15:21):
The program was going to expireat the end of this year, 2025. So,
in all the wisdom of the
Treasury Department,they just cobbled together
the rest of the dollarsthat were available.
We've got $10 billioncoming down the street.
But the point is, going forward, it'sgoing to be $5 billion annually.
That's great news.
$10 billion dollars is a lot of dollars.
(15:41):
So with that 10 billion Wes,how do we know
what areas qualifyfor that amount of money?
So, you know, we talked aboutthe sort of the low income side of things.
It's really based on census tract.
So T-R-A-C-T,census tract, obviously whenever they do
the decennial census, they're,they're counting population, but
(16:04):
there are a number of other itemsthat are getting categorized
and sort of fed into the data machineby the US Census Bureau during that time.
And so as part of that, they will come upwith sort of certain criteria
that makes you eligible to put a projectin a New Market-eligible zone.
(16:24):
You know, roughly 40% of
the census tracts are qualified,
and you can find those onwhat's called the CDFI website.
So the CDFI fund is an agency within U.S.
Treasury that is sort of the oversightmechanism of the program.
And they have a free map.
It doesn't require any sortof special access or anything like that.
(16:47):
And you can go and put in an address.
If you're wondering
if you have a project that's eligible,you can type in the address of where
that project might be, and it'll tell youwhether you're sort of in or out.
And that is an importantdistinction, which is
it very much is a you have to
be on the right side of the streetkind of item.
And so, you know, making sure that the project is,
(17:12):
in fact, in an eligible zone is very,very important on the front end
because otherwise you end upsort of spending a lot of time and effort
only to realize down,you know, later on that it's no good.
And so Mikeand I, when we often field questions from
from individualsinterested and in, in participation,
our very first question is well,do you have an address
(17:33):
because that's going to drive a lotof what happens from that point forward.
So I guess that begs the question.
I'm CFO sitting in my chair.
How do I figure out how to participate,whether it be,
getting those downstreamtax credits, Mike, as you said,
or participating in a way of you'regetting funding or something like that,
(17:56):
like what's my stepone that y'all would recommend?
So it sort of depends on which side of thethe house you're on.
If you're a company
who is looking to investin a significant capital project
of some form or fashion,or just in general terms,
you know, your first step is determiningwhere is that project going to be located.
(18:20):
And then kind of what
is the
sources and uses side of that project.
And what I mean bythat is the the program requires
sort of a minimum spend in order for itto, we often say
the juice to be worth the squeeze,because there's just a lot of kind of
legal paperwork and other thingsthat are important to get to get done.
(18:42):
So you want a minimum spend.
We usually say 5 million or more.
If you're talking about a project,but checking eligibility
and then starting to firm up, thingslike what's my overall project budget?
Is it $10 million? Is it $15 million?
You know,and what is this project going to do,
especiallywhat is it going to do for the community?
(19:03):
Is that it's going to create jobsfor individuals in that area?
Is that it's going to produceother economic return of some form
or fashion that once one projectgets built, you know, another one will?
Is it going to provide healthcare servicesthat otherwise people
in that low-income areaare driving 75 miles to otherwise obtain?
(19:28):
So that's sort of the start of it,which is I've got a project of some mass.
It's in a qualifying zone,and I have clear and distinct
benefits for that particular community.
That's sort of on the company'ssponsorship side.
And Mike, maybe you want to address thethe tax side.
(19:48):
So Wes, on the, kind of, the taxcredit side or what I might think about
is the investor side, the investor,as we mentioned, one of the large banks.
So think of it as maybe Chase Bankin this scenario, they are seeking
those projects to invest inor maybe to think about a different way
to provide some capitalinto that community,
(20:11):
into that projectthat would not have been there before.
So they also kind of look atthe same function or look at the project
and evaluate it in a very similar way,kind of where is it located,
what are the community benefits and doesit meet their investment criteria.
In the past you've seen kind of itit mirrors
kind of what the administration is doing,whatever that current administration is.
(20:31):
So, you know, in the 2008 time frame,we saw a lot of healthy foods initiatives.
In the first Trump
administration, we saw a lot of domesticmanufacturing initiatives.
Under Biden, we saw a lot of,you know, healthcare-focused.
And then now we're we're seeing a lot of,you know, investment groups
and communitydevelopment entities seek rural projects,
(20:53):
you know, whether that'd be ruralhealthcare, rural manufacturing as well.
That's not
a directive from the governmentby any means.
But I think it's just a lot of people
trying to read the tea leavesa little bit and going kind of where,
where we might be successfulif we allocate our dollars.
And ultimately these groups,these investors want to you
you'll be able to do this
over and over againto one, help the communities, but also,
(21:15):
you know,take advantage of the tax credits.
So, you know, we're coming up to year-endplanning, right?
And folks are trying to think abouthow to wisely use
their money in plans near- and long-term.
Is this somethingthat they could have a benefit next year
if they invest by the year end,or is there a longer kind of lag?
(21:39):
What's the timeframe for wherethey can get a return on their investment?
That's a great question. So
the New Markets Tax Credit program,
it's not necessarilya a risk or trap to think about.
It's more so there's a barrier of entryto consider here.
The one of those barriers is we havea finite amount of dollars to go around.
(22:00):
So just because you havea qualified census tract or a qualified
project does not necessarily mean you'regoing to be a receiver of the funding,
not necessarily going to be receiverof the tax credit itself.
And the reason for that is 10 billionsounds like a big number.
5 billion sounds like a big number.
They are.
(22:20):
But we have 50 states,you know, 10 projects per state,
there's not a lot to go around.
So there's, it’s highly competitive.
And so because of that what we recommendfor companies is go through your normal
development process, go throughyour normal CapEx spending and planning.
If New Markets makes sense,we can come alongside to that project,
(22:43):
help you understandwhether or not New Markets
is possible for this type of project,and whether you should consider it
as part of maybe your investmentor your capital strategy.
The key takeaway to all thatis it's very competitive.
So just because you qualify doesn'tmean you're going to get it.
And then, New Markets is not meant to bea dollar-for-dollar payfor.
Roughly kind of your back of the napkincalculation, depending on your project
(23:08):
size, it'sroughly 15 to 20% of your capital stack.
So it's something to help,you know, take you over the top,
which means that you have to haveyour funding and kind of your development
and your rest of your project scope,
timing, all your parties,all your third-party participants
to help you move the project forward
first before you can truly take advantageof the New Markets program.
(23:32):
So along with the longanswer to your short question, Iris, is
if you get lucky, you can
get some project funding,you know, in the next month or two.
Usually it's a longer life cycle.
I'd say 6 to 9 months worth of planningbefore you can really take advantage of
that funding.
And was there a seven-year somethingthat you were mentioning earlier?
(23:53):
Again, I'm totally interested in whatthat is too.
Well, I think the one thing
that we often forget to mentionis the actual tax credit percentage.
So the New Markets Tax Credit is a 39%tax credit on the underlying investment.
So the quick math isif you have a $10 million investment
that creates $3.9 million in tax credits.
(24:16):
Well, it's not day one you get 39%.
The government and Congresswas pretty smart in figuring out
if you want to have lasting impactin these low-income communities,
you need to have some long-term investmentand some stewardship
and get a group of motivated individualsto stay together.
Well, they decided seven yearsseems like, a long enough time.
(24:39):
So because of that,these transactions, these,
you know, funding packagesstay together for seven years,
which means your tax creditis claimed over seven years.
So 39% not on day one, it's 5% in year
one through three, 6% in yearsfour through seven.
So you know, that's why the syndicationmarket becomes so attractive.
(25:01):
Because you can take a portionof that and,
you know, offload it to another investor,another taxpayer,
or you can keep it for yourself.
But it renews, in a way,it renews itself over seven years.
So these are meant to be stickytransactions
where groups stay togetherand it's not a flash in the pan
or walk awaytype transaction for the community itself.
(25:22):
Does thatmean there's like a recapture provision?
I'm thinking, you know, some of theseclean energy deals that I'm used to like.
That's one of the risks.
Is that in play here?
There is some recapture to consider.
There's only three scenarioswhere that recapture could occur.
And that would require the tax creditsto be given back.
But those are very few and far between.
And then not to have raised a red flagor raise an alarm for the listeners,
(25:45):
but that's the way that the programoperates.
There's some heavy underwriting,the investors being sophisticated
as they are, and the,you know, the projects themselves
get a very strong look under the hood,so to speak, to make sure
that we don't run into that situationwhere a project fails.
That makes a lot of sense.
We're we're in thethe zone of benefits to taxpayers.
(26:11):
Again, my background,
more familiar with the low-incomehousing side of things,
which is also a tax credit,feels similar-ish.
Would there be any overlap or the ability
to take both benefits,or is that not the case?
So, for LIHTC, low-income housing
(26:31):
generally does not mixwell with New Markets.
The reason for that is just basicallyyou have to have some
unique spending on both sides.
So you can't necessarily mix the two.
It's possible for themto be involved in the same project,
but they'd have to becompletely separated.
What we see more often is what we calla twin deal with historic tax credits.
(26:53):
So historic will pay for somethinglike the qualified
real estate expenses,you know, your windows or whatnot.
New Markets can come in and helpwith the underlying equipment or,
you know, some of the real estate concernsthat are there.
So those match up well.
New markets is complicated.
You kind of add some of those other layersit becomes more complex as well.
(27:14):
That's super helpful.
What about state credits?
Is there any state, you've mentioneda few times this is federal, right?
But what about at the state level?
Is there anything that could go alongwell there?
So that's a great point, Iris.
The federal program is kindof the main driver for the whole thing.
And what most people,when they hear a New Markets
Tax Credit program,NMTCs is what you would think.
(27:36):
Several states,let's say, Illinois is one of those.
In the past,Ohio has had some in the past Maine,
Mississippi, Louisiana,they have a state program, as well.
And that just means that as longas you have liability in that state,
you can take advantage of the New Marketsprogram there as well.
(27:57):
It mirrors in most cases,very much the federal program.
The main difference might bewhen you can take your tax credit,
usually there's a bit of a delayand then you take more tax credit
in the years three through seven.
The nice thing about the waythat the state programs work is
you can pair them alongsidewith the federal program.
(28:17):
So oftentimes you see communitydevelopment entities or the investors
who have, a federal focusas well as a state focus,
try to find a projectthat hits both of those buckets,
and they use the same dollarsto increase their benefit.
But at the same time,
helping those low-income communitiesthat are in those states.
Hey, that's all great information.
(28:37):
I think those were the questions
I kind of had top of mind, but obviouslywant to give you guys the opportunity.
Is there anything else, Wes or Mike,that you'd want to touch on?
Just again, our listenerswho are in the decision seats
for a lot of thesecompanies are looking out for,
you know, the futures of their planningopportunities and things like that.
So anything else you'd want to touch on?
(29:00):
You know, I think Iris, Mikeand I often say
to anyone who might be listening,just nothing more than, hey,
having some knowledge about thisprogram is worth
exploring it if you think it might besomething that you could seek in
really any potential future transaction.
And part of the reason for that is itworks really well when you are successful,
(29:24):
but you also know very early
on, typically, if it's not somethingthat's going to be for you.
So in many instances, just
keeping this kind of tucked away in your,your toolbox,
so to speak, as a potential item of useis valuable because other than maybe
needing a little bit of timeto explore with Mike and I or whomever,
(29:47):
it might be, you know,you're not going to necessarily
risk a whole lotby simply trying to see if
what's the art of the possiblefor your particular organization.
And if it does work, it works very,very well in that regard.
Great.
Well, that's a shining endorsement,at least to get in touch with you guys.
(30:08):
I've learned a lot todayand really appreciate your time.
So with that, we are going to move on
to our last segment of the day,our Focused FORsight of the week.
Each episode we'll
bring you what we calla Focused FORsight of the week,
(30:31):
an article or webinarthat might be of interest to you.
This week's Focused FORsight is an article
written by Mike Roney,who you heard from today.
Titled “The New Markets Tax Credit ProgramNow Permanent Under OBBBA,”
this one serves as a good referencepoint to the credit
and what changedwith the recently passed act.
(30:52):
And that's our show. Thanks for joining.
Remember to subscribe and listen infor the next episode of the podcast.
Until next time.
The information set forth
in this podcast contains
the analysis and conclusionsof the panelists based upon his, her
or their research and analysis of industryinformation and legal authorities.
(31:13):
Such analysis and conclusionsshould not be deemed
opinions or conclusions by Forvis Mazarsor the panelists
as to any individual situationas situations are fact-specific.
The listener should performtheir own analysis and form
their own conclusionsregarding any specific situation.
Further, the panelists’ conclusionsmay be revised without notice,
(31:34):
with or without changes in industryinformation and legal authorities.
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