In this episode, Claire Pedrick talks with Victoria Rennoldson about coaching, communication, and cultural intelligence. They discuss the emotional side of communication, the importance of understanding cultural differences, and how to build confidence in leadership. Victoria also emphasizes the value of authenticity and embracing discomfort for personal growth.
Key Takeaways:
- Communication is emotional, not just words.
- Understanding cultural nuances is crucial.
- Confidence comes from self-awareness.
- Focus on conversation, not just performance.
- Silence has different meanings in different cultures.
- Cultural intelligence is key for teamwork.
- Authenticity builds trust.
- Discomfort leads to growth.
- Clarify messages to avoid misunderstandings.
- Inclusion requires a shift in organizational culture.
Sound Bites:
- "Communication isn't just the words that we're saying."
- "We have to deconstruct this high-performance mindset."
- "People want to see the real human behind the leader."
- "It's okay to be there with the ums and the ahs."
- "Cultural intelligence is for everyone."
- "It's getting comfortable being uncomfortable."
- "Just because you said it, it doesn't mean it's heard."
Listen to the podcast Victoria mentions: Accessible & inclusive workplaces: transforming communication with Daphne Mavroudi-Chocholi
https://culturecuppa.com/podcasts/accessible-inclusive-workplaces-with-daphne-mavroudi-chocholi/
- Contact Victoria through https://www.linkedin.com/in/victoria-rennoldson and her podcast https://culturecuppa.com/podcast/
- Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or checking out her 3D Coaching Supervision Community
If you like this episode, subscribe or follow The Coaching Inn on your podcast platform or our YouTube Channel to hear or see new episodes as they drop.
If you’d like to find out more about 3D Coaching, you can get all our new ideas and offers in our weekly email.
Coming Up:
- Join Claire for an Open House at The Coaching Inn on Friday 28th March 2025 08.00-18.00 (UK). Come when you like. Stay as long as you like. Book here
Keywords
coaching, communication, cultural intelligence, leadership, confidence, emotional intelligence, language, authenticity, inclusion, personal growth
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:14):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick.
And today it's a pleasure to be in conversation with Victoria Rennoldson who I met on herpodcast, which was great fun.
And we started a conversation there that I hope we might continue a bit today.
So Victoria, welcome to The Coaching Inn.
(00:36):
Thank you so much, Claire.
And it was a real pleasure to have you on my podcast.
And I'm really excited to be meeting you here today.
We talked about language, didn't we?
Anyway, starting now here with you in the pub, tell us a bit about your journey intocoaching, Victoria.
So I suppose it started from a long time ago, my twin passions, which are really aboutcommunication and culture, where these two places come together.
(01:06):
And for me, these have always been things that I've been really interested in.
So from my beginnings as a kid, understanding that my grandparents were speaking differentlanguages from the languages I was being brought up in, understanding that...
languages was a thing that I really enjoyed at school and I really kind of got into andreally liked the idea of communicating with different people.
(01:30):
But then also having experiences going to live abroad and realizing that no matter howmany words you learn, no matter how much grammar you know, when you arrive in a place and
you're in the day to day, that actually doesn't matter.
You have to be able to say the thing to be able to communicate.
So
This for me was kind of what I was really, really interested in.
(01:53):
And it kind of is the threads, these are the threads that went through my career.
They're the threads that basically led me sort of into my first career.
And then ultimately into what I do today, working with global leaders, future leaders,helping them think about their careers and how to develop them around the world.
(02:14):
Wow, so I have just a really curious question there.
Did you speak the language your grandparents spoke?
So the story of this is really fascinating, which is my grandparents came to the UK in thesort of late 30s.
And they felt at that time, the languages they spoke, German, Hungarian, obviouslycontext-wise, was sort of a space where those languages perhaps weren't necessarily so
(02:43):
openly welcomed in that moment, in that time in the UK.
So...
actually, they felt culturally that they needed to fit in.
So they actually shut down a lot of their culture.
So my father was brought up speaking only English.
They wanted him to be very British in inverted commas.
(03:03):
And actually that was probably quite common in this time, this sense of trying to fit in,not to stand out, not to express your cultural identity.
And it's only something that I've really recognized recently, but it was kind of veryaccepted at that time.
But interestingly, it then started back with me.
where I started German as my first language at secondary school.
(03:26):
I went on to study at university.
I got interested in other languages.
I picked up Russian when I went to university and went and lived in Germany and Russia.
And then it led me into my first career, which was marketing in international companies.
So that thread really kind of, it was interesting, even though my father never spoke thoselanguages to me.
(03:48):
it sparked something inside me and it got me really curious about other people, how theytalk.
And I think I probably realized fairly early on that this thing about it's, know, thecommunication is just more than the language we're speaking.
Languages is functional, but communication is emotional.
And that's the bit that I got really very fascinated by.
(04:12):
Language is functional and communication is emotional.
So how did you communicate with your grandparents?
Well, interestingly, I always spoke English to my grandparents.
So again, they still had that overhang, I suppose, of their sense of arriving in the UKand wanting to fit in.
I think later in life, I did try and speak German with my grandmother, but interestingly,I think she found that very difficult.
(04:38):
And she found it almost, she wanted to encourage me.
She understood that things had changed, times had changed, but at the same time,
I think there was a reticence in her just because of some of the things that she probablywent through, which were unspoken, perhaps some of the sort of slight feeling of not
wanting to express that Germaness that, well, she was actually Austrian, she spoke German,but even so, to express that cultural identity.
(05:07):
But at the same time, never lost touch with the roots.
And in fact, I was lucky enough to...
have distant cousins in far-flung places, but also in Europe and in Germany andSwitzerland, in Austria.
And those roots are really important to me today.
In fact, I was in Austria last summer, bringing my own family, my children to understandtheir heritage, their roots.
(05:30):
And my son, even though he isn't learning German officially at school, has picked it up onDuolingo.
And he's decided this is going to be the language he learns.
And he hasn't missed a day.
I think he's on something like
day 563 or something.
I'll look out for him in the diamond league then, Victoria.
I'm on day 890 in Spanish.
(05:53):
wow, that is impressive, goodness.
Well, it's interesting, isn't it?
Because I've gone from nothing.
And actually, my Spanish is not bad now.
Yeah.
And are you speaking it with other people or do you sort of do it just you and then go?
Yeah.
Obviously it's not as good in Spain as it is in bed.
(06:16):
You know, slowly, as they say.
Yeah.
Yeah, how fascinating because.
There's an interview coming up with Tony Castro about music and the sound of coaching.
He's a musician.
And I was just thinking about what you see when you were talking to your grandparents.
(06:41):
What did you see and what did you sense when they were talking to each other before youhad that German insight?
Because you probably picked up a lot, I'm guessing.
think that's the thing that I recognised and it's what also took me into what I do today,which is again, communication isn't just the words that we're saying.
(07:02):
It's the tone of voice, the pace, the volume of your voice.
It's the little raise of the eyebrow or the silence, which is not, nothing's being said,right?
And it's these elements that I'm really, I feel that are important to dissect andunderstand culturally because silence can mean one thing in English, for example, for
(07:28):
people who are perhaps listening and English is their first language, but silence can havea very different meaning in another language.
So I'm just thinking about some of the cultures I've worked with.
So worked at one point with a lot of Japanese clients and
The idea of silence there is very strongly codified into things like, disagree, I'm notgoing to say it to you, but I'm going to indicate to you I'm not happy, or I'm not sure
(07:55):
that we're in the same page.
Equally, you know, the idea of nonverbal communication is very, very cultural.
And that also is something that I really like to deep dive into because you can imaginewhen you're working, and as I do now, working with people across
multiple locations, multiple cultures, they have to work with very diverse teams.
(08:18):
Interpreting others and understanding what they really mean beyond the words can be areally tricky business.
And then really understanding what people mean and what they want you to do, again, isreally hard sometimes.
Yeah, isn't it fascinating?
So why coaching?
(08:39):
I love deep diving.
And I think one of things that I realized even from my own experiences of learninglanguages early in my studies and then moving into marketing and international companies
is that again, you know, we often grow up in an environment where we think this is aboutlearning enough stuff, enough stuff, like I need to know enough stuff and then I'll be
(09:06):
able to do the thing.
And I know that deeply because I was that kid trying to learn all this stuff and get thebest grades and get, do the things.
But what I kind of recognized only kind of really through my own journey and the ways thatI'm now doing my work is that it's actually often about the sense of self and the sense of
(09:29):
confidence.
So...
Even today, when I'm working with people who perhaps are really quite senior leaders intheir organizations, they come to me with a question, which is sometimes about their
language, but more these days about, you know, I'm not sure I'm coming across in the rightway.
(09:50):
I'm not sure my communication is leader-like enough or crisp enough or whatever it mightbe.
But actually deep down underneath,
the questions are confidence related.
And they're related to a real kind of deep doubt about, am I good enough for this role?
(10:11):
Am I good enough to do this?
And I think what I've recognized through that working with people at this level is thatpeople seem very together sometimes.
They seem to be very in charge, in the focus, in the eye of everybody else.
And everybody looks at them and thinks,
wow, they've made it, they've done it.
(10:32):
But what I've discovered time and time again is everybody has those doubts.
Everybody has those confidence questions.
Not permanent either.
It's not kind of like a permanent state, but it is that flow and up and down.
And that's the bit that I'm really interested in.
How can I go deep with people to help them understand this and reframe perhaps the waythey're thinking?
(10:59):
which really opens up opportunities for them through the way that they are going for,whether it's career opportunities or if they are in that space of stepping into more of
their thought leadership and representing their industry more broadly or even theirorganisation speaking, for example.
(11:19):
you're talking I'm noticing the kind of front stage gestures and I'm observing that you'rethat you're actually working with people's backstage so that they can work front stage.
That's a really brilliant way of putting it.
I think that is absolutely it.
(11:40):
Because what people often feel is that they have to do it one way.
They have to perform, in fact.
And what I've kind of realized recently is that we have to deconstruct this almost highperformance mindset when it comes to speaking or showing up as a leader.
(12:02):
because actually what happens is it puts a lot of pressure on.
People feel this sense of, often these are people who, not all of them, but some of themare very driven by this idea of achievement and by that sense of the way that I have been
successful is by setting these incredibly stretching goals and really going for it andgoing for it, going for it, going for it until I get it.
(12:26):
The challenge that they have when it comes to thinking about their communication andspeaking,
is that what I've discovered, and I know this from my own experiences and my own journeyof struggling with speaking, is that when you put that pressure on and you try and make it
like perfect, it's almost like the inverse happens.
You end up making it sounds totally rubbish and it's really hard.
(12:51):
So then what you do to cope with that is you try and perform.
So you try and learn the lines, you try and...
rehearse and rehearse and rehearse until you are perfect and you can act it.
And for sure, that is a path.
That is one way of doing it.
But boy, it really, really is, it hurts.
(13:13):
Like I know it myself.
It takes a huge amount of energy and a huge amount of time to get to that level ofperformance.
And you just can't do that as a leader.
You just don't have that energy and time to be focusing so hard on something.
to then deliver.
So for me, this is much more about, okay, let's not think about this as performance atall.
(13:35):
That's not a helpful way of thinking about this.
Let's think about this as conversation.
Whatever it is, whether you're standing on a stage in front of thousands of people, orwhether we're having a conversation one-to-one, it should always be a conversation.
And that style of communication is actually something I've noticed.
(13:55):
Leaders are almost expected to have these days, to have that sense of self and that senseof confidence that they can speak whatever the context is.
And you've spoke, you know, so many things in that Victoria, because the first way theylearn the lines and do all that is acting, isn't it?
(14:17):
And then it's not showing up as me, it's showing up as something else.
And then you lose the, if I want you to be human with me, I need to be a bit human withyou.
sure.
And I think one of the things I realized is that people have got to use to this placesometimes of putting on a mask to do this.
(14:40):
So they feel like they they look at others and they look out whether those are leadersthey've worked with or whether those are speakers they've admired.
And they try and copy they say, right, that's the style I need to do.
So this is how I'm going to do it.
This is the mask I'm going to put on.
to therefore survive this, to do this, to be that person on the panel or being interviewedby the media, for example.
(15:07):
But the reality is this isn't you.
And again, if we think culturally, take the cultural angle on this, the idea of confidenceis cultural.
So the way that confidence is expressed, for example, in the UK or in the US, if you'vegot some listeners in the US,
might be quite different from how confidence might look like if we go to Japan or Brazil,where I've again, I've worked with a lot of clients there or in France.
(15:36):
So I think, you know, for me, it's about understanding what is your version of confidence?
What does that look like?
Not to put on somebody else's, but almost to think about it like a dial and not to make itreally loud and extrovert.
And that might be you, but it might not be.
(15:56):
but to just sort of dial it up a little bit to understand that it's really about justtaking what you've got and then understanding how you move into your space so that people
feel it and you're projecting you rather than putting something else on a costume.
People feel it because you're projecting you.
(16:17):
And I wonder whether they don't feel it when we're projecting somebody else.
I think deep down inside people notice it, that it's acting.
They might just feel it that like, that's not really you.
And even if it's not said, I think people recognize when people are, others, leaders arein acting mode.
(16:40):
And that comes back down to, you know, trust and the big word of vulnerability, you know,leaders are
being asked, people want to see the real human behind the leader.
They don't want to be like, this is far off person on a pedestal who we're all following.
No, no, no, it's not like that.
(17:02):
A leader is somebody who is, yes, creating a vision, yes, galvanizing people towardssomething.
And at the same time, for people to believe that, they have to feel you.
They have to understand that you're a human, that you don't have all the answers, thatyou're not
perfect and that you will get it wrong.
(17:22):
So, you know, coming back to the idea of speaking, I really believe it's okay to be therekind of, you know, with the ums and the ahs and the, okay, I've just lost my train of
thought.
Let's come back to this.
You have to accept that that is part of being human, part of speaking like a human andtalking like a human.
(17:44):
I was in conversation with one of our listeners, Steve, recently, and he said that when hefirst started listening to The Coaching Inn, the pauses annoyed him because his technical
background, you polish.
He was producing things that were polished.
And then he said, but now I love them.
And somebody put on our Facebook page the other day, there were some beautiful silences inthere.
(18:12):
But there's something isn't there about what we sometimes what we think we ought to doversus actually what's the most genuine and useful thing to do in this situation.
And they're not always the same, are they?
No, I'm just, what I'm thinking as well is that sometimes the silences are allowingactually a real thought to happen, right?
(18:37):
So rather than me listening and simultaneously coming up with, what do I want to say next?
How am I going to respond to this?
Actually, silence is also, okay, I'm genuinely respectfully going to listen to what you'regoing to say and then consider what the answer to that is.
(18:57):
Again, if I relate it to cultures, really, you know, I'm again, I'm very, get veryfascinated by this, but the pace of conversations really varies across cultures.
And in some cultures, it's much more usual to find a sort of almost like simultaneousconversation going on of two or three voices speaking at the same time.
(19:19):
And if you're not used to that, that's really can be quite disconcerting, like what'sgoing on?
Why are they not listening to each other?
but there's a different way of listening.
And then in other cultures, you have a real sort of slowing down and the silences and thepauses indicate also respect sometimes that I'm genuinely listening to you.
(19:42):
I'm considering what you have to say.
And then I'm to respond very thoughtfully to that because you've put into the worldsomething that is worth listening to.
Nice.
So I've got a burning question that's been outrageous.
Do you coach in other languages?
I don't, although I do speak other languages, I am very aware that what I'm trying to dois help people who are usually leaders who want to step into more English speaking leader
(20:14):
roles.
So either they are already in that space.
So they're already in a very large global organization and they've been working in Englishmost of their career.
Alternatively, they may be, maybe they are kind of broadening out their experience.
stepping more into a global career for the first time.
But because English is the language that they're to be using in their working world,that's where I focus.
(20:40):
However, sort of I suppose the other answer to that is, is because I understand languages,clearly I don't speak every language, but because I understand generally how languages
work and where sometimes
miscommunications happen or some of the mistakes may happen.
(21:00):
It can sometimes help me understand the psychology of why somebody might be strugglingwith something, what contexts might be more challenging for them.
So I had a really interesting conversation that was about, is confidence?
Can you be too confident?
(21:21):
Can you come across as arrogant?
And that was a conversation with Somdee from a culture which is very much about creatingrespect and creating a sense of not having open disagreement and conflict.
So.
the concern I could see was coming from the point of view of would I be too strong?
(21:44):
Would I be coming across as being putting myself in the hierarchy above others who may bealmost senior to me or maybe older than me?
Again, that can be a cultural question.
Like how does this hierarchy work?
So these kinds of things are really important to understand linguistically, culturally,but yes, coming back to your question, I do always.
(22:07):
I always, always did my work in English.
Yeah.
So some interesting things there about deference and how we own our personal power whendeference might also be in the culture either because it's my culture or because it's the
culture of the space that I'm working in.
Yeah, I think that transition, particularly when the way that I'm thinking about it oftenwith my clients from their local culture possibly to a global culture, that is something
(22:38):
that sometimes has to shift, particularly in global organizations which are moreinfluenced by UK, US, Western style types of culture where the idea of deference or
respect would be seen as.
perhaps a little strange, perhaps a bit outdated or old fashioned.
(22:59):
And it can, as you can imagine, when it comes to this idea of confidence or speaking,sometimes hold people back because they believe they should wait to listen to the other
voices in the room.
So one of the things that I'm really kind of keen when I'm talking with teams, as well aswith leaders of teams is thinking about, well, what's the share of voice?
(23:23):
of individuals in your teams, who you're hearing from the most and who you're not reallyhearing from.
And that's a really big, question when it comes to the virtual hybrid teams that the vastmajority of people I'm working with do work in, right?
Because the reality is it can be that you kind of almost
(23:47):
forget or people get hidden behind the camera or even if the camera is not even on, right?
So it can be sometimes difficult to judge, you know, is somebody just eating their lunchin the background and they are participating or are they struggling to really speak up and
be heard within the team?
That can be a cultural question as well.
(24:09):
Yeah.
And you're talking about inclusion, aren't you?
And it's interesting because in other spaces where we're doing some work on inclusion,know, often people are sent for coaching so that they can change and be included.
When actually the thing that needs to change is that the organisational culture needs tochange and everybody needs to adapt to be inclusive rather than the person who's
(24:34):
different, whatever that is, being told that they're the one who has to have a coach andadapt.
I'm really pleased you said that Claire, because for me, this is where the other piece ofmy work comes in, which is about cultural intelligence.
So I am, this is a particular approach, which is really thinking about that exactly whatyou just said.
(24:55):
This is not just for certain individuals, but this is for everyone.
And the way that I show up in the world is determined partly by my national culture, butthat's too sort of one dimensional.
I'm a really multi-dimensional person as you are, as every listener is who's listening tothis.
(25:16):
So the way that I show up in the world, in my culture, is really different from others.
And that's shaped by where I live.
I live in London.
The fact that I had some multicultural kind of background heritage.
The fact that I'm a woman and identify as a woman, that I'm heterosexual, that I'mmarried, that I have family, that I'm a business owner.
(25:37):
All these things and more, much more shape who I am.
So it's really, again, one of the things that I really, really like about the culturalintelligence approach is that although we have, there is a course research that talks
about generalizations and averages across nationalities.
We've also got to say, even in a small place like the UK, is really every British personlike every British person?
(26:01):
Of course not.
And so that's where we need cultural intelligence.
And that is not just for one or two people.
That's for everyone to understand how they show up in the world, in their culture, and howare they interacting and communicating with others.
And when are those kind of disconnects going on, and what could be going on there?
(26:23):
You've just completely reframed my rather odd Friday night, which I'll never get back.
I'm now totally intrigued.
What was that?
So we went to a quiz on Friday night with to make up a team with my brother and there andhis friends.
And one of the team is there with her guide dog, so she's blind.
(26:49):
And we all love quizzes.
So we're used to coming first or second, usually in a quiz.
And, you know, if you come forth because there's somebody in the
quiz team, in a quiz team who's absolutely brilliant.
We came last.
And we came last for a number of reasons.
(27:09):
One is that one of us couldn't, most of the questions were on a screen, which put us oneperson down because our friend couldn't see the questions.
She couldn't see the pictures.
And if she could see the pictures, they weren't going to make sense to her because she'snever been, she's never had sight.
And then there was a whole round on Gen Z, which is what do these things, what do thesewords mean in Gen Z?
(27:36):
were four people out of six have got adult children in their late 20s, early 30s.
But Gen Z is a different generation from our own children, even though it's only just downthe line.
So we could not, know, most of those who can answer.
But it reminds me, and I've had other experiences in my life where this has been true,where from time to time, being immersed in something or somewhere where you culturally are
(28:06):
completely out of your depth that isn't on holiday is a really good thing.
Because I remember years ago, I went to bingo with my friend Jackie.
And I don't know why we went.
I think it's because we'd never been and we thought it'd be fun.
And there was some national bingo thing going on.
(28:27):
So bingo is a game where people gather listeners, where they gather and they have to,somebody reads out numbers and you have to mark out the numbers.
And if you get your numbers in a row, then you win.
So we got our numbers in a row.
So we thought we'd won.
And it was a national competition where they were linked to every other bingo hall in theUK.
And we were wrong.
We hadn't won.
(28:48):
So we stopped the whole thing, go, I've won.
And they go, no, you haven't.
But there's something for me about my responsibility as a human being that works withhuman beings to sometimes put myself in places in my own cultural context where I am
(29:08):
completely out of my depth.
And I'd forgotten that until you said that.
So now you have redeemed Friday.
Thank you.
Well, congratulations on coming last.
That is an honor in itself.
And I love your reflections because the point about this is that, again, the people that Iwork with are used to being very in control.
(29:30):
They're used to being knowing the answers, knowing what the right thing to do is or how toapproach something.
So then saying, okay, either you're going to be leading a team, which is really diverseand across multiple locations you've never managed before.
or you're have to relocate and go to a new location.
And your leadership techniques may not work in that context.
(29:53):
And you're gonna have to be really uncomfortable and work out what is gonna work.
And that's not gonna be easy when people are perhaps even looking to you for that answer.
That's the bit.
And so for me, I say, well, it's getting comfortable being uncomfortable.
And as humans, we hate this.
We really hate it.
(30:13):
Like I hate it, like it makes us want to go and back away and lean out of what's going on.
But our cultural intelligence approach is really about if we can keep stepping forward andrecognize a discomfort is just a signal that we're on the right path that actually we're
learning something through that.
(30:34):
That is really a really positive sign.
And by the way, I've owned that the time this recording
I'm not sure when this episode will go out, but I've got a really fascinating episodecoming up on my podcast where I interview the MD of the Royal National Institute of the
Blind, talking about this point about accessibility and what we don't sometimes realizewhen we're thinking about people who are partially sighted or have vision impairments or
(31:07):
perhaps are completely blind.
And that
that particular episode, really that interview, just I learned so much because I realizedhow much I was assuming, taking for granted and not even thinking about even in my day to
day work that I had I do with with people.
So that is a yeah, highly recommend that one because that's one that really kind of reallymade me kind of realize how much I don't know sometimes.
(31:37):
Sitting next to Sandy was an absolute masterclass in blowing my mind open because therewere so many things that I realised I couldn't describe.
So one of the rounds you had to, there were pictures of the Quality Street chocolates,which is a famous English brand of chocolates.
(32:04):
And...
we were meant to work out what was the pink one and what was the red one and what was thegreen one and of course she's never she doesn't know what colours are so she was giving us
really great data so she was saying oh the the toffee one is the one with the lumps on itbut on this picture you couldn't see that so was a drawing it was a coloured in drawing so
(32:29):
so the data she was giving was actually giving the best information that we could use
But the information that we had didn't match the information that she had.
So she was excluded from that round and the next round and the round.
And so sitting next to her and noticing that was really interesting because I was doingsome describing and then I'm going, well.
(32:54):
I'm describing something and that's not going to make any sense either.
Mmm.
Yeah.
And then you translate that into the world of work and you think about what we assumeeverybody can see or hear or what they understand from what we've just said.
I mean, I don't know.
mean, I remember quite distinctly in my, in my first career in having conversations, soI'd lead sort of cross-functional teams and be leading innovation projects.
(33:24):
and I think, well, I said that.
And then they'd say, did you?
And you were like,
I'm pretty sure I said that, but just because you said it doesn't mean somebody's heardit.
And one of the things that I think is so important about these kinds of contexts issometimes you do need to confirm and clarify and make sure people have received the
(33:49):
message.
Just because you said it, it doesn't mean it's heard.
And that's also a very important part of communication.
sometimes we need to be uncomfortable in order to experience how other people feeluncomfortable.
So if you give me the link to that podcast, I'll pop it in the show notes.
(34:12):
Because I'll definitely be listening, adding to your lovely listening stats there,Victoria.
So if people want to talk to you more, how do they get in touch with you?
Well, my natural home is LinkedIn.
I love a bit of LinkedIn.
So I am quite active over there.
I love a good conversation.
So please feel free to connect, follow, drop me a message, say hi.
(34:37):
I'm always really curious to see what people are thinking about.
And equally, got the podcast.
So if people want to come and listen to that, Cultural Communication Confidence is thename of the podcast.
So that comes out every Monday.
And yeah.
We've got some exciting episodes coming up.
So yeah, I would love for people to come and listen to that.
(35:00):
put all those in the show notes.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you Victoria for coming to the Coaching Inn.
It's been great fun.
Thank you so much, Claire.
Really enjoyed it.
And thank you everyone for listening.
We'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick.
And today it's a pleasure to be in conversation with Victoria Rennoldson who I met on herpodcast, which was great fun.
And we started a conversation there that I hope we might continue a bit today.
So Victoria, welcome to The Coaching Inn.
(00:36):
Thank you so much, Claire.
And it was a real pleasure to have you on my podcast.
And I'm really excited to be meeting you here today.
We talked about language, didn't we?
Anyway, starting now here with you in the pub, tell us a bit about your journey intocoaching, Victoria.
So I suppose it started from a long time ago, my twin passions, which are really aboutcommunication and culture, where these two places come together.
(01:06):
And for me, these have always been things that I've been really interested in.
So from my beginnings as a kid, understanding that my grandparents were speaking differentlanguages from the languages I was being brought up in, understanding that...
languages was a thing that I really enjoyed at school and I really kind of got into andreally liked the idea of communicating with different people.
(01:30):
But then also having experiences going to live abroad and realizing that no matter howmany words you learn, no matter how much grammar you know, when you arrive in a place and
you're in the day to day, that actually doesn't matter.
You have to be able to say the thing to be able to communicate.
So
This for me was kind of what I was really, really interested in.
(01:53):
And it kind of is the threads, these are the threads that went through my career.
They're the threads that basically led me sort of into my first career.
And then ultimately into what I do today, working with global leaders, future leaders,helping them think about their careers and how to develop them around the world.
(02:14):
Wow, so I have just a really curious question there.
Did you speak the language your grandparents spoke?
So the story of this is really fascinating, which is my grandparents came to the UK in thesort of late 30s.
And they felt at that time, the languages they spoke, German, Hungarian, obviouslycontext-wise, was sort of a space where those languages perhaps weren't necessarily so
(02:43):
openly welcomed in that moment, in that time in the UK.
So...
actually, they felt culturally that they needed to fit in.
So they actually shut down a lot of their culture.
So my father was brought up speaking only English.
They wanted him to be very British in inverted commas.
(03:03):
And actually that was probably quite common in this time, this sense of trying to fit in,not to stand out, not to express your cultural identity.
And it's only something that I've really recognized recently, but it was kind of veryaccepted at that time.
But interestingly, it then started back with me.
where I started German as my first language at secondary school.
(03:26):
I went on to study at university.
I got interested in other languages.
I picked up Russian when I went to university and went and lived in Germany and Russia.
And then it led me into my first career, which was marketing in international companies.
So that thread really kind of, it was interesting, even though my father never spoke thoselanguages to me.
(03:48):
it sparked something inside me and it got me really curious about other people, how theytalk.
And I think I probably realized fairly early on that this thing about it's, know, thecommunication is just more than the language we're speaking.
Languages is functional, but communication is emotional.
And that's the bit that I got really very fascinated by.
(04:12):
Language is functional and communication is emotional.
So how did you communicate with your grandparents?
Well, interestingly, I always spoke English to my grandparents.
So again, they still had that overhang, I suppose, of their sense of arriving in the UKand wanting to fit in.
I think later in life, I did try and speak German with my grandmother, but interestingly,I think she found that very difficult.
(04:38):
And she found it almost, she wanted to encourage me.
She understood that things had changed, times had changed, but at the same time,
I think there was a reticence in her just because of some of the things that she probablywent through, which were unspoken, perhaps some of the sort of slight feeling of not
wanting to express that Germaness that, well, she was actually Austrian, she spoke German,but even so, to express that cultural identity.
(05:07):
But at the same time, never lost touch with the roots.
And in fact, I was lucky enough to...
have distant cousins in far-flung places, but also in Europe and in Germany andSwitzerland, in Austria.
And those roots are really important to me today.
In fact, I was in Austria last summer, bringing my own family, my children to understandtheir heritage, their roots.
(05:30):
And my son, even though he isn't learning German officially at school, has picked it up onDuolingo.
And he's decided this is going to be the language he learns.
And he hasn't missed a day.
I think he's on something like
day 563 or something.
I'll look out for him in the diamond league then, Victoria.
I'm on day 890 in Spanish.
(05:53):
wow, that is impressive, goodness.
Well, it's interesting, isn't it?
Because I've gone from nothing.
And actually, my Spanish is not bad now.
Yeah.
And are you speaking it with other people or do you sort of do it just you and then go?
Yeah.
Obviously it's not as good in Spain as it is in bed.
(06:16):
You know, slowly, as they say.
Yeah.
Yeah, how fascinating because.
There's an interview coming up with Tony Castro about music and the sound of coaching.
He's a musician.
And I was just thinking about what you see when you were talking to your grandparents.
(06:41):
What did you see and what did you sense when they were talking to each other before youhad that German insight?
Because you probably picked up a lot, I'm guessing.
think that's the thing that I recognised and it's what also took me into what I do today,which is again, communication isn't just the words that we're saying.
(07:02):
It's the tone of voice, the pace, the volume of your voice.
It's the little raise of the eyebrow or the silence, which is not, nothing's being said,right?
And it's these elements that I'm really, I feel that are important to dissect andunderstand culturally because silence can mean one thing in English, for example, for
(07:28):
people who are perhaps listening and English is their first language, but silence can havea very different meaning in another language.
So I'm just thinking about some of the cultures I've worked with.
So worked at one point with a lot of Japanese clients and
The idea of silence there is very strongly codified into things like, disagree, I'm notgoing to say it to you, but I'm going to indicate to you I'm not happy, or I'm not sure
(07:55):
that we're in the same page.
Equally, you know, the idea of nonverbal communication is very, very cultural.
And that also is something that I really like to deep dive into because you can imaginewhen you're working, and as I do now, working with people across
multiple locations, multiple cultures, they have to work with very diverse teams.
(08:18):
Interpreting others and understanding what they really mean beyond the words can be areally tricky business.
And then really understanding what people mean and what they want you to do, again, isreally hard sometimes.
Yeah, isn't it fascinating?
So why coaching?
(08:39):
I love deep diving.
And I think one of things that I realized even from my own experiences of learninglanguages early in my studies and then moving into marketing and international companies
is that again, you know, we often grow up in an environment where we think this is aboutlearning enough stuff, enough stuff, like I need to know enough stuff and then I'll be
(09:06):
able to do the thing.
And I know that deeply because I was that kid trying to learn all this stuff and get thebest grades and get, do the things.
But what I kind of recognized only kind of really through my own journey and the ways thatI'm now doing my work is that it's actually often about the sense of self and the sense of
(09:29):
confidence.
So...
Even today, when I'm working with people who perhaps are really quite senior leaders intheir organizations, they come to me with a question, which is sometimes about their
language, but more these days about, you know, I'm not sure I'm coming across in the rightway.
(09:50):
I'm not sure my communication is leader-like enough or crisp enough or whatever it mightbe.
But actually deep down underneath,
the questions are confidence related.
And they're related to a real kind of deep doubt about, am I good enough for this role?
(10:11):
Am I good enough to do this?
And I think what I've recognized through that working with people at this level is thatpeople seem very together sometimes.
They seem to be very in charge, in the focus, in the eye of everybody else.
And everybody looks at them and thinks,
wow, they've made it, they've done it.
(10:32):
But what I've discovered time and time again is everybody has those doubts.
Everybody has those confidence questions.
Not permanent either.
It's not kind of like a permanent state, but it is that flow and up and down.
And that's the bit that I'm really interested in.
How can I go deep with people to help them understand this and reframe perhaps the waythey're thinking?
(10:59):
which really opens up opportunities for them through the way that they are going for,whether it's career opportunities or if they are in that space of stepping into more of
their thought leadership and representing their industry more broadly or even theirorganisation speaking, for example.
(11:19):
you're talking I'm noticing the kind of front stage gestures and I'm observing that you'rethat you're actually working with people's backstage so that they can work front stage.
That's a really brilliant way of putting it.
I think that is absolutely it.
(11:40):
Because what people often feel is that they have to do it one way.
They have to perform, in fact.
And what I've kind of realized recently is that we have to deconstruct this almost highperformance mindset when it comes to speaking or showing up as a leader.
(12:02):
because actually what happens is it puts a lot of pressure on.
People feel this sense of, often these are people who, not all of them, but some of themare very driven by this idea of achievement and by that sense of the way that I have been
successful is by setting these incredibly stretching goals and really going for it andgoing for it, going for it, going for it until I get it.
(12:26):
The challenge that they have when it comes to thinking about their communication andspeaking,
is that what I've discovered, and I know this from my own experiences and my own journeyof struggling with speaking, is that when you put that pressure on and you try and make it
like perfect, it's almost like the inverse happens.
You end up making it sounds totally rubbish and it's really hard.
(12:51):
So then what you do to cope with that is you try and perform.
So you try and learn the lines, you try and...
rehearse and rehearse and rehearse until you are perfect and you can act it.
And for sure, that is a path.
That is one way of doing it.
But boy, it really, really is, it hurts.
(13:13):
Like I know it myself.
It takes a huge amount of energy and a huge amount of time to get to that level ofperformance.
And you just can't do that as a leader.
You just don't have that energy and time to be focusing so hard on something.
to then deliver.
So for me, this is much more about, okay, let's not think about this as performance atall.
(13:35):
That's not a helpful way of thinking about this.
Let's think about this as conversation.
Whatever it is, whether you're standing on a stage in front of thousands of people, orwhether we're having a conversation one-to-one, it should always be a conversation.
And that style of communication is actually something I've noticed.
(13:55):
Leaders are almost expected to have these days, to have that sense of self and that senseof confidence that they can speak whatever the context is.
And you've spoke, you know, so many things in that Victoria, because the first way theylearn the lines and do all that is acting, isn't it?
(14:17):
And then it's not showing up as me, it's showing up as something else.
And then you lose the, if I want you to be human with me, I need to be a bit human withyou.
sure.
And I think one of the things I realized is that people have got to use to this placesometimes of putting on a mask to do this.
(14:40):
So they feel like they they look at others and they look out whether those are leadersthey've worked with or whether those are speakers they've admired.
And they try and copy they say, right, that's the style I need to do.
So this is how I'm going to do it.
This is the mask I'm going to put on.
to therefore survive this, to do this, to be that person on the panel or being interviewedby the media, for example.
(15:07):
But the reality is this isn't you.
And again, if we think culturally, take the cultural angle on this, the idea of confidenceis cultural.
So the way that confidence is expressed, for example, in the UK or in the US, if you'vegot some listeners in the US,
might be quite different from how confidence might look like if we go to Japan or Brazil,where I've again, I've worked with a lot of clients there or in France.
(15:36):
So I think, you know, for me, it's about understanding what is your version of confidence?
What does that look like?
Not to put on somebody else's, but almost to think about it like a dial and not to make itreally loud and extrovert.
And that might be you, but it might not be.
(15:56):
but to just sort of dial it up a little bit to understand that it's really about justtaking what you've got and then understanding how you move into your space so that people
feel it and you're projecting you rather than putting something else on a costume.
People feel it because you're projecting you.
(16:17):
And I wonder whether they don't feel it when we're projecting somebody else.
I think deep down inside people notice it, that it's acting.
They might just feel it that like, that's not really you.
And even if it's not said, I think people recognize when people are, others, leaders arein acting mode.
(16:40):
And that comes back down to, you know, trust and the big word of vulnerability, you know,leaders are
being asked, people want to see the real human behind the leader.
They don't want to be like, this is far off person on a pedestal who we're all following.
No, no, no, it's not like that.
(17:02):
A leader is somebody who is, yes, creating a vision, yes, galvanizing people towardssomething.
And at the same time, for people to believe that, they have to feel you.
They have to understand that you're a human, that you don't have all the answers, thatyou're not
perfect and that you will get it wrong.
(17:22):
So, you know, coming back to the idea of speaking, I really believe it's okay to be therekind of, you know, with the ums and the ahs and the, okay, I've just lost my train of
thought.
Let's come back to this.
You have to accept that that is part of being human, part of speaking like a human andtalking like a human.
(17:44):
I was in conversation with one of our listeners, Steve, recently, and he said that when hefirst started listening to The Coaching Inn, the pauses annoyed him because his technical
background, you polish.
He was producing things that were polished.
And then he said, but now I love them.
And somebody put on our Facebook page the other day, there were some beautiful silences inthere.
(18:12):
But there's something isn't there about what we sometimes what we think we ought to doversus actually what's the most genuine and useful thing to do in this situation.
And they're not always the same, are they?
No, I'm just, what I'm thinking as well is that sometimes the silences are allowingactually a real thought to happen, right?
(18:37):
So rather than me listening and simultaneously coming up with, what do I want to say next?
How am I going to respond to this?
Actually, silence is also, okay, I'm genuinely respectfully going to listen to what you'regoing to say and then consider what the answer to that is.
(18:57):
Again, if I relate it to cultures, really, you know, I'm again, I'm very, get veryfascinated by this, but the pace of conversations really varies across cultures.
And in some cultures, it's much more usual to find a sort of almost like simultaneousconversation going on of two or three voices speaking at the same time.
(19:19):
And if you're not used to that, that's really can be quite disconcerting, like what'sgoing on?
Why are they not listening to each other?
but there's a different way of listening.
And then in other cultures, you have a real sort of slowing down and the silences and thepauses indicate also respect sometimes that I'm genuinely listening to you.
(19:42):
I'm considering what you have to say.
And then I'm to respond very thoughtfully to that because you've put into the worldsomething that is worth listening to.
Nice.
So I've got a burning question that's been outrageous.
Do you coach in other languages?
I don't, although I do speak other languages, I am very aware that what I'm trying to dois help people who are usually leaders who want to step into more English speaking leader
(20:14):
roles.
So either they are already in that space.
So they're already in a very large global organization and they've been working in Englishmost of their career.
Alternatively, they may be, maybe they are kind of broadening out their experience.
stepping more into a global career for the first time.
But because English is the language that they're to be using in their working world,that's where I focus.
(20:40):
However, sort of I suppose the other answer to that is, is because I understand languages,clearly I don't speak every language, but because I understand generally how languages
work and where sometimes
miscommunications happen or some of the mistakes may happen.
(21:00):
It can sometimes help me understand the psychology of why somebody might be strugglingwith something, what contexts might be more challenging for them.
So I had a really interesting conversation that was about, is confidence?
Can you be too confident?
(21:21):
Can you come across as arrogant?
And that was a conversation with Somdee from a culture which is very much about creatingrespect and creating a sense of not having open disagreement and conflict.
So.
the concern I could see was coming from the point of view of would I be too strong?
(21:44):
Would I be coming across as being putting myself in the hierarchy above others who may bealmost senior to me or maybe older than me?
Again, that can be a cultural question.
Like how does this hierarchy work?
So these kinds of things are really important to understand linguistically, culturally,but yes, coming back to your question, I do always.
(22:07):
I always, always did my work in English.
Yeah.
So some interesting things there about deference and how we own our personal power whendeference might also be in the culture either because it's my culture or because it's the
culture of the space that I'm working in.
Yeah, I think that transition, particularly when the way that I'm thinking about it oftenwith my clients from their local culture possibly to a global culture, that is something
(22:38):
that sometimes has to shift, particularly in global organizations which are moreinfluenced by UK, US, Western style types of culture where the idea of deference or
respect would be seen as.
perhaps a little strange, perhaps a bit outdated or old fashioned.
(22:59):
And it can, as you can imagine, when it comes to this idea of confidence or speaking,sometimes hold people back because they believe they should wait to listen to the other
voices in the room.
So one of the things that I'm really kind of keen when I'm talking with teams, as well aswith leaders of teams is thinking about, well, what's the share of voice?
(23:23):
of individuals in your teams, who you're hearing from the most and who you're not reallyhearing from.
And that's a really big, question when it comes to the virtual hybrid teams that the vastmajority of people I'm working with do work in, right?
Because the reality is it can be that you kind of almost
(23:47):
forget or people get hidden behind the camera or even if the camera is not even on, right?
So it can be sometimes difficult to judge, you know, is somebody just eating their lunchin the background and they are participating or are they struggling to really speak up and
be heard within the team?
That can be a cultural question as well.
(24:09):
Yeah.
And you're talking about inclusion, aren't you?
And it's interesting because in other spaces where we're doing some work on inclusion,know, often people are sent for coaching so that they can change and be included.
When actually the thing that needs to change is that the organisational culture needs tochange and everybody needs to adapt to be inclusive rather than the person who's
(24:34):
different, whatever that is, being told that they're the one who has to have a coach andadapt.
I'm really pleased you said that Claire, because for me, this is where the other piece ofmy work comes in, which is about cultural intelligence.
So I am, this is a particular approach, which is really thinking about that exactly whatyou just said.
(24:55):
This is not just for certain individuals, but this is for everyone.
And the way that I show up in the world is determined partly by my national culture, butthat's too sort of one dimensional.
I'm a really multi-dimensional person as you are, as every listener is who's listening tothis.
(25:16):
So the way that I show up in the world, in my culture, is really different from others.
And that's shaped by where I live.
I live in London.
The fact that I had some multicultural kind of background heritage.
The fact that I'm a woman and identify as a woman, that I'm heterosexual, that I'mmarried, that I have family, that I'm a business owner.
(25:37):
All these things and more, much more shape who I am.
So it's really, again, one of the things that I really, really like about the culturalintelligence approach is that although we have, there is a course research that talks
about generalizations and averages across nationalities.
We've also got to say, even in a small place like the UK, is really every British personlike every British person?
(26:01):
Of course not.
And so that's where we need cultural intelligence.
And that is not just for one or two people.
That's for everyone to understand how they show up in the world, in their culture, and howare they interacting and communicating with others.
And when are those kind of disconnects going on, and what could be going on there?
(26:23):
You've just completely reframed my rather odd Friday night, which I'll never get back.
I'm now totally intrigued.
What was that?
So we went to a quiz on Friday night with to make up a team with my brother and there andhis friends.
And one of the team is there with her guide dog, so she's blind.
(26:49):
And we all love quizzes.
So we're used to coming first or second, usually in a quiz.
And, you know, if you come forth because there's somebody in the
quiz team, in a quiz team who's absolutely brilliant.
We came last.
And we came last for a number of reasons.
(27:09):
One is that one of us couldn't, most of the questions were on a screen, which put us oneperson down because our friend couldn't see the questions.
She couldn't see the pictures.
And if she could see the pictures, they weren't going to make sense to her because she'snever been, she's never had sight.
And then there was a whole round on Gen Z, which is what do these things, what do thesewords mean in Gen Z?
(27:36):
were four people out of six have got adult children in their late 20s, early 30s.
But Gen Z is a different generation from our own children, even though it's only just downthe line.
So we could not, know, most of those who can answer.
But it reminds me, and I've had other experiences in my life where this has been true,where from time to time, being immersed in something or somewhere where you culturally are
(28:06):
completely out of your depth that isn't on holiday is a really good thing.
Because I remember years ago, I went to bingo with my friend Jackie.
And I don't know why we went.
I think it's because we'd never been and we thought it'd be fun.
And there was some national bingo thing going on.
(28:27):
So bingo is a game where people gather listeners, where they gather and they have to,somebody reads out numbers and you have to mark out the numbers.
And if you get your numbers in a row, then you win.
So we got our numbers in a row.
So we thought we'd won.
And it was a national competition where they were linked to every other bingo hall in theUK.
And we were wrong.
We hadn't won.
(28:48):
So we stopped the whole thing, go, I've won.
And they go, no, you haven't.
But there's something for me about my responsibility as a human being that works withhuman beings to sometimes put myself in places in my own cultural context where I am
(29:08):
completely out of my depth.
And I'd forgotten that until you said that.
So now you have redeemed Friday.
Thank you.
Well, congratulations on coming last.
That is an honor in itself.
And I love your reflections because the point about this is that, again, the people that Iwork with are used to being very in control.
(29:30):
They're used to being knowing the answers, knowing what the right thing to do is or how toapproach something.
So then saying, okay, either you're going to be leading a team, which is really diverseand across multiple locations you've never managed before.
or you're have to relocate and go to a new location.
And your leadership techniques may not work in that context.
(29:53):
And you're gonna have to be really uncomfortable and work out what is gonna work.
And that's not gonna be easy when people are perhaps even looking to you for that answer.
That's the bit.
And so for me, I say, well, it's getting comfortable being uncomfortable.
And as humans, we hate this.
We really hate it.
(30:13):
Like I hate it, like it makes us want to go and back away and lean out of what's going on.
But our cultural intelligence approach is really about if we can keep stepping forward andrecognize a discomfort is just a signal that we're on the right path that actually we're
learning something through that.
(30:34):
That is really a really positive sign.
And by the way, I've owned that the time this recording
I'm not sure when this episode will go out, but I've got a really fascinating episodecoming up on my podcast where I interview the MD of the Royal National Institute of the
Blind, talking about this point about accessibility and what we don't sometimes realizewhen we're thinking about people who are partially sighted or have vision impairments or
(31:07):
perhaps are completely blind.
And that
that particular episode, really that interview, just I learned so much because I realizedhow much I was assuming, taking for granted and not even thinking about even in my day to
day work that I had I do with with people.
So that is a yeah, highly recommend that one because that's one that really kind of reallymade me kind of realize how much I don't know sometimes.
(31:37):
Sitting next to Sandy was an absolute masterclass in blowing my mind open because therewere so many things that I realised I couldn't describe.
So one of the rounds you had to, there were pictures of the Quality Street chocolates,which is a famous English brand of chocolates.
(32:04):
And...
we were meant to work out what was the pink one and what was the red one and what was thegreen one and of course she's never she doesn't know what colours are so she was giving us
really great data so she was saying oh the the toffee one is the one with the lumps on itbut on this picture you couldn't see that so was a drawing it was a coloured in drawing so
(32:29):
so the data she was giving was actually giving the best information that we could use
But the information that we had didn't match the information that she had.
So she was excluded from that round and the next round and the round.
And so sitting next to her and noticing that was really interesting because I was doingsome describing and then I'm going, well.
(32:54):
I'm describing something and that's not going to make any sense either.
Mmm.
Yeah.
And then you translate that into the world of work and you think about what we assumeeverybody can see or hear or what they understand from what we've just said.
I mean, I don't know.
mean, I remember quite distinctly in my, in my first career in having conversations, soI'd lead sort of cross-functional teams and be leading innovation projects.
(33:24):
and I think, well, I said that.
And then they'd say, did you?
And you were like,
I'm pretty sure I said that, but just because you said it doesn't mean somebody's heardit.
And one of the things that I think is so important about these kinds of contexts issometimes you do need to confirm and clarify and make sure people have received the
(33:49):
message.
Just because you said it, it doesn't mean it's heard.
And that's also a very important part of communication.
sometimes we need to be uncomfortable in order to experience how other people feeluncomfortable.
So if you give me the link to that podcast, I'll pop it in the show notes.
(34:12):
Because I'll definitely be listening, adding to your lovely listening stats there,Victoria.
So if people want to talk to you more, how do they get in touch with you?
Well, my natural home is LinkedIn.
I love a bit of LinkedIn.
So I am quite active over there.
I love a good conversation.
So please feel free to connect, follow, drop me a message, say hi.
(34:37):
I'm always really curious to see what people are thinking about.
And equally, got the podcast.
So if people want to come and listen to that, Cultural Communication Confidence is thename of the podcast.
So that comes out every Monday.
And yeah.
We've got some exciting episodes coming up.
So yeah, I would love for people to come and listen to that.
(35:00):
put all those in the show notes.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Thank you Victoria for coming to the Coaching Inn.
It's been great fun.
Thank you so much, Claire.
Really enjoyed it.
And thank you everyone for listening.
We'll be back next week with another episode.
Bye bye.
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