May 14, 2025 • 38 mins
In this episode of The Coaching Inn, host Claire Pedrick speaks with Abbi Buszard about her journey into coaching from the chocolate industry. They explore the use of Play-Doh in coaching sessions, discussing how it fosters creativity, playfulness, and deeper meaning-making for people. Abbi shares insights from her research on the impact of tactile experiences in group coaching, the importance of overcoming stuckness and the role of playfulness in facilitating personal development. The conversation highlights the transformative power of using playful mediums like Play-Doh to enhance coaching practices and create a more engaging and insightful experience for people.
Takeaways:
- Play-Doh can foster creativity and playfulness in coaching.
- Using tactile materials helps clients express themselves better.
- Meaning-making is crucial in the coaching process.
- Playfulness in coaching can alleviate the pressure to be perfect.
- Overcoming stuckness is essential for personal development.
- Coaching should involve both intellectual and sensory experiences.
- The act of creating with Play-Doh can lead to deeper insights.
- Coaches should allow clients to find their own meanings.
Sound Bites
- "It's very hard to be a good Play-Doh artist."
- "The only meaning is the meaning that you've given to it."
- "You just have to let it unfold."
- "Let's look at it and maybe let's touch it a bit."
Contact Abbi through Linked In:
Contact Claire by emailing info@3dcoaching.com or check out our Substack where you can talk with other listeners.
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Coming Up:
- Beth Benatti Kennedy on Resilience
- Soon - Sandra Whiles is here to talk about her new book
Keywords:
coaching, Play-Doh, creativity, group coaching, meaning making, coaching journey, playfulness, stuckness, coaching techniques, personal development
We love having a variety of guests join us! Please remember that inviting someone to participate does not mean we necessarily endorse their views or opinions. We believe in open conversation and sharing different perspectives.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:13):
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick.
Before I introduce you to today's guest, let me just say that the open house at TheCoaching Inn was fabulous and we've decided that we'd like to find a way for you to talk
to each other, our lovely listeners.
So I've started a sub stack as a beta test to see whether that's the way to do it.
(00:36):
Links in the show notes.
So if you want to talk about this episode or about anything else, click below, go to thesub stack and see if you can start a conversation.
All feedback welcome.
Thank you very much for listening to that bit.
So today our guest is Abbi Buszard, who is just a fabulously all-round person.
(00:57):
And when she told me she was doing a master's dissertation on coaching and play dough,what could I do?
but invite her to come to the Coaching Inn.
For those of you who don't know what Play-Doh is, I'm sure that will become apparent indue course.
Welcome, Abbi.
Claire.
(01:17):
Hello.
I could see you.
We did.
It was.
It was glorious.
Three dimensions.
That's what's so important.
Yeah, Abbi came to the presence training, which was a delight.
Also available online if you're not able to come to our UK venues.
(01:39):
So Abbi, tell us about your journey into coaching first before we get to Play-Doh.
Ooh, wow.
So I actually started in chocolate in my career rather than Play-Doh, which is a very goodplace to start.
Having studied law at university and decided I would be a terrible lawyer, I thought I'dbe much better at selling chocolate.
(02:01):
And so I worked at Cadbury for, as was for nearly 10 years.
And I was very lucky there to come across some amazing line managers.
and do some amazing courses.
And there was a real focus on kind of people development in organisations there.
I remember going on this course when I was about 25 called passion for people.
(02:23):
And there was lots of these little stick figures with little purple hearts, which arestuck in my head.
But I guess I was exposed in the organisation I was working in to what I didn't know atthe time was coaching, because it probably wasn't called that.
but was an amazing invitational style of development.
(02:49):
I, after you work in chocolate, you get a bit spoiled by that because everyone wants totalk about their favorite chocolate bar.
So when I left Cadbury, I didn't really have any choice but to go into the drinksindustry.
Cause if there's one thing better than the people want to talk about rather thanchocolate, it's cocktails.
So I worked at Diageo for a while for six, nearly six and a half years.
And that's when I had my first external coaching.
(03:09):
So I was doing commercial leadership roles there and I was leading teams.
But I had my first external, what was called a coach there and kind of had a moment whereI went, this is amazing as a leader, but also can I do this for a job?
Like, is this a thing that I'm allowed to do?
(03:31):
And then that sowed the seeds, I think.
I, you know, I love.
love my time in businesses and working with people, but that was just, I would alwaysknown at some point I would go and try and do my own thing.
I probably thought it was going to be 10 years later, but I just saw the opportunity andthought, right, I'll give it a go.
(03:51):
I'll give myself a year and can always get a proper job if it doesn't work out.
And that was seven years ago.
I haven't had to get a proper job since.
it's, know, and it's, so I went to Henley Business School, did my coaching certificate.
I think I got my first client the week before I started my coaching certificate.
(04:12):
So I had an intense moment of imposter syndrome and then just got on with it andabsolutely loved it.
And then since then I've kind of added group coaching and team coaching to my repertoireand been lucky enough to work with some amazing clients.
yeah, the certificate Henley led onto the masters at Henley.
(04:36):
which led onto the Play Doh, which led onto here.
So it's funny how the path unrolls.
But yeah, it was that.
I think those turning points about working in organisations that took developmentseriously and then actually having the opportunity to experience coaching and realising
(04:57):
what it was and that's what it was called.
These were probably two of the big turning points for me.
And what a beautiful thing you just said, because when you took that first person onbefore you'd started at Henley, you'd
We're so nervous.
Yes, and you have been having conversations like this for 16 and a half years.
(05:20):
Yes.
And isn't it easy to suddenly lose confidence and go, well, I can't be a coach until I'vedone my proper training.
When often we go into proper training because of how we've done what we're doing.
Yeah, yes, that is a really good way of looking at it.
Of course, I knew how to have a conversation.
I knew to listen and I experienced it.
(05:43):
As you say, I'd been doing it.
And it's interesting, I think you start your training and it takes you back a few stepsbecause you go, I've got to remember everything.
I've got to hold all these things in my head and it takes you away from the moment andbeing in kind of presence and...
being able to respond and that is probably the past seven years have probably been myjourney of unlearning that in a way as well and getting more and more comfortable with
(06:12):
just being less ready and more responsive.
You're reminding me of my coach training because I'd also coached, I'd coached for eightyears and that had been my job.
And yet I still felt, maybe, no, I'd coached for more than eight years and it had been myjob.
(06:35):
And then I went into coach training.
But in those days there was so little coach training around.
It was kind of okay, I think, go, I think I, you know, I really want to learn and I wantto do this better.
And I'm also aware that I may have more experience than some of the people who trainingme.
And that's okay, because it's all about learning and throwing things up in the air andseeing how they land, isn't it?
(06:55):
And seeing how they work and.
Mm.
but I think it's such a common thing what you're describing.
And it's true and it's not true.
So, before we talk about whatever made you decide to think about play-doh, for the benefitof those...
and for the benefit of those who don't know what it is, what is Play Doh?
(07:19):
Well, I'm holding for the benefit of those who can see I'm holding for small parts of playdough here.
Play dough is actually the thing I do, I don't know what it's made out of gluten.
I've got some gluten free play dough because I had a, when I did my risk assessment for myexperiment, my research experiment, I went, what if someone's allergic to gluten?
(07:41):
And I was thinking, well, so I found gluten free play dough just in case it turns out.
you know, eat play dough so you don't need to worry about gluten free play day.
But I did feel like I was very well prepared on my risk assessment.
Play dough is this kind of colourful, squishy, modelling clay.
It's very evocative of childhood.
(08:01):
If for anyone who's a parent of a small child, it may induce mild trauma from havingwatched depends how type A you are, guess, but having watched small children mash multiple
colours together to make brown play dough which
frankly, nobody wants.
It's a it's it's kind of a tactile childlike playful material that seems and it smells itsmells of it's got a very distinctive smell.
(08:29):
And the other thing I learned is actually it's it's vanilla apparently and the vanillascent is made by a chocolate company for I think it's Hasbro that I don't know.
Anyway, other play days are available.
but they make it and put it in.
So it's very distinctive.
So it's got very distinctive smell as well.
And it's very easy.
(08:51):
I know a lot of coaches and trainers do use it or have it.
And it's also, there's some interesting studies around how it can help concentration andfocus.
And it's quite useful just to fiddle with it.
been, I've probably, I reconnected with Play-Doh because I have a five-year-old a fewyears ago as an adult.
But, and there's something.
(09:13):
incredibly powerful about watching adults open it and play with it and delight over it andexclaim over the smell and make ridiculous models out of it.
It's very joyful to watch and see what happens when it happens.
(09:33):
They use it a lot in nurseries and play groups and you can make it I've made it You andyou you use flour and water and something else that I can't remember but there'll be a
recipe on the internet So if you love the idea of this lovely listener You can look it upand you can make it yourself wherever you are in the world But you do need to keep it in
(09:54):
an airtight container.
Otherwise, it will go solid
Hmm
like a raw cake raw pastry it's a bit like pastry isn't it
isn't it?
Like pastry, yeah, exactly.
So it kind of, brings back those sense memories of squishing and pushing and mating andyes, it's very, I find it very, I'm very kind of sense based.
(10:19):
I find it very evocative of childhood, but also of just like kind of possibility.
And one of the reasons, one of the things I love about it as well is it's very hard to bea good play dough artist.
No one can make a sculpture that you look at and you go, wow, that is, and I think that'sone of the things about sometimes using art materials and coaching is it does bring up
(10:44):
that imposter syndrome for people around, gosh, I can't draw or I can't.
And there's something around play day where you're like, well, yeah, but everybody canmake like a blob.
So it's something around the, it levels the playing field around expectation really,because our kind of
our picture of it in our heads is probably quite a childish little something that we makefrom it, which helps.
(11:20):
Well, I mean, it's memorable, right?
And my title for my dissertation is Life in Three Dimensions.
So how
And I kind remember the title of my dissertation because I've probably blocked out butit's around, you know, what's the impact on using modelling clay during group coaching.
And how did I come to Playdoh?
(11:41):
Well, I feel I hold this kind of paradox within me as a human being, taking it right back.
On one hand, I'm very, excuse me, very, very playful, very
I like to find a bit of the humor in the situation.
I enjoy finding that kind of lightness that comes and I think it comes really well throughlearning and through coaching and whole, you know, ability to see things and find
(12:14):
something positive from them or something slightly elevated in them.
But I also carry this desire to get things right.
And I've carried those two things with me and sometimes they feel like they're in conflictwith each other.
So, so this idea of playfulness in coaching, I and how we can use it to get rid of that,that requirement for kind of perfect or that expectation and just allow for this
(12:46):
experimental
try something and if it doesn't matter, try something else.
It really calls to me.
I think it's one the things that calls me to coaching generally is this having this spaceto play and experiment and try things on and see what happens and what comes of it.
And so that element really, and as I went through my masters, all the things that are verygestalt-y and embodied and present.
(13:18):
really called to me around that.
And there was a concept called thinkering that came up, we added a module on positivepsychology, and our tutor talked about thinkering, which is this idea of thinking with
your hands and making stuff as you go.
And it really, that really stood out to me as well, because there's something around usingour full body intelligence, all the things that are our fingers, literally our fingertips
(13:46):
that just
gosh, that's that feels important in in coaching.
And so I guess that started to it started to call to me as we went through.
And as I was thinking about my topics, I thought, gosh, I really want to learn more aboutsomething that matters to me and shows up in my coaching and what's important, what I
(14:11):
think is important, because then I'll follow and I wanted to follow my nose.
you
around that and see what happens.
So that kind of caused me and then there was something around.
Well, I mean, it's possible to make a really to do a really boring dissertation.
I was thinking, yes, I could do there's lots of topics I could focus on and it'd beinteresting and I'd learn something that actually, I'd quite like to do something that
(14:34):
maybe it came from working in chocolate and everybody wants to talk about their favoritechocolate bar.
But I thought I want to do something that kind of when I think about it, I'm going tospend a lot of my
my life over this year working on this, want to do something that makes me go, that'sunexpected.
And I wanted to do something that made other people go, that's like play do why would youwant to why is that important?
And so there was something around that.
(14:55):
I started mapping out my possible topics.
And I was talking about play do and everyone all my fellow coach, like coaching MScstudents who were all amazing, we're just like, yeah, no, that's very, you should do that.
You should
you should find that out.
And this idea of kind of, I'm quite a head person, but that's been blocking like using mysenses.
(15:19):
And I've probably been unlearning over the last seven years how to get out of my brainthat I thought was very important and what was required and needed to be successful and
the right thing to do and to be fully inhabit my body and my senses and then use them inservice of.
(15:39):
my co-jees and myself.
Can I say, when you told me you were doing it, I was so excited because, I don't know ifyou know this, but Einstein said you can't solve the problem in the frame in which it was
created.
That's a great quote.
So we've got a principle at 3D that changed the medium and on our coaching courses westart off by training people to draw things instead of talking about them and then we
(16:11):
train them to map them out using stuff that could be Lego or bits or you know.
And when you said that you used Lego, I you used Play-Doh, I suddenly thought that'sanother level.
of changing the medium because what you've now got is you've got something that you canreally touch.
that will change form and shape.
(16:32):
Whereas when you use stuff to map it out, you have to build something and you're buildingsomething out of somebody else's.
So if you're using Lego in coaching, you know, you've got the bricks, it's great.
You could do a thousand billion things, but suddenly with Play-Doh, you've got anothermedium.
And I think that's amazing.
of like making the invisible visible.
(16:54):
just, I'm really drawn to meaning making, but like the kind of almost unconscious, thebeauty of play dough is that it, reveals itself quite slowly.
You know, you ask someone to make a model art play dough and they go, firstly, they lookat you and go, I'm sorry, did you confuse me with a five year old?
Like, I think you'll find them very grown up, serious person.
(17:16):
And then they go, and then they
And it takes time and it takes experimentation and it reveals something.
then as, people make something and through their fingers, they feel the clay, they shapeit, they allow something to come out of it.
And then they look at their model and then they start to tell a story about it.
(17:38):
And even as they tell the story, they're understanding more about it and what they've madeand why, and they find a connection to it.
And I think that is really...
it's just, it's like another level of depth.
takes it beyond just, I, again, I'm really fascinated by doing the work in the coachingsession, not talking about the work.
so like modeling is part of that because it, helps people to understand and go deeper andPlay-Doh allows it to stay, I guess, lighter, more experimental, more,
(18:15):
just, there's a kind of safety to it that lets people look at harder things or unexpectedthings in a different way, which I love.
So yeah, that was why I, and so I wrapped in, know, and I think it's interesting now, kindof, I didn't finish my dissertation, it was almost exactly nearly a year ago and I handed
(18:36):
it in.
And there's loads of things, you if I think back on it, I I could have done this, I couldhave done that, but they're pulling in the elements of, so I did a
an experiment.
I did a research experiment, had two groups, did group coaching, because it's, well,firstly, I didn't think I could manage to coach over 70 people individually within the
time scale, but also group coaching reveals something different and gives a differentmedium as well.
(19:01):
And it was this, and I was trying to isolate, is it the touchy bit, touchy bit, throughyour technical turn, is it the kind of tactile bit of the using it that
that matters or is it the meaning making or the model making and it is the meaning makingthat really matters.
my experiment showed that firstly, firstly, it showed that group coaching has a massivepositive impact on people's creative confidence.
(19:29):
So I measured creative self-efficacy as a measure, creative confidence and wellbeing.
And that and I used a kind of mind body framework for both groups.
my control group and my experiment group.
so, and then one had Play-Doh, one set had Play-Doh, one didn't.
And then I also measured, so I measured things over time as well.
(19:54):
And so it also showed that all group coaching had this impact over time as well oncreative confidence.
So the impact of paying attention to our full body during group coaching and being reallytuned into that.
is really significant and has a really strong positive impact on people's well-being andthen on their creative self confidence.
(20:16):
And then I looked at was it the touch bit that made the difference or is it something moreand it's not just the touch bit.
because I was kind of in is it like just the squishy squishiness but no there's somethingaround the meaning we make about the from the models how we do it and I was a bit this
(20:37):
frustrating thing about doing a masters I mean I
is I was limited.
would like it was a very quantitative, very, you know, I did all the statistics and stuffand it was really, I learned a lot.
It was really interesting, but I kind of really wished I'd captured some qual stuff withit, some actual, some anecdotal piece because the number of people, what people were
(20:59):
saying in the groups that again, that reaction, that child, my gosh, this is amazing.
Like the play dough.
I don't know why I don't use this.
Can I take this?
No, you can't take it.
Yes, you can take
you know, that side of thing, gosh, I feel so much lighter or it was really amazing tohave that.
I mean, I, again, that that's something where people feel really they connect to the moreplayful experimental childhood self.
(21:26):
And I didn't capture that in my dissertation and my research because it wasn't part of my,I to keep it small.
but it, it was, it really, it made me think, gosh, this is, something here around peopleusing
actually using their sense, their touch sense during this, and the meaning making togetherthat just allows for something, a different kind of conversation, a three dimensional
(21:49):
conversation.
Yeah.
And what I love, Abbi, about the meaning making goes back to something you said earlierabout it can't be very accurate and it can't be very arty.
So one of the things that really frustrates me in coaching is when coaches try and makethe meaning.
But of course, if you're making something out of Play-Doh, even if I think I know whatyou're making, it probably doesn't represent at all even the thing that you might be
(22:19):
talking about as you're making it.
Therefore, I really can't, I haven't got a chance of trying to make the meaning for youbecause you have to make the meaning for yourself because the only meaning in this lump of
clay is the meaning that you've given to it.
But that's a sort of, it feels...
the word that came to me is that saved you from your post.
(22:43):
But there is something even there that actually it even more leads to this one.
for the insight to come with the person whose model it is.
Yeah, because it's the ultimate you can't, you can't take someone's, I mean, you can'ttouch someone's play do like that's like, I mean, every five year old knows that right.
(23:03):
But like, it's the, it's the people, you just have to let it unfold.
If you're the coach, or if you're the coachee, you just have to give it the time and thespace and then you make it and then people are really protective of their models as well.
can see like they're holding on to it.
They're
looking at it, they're describing it, they pick it up, you know, they, they keep it whenthey've made it.
(23:28):
And I love that.
And it's a kind of like an artifact of their own, you know, and then people would takephotos of their models or, know, and I use it a lot in coaching now and people take photos
of their models or they, you know, I've used it in a team value session where everyone'sI've asked people to model one of their personal values and then talk about it and
(23:50):
It's just so, again, you get people talking, chatting, laughing, making it, and then theytalk about their models and they go, oh gosh, I didn't realize how important this was, or
I didn't know how to make it, and so I've made this and everyone's going, wow, that'sreally, you know, that's really, I can see what you've done there, or you know,
everything, even I think someone just literally like makes like a blob and be like, thisis, this is like what the inside of my brain feels like when I'm, you know, when I'm.
(24:17):
struggling, you know, when I'm in a meeting and I don't know what to to people and I canjust feel this, like this lump in my throat or this kind of blob in my head.
And it's like, the learnings that they get about themselves and their own sensations andalso other people can understand because again, there's something really, okay, with
playdoh sometimes you need to have the model explained to you, which is part of the magic,but it's, it gives people such a
(24:45):
visual way of understanding what's going on for themselves or for other people, that itcreates something really, really different.
And I love that it's both the act of making it kind of calms people and allows people toget in touch with themselves.
So it kind of primes them for the kind of conversations, but then you then have somethingreally tangible to work with that you as a coach, can't.
(25:08):
be like I noticed your play do model has these very intricate details and you know it'sit's like well tell me about it what's what's going on
So there's something beyond words and there's something about enabling people toarticulate things that they might not have been able to articulate before or see or sense
or Wow.
(25:31):
So how does that work in a group?
It really bonds people together actually and what I noticed, part of my research groupswere in organisations but they were groups so they weren't teams, they were groups of
(25:52):
people from across the organisations and so they didn't know each other very well which isgood.
and there was just this kind of collective...
experience that brought people in to go, you know, and I noticed I had this contrastbetween my non-pladio groups and my pladio groups.
(26:15):
And the non-pladio groups were very, you know, they would still happily talk about it andthey'd reflect on it.
And we use this mind body framework to understand it and to get into their bodies.
But the energy levels that go up, the sense of
it's that kind of childlike it's almost it's like gosh I'm allergic to like icebreakersbut it's like that idea of people going being united behind something that they're doing
(26:42):
together there's like a collectiveness in it and this playfulness and there's lots oflaughter and people looking at each other's models and trying to understand it and then
that talking is that sense of understanding when you see someone else's model and theytalk about it and you understand it it's that gosh yes I get
like I get more of that why that is or tell me more about that it gives people thatinsight into each other.
(27:06):
And I think the beauty of what I love about group coaching is this in group coaching havethis these again, it's these two tensions, these two different elements that pull
together.
So one you have people in a group, they find this familiarity, they find this, there'salmost this collective exhale of gosh, thank goodness, it's not just me.
Like, I yes, you say, you think that I think that too.
(27:27):
gosh, that's, that's really
familiarity is really reassuring.
And I think that's what people get some benefit from group coaching.
But there's also this kind of tension around this, I never would have thought about itthat way, or that unfamiliarity, that kind of different perspective.
And I think when, like groups, all groups hold that and when group coaching really worksis when people experience both of those things, not simultaneously necessary, but over the
(27:54):
course of the session, because it gives them that sense of both collective
understanding but also learning and stretch and challenge or different perspective.
And that's, and I think you get a bit of that with the model making because again, ittakes people, you know, people look and they go, gosh, you know, even from the, I never
would have chosen that colour into the, I didn't, you, you make things differently to meand what's, you know, what have we made that's different?
(28:19):
It's just, it brings this real, brings it right there onto the table.
And it just allows people, and you could do a whole, I mean, I,
We were focusing on why, so they say it's a like you write the book you need, you do theresearch you need.
My research also centres around this idea of being stuck, so that's why I was measuringcreative confidence.
So this idea of how do we get from...
(28:42):
dark, you know, unable to move and it's and I, the reason I was doing it was because Ithink over my masters writing, there's always this period of, you know, I'm writing
academic essays as going back to a place a while ago and relearning some skills.
There was always this period of just being like, I can't do it like I'm like, and thenthere would be this
(29:12):
something would shift and then it would all start to flow and it would be like thisamazing feeling.
it's lit, I mean, I'm chasing that high all the time, right?
That feeling of it suddenly the damn breaking and it all comes out.
It's that, like, so was looking for like, what are the, how do you shift from that stuckstate to that kind of flow state, that sense of just confidence.
(29:36):
It's like that giddy.
almost reckless, like I can do anything kind of feeling around, I've finally got there.
And I think you can't get to that without having the period of which I've learned, but Ialways forget every time I try and write anything, I always forget that's the essential
part of experience.
But there is something through exploring like, what does it take to like, what are thethings because actually you can, even though it goes over time, you can shift it through
(30:02):
trying stuff.
And often it's very physical stuff.
It's often
changing your state.
And it's thinking about how do I move differently?
What do I need to do?
where do I, how do I get out of up here out of my left brain kind of stuckness?
And what do I do?
How do I use my right brain to allow that?
How do I use my body?
How do I, you know, pay attention to my emotions?
(30:22):
Like what's going on?
And so there's something around, I think the tactile, it just completes it.
Like it's part of it.
It's not the only part of it, but it's part of it.
And it's, it's a really interesting way around.
no, I actually I believe I can do this.
I can I can make that difference.
And I think so many people often so often people in fact, think quoted you and mydissertation, Claire, think people often come to coaching with that kind of sense of
(30:46):
stuckness.
And how do we give them as coaches, more, you know, offer them resources that they can trythat may work for some and not for others.
And I love that's what I loved about actually less.
let's bring it all in.
Let's not just stay talking about and I've you know, I've had I've definitely had thosesessions where we've been talking around a problem or we've gone round in circles or we
(31:11):
and you can see the coach he's trying to solve it up here in the head and I noticed myselfstepping into that and feeling very like, yes, let's, let's really intellectualize this
and actually it's, it's a short hand for going, that's not actually, let's not do that atall.
Let's find a different way of
shifting it, because actually you take a step back and then you see a different waythrough or all that starts to flow.
(31:35):
As you said, let's take it to step back.
You just move back.
There's a big shift for me.
You know, when you do things and you're not conscious of them and then suddenly you areconscious and you think, yeah, that's quite a good idea.
So one of the things that I'm learning over the last year is that actually I lean back alot and it's almost always to move from let's talk about it to let's look at it.
(32:01):
because it just opens up the space and that's what you're describing and you'redescribing, let's look at it and maybe let's touch it a bit.
Yeah, let's squish it a bit and see whether it squishes back.
Yeah.
when I started delivering coach training in 2003, we did half a day on stuckness.
(32:22):
How to support people when they're stuck in coaching.
Now I have one line.
Now I have one line.
Move.
It's, you know, and again, there isn't much research about stuckness in coach, which Ithink is interesting because it's because and I don't know, maybe it's just me overlaying
(32:45):
my own lens.
But and that's why I go to coaching.
But it is.
It's that I think everyone actually is really interesting.
I did a session on my research.
and was for the MBA students at Henley.
And it was quite fun to go back, although it was very weird being in like a teacher'schair and I was like, I'm not sure, I'm, ooh, this is a weird sensation.
(33:07):
But it was very interesting to go back and talk about it.
And I said to people, whenever I talked to people about that stuck state, and I get peopleto evoke that state and then explore the different kind of, what's going on for them in
different areas.
And there was one guy, and I think he was from Scandinavia, he was like, no, I've neverbeen stuck.
I was like.
What about now?
(33:30):
I was like, he's like, don't know what to write down because I've never been stuck.
was like, so how are you feeling right in this moment?
And he's like, well, I don't know where to move.
I feel a bit confused.
I'm like, write it down.
Right, you've been stuck.
Great, great experience.
And it was just, I feel like it is something that people can recognise and then...
(33:56):
Maybe not.
mean, maybe if you haven't experienced stuckness, I can recommend going and trying towrite a 10,000 word dissertation and you will then experience the highs and lows of that.
And the highs are so high, like honestly, there's something about that rush of like whenit's, when the words start to flow, it's just, I'm basically, that's what the play days
for, I'm chasing that, that sensation now all the time.
(34:20):
I could have done with you when I was writing in Spain the other day.
When after four days and 30,000 words, I think it was in the bin, I realised that thatalways happens.
Exactly what you said, it always happens, it's normal.
Just get through that and then you'll move.
Well, Abbi, what an absolute delight to talk to you.
(34:40):
I bet you wish.
Have you got any Play-Doh in your house, Claire?
Do you?
I have got air clay.
yes, Slightly different sensation.
stuck because it dries and then it's something permanent.
yeah, but one of my adventures shortly is to go on a pottery throwing class.
(35:06):
And I'm hoping that when I come back from the pottery throwing class, I will go to the airclay.
I used to have a lot of Play-Doh in my house and I have been known to make it with glitterand all the shiny things.
love it.
But like, and clay is another, like, so a lot of the researchers around using kind ofclay, like, probably clay, and there's, I did one of my rewards to myself after I finished
(35:28):
my dissertation was to go and do a few arty things without kind of purpose.
So I went and did a six week wheel, like pottery wheel course.
And that is another, like, there's something about that, it's such a...
grounding and sensation based experience using a pottery wheel, I think, and the strengththat's required from it.
(35:49):
it's the way it just, I found it just appears, like what you create just appears fromnowhere, like your hands being led by your hands and seeing what comes and what's shaped
and like, and then, and you get really attached to it and then it goes, and falls off.
And then you kind of, you're like, let's start again.
it's such a like.
(36:10):
sense based experience.
just found it so intensely.
It's probably the most present I've ever been, I think was using a pottery wheel becauseit's you're so focused on the that connection to the ground and your hands on the on the
clay and the wheel and it's just yeah, I think you're gonna love it.
(36:31):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's like a dance.
That's so beautiful.
how do people get in touch with you if they want to talk more, Abbi?
Oh, come and find me on LinkedIn.
So Abbi Buzzard, A-B-B-I-B-U-S-Z-A-R-D, just to confuse everybody.
It's the S and the Z, it freaks people out.
(36:52):
Come and find me on there.
I mean, I have a website, but it's kind of more of a sense of, come and find me onLinkedIn.
LinkedIn's the easiest way, I think.
So thank you.
Thank you, Claire.
Thank you, Abbi.
What a delight to have you here.
And thank you everyone for listening.
And if you're the person who goes straight to make some or use it, send us a pic in thediscussion on the sub stack.
(37:20):
The details are below.
Yes, I'd love to see everybody's model.
What's going on in your head?
What's blocking me?
That's a good question.
If people need a question, like, what's blocking me or what do I need today?
Like ask yourself about your resources and might tap into something a bit moreunconscious.
Nice.
(37:41):
There you are.
There's a top tip in the final minute.
Thanks for listening everybody.
See you next time.
Bye bye.
Bye.
Hello and welcome to this week's edition of The Coaching Inn.
I'm your host, Claire Pedrick.
Before I introduce you to today's guest, let me just say that the open house at TheCoaching Inn was fabulous and we've decided that we'd like to find a way for you to talk
to each other, our lovely listeners.
So I've started a sub stack as a beta test to see whether that's the way to do it.
(00:36):
Links in the show notes.
So if you want to talk about this episode or about anything else, click below, go to thesub stack and see if you can start a conversation.
All feedback welcome.
Thank you very much for listening to that bit.
So today our guest is Abbi Buszard, who is just a fabulously all-round person.
(00:57):
And when she told me she was doing a master's dissertation on coaching and play dough,what could I do?
but invite her to come to the Coaching Inn.
For those of you who don't know what Play-Doh is, I'm sure that will become apparent indue course.
Welcome, Abbi.
Claire.
(01:17):
Hello.
I could see you.
We did.
It was.
It was glorious.
Three dimensions.
That's what's so important.
Yeah, Abbi came to the presence training, which was a delight.
Also available online if you're not able to come to our UK venues.
(01:39):
So Abbi, tell us about your journey into coaching first before we get to Play-Doh.
Ooh, wow.
So I actually started in chocolate in my career rather than Play-Doh, which is a very goodplace to start.
Having studied law at university and decided I would be a terrible lawyer, I thought I'dbe much better at selling chocolate.
(02:01):
And so I worked at Cadbury for, as was for nearly 10 years.
And I was very lucky there to come across some amazing line managers.
and do some amazing courses.
And there was a real focus on kind of people development in organisations there.
I remember going on this course when I was about 25 called passion for people.
(02:23):
And there was lots of these little stick figures with little purple hearts, which arestuck in my head.
But I guess I was exposed in the organisation I was working in to what I didn't know atthe time was coaching, because it probably wasn't called that.
but was an amazing invitational style of development.
(02:49):
I, after you work in chocolate, you get a bit spoiled by that because everyone wants totalk about their favorite chocolate bar.
So when I left Cadbury, I didn't really have any choice but to go into the drinksindustry.
Cause if there's one thing better than the people want to talk about rather thanchocolate, it's cocktails.
So I worked at Diageo for a while for six, nearly six and a half years.
And that's when I had my first external coaching.
(03:09):
So I was doing commercial leadership roles there and I was leading teams.
But I had my first external, what was called a coach there and kind of had a moment whereI went, this is amazing as a leader, but also can I do this for a job?
Like, is this a thing that I'm allowed to do?
(03:31):
And then that sowed the seeds, I think.
I, you know, I love.
love my time in businesses and working with people, but that was just, I would alwaysknown at some point I would go and try and do my own thing.
I probably thought it was going to be 10 years later, but I just saw the opportunity andthought, right, I'll give it a go.
(03:51):
I'll give myself a year and can always get a proper job if it doesn't work out.
And that was seven years ago.
I haven't had to get a proper job since.
it's, know, and it's, so I went to Henley Business School, did my coaching certificate.
I think I got my first client the week before I started my coaching certificate.
(04:12):
So I had an intense moment of imposter syndrome and then just got on with it andabsolutely loved it.
And then since then I've kind of added group coaching and team coaching to my repertoireand been lucky enough to work with some amazing clients.
yeah, the certificate Henley led onto the masters at Henley.
(04:36):
which led onto the Play Doh, which led onto here.
So it's funny how the path unrolls.
But yeah, it was that.
I think those turning points about working in organisations that took developmentseriously and then actually having the opportunity to experience coaching and realising
(04:57):
what it was and that's what it was called.
These were probably two of the big turning points for me.
And what a beautiful thing you just said, because when you took that first person onbefore you'd started at Henley, you'd
We're so nervous.
Yes, and you have been having conversations like this for 16 and a half years.
(05:20):
Yes.
And isn't it easy to suddenly lose confidence and go, well, I can't be a coach until I'vedone my proper training.
When often we go into proper training because of how we've done what we're doing.
Yeah, yes, that is a really good way of looking at it.
Of course, I knew how to have a conversation.
I knew to listen and I experienced it.
(05:43):
As you say, I'd been doing it.
And it's interesting, I think you start your training and it takes you back a few stepsbecause you go, I've got to remember everything.
I've got to hold all these things in my head and it takes you away from the moment andbeing in kind of presence and...
being able to respond and that is probably the past seven years have probably been myjourney of unlearning that in a way as well and getting more and more comfortable with
(06:12):
just being less ready and more responsive.
You're reminding me of my coach training because I'd also coached, I'd coached for eightyears and that had been my job.
And yet I still felt, maybe, no, I'd coached for more than eight years and it had been myjob.
(06:35):
And then I went into coach training.
But in those days there was so little coach training around.
It was kind of okay, I think, go, I think I, you know, I really want to learn and I wantto do this better.
And I'm also aware that I may have more experience than some of the people who trainingme.
And that's okay, because it's all about learning and throwing things up in the air andseeing how they land, isn't it?
(06:55):
And seeing how they work and.
Mm.
but I think it's such a common thing what you're describing.
And it's true and it's not true.
So, before we talk about whatever made you decide to think about play-doh, for the benefitof those...
and for the benefit of those who don't know what it is, what is Play Doh?
(07:19):
Well, I'm holding for the benefit of those who can see I'm holding for small parts of playdough here.
Play dough is actually the thing I do, I don't know what it's made out of gluten.
I've got some gluten free play dough because I had a, when I did my risk assessment for myexperiment, my research experiment, I went, what if someone's allergic to gluten?
(07:41):
And I was thinking, well, so I found gluten free play dough just in case it turns out.
you know, eat play dough so you don't need to worry about gluten free play day.
But I did feel like I was very well prepared on my risk assessment.
Play dough is this kind of colourful, squishy, modelling clay.
It's very evocative of childhood.
(08:01):
If for anyone who's a parent of a small child, it may induce mild trauma from havingwatched depends how type A you are, guess, but having watched small children mash multiple
colours together to make brown play dough which
frankly, nobody wants.
It's a it's it's kind of a tactile childlike playful material that seems and it smells itsmells of it's got a very distinctive smell.
(08:29):
And the other thing I learned is actually it's it's vanilla apparently and the vanillascent is made by a chocolate company for I think it's Hasbro that I don't know.
Anyway, other play days are available.
but they make it and put it in.
So it's very distinctive.
So it's got very distinctive smell as well.
And it's very easy.
(08:51):
I know a lot of coaches and trainers do use it or have it.
And it's also, there's some interesting studies around how it can help concentration andfocus.
And it's quite useful just to fiddle with it.
been, I've probably, I reconnected with Play-Doh because I have a five-year-old a fewyears ago as an adult.
But, and there's something.
(09:13):
incredibly powerful about watching adults open it and play with it and delight over it andexclaim over the smell and make ridiculous models out of it.
It's very joyful to watch and see what happens when it happens.
(09:33):
They use it a lot in nurseries and play groups and you can make it I've made it You andyou you use flour and water and something else that I can't remember but there'll be a
recipe on the internet So if you love the idea of this lovely listener You can look it upand you can make it yourself wherever you are in the world But you do need to keep it in
(09:54):
an airtight container.
Otherwise, it will go solid
Hmm
like a raw cake raw pastry it's a bit like pastry isn't it
isn't it?
Like pastry, yeah, exactly.
So it kind of, brings back those sense memories of squishing and pushing and mating andyes, it's very, I find it very, I'm very kind of sense based.
(10:19):
I find it very evocative of childhood, but also of just like kind of possibility.
And one of the reasons, one of the things I love about it as well is it's very hard to bea good play dough artist.
No one can make a sculpture that you look at and you go, wow, that is, and I think that'sone of the things about sometimes using art materials and coaching is it does bring up
(10:44):
that imposter syndrome for people around, gosh, I can't draw or I can't.
And there's something around play day where you're like, well, yeah, but everybody canmake like a blob.
So it's something around the, it levels the playing field around expectation really,because our kind of
our picture of it in our heads is probably quite a childish little something that we makefrom it, which helps.
(11:20):
Well, I mean, it's memorable, right?
And my title for my dissertation is Life in Three Dimensions.
So how
And I kind remember the title of my dissertation because I've probably blocked out butit's around, you know, what's the impact on using modelling clay during group coaching.
And how did I come to Playdoh?
(11:41):
Well, I feel I hold this kind of paradox within me as a human being, taking it right back.
On one hand, I'm very, excuse me, very, very playful, very
I like to find a bit of the humor in the situation.
I enjoy finding that kind of lightness that comes and I think it comes really well throughlearning and through coaching and whole, you know, ability to see things and find
(12:14):
something positive from them or something slightly elevated in them.
But I also carry this desire to get things right.
And I've carried those two things with me and sometimes they feel like they're in conflictwith each other.
So, so this idea of playfulness in coaching, I and how we can use it to get rid of that,that requirement for kind of perfect or that expectation and just allow for this
(12:46):
experimental
try something and if it doesn't matter, try something else.
It really calls to me.
I think it's one the things that calls me to coaching generally is this having this spaceto play and experiment and try things on and see what happens and what comes of it.
And so that element really, and as I went through my masters, all the things that are verygestalt-y and embodied and present.
(13:18):
really called to me around that.
And there was a concept called thinkering that came up, we added a module on positivepsychology, and our tutor talked about thinkering, which is this idea of thinking with
your hands and making stuff as you go.
And it really, that really stood out to me as well, because there's something around usingour full body intelligence, all the things that are our fingers, literally our fingertips
(13:46):
that just
gosh, that's that feels important in in coaching.
And so I guess that started to it started to call to me as we went through.
And as I was thinking about my topics, I thought, gosh, I really want to learn more aboutsomething that matters to me and shows up in my coaching and what's important, what I
(14:11):
think is important, because then I'll follow and I wanted to follow my nose.
you
around that and see what happens.
So that kind of caused me and then there was something around.
Well, I mean, it's possible to make a really to do a really boring dissertation.
I was thinking, yes, I could do there's lots of topics I could focus on and it'd beinteresting and I'd learn something that actually, I'd quite like to do something that
(14:34):
maybe it came from working in chocolate and everybody wants to talk about their favoritechocolate bar.
But I thought I want to do something that kind of when I think about it, I'm going tospend a lot of my
my life over this year working on this, want to do something that makes me go, that'sunexpected.
And I wanted to do something that made other people go, that's like play do why would youwant to why is that important?
And so there was something around that.
(14:55):
I started mapping out my possible topics.
And I was talking about play do and everyone all my fellow coach, like coaching MScstudents who were all amazing, we're just like, yeah, no, that's very, you should do that.
You should
you should find that out.
And this idea of kind of, I'm quite a head person, but that's been blocking like using mysenses.
(15:19):
And I've probably been unlearning over the last seven years how to get out of my brainthat I thought was very important and what was required and needed to be successful and
the right thing to do and to be fully inhabit my body and my senses and then use them inservice of.
(15:39):
my co-jees and myself.
Can I say, when you told me you were doing it, I was so excited because, I don't know ifyou know this, but Einstein said you can't solve the problem in the frame in which it was
created.
That's a great quote.
So we've got a principle at 3D that changed the medium and on our coaching courses westart off by training people to draw things instead of talking about them and then we
(16:11):
train them to map them out using stuff that could be Lego or bits or you know.
And when you said that you used Lego, I you used Play-Doh, I suddenly thought that'sanother level.
of changing the medium because what you've now got is you've got something that you canreally touch.
that will change form and shape.
(16:32):
Whereas when you use stuff to map it out, you have to build something and you're buildingsomething out of somebody else's.
So if you're using Lego in coaching, you know, you've got the bricks, it's great.
You could do a thousand billion things, but suddenly with Play-Doh, you've got anothermedium.
And I think that's amazing.
of like making the invisible visible.
(16:54):
just, I'm really drawn to meaning making, but like the kind of almost unconscious, thebeauty of play dough is that it, reveals itself quite slowly.
You know, you ask someone to make a model art play dough and they go, firstly, they lookat you and go, I'm sorry, did you confuse me with a five year old?
Like, I think you'll find them very grown up, serious person.
(17:16):
And then they go, and then they
And it takes time and it takes experimentation and it reveals something.
then as, people make something and through their fingers, they feel the clay, they shapeit, they allow something to come out of it.
And then they look at their model and then they start to tell a story about it.
(17:38):
And even as they tell the story, they're understanding more about it and what they've madeand why, and they find a connection to it.
And I think that is really...
it's just, it's like another level of depth.
takes it beyond just, I, again, I'm really fascinated by doing the work in the coachingsession, not talking about the work.
so like modeling is part of that because it, helps people to understand and go deeper andPlay-Doh allows it to stay, I guess, lighter, more experimental, more,
(18:15):
just, there's a kind of safety to it that lets people look at harder things or unexpectedthings in a different way, which I love.
So yeah, that was why I, and so I wrapped in, know, and I think it's interesting now, kindof, I didn't finish my dissertation, it was almost exactly nearly a year ago and I handed
(18:36):
it in.
And there's loads of things, you if I think back on it, I I could have done this, I couldhave done that, but they're pulling in the elements of, so I did a
an experiment.
I did a research experiment, had two groups, did group coaching, because it's, well,firstly, I didn't think I could manage to coach over 70 people individually within the
time scale, but also group coaching reveals something different and gives a differentmedium as well.
(19:01):
And it was this, and I was trying to isolate, is it the touchy bit, touchy bit, throughyour technical turn, is it the kind of tactile bit of the using it that
that matters or is it the meaning making or the model making and it is the meaning makingthat really matters.
my experiment showed that firstly, firstly, it showed that group coaching has a massivepositive impact on people's creative confidence.
(19:29):
So I measured creative self-efficacy as a measure, creative confidence and wellbeing.
And that and I used a kind of mind body framework for both groups.
my control group and my experiment group.
so, and then one had Play-Doh, one set had Play-Doh, one didn't.
And then I also measured, so I measured things over time as well.
(19:54):
And so it also showed that all group coaching had this impact over time as well oncreative confidence.
So the impact of paying attention to our full body during group coaching and being reallytuned into that.
is really significant and has a really strong positive impact on people's well-being andthen on their creative self confidence.
(20:16):
And then I looked at was it the touch bit that made the difference or is it something moreand it's not just the touch bit.
because I was kind of in is it like just the squishy squishiness but no there's somethingaround the meaning we make about the from the models how we do it and I was a bit this
(20:37):
frustrating thing about doing a masters I mean I
is I was limited.
would like it was a very quantitative, very, you know, I did all the statistics and stuffand it was really, I learned a lot.
It was really interesting, but I kind of really wished I'd captured some qual stuff withit, some actual, some anecdotal piece because the number of people, what people were
(20:59):
saying in the groups that again, that reaction, that child, my gosh, this is amazing.
Like the play dough.
I don't know why I don't use this.
Can I take this?
No, you can't take it.
Yes, you can take
you know, that side of thing, gosh, I feel so much lighter or it was really amazing tohave that.
I mean, I, again, that that's something where people feel really they connect to the moreplayful experimental childhood self.
(21:26):
And I didn't capture that in my dissertation and my research because it wasn't part of my,I to keep it small.
but it, it was, it really, it made me think, gosh, this is, something here around peopleusing
actually using their sense, their touch sense during this, and the meaning making togetherthat just allows for something, a different kind of conversation, a three dimensional
(21:49):
conversation.
Yeah.
And what I love, Abbi, about the meaning making goes back to something you said earlierabout it can't be very accurate and it can't be very arty.
So one of the things that really frustrates me in coaching is when coaches try and makethe meaning.
But of course, if you're making something out of Play-Doh, even if I think I know whatyou're making, it probably doesn't represent at all even the thing that you might be
(22:19):
talking about as you're making it.
Therefore, I really can't, I haven't got a chance of trying to make the meaning for youbecause you have to make the meaning for yourself because the only meaning in this lump of
clay is the meaning that you've given to it.
But that's a sort of, it feels...
the word that came to me is that saved you from your post.
(22:43):
But there is something even there that actually it even more leads to this one.
for the insight to come with the person whose model it is.
Yeah, because it's the ultimate you can't, you can't take someone's, I mean, you can'ttouch someone's play do like that's like, I mean, every five year old knows that right.
(23:03):
But like, it's the, it's the people, you just have to let it unfold.
If you're the coach, or if you're the coachee, you just have to give it the time and thespace and then you make it and then people are really protective of their models as well.
can see like they're holding on to it.
They're
looking at it, they're describing it, they pick it up, you know, they, they keep it whenthey've made it.
(23:28):
And I love that.
And it's a kind of like an artifact of their own, you know, and then people would takephotos of their models or, know, and I use it a lot in coaching now and people take photos
of their models or they, you know, I've used it in a team value session where everyone'sI've asked people to model one of their personal values and then talk about it and
(23:50):
It's just so, again, you get people talking, chatting, laughing, making it, and then theytalk about their models and they go, oh gosh, I didn't realize how important this was, or
I didn't know how to make it, and so I've made this and everyone's going, wow, that'sreally, you know, that's really, I can see what you've done there, or you know,
everything, even I think someone just literally like makes like a blob and be like, thisis, this is like what the inside of my brain feels like when I'm, you know, when I'm.
(24:17):
struggling, you know, when I'm in a meeting and I don't know what to to people and I canjust feel this, like this lump in my throat or this kind of blob in my head.
And it's like, the learnings that they get about themselves and their own sensations andalso other people can understand because again, there's something really, okay, with
playdoh sometimes you need to have the model explained to you, which is part of the magic,but it's, it gives people such a
(24:45):
visual way of understanding what's going on for themselves or for other people, that itcreates something really, really different.
And I love that it's both the act of making it kind of calms people and allows people toget in touch with themselves.
So it kind of primes them for the kind of conversations, but then you then have somethingreally tangible to work with that you as a coach, can't.
(25:08):
be like I noticed your play do model has these very intricate details and you know it'sit's like well tell me about it what's what's going on
So there's something beyond words and there's something about enabling people toarticulate things that they might not have been able to articulate before or see or sense
or Wow.
(25:31):
So how does that work in a group?
It really bonds people together actually and what I noticed, part of my research groupswere in organisations but they were groups so they weren't teams, they were groups of
(25:52):
people from across the organisations and so they didn't know each other very well which isgood.
and there was just this kind of collective...
experience that brought people in to go, you know, and I noticed I had this contrastbetween my non-pladio groups and my pladio groups.
(26:15):
And the non-pladio groups were very, you know, they would still happily talk about it andthey'd reflect on it.
And we use this mind body framework to understand it and to get into their bodies.
But the energy levels that go up, the sense of
it's that kind of childlike it's almost it's like gosh I'm allergic to like icebreakersbut it's like that idea of people going being united behind something that they're doing
(26:42):
together there's like a collectiveness in it and this playfulness and there's lots oflaughter and people looking at each other's models and trying to understand it and then
that talking is that sense of understanding when you see someone else's model and theytalk about it and you understand it it's that gosh yes I get
like I get more of that why that is or tell me more about that it gives people thatinsight into each other.
(27:06):
And I think the beauty of what I love about group coaching is this in group coaching havethis these again, it's these two tensions, these two different elements that pull
together.
So one you have people in a group, they find this familiarity, they find this, there'salmost this collective exhale of gosh, thank goodness, it's not just me.
Like, I yes, you say, you think that I think that too.
(27:27):
gosh, that's, that's really
familiarity is really reassuring.
And I think that's what people get some benefit from group coaching.
But there's also this kind of tension around this, I never would have thought about itthat way, or that unfamiliarity, that kind of different perspective.
And I think when, like groups, all groups hold that and when group coaching really worksis when people experience both of those things, not simultaneously necessary, but over the
(27:54):
course of the session, because it gives them that sense of both collective
understanding but also learning and stretch and challenge or different perspective.
And that's, and I think you get a bit of that with the model making because again, ittakes people, you know, people look and they go, gosh, you know, even from the, I never
would have chosen that colour into the, I didn't, you, you make things differently to meand what's, you know, what have we made that's different?
(28:19):
It's just, it brings this real, brings it right there onto the table.
And it just allows people, and you could do a whole, I mean, I,
We were focusing on why, so they say it's a like you write the book you need, you do theresearch you need.
My research also centres around this idea of being stuck, so that's why I was measuringcreative confidence.
So this idea of how do we get from...
(28:42):
dark, you know, unable to move and it's and I, the reason I was doing it was because Ithink over my masters writing, there's always this period of, you know, I'm writing
academic essays as going back to a place a while ago and relearning some skills.
There was always this period of just being like, I can't do it like I'm like, and thenthere would be this
(29:12):
something would shift and then it would all start to flow and it would be like thisamazing feeling.
it's lit, I mean, I'm chasing that high all the time, right?
That feeling of it suddenly the damn breaking and it all comes out.
It's that, like, so was looking for like, what are the, how do you shift from that stuckstate to that kind of flow state, that sense of just confidence.
(29:36):
It's like that giddy.
almost reckless, like I can do anything kind of feeling around, I've finally got there.
And I think you can't get to that without having the period of which I've learned, but Ialways forget every time I try and write anything, I always forget that's the essential
part of experience.
But there is something through exploring like, what does it take to like, what are thethings because actually you can, even though it goes over time, you can shift it through
(30:02):
trying stuff.
And often it's very physical stuff.
It's often
changing your state.
And it's thinking about how do I move differently?
What do I need to do?
where do I, how do I get out of up here out of my left brain kind of stuckness?
And what do I do?
How do I use my right brain to allow that?
How do I use my body?
How do I, you know, pay attention to my emotions?
(30:22):
Like what's going on?
And so there's something around, I think the tactile, it just completes it.
Like it's part of it.
It's not the only part of it, but it's part of it.
And it's, it's a really interesting way around.
no, I actually I believe I can do this.
I can I can make that difference.
And I think so many people often so often people in fact, think quoted you and mydissertation, Claire, think people often come to coaching with that kind of sense of
(30:46):
stuckness.
And how do we give them as coaches, more, you know, offer them resources that they can trythat may work for some and not for others.
And I love that's what I loved about actually less.
let's bring it all in.
Let's not just stay talking about and I've you know, I've had I've definitely had thosesessions where we've been talking around a problem or we've gone round in circles or we
(31:11):
and you can see the coach he's trying to solve it up here in the head and I noticed myselfstepping into that and feeling very like, yes, let's, let's really intellectualize this
and actually it's, it's a short hand for going, that's not actually, let's not do that atall.
Let's find a different way of
shifting it, because actually you take a step back and then you see a different waythrough or all that starts to flow.
(31:35):
As you said, let's take it to step back.
You just move back.
There's a big shift for me.
You know, when you do things and you're not conscious of them and then suddenly you areconscious and you think, yeah, that's quite a good idea.
So one of the things that I'm learning over the last year is that actually I lean back alot and it's almost always to move from let's talk about it to let's look at it.
(32:01):
because it just opens up the space and that's what you're describing and you'redescribing, let's look at it and maybe let's touch it a bit.
Yeah, let's squish it a bit and see whether it squishes back.
Yeah.
when I started delivering coach training in 2003, we did half a day on stuckness.
(32:22):
How to support people when they're stuck in coaching.
Now I have one line.
Now I have one line.
Move.
It's, you know, and again, there isn't much research about stuckness in coach, which Ithink is interesting because it's because and I don't know, maybe it's just me overlaying
(32:45):
my own lens.
But and that's why I go to coaching.
But it is.
It's that I think everyone actually is really interesting.
I did a session on my research.
and was for the MBA students at Henley.
And it was quite fun to go back, although it was very weird being in like a teacher'schair and I was like, I'm not sure, I'm, ooh, this is a weird sensation.
(33:07):
But it was very interesting to go back and talk about it.
And I said to people, whenever I talked to people about that stuck state, and I get peopleto evoke that state and then explore the different kind of, what's going on for them in
different areas.
And there was one guy, and I think he was from Scandinavia, he was like, no, I've neverbeen stuck.
I was like.
What about now?
(33:30):
I was like, he's like, don't know what to write down because I've never been stuck.
was like, so how are you feeling right in this moment?
And he's like, well, I don't know where to move.
I feel a bit confused.
I'm like, write it down.
Right, you've been stuck.
Great, great experience.
And it was just, I feel like it is something that people can recognise and then...
(33:56):
Maybe not.
mean, maybe if you haven't experienced stuckness, I can recommend going and trying towrite a 10,000 word dissertation and you will then experience the highs and lows of that.
And the highs are so high, like honestly, there's something about that rush of like whenit's, when the words start to flow, it's just, I'm basically, that's what the play days
for, I'm chasing that, that sensation now all the time.
(34:20):
I could have done with you when I was writing in Spain the other day.
When after four days and 30,000 words, I think it was in the bin, I realised that thatalways happens.
Exactly what you said, it always happens, it's normal.
Just get through that and then you'll move.
Well, Abbi, what an absolute delight to talk to you.
(34:40):
I bet you wish.
Have you got any Play-Doh in your house, Claire?
Do you?
I have got air clay.
yes, Slightly different sensation.
stuck because it dries and then it's something permanent.
yeah, but one of my adventures shortly is to go on a pottery throwing class.
(35:06):
And I'm hoping that when I come back from the pottery throwing class, I will go to the airclay.
I used to have a lot of Play-Doh in my house and I have been known to make it with glitterand all the shiny things.
love it.
But like, and clay is another, like, so a lot of the researchers around using kind ofclay, like, probably clay, and there's, I did one of my rewards to myself after I finished
(35:28):
my dissertation was to go and do a few arty things without kind of purpose.
So I went and did a six week wheel, like pottery wheel course.
And that is another, like, there's something about that, it's such a...
grounding and sensation based experience using a pottery wheel, I think, and the strengththat's required from it.
(35:49):
it's the way it just, I found it just appears, like what you create just appears fromnowhere, like your hands being led by your hands and seeing what comes and what's shaped
and like, and then, and you get really attached to it and then it goes, and falls off.
And then you kind of, you're like, let's start again.
it's such a like.
(36:10):
sense based experience.
just found it so intensely.
It's probably the most present I've ever been, I think was using a pottery wheel becauseit's you're so focused on the that connection to the ground and your hands on the on the
clay and the wheel and it's just yeah, I think you're gonna love it.
(36:31):
Yeah.
Yeah, it's like a dance.
That's so beautiful.
how do people get in touch with you if they want to talk more, Abbi?
Oh, come and find me on LinkedIn.
So Abbi Buzzard, A-B-B-I-B-U-S-Z-A-R-D, just to confuse everybody.
It's the S and the Z, it freaks people out.
(36:52):
Come and find me on there.
I mean, I have a website, but it's kind of more of a sense of, come and find me onLinkedIn.
LinkedIn's the easiest way, I think.
So thank you.
Thank you, Claire.
Thank you, Abbi.
What a delight to have you here.
And thank you everyone for listening.
And if you're the person who goes straight to make some or use it, send us a pic in thediscussion on the sub stack.
(37:20):
The details are below.
Yes, I'd love to see everybody's model.
What's going on in your head?
What's blocking me?
That's a good question.
If people need a question, like, what's blocking me or what do I need today?
Like ask yourself about your resources and might tap into something a bit moreunconscious.
Nice.
(37:41):
There you are.
There's a top tip in the final minute.
Thanks for listening everybody.
See you next time.
Bye bye.
Bye.
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