011 - Resource Planning, PMOs & the Future of AI with Ahmed AbdelSalam - The Major Project Podcast

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome to Major Project Podcast.
I'm Ryan Matthews and I'm excited to share this episode with you Today.
We interviewed Ahmed.
He's this amazing guy who has been involved in multi-billion dollar projects for a long time.
He, he ran Microsoft's campus for quite some time, but the conversation really took an interesting turn because he.

(00:22):
Got his PhD and he had, for his thesis work, he was looking at how, uh, employees performance is measured.
And I think this really weaves its way into our conversation.
We start to really focus on people and you can just see that a super networker like this and how he manages to connect people's careers with managing these billion dollar projects.

(00:46):
And, and, and it's a really fascinating conversation.
So I hope you enjoy, thanks so much for being a listener. 11 00:00:53,866.333333333 --> 00:01:06,316.333333333 Achmed is a senior PMO and project controls leader with over a decade of experience delivering large scale capital projects across healthcare, life sciences, and technology sectors. 12 00:01:06,616.333333333 --> 00:01:17,716.333333333 He's held director level roles at Turner and Townsend Cummings Group exp, CBRE, and over overseeing multi-billion dollar programs for Fortune 500 clients and LED teams across the us. 13 00:01:18,106.333333333 --> 00:01:24,76.333333333 Uh, recently I believe he's been playing a key role in managing a multi-billion dollar campus program. 14 00:01:24,371.333333333 --> 00:01:35,111.333333333 Leading project controls for life science r and d project in San Diego, and also the PMO for a healthcare construction program totaling nearly a billion dollars in southern California. 15 00:01:35,801.333333333 --> 00:01:44,321.33333333 Achmed brings an international perspective as well, having supported capital project initiatives in, uh, Saudi Arabia, and more specifically Egypt. 16 00:01:44,591.33333333 --> 00:01:45,671.33333333 Earlier in his career. 17 00:01:46,61.33333333 --> 00:01:55,931.33333333 He specializes in establishing governance frameworks, cost management, SOPs, and driving operational efficiencies across all sorts of teams and complicated programs. 18 00:01:56,381.33333333 --> 00:01:59,81.33333333 Achmed, welcome to the podcast. 19 00:02:00,431.33333333 --> 00:02:00,911.33333333 Thank you. 20 00:02:00,971.33333333 --> 00:02:02,111.33333333 I'm excited about it. 21 00:02:02,171.33333333 --> 00:02:02,741.33333333 Thank you. 22 00:02:03,611.33333333 --> 00:02:03,911.33333333 All right. 23 00:02:03,911.33333333 --> 00:02:07,451.33333333 Well, before we get started, I'd love to learn a little bit more about your history. 24 00:02:07,451.33333333 --> 00:02:11,231.33333333 Maybe you could share with us how you got into the major project space. 25 00:02:12,131.33333333 --> 00:02:13,61.33333333 No, definitely. 26 00:02:13,61.33333333 --> 00:02:15,161.33333333 So first, thank you for inviting me. 27 00:02:15,221.33333333 --> 00:02:17,591.33333333 I'm really excited about this podcast. 28 00:02:18,11.33333333 --> 00:02:21,11.33333333 Actually, you covered most of my background already. 29 00:02:21,401.33333333 --> 00:02:25,241.33333333 Uh, but, uh, you know, I can start actually with my education and background. 30 00:02:25,511.33333333 --> 00:02:30,71.33333333 So I graduated and got my bachelor and master degree in structure Engineering. 31 00:02:30,341.33333333 --> 00:02:32,51.33333333 So I used to be a structure engineer. 32 00:02:32,201.33333333 --> 00:02:35,951.33333333 Uh, then I decided to shift to the construction management world. 33 00:02:36,341.33333333 --> 00:02:40,751.33333333 I got my PhD in construction management out of per university in Indiana. 34 00:02:41,151.33333333 --> 00:02:52,446.33333333 Also, like I focused more on the cost part of the business, so I got my RICS certification, uh, also the PMP, you know, so that, that's more on the, you know, academic and the certification side. 35 00:02:53,211.33333333 --> 00:02:56,361.33333333 However, I've been like on the old sides of the table. 36 00:02:56,541.33333333 --> 00:02:59,991.33333333 So I was on the engineering side when I was a structure engineer. 37 00:03:00,261.33333333 --> 00:03:03,861.33333333 Uh, I was on the contractor side, I was on the subcontractor side. 38 00:03:04,191.33333333 --> 00:03:06,771.33333333 I worked for a little bit also on the client side. 39 00:03:06,981.33333333 --> 00:03:13,371.33333333 However, for the past decade, I've been on the owner rep side, which is the consulting for the project management and product controls. 40 00:03:13,841.33333333 --> 00:03:14,501.33333333 I enjoy it. 41 00:03:14,531.33333333 --> 00:03:19,751.33333333 I like it, you know, on this side I advise clients I, you know, act on their behalf. 42 00:03:19,751.33333333 --> 00:03:21,371.33333333 I support their decisions. 43 00:03:21,791.33333333 --> 00:03:24,161.33333333 So I like it, being on this side. 44 00:03:24,911.33333333 --> 00:03:29,51.33333333 I've worked for the top company that you mentioned, you know, in the, in this world. 45 00:03:29,471.33333333 --> 00:03:45,441.33333333 So yeah, and, and to answer your question, how did I, jump into the mega construction, uh, projects? I would say I was a little bit lucky, uh, after my PhD when I received an offer from CBRE to be the cost manager for. 46 00:03:45,836.33333333 --> 00:03:52,256.33333333 Microsoft Portfolio, in Redmond, Washington for the Puget Sound area, all the capital planning projects. 47 00:03:52,646.33333333 --> 00:04:03,226.33333333 Uh, and then like I spent there four, five months where, you know, they were building their large campus in Redmond, Washington. 48 00:04:03,466.33333333 --> 00:04:04,936.33333333 So I got promoted. 49 00:04:04,936.33333333 --> 00:04:09,596.33333333 I was the program controls manager for this campus for four years. 50 00:04:09,936.33333333 --> 00:04:19,446.33333333 For me, it's a very interesting project, very interesting to work with different project management team, different contractors, you know, just being on the program management side. 51 00:04:19,816.33333333 --> 00:04:21,856.33333333 I learned a lot on this, you know, program. 52 00:04:21,856.33333333 --> 00:04:34,806.33333333 I met a lot of, uh, decentralized people to work with, uh, that are still in contact with till now, so, and then, you know, after that I, uh, the product was ramping down, you know, I got another offer to. 53 00:04:35,226.33333333 --> 00:04:45,336.33333333 Lead the project controls for, uh, I would say a top pharmaceutical client in San Diego on the west coast still, but it's in Southern California. 54 00:04:45,576.33333333 --> 00:04:47,286.33333333 So I moved to Southern California. 55 00:04:47,286.33333333 --> 00:04:52,966.33333333 I spent two years there before moving back with, you know, with CBRE again on a healthcare program. 56 00:04:53,296.33333333 --> 00:05:04,126.33333333 And now I'm leading the, uh, driving life science, projects for Turner and thousand on the west coast and supporting other mega construction project across the US as well. 57 00:05:05,746.33333333 --> 00:05:07,936.33333333 That's an impressive background and a wonderful story. 58 00:05:07,936.33333333 --> 00:05:11,386.33333333 I can't wait to get into some of the lessons you have to share with us. 59 00:05:11,496.33333333 --> 00:05:16,746.33333333 Real quick, just curious, what was your PhD thesis on? Oh, okay. 60 00:05:16,836.33333333 --> 00:05:17,286.33333333 Okay. 61 00:05:17,286.33333333 --> 00:05:18,576.33333333 That's an interesting topic. 62 00:05:18,576.33333333 --> 00:05:21,156.33333333 So it was split to two parts. 63 00:05:21,156.33333333 --> 00:05:25,416.33333333 The first one was more related to the CSR corporate social responsibility. 64 00:05:25,756.33333333 --> 00:05:30,946.33333333 And the other part of it would be the performance of, uh, employees. 65 00:05:31,216.33333333 --> 00:05:55,486.33333333 So I was really interested and, you know, on the social responsibility, uh, of, you know, all the corporates, how do they give back to the community and at the same time to their employees, uh, whether from a social perspective or even to enhance their performance and make, you know, their, uh, I would say their, their people happy and enjoy doing their jobs. 66 00:05:56,596.33333333 --> 00:05:56,776.33333333 Wow. 67 00:05:56,776.33333333 --> 00:05:58,966.33333333 You must be a great boss with that background. 68 00:06:00,286.33333333 --> 00:06:00,796.33333333 Thank you. 69 00:06:03,286.33333333 --> 00:06:07,606.33333333 Alright, well let's get into the topic of resource planning first, if you will. 70 00:06:07,636.33333333 --> 00:06:11,416.33333333 'cause I know this scenario you have a lot of passion for, so, yep. 71 00:06:12,16.33333333 --> 00:06:20,686.33333333 I was thinking maybe we could just start with a definition, really 1 0 1, like when I say resource planning, maybe it's not what you're thinking and other people are thinking. 72 00:06:20,686.33333333 --> 00:06:23,716.33333333 So tell, tell me what you think resource planning encompasses. 73 00:06:24,466.33333333 --> 00:06:24,796.33333333 Yeah. 74 00:06:24,796.33333333 --> 00:06:25,576.33333333 No, definitely. 75 00:06:25,576.33333333 --> 00:06:30,856.33333333 And, and actually when, when you just mentioned, you know, to me that the topic, the first topic would be like resource planning. 76 00:06:30,856.33333333 --> 00:06:43,966.33333333 Like, you know, it just, I got so excited because it's about the resources on the product and in our word when we say resources, it's us, the people, right? We are the number one resource for the product. 77 00:06:44,356.33333333 --> 00:06:49,396.33333333 Uh, we run the project, we manage the project, we make sure, you know, everything is going well. 78 00:06:49,666.33333333 --> 00:06:56,566.33333333 So if you're not planning your resources, you know, correctly, then the project would go south. 79 00:06:56,896.33333333 --> 00:07:13,271.33333333 So just definition for resource planning, from my point of view, for an, our word is more on the people resources, like the team that would be on this, managing this product and planning would be like, okay. 80 00:07:14,371.33333333 --> 00:07:26,821.33333333 How many people do we want? What's the structure? When are we going to onboard them? When are we going to offboard them? How are we going to find them? So planning our resources, you know, from all aspects. 81 00:07:27,811.33333333 --> 00:07:29,701.33333333 So let's dive into the resource plan. 82 00:07:29,701.33333333 --> 00:07:33,541.33333333 And I guess this is an interesting point with, without the right people, your project fails. 83 00:07:33,541.33333333 --> 00:07:42,281.33333333 You could have the best plan all the right permits, everything's sort of in place, but if you don't get the right people on board, it sort of all falls apart. 84 00:07:42,341.33333333 --> 00:07:44,981.33333333 And so it's this critical piece. 85 00:07:45,351.33333333 --> 00:07:47,781.33333333 And you're saying resource plan is where you start. 86 00:07:47,781.33333333 --> 00:07:54,576.33333333 How would you build a resource plan for a large, you know, multi-billion dollar project? Where do you start with that? Yes. 87 00:07:54,576.33333333 --> 00:07:58,446.33333333 And, and as you know, you know, the market is moving fast, projects are bigger. 88 00:07:58,446.33333333 --> 00:08:02,286.33333333 Talent pool is really tight, right? Uh, there's a lot of challenges. 89 00:08:02,506.33333333 --> 00:08:15,736.33333333 But before diving into these challenges, let me just maybe walk you a step by step how I think about building, you know, a resource plan for a project and how we work it out with the clients, right? Uh, and, and there's no one way to do it. 90 00:08:16,26.33333333 --> 00:08:22,686.33333333 But there are steps that we should follow to d determine, you know, for each project or each program, what's the route we wanna take. 91 00:08:23,326.33333333 --> 00:08:46,636.33333333 And, and this would be like, okay, are we going to, from a client perspective for sure, are we going to do it internally? Are we going to outsource, you know, a team of experts to do it? Are we going to go for professional services or managed services? What's the best route for it? And it'll vary based on, the project complexity, the, the type of industry, the internal culture of the client. 92 00:08:46,636.33333333 --> 00:08:55,606.33333333 So there are many things, you know, uh, that, could make you make different decisions, uh, based on the factors or based on the givens you have. 93 00:08:55,936.33333333 --> 00:09:15,136.33333333 So as a step by step, the first step I would start with is just identify the project size and complexity, right? So what's the type of project? What's the co the overall budget for this project? How complex is this project? And then we start building the same structure accordingly. 94 00:09:15,376.33333333 --> 00:09:22,66.33333333 So lay out the roles and responsibilities, uh, the scope of work, you know, that needs to be taken care of. 95 00:09:22,366.33333333 --> 00:09:25,531.33333333 Uh, we uh, start creating Gracie Charts. 96 00:09:25,561.33333333 --> 00:09:32,401.33333333 Who's responsible for what, right? And then when do we need the people? So based on this organizational structure. 97 00:09:33,106.33333333 --> 00:09:41,746.33333333 From a client perspective, you would just be looking at it and saying, okay, we have this talent, we have the skillset, but we're missing this. 98 00:09:41,746.33333333 --> 00:10:29,566.33333333 So are we going to hire, you know, a team member going to internally transfer from other projects, or we're going to go and outsource it? And if we're going to outsource it, are we going just to outsource the talents and we manage it as a client or we outsource the entire scope of work? Like for example, oh, the cost management, do we have a good cost lead internally that would manage some cost, like cost resources that we are going to hire or no, we'll just, you know, give the cost management scope to uh, I would say one of the expert companies in it and, and just give them the scope for a fee, right? So all of these things, you know, should be discussed at the beginning of the project, during the planning phase and whenever. 99 00:10:29,626.33333333 --> 00:10:33,706.33333333 A route is decided then steps should be taken after that. 100 00:10:34,246.33333333 --> 00:10:42,826.33333333 So, so that, that's, I would say the first steps before diving into, okay, how are we going to start the, the resource, you know, resourcing for the project. 101 00:10:43,96.33333333 --> 00:10:46,906.33333333 So let me know if you have any question at this stage. 102 00:10:47,476.33333333 --> 00:10:48,286.33333333 I do have a question. 103 00:10:48,316.33333333 --> 00:10:48,616.33333333 Okay. 104 00:10:48,616.33333333 --> 00:10:54,766.33333333 So what I heard is it's like you set the strategy first with the organization, and that could be for a variety of reasons. 105 00:10:55,96.33333333 --> 00:11:00,256.33333333 Insource, outsource, M-S-A-E-P-C, different approaches. 106 00:11:00,316.33333333 --> 00:11:06,786.33333333 Essentially sort of calibrating the risk and the appetite and the model that you're going after. 107 00:11:06,786.33333333 --> 00:11:15,236.33333333 And then once you have that, then it's time to set up roles and responsibilities plan your manpower, set up your timeframe for hiring and things like that. 108 00:11:15,446.33333333 --> 00:11:20,6.33333333 So if I could zoom all the way back to the first one, the strategy quite, I have one question for you on this. 109 00:11:21,116.33333333 --> 00:11:21,506.33333333 You should. 110 00:11:21,746.33333333 --> 00:11:22,76.33333333 Okay. 111 00:11:22,76.33333333 --> 00:11:26,186.33333333 In Amazon, they have this topic, they call it one-way door, two-way door. 112 00:11:26,546.33333333 --> 00:11:32,156.33333333 So they make two-way doors, means you can do something and then you can back out of it fairly easily. 113 00:11:32,426.33333333 --> 00:11:38,756.33333333 So they encourage people, they're like, if it's a two-way door, just make the decision and then we'll just pull back one-way. 114 00:11:38,756.33333333 --> 00:11:43,926.33333333 Doors are things where it's like you go through that door and coming back out that door is actually really tough. 115 00:11:44,316.33333333 --> 00:11:58,176.33333333 So the Strat, going back to your question of like insource versus outsource, let's say, is that a one-way door for projects? Because I have seen situations where it's like, Hey, we're gonna outsource this, and it's like, ah, this contractor's not working. 116 00:11:58,446.33333333 --> 00:12:00,636.33333333 Uh, let's build an internal team and sort this out. 117 00:12:00,936.33333333 --> 00:12:07,326.33333333 Is that sort of like trying to go back through a one-way door? Like talk, talk a little bit about how flexible it is to change that strategy. 118 00:12:07,536.33333333 --> 00:12:08,46.33333333 Yes. 119 00:12:08,46.33333333 --> 00:12:14,256.33333333 So, so it's always flexible at the beginning and it gets harder, you know, as we dive more into the project. 120 00:12:14,326.33333333 --> 00:12:36,26.33333333 And that's why I always advise the clients we need to, you know, just give it a thought, work on it, do our due diligence during the planning phase and before even going to pre-construction phase I would say there are several factors here, right? So the first thing would be as a client, I would ask myself, do I have the talents like to do this job, correctly. 121 00:12:36,26.33333333 --> 00:12:40,436.33333333 Because sometimes we go, okay, you know what, we will just hire, it is cheaper to do it this way. 122 00:12:40,436.33333333 --> 00:12:52,626.33333333 Just instead of paying, you know a company to, because the company will pay the employee, you know, the same salary I would give them and then they would pay for the risk and for managing them and their profit and overhead and everything. 123 00:12:52,686.33333333 --> 00:12:52,746.33333333 Yeah. 124 00:12:53,16.33333333 --> 00:12:57,156.33333333 So is it cheaper to do it internally? I would say maybe, yes. 125 00:12:57,396.33333333 --> 00:13:02,496.33333333 But is it the best way to do it? Most probably it, it really depends, right? It could be, yes. 126 00:13:02,496.33333333 --> 00:13:03,96.33333333 Could be no. 127 00:13:03,516.33333333 --> 00:13:11,616.33333333 I would say the first thing is do we have the talent to do it? Because some companies, they are not truly, I wouldn't say they, they are not into the construction world. 128 00:13:11,646.33333333 --> 00:13:13,856.33333333 They are building labs. 129 00:13:13,916.33333333 --> 00:13:17,246.33333333 They are building, like their main business is life science. 130 00:13:17,276.33333333 --> 00:13:18,986.33333333 Their main business is data centers. 131 00:13:19,16.33333333 --> 00:13:21,236.33333333 They, their main business is not real estate. 132 00:13:21,416.33333333 --> 00:13:35,876.33333333 So definitely their, I would say their internal talents are coming from a different scope of, you know, scope, different area of expertise and not to manage the construction products. 133 00:13:36,236.33333333 --> 00:13:40,261.33333333 So this is where we want to go to the experts and hire them to do, you know, to do the job. 134 00:13:41,801.33333333 --> 00:13:46,961.33333333 Uh, then the other thing would be, okay, let's say we are a life science company. 135 00:13:47,21.33333333 --> 00:13:50,441.33333333 We think we can hire the entire team and run the project. 136 00:13:50,771.33333333 --> 00:13:59,861.33333333 So ask yourself a question, what would happen after this project? Like, you hire a team of like 20 to 30 resources for two or three years. 137 00:14:00,426.33333333 --> 00:14:13,61.33333333 Do you have jobs for them after this project is completed? Will they, you know, be transferred to another project in the same location? Will you relocate them? Will you fire them? Right? Because that would be the first question. 138 00:14:13,61.33333333 --> 00:14:20,141.33333333 And we will, we will DD uh, dive we will dive deeply into the, into the challenges while resourcing. 139 00:14:20,141.33333333 --> 00:14:36,411.33333333 But one of the first questions would be, okay, what's my career plan after this project? If I accepted an offer with your company? Do you have something for me after the job? So for these companies that are just building one project or two project and their main business is not construction. 140 00:14:36,981.33333333 --> 00:14:45,981.33333333 They would have to deal with the, all the hr, you know, things of hiring and firing and severance, you know, and relocating and all these things. 141 00:14:46,281.33333333 --> 00:14:52,341.33333333 Do you wanna focus on this or focus on building your project and just hire an expert to do it for you. 142 00:14:52,521.33333333 --> 00:15:01,11.33333333 And they have all the opportunities that they can just move their resources and employees between project within the same location, you know, in different industries. 143 00:15:01,371.33333333 --> 00:15:11,311.33333333 So that would be one of the things that would make, okay, now we go and hire an expert the MPC company, and then when the contract is done, then we don't have to worry about anything. 144 00:15:11,311.33333333 --> 00:15:13,201.33333333 We just go and use our buildings. 145 00:15:13,201.33333333 --> 00:15:13,561.33333333 Right. 146 00:15:14,461.33333333 --> 00:15:16,321.33333333 Uh, if that answers your question. 147 00:15:17,161.33333333 --> 00:15:18,241.33333333 Yeah, that's a great point. 148 00:15:18,241.33333333 --> 00:15:27,21.33333333 And particularly you mentioned the career path, but it's also sort of critical for the project because if you know your company's gonna lay you off and you're in execute. 149 00:15:27,436.33333333 --> 00:15:31,636.33333333 You're, they're, you're highly likely to probably take the next opportunity that's available to you. 150 00:15:31,636.33333333 --> 00:15:38,56.33333333 So there's probably attrition that happens for companies that pick that path, that really don't have a place for someone to go. 151 00:15:38,356.33333333 --> 00:15:38,806.33333333 Yes. 152 00:15:38,806.33333333 --> 00:15:46,746.33333333 And actually it happens a lot, during the last phase of the project, which is the most important phase, to turn over the building and close it out. 153 00:15:47,106.33333333 --> 00:15:59,826.33333333 People start feeling, you know, worried about their job insecurity and try looking for jobs because they know they don't know what's coming and when they get the, the best opportunity they leave and then no one to close out the project and turn the building over. 154 00:15:59,876.33333333 --> 00:16:00,56.33333333 Yeah. 155 00:16:00,86.33333333 --> 00:16:13,446.33333333 So I would be worried if the client doesn't have enough portfolio for the team to, you know, move between different projects, then definitely they should hire, you know a specialized company to do the work for them. 156 00:16:13,711.33333333 --> 00:16:19,266.33333333 And, and, and the typical way to do it is really like have some internal high level director employee. 157 00:16:20,61.33333333 --> 00:16:31,581.33333333 That are responsible for managing the entire portfolio, but then hire the expert team, you know, or outsource the expert team to be reporting to this director that's managing the portfolio. 158 00:16:32,271.33333333 --> 00:16:33,471.33333333 That makes a lot of sense. 159 00:16:33,651.33333333 --> 00:16:37,461.33333333 Well, okay, so one more question or more questions on resource planning real quick. 160 00:16:37,971.33333333 --> 00:16:38,211.33333333 Sure. 161 00:16:38,661.33333333 --> 00:16:39,171.33333333 Okay. 162 00:16:39,231.33333333 --> 00:16:41,751.3333333 I'm building a, a, I'm building a giant bridge. 163 00:16:41,971.3333333 --> 00:16:46,321.3333333 We've been talking about resource planning and it's been a little bias towards like maybe the owner's team. 164 00:16:46,601.3333333 --> 00:16:52,791.3333333 But let's say we're gonna have 500 people on site, we gotta plan out there, accommodations, all this stuff. 165 00:16:53,31.3333333 --> 00:16:55,161.3333333 How much of resource planning. 166 00:16:55,671.3333333 --> 00:17:06,771.3333333 There's sort of, is there like two worlds? You have sort of the job site execute re is that included in resource planning and that goes in your manpower? So, or do you leave that to the contractors? So yes and no. 167 00:17:06,771.3333333 --> 00:17:09,771.3333333 Like it's included, but it's not the responsibility of the owner. 168 00:17:09,861.3333333 --> 00:17:19,731.3333333 I would say resource planning or manpower planning of the site would be the responsibility of the gc, the general contractor, right? Because you have a resource plan for your team. 169 00:17:19,731.3333333 --> 00:17:23,901.3333333 The general contractor would have a resource plan for their team and their subcontractors on site. 170 00:17:24,471.3333333 --> 00:17:27,111.3333333 Uh, so there's a lot of logistics planning behind it. 171 00:17:27,141.3333333 --> 00:17:35,451.3333333 A lot of, you know, resources there's always a product execution plan that needs to be reviewed on the owner's side before going into construction. 172 00:17:35,841.3333333 --> 00:17:44,961.3333333 It'll definitely include the manpower planning, the logistics planning, the safety planning for everyone on site during the project cycle now. 173 00:17:44,961.3333333 --> 00:17:47,241.3333333 So it's hard to find talent these days. 174 00:17:47,241.3333333 --> 00:17:49,941.3333333 Like how much do owners need to care about. 175 00:17:50,316.3333333 --> 00:17:52,416.3333333 The resource plan of their contract. 176 00:17:52,416.3333333 --> 00:17:54,516.3333333 So it's one thing to say, okay, you guys got it. 177 00:17:54,516.3333333 --> 00:17:56,736.3333333 Go find 4,000 people for this job. 178 00:17:57,96.3333333 --> 00:18:11,926.3333333 But like, is the resource planning group, like looking over their shoulder, helping them kind of cross checking their resource plan? Like how much does that scope, how do you manage them? How you manage someone's resource plan? Exactly. 179 00:18:11,926.3333333 --> 00:18:15,766.3333333 And, and that's the challenge, right? Like, that's why I'm telling you this is one of the hottest topics. 180 00:18:15,766.3333333 --> 00:18:21,666.3333333 Go to any project management, project controls company and tell them what's your number one challenge. 181 00:18:21,936.3333333 --> 00:18:24,726.3333333 They will tell you finding resources, finding the right talent. 182 00:18:25,206.3333333 --> 00:18:40,536.3333333 So just ask this question like, can I find the people who have done similar project before? Because if I'm building a data center, if I'm building, you know, uh, labs and offices, like I want someone with an experience who has built it before, right? Yeah. 183 00:18:40,596.3333333 --> 00:18:45,81.3333333 So the first question would be, do I have someone who have done similar projects before or. 184 00:18:46,116.3333333 --> 00:18:53,946.3333333 Then, okay, if I do, could the client afford them? Because okay, I have them, but they're very expensive because it's a niche market. 185 00:18:54,6.3333333 --> 00:18:58,26.3333333 Do I have, would the client pay for their rate sometimes? Oh, no, no. 186 00:18:58,26.3333333 --> 00:18:59,226.3333333 That's very expensive. 187 00:18:59,256.3333333 --> 00:19:01,416.3333333 Okay, let's find another option. 188 00:19:01,446.3333333 --> 00:19:06,66.3333333 Yeah, but the other option doesn't have the same experience, so they would need training. 189 00:19:06,66.3333333 --> 00:19:07,476.3333333 It's a risk to the project. 190 00:19:07,806.3333333 --> 00:19:16,626.3333333 So sometime the client, you know, how they look into their resources makes all the difference to the project. 191 00:19:17,196.3333333 --> 00:19:24,336.3333333 I worked with clients that was, okay, if I find the best resource and this is their salary, I am paying for it. 192 00:19:24,426.3333333 --> 00:19:29,166.3333333 That's an investment in the project to make sure, you know, I'm avoiding risk, I'm mitigating the risks. 193 00:19:29,446.3333333 --> 00:19:31,876.3333333 I'm finishing on time within the budget. 194 00:19:32,206.3333333 --> 00:19:38,596.3333333 So we are investing in the resources if this is their cost, other clients think, no, that's expensive. 195 00:19:38,836.3333333 --> 00:19:42,796.3333333 Just find me someone who can do the job, and we accept the risk. 196 00:19:43,636.3333333 --> 00:19:46,201.3333333 Which is, I, I don't totally agree with this approach. 197 00:19:46,201.3333333 --> 00:19:50,941.3333333 I'm more of, if you find the right resource, if this is their compensation, go for it. 198 00:19:50,941.3333333 --> 00:19:52,231.3333333 You will definitely save money. 199 00:19:52,231.3333333 --> 00:19:53,551.3333333 You'll definitely save time. 200 00:19:53,551.3333333 --> 00:19:56,501.3333333 And you know, it, it is the best approach to do it. 201 00:19:56,971.3333333 --> 00:19:58,501.3333333 So that, that would be the first thing. 202 00:19:58,921.3333333 --> 00:20:08,181.3333333 And then that, okay, if I find the best, the, the, the best talent, you know, for this job has similar experience, the client is willing to, to, to pay for them. 203 00:20:08,691.3333333 --> 00:20:13,881.3333333 The other question, are they located in the same project location? Are they local? Oh, yeah. 204 00:20:14,271.3333333 --> 00:20:14,631.3333333 Okay. 205 00:20:14,631.3333333 --> 00:20:17,601.3333333 Now they are in Texas and we're doing a project in California. 206 00:20:18,216.3333333 --> 00:20:20,886.3333333 Are they willing to relocate? Okay. 207 00:20:20,886.3333333 --> 00:20:32,566.3333333 If, if not, is the client willing to you know, accept remote work or they want someone on site? And here where it comes tricky because for me it really depends on what are you doing. 208 00:20:32,566.3333333 --> 00:20:37,96.3333333 If you're a construction manager, you shouldn't be doing it remotely, right? Like you're on site day to day. 209 00:20:37,306.3333333 --> 00:20:37,516.3333333 Yeah. 210 00:20:37,786.3333333 --> 00:21:02,386.3333333 But if you are doing cost management, scheduling, you can manage it remotely, you know, going, we, we learned a lot during the COVID time, right? We, we were able to do a lot of jobs remotely using, you know, teams and, and Zoom and, you know, just going, uh, through online calls and, and managing, and then you can travel to the, to the site every now and then just to meet with the team and, and do workshops and stuff, stuff like that. 211 00:21:02,636.3333333 --> 00:21:06,716.3333333 So it, it would really depend on the client culture and their flexibility on that. 212 00:21:07,436.3333333 --> 00:21:14,726.3333333 And I, I'm a fan of, you know, if the person can do the job regardless where they are doing it, just. 213 00:21:15,306.3333333 --> 00:21:18,96.3333333 I would evaluate them by deliverables. 214 00:21:18,411.3333333 --> 00:21:34,776.3333333 I, I wouldn't just dictate my terms, how to do the job, and then if they fail, you know, I just go and add, oh, how, why did you fail? Although I'm the one dictating the terms, right? So my role is to make sure I set clear expectation. 215 00:21:35,46.3333333 --> 00:21:36,186.3333333 We have deliverables. 216 00:21:36,396.3333333 --> 00:21:38,856.3333333 If you can do it from anywhere, then good. 217 00:21:38,976.3333333 --> 00:21:40,716.3333333 If you can, then there's a problem. 218 00:21:40,746.3333333 --> 00:21:44,406.3333333 Right? So that makes a lot of sense. 219 00:21:44,436.3333333 --> 00:21:49,986.3333333 I mean, what I, what I'm hearing is you look for people that have been, that, that know the scope that have done it before. 220 00:21:50,746.3333333 --> 00:21:58,246.3333333 Then you work out affordability, uh, then you work out location and relo slash onsite. 221 00:21:58,246.3333333 --> 00:21:59,326.3333333 Offsite needs. 222 00:21:59,806.3333333 --> 00:21:59,926.3333333 Yeah. 223 00:21:59,926.3333333 --> 00:22:01,546.3333333 And then set expectations. 224 00:22:01,591.3333333 --> 00:22:01,651.3333333 Yeah. 225 00:22:01,951.3333333 --> 00:22:18,546.3333333 And, and, and, and, you know, before all of this, you know, just, I don't wanna forget the number one challenge now in the US maybe because I worked in international market, so it's not the same, uh, in another places, but I would say like, do you have a Visa authorization to work in the us? Right? Right. 226 00:22:19,326.3333333 --> 00:22:40,21.3333333 So front end of that, so now it's really challenging because all the new policies for the H one visa, uh, H one B, visa, you know, all the the, the fee that was added because, okay, if I'm going to, hire this person, if I, if the company is willing to pay the new application fee that's around, I think 100 k now. 227 00:22:40,136.3333333 --> 00:22:49,541.3333333 How long would it take even to process it, right? If I, if I want someone immediately, will I be able to hire them? The answer is definitely no. 228 00:22:49,541.3333333 --> 00:22:51,836.3333333 The process takes months, right? Yeah. 229 00:22:51,841.3333333 --> 00:23:03,451.3333333 So, so having someone that checks all the boxes, you know has visa authorization already local in the location or waiting to relocate, have similar experience. 230 00:23:03,961.3333333 --> 00:23:14,971.3333333 Then the, the, the last thing, okay, if someone checks all the boxes, then we need to pay for this salary, right? So, so that's why the market is very challenging in this, uh, you know, in this part. 231 00:23:14,971.3333333 --> 00:23:17,131.3333333 And then the competition is really high. 232 00:23:17,281.3333333 --> 00:23:18,841.3333333 You can go through all of this. 233 00:23:18,961.3333333 --> 00:23:27,371.3333333 So send the offer, the client is okay, and then last minute you get a call from the candidate and tell you, oh, I got a better offer and I'm going for it, yeah. 234 00:23:28,391.3333333 --> 00:23:38,61.3333333 Getting, getting just back to one important thing, you know, which is AI and how AI is doing in, in our current world and the future of it. 235 00:23:38,61.3333333 --> 00:23:38,451.3333333 Right. 236 00:23:39,111.3333333 --> 00:23:46,251.3333333 So AI is already here, as you know, right? It's being used for reporting and analysis and communication. 237 00:23:46,731.3333333 --> 00:23:47,901.3333333 It's already being used. 238 00:23:47,901.3333333 --> 00:23:49,651.3333333 Like there's a lot of companies that are. 239 00:23:50,496.3333333 --> 00:24:01,106.3333333 Using AI tools to I would say analyze their dashboards and reports and come with a summary and recommendation, right? It's used in communication. 240 00:24:01,106.3333333 --> 00:24:27,621.3333333 I would say when you are developing some email communication proposals, you can use co-pilot chat, pt, Google Gemini, you know, so in different, I'm mainly interested in our construction real estate word, but I would say in other, areas, they are using the same tools and other tools, you know, that develop pictures and proposals and, analysis and so it's currently used this way. 241 00:24:28,81.3333333 --> 00:24:34,791.3333333 I would say, it's not really, like the AI tool is not really a replacement, uh, for judgment. 242 00:24:34,941.3333333 --> 00:24:37,491.3333333 You should always make sense of what you're seeing. 243 00:24:37,761.3333333 --> 00:24:39,981.3333333 You shouldn't rely on it a hundred percent. 244 00:24:40,491.3333333 --> 00:24:48,201.3333333 It's still being matured, right? So there's still, I would say there's still a lot of room of growth within our area. 245 00:24:48,201.3333333 --> 00:24:50,751.3333333 Like there should be AI estimating tools. 246 00:24:50,751.3333333 --> 00:25:03,351.3333333 So if I wanna estimate a project, estimate the cost of a project for a data center, I would go to an AI tool, tell them that this is the way I want it structure, and I get, I rely on the estimate. 247 00:25:03,351.3333333 --> 00:25:05,331.3333333 It's not there yet, but it's coming. 248 00:25:05,391.3333333 --> 00:25:16,631.3333333 Definitely same for baseline schedules, right? So in our controls word and project management word, I believe there is the AI is, is developing and growing so fast. 249 00:25:17,111.3333333 --> 00:25:20,706.3333333 Uh, but it's not a replacement for the resources. 250 00:25:21,576.3333333 --> 00:25:24,16.3333333 We should more use it a as a tool. 251 00:25:24,841.3333333 --> 00:25:31,291.3333333 To help us, you know manage more projects, uh, with, you know, the resources challenge that we have today. 252 00:25:32,671.3333333 --> 00:25:34,321.3333333 Yeah, I think that's really good advice. 253 00:25:34,321.3333333 --> 00:25:46,351.3333333 It's, uh, so many people look at AI as a headcount replacement tool, but I really think it's probably just a massive productivity tool, which is why I've always been confused about layoffs related to ai. 254 00:25:46,351.3333333 --> 00:26:04,156.3333333 It's like, if all your employees are 500% more productive because of ai, why would you fire them? That's like the worst time you just, yeah, and, and actually, like, it's it doesn't happen with everyone, right? It happens with specific companies. 255 00:26:04,156.3333333 --> 00:26:14,176.3333333 That, and okay, that would be my advice, right? Because you should always learn and be on the latest tools and methodologies. 256 00:26:14,326.3333333 --> 00:26:19,456.3333333 So if you are an expert in a specific software that is now outdated. 257 00:26:19,801.3333333 --> 00:26:22,501.3333333 Then yes, you're going to get replaced, right? Right. 258 00:26:22,501.3333333 --> 00:26:34,171.3333333 But if you are learning the latest technology and moving forward with what's currently there, then you know, you'll be actually, you know, you'll be hot on the market and everyone will be looking for you. 259 00:26:34,381.3333333 --> 00:26:38,101.3333333 So that's why I always keep learning, stay on the current tools and methods. 260 00:26:38,671.3333333 --> 00:26:40,861.3333333 AI is, you know, the future. 261 00:26:40,861.3333333 --> 00:26:46,501.3333333 So definitely learn AI tools, keep using them, and then you don't have to worry about anything. 262 00:26:46,501.3333333 --> 00:26:47,656.3333333 Right? Yeah. 263 00:26:48,781.3333333 --> 00:26:49,141.3333333 Yeah. 264 00:26:49,141.3333333 --> 00:26:58,531.3333333 I mean, I think WW why would you imagine if we, we run the clock for it a little bit with ai, is it you know, just these conversations you can have so quickly where you could be like. 265 00:26:59,11.3333333 --> 00:27:03,71.3333333 Hey, I'm I think the cranes are gonna be late by two weeks. 266 00:27:03,291.3333333 --> 00:27:07,701.3333333 How does this affect critical path? And it's just like, here you go. 267 00:27:07,701.3333333 --> 00:27:17,361.3333333 But did you think about the fact that your contractor can't get the, you know, need, there's this other person needs a crane or something's, you know, the site's gonna be different now you can't. 268 00:27:17,421.3333333 --> 00:27:18,346.3333333 Just all of that stuff. 269 00:27:18,746.3333333 --> 00:27:18,786.3333333 Yeah. 270 00:27:18,786.3333333 --> 00:27:24,831.3333333 And, and that, and that's why I'm saying there is always a human factor, right? Especially in our management world. 271 00:27:25,11.3333333 --> 00:27:26,241.3333333 You get information. 272 00:27:26,811.3333333 --> 00:27:30,861.3333333 Number one is I need to validate this information, whether it's coming from a person or from ai. 273 00:27:30,861.3333333 --> 00:27:32,271.3333333 I need to validate the information. 274 00:27:32,271.3333333 --> 00:27:32,541.3333333 Right. 275 00:27:32,541.3333333 --> 00:27:35,691.3333333 I don't rely on one source to get my information. 276 00:27:36,21.3333333 --> 00:27:36,201.3333333 Yeah. 277 00:27:36,201.3333333 --> 00:27:39,981.3333333 So you get the information, you make sense of it, validated. 278 00:27:40,556.3333333 --> 00:27:47,181.3333333 Then you discuss it with other parties, so I would be, okay, AI will come to me and say, oh, I discussed with the project manager. 279 00:27:47,181.3333333 --> 00:27:49,341.3333333 That was the response, that was the cost manager response. 280 00:27:49,341.3333333 --> 00:27:50,31.3333333 Okay, that's good. 281 00:27:50,31.3333333 --> 00:27:51,81.3333333 You know, they're helping me. 282 00:27:51,381.3333333 --> 00:28:00,561.3333333 But you would definitely need to discuss it, have it at a team meeting, and then come with a conclusion that someone would need to execute. 283 00:28:00,661.3333333 --> 00:28:01,21.3333333 Yeah. 284 00:28:01,441.3333333 --> 00:28:04,771.3333333 Which AI can document it for me, but someone would need to exclude it. 285 00:28:06,241.3333333 --> 00:28:13,461.3333333 What's the most impressive thing you've seen with AI applied to project controls so far, if anything? Not yet. 286 00:28:13,461.3333333 --> 00:28:14,931.3333333 I would say, yeah. 287 00:28:14,931.3333333 --> 00:28:20,16.3333333 Uh, yeah, for, for me, Chad GPT is definitely a, a game changer, right? Mm-hmm. 288 00:28:20,121.3333333 --> 00:28:25,101.3333333 It's not a hundred percent reliable, but it does what I, you know, what I need. 289 00:28:25,101.3333333 --> 00:28:29,931.3333333 So for now, yeah, we haven't seen the killer app yet. 290 00:28:29,991.3333333 --> 00:28:30,891.3333333 I think it's coming. 291 00:28:30,921.3333333 --> 00:28:32,121.3333333 There's a lot of people working on it. 292 00:28:32,151.3333333 --> 00:28:35,391.3333333 Well, so what are your, you know, the market is brutal right now. 293 00:28:35,451.3333333 --> 00:28:44,421.3333333 What are your sort of tricks or tips that you would have that you're employing or you would give people for sourcing candidates? For all this specialized work. 294 00:28:44,931.3333333 --> 00:28:45,411.3333333 Okay. 295 00:28:45,411.3333333 --> 00:28:52,761.3333333 So myself, I'm very well connected, I would say, in the networking platform, whether online or even offline. 296 00:28:52,761.3333333 --> 00:28:53,841.3333333 Going to conferences. 297 00:28:54,411.3333333 --> 00:29:18,291.3333333 I keep a tight network, you know, with all the talents in my industry, I keep even if I don't, don't have a current role, I try to interview people like two, three in candidates a day, right? Because when the opportunity comes, I have my list that I would be reaching out to and tell them, oh, I think this opportunity fits, your qualification. 298 00:29:18,291.3333333 --> 00:29:21,51.3333333 Go apply for it, and then we can take it from there. 299 00:29:21,321.3333333 --> 00:29:38,261.3333333 So I go, you know, to a lot of people and ask them, okay, what are you interested in? What's your experience? What's your salary range? What's your current preference with location? So I have my own database, you know, that okay, I need someone in Boston, I need someone in at Maryland. 300 00:29:38,261.3333333 --> 00:29:41,741.3333333 I need someone in California, uh, with this qualification. 301 00:29:41,741.3333333 --> 00:29:43,771.3333333 So I have, you know in my back pocket. 302 00:29:43,771.3333333 --> 00:29:46,681.3333333 I would say, yeah, some resources that I would reach out to. 303 00:29:46,921.3333333 --> 00:29:57,316.3333333 So definitely I, I'm not saying everyone should be doing this, but hr, and, and talent acquisition team definitely should always be doing this. 304 00:29:58,406.3333333 --> 00:30:02,336.3333333 Well, so it sounds like you're pretty familiar with doing interviews. 305 00:30:02,396.3333333 --> 00:30:17,486.3333333 Let's talk about like what red flags do you look for in interviews? Like what separates someone who can talk the, talk from someone who can actually run controls on say, a billion dollar project? Yeah, and there are really like two parts of it. 306 00:30:17,486.3333333 --> 00:30:25,246.3333333 So the good thing, like what I like to do is, first speaking about the HR perspective, which I get it, if, if they all, if they fit. 307 00:30:25,636.3333333 --> 00:30:38,716.3333333 You know, the project or not, right? Do they have the, uh, the qualification? Do they have the, is their salary range within our budget? You know, are they local? So I ask first all the HR questions. 308 00:30:38,896.3333333 --> 00:30:42,316.3333333 Sometimes I even, you know, deep dive into some personal questions. 309 00:30:42,316.3333333 --> 00:30:48,736.3333333 Like, okay, if you're going to relocate, what would be your family response? Because sometimes, oh, I'm wanting to relocate. 310 00:30:48,736.3333333 --> 00:30:51,196.3333333 And then the family, oh no, we don't wanna relocate. 311 00:30:51,196.3333333 --> 00:30:51,616.3333333 Right? Yeah. 312 00:30:51,766.3333333 --> 00:30:59,706.3333333 So I do this part of, you know, the HR and the personal part as well at first, and then we move to the technical part. 313 00:31:00,246.3333333 --> 00:31:04,426.3333333 So from a technical part, it, it, it really depends on the role. 314 00:31:04,426.3333333 --> 00:31:07,276.3333333 If it's within my expertise, I would say special. 315 00:31:07,276.3333333 --> 00:31:13,846.3333333 Like if it's cost or scheduling, or PMOI start, you know, by deep diving into. 316 00:31:14,516.3333333 --> 00:31:15,596.3333333 Technical questions. 317 00:31:15,626.3333333 --> 00:31:15,986.3333333 Okay. 318 00:31:15,986.3333333 --> 00:31:22,56.3333333 Tell me how would you do it? Uh, if you have the size of project, how would you start? You know, the same questions you're asking me. 319 00:31:22,266.3333333 --> 00:31:22,656.3333333 Right. 320 00:31:22,656.3333333 --> 00:31:31,776.3333333 But because I've done it, because I've, I I, I've been, like let's say for the PMO team that I was leading, I wasn't, you know, just the lead for the team. 321 00:31:32,196.3333333 --> 00:31:43,326.3333333 I was deep diving in every function and building with the resource, the templates, you know, the process, uh, the reports, working with the project management team on it. 322 00:31:43,326.3333333 --> 00:31:44,676.3333333 So I know the challenges. 323 00:31:45,96.3333333 --> 00:31:51,126.3333333 And then start asking the questions and see what would be the answer if you come up with similar challenges or not. 324 00:31:51,366.3333333 --> 00:31:58,901.3333333 So you can easily if you worked on it, you can easily identify if this person has done it before or just, you know, have general knowledge about the topic. 325 00:31:59,301.3333333 --> 00:32:03,441.3333333 And then like typically, you know, we would have a, another technical interview. 326 00:32:03,441.3333333 --> 00:32:14,361.3333333 So, uh, you wouldn't only have one interview, typically, you would have, you know, just go through a multiple interview stages, uh, before moving forward. 327 00:32:15,691.3333333 --> 00:32:15,991.3333333 Okay. 328 00:32:15,991.3333333 --> 00:32:24,421.3333333 And let me ask you, because that, that makes a lot of sense on how to get the hard skills and then you and sort of kind of get down to brass tacks. 329 00:32:24,931.3333333 --> 00:32:28,531.3333333 I have one question about personality for you. 330 00:32:29,81.3333333 --> 00:32:32,471.3333333 Something I've noticed over this podcast, it's been kind of interesting. 331 00:32:32,471.3333333 --> 00:32:35,171.3333333 I was thinking about commonalities among all of the people. 332 00:32:35,171.3333333 --> 00:32:41,471.3333333 And one of them that I've noticed is that project controls professionals aren't complainers. 333 00:32:42,206.3333333 --> 00:32:47,426.3333333 Like I was thinking about all my episodes, I've never had anyone complain to me about problems. 334 00:32:47,666.3333333 --> 00:32:49,706.3333333 And I started to think I'm interviewing all these leaders. 335 00:32:49,706.3333333 --> 00:32:56,6.3333333 Maybe complaining is sort of a really deadly thing when you're working in the project control space. 336 00:32:56,6.3333333 --> 00:33:00,146.3333333 I know, it's kind of, for me, it's like if you start complaining, it's really problematic. 337 00:33:00,146.3333333 --> 00:33:02,366.3333333 It kind of means you've lost the plot. 338 00:33:02,736.3333333 --> 00:33:11,951.3333333 And so I'm wondering are there like soft skills that you look for kind of like that maybe, or others that, that you flag or that are green flags? Yeah. 339 00:33:11,951.3333333 --> 00:33:13,31.3333333 And, and, and yeah. 340 00:33:13,51.3333333 --> 00:33:15,826.3333333 And definitely let, let's, let's be transparent here. 341 00:33:15,856.3333333 --> 00:33:19,576.3333333 You can't identify all of these things during just 30 minutes interview, right. 342 00:33:19,576.3333333 --> 00:33:20,956.3333333 You try as best as you can. 343 00:33:20,956.3333333 --> 00:33:21,16.3333333 Yeah. 344 00:33:21,286.3333333 --> 00:33:25,306.3333333 But things will come up, you know, whenever, uh, you start. 345 00:33:25,636.3333333 --> 00:33:30,706.3333333 But I would say this would be more on the leadership level because it's how you set up your team. 346 00:33:30,706.3333333 --> 00:33:33,196.3333333 Like I always try to set up the positive culture. 347 00:33:33,886.3333333 --> 00:33:38,146.3333333 So are we going to be working together on that or. 348 00:33:38,551.3333333 --> 00:33:45,151.3333333 Uh, it just, everyone is trying to point fingers, oh, who's responsible for doing this? So it really depends on the leader of the team. 349 00:33:45,181.3333333 --> 00:33:57,631.3333333 You know, you wanna set a positive culture, we're all here to help each other and identify, oh, if there's a problem, yeah, let's, let's red flag it, let's work on it and see what's the best way to, you know, to approach it. 350 00:33:58,201.3333333 --> 00:34:15,331.3333333 But if you're just complaining because someone is doing something, but you, you don't come up with an, you know, with a solution, then that's a, I would say that's a red flag that we need to, you know, highlight that this is not a positive approach, uh, not a past a positive characteristic and start working on it. 351 00:34:16,981.3333333 --> 00:34:17,461.3333333 Got it. 352 00:34:17,671.3333333 --> 00:34:17,971.3333333 Okay. 353 00:34:17,971.3333333 --> 00:34:21,511.3333333 Can I dive into one more thing? It's sort of like tossing up. 354 00:34:21,511.3333333 --> 00:34:25,651.3333333 Do we talk about manpower plan? Do we talk about rasi? Let's do rasi. 355 00:34:25,651.3333333 --> 00:34:31,61.3333333 So, RACI, responsibilities responsible, accountable, consulted, informed. 356 00:34:31,61.3333333 --> 00:34:33,11.3333333 If I'm not correct, uh, maybe yes. 357 00:34:33,11.3333333 --> 00:34:36,191.3333333 You can talk about your process for setting up that chart. 358 00:34:36,581.3333333 --> 00:34:37,691.3333333 Or Yeah, definitely. 359 00:34:37,691.3333333 --> 00:34:42,821.3333333 And, and, and actually I believe like our next topic was going to be PMO, which this is a big part of it. 360 00:34:42,821.3333333 --> 00:34:50,971.3333333 So do you wanna go to the PMO topic and, and, you know, yeah, let's, let's do that and maybe just kick it off with a little rassy guide. 361 00:34:50,971.3333333 --> 00:34:51,361.3333333 Yeah. 362 00:34:53,611.3333333 --> 00:34:54,121.3333333 Okay. 363 00:34:54,151.3333333 --> 00:34:54,481.3333333 Okay. 364 00:34:54,481.3333333 --> 00:35:02,701.3333333 So PMO actually is another challenging topic, right? So, and I like working in, in, in the world of challenges, so don't get me wrong. 365 00:35:03,121.3333333 --> 00:35:14,311.3333333 So, so, PMO previously, actually, it was known as an advisory role, right? So just, you know, there's a PMO team that's responsible for reporting and creating templates. 366 00:35:14,821.3333333 --> 00:35:22,381.3333333 Uh, and usually like sometime, like no one is using even this templates or these reports or it's outdated or stuff like that. 367 00:35:22,861.3333333 --> 00:35:30,331.3333333 So I'm not a big fan of this type of PMO structure, which is the advisory one that's not involved in the program or the project. 368 00:35:31,426.3333333 --> 00:35:36,46.3333333 But nowadays, you know, the modern PMO, I would say there are three different types. 369 00:35:36,136.3333333 --> 00:35:40,246.3333333 The first one was the advisory second, it's a supporting structure. 370 00:35:40,486.3333333 --> 00:35:42,496.3333333 Third is the controlling structure. 371 00:35:42,886.3333333 --> 00:35:48,916.3333333 So the supporting structure, you get more involvement within the project and the program. 372 00:35:49,246.3333333 --> 00:35:58,516.3333333 So you have a project management delivery team, and you have a supporting function, which is the PMO that supports the project delivery team. 373 00:35:58,786.3333333 --> 00:36:03,196.3333333 So you have a cost manager, you have a scheduler, you have procurement. 374 00:36:03,556.3333333 --> 00:36:09,676.3333333 All of them are supporting working hand in hand with the product management team on the project. 375 00:36:10,36.3333333 --> 00:36:11,356.3333333 So just an example. 376 00:36:11,356.3333333 --> 00:36:11,596.3333333 Okay. 377 00:36:11,596.3333333 --> 00:36:25,366.3333333 So what would be the, I would say what? What would be the difference in roles and responsibilities between a project manager? And the supporting PMO function, right? So if it's a small project, you don't really need a supporting PMO. 378 00:36:25,546.3333333 --> 00:36:29,836.3333333 So, PMO is usually developed when you have a large program, a complex program. 379 00:36:30,286.3333333 --> 00:36:40,366.3333333 But when it's small program or small project, the project manager is responsible for everything The project manager does the cost management, he reviews invoices, he created cash flow. 380 00:36:40,756.3333333 --> 00:36:57,726.3333333 Uh, he work on the schedule, and review change orders and manage subcontractors and daily activities because it's a small project when the project cope and complexity and, and budget, you know, increase there that we, you need support. 381 00:36:57,726.3333333 --> 00:37:00,276.3333333 So you start bringing expert in every area. 382 00:37:00,546.3333333 --> 00:37:08,586.3333333 So I would say the cost manager will be reviewing all invoices, all change order, cashflow, uh, maintaining the budget. 383 00:37:09,396.3333333 --> 00:37:13,776.3333333 At the same time, the project manager is still liable for this budget. 384 00:37:14,151.3333333 --> 00:37:17,121.3333333 So it's, you can't work in two different silos. 385 00:37:17,361.3333333 --> 00:37:22,821.3333333 So the project management or the delivery team, main responsibility is to manage the project. 386 00:37:22,911.3333333 --> 00:37:31,401.3333333 It's to manage the contractor, manage the subcontractor, daily activities, but at the same time getting help from the cost manager on the PMO team. 387 00:37:32,481.3333333 --> 00:37:34,491.3333333 So this is the supporting function. 388 00:37:34,761.3333333 --> 00:37:43,221.3333333 And here where it comes to RACI charts, right? Because you would wanna draw the line between different responsibilities. 389 00:37:43,281.3333333 --> 00:37:47,481.3333333 Who is responsible, which in this case would be the supporting function. 390 00:37:47,481.3333333 --> 00:38:02,241.3333333 The cost manager who's accountable, which would be the project manager who's consulted, which could be the client, could be the, I would say the PMO director and who's informed, right? So that's the RACI chart. 391 00:38:02,241.3333333 --> 00:38:05,211.3333333 And then you go through all the scope and start. 392 00:38:05,661.3333333 --> 00:38:12,621.3333333 Putting all your, you know, scope team members and identify who's responsible, who's accountable, who's consultant, and who's informed for everything. 393 00:38:13,41.3333333 --> 00:38:17,361.3333333 This way you lay down the, the, the roles and responsibilities for everyone. 394 00:38:17,571.3333333 --> 00:38:22,11.3333333 Everyone understand the role, the liabilities, their accountability, the reporting structure. 395 00:38:22,251.3333333 --> 00:38:26,571.3333333 So there is no confusion in it that this, this answer your question. 396 00:38:26,901.3333333 --> 00:38:27,471.3333333 It does. 397 00:38:27,471.3333333 --> 00:38:27,951.3333333 Thank you. 398 00:38:27,951.3333333 --> 00:38:32,1.3333333 And, and what I heard is there's kind of three different ways to set up A PMO. 399 00:38:32,31.3333333 --> 00:38:38,1.3333333 You can set it up as an advisory function, which might be a little dated or maybe that's the wrong word. 400 00:38:38,271.3333333 --> 00:38:39,741.3333333 There's an advisory function. 401 00:38:39,831.3333333 --> 00:38:40,491.3333333 Uh, yeah. 402 00:38:40,491.3333333 --> 00:38:57,111.3333333 It, it's typically like if you are not surely involved, because I, I will tell you here, what's the problem if I'm a product manager, I'm doing the job and someone that's not involved, doesn't know my challenges, my risks come and tell me this is the way you should be, you know, reporting and doing it, and they are not involved. 403 00:38:57,786.3333333 --> 00:39:00,486.3333333 Most probably it'll fail, right? Because they don't know what I'm doing. 404 00:39:00,516.3333333 --> 00:39:06,546.3333333 They're just think that it's a one way that could be, you know, uh, done across all the projects. 405 00:39:06,736.3333333 --> 00:39:12,676.3333333 So I'm with the supporting function because you are involved, you are helping, you are supporting, you're working together. 406 00:39:12,926.3333333 --> 00:39:18,26.3333333 And you have more, I would say more technical knowledge in your area of expertise. 407 00:39:18,176.3333333 --> 00:39:19,586.3333333 This is how I would think of it. 408 00:39:20,16.3333333 --> 00:39:22,206.3333333 The controlling, which is the third one. 409 00:39:22,716.3333333 --> 00:39:31,676.3333333 It really needs a very experienced team to be doing the, because controlling means the project management team is reporting to the PMO team. 410 00:39:31,886.3333333 --> 00:39:41,96.3333333 The PMO is the one responsible for the entire program, right? So, so the client hired a program management team, tells them I wanna build this portfolio. 411 00:39:41,726.3333333 --> 00:39:48,326.3333333 We will have several project management team, but at the end, the PMO is responsible for delivery. 412 00:39:49,151.3333333 --> 00:39:53,111.3333333 Budget, schedule, risk design, everything. 413 00:39:53,531.3333333 --> 00:40:09,511.3333333 So the leaders of this team should be more experienced, I would say, or have the same experience of the project delivery team so they can lead them and manage them to, you know, to achieve the goal of the customer. 414 00:40:10,531.3333333 --> 00:40:14,611.3333333 Now, I would say most of the time I've seen things in the support model. 415 00:40:14,611.3333333 --> 00:40:14,701.3333333 Yes. 416 00:40:15,1.3333333 --> 00:40:16,891.3333333 This control model is interesting though. 417 00:40:16,921.3333333 --> 00:40:27,561.3333333 I mean, what benefits are there for rolling up everything under A PMO? Is that has there been some successes there? Do organizations like it? Yes. 418 00:40:27,621.3333333 --> 00:40:28,251.3333333 Yes. 419 00:40:28,296.3333333 --> 00:40:31,551.3333333 It, I, I, I've been, you know, in one of these structure where. 420 00:40:32,751.3333333 --> 00:40:37,11.3333333 There was like, without specifying specific project, just for confidentiality reason. 421 00:40:37,11.3333333 --> 00:40:53,886.3333333 But I, I would say that the case, so there was eight project management team, the team that had, like, I would say the director that was leading the, the largest and the most complex project was the project control was promoted to be the project controls director. 422 00:40:54,306.3333333 --> 00:41:12,131.3333333 The project delivery lead was responsible for the, A teams was the PMO director, you know, and then they started laying down the, I would say not only the structure and the responsibilities, but more of the framework of how they want this program built. 423 00:41:12,581.3333333 --> 00:41:15,416.3333333 The advantage for that for the client is they have. 424 00:41:16,46.3333333 --> 00:41:23,96.3333333 Single point of contact, single person, responsible, I would say single team responsible for the success of this project. 425 00:41:23,196.3333333 --> 00:41:26,886.3333333 They don't deal with eight different project management team, eight different contractors. 426 00:41:27,126.3333333 --> 00:41:27,336.3333333 No. 427 00:41:27,336.3333333 --> 00:41:29,526.3333333 It's the responsibility of the PMO team. 428 00:41:30,6.3333333 --> 00:41:30,156.3333333 Yeah. 429 00:41:30,156.3333333 --> 00:41:31,686.3333333 To work it out. 430 00:41:31,776.3333333 --> 00:41:45,906.3333333 So no, definitely if this individual has the experience, worked on the project delivery side, worked on the project control side, worked on the PMO side, and is able to set the framework and drive it, then it's set up for success. 431 00:41:47,226.3333333 --> 00:41:54,306.3333333 So what I'm hearing is that in, in roles like that, it's really sort of advise, support, control is almost, advise is like reporting. 432 00:41:54,456.3333333 --> 00:41:56,916.3333333 It's the town scribe, that's good. 433 00:41:56,916.3333333 --> 00:41:57,726.3333333 It's helpful. 434 00:41:57,966.3333333 --> 00:42:05,946.3333333 And then support is more of a managed service integrated model where you're, actively consulting and working hand in hand. 435 00:42:05,946.3333333 --> 00:42:09,246.3333333 And then control is where you actually create that accountability structure. 436 00:42:09,586.3333333 --> 00:42:18,616.3333333 And that can be really helpful for management 'cause you have one one org that you can go to to really ask for accountability on performance Yes. 437 00:42:18,616.3333333 --> 00:42:19,366.3333333 And status. 438 00:42:19,366.3333333 --> 00:42:19,786.3333333 Yeah. 439 00:42:20,716.3333333 --> 00:42:33,766.3333333 So I would say the hard, the hardest part here, I would say, because for everyone there is the challenges, right? But I would say the top challenge for having a PMO in place is getting everyone's buy-in. 440 00:42:34,96.3333333 --> 00:42:40,306.3333333 There, there are two, I would say two parts or two, uh, buy-ins that you need to get. 441 00:42:40,306.3333333 --> 00:42:45,166.3333333 Like the first buy-in would be the team you're working with, right? The buy-in of the project delivery team. 442 00:42:45,191.3333333 --> 00:42:45,611.3333333 Mm-hmm. 443 00:42:45,766.3333333 --> 00:43:01,616.3333333 I walked at some point, I walked into a team, you know, as a PMO lead that the delivery team didn't even know that there was going to be a PMO team, right? And then I say, okay, so what are we doing? What would be the PMO team doing? Uh, we thought that we are responsible for the entire project. 444 00:43:01,961.3333333 --> 00:43:20,661.3333333 If now we have a PMO team, what would they be doing? So you'll be facing a lot of resistance, right? So I started by explaining our role, uh, explaining that the PMO is here to support like it's not the police of the product, right? So, so I would say that the PMO is a supporting function. 445 00:43:20,811.3333333 --> 00:43:27,51.3333333 We're here to support you, we're here to work with you to streamline the process for you and not surely to take over. 446 00:43:27,661.3333333 --> 00:43:38,491.3333333 So getting the buy-in of the team and explaining to them their roles and responsibilities and making sure everyone understands their role and, you know, the collaborative environment is really important. 447 00:43:38,821.3333333 --> 00:43:46,51.3333333 So that, that would be the first thing, actually, not the first thing, because the other buy-in, if you don't have it, then don't even try. 448 00:43:46,81.3333333 --> 00:43:47,311.3333333 Which is the client buy-in. 449 00:43:47,731.3333333 --> 00:43:48,31.3333333 Yeah. 450 00:43:48,421.3333333 --> 00:43:53,491.3333333 But some projects, if the client is not even convinced of having project controls. 451 00:43:53,881.3333333 --> 00:44:06,211.3333333 Function or a PMO function, then what are you trying to do? Right? So because you are getting resistance from the team and the client is not backing you up, so no one is listening to what you're trying to do, so you're set up for failure. 452 00:44:06,481.3333333 --> 00:44:14,311.3333333 So, so, but getting buy-in of the team and everyone understands what you're trying to do is the, the real challenge for PMO. 453 00:44:16,111.3333333 --> 00:44:22,891.3333333 So you've set up PMOs before, like maybe you can walk me through like your first 90 day plan. 454 00:44:23,251.3333333 --> 00:44:28,391.3333333 What you know, what, what what do you do? When you first get the job to set up a team. 455 00:44:28,391.3333333 --> 00:44:28,841.3333333 Okay. 456 00:44:28,961.3333333 --> 00:44:29,471.3333333 Yes. 457 00:44:29,521.3333333 --> 00:44:34,951.3333333 So it typically takes from six months to a year to mature your PMO strategy. 458 00:44:34,951.3333333 --> 00:44:51,361.3333333 I would say the first 90 days I will start focusing on understanding the client culture, right? The client culture, client structure, uh, authority matrix, the project processes in place, uh, the, the current stages of the project, reviewing the budget, reviewing the schedule. 459 00:44:51,481.3333333 --> 00:44:57,121.3333333 So I pen, I, I spend the first few weeks learning about the project and the client and the team. 460 00:44:58,81.3333333 --> 00:45:01,531.3333333 And then within this period, I start identifying the gaps. 461 00:45:01,591.3333333 --> 00:45:10,521.3333333 Okay, what gaps do I see based on my experience? Where would we need to, you know improve, uh, some of the areas, you know to make it better. 462 00:45:10,911.3333333 --> 00:45:20,121.3333333 Uh, so when we identify the gaps, we start defining the rules, streamlining the processes, and then training the teams to do it. 463 00:45:20,611.3333333 --> 00:45:28,951.3333333 So I would say that that would be the first 90 day just learning, identifying gaps, streamlining the processes, and training the team to do it. 464 00:45:29,131.3333333 --> 00:45:39,451.3333333 And then it'll just be, you know, trial and error for some of the things until from six months to a year you have, uh, I would say a well established PMO structure. 465 00:45:41,11.3333333 --> 00:45:51,151.3333333 And what functions would you typically have under that PMO reporting to you? Like risk is sometimes in, sometimes out, like what are the, what are the cost reporting? Yes. 466 00:45:51,181.3333333 --> 00:45:51,631.3333333 Good point. 467 00:45:52,81.3333333 --> 00:45:52,411.3333333 Yeah. 468 00:45:52,531.3333333 --> 00:45:52,771.3333333 Yeah. 469 00:45:52,861.3333333 --> 00:46:03,121.3333333 So, so my favorite, I would say project controls with all its, you know its function like cost, schedule, risk, procurement. 470 00:46:04,346.3333333 --> 00:46:07,736.3333333 As we mentioned, we have the project control theme and then procurement. 471 00:46:07,736.3333333 --> 00:46:10,346.3333333 So sometimes the clients would say procurement. 472 00:46:10,976.3333333 --> 00:46:13,676.3333333 Finance, these are our internal functions. 473 00:46:13,736.3333333 --> 00:46:16,141.3333333 We're not giving this to the PMO, right? Mm-hmm. 474 00:46:16,226.3333333 --> 00:46:30,326.3333333 And then I always recommend that yes, there should be a client, internal finance and procurement team, but for this project, the procurement and finance PMO function are supporting the internal client teams. 475 00:46:31,106.3333333 --> 00:46:41,6.3333333 So for example, there is a procurement process in place for the client for approvals on certain thresholds, on certain software they're using. 476 00:46:41,516.3333333 --> 00:46:44,456.3333333 The PM also still should still be using it. 477 00:46:44,556.3333333 --> 00:46:48,276.3333333 But who develops the project procurement strategy? Mm-hmm. 478 00:46:48,516.3333333 --> 00:47:08,286.3333333 Who, uh, developed the RFPs for the consultant and the GCs who reviews and, uh, I would say start analyzing and comparing the bids, right? So the procurement team for the, within the PMO function should be dedicated to this project. 479 00:47:08,586.3333333 --> 00:47:09,696.3333333 And then when they. 480 00:47:10,131.3333333 --> 00:47:28,1.3333333 Develop the project procurement strategy, uh, issue the RFP and get approval from the, you know, the client side, compare the bids, they should go and put it, go within the framework of the client, submit according to the process and get all the approvals that's needed. 481 00:47:28,241.3333333 --> 00:47:32,741.3333333 But still, the procurement function within this project is really important. 482 00:47:33,131.3333333 --> 00:47:36,251.3333333 Uh, that, that's, you know, how I see it, it was very efficient. 483 00:47:36,251.3333333 --> 00:47:45,581.3333333 It saved millions of dollars in some of the projects, uh, due to some, you know, cost savings and negotiation and, and getting everyone on board on time. 484 00:47:45,881.3333333 --> 00:47:50,861.3333333 So it's really efficient to have a procurement resource within your PMO structure. 485 00:47:51,911.3333333 --> 00:48:01,931.3333333 Then I would go to finance, right? And again, finance is typical an internal client thing, but finance for this project specifically or this program. 486 00:48:02,261.3333333 --> 00:48:05,41.3333333 So reviewing the invoices, mm-hmm. 487 00:48:05,661.3333333 --> 00:48:17,91.3333333 Just doing all the checks and balances, uh, doing the cash flows for the project, working with the different, with different teams, whether the project managers, whether the contractors on submitting their cash flows. 488 00:48:17,301.3333333 --> 00:48:21,291.3333333 So all of the checks and balances and the finances within the project. 489 00:48:21,381.3333333 --> 00:48:26,926.3333333 And the reporting comes from the PMO function, and then they report to the finance side of the client. 490 00:48:27,666.3333333 --> 00:48:30,411.3333333 Uh, so how do you the finance, that's interesting. 491 00:48:30,411.3333333 --> 00:48:54,271.3333333 So how do you achieve that? Do you like suc someone to the finance team that's part of like how do you actually structurally set up that finance integration? So I typically have a finance lead on, on the project, on the PMO team, right? And then they are in charge of reviewing all the invoices before getting them into the system for the final client approval. 492 00:48:54,481.3333333 --> 00:48:56,11.3333333 So they do their checklist. 493 00:48:56,11.3333333 --> 00:48:57,61.3333333 I have a checklist. 494 00:48:57,376.3333333 --> 00:49:16,6.3333333 For all the financial reviews, right? So you go and check the first, you have to check the contract, you have to check the, what we agreed on, the GCs and the grs, the, the rates, the billing rates, the equipment rates, and then make sure that everything is in place the way we set it up. 495 00:49:16,516.3333333 --> 00:49:24,796.3333333 And when, when everything is in place, you go and put it in the system and then, you know, just let the client finance team know it's in the system. 496 00:49:24,796.3333333 --> 00:49:27,676.3333333 It's approved by the pm by the cost manager. 497 00:49:27,886.3333333 --> 00:49:32,716.3333333 We did our checks and balances, take a final review, approve it in your system. 498 00:49:32,996.3333333 --> 00:49:34,736.3333333 And then same for the cash flow. 499 00:49:34,886.3333333 --> 00:49:47,636.3333333 They pull all the cash flows from all the teams, put it in one, you know, consolidated project cash, program cash flow, and go discuss it with the client on monthly or quarterly basis. 500 00:49:50,66.3333333 --> 00:49:50,366.3333333 Okay. 501 00:49:50,366.3333333 --> 00:49:51,901.3333333 And did I interrupt you or was that the last. 502 00:49:52,871.3333333 --> 00:49:53,891.3333333 No, it's not the last. 503 00:49:54,851.3333333 --> 00:49:55,421.3333333 Okay, keep going. 504 00:49:55,421.3333333 --> 00:50:25,341.3333333 Yeah, So you have the product controls procurement finance, for me, most important data and analytics, I always recommend having at least one person of data and analytics team member on the team for reporting and P-M-P-M-I-S systems, right? Like within our world, we use either Procore Project Insight, tango Kahua, you know, you can name how many, you know tools we have in the PMIS and the cost management side. 505 00:50:25,911.3333333 --> 00:50:39,581.3333333 So you need to have a data analytical person that configurate all this, set the permissions, pull the information, create the dashboards and the reports for the client, and make sure everything is working correctly. 506 00:50:39,881.3333333 --> 00:50:44,741.3333333 So for me, that's, you know, my key person on the PMO who makes sure. 507 00:50:45,581.3333333 --> 00:50:47,561.3333333 All the information is accurate. 508 00:50:47,591.3333333 --> 00:50:52,121.3333333 Pull the and on time, working on reports with all the different teams and functions. 509 00:50:52,781.3333333 --> 00:50:55,301.3333333 So that's an important individual on the team. 510 00:50:55,451.3333333 --> 00:50:56,171.3333333 Key person. 511 00:50:56,691.3333333 --> 00:50:58,921.3333333 There is some time, the design lead. 512 00:50:59,11.3333333 --> 00:51:06,961.3333333 So from a cost and scheduling and risk and procurement perspective, that's the controlled part. 513 00:51:06,961.3333333 --> 00:51:23,341.3333333 But there's also the design management part where you have a design lead who's making sure that all the design that's submitted by the consultant follows the, I would say the design guidelines of the client from a design perspective. 514 00:51:23,831.3333333 --> 00:51:30,371.3333333 Make sure we get all the sign off from the client, you know, just, we have, or we create gateways. 515 00:51:30,461.3333333 --> 00:51:37,541.3333333 So you go and, and just get the buy off of the client and the design that's submitted by the consultants after everyone review them. 516 00:51:37,541.3333333 --> 00:51:37,931.3333333 Right. 517 00:51:38,81.3333333 --> 00:51:40,91.3333333 So sometime you have a design lead. 518 00:51:40,331.3333333 --> 00:51:52,391.3333333 What else? Sometime you have, you could have a communication person who's responsible for all the project communication, the templates, you know, the events, the meeting coordinations. 519 00:51:52,671.3333333 --> 00:51:55,791.3333333 Sometimes it's just you, you have project coordinator on the project team. 520 00:51:55,791.3333333 --> 00:52:00,921.3333333 Sometimes you just have a communication manager responsible for all the program, you know, communications. 521 00:52:01,311.3333333 --> 00:52:05,431.3333333 That's what I can doc control and doc control. 522 00:52:05,461.3333333 --> 00:52:09,31.3333333 Does that sit within the PMO as well? Yes. 523 00:52:09,91.3333333 --> 00:52:09,541.3333333 Yes. 524 00:52:09,541.3333333 --> 00:52:11,281.3333333 Doc control as well? Yes. 525 00:52:12,31.3333333 --> 00:52:12,961.3333333 I think we covered it. 526 00:52:12,991.3333333 --> 00:52:13,681.3333333 That was a lot. 527 00:52:15,871.3333333 --> 00:52:21,31.3333333 What I heard was, uh, let's see, procurement, cost, schedule, risk. 528 00:52:21,431.3333333 --> 00:52:25,631.3333333 A finance lead that interfaces with finance gets your actuals. 529 00:52:26,31.3333333 --> 00:52:36,721.3333333 And then doc control, a data person that brings it all together and a communications person who also helps with like reporting and coordination and all sorts of other things. 530 00:52:36,751.3333333 --> 00:52:36,991.3333333 Yeah. 531 00:52:36,991.3333333 --> 00:52:38,911.3333333 And, and you can look at, at it in different ways. 532 00:52:38,911.3333333 --> 00:52:43,351.3333333 Like sometimes you can combine like what the finance person is doing. 533 00:52:43,351.3333333 --> 00:52:46,711.3333333 Sometimes the cost manager is doing both like finance and cost, right. 534 00:52:47,11.3333333 --> 00:52:48,391.3333333 From a PMO perspective. 535 00:52:48,661.3333333 --> 00:52:48,931.3333333 Yeah. 536 00:52:48,931.3333333 --> 00:52:51,771.3333333 And sometimes you get the doc control. 537 00:52:51,891.3333333 --> 00:53:01,881.3333333 It's the same person who's doing the data analytics because it's part of their role is to make sure the documents and the SharePoint or the tools are, you know, being managed the same way. 538 00:53:02,61.3333333 --> 00:53:06,621.3333333 So you can split or combine, you know, the way in different ways. 539 00:53:06,831.3333333 --> 00:53:10,971.3333333 It always require, you know, alignment with your customer and how you wanna do things. 540 00:53:12,141.3333333 --> 00:53:12,531.3333333 Okay. 541 00:53:12,531.3333333 --> 00:53:16,346.3333333 So that's a great overview and now I'll ask you a hard question. 542 00:53:17,726.3333333 --> 00:53:29,201.3333333 For you, but don't name names, which is like, what is one of the biggest lessons you've learned from a project that went sideways, Without incriminating anyone? Yes. 543 00:53:29,606.3333333 --> 00:53:32,936.3333333 What's something that you can share with us? A lesson learned. 544 00:53:32,966.3333333 --> 00:53:32,996.3333333 Okay. 545 00:53:33,116.3333333 --> 00:53:33,566.3333333 Okay. 546 00:53:35,66.3333333 --> 00:53:47,396.3333333 Honestly, it would be like if you're dealing with someone in charge who doesn't understand the importance of what we're doing, right? Yeah. 547 00:53:47,966.3333333 --> 00:53:49,276.3333333 That that's typical. 548 00:53:49,276.3333333 --> 00:53:52,636.3333333 It happens, you know, uh, just yes. 549 00:53:52,636.3333333 --> 00:53:58,996.3333333 Like, why do even need a cost manager what they're doing? And then I, okay. 550 00:53:58,996.3333333 --> 00:54:03,446.3333333 That's, let's say the basics for, controlling a project. 551 00:54:03,446.3333333 --> 00:54:07,906.3333333 Yes, the project manager is liable, but let's look into the workload. 552 00:54:07,906.3333333 --> 00:54:09,681.3333333 Let's look into their scope of work. 553 00:54:10,876.3333333 --> 00:54:16,96.3333333 Can they do it for a multi-billion dollar project on their own? Probably not. 554 00:54:16,786.3333333 --> 00:54:21,46.3333333 When it comes to a big portfolio, you need to standardize your process. 555 00:54:21,76.3333333 --> 00:54:24,736.3333333 Like one point I I, I, I just stepped into a project. 556 00:54:25,66.3333333 --> 00:54:27,226.3333333 It was six different, a program. 557 00:54:27,226.3333333 --> 00:54:29,536.3333333 I would say it was six different project or maybe more. 558 00:54:29,536.3333333 --> 00:54:29,926.3333333 Right. 559 00:54:30,196.3333333 --> 00:54:36,426.3333333 And then I was, each project manager was doing their own thing, their own templates, then own way of reporting. 560 00:54:36,726.3333333 --> 00:54:40,596.3333333 And I was like, okay, from a portfolio manager perspective. 561 00:54:41,256.3333333 --> 00:54:46,206.3333333 How would I just see the entire program budget, the entire contingency? How would I manage it? Yeah. 562 00:54:46,386.3333333 --> 00:54:48,456.3333333 Then like, we need a standardized process. 563 00:54:48,756.3333333 --> 00:54:51,246.3333333 We need a standardized work breakdown structure. 564 00:54:51,366.3333333 --> 00:54:59,76.3333333 Cause break, you don't have, not, not everyone has to be using all the work breakdown structure, but we need to have a general one that everyone is using. 565 00:54:59,286.3333333 --> 00:55:20,46.3333333 So part of the PMO, uh, responsibility or one of the main responsibilities is to build the structure and of standardization across your portfolio to have one reporting way, one way of identifying the gaps, uh, driving the cost, the schedule of the entire program, especially if they are interrelated products. 566 00:55:21,756.3333333 --> 00:55:30,876.3333333 And so is it when you meet that resistance at the executive level, which I think happens a lot, I would bet it's over 40% because PMOs are not known. 567 00:55:30,876.3333333 --> 00:55:32,436.3333333 Like people know what A CFO is. 568 00:55:32,436.3333333 --> 00:55:33,816.3333333 People don't know what A PMO is. 569 00:55:33,846.3333333 --> 00:55:34,686.3333333 I think they will. 570 00:55:34,686.3333333 --> 00:55:35,491.3333333 I think it's growing. 571 00:55:36,201.3333333 --> 00:55:48,921.3333333 But I think you still, it's, it's, and, and actually if you go now to the top clients or top companies in each industry, they now have a PMO structure. 572 00:55:48,951.3333333 --> 00:55:50,811.3333333 Others are starting to follow. 573 00:55:50,811.3333333 --> 00:55:55,81.3333333 Right? And it's really, it, it should be, you know, an easy pitch. 574 00:55:55,81.3333333 --> 00:56:01,981.3333333 Because when I step into a new customer, tell 'em, okay, this is how the project was before having a PMO. 575 00:56:02,161.3333333 --> 00:56:19,911.3333333 This is what the project will look like after having a PMO from a structured perspective, from a controlling perspective, for me, even like when I go to a client, we're really here to help the client, right? We are here, we're, we are here to give them visibility on reporting, visibility on how the product is going. 576 00:56:20,511.3333333 --> 00:56:28,501.3333333 But sometimes and that, that's my, I would say my school of doing things is we have to always be transparent with the client, even if it's. 577 00:56:29,461.3333333 --> 00:56:32,161.3333333 A risk that will get the product sideways. 578 00:56:32,521.3333333 --> 00:56:33,541.3333333 Let them know about it. 579 00:56:34,21.3333333 --> 00:56:36,121.3333333 Let them know that we are working to solve it. 580 00:56:36,541.3333333 --> 00:56:41,341.3333333 But you know, just don't hide it under the rugs until you try to find a solution. 581 00:56:41,341.3333333 --> 00:56:42,421.3333333 Maybe you find, maybe not. 582 00:56:42,631.3333333 --> 00:56:52,921.3333333 So it's so like our role is to always keep the client informed and informed of the problem and informed of the efforts being done to resolve the problem. 583 00:56:53,41.3333333 --> 00:56:54,241.3333333 This is how I would look at it. 584 00:56:55,411.3333333 --> 00:57:03,561.3333333 That's an amazing point, which I think is, is it's so fundamental that you are the speed of transparency and disclosure. 585 00:57:03,831.3333333 --> 00:57:14,991.3333333 Like if you have a PMO that's really doing well for you, I think one of the big differences is that they will bring you news that you didn't wanna hear, and it's very hard to hear. 586 00:57:15,261.3333333 --> 00:57:22,131.3333333 And maybe there's some tricks you could share about how to share that news because like that is one of the core functions of the PMO. 587 00:57:22,851.3333333 --> 00:57:26,901.3333333 But it's also one of the most dangerous, and there's a reason people try and sweep things under the rug. 588 00:57:26,901.3333333 --> 00:57:30,601.3333333 Like how do you advise your teams to create that open? Okay. 589 00:57:30,601.3333333 --> 00:57:39,401.3333333 Again, I I, I, I, I wouldn't say I'm the best one to do it because I'm always the person who, you know, I, I like to have everything, you know, transparent. 590 00:57:39,401.3333333 --> 00:57:43,91.3333333 So there's some clients I work with, they truly appreciate it. 591 00:57:43,331.3333333 --> 00:57:44,801.3333333 They truly appreciate what I'm doing. 592 00:57:44,801.3333333 --> 00:57:46,781.3333333 Oh, thank you for letting us know. 593 00:57:46,901.3333333 --> 00:57:48,101.3333333 Now we understand. 594 00:57:48,281.3333333 --> 00:57:49,301.3333333 Now we wanna solve it. 595 00:57:49,301.3333333 --> 00:57:49,721.3333333 Right. 596 00:57:50,531.3333333 --> 00:57:52,481.3333333 Some clients without naming names, right. 597 00:57:53,531.3333333 --> 00:57:59,921.3333333 They were just, why are you telling me this? We will know later in six months, and then we can take care of it. 598 00:57:59,921.3333333 --> 00:58:01,241.3333333 And then, okay. 599 00:58:01,241.3333333 --> 00:58:07,811.3333333 I'm, I'm telling you, because you are the one liable for the entire, I'd say entire program or project or whatever. 600 00:58:07,811.3333333 --> 00:58:10,691.3333333 So you should know, even if you don't wanna. 601 00:58:10,781.3333333 --> 00:58:16,331.3333333 To make a decision now, you should just, you know, be aware of the, of the thing. 602 00:58:16,331.3333333 --> 00:58:23,691.3333333 And some of them, you know, they don't wanna know because they would have to report it higher and they don't wanna communicate this message to the leadership, you know? Right. 603 00:58:23,811.3333333 --> 00:58:29,571.3333333 But from my point of view, I do communicate it because I don't see a problem out of transparency. 604 00:58:29,911.3333333 --> 00:58:32,521.3333333 It is what, like, I always tell them, it is what it is. 605 00:58:32,521.3333333 --> 00:58:32,791.3333333 Right. 606 00:58:32,821.3333333 --> 00:58:33,451.3333333 It happened. 607 00:58:33,571.3333333 --> 00:58:34,741.3333333 We need to figure it out. 608 00:58:34,741.3333333 --> 00:58:37,181.3333333 So just, I'm not a complainer, as you said. 609 00:58:37,181.3333333 --> 00:58:42,851.3333333 I, I'm a person who try, I'm, uh, I'm results driven and I try to find a solution for things. 610 00:58:44,261.3333333 --> 00:58:52,931.3333333 So, yeah, no, you know, it happens, but, uh, it depends on the, on the character and the, and the culture of the client you're dealing with. 611 00:58:52,931.3333333 --> 00:59:00,941.3333333 So I, I was lucky to deal with a lot of, you know, I would say understanding and, and good clients that, uh, we're still friends. 612 00:59:00,941.3333333 --> 00:59:31,531.3333333 Even after I left my previous companies we're still, you know, working and discussing things because, you know, we, we were aligned a lot of things and our way of doing things was almost the same, right? So this is that transparency issue, right? It goes all the way down to the site level, the individual person that doesn't tell us, you know, the foreman that he forgot to bring his tools all the way up, right? So how do you, how do you break through to get, 'cause really what you're saying is I'm communicating reality to my superiors. 613 00:59:31,891.3333333 --> 00:59:42,541.3333333 But then you have, if you look down into reality from where you're sitting, you have all these barriers of getting to the reality of like, there, there's all sorts of incentives for folks to cover up what's really happening. 614 00:59:43,186.3333333 --> 00:59:47,656.3333333 It cover ups the wrong word, but like, delay disclosure, I guess, would be a way to put it, but yes. 615 00:59:47,716.3333333 --> 00:59:51,586.3333333 And, and how do you do that? How do you find the truth? Yes. 616 00:59:51,586.3333333 --> 00:59:56,206.3333333 I, I I, I I, I totally get your question and there are few things here. 617 00:59:56,446.3333333 --> 01:00:01,936.3333333 So the first thing is, it comes all to leadership, right? To, to what I was saying at the beginning. 618 01:00:01,936.3333333 --> 01:00:06,436.3333333 We're not here to police, we're here to help, right? Mistakes happen. 619 01:00:06,886.3333333 --> 01:00:10,366.3333333 Just let us know it from a leadership perspective. 620 01:00:10,366.3333333 --> 01:00:14,26.3333333 There are some team members, oh, if someone made a mistake, they will get fired. 621 01:00:14,566.3333333 --> 01:00:19,576.3333333 If that's your approach, you will never know, right? There will, no one will be transparent from you. 622 01:00:20,56.3333333 --> 01:00:21,376.3333333 Always my advice. 623 01:00:22,186.3333333 --> 01:00:23,116.3333333 We are here to help. 624 01:00:23,116.3333333 --> 01:00:24,496.3333333 If there's a mistake, let us know. 625 01:00:24,526.3333333 --> 01:00:26,816.3333333 We'll work together on making it, resolved. 626 01:00:27,296.3333333 --> 01:00:30,836.3333333 And yeah, there could be punishment, stuff like that. 627 01:00:30,836.3333333 --> 01:00:32,366.3333333 But again, mistakes happen. 628 01:00:32,366.3333333 --> 01:00:40,466.3333333 We understand if it's a repetitive mistake, we told you you didn't do it once, twice, three times, then we have a problem. 629 01:00:40,736.3333333 --> 01:00:41,186.3333333 But. 630 01:00:41,561.3333333 --> 01:00:46,331.3333333 If a mistake happen, we need to, you know, get ahead of it and try to solve it. 631 01:00:46,541.3333333 --> 01:00:49,361.3333333 So it comes to leadership and the way you treat things. 632 01:00:49,361.3333333 --> 01:00:55,91.3333333 So if you want everyone to be transparent with you, it's the approach you're telling them how to do it right. 633 01:00:55,751.3333333 --> 01:01:07,481.3333333 But I wouldn't truly rely always on the transparency of everyone, although we practice this leadership style at the same time, that's why the PMO team is involved and engaged in the project. 634 01:01:07,541.3333333 --> 01:01:10,361.3333333 We see problems with my team. 635 01:01:10,361.3333333 --> 01:01:13,661.3333333 You know, we have weekly meetings, reporting everything. 636 01:01:14,441.3333333 --> 01:01:15,611.3333333 I ask questions. 637 01:01:15,611.3333333 --> 01:01:24,131.3333333 I'm not just, okay, if this doesn't make sense, I tell them this doesn't make sense, and then I'll dig deep into it and then we figure out where the problem is coming from. 638 01:01:24,431.3333333 --> 01:01:33,821.3333333 I asked my team always to validate the information they're providing, right? It's not just, oh, this is the number, but how come? This is the estimate? I see this is the. 639 01:01:34,691.3333333 --> 01:01:39,101.3333333 Third party estimate, and there's something wrong here, so let's deep dive into it. 640 01:01:39,281.3333333 --> 01:01:45,191.3333333 So you always should, you know, just make common sense of what you're seeing and ask questions to get to the bottom of it. 641 01:01:46,1.3333333 --> 01:01:51,591.3333333 And then, from a safety perspective, you know, you, you, you give a good, a good example on foreman. 642 01:01:51,621.3333333 --> 01:02:03,171.3333333 Foreman is not bringing his PPE tools, right? I was on a project that had almost on the owner side, which is not typical because safety is the responsibility of general contractor. 643 01:02:03,381.3333333 --> 01:02:12,741.3333333 But on the owner side, we almost had five safety resources on the owner rep team, which, you know, it's not common, but there was. 644 01:02:13,311.3333333 --> 01:02:25,491.3333333 I would say a safety officer or safety manager or safety coordinator, that's always on site, always taking notes, always helping and telling teams what to do, and reporting it. 645 01:02:25,911.3333333 --> 01:02:29,641.3333333 It's not reporting just to get everyone punished, but to make it, better. 646 01:02:29,791.3333333 --> 01:02:36,31.3333333 At the same time, we're always giving incentives for the people who follow, you know, the, the safety precautions. 647 01:02:36,331.3333333 --> 01:02:42,711.3333333 Uh, these incentives could go to, acknowledging their efforts and appreciating it to everyone at the same time. 648 01:02:42,711.3333333 --> 01:02:45,561.3333333 There should be, you know, some gift card stuff like that. 649 01:02:45,561.3333333 --> 01:02:45,801.3333333 Right. 650 01:02:45,801.3333333 --> 01:02:52,221.3333333 So you need to incentivize your theme, which take me back to the, my PhD thesis about, you know, how to make your employees happy. 651 01:02:52,941.3333333 --> 01:02:53,421.3333333 Yeah. 652 01:02:53,481.3333333 --> 01:02:55,731.3333333 Which we gotta have a whole episode on that. 653 01:02:55,761.3333333 --> 01:02:57,866.3333333 Um, how to make your employees happy. 654 01:02:58,26.3333333 --> 01:02:59,691.3333333 I, I think I really need to learn that. 655 01:03:01,316.3333333 --> 01:03:05,431.3333333 I, I, I think that's a really great PhD to have to go into this profession. 656 01:03:05,491.3333333 --> 01:03:05,686.3333333 For sure. 657 01:03:05,856.3333333 --> 01:03:06,876.3333333 And just in general. 658 01:03:07,401.3333333 --> 01:03:07,731.3333333 Yeah. 659 01:03:07,731.3333333 --> 01:03:09,806.3333333 No, I, I, I, I enjoyed it. 660 01:03:09,891.3333333 --> 01:03:11,421.3333333 It was exciting topic for me. 661 01:03:11,421.3333333 --> 01:03:26,391.3333333 So, So going back to the school days, if you were back in school you know, what advice would you give to a student or someone else looking to pursue a career? Maybe someone that's like, I want to be running billion dollar programs in 10 years, 15 years. 662 01:03:26,391.3333333 --> 01:03:36,331.3333333 What, what would you, what advice would you give? So, yeah, so, so my advice would always be like, keep learning, right? So just continuous education. 663 01:03:36,691.3333333 --> 01:03:38,701.3333333 I wouldn't say keep learning in school. 664 01:03:38,701.3333333 --> 01:03:41,101.3333333 I would say keep learning the new tools. 665 01:03:41,341.3333333 --> 01:03:46,561.3333333 Keep learning the new methods, you know, keep listening to other experienced people. 666 01:03:46,921.3333333 --> 01:03:54,436.3333333 So this, you know, just take current on tools and methods work, kind of, I, you know, one of my advice to I would say. 667 01:03:55,751.3333333 --> 01:04:00,611.3333333 To myself when I was back to school is to work for companies who invest in their employees. 668 01:04:00,941.3333333 --> 01:04:04,121.3333333 So I can just get a better offer financially. 669 01:04:04,451.3333333 --> 01:04:19,421.3333333 But I know that this company will not invest in me, will not train me, will not, I don't have a career succession plan there, so I always advise, you know people is, is just go to a company, work for a company that invests in your growth, not just the compensation. 670 01:04:19,501.3333333 --> 01:04:21,61.3333333 That's really valuable tha that. 671 01:04:21,61.3333333 --> 01:04:29,761.3333333 Uh, and it's so hard if you're a college student looking at your first offer to just look at how much are they paying me? What's my stock option? And just go with the highest bidder. 672 01:04:29,761.3333333 --> 01:04:31,151.3333333 But that it's true. 673 01:04:31,151.3333333 --> 01:04:40,451.3333333 I've seen people get picked up and put into leadership programs like I think GE spends two or three years with their managers where they will send them to their own. 674 01:04:40,451.3333333 --> 01:04:41,741.3333333 It's almost like your private MBA. 675 01:04:42,596.3333333 --> 01:04:47,776.3333333 And that's gotta be worth that's probably an extra $300,000 that they're throwing in. 676 01:04:47,776.3333333 --> 01:04:51,466.3333333 But if, but if you're not, if, if you, it only works if you care about it. 677 01:04:51,466.3333333 --> 01:04:52,636.3333333 So that's really great tip. 678 01:04:53,596.3333333 --> 01:05:14,186.3333333 So what, and speaking of tips or tricks for resource planning, do you have something that you could leave us with some trick or phrase or thing that, that No, my biggest step for resource planning is really like to understand the client culture, you know, the needs of the project scope, just before making any staffing decisions. 679 01:05:15,626.3333333 --> 01:05:18,26.3333333 And then what about for PMO? Okay. 680 01:05:18,26.3333333 --> 01:05:25,576.3333333 For PMO, it's, you need to understand how each piece is being, put together or works together. 681 01:05:25,756.3333333 --> 01:05:32,296.3333333 So if someone wants to know how to set up a PMO team, I would advise join A PMO. 682 01:05:33,166.3333333 --> 01:05:44,501.3333333 Existing PMO team learn the process, you know, on the cost management, the scheduling, the communication, the data analytics, and then you'll be able to build, you know, the entirety. 683 01:05:46,31.3333333 --> 01:05:53,531.3333333 And then what about books or associations or anything else? Like, how do you stay up to date with all this? What are your favorite go-to resources? Okay. 684 01:05:53,531.3333333 --> 01:05:55,631.3333333 When it comes to book here, I lack this skill. 685 01:05:55,631.3333333 --> 01:05:56,111.3333333 Okay. 686 01:05:56,111.3333333 --> 01:06:08,386.3333333 I'm not a good reader, I would say, but I learned through, you know, attending conferences, workshops, you know, and even, you know, just asking Chad g pt, you know? Yeah. 687 01:06:09,336.3333333 --> 01:06:10,746.3333333 It's our new encyclopedia. 688 01:06:11,606.3333333 --> 01:06:11,826.3333333 Yep. 689 01:06:12,881.3333333 --> 01:06:31,11.3333333 What about for making people happy? When you came across your, uh, research work what book or resource did you have there? Um, so no, actually when it comes to thesis, you know, there is part of it that you have to go do literature review previous papers, what, what others did. 690 01:06:31,251.3333333 --> 01:06:34,461.3333333 But at the same time, there is the practical part. 691 01:06:34,961.3333333 --> 01:06:36,551.3333333 You know, you have to do a case study. 692 01:06:36,551.3333333 --> 01:06:49,241.3333333 I've went to three top companies internationally, uh, and then I created a survey and the company was helpful and, provided the, distributed the survey to their employees. 693 01:06:49,511.3333333 --> 01:06:55,501.3333333 I had some questionnaires they answered, just, you know, you use some tools and analytical tools. 694 01:06:55,501.3333333 --> 01:07:07,891.3333333 Say, okay, what's the pattern of what are the most important thing to the employees in our construction world? You know, versus what's less important? And you would be surprised, number one wasn't finance. 695 01:07:07,981.3333333 --> 01:07:12,121.3333333 So yeah, number one was. 696 01:07:13,216.3333333 --> 01:07:15,346.3333333 You wanna know? I'd love to know. 697 01:07:16,186.3333333 --> 01:07:16,456.3333333 Okay. 698 01:07:16,726.3333333 --> 01:07:16,906.3333333 No. 699 01:07:16,906.3333333 --> 01:07:19,606.3333333 Number one was the career growth. 700 01:07:20,926.3333333 --> 01:07:21,586.3333333 Okay. 701 01:07:22,246.3333333 --> 01:07:38,326.3333333 So as like, do I have a career growth within this company? Do I have a job security? Will I get promoted? Because you may have the best offer for your current position, but you stayed the same way for 10 years. 702 01:07:38,326.3333333 --> 01:07:47,776.3333333 Right? So just how would I grow within my career? Yeah, that is super helpful. 703 01:07:48,76.3333333 --> 01:07:58,246.3333333 I don't know if everyone thinks about career growth as the number one thing they need to be thinking about with their teams and when they're selecting people to join new projects. 704 01:07:58,576.3333333 --> 01:08:02,56.3333333 The, it's, it's like you're so focused on getting the project done. 705 01:08:02,56.3333333 --> 01:08:06,286.3333333 You're just like, do you want some money? And to do cost engineering, I have that for you. 706 01:08:06,586.3333333 --> 01:08:10,556.3333333 But knowing that like long-term happiness connects to that career growth. 707 01:08:11,316.3333333 --> 01:08:12,396.3333333 That's a really great tip. 708 01:08:12,396.3333333 --> 01:08:12,966.3333333 Thank you. 709 01:08:14,106.3333333 --> 01:08:14,286.3333333 Yep. 710 01:08:14,316.3333333 --> 01:08:21,766.3333333 Well, uh, ached how can people get in touch with you if they wanna follow you or learn a bit more or what's the name of your PhD paper? We can all read it. 711 01:08:23,86.3333333 --> 01:08:23,566.3333333 Get a hold of that. 712 01:08:24,376.3333333 --> 01:08:27,556.3333333 So actually I don't remember the, the name of the paper. 713 01:08:27,556.3333333 --> 01:08:28,306.3333333 I can send it to you. 714 01:08:28,396.3333333 --> 01:08:29,791.3333333 We'll include it clinical. 715 01:08:30,706.3333333 --> 01:08:31,6.3333333 Yeah. 716 01:08:31,6.3333333 --> 01:08:34,336.3333333 But uh, people can easily reach out to me on LinkedIn. 717 01:08:34,336.3333333 --> 01:08:36,466.3333333 You know, I just always post on LinkedIn. 718 01:08:36,496.3333333 --> 01:08:43,456.3333333 I'm very well connected with people on LinkedIn, so just I can send, you know, you have my LinkedIn profile. 719 01:08:43,516.3333333 --> 01:08:48,256.3333333 I can just, I always accept, you know, new invites and just respond to people on LinkedIn. 720 01:08:49,366.3333333 --> 01:08:57,36.3333333 Alright, well Achmed Abdel Salam, thank you so much for sharing your expertise and coming on the pod. 721 01:08:57,36.3333333 --> 01:08:59,256.3333333 We learned so much today, so thank you. 722 01:08:59,496.3333333 --> 01:08:59,976.3333333 Thank you. 723 01:08:59,976.3333333 --> 01:09:01,536.3333333 I appreciate the invitation. 724 01:09:01,536.3333333 --> 01:09:02,796.3333333 I really enjoyed it. 725 01:09:02,796.3333333 --> 01:09:03,756.3333333 It's exciting.

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011 - Resource Planning, PMOs & the Future of AI with Ahmed AbdelSalam

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}011 - Resource Planning, PMOs & the Future of AI with Ahmed AbdelSalam