November 19, 2025 • 31 mins
What does it take to build—and protect—culture when your team and community are growing faster than your playbook? In this episode, Indra talks with Derek Kastner, Head of Experience at Fabrik, about what it really means to nurture community and connection in a rapidly scaling organization.
From being one of Fabrik’s first three employees to helping onboard its growing team and shape the member experience, Derek shares candid lessons about balancing perfectionism with presence, co-creating culture with members, and learning to set boundaries while staying deeply human. Together, they explore the tension between structure and spontaneity, the invisible “glue work” that holds communities together, and how transparency, trust, and a little messiness can make something truly special.
Useful Links:
- Derek on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/derekkastner/
- Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch:messymiddlemerch.com
- The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
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Episode Transcript
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Indra Klavins (00:05):
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hi everyone. Today, wehave a really, really good
topic, at least I'm going toenjoy it, and I really hope
you're going to enjoy it too.It's around lessons learned when
(00:27):
you're scaling organizations,which is kind of one of my
favorite things to do, for lotsof reasons, because you can
learn so much through thatprocess. But So for today, I
have somebody who's done this,and I would call is, is, is, we
could, we could call you a messymiddle master. Jared Kastner,
(00:49):
hey, I might throw on the I gota messy middle masters logo that
I put on for some of these. Ithink I'm going to pop that on
for this one so everyone cancheck that out. But Derek
hasner, I will not do youjustice. Why don't you tell
everybody a little little littlebit about yourself, who you are,
and then we'll get into some ofthe nitty gritty of scaling.
Derek Kastner (01:11):
Well, I first of all wear that with pride, so
thank you. Hi. I'm DerekKastner. I'm the head of
experience at Fabrik, where ournew social space in New York
City, and it's been a joy tokind of build this, this beast,
in the last 18 months.
Indra Klavins (01:30):
Yeah, no, it's and you are, I think you were
the first, you're not the firstFabrik person I communicated
with that was Gwen, because Ijoined sight unseen, but you're
the first person I met, IRL, andI heard so many good things
about you before I joined. I'mfrom Julia, so, yeah, so why
don't you, why don't we startwith tell everyone when a little
(01:52):
bit about Fabrik, because we'regoing to be talking about that a
lot through our conversation andreferring to it and it's not,
it's not. It's it's not, yeah,please define it.
Derek Kastner (02:03):
So Fabrik is a social space, or community
space, third space, if you'refamiliar with the term, if
you're not, your first space isyour home, your second space is
your work, and your third spaceis that place in between, where
you go to meet other people, goto workshops, go to gatherings,
(02:24):
learn about other topics ofinterest, and just, you know,
meet other people. So that'swhat we're building. I there's,
you know, a big thing that wewanted to tackle was the
loneliness epidemic, post covidworld. You know, we are so
isolated, even though we aremore connected than ever through
(02:45):
our devices, social media, butwe're not connecting the same
way face to face as we used to.And with that, there's a ton of
vacant real estate everywhere,especially in New York City,
that is just collecting dust.And how do we at both of those
things at the same time? How dowe go into a space, breathe new
(03:07):
life into it, and then getpeople in there, sharing their
ideas, sharing their interests,meeting others. So that is kind
of the quick and dirty of
Indra Klavins (03:17):
it. That's the quick and dirty of it. And it's,
you know, when people I workedat we work, and so I know what a
co worker, a true like, what'sme, a hardcore, stereotypical co
working spaces. This is sodifferent than that, because so
the space in Tribeca open, Mayof 2024 if I'm remembering
correctly, yeah, May of 2024 sonot all that long ago, and one
(03:42):
of the first cohorts of people,the goal was to attract
community builders. So it was acommunity for community
builders. I remember thatphrasing an awful lot. And so,
you know what's it's very meta.And you know, it's so you're,
(04:02):
you're doing things when you'rethinking about scaling culture.
Because from then, like it was,it was Gwen Jacqueline, you. So
there were three of you, really,that were, like, pulling all
this together. And since then,it's grown to, what, 1015,
people, not all full time,right?
Derek Kastner (04:22):
Yeah. I mean, we have, I believe, eight or so
full time employees, and then ahandful of part time employees
who are here supporting in theevenings. We have gatherings
past five, yes,
Indra Klavins (04:32):
which is huge, if you think about that, that's
like a year and a half of, like,massive scaling. That's, you
know, that's a version of theBlitz scaling term, right? You
know, so just that hyper growthof growing year over year. So
not only you're scaling thatculture, but because your
business is in the business ofbuilding community, poor
(04:54):
community builds so like it'sit's cascading, like, you can
just imagine the ripples growingof the. Impact of this of you
and and the impact that you canhave. So not only are you
scaling culture for you know,the people that are working
there, but you're scalingculture for everyone else to an
awful lot. But let's start withyou know, some of the first
(05:16):
things that you did in helpingto establish what the culture
was to help to and then figuringout how that grows. But like,
when, like, let's say the earlydays. Like, let's say the three,
first three ish, three to sixmonths. Like, establishing that
culture, defining that cultureas it was, all still coming
(05:38):
together. What you're you'rebuilding the plane while you're
flying it, right? There's thatmetaphor, yep.
Derek Kastner (05:43):
I think this space kind of lives in a massive
gray area for people. So as youwere saying, we're not a co
working space, but people willsometimes come in here and be
like, Oh, great, I'll use it asmy co working space. I am very
straightforward with them. Ifyou are planning on joining
Fabrik to be your nine to fiveco working space, Monday through
(06:05):
Friday. You will not be happy,no, because that is not what
we're building you. We want ourmembers, and we want people in
space talking to each other andspending lunch together and
engaging with each other andlearning about each other,
making new friends. That is whatthis space is for. This space is
to host gatherings. And so wewere really, really fortunate
(06:27):
with our early founding members,yourself included, who were just
people that were excited bythat. Yes, of course, you were
going to come here and work somedays, but other days you were
going to come here and host agathering. Other days you were
just coming here to read a book.Other days you were taking a
lunch meeting here. And I thinkall of those founding members
(06:49):
kind of really set the tone of,we want this space to be happy
and healthy, and that justpermeated with everyone who
eventually joined this space.And you know, I always say I
don't know how we found all ofthe best people in New York to
join Fabrik because, and I hearit to this day, when people come
in here, they're like, Why iseveryone so nice here? And it
(07:12):
just goes back to thefundamental of people are
excited to meet others. They'reexcited to make new friends and
learn new skills and learn aboutnew topics and share their
interests. And I think that haskind of been the backbone that
has supported Fabrik as it's grown.
Indra Klavins (07:29):
Yeah, I mean, as a member, I mean, I just had an
interaction with Julia, who nowmanages the day to day at
Tribeca, like she and I had aback and forth around something.
And what I said was somethingthat Jacqueline, the CEO, often
says, it is an extension. It's adifferent version my living
room. When people watch thevideo, they get to see my
little, real living room. But itis to me, I have this
(07:53):
protectiveness, right? I thinkthat all of us who are at the
core and the people who arelonger term members, whether
they're part of the founding 50or came afterwards. We're all
very protective of this culture,you know. And slight confession,
slight confession, I'm going togive to everyone. So I've
recorded this episode twice now.This is our second one with
(08:13):
Derek. He was, he was, sadly, soyou may have heard the one with
Nancy, because I think that onewill be out before the one with
Derek. So I had to, like, I hadnail snafus. So I know some of
this ahead of time, so a littleleading the witness. But you
know that I'll do it from thelens of myself. So I remember
things coming out, likegathering guides. I remember a
(08:34):
lot of different rules andguidelines that you you're the
one who created these things,right? Like, I'm wearing my I
get stuff done sweatshirt inhonor of Derek today, because
he's a get stuff done. Or,right? Not only is he a get
stuff done or he's a person whois the glue. And you know,
people who are glue, when theywant to not go completely, like,
(08:55):
get pulled in every possibledirection they are, they will
lean into the creation ofartifacts and documents and
things that can live on. So tellme a little bit more about those
pieces of the puzzle. Yeah.
Derek Kastner (09:07):
I mean, that is honestly the biggest reason why
I enjoy these smaller scaleprojects or new companies, is
because you can just jump infully and fit in wherever you're
needed. So, you know, it's twoparts. There were spaces that we
were entering that had beencollecting dust for years, and
(09:28):
we wanted to come in veryquickly, breathe new life into
them, take what was there,repurpose it, bring in new
furniture, but do it veryquickly, so that we could just
get the space open. So there'san element of, you know, design
and space. And I remember thefirst time I came into the
(09:48):
Tribeca space, I opened one ofthe doors, and I was like, This
room looks like Les Mis there'sa barricade in here. What is
going on? I. And so I spent thatmorning pulling out all of these
benches and these chairs thatwere just piled up to the
ceiling. Oh, I can guess whatroom that was, yeah. And right
(10:10):
behind it was a recording booth.And I went, did anyone know that
we had a recording booth inhere? And nope, but we rolled
with it. Earlier this week, Iwas in DUMBO hanging sound
panels because we wanted to kindof dampen the sound and make it
a little more cozy. You know,there's an ability to dive in
(10:32):
and kind of create the spacethat you want to build and the
space that you want to create.But with that, you know, you
have to be very adamant aboutkind of the rules and the
regulations of the space itself.So, like you said, we built a
gathering guide that was bestpractices on how to host in
(10:53):
space. You know, some people whowere coming in here have hosted
all over the city. Do itnightly, and they can come in
somewhere, and they do it likethe back of their hand. They
Yep, they are good, and theyhead on to the next thing, and
they're pros. There are otherpeople who are just starting
(11:15):
out, and that's like, who wewanted to be mindful of too. We
want to support those people whoare just starting out. So that
guide was built so that thosepeople had a resource to go from
zero to 100 and we have ourmember Guide, which is kind of,
how are you using the space ourterms and conditions. You know,
(11:37):
internally, I built our Fabrikwiki, so that's our just
internal resource ofinformation, training, guides,
policies for internal staff. Youknow, all of that is changing
every single day and sometimeschanging drastically week over
week. But that's also theexciting part, you know, as you
(11:58):
said it, and then you canquickly play and then see what
works. If something's notworking, completely pivot and
try something else out,
Indra Klavins (12:07):
but you're writing it down. And that's
there are so many so you hit ona whole bunch of different
things. But because in startuplife, startup life is not for
everyone, and there's differentstages of the startup, right?
You know what? I I'm good atstartup life, from like a, b to
c, round of funding, at least,maturity wise, for whatever that
means. I can go into that inanother episode, and I'll
(12:29):
probably drop something into theglossary so people know a little
bit about that. But like, nomatter what stage you are in a
startup or an early stageorganization or early stage
team, even within an enterprise,like sometimes people are so
focused on like, I need to do. Ineed to do. I need to hustle
right, barring my WeWorkterminology, which drives me
crazy, but it is a good word.Sometimes you're so busy trying
(12:50):
to get the thing done that youdon't take the time to write it
down. But there's so much valuein writing it down as you go,
you know, because bunch ofthings like folklore, because
too many startups focus onfolklore, like just everything
is word of mouth, everything isword of mouth, and that that
(13:13):
doesn't allow for theconsistency. But what, what I've
found in Lisa documents thatI've been privy to is it's a
good set of guardrails, right?So that person who has done it a
gazillion times, I'll chooseRuthie this time, right? Who's
done it a gazillion times, ifshe decides that she's not this
kind of person, but she wants todo something completely wacky,
(13:33):
she can look at me like, okay,that's outside of the
guardrails. I'm not going to gothat route. That's not going to
fit here, right? But if you arethat new person, you have that
that guardrail to hold on to,right, and it's just, it's a
beautiful way of blending, likesupporting that spectrum of
experience.
Derek Kastner (13:52):
Yeah, and I've worked in companies before where
I've had to build them after thefact, and it is so much harder,
because then you're wreckingyour brain of what are those
fall details that I know I'mmissing, but I can't think of
them in this moment, or wherewere we six months ago? Can I go
back to where we were six monthsago and have a reference point
(14:15):
of what was working and what wechanged and why we changed it?
Playing catch up is not a game Iwant to play. So you know, when
I first joined Fabrik, before weeven opened this space, I knew
from the get go, everything hadto be written down, yeah,
everything had to be put onpaper. It didn't matter if it
was changing in five days. I hadto know where we were at that
(14:39):
moment so that we could build tothe next.
Indra Klavins (14:43):
It's because the brain can trick itself, right if
you don't write it down and likeyou're just saying, it gives you
such a it's so funny. Earlierthis week, I don't know why I
started, actually, do you know Istarted digging for old, old,
old resumes? So I went to myyahoo email, I'm like, I typed
in the word RESUME. I'm like,how far back can I go? Found
something with my most recentjob, starting in 2002 I was
(15:05):
like, and what I did with thisis I took my resume and I fed it
into chat GPT, who knows mepretty well. I'm like, Hey, old
resume. Any thoughts on theperson I was and where I am now?
And gave me a lovely thing.That's, I don't want to digress
into that too far, but, like,without that, but the same thing
with your documentation. That'swhy I'm bringing it up. When you
(15:26):
have that reference point of thething that you did, you can
actually see how far you'vecome, which is pretty
remarkable, like, what you'vedone in the time in this year
and a half ish, right? It's alittle bit more than that, but,
like, it's the better part oftwo years, is a phrase I
learned, like, I'm going tointroduce You've done so much,
(15:47):
and you can see exactly how faryou've grown, which is, kudos to
you. Kudos to you. Because notonly are you scaling so you've
gone from one location inTribeca, there's another
location in DUMBO, there areteam members who are like, this
is an IRL space, but some of theteam members are distributed for
very strategic reasons, right?How do you, how have you? Let's
(16:10):
talk a little bit aboutonboarding those new people and
getting them. Not the perfectword, but Indra nated, or, you
know, introduced into it soundsso heavy. It sounds like I can't
think of another one off the topof my head. But tell me more
about that.
Derek Kastner (16:28):
I I've done a lot of onboarding yes in my very
short career, yes, and a lotwhen it comes to training and
development, and I always goback to it requires a steady
hand and a lot of veryintentional one on one time,
which in a startup, and that canbe a little difficult, because,
(16:50):
you know, you're juggling Xamount of projects at all times,
and you're trying to finish andBuild and do the next thing so
you can get to the next phase.How do you split your time? So
you can just shut your computerand be really intentionally one
on one with one person to makesure that they are up to speed
(17:15):
on something that is moving atlight speed. But that kind of
goes back to the principles ofFabrik of, How are you engaging
with the people that aredirectly in front of you, face
to face. It takes time. It takesa lot of effort. It takes being
really intentional andunderstanding who someone is,
(17:39):
what their quirks are, how theirbrain works, where they want to
go in their career, what theybring to the table, what areas
are areas that they mightstruggle in, or what are the
areas that they don't feel asconfident in? How do you take
all of that and navigate each ofthose points for each specific
(18:04):
person so that they feel readyand aligned and ready to go.
That takes time. It does
Indra Klavins (18:10):
take time, like the spectrum of thoughts that I
have right now. So there are fartoo many organizations that
don't do a great job ofonboarding folks right. They're
like, there's the wiki. Read thewiki. It says, everything, okay,
everyone has different learningstyles, which you're very
conscious of, from the answerthat you just gave or the
(18:31):
explanation you just gave. Sobut let's assume that that's the
case. There's so much nuance andcontext that doesn't happen and
it de personalizes theexperience, because we are
humans, working with otherhumans like you outlined so much
that like which is why you'resuch an exceptional leader and
human being. Like you want tosee the person for who they are.
(18:52):
You want to understand theirwants, needs and desires. You
want to support them. You wantto figure out how they can best
align with Fabrik's mission andits work so that, like, all
boats can float. So like that isso the first time that you and I
are supposed to do somethingtogether. So we've talked about
the second time I was supposedto do something together, and
(19:14):
technology got in the way. Butthe first time that we got
life's life in has got in theway. You're going to be a panel
member on for for discussing theglue work, right? Your answer
just now just demonstrated whyyou are such good glue, because
you're paying attention to allof those things. And not
everyone has the facility to doall of that, but they might.
(19:35):
They should be able to do someof it, do the things that are
available to them,
Derek Kastner (19:41):
and I will say, I don't always do it well. I am
one person, and sometimes I missthe mark. And it's important to
know that, you know, there aretimes that it's just going to
happen and things are going tofall through the cracks, or some
days you show up and you justaren't your best. And that is.
That's okay, because I know forme, I am, I am like, I gotta get
(20:04):
it right. Everything has to becorrect. I want to make sure
everyone knows everything, andthey're good to go. They feel
supported, and they have all theanswers, and I'm there for
everyone whenever they needthat's not possible. That is
just no one is able to do that.
Indra Klavins (20:20):
No one is able to do that. No,
Derek Kastner (20:23):
no, but like, so it's yeah,
Indra Klavins (20:26):
no, go ahead. I always say I do what I can when
I can. When somebody sayssomething like that to me, I'm
like, I'm like, I'm justtomorrow, I'll be worse. But
like, but the I promise you Iwouldn't say. I also say I make
new mistakes every single day. Itry not to repeat the same old
ones, because that's
Derek Kastner (20:43):
so boring. But it's, it is, I'm gonna start
using that.
Indra Klavins (20:49):
It is, please, please. That's gonna be a
sticker someday, or a t shirt ora sweatshirt. Shout out to messy
middle merch.com anyway. But youknow it is. But the failures,
like, the failures are where,and everyone says this, the
failures are where the goodstuff comes from, whether
they're, you know, like smalllearnings or, like, small
(21:09):
failures or big failures orwhatever. And failure is such a
scary word, but I love the factthat you were just talking about
your perfectionism. We just hadthe episode that I dropped when
I couldn't drop. Our episode wasabout perfectionism. It is
something that is so so, youknow, indoctrinated into us from
grade school, like, You got toget it perfect. You got to have
(21:32):
the 100. You have to fill in theeven, the way that we filled in
the dots on those, those thoseScantron sheets, right? You
know, like, had to be perfect,right? We practice everything be
perfect. Like, but you justtalked about, like, can you
touch a little bit on yourjourney of, like, the failed
perfectionism, or, you know,letting go of that
perfectionism, like, what'swork, what hasn't?
Derek Kastner (21:51):
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's been a fun and
interesting road navigatingthat. I mean, thinking back, I
grew up doing theater anddancing, and so everything is
hit your mark. Be online. Do hitthe note, do the thing. And I
think that kind of cementedmentality. Also, you know,
(22:14):
wanting to be a high achiever,being in AP classes and like
wanting to see, you know,success in that regard, I think
all of those things werewonderful in setting a
foundation for, you know,wanting to succeed. But if you
let it go too far, it can go toofar in that direction. You know,
(22:37):
I, at 26 was working withJacqueline, our CEO, a Fabrik
for a different company. And Iwas burning oil all ends was
just going too in on everything.Was working too hard in every
regard. And at 26 gushing goals,and I was laid out in my bed,
was laid out in my bed for overa week, and my body just
(23:02):
completely shut down. And it wasa level of exhaustion that I
have never felt in my life, andthat for me, was a massive wake
up call, because, you know, it'ssilly that something like that
takes it for you to realize. Butit was that moment for me where
(23:23):
I was like, I cannot continue towork like this. I can't push
myself in every field, ineverything I want to do in my
life. I have to give myselfgrace. Yeah? So since then, it's
been better. I will say somedays are better than others,
but, you know, I think it'simportant to have a level of
(23:47):
drive and excitement about whatyou're doing, because it shows
that you care and shows that youwant it to succeed and that you
love it. Yeah, something toalways navigate, yeah.
Indra Klavins (24:02):
I mean, it's a, I think it's a, just like
everything else in life, theterminology that's helped Well,
let me rewind Indra, theterminology that's helped me
later in my life than in, let'ssay, my early years, has been
thinking of life as a practice,thinking of life as a series of
experiments. And that's helpedme exercise my letting go muscle
(24:23):
in all forums, forums formats,whatever, it's hard, it's hard
so, and I think that that'sprobably, I imagine, that's
resonant for most everyone,because the our listenership
tends to be doers, like they'rethey are the get stuff done.
Ers. They are the people whoare, you know, just just, they
are the people who are the glue,and we tend to put ourselves
(24:46):
later on the list thaneverything else and everyone
else. So, yeah, so we've coveredan awful lot of territory. Is
there anything that you would.Love to add to the story share
you know, or you know, or ifthere's something that's a bit
of inspiration, that's ourtouchstone for you, that you use
(25:09):
as you're working through a lotof the things around scaling or
lessons learned. I mean, theinvitation is open. Yeah, I
think
Derek Kastner (25:16):
the biggest thing that I've learned and something
that I always keep in the backof my mind is, don't be afraid
to try, because the worst thingthat happens is that it doesn't
work, and you pivot. Yeah, andwe pivoted many times in our 18
months. We recently just changedwhat our memberships look like.
(25:40):
You know, that is a pinnacle ofwhat Fabrik is, and kind of a
cornerstone of what this companyis, and we changed it, and it's
okay. You'll test things,they'll work. That's great.
You'll test things, they'll befine. You can make them better.
You'll test things. They'llfail. All learnings. Don't be
(26:04):
afraid of it.
Indra Klavins (26:05):
Yeah, I think the willingness to let go of
something that you worked sohard towards, I think what was
Jacqueline's post, I don't wasJacqueline or Gwen? It was like,
We guess what? We make therules. We get to change the
rules, right? You get to changesomething you don't want to be
willy nilly, right? Because whenyou're doing the type of work
that you do, when I do, youdon't want to, you don't want to
Flint and fleet like that drivespeople crazy. And that does not
(26:28):
create the confidence for forpeople to lead you and trust
you. And you are somebody who Ijust I truly trust, I truly
trust in a really deep way, butyou are able to to make that
change. Can you talk a littlebit about, you know, there was
the big town hall andcommunicating with members on
(26:49):
change. But can you talk alittle bit about when you're
onboarding somebody you knew whodid this organization, who's
trying really, really hard, and,like, the playbook was, you
know, X and today, it's x plusone, and they're like managing,
helping them navigate thechange. Can you talk a little
bit
Derek Kastner (27:08):
about Yeah, I think it comes back to tone. If
your tone in regard to what'schanging is, you know,
exasperated, overwhelmed, stressthat's going to be their
reaction. But if you enter theconversation with things have
changed, this is why it's allgood. How do you feel? Let's
(27:34):
move on. It relieves the stress,because everyone is resistant to
change. You know, we're humans.Don't like it, creatures of
habit. Yeah, yeah, no one does.Working for early stage
companies has forced me toembrace change more than I, you
(27:54):
know, previously did. But still,it's a hard thing to accept that
things are going to change andthat there's no they're not
going to stay consistent. So Ithink entering those
conversations with theunderstanding that it might be a
little difficult, it might be alittle creaky, it might be, you
(28:14):
know, not something you want tohear, but ultimately it's okay,
and that it's serving the bettergood or a better purpose. That's
the focus.
Indra Klavins (28:26):
And I think that that only works, or excuse me,
it works as well as it does foryou, because you lay that
foundation of that groundworkearly in the relationship. You
build trust early on. That doesit, and you understand and you
recognize the fact that the timeinvestment in helping that
person navigate that change isgoing to pay dividends in the
(28:49):
long run. It keeps them fromspiraling. It gets them on
track. It gets things movingforward much more quickly, if
you then, if you hadn't takenthe time to talk,
Derek Kastner (28:59):
yeah, and I want to hire for the long term. I
want people who are here thatare learning the ropes, that are
learning the day to dayoperations, that are excited by
it, and then we get to pull ontheir special skills or their
area of expertise and reallyfunnel them into something
specific. You know, that's thegoal with anyone that you hire
(29:21):
in an early stage company isthat they get brought on, they
get excited, and then they canbring their specialty to the
table, and you get to highlightit, and then they're there
forever, and they're supportingyou in the long term. But you
know, that's the goal
Indra Klavins (29:35):
I love, that I feel like we have another
episode on identifying the righttalent for you, or maybe a panel
discussion on it, or whatever,because that's a whole Pandora's
box that I could totally like.I'm so tempted to jump right
into it because I like, oh,because it is, it is hard, and
it's also, it also speaks tosomething that I've been working
on. Again, I think this is adifferent conversation, but to
(29:59):
how. Do you pull talent along asthe organize? How do you help
the talent evolve as theorganization evolves? Because
what you need, what you needed12 months ago, is not what you
need now, and how do you helpthem grow with it? Different
topic. If you're interested,maybe we can do a topic on that
somewhere, in some format. ButDerek, you are one of the first
people when I was floating theidea of the podcast. Who said to
(30:21):
me, you know, you asked me, Howlong? How long are your
episodes? And I said, 30minutes. He goes. Thank
goodness. I want and then theother thing that you said to me
is, you jump right in. You don'ttell me about, you know your
coffee. I know my audience. Wedon't have the time like not
that we're not interested inhearing about someone's coffee.
But that's more of a one on oneconversation than everybody in
(30:42):
the world wanting to know. Andso with that in mind, I just
want to thank you. I want tothank you for this rich, rich,
rich conversation. I want tothank you for helping me learn
from my mistakes, of mytechnology snafus, and for being
so supportive me in general, inlife. You are an amazing human
being. I'm tremendously gratefulto have you here. I'm going to
(31:03):
drop a bunch of notes. I'm goingto make sure your LinkedIn
profile and everything is is inthere, and if you want to drop
anything else in the show notes.But thank you. Thank you. I know
that our listeners are going toget something really good out of
this, and I hope that they joinus next time when we cover
another topic from the messymiddle, Bye, everyone. Bye.
(31:28):
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle. Word of
mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
(31:49):
at the messy middle matters.com,or in the show notes. Thank you
for joining us on this journey,this work is better when we do
it together. Until next timeyou.
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hi everyone. Today, wehave a really, really good
topic, at least I'm going toenjoy it, and I really hope
you're going to enjoy it too.It's around lessons learned when
(00:27):
you're scaling organizations,which is kind of one of my
favorite things to do, for lotsof reasons, because you can
learn so much through thatprocess. But So for today, I
have somebody who's done this,and I would call is, is, is, we
could, we could call you a messymiddle master. Jared Kastner,
(00:49):
hey, I might throw on the I gota messy middle masters logo that
I put on for some of these. Ithink I'm going to pop that on
for this one so everyone cancheck that out. But Derek
hasner, I will not do youjustice. Why don't you tell
everybody a little little littlebit about yourself, who you are,
and then we'll get into some ofthe nitty gritty of scaling.
Derek Kastner (01:11):
Well, I first of all wear that with pride, so
thank you. Hi. I'm DerekKastner. I'm the head of
experience at Fabrik, where ournew social space in New York
City, and it's been a joy tokind of build this, this beast,
in the last 18 months.
Indra Klavins (01:30):
Yeah, no, it's and you are, I think you were
the first, you're not the firstFabrik person I communicated
with that was Gwen, because Ijoined sight unseen, but you're
the first person I met, IRL, andI heard so many good things
about you before I joined. I'mfrom Julia, so, yeah, so why
don't you, why don't we startwith tell everyone when a little
(01:52):
bit about Fabrik, because we'regoing to be talking about that a
lot through our conversation andreferring to it and it's not,
it's not. It's it's not, yeah,please define it.
Derek Kastner (02:03):
So Fabrik is a social space, or community
space, third space, if you'refamiliar with the term, if
you're not, your first space isyour home, your second space is
your work, and your third spaceis that place in between, where
you go to meet other people, goto workshops, go to gatherings,
(02:24):
learn about other topics ofinterest, and just, you know,
meet other people. So that'swhat we're building. I there's,
you know, a big thing that wewanted to tackle was the
loneliness epidemic, post covidworld. You know, we are so
isolated, even though we aremore connected than ever through
(02:45):
our devices, social media, butwe're not connecting the same
way face to face as we used to.And with that, there's a ton of
vacant real estate everywhere,especially in New York City,
that is just collecting dust.And how do we at both of those
things at the same time? How dowe go into a space, breathe new
(03:07):
life into it, and then getpeople in there, sharing their
ideas, sharing their interests,meeting others. So that is kind
of the quick and dirty of
Indra Klavins (03:17):
it. That's the quick and dirty of it. And it's,
you know, when people I workedat we work, and so I know what a
co worker, a true like, what'sme, a hardcore, stereotypical co
working spaces. This is sodifferent than that, because so
the space in Tribeca open, Mayof 2024 if I'm remembering
correctly, yeah, May of 2024 sonot all that long ago, and one
(03:42):
of the first cohorts of people,the goal was to attract
community builders. So it was acommunity for community
builders. I remember thatphrasing an awful lot. And so,
you know what's it's very meta.And you know, it's so you're,
(04:02):
you're doing things when you'rethinking about scaling culture.
Because from then, like it was,it was Gwen Jacqueline, you. So
there were three of you, really,that were, like, pulling all
this together. And since then,it's grown to, what, 1015,
people, not all full time,right?
Derek Kastner (04:22):
Yeah. I mean, we have, I believe, eight or so
full time employees, and then ahandful of part time employees
who are here supporting in theevenings. We have gatherings
past five, yes,
Indra Klavins (04:32):
which is huge, if you think about that, that's
like a year and a half of, like,massive scaling. That's, you
know, that's a version of theBlitz scaling term, right? You
know, so just that hyper growthof growing year over year. So
not only you're scaling thatculture, but because your
business is in the business ofbuilding community, poor
(04:54):
community builds so like it'sit's cascading, like, you can
just imagine the ripples growingof the. Impact of this of you
and and the impact that you canhave. So not only are you
scaling culture for you know,the people that are working
there, but you're scalingculture for everyone else to an
awful lot. But let's start withyou know, some of the first
(05:16):
things that you did in helpingto establish what the culture
was to help to and then figuringout how that grows. But like,
when, like, let's say the earlydays. Like, let's say the three,
first three ish, three to sixmonths. Like, establishing that
culture, defining that cultureas it was, all still coming
(05:38):
together. What you're you'rebuilding the plane while you're
flying it, right? There's thatmetaphor, yep.
Derek Kastner (05:43):
I think this space kind of lives in a massive
gray area for people. So as youwere saying, we're not a co
working space, but people willsometimes come in here and be
like, Oh, great, I'll use it asmy co working space. I am very
straightforward with them. Ifyou are planning on joining
Fabrik to be your nine to fiveco working space, Monday through
(06:05):
Friday. You will not be happy,no, because that is not what
we're building you. We want ourmembers, and we want people in
space talking to each other andspending lunch together and
engaging with each other andlearning about each other,
making new friends. That is whatthis space is for. This space is
to host gatherings. And so wewere really, really fortunate
(06:27):
with our early founding members,yourself included, who were just
people that were excited bythat. Yes, of course, you were
going to come here and work somedays, but other days you were
going to come here and host agathering. Other days you were
just coming here to read a book.Other days you were taking a
lunch meeting here. And I thinkall of those founding members
(06:49):
kind of really set the tone of,we want this space to be happy
and healthy, and that justpermeated with everyone who
eventually joined this space.And you know, I always say I
don't know how we found all ofthe best people in New York to
join Fabrik because, and I hearit to this day, when people come
in here, they're like, Why iseveryone so nice here? And it
(07:12):
just goes back to thefundamental of people are
excited to meet others. They'reexcited to make new friends and
learn new skills and learn aboutnew topics and share their
interests. And I think that haskind of been the backbone that
has supported Fabrik as it's grown.
Indra Klavins (07:29):
Yeah, I mean, as a member, I mean, I just had an
interaction with Julia, who nowmanages the day to day at
Tribeca, like she and I had aback and forth around something.
And what I said was somethingthat Jacqueline, the CEO, often
says, it is an extension. It's adifferent version my living
room. When people watch thevideo, they get to see my
little, real living room. But itis to me, I have this
(07:53):
protectiveness, right? I thinkthat all of us who are at the
core and the people who arelonger term members, whether
they're part of the founding 50or came afterwards. We're all
very protective of this culture,you know. And slight confession,
slight confession, I'm going togive to everyone. So I've
recorded this episode twice now.This is our second one with
(08:13):
Derek. He was, he was, sadly, soyou may have heard the one with
Nancy, because I think that onewill be out before the one with
Derek. So I had to, like, I hadnail snafus. So I know some of
this ahead of time, so a littleleading the witness. But you
know that I'll do it from thelens of myself. So I remember
things coming out, likegathering guides. I remember a
(08:34):
lot of different rules andguidelines that you you're the
one who created these things,right? Like, I'm wearing my I
get stuff done sweatshirt inhonor of Derek today, because
he's a get stuff done. Or,right? Not only is he a get
stuff done or he's a person whois the glue. And you know,
people who are glue, when theywant to not go completely, like,
(08:55):
get pulled in every possibledirection they are, they will
lean into the creation ofartifacts and documents and
things that can live on. So tellme a little bit more about those
pieces of the puzzle. Yeah.
Derek Kastner (09:07):
I mean, that is honestly the biggest reason why
I enjoy these smaller scaleprojects or new companies, is
because you can just jump infully and fit in wherever you're
needed. So, you know, it's twoparts. There were spaces that we
were entering that had beencollecting dust for years, and
(09:28):
we wanted to come in veryquickly, breathe new life into
them, take what was there,repurpose it, bring in new
furniture, but do it veryquickly, so that we could just
get the space open. So there'san element of, you know, design
and space. And I remember thefirst time I came into the
(09:48):
Tribeca space, I opened one ofthe doors, and I was like, This
room looks like Les Mis there'sa barricade in here. What is
going on? I. And so I spent thatmorning pulling out all of these
benches and these chairs thatwere just piled up to the
ceiling. Oh, I can guess whatroom that was, yeah. And right
(10:10):
behind it was a recording booth.And I went, did anyone know that
we had a recording booth inhere? And nope, but we rolled
with it. Earlier this week, Iwas in DUMBO hanging sound
panels because we wanted to kindof dampen the sound and make it
a little more cozy. You know,there's an ability to dive in
(10:32):
and kind of create the spacethat you want to build and the
space that you want to create.But with that, you know, you
have to be very adamant aboutkind of the rules and the
regulations of the space itself.So, like you said, we built a
gathering guide that was bestpractices on how to host in
(10:53):
space. You know, some people whowere coming in here have hosted
all over the city. Do itnightly, and they can come in
somewhere, and they do it likethe back of their hand. They
Yep, they are good, and theyhead on to the next thing, and
they're pros. There are otherpeople who are just starting
(11:15):
out, and that's like, who wewanted to be mindful of too. We
want to support those people whoare just starting out. So that
guide was built so that thosepeople had a resource to go from
zero to 100 and we have ourmember Guide, which is kind of,
how are you using the space ourterms and conditions. You know,
(11:37):
internally, I built our Fabrikwiki, so that's our just
internal resource ofinformation, training, guides,
policies for internal staff. Youknow, all of that is changing
every single day and sometimeschanging drastically week over
week. But that's also theexciting part, you know, as you
(11:58):
said it, and then you canquickly play and then see what
works. If something's notworking, completely pivot and
try something else out,
Indra Klavins (12:07):
but you're writing it down. And that's
there are so many so you hit ona whole bunch of different
things. But because in startuplife, startup life is not for
everyone, and there's differentstages of the startup, right?
You know what? I I'm good atstartup life, from like a, b to
c, round of funding, at least,maturity wise, for whatever that
means. I can go into that inanother episode, and I'll
(12:29):
probably drop something into theglossary so people know a little
bit about that. But like, nomatter what stage you are in a
startup or an early stageorganization or early stage
team, even within an enterprise,like sometimes people are so
focused on like, I need to do. Ineed to do. I need to hustle
right, barring my WeWorkterminology, which drives me
crazy, but it is a good word.Sometimes you're so busy trying
(12:50):
to get the thing done that youdon't take the time to write it
down. But there's so much valuein writing it down as you go,
you know, because bunch ofthings like folklore, because
too many startups focus onfolklore, like just everything
is word of mouth, everything isword of mouth, and that that
(13:13):
doesn't allow for theconsistency. But what, what I've
found in Lisa documents thatI've been privy to is it's a
good set of guardrails, right?So that person who has done it a
gazillion times, I'll chooseRuthie this time, right? Who's
done it a gazillion times, ifshe decides that she's not this
kind of person, but she wants todo something completely wacky,
(13:33):
she can look at me like, okay,that's outside of the
guardrails. I'm not going to gothat route. That's not going to
fit here, right? But if you arethat new person, you have that
that guardrail to hold on to,right, and it's just, it's a
beautiful way of blending, likesupporting that spectrum of
experience.
Derek Kastner (13:52):
Yeah, and I've worked in companies before where
I've had to build them after thefact, and it is so much harder,
because then you're wreckingyour brain of what are those
fall details that I know I'mmissing, but I can't think of
them in this moment, or wherewere we six months ago? Can I go
back to where we were six monthsago and have a reference point
(14:15):
of what was working and what wechanged and why we changed it?
Playing catch up is not a game Iwant to play. So you know, when
I first joined Fabrik, before weeven opened this space, I knew
from the get go, everything hadto be written down, yeah,
everything had to be put onpaper. It didn't matter if it
was changing in five days. I hadto know where we were at that
(14:39):
moment so that we could build tothe next.
Indra Klavins (14:43):
It's because the brain can trick itself, right if
you don't write it down and likeyou're just saying, it gives you
such a it's so funny. Earlierthis week, I don't know why I
started, actually, do you know Istarted digging for old, old,
old resumes? So I went to myyahoo email, I'm like, I typed
in the word RESUME. I'm like,how far back can I go? Found
something with my most recentjob, starting in 2002 I was
(15:05):
like, and what I did with thisis I took my resume and I fed it
into chat GPT, who knows mepretty well. I'm like, Hey, old
resume. Any thoughts on theperson I was and where I am now?
And gave me a lovely thing.That's, I don't want to digress
into that too far, but, like,without that, but the same thing
with your documentation. That'swhy I'm bringing it up. When you
(15:26):
have that reference point of thething that you did, you can
actually see how far you'vecome, which is pretty
remarkable, like, what you'vedone in the time in this year
and a half ish, right? It's alittle bit more than that, but,
like, it's the better part oftwo years, is a phrase I
learned, like, I'm going tointroduce You've done so much,
(15:47):
and you can see exactly how faryou've grown, which is, kudos to
you. Kudos to you. Because notonly are you scaling so you've
gone from one location inTribeca, there's another
location in DUMBO, there areteam members who are like, this
is an IRL space, but some of theteam members are distributed for
very strategic reasons, right?How do you, how have you? Let's
(16:10):
talk a little bit aboutonboarding those new people and
getting them. Not the perfectword, but Indra nated, or, you
know, introduced into it soundsso heavy. It sounds like I can't
think of another one off the topof my head. But tell me more
about that.
Derek Kastner (16:28):
I I've done a lot of onboarding yes in my very
short career, yes, and a lotwhen it comes to training and
development, and I always goback to it requires a steady
hand and a lot of veryintentional one on one time,
which in a startup, and that canbe a little difficult, because,
(16:50):
you know, you're juggling Xamount of projects at all times,
and you're trying to finish andBuild and do the next thing so
you can get to the next phase.How do you split your time? So
you can just shut your computerand be really intentionally one
on one with one person to makesure that they are up to speed
(17:15):
on something that is moving atlight speed. But that kind of
goes back to the principles ofFabrik of, How are you engaging
with the people that aredirectly in front of you, face
to face. It takes time. It takesa lot of effort. It takes being
really intentional andunderstanding who someone is,
(17:39):
what their quirks are, how theirbrain works, where they want to
go in their career, what theybring to the table, what areas
are areas that they mightstruggle in, or what are the
areas that they don't feel asconfident in? How do you take
all of that and navigate each ofthose points for each specific
(18:04):
person so that they feel readyand aligned and ready to go.
That takes time. It does
Indra Klavins (18:10):
take time, like the spectrum of thoughts that I
have right now. So there are fartoo many organizations that
don't do a great job ofonboarding folks right. They're
like, there's the wiki. Read thewiki. It says, everything, okay,
everyone has different learningstyles, which you're very
conscious of, from the answerthat you just gave or the
(18:31):
explanation you just gave. Sobut let's assume that that's the
case. There's so much nuance andcontext that doesn't happen and
it de personalizes theexperience, because we are
humans, working with otherhumans like you outlined so much
that like which is why you'resuch an exceptional leader and
human being. Like you want tosee the person for who they are.
(18:52):
You want to understand theirwants, needs and desires. You
want to support them. You wantto figure out how they can best
align with Fabrik's mission andits work so that, like, all
boats can float. So like that isso the first time that you and I
are supposed to do somethingtogether. So we've talked about
the second time I was supposedto do something together, and
(19:14):
technology got in the way. Butthe first time that we got
life's life in has got in theway. You're going to be a panel
member on for for discussing theglue work, right? Your answer
just now just demonstrated whyyou are such good glue, because
you're paying attention to allof those things. And not
everyone has the facility to doall of that, but they might.
(19:35):
They should be able to do someof it, do the things that are
available to them,
Derek Kastner (19:41):
and I will say, I don't always do it well. I am
one person, and sometimes I missthe mark. And it's important to
know that, you know, there aretimes that it's just going to
happen and things are going tofall through the cracks, or some
days you show up and you justaren't your best. And that is.
That's okay, because I know forme, I am, I am like, I gotta get
(20:04):
it right. Everything has to becorrect. I want to make sure
everyone knows everything, andthey're good to go. They feel
supported, and they have all theanswers, and I'm there for
everyone whenever they needthat's not possible. That is
just no one is able to do that.
Indra Klavins (20:20):
No one is able to do that. No,
Derek Kastner (20:23):
no, but like, so it's yeah,
Indra Klavins (20:26):
no, go ahead. I always say I do what I can when
I can. When somebody sayssomething like that to me, I'm
like, I'm like, I'm justtomorrow, I'll be worse. But
like, but the I promise you Iwouldn't say. I also say I make
new mistakes every single day. Itry not to repeat the same old
ones, because that's
Derek Kastner (20:43):
so boring. But it's, it is, I'm gonna start
using that.
Indra Klavins (20:49):
It is, please, please. That's gonna be a
sticker someday, or a t shirt ora sweatshirt. Shout out to messy
middle merch.com anyway. But youknow it is. But the failures,
like, the failures are where,and everyone says this, the
failures are where the goodstuff comes from, whether
they're, you know, like smalllearnings or, like, small
(21:09):
failures or big failures orwhatever. And failure is such a
scary word, but I love the factthat you were just talking about
your perfectionism. We just hadthe episode that I dropped when
I couldn't drop. Our episode wasabout perfectionism. It is
something that is so so, youknow, indoctrinated into us from
grade school, like, You got toget it perfect. You got to have
(21:32):
the 100. You have to fill in theeven, the way that we filled in
the dots on those, those thoseScantron sheets, right? You
know, like, had to be perfect,right? We practice everything be
perfect. Like, but you justtalked about, like, can you
touch a little bit on yourjourney of, like, the failed
perfectionism, or, you know,letting go of that
perfectionism, like, what'swork, what hasn't?
Derek Kastner (21:51):
Yeah, I mean, it's, it's been a fun and
interesting road navigatingthat. I mean, thinking back, I
grew up doing theater anddancing, and so everything is
hit your mark. Be online. Do hitthe note, do the thing. And I
think that kind of cementedmentality. Also, you know,
(22:14):
wanting to be a high achiever,being in AP classes and like
wanting to see, you know,success in that regard, I think
all of those things werewonderful in setting a
foundation for, you know,wanting to succeed. But if you
let it go too far, it can go toofar in that direction. You know,
(22:37):
I, at 26 was working withJacqueline, our CEO, a Fabrik
for a different company. And Iwas burning oil all ends was
just going too in on everything.Was working too hard in every
regard. And at 26 gushing goals,and I was laid out in my bed,
was laid out in my bed for overa week, and my body just
(23:02):
completely shut down. And it wasa level of exhaustion that I
have never felt in my life, andthat for me, was a massive wake
up call, because, you know, it'ssilly that something like that
takes it for you to realize. Butit was that moment for me where
(23:23):
I was like, I cannot continue towork like this. I can't push
myself in every field, ineverything I want to do in my
life. I have to give myselfgrace. Yeah? So since then, it's
been better. I will say somedays are better than others,
but, you know, I think it'simportant to have a level of
(23:47):
drive and excitement about whatyou're doing, because it shows
that you care and shows that youwant it to succeed and that you
love it. Yeah, something toalways navigate, yeah.
Indra Klavins (24:02):
I mean, it's a, I think it's a, just like
everything else in life, theterminology that's helped Well,
let me rewind Indra, theterminology that's helped me
later in my life than in, let'ssay, my early years, has been
thinking of life as a practice,thinking of life as a series of
experiments. And that's helpedme exercise my letting go muscle
(24:23):
in all forums, forums formats,whatever, it's hard, it's hard
so, and I think that that'sprobably, I imagine, that's
resonant for most everyone,because the our listenership
tends to be doers, like they'rethey are the get stuff done.
Ers. They are the people whoare, you know, just just, they
are the people who are the glue,and we tend to put ourselves
(24:46):
later on the list thaneverything else and everyone
else. So, yeah, so we've coveredan awful lot of territory. Is
there anything that you would.Love to add to the story share
you know, or you know, or ifthere's something that's a bit
of inspiration, that's ourtouchstone for you, that you use
(25:09):
as you're working through a lotof the things around scaling or
lessons learned. I mean, theinvitation is open. Yeah, I
think
Derek Kastner (25:16):
the biggest thing that I've learned and something
that I always keep in the backof my mind is, don't be afraid
to try, because the worst thingthat happens is that it doesn't
work, and you pivot. Yeah, andwe pivoted many times in our 18
months. We recently just changedwhat our memberships look like.
(25:40):
You know, that is a pinnacle ofwhat Fabrik is, and kind of a
cornerstone of what this companyis, and we changed it, and it's
okay. You'll test things,they'll work. That's great.
You'll test things, they'll befine. You can make them better.
You'll test things. They'llfail. All learnings. Don't be
(26:04):
afraid of it.
Indra Klavins (26:05):
Yeah, I think the willingness to let go of
something that you worked sohard towards, I think what was
Jacqueline's post, I don't wasJacqueline or Gwen? It was like,
We guess what? We make therules. We get to change the
rules, right? You get to changesomething you don't want to be
willy nilly, right? Because whenyou're doing the type of work
that you do, when I do, youdon't want to, you don't want to
Flint and fleet like that drivespeople crazy. And that does not
(26:28):
create the confidence for forpeople to lead you and trust
you. And you are somebody who Ijust I truly trust, I truly
trust in a really deep way, butyou are able to to make that
change. Can you talk a littlebit about, you know, there was
the big town hall andcommunicating with members on
(26:49):
change. But can you talk alittle bit about when you're
onboarding somebody you knew whodid this organization, who's
trying really, really hard, and,like, the playbook was, you
know, X and today, it's x plusone, and they're like managing,
helping them navigate thechange. Can you talk a little
bit
Derek Kastner (27:08):
about Yeah, I think it comes back to tone. If
your tone in regard to what'schanging is, you know,
exasperated, overwhelmed, stressthat's going to be their
reaction. But if you enter theconversation with things have
changed, this is why it's allgood. How do you feel? Let's
(27:34):
move on. It relieves the stress,because everyone is resistant to
change. You know, we're humans.Don't like it, creatures of
habit. Yeah, yeah, no one does.Working for early stage
companies has forced me toembrace change more than I, you
(27:54):
know, previously did. But still,it's a hard thing to accept that
things are going to change andthat there's no they're not
going to stay consistent. So Ithink entering those
conversations with theunderstanding that it might be a
little difficult, it might be alittle creaky, it might be, you
(28:14):
know, not something you want tohear, but ultimately it's okay,
and that it's serving the bettergood or a better purpose. That's
the focus.
Indra Klavins (28:26):
And I think that that only works, or excuse me,
it works as well as it does foryou, because you lay that
foundation of that groundworkearly in the relationship. You
build trust early on. That doesit, and you understand and you
recognize the fact that the timeinvestment in helping that
person navigate that change isgoing to pay dividends in the
(28:49):
long run. It keeps them fromspiraling. It gets them on
track. It gets things movingforward much more quickly, if
you then, if you hadn't takenthe time to talk,
Derek Kastner (28:59):
yeah, and I want to hire for the long term. I
want people who are here thatare learning the ropes, that are
learning the day to dayoperations, that are excited by
it, and then we get to pull ontheir special skills or their
area of expertise and reallyfunnel them into something
specific. You know, that's thegoal with anyone that you hire
(29:21):
in an early stage company isthat they get brought on, they
get excited, and then they canbring their specialty to the
table, and you get to highlightit, and then they're there
forever, and they're supportingyou in the long term. But you
know, that's the goal
Indra Klavins (29:35):
I love, that I feel like we have another
episode on identifying the righttalent for you, or maybe a panel
discussion on it, or whatever,because that's a whole Pandora's
box that I could totally like.I'm so tempted to jump right
into it because I like, oh,because it is, it is hard, and
it's also, it also speaks tosomething that I've been working
on. Again, I think this is adifferent conversation, but to
(29:59):
how. Do you pull talent along asthe organize? How do you help
the talent evolve as theorganization evolves? Because
what you need, what you needed12 months ago, is not what you
need now, and how do you helpthem grow with it? Different
topic. If you're interested,maybe we can do a topic on that
somewhere, in some format. ButDerek, you are one of the first
people when I was floating theidea of the podcast. Who said to
(30:21):
me, you know, you asked me, Howlong? How long are your
episodes? And I said, 30minutes. He goes. Thank
goodness. I want and then theother thing that you said to me
is, you jump right in. You don'ttell me about, you know your
coffee. I know my audience. Wedon't have the time like not
that we're not interested inhearing about someone's coffee.
But that's more of a one on oneconversation than everybody in
(30:42):
the world wanting to know. Andso with that in mind, I just
want to thank you. I want tothank you for this rich, rich,
rich conversation. I want tothank you for helping me learn
from my mistakes, of mytechnology snafus, and for being
so supportive me in general, inlife. You are an amazing human
being. I'm tremendously gratefulto have you here. I'm going to
(31:03):
drop a bunch of notes. I'm goingto make sure your LinkedIn
profile and everything is is inthere, and if you want to drop
anything else in the show notes.But thank you. Thank you. I know
that our listeners are going toget something really good out of
this, and I hope that they joinus next time when we cover
another topic from the messymiddle, Bye, everyone. Bye.
(31:28):
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle. Word of
mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
(31:49):
at the messy middle matters.com,or in the show notes. Thank you
for joining us on this journey,this work is better when we do
it together. Until next timeyou.
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