December 10, 2025 • 37 mins
In this conversation, Mikki and Indra explore the complexities of navigating career changes and the profound shifts in identity that accompany them. They discuss the importance of humility, community support, and vulnerability during transitions, emphasizing the need to redefine one's identity and align actions with personal values. The dialogue highlights the significance of small impacts and the ripples they create within communities, encouraging listeners to embrace change and seek connection.
Takeaways
- The job market is unpredictable, leading to frequent career changes.
- Identity can shift significantly when changing roles or companies.
- Experiential design and community engagement can be fulfilling career paths.
- Humility is essential when starting anew in a different field.
- Community support plays a crucial role during transitions.
- Vulnerability can lead to deeper connections and support.
- Redefining one's identity is a journey that requires self-reflection.
- Embracing change can lead to personal growth and new opportunities.
- It's important to align actions with personal values.
- Every small impact can create ripples in the community.
Useful Links
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch:messymiddlemerch.com
- The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
- Mikki on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/micaelahoffman/
- Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Mikki Hoffman (00:00):
So the humility of just saying like, I don't
know, and relearning that.
Indra Klavins (00:05):
And there's power in saying I don't know. There's
power in it. You have to do itskillfully. You can't resolve Oh
no, like, like, but if you sayit with like, Hey, I don't know,
give me, I will figure it out.But can you give me a little bit
of a sense of what it is, orwhatever is? There's a way
Mikki Hoffman (00:18):
to do it. There is. I heard this once that true
experts are so confident in whatthey know that they're admitting
what they don't know.
Indra Klavins (00:33):
Hi, I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hi everyone Today,we're talking about something
that is probably top of mind fora lot of folks, because the job
market is so darn wacky, wherepeople are changing careers,
(00:53):
they're changing roles, they'rechanging companies, they're
changing they're changing somany different things, and even
even if you do stay within thesame craft, or even if you stay
within the same company, whatsomething that no one talks
about, or rarely do people talkabout, is how much your identity
(01:14):
shifts like what works for youin one place totally may not
work in another place for somany reasons, and today I have
Mickey joining me for theconversation. And so this, this
topic, spurred up from like awe're just, we were just jamming
and talking about so manydifferent things, and this
showed up. So I am so grateful.Me too. Me too. Thank you for
(01:35):
having me. Well, before we diginto the content, why don't you
tell everybody a little bitabout yourself, who would love
this question? It feels like ajob interview. Cool.
Mikki Hoffman (01:45):
So I'm Mickey. I was having a conversation
recently with someone andrealized that, like, the core of
me is just an excitable,energetic person, and that's
kind of nice. It manifestsitself in all kinds of different
ways throughout my life. Ireally love people, and I've
just like found this to besomething that I'm pursuing more
now. I'm quite creative. I am anartist and drummer, and I think
(02:12):
that what I've landed on mostrecently, which I think we're
going to talk about, like thecareer change into it, is
working with in real lifeexperiences, experiential design
events, and how that intersectswith live theater or art
installations as well. So that'sa little bit about what I'm
doing now. But I was not thisperson for very long. Have not
(02:34):
been
Indra Klavins (02:35):
No, we're just talking about that offer in a
completely different context.Before we started recording,
yeah, yeah, you were giving mefeedback on my LinkedIn profile.
Requested feedback. I wasn'tgiving unsolicited. It was
requested,
Mikki Hoffman (02:46):
absolutely was, absolutely was and well
received, and I'm grateful forit, but it did highlight how
much I changed in the last year,because it's so corporate, you
know, so much. Yeah, that'slike, who I was. I was this
corporate person, yeah, whocould speak the speak and walk
the walk, and how to put on ablazer and show up in a board
room meeting? Yeah, you know.And I sort of had this moment
(03:11):
when I actually visit a meowWolf. Bizarrely enough, okay,
it's an immersive art exhibit,yeah. And totally changed my
life. I was like,
Indra Klavins (03:20):
Yeah, Wolf, is that? Remind me? Like, I've
heard of it. I was just gonna isthat the thing, like in Las
Vegas, where they have likethis, the stores that are not
stores, but might be and youwind up in, like, walking into
the freezer, not a freezer,okay? Literally, it's that kind
of place. Okay. I will makesure. I need to give myself a
reminder to add that, a link tothat in the show notes, because
if people haven't seen anyone'svideos on social or haven't
(03:42):
lived it like it's hard toreally explain that thing.
Mikki Hoffman (03:44):
It's impossible unless you experience it
firsthand. And they're openingone in New York.
Indra Klavins (03:49):
Ooh, nice. Okay, so, so where you're in meow,
Wolf, what was your you said youhad a revelation there?
Mikki Hoffman (03:54):
Totally. I just, I felt like I was transported to
another world, okay? And foundthis very childlike play and
joy. Yeah, that's something thatwe all stray from sometimes, and
we begin to identify as adultswhich don't play. We don't do
(04:14):
that. We're very serious.
Indra Klavins (04:16):
We're serious business people with a Z
exactly, and we
Mikki Hoffman (04:19):
earn money and we live and we survive and we buy
insurance. You know what I mean?
Indra Klavins (04:24):
So, and that's really like, anchored in our
careers and our roles. Like alot of people identify with
their titles, a lot of peopleidentify with their roles. A lot
of people identify, especiallythe high achieving folks, as
being that expert that peoplecan turn to all the time. Oh, I
loved that, right? It feels sogood. Yes, it feels so good.
Mikki Hoffman (04:47):
My identity was definitely built around it.
Yeah, I wanted to be smart. Iwanted to be respected. Yeah,
any certification that I thoughtwould earn me more respect in my
youth, I was trying to get
Indra Klavins (04:59):
Mickey's got her. Mp her pimp, as I like to call
it, I don't, and I've beenaround the sun a few more times
than she has, and so she's goteven
Mikki Hoffman (05:07):
that one. Well, my professor in grad school
recently told me that people getcertified because they're
unqualified. And I thought thatwas so hilarious.
Indra Klavins (05:16):
Okay, okay, so flashback, and I will, I will
find it, and I'll also add itinto the show notes somewhere.
We did have an episode oncredentials and why people get
credentials. I disagree withyour professor. Okay, I don't
want I'm so glad you do, becauseI got the credentials. So I
don't want to go down thatrabbit hole, the TLDR on it too
long. Didn't read short form ofit is that credentials serve
(05:39):
different people in differentways, and some people, based on
their backgrounds or theirdemographics or whatever it
might be, need those credentialsto be taken seriously, so, among
many, many other things. Butthat's the one that, like most
often, gets overlooked. It'sjust like some people just
literally need to put PMP at theend of their things that people
Oh, they do know what they'retalking about. Oh, okay, I
(06:01):
guess, okay, or whatever, CPA orwhatever, pick your pick your
alphabet soup. But these areimportant alphabet soups. But
back to identity so jobs andbeing that expert, and turning
to something you know, andbelonging to that culture that
you came from, and now you'redoing something so totally
(06:21):
different, which is like, it'sleveraging a lot of your skills
that you've built over theyears, but it's not the same,
no. So tell me about yourtransition. So we are so what is
your goal today? So people haveheard about this place a lot of
times, on the up on the podcast,but where are we today, and
what's your role today?
Mikki Hoffman (06:37):
Okay, well, we find ourselves in the Dumbo den,
which I designed recently,because amazing. Thank you.
It's, I'm the Community Directorof Dumbo, and that is such a
weird title for me, but that'swhat I'm doing. I literally just
got back from walking aroundDumbo inviting businesses to
join us for a partnership and anevent, and I was just like
walking around thinking, Oh, myGod, my life is so cool. This is
(06:59):
actually my job right now, yeah,I had these moments of like,
pinch me, because it was notlike this. And I've found
something that is verymotivating. I get to help people
bring their ideas to life. It'stheir business or it's their
community that they're trying tobring people together with, and
I co create an experience. Andsomething I really love is being
(07:25):
in a room when people are reallypresent. And I think it's very
easy for people to be verypresent when they know there is
a start and an end to thatmoment. And it's nothing like
events. Events are such a goodway.
Indra Klavins (07:39):
It's as if you just led a book club on Priya
Parker's book. But anyway, butyou know, so like, let's rewind,
because this is really aboutthat shift from like one thing
to another, yes, yes, this is awonderful environment. Yes, you
have an incredible boss. Yes,yes, yes. People have probably
heard Derek's episode. Yes,amazing, amazing. But day one,
what did it feel like? Yeah,like walking in, like we're all
(08:03):
the new kid on day one, when westart a new role, a new project,
a new something, right?
Mikki Hoffman (08:08):
So I think really the core of what we wanted to
talk about was this shift inidentity, the grief that comes
with it. Yep, I think that'sreally under described in a lot
of these circles, the humilitythat I discovered, yep, because
really day one, it's aboutsaying, Ooh, I'm not making the
money I was making. So now myidentity feels unsafe, even
(08:33):
right, like maybe this choice Imade is leading me into a lack
of safety and security. If youassociate money that way, which
I did status, right?
Indra Klavins (08:45):
Oh, my goodness, my my Sorry to interrupt my
father. My father, I once had ajob, and I was the senior
manager of digitaltransformation and cross
functional teams, and my fatherwas like, I'm like, he was so
impressed by it. I'm like, Whatdoes my title mean? Like, I
sound so sexy. Sounds so like,good, right? But what does it
(09:08):
mean? What does it mean?
Mikki Hoffman (09:10):
Yeah, that means to you that's really all that
matters. Because, like, harshreality is, we're living our
lives with ourselves, yeah, andso if we don't like ourselves,
and this title, you know, isshallow and doesn't really mean
much to us,
Indra Klavins (09:24):
and so you're so you're having this letting go
exercise of a title that feltmore statusy,
Mikki Hoffman (09:30):
totally external validation. Yeah, I just needed
that. I wanted to be smart, Iwanted to be respected. I wanted
to be seen as smart. So I liketo joke that I majored in fear,
because I know. Thank you. Whatcan I say? I love that
Indra Klavins (09:46):
that's very honest.
Mikki Hoffman (09:48):
It was. It took me a while to realize that I did
that. But business analytics, Ihave a passion I've developed
for data and understandingnumbers and how we can answer
questions with them Sure. Youknow. So it was like, I can
remember in preschool runningaway from math class, like we
had an hour of math where myprofessor would do one plus one
(10:10):
equals two, one plus two equalsthree. And it was just so
foreign to me to understand Iwould literally hide underneath
the playscape that we had, and Icould remember her calling
Michaela, right? Because I wasrunning away from math. So to go
from that into majoring in astats, math related major, like
(10:34):
there was some serious andsubtle violence of this idea of
self improvement that I wasdriving
Indra Klavins (10:41):
towards, yeah, because that's what the world is
telling you you shouldn't do.
Mikki Hoffman (10:45):
Yeah, you can't make money as an artist. And
it's true, it's very hard tomake money, but it's not
impossible. You have to find Ithink either you're going to be,
and we could talk more about thearts, yeah, yeah, you're going
to be compromising a lot of whatthe world says you need to
value, okay, or rediscovering,you know, a way to do it through
(11:09):
work that can pay you. Yeah? SoI think that's where I've
landed, is to say that, okay, myjob is an extension of something
that I knew was more natural tome. Yeah, right. And so how can
I find a way to honor myselflike, really, it comes back to I
(11:29):
remember feeling like, Hey, I'mactually worth it. I'm worth it
like I can be happy. I can honorthe skills that I was given. If
it feels good to draw, that'sit. It feels good to draw. Just
draw like there's so much that Ilearned to put away somewhere
(11:52):
else because I didn't value itand I didn't value myself. So
putting that in front? Yeah, yougot to put that in front at some
point and say, It's okay for meto choose a different path,
because I matter to myself. I'mimportant,
Indra Klavins (12:11):
and I admire you for that, because so many people
don't do that and or if they do,put themselves first, like what?
What makes it extra special isthat you were finding a middle
path between just the groundedreality of like, we live in a
capitalist society, and we have,there's rent to pay, and there's
(12:34):
all these other things andsocietal pressures and whatever.
But then there's your heart,like the thing that feeds you.
And so, you know, letting go, soletting go of the living a life
that was more on that shouldtrack, right? The should track.
And now starting something newwith that, like your identity.
(12:55):
You were just talking about theidentity, and I'm gonna guess
that the feeling that knowingall the things that you wish
that you would know to be acommunity director here, I
didn't show up on day one.
Mikki Hoffman (13:07):
Absolutely not no. So I was feeling like, cool,
I love myself. I'm gonna gofigure this out. And then,
actually, the first foray intothis creative path was me saying
yes to any opportunity to workin any creative context. So I
was volunteering for events.That's kind of how it started.
Was like, Yes, actually, let'ssee. The first event I kind of
(13:30):
poke my head into was with acommunity, a social community
here called 57 okay, they had aHalloween party. And I was like,
why not? That sounds fun. Let mejust practice doing things that
feel fun. Yeah. And so I wentand I volunteered, and I
thought, How fun. This is cooland amazing. And then I also did
a city of Gods Festival, whichis another, like, crazy, wild,
(13:53):
huge Halloween Festival in NewYork City. And you know, at that
point you're like, staplingcurtains to a wall, yeah, and
taking out trash. And I decided,all right, this is the choice I
made. I'm gonna stick to ituntil it makes sense. And it
(14:15):
didn't make sense, and I justhad to trust that. I was like,
This is what they say you haveto do. There were days where I
panicked, you know, the storiesyou hear, you're going through a
complete economic shift, apsychological shift, an
emotional shift. This is the jobI'm doing. I was ashamed to
(14:37):
realize that I had so ingrainedin myself this idea of of status
and hierarchy, right? Really, Iknow, I know I was ashamed. I
was like, wow, I don't this isnot the value I want to hold,
but this is clearly what I'vebeen living by. Yeah, like, Why
else did I push myself into thisidea of having a. A status of a
(15:01):
job that was better or worsethan something else, like it's
just different. It's justdifferent choices we all make.
So, yeah, I was taking out thetrash, I was running for coffee,
all that stuff that you do whenyou're a beginner.
Indra Klavins (15:17):
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's have so much. And that's
one of the words that you saidearlier. And it stuck with me
when we were talking about whatwe would talk about, humility,
yeah, like there's such deeplike, no matter what level
you're at, no matter how big ofa pivot it is or not, it's just
a different role in a differentsame role, different company,
(15:37):
like the humility that you haveto have, especially in today's
market where, you know, if I, ifI rewind to the early days when
everyone was looking for acompany to work at for ever,
like, that was really the goal,right when I graduated college,
not anymore, not anymore. Andlike, I think that the youngest
(16:00):
generation, youngest generationin the workforce, is teaching us
that that's not we don't need toserve a master that doesn't
serve us right, like right andso,
Mikki Hoffman (16:13):
but also that the environment is changing all the
time, so we do have to be reallygood at reinventing ourselves.
And what I have seen and feelfirsthand about it is like this
letting go of identity thatcauses grief and the ability to
ask for help again, asking, youknow, that is like a very hard
(16:34):
thing for someone that is soindependent that has always
pushed themselves to achievesomething, you know, and and to
say, God, I, I need, I need ajob right now. Like, does
anybody have a gig I can do?Does anybody know what? Like, I
was setting up a, I was settingup an immersive art exhibit, and
(16:56):
someone asked me for an amp dropmap of, like, where the
electricity plugs needed to be.And I had no idea what that was,
chat GBT today, but also, yeah,I needed somebody to tell me
with experience of, like, whatwas this? Yeah, so the humility
of just saying, like, I don'tknow, and relearning
Indra Klavins (17:16):
that there's power and there's power in
saying I don't know, like andpeople, it's, there's power in
it. You have to do it skillful.You can't, oh no, like, like,
but if you say it with like,Hey, I don't know. Well, you
have it. Can you give me? I willfigure it out. But can you give
me a little bit of a sense ofwhat it is, or whatever is?
There's a way to
Mikki Hoffman (17:36):
do it. There is. I heard this once that true
experts are so confident in whatthey know that they're admitting
what they don't know. And it'slike on the journey to becoming
an expert, the only way you getthere is when you repeatedly
identify your blind spots andfeel okay with that all day,
Indra Klavins (17:55):
every day. And the other thing I'll say about
experts is they're usuallygenerous with their knowledge,
the confident, the trulyconfident one they don't get
keep. But which brings me to mynext question, like, what role
did community play in this I'mhearing like snippets of people
that you're leaning on, orwhatever it might be, and role
did community play in thetransition? Well, I was working
(18:18):
remotely.
Mikki Hoffman (18:19):
Okay, I had no community. Came to New York
thinking, Okay, I'm gonna findmyself like we all do, sick New
York story, right? Like New Yorkstory. And as soon as I stuck my
neck out and started meetingpeople and started seeing just
this creative hotbed of crosscollaboration and co creation.
(18:43):
And I was like, wow, yeah, whoknows? Who knows? Who knows who
let me just keep meeting peopleand finding people and seeing
who they introduced me to andgoing to another event to meet
more people. Yeah, and purelyout of curiosity, not because I
wanted to network, but justbecause I wanted to know, like,
what's happening here. This isinteresting and fun. Yeah, I
don't know where it's going.Yeah, you know, but I'm, oh, my
(19:06):
god, the trust I've had todevelop into not being that
project management planner totomorrow, like, what is coming
tomorrow? I have no clue what'scoming tomorrow. That is not the
Mickey of a year ago. Yeah? Andto be able to trust and have
faith that like these peoplealso got me now, like they know
where I'm at, I've beenvulnerable in sharing that I am
(19:28):
clueless as to what I'm doing,and all I know is I want to get
back to what feels like Joy andwhat my natural way of being is.
So where is it that I fit? Andthen, you know, there are so
many people I would have tothank for giving me a chance,
(19:54):
and I won't name them herebecause I didn't tell them that
I was going to name them on
Indra Klavins (19:59):
a podcast. But no. Know. Well, if you know, you
know, if you know, you know,
Mikki Hoffman (20:04):
you know, you were my community that made me
feel or even if I didn't knowyou, but I watched you, and I
saw you do something amazing,and have that confidence in
yourself to create boldly in anenvironment where it is so
difficult to stand out, like,everyone is such a professional
hobbyist here. You know, forreal my heart, realize that all
(20:26):
the time he's like, everybody'sa professional hobbyist, and
it's so intimidating to startfor real.
Indra Klavins (20:32):
And I won't go into my foray into trying to
take dance classes and adultsand being surrounded by Broadway
people. I'm like, this is abeginner's class. Like, what's
wrong? But anyway, classic NewYork story problem, yeah, but
you know, the other thing thatcomes to mind, like we've, we've
been talking about transitionsand humility, of that, you know,
of changing roles and all ofthat stuff. But as you're
(20:54):
sitting here talking, I imaginethat there are people who are
still, are lucky enough to bestill in the role they love, the
role life is great, you know,and it's moving at a company
that they enjoy, but the worldaround them is changing, like
that whole unser like, I thinkthat even people who have,
quote, stability, are dealingwith a lot of the same stuff.
(21:18):
Need the humility and neitherthis and neither that because
literally, every day I turn onthe news and I'm like, What
world did I wake up to thismorning? Right? For so many
reasons, we don't need to gointo those. But like, I think
that there's something there forthose folks too.
Mikki Hoffman (21:32):
I hope so. I would say that if there's a
thread, a through line, thenit's like, when you have
instability or ambiguity andjust feel lost, if it's by
choice or by circumstance, yeah,figuring out how to spend some
(21:53):
time with yourself to understandthe source of that, because I
think it's so important to Knowyourself, understand your fears,
right? And then look around youto find that person you do trust
to walk alongside of you andsay, Hey, I've been there where
I am there now, right? Andthat's where the community piece
(22:14):
comes in to say, we're going toget through this together. Hey,
here's an idea you can try.Maybe it resonates with you.
Maybe not. Yeah, but, man,getting comfortable with
ambiguity, it's not somethingthat we're good at. We want to
survive, so we need to know yesor no, black or white, yeah?
Indra Klavins (22:30):
Well, that's the human nature of us. Like that is
our reptilian brains that wantto that deals with the fight or
flight or whatever, you know?Like, there is that, yeah? But
you know the one thing, and I'mcurious to know your thoughts on
this. So seeking community,sometimes it's easier to seek
community and get support frompeople you know well, and
(22:54):
sometimes it's easier to getsupport and community from
people that are those looseconnections that you may not
know as well, right? Becausethere is, and I have my I have
my daydreams. I'm going to putit out into the universe. I have
the daydreams of creatingsomething called the messy
middle movement, yes, and withlike community where, where,
where people can get connectedinto like pods of folks who are
(23:17):
not necessarily their day to dayconnections and get real
feedback, of, like, I've beenthere, or like, Oh, I'm dealing
with the same thing too. Andthey're not your colleague.
They're not your someone. It'snot there's somebody who doesn't
have a stake in the game of youroutcome, other than they are a
human being who wants to supportanother human being. Like,
right? Oh, let me show you whatI did. You know, kind of thing,
(23:38):
like, so, but like, and, orsometimes you really need the
someone who's really entrenchedin the thing with you, and it's
easier to go to them like,that's interesting. Your
experience? Was it like newconnections? Was it existing
connections? Was it like acombo?
Mikki Hoffman (23:53):
That's a great question. So I know this
psychological phenomena, yeah,where you will open up more to a
stranger than someone you know,sure, right? And that's also why
sometimes Podcasts can become sowildly vulnerable, because we're
having this conversation in asafe space, but maybe we're kind
(24:14):
of strangers. We're a little bitfar removed, so you have no
expectation of me, right?There's no identity I have to
meet to be with you, right? Andthis is where I think, when we
do redefine ourselves, if we arelooking for a complete shift in
identity, then yes, it isimportant to be around people
(24:35):
who do not know you. I do thinkthat's very true. It's scarier,
but it's also freeing, because,Hi, I'm Mickey, I get to
redefine myself in thisconversation right now, right,
right, going into spaces alone.I I personally have always done
(24:58):
that so it. It's hard for me torecommend it to someone that
finds that more challenging,right? Sure, maybe dealing with
different sort of anxiety orintroversion, but I have just
always been like, let me dive inand see what this is about.
Yeah, even so recognizing thatwho I become and who I want to
(25:20):
be as a reflection of where I'maround a bit, I think testing
does this fit? It's like, it'slike a costume. It's like an
outfit. You know, try it on forsize. Literally, try it on for
size. I'm constantlyexperimenting, and I feel like
we're all constantly changing.So if you need support from a
place of fear and encouragement,because someone has seen you
(25:43):
succeed before. Someone has seenyou overcome something difficult
before. Go to the people youknow. But if you're trying to
figure out, all right, what do Ilike? Who am I actually? Then go
to somebody new and be likethat. Let me just play here.
What's the risk, especially inNew York, what's the risk if
you're some wild, goofy personthat you don't like,
Indra Klavins (26:04):
I may not see those people. I mean, either I
run into people in New York moreoften than people might think,
but like the odds of me findingthat stranger again, solo,
Mikki Hoffman (26:14):
solo, so be that person. Yeah, dare like, if
it's, if it's, I'm gonnasuddenly put on my hat of being
an amazing conversationalist.Yeah, like convince yourself
that you're that person walk inthe room and just watch yourself
have amazing conversations. Orif you say, You know what, I'm
gonna go to this puppet okay, Iwent to a puppet show. I went
(26:34):
alone to a puppet show, nicewith rubella. I don't know if
you've heard rubellad, but it'sanother amazing community. Here.
They do some kind of undergroundmeetups and parties and things.
Oh my god. There was a puppetshow this wild comedian that
they had gotten out from LA andsomeone hands me a puppet, a
sock puppet. I haven't playedwith a sock puppet since maybe
(26:54):
five years old. I love that.Turns out this guy brought a bag
of sock puppets to hand out tothe entire audience so we could
all have sock puppetconversations with each other. I
mean, you can't make this. Can'tdo
Indra Klavins (27:06):
that in every environment, but that sounds
like so much fun.
Mikki Hoffman (27:10):
It was so much fun. It was so goofy. And there
was this voice in my head thatwas like, oh my god, this is
weird. Like, what are we doing?I'm like, supposed to be mature
and older and better than this.And then this other part of me
was like, No, I want to playwith the sock puppet and beat
people and say hi and pokesomeone on the shoulder and do a
goofy voice. And it's like,okay, so I could judge myself,
(27:30):
and I could be embarrassed bythat, yeah. Or I could just play
and have fun and share thisexperience and someone else
happened. See what happens. Ilove it or hate it. You don't
know until you try it on.
Indra Klavins (27:38):
I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love
it. And you know, you you'veincluded things that are like
serious examples, like we'refiguring out professionally or
figuring out personally, likeyou've got lots of different
ways. And what I'll say, iffolks are looking for something,
we do have an episode withAmanda from not too long ago
about networking without theact. I'll try and drop that into
the show notes too, because it'snot and networking, practicing
(28:02):
the networking skills comes inso many different ways, and you
don't know who you're going torun into, where, right, how,
what that's going to lead to thefact that you're going to
discover that using us. Now, I'mplaying soft puppets for those
so like, you never know like,and I could just imagine myself
if I had been at that event andI'd felt that moment of freedom
(28:23):
that, like, even in myimagination, sometimes I'm like,
Okay, I'm like, Indra, pull outyour sock puppet, not literally,
but like, tap that person on theshoulder and see what happens.
Like, you don't know what skillsyou're going to learn that will
help you discover the thing thatwill be really useful for you to
navigate the transition plan forthe transition, whatever it
might be, and have that and,yeah, yeah, and find that new
(28:44):
identity, because we're beingchallenged to be new every day.
These days, it is a wild worldwith AI and everything else, oh
my gosh, everything else, forsure. I love it. I love it. So,
redefining your value, findingyour community, you know, being
gracious to yourself, havingcuriosity, like we've covered
(29:06):
such a broad breath, any otherthoughts or things that, like we
haven't touched on that you'relike, oh, I want to talk about
that and share that experience.If something comes to you,
great. If it doesn't,
Mikki Hoffman (29:15):
that's fine. I just think about these moments
where I was taking out trash,like, literally, I know I
mentioned that before, but like,these were some of the most
humbling moments, because yougot to start, and they say you
start from the bottom, and thatvoice in my head, but you got to
start also with, I think,empathy for every part of what
(29:36):
you're trying to do. That's whyI really respect leaders that
have seen the different parts ofwhat they're trying to do. And
so when I'm receiving servicefrom someone now, because I have
been the service provider, Ijust view and feel it
differently, like we talk abouthow everybody should be a
server. I think everybody shouldknow
Indra Klavins (29:59):
what that's. At some time in the service
industry, it's humbling,
Mikki Hoffman (30:03):
the humbling, and this is the theme and the word,
and to realize that how we weretalking about this too, it's
almost as if, when you're in aprofessional career, yeah, you
are one of one. You're part ofthe creative class, right?
You're an intellectual. Yourmind is being used, and so your
(30:25):
identity is carried along withthat. Somehow you are not
actually replaceable. Your jobfunction. Might have someone
else who can do that, butthey're going to bring
themselves to that as well. Whenyou're doing something in
service, unfortunately, it's notbringing your full self. There
anything that's manual labor. Ina sense, it can be harder to
(30:49):
associate, like your personalidentity to that role. And what
I was realizing is when somebodytreated me poorly, I was taking
it so personal, it hits harder.It's harder when you've always
associated like Mickey at work.Instead of saying this person
just sees me as someone who'staking out the trash, they don't
recognize everything that I am.And that's also something that
(31:14):
made me just double down on thelevel of respect that I carry
for anyone that this person hasa full life behind whatever
activity that they are doing.Yeah, right in the manual labor,
physical labor or service likeSo being on the other side and
realizing I had to kind ofseparate my identity from my
(31:36):
work as well. Yeah, my role inthose moments was to support Be
quiet and be gone, right?
Indra Klavins (31:43):
Yeah, and it's, you know, it's not a one to one
mapping, but I'm just thinkingwhen I when I'm talking to
folks, I'm trying to think of itfrom the different angles that a
listener might listen to it, andwhat that's given me not just
like everything you said is soimportant, and it's just like,
it's, it's, it's all abouttreating humans like humans with
all sorts of respect, which isso great, but it also gave me
(32:06):
like, how you're we need tosupport each other really well,
right? If you see somebody whois in that scenario, you need
to, you need to treat them withrespect. If you see someone
who's in transition, they'reprobably freaking out a little
bit. So, like, the same type ofgrace you give to that person
who's like, who's who's livingthrough
Mikki Hoffman (32:26):
that, I need more grace. Yeah, we all need more
grace. And I want to say onemore thing. There was another
story that I think really hithard for me in this experience,
where I had a little bit of aturning point, and it was in a
conversation with someone whowas working with me, so I was
managing a venue, and they werepart of the team that came with
the event. And so, you know,we're all in service, but we're
working in different parts ofthe event. I come to find a
(32:49):
little bit about the history ofthis individual, and I won't
share it, because it's not mystory to share, but I will say I
had this like moment ofreflecting in the mirror, of
saying I have been given so muchopportunity in my life like it
was so moving to know that thisperson had no other doors to
(33:10):
turn to open or closed behindthem, and I was choosing this,
and it was heavy on my Heart tothink about the fact that I
turned away from things, and Icould also turn back to them,
right? And this person didn'thave that, and then I felt like,
(33:33):
okay, it's kind of my duty tomake sure that with what I have
i i make use of it, because itis so not an option for so many
people. And I just like, that'sthat's another point of
humility, just like the immensegratitude that like flooded me
in this moment of saying, Wow, Ican't stay here forever. I have
(33:58):
more that was put in, and I'mgoing to take that and make the
most of it. And I think there'sthis trick of the fool that will
say, like, Oh, you'reprivileged, and this was just
like all something that wasgiven to you and you have no
right to it, and you didn'tdeserve it. And I think that
that is something where if, ifanybody else had what I had,
(34:21):
they would take it and run withit and do that, right? Yeah, and
that's what we all need to dowith whatever we are given. It
is a privilege. Every gift thatwe get is a privilege. But don't
live in guilt or fear thatsomehow this isn't yours to make
use of like
Indra Klavins (34:41):
honor that, and you can bring people along,
absolutely honoring that. Like,use your privilege for for not
just yourself. Absolutely allboats can float like or as many
boats as we possibly can canfloat from
Mikki Hoffman (34:54):
that, which is why I love community. I love
that when I volunteer forsomething. When I reach out and
say, You should be here too,like, get everybody together.
There is no competition, there'sonly collaboration, right? If
you know about this, and I knowabout that and doing this, we're
(35:15):
all trying to help each other,yeah, and I think it's beautiful
space to be in that I get toplay here at fabric, like being
this connector and supporting.And it's my way of saying in a
small way, like, I don't have tochange the world, but I can
change someone's world today. Ican change the way that this
(35:38):
going back to the room, fullcircle, okay, this little room,
I redesigned it. And I was like,okay, cool. I had my tiny impact
on 10 people today, because nowthey're going to enjoy a space
more. If that's it,
Indra Klavins (35:50):
that's it. But that's something, it's
something, something. And theripples, you don't know where
they're going to go, right?
Mikki Hoffman (35:56):
And I think as I continue to pursue that, and as
anyone continues to pursue thatyou will see the opportunity to
do that, and you just have toalign your actions with your
values. And I think there'snothing more revealing about
your values than rediscoveringyour identity, redefining your
identity, and doing that withhumility. Oh, circle, bam. I was
(36:17):
like, I didn't know if I wasgonna do this podcast thing
well, but that sounded like apretty nice concluding sentence.
Indra Klavins (36:22):
Nice concluding sentence for it. I am sure that
people got something out ofthis, whether it's some advice
or feeling seen, feeling likejust grounded, whatever it might
be. Thank you for joining me.Thank you for having honored
that you trusted me to have thisconversation. Yes, and, oh,
please. And I hope that everyonejoins us next time for another
(36:45):
topic, topic from the messymiddle matters. You can
Mikki Hoffman (36:48):
do it. Do your thing. You can do it.
Indra Klavins (36:57):
If you've got some get stuff done. Is on your
team or are one who takes pridein your work. We just dropped a
brand new I get stuff donecollection in the messy middle
merch shop. You'll also find theclassics Don't make me regret
trying to be helpful and wordsmatter. They make fantastic year
end gifts. And yes, we even havegift cards. And if something's
(37:17):
running late, there's a free Iordered it, but it's not here
yet. Download. You can hand themin the meantime, check
everything out at messy middlemerch.com, and if you like this
episode, a like, share orsubscribe goes a really long way
in helping us spread the wordtill next time you.
So the humility of just saying like, I don't
know, and relearning that.
Indra Klavins (00:05):
And there's power in saying I don't know. There's
power in it. You have to do itskillfully. You can't resolve Oh
no, like, like, but if you sayit with like, Hey, I don't know,
give me, I will figure it out.But can you give me a little bit
of a sense of what it is, orwhatever is? There's a way
Mikki Hoffman (00:18):
to do it. There is. I heard this once that true
experts are so confident in whatthey know that they're admitting
what they don't know.
Indra Klavins (00:33):
Hi, I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hi everyone Today,we're talking about something
that is probably top of mind fora lot of folks, because the job
market is so darn wacky, wherepeople are changing careers,
(00:53):
they're changing roles, they'rechanging companies, they're
changing they're changing somany different things, and even
even if you do stay within thesame craft, or even if you stay
within the same company, whatsomething that no one talks
about, or rarely do people talkabout, is how much your identity
(01:14):
shifts like what works for youin one place totally may not
work in another place for somany reasons, and today I have
Mickey joining me for theconversation. And so this, this
topic, spurred up from like awe're just, we were just jamming
and talking about so manydifferent things, and this
showed up. So I am so grateful.Me too. Me too. Thank you for
(01:35):
having me. Well, before we diginto the content, why don't you
tell everybody a little bitabout yourself, who would love
this question? It feels like ajob interview. Cool.
Mikki Hoffman (01:45):
So I'm Mickey. I was having a conversation
recently with someone andrealized that, like, the core of
me is just an excitable,energetic person, and that's
kind of nice. It manifestsitself in all kinds of different
ways throughout my life. Ireally love people, and I've
just like found this to besomething that I'm pursuing more
now. I'm quite creative. I am anartist and drummer, and I think
(02:12):
that what I've landed on mostrecently, which I think we're
going to talk about, like thecareer change into it, is
working with in real lifeexperiences, experiential design
events, and how that intersectswith live theater or art
installations as well. So that'sa little bit about what I'm
doing now. But I was not thisperson for very long. Have not
(02:34):
been
Indra Klavins (02:35):
No, we're just talking about that offer in a
completely different context.Before we started recording,
yeah, yeah, you were giving mefeedback on my LinkedIn profile.
Requested feedback. I wasn'tgiving unsolicited. It was
requested,
Mikki Hoffman (02:46):
absolutely was, absolutely was and well
received, and I'm grateful forit, but it did highlight how
much I changed in the last year,because it's so corporate, you
know, so much. Yeah, that'slike, who I was. I was this
corporate person, yeah, whocould speak the speak and walk
the walk, and how to put on ablazer and show up in a board
room meeting? Yeah, you know.And I sort of had this moment
(03:11):
when I actually visit a meowWolf. Bizarrely enough, okay,
it's an immersive art exhibit,yeah. And totally changed my
life. I was like,
Indra Klavins (03:20):
Yeah, Wolf, is that? Remind me? Like, I've
heard of it. I was just gonna isthat the thing, like in Las
Vegas, where they have likethis, the stores that are not
stores, but might be and youwind up in, like, walking into
the freezer, not a freezer,okay? Literally, it's that kind
of place. Okay. I will makesure. I need to give myself a
reminder to add that, a link tothat in the show notes, because
if people haven't seen anyone'svideos on social or haven't
(03:42):
lived it like it's hard toreally explain that thing.
Mikki Hoffman (03:44):
It's impossible unless you experience it
firsthand. And they're openingone in New York.
Indra Klavins (03:49):
Ooh, nice. Okay, so, so where you're in meow,
Wolf, what was your you said youhad a revelation there?
Mikki Hoffman (03:54):
Totally. I just, I felt like I was transported to
another world, okay? And foundthis very childlike play and
joy. Yeah, that's something thatwe all stray from sometimes, and
we begin to identify as adultswhich don't play. We don't do
(04:14):
that. We're very serious.
Indra Klavins (04:16):
We're serious business people with a Z
exactly, and we
Mikki Hoffman (04:19):
earn money and we live and we survive and we buy
insurance. You know what I mean?
Indra Klavins (04:24):
So, and that's really like, anchored in our
careers and our roles. Like alot of people identify with
their titles, a lot of peopleidentify with their roles. A lot
of people identify, especiallythe high achieving folks, as
being that expert that peoplecan turn to all the time. Oh, I
loved that, right? It feels sogood. Yes, it feels so good.
Mikki Hoffman (04:47):
My identity was definitely built around it.
Yeah, I wanted to be smart. Iwanted to be respected. Yeah,
any certification that I thoughtwould earn me more respect in my
youth, I was trying to get
Indra Klavins (04:59):
Mickey's got her. Mp her pimp, as I like to call
it, I don't, and I've beenaround the sun a few more times
than she has, and so she's goteven
Mikki Hoffman (05:07):
that one. Well, my professor in grad school
recently told me that people getcertified because they're
unqualified. And I thought thatwas so hilarious.
Indra Klavins (05:16):
Okay, okay, so flashback, and I will, I will
find it, and I'll also add itinto the show notes somewhere.
We did have an episode oncredentials and why people get
credentials. I disagree withyour professor. Okay, I don't
want I'm so glad you do, becauseI got the credentials. So I
don't want to go down thatrabbit hole, the TLDR on it too
long. Didn't read short form ofit is that credentials serve
(05:39):
different people in differentways, and some people, based on
their backgrounds or theirdemographics or whatever it
might be, need those credentialsto be taken seriously, so, among
many, many other things. Butthat's the one that, like most
often, gets overlooked. It'sjust like some people just
literally need to put PMP at theend of their things that people
Oh, they do know what they'retalking about. Oh, okay, I
(06:01):
guess, okay, or whatever, CPA orwhatever, pick your pick your
alphabet soup. But these areimportant alphabet soups. But
back to identity so jobs andbeing that expert, and turning
to something you know, andbelonging to that culture that
you came from, and now you'redoing something so totally
(06:21):
different, which is like, it'sleveraging a lot of your skills
that you've built over theyears, but it's not the same,
no. So tell me about yourtransition. So we are so what is
your goal today? So people haveheard about this place a lot of
times, on the up on the podcast,but where are we today, and
what's your role today?
Mikki Hoffman (06:37):
Okay, well, we find ourselves in the Dumbo den,
which I designed recently,because amazing. Thank you.
It's, I'm the Community Directorof Dumbo, and that is such a
weird title for me, but that'swhat I'm doing. I literally just
got back from walking aroundDumbo inviting businesses to
join us for a partnership and anevent, and I was just like
walking around thinking, Oh, myGod, my life is so cool. This is
(06:59):
actually my job right now, yeah,I had these moments of like,
pinch me, because it was notlike this. And I've found
something that is verymotivating. I get to help people
bring their ideas to life. It'stheir business or it's their
community that they're trying tobring people together with, and
I co create an experience. Andsomething I really love is being
(07:25):
in a room when people are reallypresent. And I think it's very
easy for people to be verypresent when they know there is
a start and an end to thatmoment. And it's nothing like
events. Events are such a goodway.
Indra Klavins (07:39):
It's as if you just led a book club on Priya
Parker's book. But anyway, butyou know, so like, let's rewind,
because this is really aboutthat shift from like one thing
to another, yes, yes, this is awonderful environment. Yes, you
have an incredible boss. Yes,yes, yes. People have probably
heard Derek's episode. Yes,amazing, amazing. But day one,
what did it feel like? Yeah,like walking in, like we're all
(08:03):
the new kid on day one, when westart a new role, a new project,
a new something, right?
Mikki Hoffman (08:08):
So I think really the core of what we wanted to
talk about was this shift inidentity, the grief that comes
with it. Yep, I think that'sreally under described in a lot
of these circles, the humilitythat I discovered, yep, because
really day one, it's aboutsaying, Ooh, I'm not making the
money I was making. So now myidentity feels unsafe, even
(08:33):
right, like maybe this choice Imade is leading me into a lack
of safety and security. If youassociate money that way, which
I did status, right?
Indra Klavins (08:45):
Oh, my goodness, my my Sorry to interrupt my
father. My father, I once had ajob, and I was the senior
manager of digitaltransformation and cross
functional teams, and my fatherwas like, I'm like, he was so
impressed by it. I'm like, Whatdoes my title mean? Like, I
sound so sexy. Sounds so like,good, right? But what does it
(09:08):
mean? What does it mean?
Mikki Hoffman (09:10):
Yeah, that means to you that's really all that
matters. Because, like, harshreality is, we're living our
lives with ourselves, yeah, andso if we don't like ourselves,
and this title, you know, isshallow and doesn't really mean
much to us,
Indra Klavins (09:24):
and so you're so you're having this letting go
exercise of a title that feltmore statusy,
Mikki Hoffman (09:30):
totally external validation. Yeah, I just needed
that. I wanted to be smart, Iwanted to be respected. I wanted
to be seen as smart. So I liketo joke that I majored in fear,
because I know. Thank you. Whatcan I say? I love that
Indra Klavins (09:46):
that's very honest.
Mikki Hoffman (09:48):
It was. It took me a while to realize that I did
that. But business analytics, Ihave a passion I've developed
for data and understandingnumbers and how we can answer
questions with them Sure. Youknow. So it was like, I can
remember in preschool runningaway from math class, like we
had an hour of math where myprofessor would do one plus one
(10:10):
equals two, one plus two equalsthree. And it was just so
foreign to me to understand Iwould literally hide underneath
the playscape that we had, and Icould remember her calling
Michaela, right? Because I wasrunning away from math. So to go
from that into majoring in astats, math related major, like
(10:34):
there was some serious andsubtle violence of this idea of
self improvement that I wasdriving
Indra Klavins (10:41):
towards, yeah, because that's what the world is
telling you you shouldn't do.
Mikki Hoffman (10:45):
Yeah, you can't make money as an artist. And
it's true, it's very hard tomake money, but it's not
impossible. You have to find Ithink either you're going to be,
and we could talk more about thearts, yeah, yeah, you're going
to be compromising a lot of whatthe world says you need to
value, okay, or rediscovering,you know, a way to do it through
(11:09):
work that can pay you. Yeah? SoI think that's where I've
landed, is to say that, okay, myjob is an extension of something
that I knew was more natural tome. Yeah, right. And so how can
I find a way to honor myselflike, really, it comes back to I
(11:29):
remember feeling like, Hey, I'mactually worth it. I'm worth it
like I can be happy. I can honorthe skills that I was given. If
it feels good to draw, that'sit. It feels good to draw. Just
draw like there's so much that Ilearned to put away somewhere
(11:52):
else because I didn't value itand I didn't value myself. So
putting that in front? Yeah, yougot to put that in front at some
point and say, It's okay for meto choose a different path,
because I matter to myself. I'mimportant,
Indra Klavins (12:11):
and I admire you for that, because so many people
don't do that and or if they do,put themselves first, like what?
What makes it extra special isthat you were finding a middle
path between just the groundedreality of like, we live in a
capitalist society, and we have,there's rent to pay, and there's
(12:34):
all these other things andsocietal pressures and whatever.
But then there's your heart,like the thing that feeds you.
And so, you know, letting go, soletting go of the living a life
that was more on that shouldtrack, right? The should track.
And now starting something newwith that, like your identity.
(12:55):
You were just talking about theidentity, and I'm gonna guess
that the feeling that knowingall the things that you wish
that you would know to be acommunity director here, I
didn't show up on day one.
Mikki Hoffman (13:07):
Absolutely not no. So I was feeling like, cool,
I love myself. I'm gonna gofigure this out. And then,
actually, the first foray intothis creative path was me saying
yes to any opportunity to workin any creative context. So I
was volunteering for events.That's kind of how it started.
Was like, Yes, actually, let'ssee. The first event I kind of
(13:30):
poke my head into was with acommunity, a social community
here called 57 okay, they had aHalloween party. And I was like,
why not? That sounds fun. Let mejust practice doing things that
feel fun. Yeah. And so I wentand I volunteered, and I
thought, How fun. This is cooland amazing. And then I also did
a city of Gods Festival, whichis another, like, crazy, wild,
(13:53):
huge Halloween Festival in NewYork City. And you know, at that
point you're like, staplingcurtains to a wall, yeah, and
taking out trash. And I decided,all right, this is the choice I
made. I'm gonna stick to ituntil it makes sense. And it
(14:15):
didn't make sense, and I justhad to trust that. I was like,
This is what they say you haveto do. There were days where I
panicked, you know, the storiesyou hear, you're going through a
complete economic shift, apsychological shift, an
emotional shift. This is the jobI'm doing. I was ashamed to
(14:37):
realize that I had so ingrainedin myself this idea of of status
and hierarchy, right? Really, Iknow, I know I was ashamed. I
was like, wow, I don't this isnot the value I want to hold,
but this is clearly what I'vebeen living by. Yeah, like, Why
else did I push myself into thisidea of having a. A status of a
(15:01):
job that was better or worsethan something else, like it's
just different. It's justdifferent choices we all make.
So, yeah, I was taking out thetrash, I was running for coffee,
all that stuff that you do whenyou're a beginner.
Indra Klavins (15:17):
Yeah, yeah. Well, let's have so much. And that's
one of the words that you saidearlier. And it stuck with me
when we were talking about whatwe would talk about, humility,
yeah, like there's such deeplike, no matter what level
you're at, no matter how big ofa pivot it is or not, it's just
a different role in a differentsame role, different company,
(15:37):
like the humility that you haveto have, especially in today's
market where, you know, if I, ifI rewind to the early days when
everyone was looking for acompany to work at for ever,
like, that was really the goal,right when I graduated college,
not anymore, not anymore. Andlike, I think that the youngest
(16:00):
generation, youngest generationin the workforce, is teaching us
that that's not we don't need toserve a master that doesn't
serve us right, like right andso,
Mikki Hoffman (16:13):
but also that the environment is changing all the
time, so we do have to be reallygood at reinventing ourselves.
And what I have seen and feelfirsthand about it is like this
letting go of identity thatcauses grief and the ability to
ask for help again, asking, youknow, that is like a very hard
(16:34):
thing for someone that is soindependent that has always
pushed themselves to achievesomething, you know, and and to
say, God, I, I need, I need ajob right now. Like, does
anybody have a gig I can do?Does anybody know what? Like, I
was setting up a, I was settingup an immersive art exhibit, and
(16:56):
someone asked me for an amp dropmap of, like, where the
electricity plugs needed to be.And I had no idea what that was,
chat GBT today, but also, yeah,I needed somebody to tell me
with experience of, like, whatwas this? Yeah, so the humility
of just saying, like, I don'tknow, and relearning
Indra Klavins (17:16):
that there's power and there's power in
saying I don't know, like andpeople, it's, there's power in
it. You have to do it skillful.You can't, oh no, like, like,
but if you say it with like,Hey, I don't know. Well, you
have it. Can you give me? I willfigure it out. But can you give
me a little bit of a sense ofwhat it is, or whatever is?
There's a way to
Mikki Hoffman (17:36):
do it. There is. I heard this once that true
experts are so confident in whatthey know that they're admitting
what they don't know. And it'slike on the journey to becoming
an expert, the only way you getthere is when you repeatedly
identify your blind spots andfeel okay with that all day,
Indra Klavins (17:55):
every day. And the other thing I'll say about
experts is they're usuallygenerous with their knowledge,
the confident, the trulyconfident one they don't get
keep. But which brings me to mynext question, like, what role
did community play in this I'mhearing like snippets of people
that you're leaning on, orwhatever it might be, and role
did community play in thetransition? Well, I was working
(18:18):
remotely.
Mikki Hoffman (18:19):
Okay, I had no community. Came to New York
thinking, Okay, I'm gonna findmyself like we all do, sick New
York story, right? Like New Yorkstory. And as soon as I stuck my
neck out and started meetingpeople and started seeing just
this creative hotbed of crosscollaboration and co creation.
(18:43):
And I was like, wow, yeah, whoknows? Who knows? Who knows who
let me just keep meeting peopleand finding people and seeing
who they introduced me to andgoing to another event to meet
more people. Yeah, and purelyout of curiosity, not because I
wanted to network, but justbecause I wanted to know, like,
what's happening here. This isinteresting and fun. Yeah, I
don't know where it's going.Yeah, you know, but I'm, oh, my
(19:06):
god, the trust I've had todevelop into not being that
project management planner totomorrow, like, what is coming
tomorrow? I have no clue what'scoming tomorrow. That is not the
Mickey of a year ago. Yeah? Andto be able to trust and have
faith that like these peoplealso got me now, like they know
where I'm at, I've beenvulnerable in sharing that I am
(19:28):
clueless as to what I'm doing,and all I know is I want to get
back to what feels like Joy andwhat my natural way of being is.
So where is it that I fit? Andthen, you know, there are so
many people I would have tothank for giving me a chance,
(19:54):
and I won't name them herebecause I didn't tell them that
I was going to name them on
Indra Klavins (19:59):
a podcast. But no. Know. Well, if you know, you
know, if you know, you know,
Mikki Hoffman (20:04):
you know, you were my community that made me
feel or even if I didn't knowyou, but I watched you, and I
saw you do something amazing,and have that confidence in
yourself to create boldly in anenvironment where it is so
difficult to stand out, like,everyone is such a professional
hobbyist here. You know, forreal my heart, realize that all
(20:26):
the time he's like, everybody'sa professional hobbyist, and
it's so intimidating to startfor real.
Indra Klavins (20:32):
And I won't go into my foray into trying to
take dance classes and adultsand being surrounded by Broadway
people. I'm like, this is abeginner's class. Like, what's
wrong? But anyway, classic NewYork story problem, yeah, but
you know, the other thing thatcomes to mind, like we've, we've
been talking about transitionsand humility, of that, you know,
of changing roles and all ofthat stuff. But as you're
(20:54):
sitting here talking, I imaginethat there are people who are
still, are lucky enough to bestill in the role they love, the
role life is great, you know,and it's moving at a company
that they enjoy, but the worldaround them is changing, like
that whole unser like, I thinkthat even people who have,
quote, stability, are dealingwith a lot of the same stuff.
(21:18):
Need the humility and neitherthis and neither that because
literally, every day I turn onthe news and I'm like, What
world did I wake up to thismorning? Right? For so many
reasons, we don't need to gointo those. But like, I think
that there's something there forthose folks too.
Mikki Hoffman (21:32):
I hope so. I would say that if there's a
thread, a through line, thenit's like, when you have
instability or ambiguity andjust feel lost, if it's by
choice or by circumstance, yeah,figuring out how to spend some
(21:53):
time with yourself to understandthe source of that, because I
think it's so important to Knowyourself, understand your fears,
right? And then look around youto find that person you do trust
to walk alongside of you andsay, Hey, I've been there where
I am there now, right? Andthat's where the community piece
(22:14):
comes in to say, we're going toget through this together. Hey,
here's an idea you can try.Maybe it resonates with you.
Maybe not. Yeah, but, man,getting comfortable with
ambiguity, it's not somethingthat we're good at. We want to
survive, so we need to know yesor no, black or white, yeah?
Indra Klavins (22:30):
Well, that's the human nature of us. Like that is
our reptilian brains that wantto that deals with the fight or
flight or whatever, you know?Like, there is that, yeah? But
you know the one thing, and I'mcurious to know your thoughts on
this. So seeking community,sometimes it's easier to seek
community and get support frompeople you know well, and
(22:54):
sometimes it's easier to getsupport and community from
people that are those looseconnections that you may not
know as well, right? Becausethere is, and I have my I have
my daydreams. I'm going to putit out into the universe. I have
the daydreams of creatingsomething called the messy
middle movement, yes, and withlike community where, where,
where people can get connectedinto like pods of folks who are
(23:17):
not necessarily their day to dayconnections and get real
feedback, of, like, I've beenthere, or like, Oh, I'm dealing
with the same thing too. Andthey're not your colleague.
They're not your someone. It'snot there's somebody who doesn't
have a stake in the game of youroutcome, other than they are a
human being who wants to supportanother human being. Like,
right? Oh, let me show you whatI did. You know, kind of thing,
(23:38):
like, so, but like, and, orsometimes you really need the
someone who's really entrenchedin the thing with you, and it's
easier to go to them like,that's interesting. Your
experience? Was it like newconnections? Was it existing
connections? Was it like acombo?
Mikki Hoffman (23:53):
That's a great question. So I know this
psychological phenomena, yeah,where you will open up more to a
stranger than someone you know,sure, right? And that's also why
sometimes Podcasts can become sowildly vulnerable, because we're
having this conversation in asafe space, but maybe we're kind
(24:14):
of strangers. We're a little bitfar removed, so you have no
expectation of me, right?There's no identity I have to
meet to be with you, right? Andthis is where I think, when we
do redefine ourselves, if we arelooking for a complete shift in
identity, then yes, it isimportant to be around people
(24:35):
who do not know you. I do thinkthat's very true. It's scarier,
but it's also freeing, because,Hi, I'm Mickey, I get to
redefine myself in thisconversation right now, right,
right, going into spaces alone.I I personally have always done
(24:58):
that so it. It's hard for me torecommend it to someone that
finds that more challenging,right? Sure, maybe dealing with
different sort of anxiety orintroversion, but I have just
always been like, let me dive inand see what this is about.
Yeah, even so recognizing thatwho I become and who I want to
(25:20):
be as a reflection of where I'maround a bit, I think testing
does this fit? It's like, it'slike a costume. It's like an
outfit. You know, try it on forsize. Literally, try it on for
size. I'm constantlyexperimenting, and I feel like
we're all constantly changing.So if you need support from a
place of fear and encouragement,because someone has seen you
(25:43):
succeed before. Someone has seenyou overcome something difficult
before. Go to the people youknow. But if you're trying to
figure out, all right, what do Ilike? Who am I actually? Then go
to somebody new and be likethat. Let me just play here.
What's the risk, especially inNew York, what's the risk if
you're some wild, goofy personthat you don't like,
Indra Klavins (26:04):
I may not see those people. I mean, either I
run into people in New York moreoften than people might think,
but like the odds of me findingthat stranger again, solo,
Mikki Hoffman (26:14):
solo, so be that person. Yeah, dare like, if
it's, if it's, I'm gonnasuddenly put on my hat of being
an amazing conversationalist.Yeah, like convince yourself
that you're that person walk inthe room and just watch yourself
have amazing conversations. Orif you say, You know what, I'm
gonna go to this puppet okay, Iwent to a puppet show. I went
(26:34):
alone to a puppet show, nicewith rubella. I don't know if
you've heard rubellad, but it'sanother amazing community. Here.
They do some kind of undergroundmeetups and parties and things.
Oh my god. There was a puppetshow this wild comedian that
they had gotten out from LA andsomeone hands me a puppet, a
sock puppet. I haven't playedwith a sock puppet since maybe
(26:54):
five years old. I love that.Turns out this guy brought a bag
of sock puppets to hand out tothe entire audience so we could
all have sock puppetconversations with each other. I
mean, you can't make this. Can'tdo
Indra Klavins (27:06):
that in every environment, but that sounds
like so much fun.
Mikki Hoffman (27:10):
It was so much fun. It was so goofy. And there
was this voice in my head thatwas like, oh my god, this is
weird. Like, what are we doing?I'm like, supposed to be mature
and older and better than this.And then this other part of me
was like, No, I want to playwith the sock puppet and beat
people and say hi and pokesomeone on the shoulder and do a
goofy voice. And it's like,okay, so I could judge myself,
(27:30):
and I could be embarrassed bythat, yeah. Or I could just play
and have fun and share thisexperience and someone else
happened. See what happens. Ilove it or hate it. You don't
know until you try it on.
Indra Klavins (27:38):
I love it, I love it, I love it, I love it, I love
it. And you know, you you'veincluded things that are like
serious examples, like we'refiguring out professionally or
figuring out personally, likeyou've got lots of different
ways. And what I'll say, iffolks are looking for something,
we do have an episode withAmanda from not too long ago
about networking without theact. I'll try and drop that into
the show notes too, because it'snot and networking, practicing
(28:02):
the networking skills comes inso many different ways, and you
don't know who you're going torun into, where, right, how,
what that's going to lead to thefact that you're going to
discover that using us. Now, I'mplaying soft puppets for those
so like, you never know like,and I could just imagine myself
if I had been at that event andI'd felt that moment of freedom
(28:23):
that, like, even in myimagination, sometimes I'm like,
Okay, I'm like, Indra, pull outyour sock puppet, not literally,
but like, tap that person on theshoulder and see what happens.
Like, you don't know what skillsyou're going to learn that will
help you discover the thing thatwill be really useful for you to
navigate the transition plan forthe transition, whatever it
might be, and have that and,yeah, yeah, and find that new
(28:44):
identity, because we're beingchallenged to be new every day.
These days, it is a wild worldwith AI and everything else, oh
my gosh, everything else, forsure. I love it. I love it. So,
redefining your value, findingyour community, you know, being
gracious to yourself, havingcuriosity, like we've covered
(29:06):
such a broad breath, any otherthoughts or things that, like we
haven't touched on that you'relike, oh, I want to talk about
that and share that experience.If something comes to you,
great. If it doesn't,
Mikki Hoffman (29:15):
that's fine. I just think about these moments
where I was taking out trash,like, literally, I know I
mentioned that before, but like,these were some of the most
humbling moments, because yougot to start, and they say you
start from the bottom, and thatvoice in my head, but you got to
start also with, I think,empathy for every part of what
(29:36):
you're trying to do. That's whyI really respect leaders that
have seen the different parts ofwhat they're trying to do. And
so when I'm receiving servicefrom someone now, because I have
been the service provider, Ijust view and feel it
differently, like we talk abouthow everybody should be a
server. I think everybody shouldknow
Indra Klavins (29:59):
what that's. At some time in the service
industry, it's humbling,
Mikki Hoffman (30:03):
the humbling, and this is the theme and the word,
and to realize that how we weretalking about this too, it's
almost as if, when you're in aprofessional career, yeah, you
are one of one. You're part ofthe creative class, right?
You're an intellectual. Yourmind is being used, and so your
(30:25):
identity is carried along withthat. Somehow you are not
actually replaceable. Your jobfunction. Might have someone
else who can do that, butthey're going to bring
themselves to that as well. Whenyou're doing something in
service, unfortunately, it's notbringing your full self. There
anything that's manual labor. Ina sense, it can be harder to
(30:49):
associate, like your personalidentity to that role. And what
I was realizing is when somebodytreated me poorly, I was taking
it so personal, it hits harder.It's harder when you've always
associated like Mickey at work.Instead of saying this person
just sees me as someone who'staking out the trash, they don't
recognize everything that I am.And that's also something that
(31:14):
made me just double down on thelevel of respect that I carry
for anyone that this person hasa full life behind whatever
activity that they are doing.Yeah, right in the manual labor,
physical labor or service likeSo being on the other side and
realizing I had to kind ofseparate my identity from my
(31:36):
work as well. Yeah, my role inthose moments was to support Be
quiet and be gone, right?
Indra Klavins (31:43):
Yeah, and it's, you know, it's not a one to one
mapping, but I'm just thinkingwhen I when I'm talking to
folks, I'm trying to think of itfrom the different angles that a
listener might listen to it, andwhat that's given me not just
like everything you said is soimportant, and it's just like,
it's, it's, it's all abouttreating humans like humans with
all sorts of respect, which isso great, but it also gave me
(32:06):
like, how you're we need tosupport each other really well,
right? If you see somebody whois in that scenario, you need
to, you need to treat them withrespect. If you see someone
who's in transition, they'reprobably freaking out a little
bit. So, like, the same type ofgrace you give to that person
who's like, who's who's livingthrough
Mikki Hoffman (32:26):
that, I need more grace. Yeah, we all need more
grace. And I want to say onemore thing. There was another
story that I think really hithard for me in this experience,
where I had a little bit of aturning point, and it was in a
conversation with someone whowas working with me, so I was
managing a venue, and they werepart of the team that came with
the event. And so, you know,we're all in service, but we're
working in different parts ofthe event. I come to find a
(32:49):
little bit about the history ofthis individual, and I won't
share it, because it's not mystory to share, but I will say I
had this like moment ofreflecting in the mirror, of
saying I have been given so muchopportunity in my life like it
was so moving to know that thisperson had no other doors to
(33:10):
turn to open or closed behindthem, and I was choosing this,
and it was heavy on my Heart tothink about the fact that I
turned away from things, and Icould also turn back to them,
right? And this person didn'thave that, and then I felt like,
(33:33):
okay, it's kind of my duty tomake sure that with what I have
i i make use of it, because itis so not an option for so many
people. And I just like, that'sthat's another point of
humility, just like the immensegratitude that like flooded me
in this moment of saying, Wow, Ican't stay here forever. I have
(33:58):
more that was put in, and I'mgoing to take that and make the
most of it. And I think there'sthis trick of the fool that will
say, like, Oh, you'reprivileged, and this was just
like all something that wasgiven to you and you have no
right to it, and you didn'tdeserve it. And I think that
that is something where if, ifanybody else had what I had,
(34:21):
they would take it and run withit and do that, right? Yeah, and
that's what we all need to dowith whatever we are given. It
is a privilege. Every gift thatwe get is a privilege. But don't
live in guilt or fear thatsomehow this isn't yours to make
use of like
Indra Klavins (34:41):
honor that, and you can bring people along,
absolutely honoring that. Like,use your privilege for for not
just yourself. Absolutely allboats can float like or as many
boats as we possibly can canfloat from
Mikki Hoffman (34:54):
that, which is why I love community. I love
that when I volunteer forsomething. When I reach out and
say, You should be here too,like, get everybody together.
There is no competition, there'sonly collaboration, right? If
you know about this, and I knowabout that and doing this, we're
(35:15):
all trying to help each other,yeah, and I think it's beautiful
space to be in that I get toplay here at fabric, like being
this connector and supporting.And it's my way of saying in a
small way, like, I don't have tochange the world, but I can
change someone's world today. Ican change the way that this
(35:38):
going back to the room, fullcircle, okay, this little room,
I redesigned it. And I was like,okay, cool. I had my tiny impact
on 10 people today, because nowthey're going to enjoy a space
more. If that's it,
Indra Klavins (35:50):
that's it. But that's something, it's
something, something. And theripples, you don't know where
they're going to go, right?
Mikki Hoffman (35:56):
And I think as I continue to pursue that, and as
anyone continues to pursue thatyou will see the opportunity to
do that, and you just have toalign your actions with your
values. And I think there'snothing more revealing about
your values than rediscoveringyour identity, redefining your
identity, and doing that withhumility. Oh, circle, bam. I was
(36:17):
like, I didn't know if I wasgonna do this podcast thing
well, but that sounded like apretty nice concluding sentence.
Indra Klavins (36:22):
Nice concluding sentence for it. I am sure that
people got something out ofthis, whether it's some advice
or feeling seen, feeling likejust grounded, whatever it might
be. Thank you for joining me.Thank you for having honored
that you trusted me to have thisconversation. Yes, and, oh,
please. And I hope that everyonejoins us next time for another
(36:45):
topic, topic from the messymiddle matters. You can
Mikki Hoffman (36:48):
do it. Do your thing. You can do it.
Indra Klavins (36:57):
If you've got some get stuff done. Is on your
team or are one who takes pridein your work. We just dropped a
brand new I get stuff donecollection in the messy middle
merch shop. You'll also find theclassics Don't make me regret
trying to be helpful and wordsmatter. They make fantastic year
end gifts. And yes, we even havegift cards. And if something's
(37:17):
running late, there's a free Iordered it, but it's not here
yet. Download. You can hand themin the meantime, check
everything out at messy middlemerch.com, and if you like this
episode, a like, share orsubscribe goes a really long way
in helping us spread the wordtill next time you.
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