January 7, 2026 • 23 mins
In this conversation, Amanda Jane Lee discusses the innovative use of AI in self-discovery and career guidance. She emphasizes how AI can assist individuals in identifying their strengths and preferences through targeted questioning, making the process of career exploration more efficient and personalized.
Takeaways
- AI can help identify personal strengths and preferences.
- Mind mapping software is a useful tool in self-discovery.
- Asking the right questions is crucial for self-exploration.
- AI can generate questions to guide personal discovery.
- Understanding green flags is important in career choices.
- Self-discovery can be enhanced through technology.
- AI can streamline the process of finding suitable roles.
- Personalized guidance can lead to better career decisions.
- The role of AI in career exploration is growing.
- Embracing technology can aid in personal development.
Useful Links
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch:messymiddlemerch.com
- The Messy Middle Matters Glossary: messymiddlematters.com/glossary
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: messymiddlematters.com/feedback
- Amanda Jane Lee on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/amandajanelee/
- Indra Klavins on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:05):
Hi, I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are
you, Indra, I'm good. I'm good.I'm so happy that you're joining
me today for a topic that I knowthat everyone can probably
(00:28):
relate to in one way or another.What we're going to be talking
about today is when you'relooking for a role. Yes,
everyone knows how to hunt forthe red flags of like, the
things that, like, trigger,like, Oh, that's not going to be
for me. But like, what we'regoing to talk about today is
talking about finding the greenflags.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:47):
Yeah, yeah. I love, I love this mindset shift,
right? Because, like, you're, ifyou're looking for the red
flags, you're being active aboutlooking for what's wrong, right?
And, like, shifting your mindsetto looking for the green flags
instead of being on thedefensive and looking for, you
know, the red ones, thenegativity in your your
(01:10):
interview process 100%
Indra Klavins (01:12):
and because it's, it's so it's just such a it's,
it's difficult when you'rewhether you're trying to find
your next gig, and you'refreelancing, whether you're
looking for a full time role, nomatter what you're trying to do,
especially in this particularmarket, which is wacky right
now, I just get using the wordwacky because there's so many
other words I can use, but Ithink that sums up all of it.
(01:35):
You know, it can get really easyto get down on yourself and be
like, Ah, I can't find anythingthat's like, well suited, or
they're not responding to me,but if you start focusing on
those green flags, you'refocusing on the positive, like
you were just saying, which Ilove, which I love, which I
Amanda Jane Lee (01:48):
love, yeah, yeah. And I think the idea of
looking for the green flags ismore aligned to what you and I
have talked about in pastepisodes, right? Like the growth
mindset, leading with curiosityand just focusing more on what's
in this for me, right? Like,what, what, what positivity can
this opportunity bring for me?
Indra Klavins (02:12):
Yeah, 100% and, you know, I think it's not to
say that you shouldn't look forthose red flags, but I think
those red flags, it's, it's our,our reptilian brains are very
attuned to, are very attuned tothose fight or flight things,
those instincts that are builtover 1000s and 1000s of years
within us as being so like overindexing on thinking about those
(02:34):
green flags, I think is a goodthing. So, so do you have any?
Do you do you have? I know whichway I go when I start looking
for green flags or evenevaluating roles to see if they
have any green flags. Do youhave? Do you want me to start?
Did you want to start
Amanda Jane Lee (02:48):
from your side? Start from my side. Let's do it.
You know, when I was thinkingabout what my own green flags
were? Yeah, you know, one, onething that's really important to
me is a structured interviewprocess. Like, it's, it's a
signal to me that this company,or at least this HR team, has
(03:10):
their stuff together, right?Like, I've, I've gotten an
interview confirmation emailthat not only had the basic, you
know, agenda, like, here's foryour meeting and, like, at what
time, but like, what their titlewas, what area of what area of
expertise that specific personon the panel was evaluating, and
(03:32):
also, like, setting expectationsabout how soon I should receive
a decision on whether I wasmoving forward. And like, to me,
that's a signal of, you know,they have their stuff together
and it, it can, it can be asignal of what it's like to work
there and like that is importantto me.
Indra Klavins (03:49):
Yeah, I love which, when you're talking about
this, I think that what's it'shitting for me is it's important
for each one of us to define ourown green flags. What's a green
flag for you may be a red flagfor me, right? You know, and I'm
not saying that this is theexact case, but I so I want
everyone to, as you're listeningto this stuff, use it as seeds
for either you can borrow ourseeds of ideas, right, always,
(04:12):
right? But you're also welcometo find your own, you know,
because for some people, liketoo much follow up might be too
much because, you know, they'reapplying for lots and lots of
roles, and that might be justlike information overload. It's
fine, the find the green flagsthat work for you, which is
really, really nice, right?People, was that we're all
different people, we're alldifferent people, we're all
(04:32):
different people. And you know,if people have listened to more
than one episode of the messymiddle matters, they've probably
heard me talk about how Ileverage AI specifically chat
GPT. I use others as well, butchat GPT is the one I use the
most frequently. But what I'vedone, because I've trained that
really well, one of my favoriteways to evaluate opportunities
(04:54):
in any, any and all kinds ofopportunities, is to feed it
into. GPT, because it does knowme well. Say, Hey, can you
review this and see how wellthis would suit me and my goals?
You know, whether that's, youknow, being a guest on someone
else's podcast, whether that's arole, whether that's a this,
whether it's a that, and the waythat I've trained it, it's it
(05:15):
now it gives me Okay, so hereare the strengths of that
opportunity. Here are theweaknesses of that opportunity.
Here's a score. It scores themfor me, and then it just it
pulls out some of those thingsthat I may not have clocked.
Like, there was one that I fedinto it somewhere over the past
year. I don't remember when, butit fed it back. Like, yeah, I
see exactly why you thought thisis a great opportunity for you.
(05:37):
But you need to know, you needto be fluent in Mandarin. I'm
like, Oh, I totally missed thatwhen I scanned this. And,
goodness gracious, not fluent inMandarin at all. I might be able
to say the word rice inMandarin, but that's about it.
It helps to catch a lot of thethings, because when we're look
reviewing things, no matter howclosely we review them, our
brains are very good at trickingus. The AI is less likely to let
(06:02):
some of that stuff slide that wejust like, sort of might have
skimmed over, might have missedthe word, or might have, like,
our cognitive brains might havejust dismissed that and just
gone on to the next relevantthing. That might be because
we're looking for fit, likewe're looking for the things
that really align for us. Sothat's my that's my favorite
trick. Is using using generativeAI to help evaluate stuff.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:22):
Yeah, it's interesting that you because I
was thinking, I've been thinkingabout this from like, an
interviewing perspective, right?Like talking to people, but it's
interesting to hear that you areusing your spot, you're trying
to spot the green flags, andusing the tools at your
disposal, like AI, to do thiseven before you, even before you
(06:44):
apply to a job, or right as youapply to a job,
Indra Klavins (06:47):
any and all stages. So, like, it'll be
before I reach out and I spendmy time to make sure I tailor my
messages and whatever, prepare aproposal, tailor something, or
it could be even afterwards.Like, this is the conversation I
had. Like, I need an objectiveset of eyes, like, and it's,
yes, it's my retelling of it.Like, if I don't have my other
(07:09):
AIS turned on to, you know,record the transcript and
whatever, right? But I mightretell it like this was the
scenario. This is what was goingon. Can you give me a read on
it? Like, what? What is yourfeeling about it. So I want to
have a different someone else'sopinion, or technically,
something else's opinion, but,you know, a different opinion on
it, a different set of eyes onit. So I will use it at any and
(07:31):
all stages of all sorts of work,including opportunities, or,
like, even even postopportunity. These are smaller,
and this is, this is less aboutidentifying them, but, like, the
reason I use it sometimes, evenafter something has come to
fruition, I'm like, What did Imiss? Like, what did I look at?
So, like, I'm prepared for thenext time that there is, like,
(07:52):
my green flag radar, red flagradars are better attuned for
the next time that I wind up inthat scenario.
Amanda Jane Lee (07:59):
Yeah, um, I'm curious how, like, how did you
prompt your AI tools to toidentify what your your green
flags are, so that you know whenyou're asking it a question
about this job description orwhat happened here? Yeah, like
(08:22):
it can spit out the informationthat you need to ensure that
you're aligned or maybe notaligned. It's a good question.
Indra Klavins (08:29):
So I've been training it for lots of things.
I use it for almost everything.And some people might, you know,
wince at that, and I have my ownreasons for it, but I've fed,
I've fed everything into it.When it comes to organizing my
business, I've fed everythinginto it regarding the podcast,
so all the topics we talk about,it knows about in some way,
(08:49):
shape or form. I have, Iregularly have tweaked my
resume, and all those haveLinkedIn profiles, blurbs, copy
from my website, you know, andthen so, like, that's the,
that's like, the long view ofwhat I fed into it, but in that
moment when I'm prompting it,because, again, a wacky market,
and I will not, I will not fib,sometimes I'm like, Oh, I
(09:11):
definitely want to stay theindependent track. And
sometimes, like, you know what,I really would like a team
again, and I'd love to be partof a team. So sometimes I think
about those full time roles, andI don't, I don't. The world is
not forcing me down one path orthe other, right? No one's
holding anyone to anything,right, but you have to be
skillful about how you navigateback and forth between those and
how you position yourself. SoI'll give it the context of this
(09:32):
particular moment. Hey, rightnow I'm in the mindset of x, and
these are the things that I'mlooking for. I'm don't want to
abandon y, but this is thestuff. Can you help me evaluate
these roles? And so I'll feed itone roll at a time, and then it
will, and then it'll, that'llevaluate, and I use that same I
(09:53):
don't even know what theterminology is for it, but the
same thread I will use acrossall the different things until
that thread starts.Hallucinating, getting too
wacky, or like context jumping,and it does weird stuff. Might
start a fresh one, but that'show I've done it. Have you used
any sort of AI in yourevaluations? Or no,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:10):
not to the extent that you have as you
described, but more of a I'llfeed it job descriptions, and
I'll feed it my current versionof my resume, right? And I'll
ask it, like, is this a goodfit, if it you know, like, tell
me about this, or like, it's agood fit. Like, is there
anything I should change in myresume to tweak it so that,
(10:34):
like, the AI on their side canpick up my resume better, right?
Indra Klavins (10:39):
Yeah, but I love that process too, because in
that process, when it feeds backlike, you should position your
you and I happen to work atautomox together, so I'll choose
that one. So you should positionyour auto MOX role in this
particular way. And you can lookat those bullets and be like,
Ooh, I don't want to be seenlike that, like, and that's
that, to me, is a way of, youknow, that's a red flag, like,
(11:03):
like, Ooh, maybe this isn't therole for me. Let me reread this
a little more closely, but if itnails it, you're like, oh, green
flag. That's exactly the stuff Iwas most excited about from that
opportunity, from that role. AndI would love to do that again.
So that's a way of finding thegreen flags and using it the way
that you're talking about it,like tailoring your resume,
tailoring your summaries Taylorand your cover letter. I know
there's a lot of whatever outthere around, you know, negative
(11:27):
feedback on us using AIS fordoing that stuff, but the
reality of it is, most employersexpect something that is
tailored to them. And how do youexpect us to do all of this and
like, still keep our sanity? SoI am pro AI and all that stuff,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:43):
right, especially in this lackey
market, right? Yeah, so, like, Iasked specifically about, you
know, how you use AI and howyou're prompting it, and what
you're thinking about, because,like, I think we want to talk
about the figuring out theframework, right, like figuring
out what or giving the listenersa framework to use to figure out
(12:07):
what their green flags are.
Indra Klavins (12:10):
And I think that that's so there's lots of ways
to do that. I mean, the way thatI used to do it in the pre AI
days is do a brain dump withlike, 500 colored post its and
then I cluster post its rightlike, because I haven't again.
Anyone who's met me knows I lovea post it in a Sharpie, but, you
know? And then see what surfaceslike, or even like having a
(12:32):
notebook, and I jot down thewords that are there, and see
what surfaces. And see what arethe things that are the most
important to me, you know, butin the in the world of AI, I
know people have used my mappingsoftware and all sorts of other
things too, for that. In theworld of AI, you can use your AI
to figure that out. Be like,Hey, I don't know what I want.
What questions can you ask me tofigure out what my green flags
(12:55):
are, right? What are you What?How can you like? What questions
can you ask me to help? Or whatquestions can I answer for you
to help identify which roleswill be best suited for me? And
then it gives you thosequestions, and you don't even
need to brainstorm those, right?That's and then it collects that
into its own memory, right?Again, so, like, that's, it's a
to me, it's a time saving issue.It's a gut checking issue. I can
(13:17):
always, always, you have tocheck your AI and say, That's
not what I meant. That's notwhat I want, right? Last night,
I had an interaction with chatGPT where I was it interpreted
something that I said, y'all,I'm giving away big secret here,
right now, interpreted somethingthat I said in a very positive
connotation, because I use theword impressive. But what people
(13:40):
don't know? I mean, I think ofpeople who pay attention to me
know this, but people who arenot paying that close attention.
I use the impressive, the wordimpressive in such a spectrum of
ways. It's sometimes it's like,Oh, bless your heart, version of
impressive. And sometimes like,oh my gosh, that's really
impressive. And it could beanything in between, right? So I
(14:00):
did Correct. I'm like, just sothat we're clear, add this to
your memory. When I sayimpressive, I may or may not be
sarcastic. I may or may not be,you know, neutral. I may or be
may not be, like, superpositive. So check in us,
please. So you're allowed tocheck your GPT and say, That's
not what I meant. And if itagain, back to the if it starts,
if it starts being not useful.And it's like, I feel like I
(14:22):
feel like it's completelydisconnected. For me, I start a
brand new chat window, and thenI go start fresh, see like it
has some of the most importantmemories locked in its main date
knowledge base. But then thatrefreshes it just a little
Unknown (14:34):
bit for me. Yeah, I do the same. Yeah.
Indra Klavins (14:38):
Have you used it to have you used it to ask,
figure out what questions youshould even begin to ask.
Amanda Jane Lee (14:43):
But more so from a like, Oh, I'm about to
talk to somebody, and here's andhere's the here's the job
description, here's what I knowabout the opportunity, yeah, and
like, here's a list of questionsthat I plan on asking because.
Yeah, I have, I have a handfulof questions that I like to ask
during every interview process,like, no matter what the role
(15:06):
is, right, yeah. And I'll askit, is there anything else that
I should be like, what otherquestions should I be asking? Is
there anything that I might havemissed based on all of the
context that you know here?
Indra Klavins (15:17):
Yeah, and that's another way to like this. So do
you have any green flagquestions that you love to ask?
Like to find your green flagsduring an interview process,
whether it's the phone screen orlike, deeper in the interview
cycle,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:30):
my one of my go to in my handful of questions
is, what does success look likein this
Indra Klavins (15:37):
role, and when is it a green flag? And when is it
a red flag? That answer. I'mcurious, like because I'm
imagining the green flag and thered flag answers right now,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:47):
yeah, for me, a signal of a green flag is yes,
the actual answer to thequestion. But what I like to
assess is the consistency acrossanswers from different
interviewers.
Indra Klavins (16:03):
That's interesting. That's actually
good. I think it was thinking,like, the worst red flag in that
question is, like, I don't know,yeah, for sure. Like, I
shouldn't I am in a role that Ishould know that answer. I might
even be the hiring manager and Idon't know that answer. Like,
that's not always a red flag,because, you know, depending on
your role, depending on yourscenario, depending on a lot of
(16:25):
things, and depending on howthey phrase it, it might not be
a red flag, but a lot of timeswhen they're like, I don't know.
I've never thought about
Amanda Jane Lee (16:34):
that Well, especially from the hiring
manager, come on, friend,
Indra Klavins (16:37):
you can do better than that.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:41):
But yeah, I, like, for me, like, one of the
green flags that I look for isthe consistency, right? Like,
you know, you could, I've workedup places where they put their
best, most positive people onthe on the panel and like, that
might not be representative ofthe of the greater team or
(17:02):
company, right? And so, like, Ilike to to assess for
consistency, yeah.
Indra Klavins (17:07):
So let's talk about green flags that you find
when you're evaluating thecompany, right, when you're
really and that might be afteryou've applied that, like,
there's, there's a there's adifferent order of operations in
different scenarios. But I knowthat both of us do this when
we're especially when we'retalking about full time roles,
like look, how do you how do youassess that that company is one
(17:30):
that you might thrive in?
Amanda Jane Lee (17:32):
I go straight to their company values page,
and some inner some companiesincorporate this into their
interview process, right? Ofassessing you for their company
values, but I like to do thesame. I like to assess them on
(17:54):
their own company values, like,for example, if a company value
is strong collaboration, right?I'll ask questions specifically
about, you know, are there, whatwas the last project that your
team delivered that it that, youknow, needed cross functional
collaboration? Can you tell memore about that? And I'll just
(18:16):
like, probe a little bit to see,like, if, if we walk the walk,
yeah, I'd
Indra Klavins (18:22):
say, when you're talking about values, the other
thing that I do when I take alook at somebody's values page
is the order in which they listsaid values. Now, they may not
live them in that order, butthat but I always see what order
they're listed in, because twothat you'll often find, and
they're not phrased necessarilythis way, but it is. There is a
(18:44):
we care about our employeesvalue, and then we and then
there's the we care about. Well,let's do three. We care about
our customers value, and there'sa we care about our shareholders
value, and and whether you know,let's say it's a private
company, they're stillshareholders, or even if you're
privately held, there's somesort of version of shareholders,
(19:05):
right? The sequence in whichthose are listed says an awful
lot about a company, right?Because and and in a lived in,
in a lived experience, theymight, they might be different,
but seeing how they choose toput that on their values page
says an awful lot, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (19:23):
Did? It's a choice to put the words on the
page the way they are.
Indra Klavins (19:31):
And handily, I just chose, because we're doing
this episode, my words matter,mug, right? Because words
matter, it really, really does.The other thing that I look at
when I'm looking at a company istheir board of directors and
their leadership team same?Because that says an awful lot
about like, whether or not theycan change it as a different
(19:52):
story, you know, like, whetherthey've chosen to change it as
different but the board ofdirectors and and senior
leadership pages are.Fascinating.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:01):
Fascinating for me. All I'll say about this for
now is a picture says 1000words.
Indra Klavins (20:08):
It really does. It really does. If you know, if
the gray scale of the if thegray scale is too homogenous,
it's usually or if it's toohomogenous in other ways. I
generally don't know if it's anorganization I'll thrive in
personally,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:29):
personally, like, that's a that's a green
flag that I'm looking for a morediverse set of directors,
leadership C team, even like thecompany as a whole. Like, I'll,
I'll look at LinkedIn and seewho works at that company, and
just do a quick scrolly scroll.
Indra Klavins (20:48):
Or have all these people work together at the same
company for all these years. Ordid they all go to the same
university? Or that? Like,there's lots of ways to assess
this stuff. And again, you needto know what your green what
green flags you're looking forto figure out is that, is that
the fit for me? Is that the fitfor me? Yay? I try to think up.
(21:09):
Like, I feel like we hit anawful lot of stuff, including
stuff I didn't know that we'deven talk about. Like, this
feels like a weird place to end.But I also, like, feel really
like I'm trying to go through mybrain, like, because, like, you
know it is the you know it isevaluate, figure out what you're
evaluating on. When it comes togreen flags, everyone sees my
band aid today, I scratchedmyself this morning. Goodness
(21:29):
gracious. So evaluate yourselfon, evaluate the roles to see
how they suit you, right? Or tofigure out what you're
evaluating them on, evaluate theroles to see how they suit you,
evaluate the companies to seehow they suit you, evaluate the
people, to see how they suityou. And and you know, and just
(21:50):
do your best, do your best, butlook for the positives, not just
the negatives, right? It'syou're looking for fit, not for
reasons not to join this company100, because if you did that,
there's not too many places thatwe'd all wind up, because
there's always something to befound somewhere,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:07):
right, right, right? No, no. Company is
perfect, right? But yes, I thinkit is. A big part of this is
doing that self reflectionpiece, or, you know, use AI to
help you with yourselfreflection, however you whatever
tools you want, right, whatevertools you want, to really think
about what you're looking for inyour next role and figure out
(22:31):
how to structure your your yourevaluation process, to look for
the things that fit you right?
Indra Klavins (22:41):
And I think this is, and I the last thing I think
that I'll that I'd like to add,is the fact that, you know, it's
always good to figure thesethings out, if you can when
things are, when you're not,when you're in a good headspace,
when you're in a good headspace,and set them ahead of time when
you're in that good spaceheadspace, because when you're
(23:02):
evaluating that might be a badday. There might be a bad
market. You might be feeling alittle bit stressed, and your
your your evaluation criteria,like inner valuation criteria,
is not working so well. You needto rely on that external
something, whether it's yourchecklist, whether it's another
tool, whether it's another humanbeing who helps you look at that
stuff, do it, figure it out on agood day, and then always touch
(23:26):
on it so that you don'tundersell yourself in the moment
when you're a little bitstressed out. Yeah, I think
that's great advice. Amanda, youhad another useful conversation.
I trust that everyone gotsomething good out of it today,
and I hope y'all will join usnext time when we cover another
topic for the messy middle. Bye,everyone bye.
(23:50):
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle. Word of
mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
(24:11):
at the messy middle matters.com,or in the show notes. Thank you
for joining us on this journey,this work is better when we do
it together. Until next timeyou.
Hi, I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, Amanda, how areyou today? I'm good. How are
you, Indra, I'm good. I'm good.I'm so happy that you're joining
me today for a topic that I knowthat everyone can probably
(00:28):
relate to in one way or another.What we're going to be talking
about today is when you'relooking for a role. Yes,
everyone knows how to hunt forthe red flags of like, the
things that, like, trigger,like, Oh, that's not going to be
for me. But like, what we'regoing to talk about today is
talking about finding the greenflags.
Amanda Jane Lee (00:47):
Yeah, yeah. I love, I love this mindset shift,
right? Because, like, you're, ifyou're looking for the red
flags, you're being active aboutlooking for what's wrong, right?
And, like, shifting your mindsetto looking for the green flags
instead of being on thedefensive and looking for, you
know, the red ones, thenegativity in your your
(01:10):
interview process 100%
Indra Klavins (01:12):
and because it's, it's so it's just such a it's,
it's difficult when you'rewhether you're trying to find
your next gig, and you'refreelancing, whether you're
looking for a full time role, nomatter what you're trying to do,
especially in this particularmarket, which is wacky right
now, I just get using the wordwacky because there's so many
other words I can use, but Ithink that sums up all of it.
(01:35):
You know, it can get really easyto get down on yourself and be
like, Ah, I can't find anythingthat's like, well suited, or
they're not responding to me,but if you start focusing on
those green flags, you'refocusing on the positive, like
you were just saying, which Ilove, which I love, which I
Amanda Jane Lee (01:48):
love, yeah, yeah. And I think the idea of
looking for the green flags ismore aligned to what you and I
have talked about in pastepisodes, right? Like the growth
mindset, leading with curiosityand just focusing more on what's
in this for me, right? Like,what, what, what positivity can
this opportunity bring for me?
Indra Klavins (02:12):
Yeah, 100% and, you know, I think it's not to
say that you shouldn't look forthose red flags, but I think
those red flags, it's, it's our,our reptilian brains are very
attuned to, are very attuned tothose fight or flight things,
those instincts that are builtover 1000s and 1000s of years
within us as being so like overindexing on thinking about those
(02:34):
green flags, I think is a goodthing. So, so do you have any?
Do you do you have? I know whichway I go when I start looking
for green flags or evenevaluating roles to see if they
have any green flags. Do youhave? Do you want me to start?
Did you want to start
Amanda Jane Lee (02:48):
from your side? Start from my side. Let's do it.
You know, when I was thinkingabout what my own green flags
were? Yeah, you know, one, onething that's really important to
me is a structured interviewprocess. Like, it's, it's a
signal to me that this company,or at least this HR team, has
(03:10):
their stuff together, right?Like, I've, I've gotten an
interview confirmation emailthat not only had the basic, you
know, agenda, like, here's foryour meeting and, like, at what
time, but like, what their titlewas, what area of what area of
expertise that specific personon the panel was evaluating, and
(03:32):
also, like, setting expectationsabout how soon I should receive
a decision on whether I wasmoving forward. And like, to me,
that's a signal of, you know,they have their stuff together
and it, it can, it can be asignal of what it's like to work
there and like that is importantto me.
Indra Klavins (03:49):
Yeah, I love which, when you're talking about
this, I think that what's it'shitting for me is it's important
for each one of us to define ourown green flags. What's a green
flag for you may be a red flagfor me, right? You know, and I'm
not saying that this is theexact case, but I so I want
everyone to, as you're listeningto this stuff, use it as seeds
for either you can borrow ourseeds of ideas, right, always,
(04:12):
right? But you're also welcometo find your own, you know,
because for some people, liketoo much follow up might be too
much because, you know, they'reapplying for lots and lots of
roles, and that might be justlike information overload. It's
fine, the find the green flagsthat work for you, which is
really, really nice, right?People, was that we're all
different people, we're alldifferent people, we're all
(04:32):
different people. And you know,if people have listened to more
than one episode of the messymiddle matters, they've probably
heard me talk about how Ileverage AI specifically chat
GPT. I use others as well, butchat GPT is the one I use the
most frequently. But what I'vedone, because I've trained that
really well, one of my favoriteways to evaluate opportunities
(04:54):
in any, any and all kinds ofopportunities, is to feed it
into. GPT, because it does knowme well. Say, Hey, can you
review this and see how wellthis would suit me and my goals?
You know, whether that's, youknow, being a guest on someone
else's podcast, whether that's arole, whether that's a this,
whether it's a that, and the waythat I've trained it, it's it
(05:15):
now it gives me Okay, so hereare the strengths of that
opportunity. Here are theweaknesses of that opportunity.
Here's a score. It scores themfor me, and then it just it
pulls out some of those thingsthat I may not have clocked.
Like, there was one that I fedinto it somewhere over the past
year. I don't remember when, butit fed it back. Like, yeah, I
see exactly why you thought thisis a great opportunity for you.
(05:37):
But you need to know, you needto be fluent in Mandarin. I'm
like, Oh, I totally missed thatwhen I scanned this. And,
goodness gracious, not fluent inMandarin at all. I might be able
to say the word rice inMandarin, but that's about it.
It helps to catch a lot of thethings, because when we're look
reviewing things, no matter howclosely we review them, our
brains are very good at trickingus. The AI is less likely to let
(06:02):
some of that stuff slide that wejust like, sort of might have
skimmed over, might have missedthe word, or might have, like,
our cognitive brains might havejust dismissed that and just
gone on to the next relevantthing. That might be because
we're looking for fit, likewe're looking for the things
that really align for us. Sothat's my that's my favorite
trick. Is using using generativeAI to help evaluate stuff.
Amanda Jane Lee (06:22):
Yeah, it's interesting that you because I
was thinking, I've been thinkingabout this from like, an
interviewing perspective, right?Like talking to people, but it's
interesting to hear that you areusing your spot, you're trying
to spot the green flags, andusing the tools at your
disposal, like AI, to do thiseven before you, even before you
(06:44):
apply to a job, or right as youapply to a job,
Indra Klavins (06:47):
any and all stages. So, like, it'll be
before I reach out and I spendmy time to make sure I tailor my
messages and whatever, prepare aproposal, tailor something, or
it could be even afterwards.Like, this is the conversation I
had. Like, I need an objectiveset of eyes, like, and it's,
yes, it's my retelling of it.Like, if I don't have my other
(07:09):
AIS turned on to, you know,record the transcript and
whatever, right? But I mightretell it like this was the
scenario. This is what was goingon. Can you give me a read on
it? Like, what? What is yourfeeling about it. So I want to
have a different someone else'sopinion, or technically,
something else's opinion, but,you know, a different opinion on
it, a different set of eyes onit. So I will use it at any and
(07:31):
all stages of all sorts of work,including opportunities, or,
like, even even postopportunity. These are smaller,
and this is, this is less aboutidentifying them, but, like, the
reason I use it sometimes, evenafter something has come to
fruition, I'm like, What did Imiss? Like, what did I look at?
So, like, I'm prepared for thenext time that there is, like,
(07:52):
my green flag radar, red flagradars are better attuned for
the next time that I wind up inthat scenario.
Amanda Jane Lee (07:59):
Yeah, um, I'm curious how, like, how did you
prompt your AI tools to toidentify what your your green
flags are, so that you know whenyou're asking it a question
about this job description orwhat happened here? Yeah, like
(08:22):
it can spit out the informationthat you need to ensure that
you're aligned or maybe notaligned. It's a good question.
Indra Klavins (08:29):
So I've been training it for lots of things.
I use it for almost everything.And some people might, you know,
wince at that, and I have my ownreasons for it, but I've fed,
I've fed everything into it.When it comes to organizing my
business, I've fed everythinginto it regarding the podcast,
so all the topics we talk about,it knows about in some way,
(08:49):
shape or form. I have, Iregularly have tweaked my
resume, and all those haveLinkedIn profiles, blurbs, copy
from my website, you know, andthen so, like, that's the,
that's like, the long view ofwhat I fed into it, but in that
moment when I'm prompting it,because, again, a wacky market,
and I will not, I will not fib,sometimes I'm like, Oh, I
(09:11):
definitely want to stay theindependent track. And
sometimes, like, you know what,I really would like a team
again, and I'd love to be partof a team. So sometimes I think
about those full time roles, andI don't, I don't. The world is
not forcing me down one path orthe other, right? No one's
holding anyone to anything,right, but you have to be
skillful about how you navigateback and forth between those and
how you position yourself. SoI'll give it the context of this
(09:32):
particular moment. Hey, rightnow I'm in the mindset of x, and
these are the things that I'mlooking for. I'm don't want to
abandon y, but this is thestuff. Can you help me evaluate
these roles? And so I'll feed itone roll at a time, and then it
will, and then it'll, that'llevaluate, and I use that same I
(09:53):
don't even know what theterminology is for it, but the
same thread I will use acrossall the different things until
that thread starts.Hallucinating, getting too
wacky, or like context jumping,and it does weird stuff. Might
start a fresh one, but that'show I've done it. Have you used
any sort of AI in yourevaluations? Or no,
Amanda Jane Lee (10:10):
not to the extent that you have as you
described, but more of a I'llfeed it job descriptions, and
I'll feed it my current versionof my resume, right? And I'll
ask it, like, is this a goodfit, if it you know, like, tell
me about this, or like, it's agood fit. Like, is there
anything I should change in myresume to tweak it so that,
(10:34):
like, the AI on their side canpick up my resume better, right?
Indra Klavins (10:39):
Yeah, but I love that process too, because in
that process, when it feeds backlike, you should position your
you and I happen to work atautomox together, so I'll choose
that one. So you should positionyour auto MOX role in this
particular way. And you can lookat those bullets and be like,
Ooh, I don't want to be seenlike that, like, and that's
that, to me, is a way of, youknow, that's a red flag, like,
(11:03):
like, Ooh, maybe this isn't therole for me. Let me reread this
a little more closely, but if itnails it, you're like, oh, green
flag. That's exactly the stuff Iwas most excited about from that
opportunity, from that role. AndI would love to do that again.
So that's a way of finding thegreen flags and using it the way
that you're talking about it,like tailoring your resume,
tailoring your summaries Taylorand your cover letter. I know
there's a lot of whatever outthere around, you know, negative
(11:27):
feedback on us using AIS fordoing that stuff, but the
reality of it is, most employersexpect something that is
tailored to them. And how do youexpect us to do all of this and
like, still keep our sanity? SoI am pro AI and all that stuff,
Amanda Jane Lee (11:43):
right, especially in this lackey
market, right? Yeah, so, like, Iasked specifically about, you
know, how you use AI and howyou're prompting it, and what
you're thinking about, because,like, I think we want to talk
about the figuring out theframework, right, like figuring
out what or giving the listenersa framework to use to figure out
(12:07):
what their green flags are.
Indra Klavins (12:10):
And I think that that's so there's lots of ways
to do that. I mean, the way thatI used to do it in the pre AI
days is do a brain dump withlike, 500 colored post its and
then I cluster post its rightlike, because I haven't again.
Anyone who's met me knows I lovea post it in a Sharpie, but, you
know? And then see what surfaceslike, or even like having a
(12:32):
notebook, and I jot down thewords that are there, and see
what surfaces. And see what arethe things that are the most
important to me, you know, butin the in the world of AI, I
know people have used my mappingsoftware and all sorts of other
things too, for that. In theworld of AI, you can use your AI
to figure that out. Be like,Hey, I don't know what I want.
What questions can you ask me tofigure out what my green flags
(12:55):
are, right? What are you What?How can you like? What questions
can you ask me to help? Or whatquestions can I answer for you
to help identify which roleswill be best suited for me? And
then it gives you thosequestions, and you don't even
need to brainstorm those, right?That's and then it collects that
into its own memory, right?Again, so, like, that's, it's a
to me, it's a time saving issue.It's a gut checking issue. I can
(13:17):
always, always, you have tocheck your AI and say, That's
not what I meant. That's notwhat I want, right? Last night,
I had an interaction with chatGPT where I was it interpreted
something that I said, y'all,I'm giving away big secret here,
right now, interpreted somethingthat I said in a very positive
connotation, because I use theword impressive. But what people
(13:40):
don't know? I mean, I think ofpeople who pay attention to me
know this, but people who arenot paying that close attention.
I use the impressive, the wordimpressive in such a spectrum of
ways. It's sometimes it's like,Oh, bless your heart, version of
impressive. And sometimes like,oh my gosh, that's really
impressive. And it could beanything in between, right? So I
(14:00):
did Correct. I'm like, just sothat we're clear, add this to
your memory. When I sayimpressive, I may or may not be
sarcastic. I may or may not be,you know, neutral. I may or be
may not be, like, superpositive. So check in us,
please. So you're allowed tocheck your GPT and say, That's
not what I meant. And if itagain, back to the if it starts,
if it starts being not useful.And it's like, I feel like I
(14:22):
feel like it's completelydisconnected. For me, I start a
brand new chat window, and thenI go start fresh, see like it
has some of the most importantmemories locked in its main date
knowledge base. But then thatrefreshes it just a little
Unknown (14:34):
bit for me. Yeah, I do the same. Yeah.
Indra Klavins (14:38):
Have you used it to have you used it to ask,
figure out what questions youshould even begin to ask.
Amanda Jane Lee (14:43):
But more so from a like, Oh, I'm about to
talk to somebody, and here's andhere's the here's the job
description, here's what I knowabout the opportunity, yeah, and
like, here's a list of questionsthat I plan on asking because.
Yeah, I have, I have a handfulof questions that I like to ask
during every interview process,like, no matter what the role
(15:06):
is, right, yeah. And I'll askit, is there anything else that
I should be like, what otherquestions should I be asking? Is
there anything that I might havemissed based on all of the
context that you know here?
Indra Klavins (15:17):
Yeah, and that's another way to like this. So do
you have any green flagquestions that you love to ask?
Like to find your green flagsduring an interview process,
whether it's the phone screen orlike, deeper in the interview
cycle,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:30):
my one of my go to in my handful of questions
is, what does success look likein this
Indra Klavins (15:37):
role, and when is it a green flag? And when is it
a red flag? That answer. I'mcurious, like because I'm
imagining the green flag and thered flag answers right now,
Amanda Jane Lee (15:47):
yeah, for me, a signal of a green flag is yes,
the actual answer to thequestion. But what I like to
assess is the consistency acrossanswers from different
interviewers.
Indra Klavins (16:03):
That's interesting. That's actually
good. I think it was thinking,like, the worst red flag in that
question is, like, I don't know,yeah, for sure. Like, I
shouldn't I am in a role that Ishould know that answer. I might
even be the hiring manager and Idon't know that answer. Like,
that's not always a red flag,because, you know, depending on
your role, depending on yourscenario, depending on a lot of
(16:25):
things, and depending on howthey phrase it, it might not be
a red flag, but a lot of timeswhen they're like, I don't know.
I've never thought about
Amanda Jane Lee (16:34):
that Well, especially from the hiring
manager, come on, friend,
Indra Klavins (16:37):
you can do better than that.
Amanda Jane Lee (16:41):
But yeah, I, like, for me, like, one of the
green flags that I look for isthe consistency, right? Like,
you know, you could, I've workedup places where they put their
best, most positive people onthe on the panel and like, that
might not be representative ofthe of the greater team or
(17:02):
company, right? And so, like, Ilike to to assess for
consistency, yeah.
Indra Klavins (17:07):
So let's talk about green flags that you find
when you're evaluating thecompany, right, when you're
really and that might be afteryou've applied that, like,
there's, there's a there's adifferent order of operations in
different scenarios. But I knowthat both of us do this when
we're especially when we'retalking about full time roles,
like look, how do you how do youassess that that company is one
(17:30):
that you might thrive in?
Amanda Jane Lee (17:32):
I go straight to their company values page,
and some inner some companiesincorporate this into their
interview process, right? Ofassessing you for their company
values, but I like to do thesame. I like to assess them on
(17:54):
their own company values, like,for example, if a company value
is strong collaboration, right?I'll ask questions specifically
about, you know, are there, whatwas the last project that your
team delivered that it that, youknow, needed cross functional
collaboration? Can you tell memore about that? And I'll just
(18:16):
like, probe a little bit to see,like, if, if we walk the walk,
yeah, I'd
Indra Klavins (18:22):
say, when you're talking about values, the other
thing that I do when I take alook at somebody's values page
is the order in which they listsaid values. Now, they may not
live them in that order, butthat but I always see what order
they're listed in, because twothat you'll often find, and
they're not phrased necessarilythis way, but it is. There is a
(18:44):
we care about our employeesvalue, and then we and then
there's the we care about. Well,let's do three. We care about
our customers value, and there'sa we care about our shareholders
value, and and whether you know,let's say it's a private
company, they're stillshareholders, or even if you're
privately held, there's somesort of version of shareholders,
(19:05):
right? The sequence in whichthose are listed says an awful
lot about a company, right?Because and and in a lived in,
in a lived experience, theymight, they might be different,
but seeing how they choose toput that on their values page
says an awful lot, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (19:23):
Did? It's a choice to put the words on the
page the way they are.
Indra Klavins (19:31):
And handily, I just chose, because we're doing
this episode, my words matter,mug, right? Because words
matter, it really, really does.The other thing that I look at
when I'm looking at a company istheir board of directors and
their leadership team same?Because that says an awful lot
about like, whether or not theycan change it as a different
(19:52):
story, you know, like, whetherthey've chosen to change it as
different but the board ofdirectors and and senior
leadership pages are.Fascinating.
Amanda Jane Lee (20:01):
Fascinating for me. All I'll say about this for
now is a picture says 1000words.
Indra Klavins (20:08):
It really does. It really does. If you know, if
the gray scale of the if thegray scale is too homogenous,
it's usually or if it's toohomogenous in other ways. I
generally don't know if it's anorganization I'll thrive in
personally,
Amanda Jane Lee (20:29):
personally, like, that's a that's a green
flag that I'm looking for a morediverse set of directors,
leadership C team, even like thecompany as a whole. Like, I'll,
I'll look at LinkedIn and seewho works at that company, and
just do a quick scrolly scroll.
Indra Klavins (20:48):
Or have all these people work together at the same
company for all these years. Ordid they all go to the same
university? Or that? Like,there's lots of ways to assess
this stuff. And again, you needto know what your green what
green flags you're looking forto figure out is that, is that
the fit for me? Is that the fitfor me? Yay? I try to think up.
(21:09):
Like, I feel like we hit anawful lot of stuff, including
stuff I didn't know that we'deven talk about. Like, this
feels like a weird place to end.But I also, like, feel really
like I'm trying to go through mybrain, like, because, like, you
know it is the you know it isevaluate, figure out what you're
evaluating on. When it comes togreen flags, everyone sees my
band aid today, I scratchedmyself this morning. Goodness
(21:29):
gracious. So evaluate yourselfon, evaluate the roles to see
how they suit you, right? Or tofigure out what you're
evaluating them on, evaluate theroles to see how they suit you,
evaluate the companies to seehow they suit you, evaluate the
people, to see how they suityou. And and you know, and just
(21:50):
do your best, do your best, butlook for the positives, not just
the negatives, right? It'syou're looking for fit, not for
reasons not to join this company100, because if you did that,
there's not too many places thatwe'd all wind up, because
there's always something to befound somewhere,
Amanda Jane Lee (22:07):
right, right, right? No, no. Company is
perfect, right? But yes, I thinkit is. A big part of this is
doing that self reflectionpiece, or, you know, use AI to
help you with yourselfreflection, however you whatever
tools you want, right, whatevertools you want, to really think
about what you're looking for inyour next role and figure out
(22:31):
how to structure your your yourevaluation process, to look for
the things that fit you right?
Indra Klavins (22:41):
And I think this is, and I the last thing I think
that I'll that I'd like to add,is the fact that, you know, it's
always good to figure thesethings out, if you can when
things are, when you're not,when you're in a good headspace,
when you're in a good headspace,and set them ahead of time when
you're in that good spaceheadspace, because when you're
(23:02):
evaluating that might be a badday. There might be a bad
market. You might be feeling alittle bit stressed, and your
your your evaluation criteria,like inner valuation criteria,
is not working so well. You needto rely on that external
something, whether it's yourchecklist, whether it's another
tool, whether it's another humanbeing who helps you look at that
stuff, do it, figure it out on agood day, and then always touch
(23:26):
on it so that you don'tundersell yourself in the moment
when you're a little bitstressed out. Yeah, I think
that's great advice. Amanda, youhad another useful conversation.
I trust that everyone gotsomething good out of it today,
and I hope y'all will join usnext time when we cover another
topic for the messy middle. Bye,everyone bye.
(23:50):
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle. Word of
mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
(24:11):
at the messy middle matters.com,or in the show notes. Thank you
for joining us on this journey,this work is better when we do
it together. Until next timeyou.
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