January 14, 2026 • 32 mins
Starting a new role can feel overwhelming, even when you know the basics—logging in, getting paid, finding the coffee. In this episode, Indra Klavins and Amanda Jane Lee go beyond standard onboarding advice to explore how to truly set yourself up for success in your first 90 days.
They discuss the importance of asking foundational questions, building your own organizational maps, decoding internal vocabulary, and taking a listening-first approach to understand culture and team dynamics. From strategic one-on-ones to creating your own “maps” of reporting structures and workflows, this episode is full of practical tips for making meaningful first impressions, establishing your brand, and navigating both in-person and remote environments.
Whether you’re joining a hyper-growth startup, a large enterprise, or a cross-functional team, this conversation equips you with tools to orient yourself, gather context, and thrive in the messy middle of a new role.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:05):
Hi, I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone, today,we're going to be talking about
getting started in a new role,like those first 90 days, you
know, and not just the stuffthat you know everybody knows to
(00:27):
do, like my father used to givethe advice on the first day of
any job, the three things that Iwould need to get sorted out,
beyond all the HR stuff to makesure I got paid, was figure out
where the coffee machine is,figure out where the bathroom
is, and figure out where theemergency exits are, that every
single job and so, like, there'scertain things that are on your
(00:47):
to do checklist, and certainthings that you know are not on
your to do checklist, but arereally good best practices. So
today, Amanda's gonna be talkingto me about this one. It's I'm
excited about it. I'm excitedabout it, exploring beyond,
beyond the standard stuff thatwe usually, that everyone tends
to
Amanda Jane Lee (01:06):
do, yeah, and can I just say that your
father's advice, like thosethree things, like, on point
completely.
Indra Klavins (01:14):
I mean, he was a little bit more paranoid. You
can see what he valued most inlife, like, just the
practicalities of things. But healso had this thing. He's, he's,
he's now deceased, so, you know,and I don't think he'd be upset
over this story. He also worriedabout which floor of a building
he was on, because he alwaysworked in Manhattan, and so he
was always making sure that thewhatever he possible, he would
(01:34):
be on a low floor, so thatevacuation would be easier,
right? Yeah, viewers to walkdown Yeah, life, practicalities
of life, which I think applybeyond Manhattan, but anyway,
yeah, so, Amanda, you and I haveonboarded into more than one
organization over the course ofour careers. And you know, I
(01:56):
think we've got, we've got awhole bunch of different things
that we're going to share witheveryone today about the stuff
that have helped us succeed,that are that are beyond that,
because there is the, you know,like I said, making sure that
you get everything set up to getyour paycheck through, making
sure that you can log into yourcomputers, making sure all your
devices work like there's justso much of that it feels like A
(02:20):
slog. It's a necessary slug.Even in the best onboarding I've
had, which actually was at thecompany that you and I worked
at, automotive, which totallymakes sense, given what they
specialize in, that was probablythe mood is technical
onboarding. But there's beensome bumpy ones. But beyond
that, you know like it is whatmakes you successful because it
(02:41):
is your introduction to a neworganization, a new set of
people. Even if you know some ofthem already from a past role,
it's a brand new environment, soyou're going to know them in a
different
Amanda Jane Lee (02:51):
way totally. Yeah, I'm thinking of advice
that I got from, I don't evenknow who, but it's you only get
to be new once and like though,that's why those first 90 days
are so important. Like you, youare giving the your first
(03:12):
impressions to everyone youit's, it's your opportunity to
ask what could be simplequestions, right? But like, you
can I always like to, oh, I'mplaying the new girl card. Like,
can you explain this to me?
Indra Klavins (03:27):
Yeah, no, I think that that's absolutely right.
And this, this will shift andchange depending on your role,
depending on your career stage,depending on all that. So take
all that within context. Pullthe things that are really
useful for you, add your ownstuff to the stuff that we're
talking about, but 100% youknow, like it is when you are
new to an organization, it isthe it's it's the only time that
(03:51):
you can ask questions withoutassuming that you know the
answers. And like my favoriteway to ask a question whether
I'm new to a project, new to anorganization, new to whatever
is. I just want to make sure.And this goes back to our first
episode, Words matter. I justgot some new words matter
sticker. So if you see me in thewild, find me. They, they. I
(04:14):
always say, like, I know whatthese words mean to me, but what
do they mean in the context ofthis organization? Right?
Because that it really there isa lot of nuance. So like, let's
start with vocabulary, becausethat's one of our favorite
things to talk about. I didn'tknow we were going to start
there, but it is one of ourfavorite things to talk about.
Like, figuring out what do thosewords mean here in this
(04:38):
organization, it is worthwhileasking that foundational
question and not assuming thatyou know that you know that the
word means what, what it's meantfor you and every other company
you've worked for, because oftenenough like it'll sneak up on
you. You're like, whoa. How didthat happen?
Amanda Jane Lee (04:58):
Yeah, and even, even. Of words that or acronyms
or jargon that seems very likeknown across the industry may
not, may not mean the same thingor what you think it does in
that particular organization.
Indra Klavins (05:16):
100% I wish I could remember what it was
yesterday. I was at apresentation. It was focused on,
it was like it was a networkingevent, which was focused on AI.
And they used an acronym that isvery familiar. Everywhere else
in the world is something else.And they Oh, no, you notice,
you'll like this one. It was ragR, A G. And I cannot remember
(05:37):
off the top of my head what r ag means. I remember the
definition. I don't rememberwhat the word stood for, but
rag, to you and me, because wecome from project, program,
operations, management, it'sred, amber, green, red, yellow,
green, like, what's the statusof the project? What's the rag
for that? Right? Now, with theworld of AI, rag means something
altogether different, right? Sounderstanding what do you mean
(05:58):
by rag is really important as an
Amanda Jane Lee (06:01):
Yeah, I was when you said rag, I was like,
Oh, is it? Yeah? Is it red,amber, green, or is it what it
means in AI, right?
Indra Klavins (06:09):
Again, I can't remember, but somebody look it
up. I might. I'll throw it intoour glossary so that everyone
knows the other rag too. I'llput the two rag definitions,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:18):
yeah, for for me, what you know, I can't think
of anything off the top of myhead either, except for one
organization I worked for usethe word blocker in a strange
way, like I was on a meeting,and they're like, oh, you know,
like the this particular thingis a blocker. And when I asked
more questions, yeah, I waslike, this isn't really a
(06:41):
blocker. It's a dependency onanother team. And they were
like, No, it's a blocker. It'sblocking me from doing work. And
I'm like, No, but you're doingwork like you can proceed. You
are doing work. It's notblocking you. There's this
discussion.
Indra Klavins (07:00):
Right order of operations is not a blocker, to
me, correct, a blocker is ablocker. Could be when the order
of operations does not happen onschedule, that could become a
blocker, because now it'ssomething you weren't planning
for. It is not like the normal,typical flow of things, but a
blocker is something youcouldn't like. Just halt all
work from stopping orproceeding, yeah, yeah, yeah. So
(07:23):
interesting. So, okay, so words.So words are one thing that you
want to make sure that you youdo in your first 90 days. I
think that the other thing thatyou were sort of alluding to is
it's your first time being whenyou were saying you it's like,
it's your first chance to make afirst impression, right? It's
your only chance to make thatfirst impression as well, in
(07:44):
addition to asking somefoundational, fundamental
questions that may actually notbe clear to everybody in the
organization, BT Dubs, but theybut there is that first chance
to brand yourself as a personand set that so you have, I know
that you have certain strategiesyou use for doing them?
Amanda Jane Lee (08:02):
Yeah, um, what I like to do when I first join
an organization is, I'll, I'llask around, and I'll ask my
manager, like, is there? Like,who should I meet? Right? Who
should I start building theserelationships with? And once I
have that list, I will, I willset up a one on one, like
(08:23):
coffee, chat with each person onthat list, and I'll even throw
in the agenda here. You know,this can be casual. This can be
about work. Like, this is a verycasual, no pressure, like, I
just want to meet you. Yeah, Ijust want to meet you, because
we'll be working together.Because I know some people might
(08:45):
be like, Oh, who's this newgirl? Like, what are we going to
talk about? She's going to grillme on, like, what I do every
day. So I'll set the tone there,and I will just, you know, I'll
do my little intro tour, so tospeak, I'll meet the people who
I'll be working with, you know,whether that's engineers on the
(09:07):
team or, like, go to marketpeople, or, you know, whoever my
manager or others think I shouldmeet For whatever reason, and
that's my opportunity tointroduce myself, introduce what
I do, introduce how I'm supposedto, like how, how I will be
(09:28):
helping the organization startto field the questions and the
pain points dependent, like,I'll suss it out, right? But
there were some introconversations where, like, I've
joined an organization, and Iwas, I was hired to solve
(09:49):
specific problems in my first 90days, so I'll take that and I'll
run with it, and I'll be like,hey, you know I heard from so
and so that you've been heresince the beginning. And. Like,
know, all of the pain points.And, you know, work with this,
work on this project every day.Like, how can I help you? And
(10:09):
like, that's my opportunity tomake that first impression. I'm
like, I'm your ally. I'm nothere to, like, check boxes or,
you know, or spy on you orwhatever.
Indra Klavins (10:21):
Yeah, I love that. And it's like, bringing us
back to the previous point of,like, asking the foundational
questions. I usually ask twoquestions in those like, I call
it a listening tour, same, same.And so I put two offers out on
the table. The first is, youknow, if you could wave a magic
(10:42):
wand, and there's one thing thatyou would have me in my role,
with my capacity handle or dealwith or resolve, what would it
be? Because that gives them,gives people permission to go
off of the regular script, whichI kind of love. But the second
question, which is the one thatbrings us back to the previous
topic, is, what, what is afoundational question that you
(11:03):
wish you could answer ask in aroom, but you're not able to
that. I can ask on your behalf.I won't out you, I promise. But
what question would you want meto surface
Amanda Jane Lee (11:13):
with that version of that question too?
And it it is really interestingto see people's response to that
question, yeah, 100%
Indra Klavins (11:24):
and you know, the thing that I will say about this
like two things might come tomind for people when they think
about these listening tours, orthese one on one tours, or
whatever it might be, get toknow you tours, they are very
time consuming, both for you andthe other person. So keep in
mind respecting that otherperson's time, I usually try and
do it around their schedule. Belike, Oh, this is a huge favor
(11:45):
to me. I really, reallyappreciate but I wanted to make
it worth your while. You know,it's not just about me, it's
about you and unlockingsomething. So that's a
positioning statement. But theother thing, which is insanely
true, and for some reason, my wework role, is coming to my mind.
You will never have as much timeto have that many one on ones as
you do in your first like twoweeks, because they haven't
(12:06):
figured out which meetings topull you into. They haven't
figured out how to like, even ifthey know logically like
retraining that muscle memorytakes a second, right? So you
have a lot more time to in yourday to be able to do that. So
take advantage of those firstcouple of weeks. Don't get a if
they say no and they push backbecause, like, they're going to
have their schedules, unlessit's like, I have to meet with
(12:27):
you, because I am directlysupporting you. Thank you so
much. But, you know, takeadvantage of that, that quiet
time that you have. So, youknow, pulling together that
glossary of terms, which, evenif they have a glossary of
terms, I'm sure it's incomplete,and your stuff will augment it.
So there's that. That's thefirst one for that's the first
one for the first 90 days, whichwe've talked about in the past.
Second one is a listening tourand going through all of that.
(12:50):
Let's continue down the threadof people organizational charts,
if so, so, if you are so lucky,you know, and they're they come
in so many different shapes andforms for all sorts of different
purposes, but I have yet to meetan organization. I'm just trying
to really go through all of themthat that has, it's rare, I'll
(13:14):
say it's rare for anorganization to have a org chart
that explains all their businessfunctions. So, like, that's at
the organization level. Like,really, clearly and well, for
somebody who's coming in netnew, like, it makes sense to
someone who's been thereforever, but it may not make
somebody who's green to thatorganization. So like, there's
organization charts, and thenthere's, like, literally, like,
(13:36):
reporting structures. Like, Ihave not found stuff that's
really useful for a first timer,often in my career. Great.
Amanda Jane Lee (13:44):
I don't I'm going through my history, my job
history, and like, the orgcharts that existed at each job.
And I agree with you what I'veused, the actual, you know,
company provided org chart for,usually
Indra Klavins (14:00):
out of the HR system,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:02):
yeah, which is usually out of the HR system, is
to figure out who's a peerversus the organizational
hierarchy, okay? But in termsof, you know, titles, a lot of
titles don't have that context,right, like I'm thinking of, you
know, software engineeringmanagers. Usually their titles
(14:23):
are software engineering manageror a software engineering
manager too, and like, nocontext about what team they
lead, what business functionsthey play, like, what systems
they what systems they work in,or their teams work in, and
like, those are usually my firstquestions when I meet with those
people like, you know, just sothat we're we're clear, can we
(14:47):
level set like, what is yourteam responsible for? Well, and
Indra Klavins (14:51):
even who is on your team? Because, you know, to
your point, the HR systems are,are set up in such a way to
support all the things. Thingsthat HR needs to be able to
support, which is making surethat titles are leveled, etc,
etc. Reporting structures arenobody is over indexes too many
or not enough direct reports,right? It's it's done in such a
(15:11):
way to function really well, butit may not be. It is unlikely to
be the way that the organizationoperates, right? Because most
functions, like some functions,are really clear and dedicated,
usually on the business side ofthings, things can be really
clear, like, Oh, they're a partof this line of business. They
part of this function, and it'ssuper clear. Maybe in a sales
(15:31):
organization, that might be thecase, right? I don't you know,
certain organizations might havethat, but a whole lot of others
are matrix across theorganization. They might sit in
technology, they may sit indesign, they may sit in, you
know, operations. They may sitin a PMO structure. They may sit
in a lot of things. And whothey're assigned out to and work
(15:51):
with on a day to day basis willbe much different. So
understanding how, like, whatsomebody works on is really,
really different than reportingstructures. Yeah, for sure, and
that's why, and that's why,because caring for someone's
career is a different thing thanhelping to get the project done.
They can be the same, butthey're not always the same,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:12):
right, especially with, you know, very
cross functional projects,right? Like, you're gonna need
somebody on design. You're gonnaneed somebody, you're gonna need
engineering teams. You're gonnaneed, you know, a specific go to
market person, and all of thelike those three people that
I've just named, all havedifferent managers, and you
can't figure out that they'reall working on the same project.
(16:34):
Just by looking at the HR orgchart.
Indra Klavins (16:36):
You can't. And so my tactic when I create these,
hey, I'm just drawing thispicture of an org chart for
myself so I understand, like,who's working on what. Don't
worry. It's not official. It'sjust my way of understanding the
organization. Is my thinkingright on this? Am I
understanding how people areworking on a day to day basis?
That what that does that longsetup, it's a very long setup,
(17:00):
but what it does is it takesdown everyone's guard around
stuff, because I'm sure that,like, there's lots of different
things that can can gettriggered for people, but one of
the things that gets triggeredlike, Oh no, not another org
chart. That's wrong. I can'thave another org chart. Don't
worry, I'm not publishing itanywhere. It's okay, right? This
(17:20):
is not sharing this with anyone,if you want it, I'll give it to
you. Like, I'm not hoarding myinformation, right? Because you
don't want to have that kind oflike, you know, like, you know,
that type of mentality. We'reall we're both knowledge
sharers, not knowledge hoarders,right? But, you know, like, but
so that they don't see this assomething that can displace,
something that or can upsettheir world, right? But you want
(17:44):
to make sure that it's right.So, like, that's the way that I
couch whatever. I share one ofmy pictures that I've created,
and if they love it, I'm like,Hey, you want to make it
official? Great, fantastic.You're a person who's allowed to
make it official. Love thateveryone wins, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (17:56):
Or if you just want to keep it at, you know,
for your own notes, because it'shelpful. Cool, yeah, 100%
Indra Klavins (18:03):
and, and, like, all of this that you're talking
about, like, by working out inthe open, it kind of builds your
brand. It kind of builds yourbrand as a helper, right? It
builds your brand as somebodywho accepts feedback and wants
collaboration, assuming thatthat's the way that you want to
present yourself. Like, we'reboth in that kind of mindset,
right? And I think a lot of ourlisteners are as well, yeah. How
(18:24):
do you bring that forth? And itstarts to paint your brand as a
person, which you've had in afew episodes. Of the different
types of ways that you can paintyourself in your brand, like,
that's one way of setting thatacross the organization,
Amanda Jane Lee (18:37):
right, leading with curiosity, if you want that
to be part of your brand. Like,this, is this is a good way to
do it. Yeah.
Indra Klavins (18:44):
So on your listing tours like one of the
other things, that's the phrase,bring your whole self to work,
came to mind. I absolutely hatethat phase, which is probably a
whole nother episode, justbecause I don't I think it's
often disingenuous, but, but thereality of it is that every
organization, and the reason Ithink is it's disingenuous is
every organization, everyorganization has a culture,
(19:04):
every organization has certainnorms, every organization has
the things that make it feelcomfortable for the people that
work there and learning that isa real is, is something that you
know? Yes, it is in thehandbook. Yes, there's a vision
and values. Yes, there's thelike onboarding of like what?
What do we value? Like that. Yougo through all that HR stuff,
right? It's, they've all gotone, right? Which is accurate,
(19:28):
but it often. It paints the itpaints the main brush strokes of
the painting of the culture. Itdoesn't give you a lot of the
shading.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:40):
That's a great metaphor.
Indra Klavins (19:43):
I think it came to me. It came to me. I love, I
love a good painting metaphorevery once in a while, but, but
that's figuring out anorganization's culture can be
really hard, but the way whatyou talked about earlier around
those one on ones is a great wayto suss out, like, what is the
culture really in thisorganization? Right?
Amanda Jane Lee (20:00):
And you know, not just on one on ones, but any
meetings that you're invited to.You know, going back to your
listening tour, phrasing, right?Just listen, observe, figure out
like pay attention to who'stalking, who people defer to
(20:22):
what names come up often, right?Like, oh, you know Jack, we need
to check with Jack, right? Like,Jack will know the most about
this and just take notes.
Indra Klavins (20:34):
And I think it's so important to for the first
like, let's say two, threesessions of a particular
meeting. Type it is to be asobservant as possible, even when
you're at the higher levels ofan organization, when you're
expected to pontificate. I thinkit's really worthwhile figuring
out how to bite your tongue, siton your hands, you know,
(20:55):
whatever you need to do toreally take it in and understand
the dynamics. Because when I wasat we work, we work, we were
Blitzscaling, so just hypergrowth of an organization, you
know, just I'll put, I'll drop adefinition into our glossary of
blitz scaling. But in for thisparticular story, for this
particular context, we wereonboarding. I was onboarding. I
(21:18):
was onboarding new seniormanagers and directors in
engineering, and managers andengineering every single week
into the organization, and theywere all coming in hot. They
were all coming in hot trying toprove their value. And I
understand the reason why peoplecome in hot, because you're
like, hey, they're paying me agood salary. Hey, I want to see
(21:41):
this thing succeed. Hey, hey,hey, all these heys. But when
you come in hot, and especiallywhen it's in an organization, it
can be true of anything. Buthere, when it was happening,
literally every week, I had anew person pointing out the same
exact problem every single weekto me, right? Every single week,
(22:02):
and their observations were notwrong, but that's where I came
up with a different metaphor. SoI'm like, I'm like, You're
pointing out all the low hangingfruit. Love that, right? I
totally understand why you'reyou're pointing out all the low
hanging fruit. Can I tell youthat low hanging fruit has been
hanging on that branch for Xamount of period of time, and
there's a reason that thatbranch has not been touched.
That thing is full of hornets.And let me tell you about the
(22:24):
Hornets that are inside of thatapple that's on that low hanging
fruit of a tree like they don'tnecessarily, if you don't take
that beat to learn about theculture, learn about the
dynamics, learn about all ofthat, you're going to be
pointing out low hanging fruitthat no one has the patience to
hear about because they've heardabout it. In that case, it was
(22:45):
every week. And again, I learnedI've got a decent, I forgot, a
pretty decent patience muscle,muscle so I knew how to handle
it and direct their energy intobetter places. But not everyone
does, you know, like, it's thatyou need to be able to figure
that out, like, oh, that's whythey're not touching that fruit.
They all see the fruit. Theyknow the fruit is there. They
wish the fruit was gone. Theycan't deal with the fruit for
(23:06):
for reasons. Let me find themout in a quiet corner, rather
than hot in the middle of a
Amanda Jane Lee (23:11):
meeting, right? They all know that there, there
is a hornet's nest that youcan't see. But, yeah, I think
you know that's a really goodpoint of on your listening tour,
your goal should be to gathercontext, right, gather
information. Just get the lay ofthe land.
Indra Klavins (23:31):
Get the lay of the land and draw your
proverbial map of theorganization. The org chart
being one of them, the dynamicsbeing another one, the, you
know, technical architecture,like I always I often create, no
matter what my role is, I oftencreate, like, logical technical
architectures for my ownconsumption. Like, oh, what's
happening, where and how? Like,create all those things. Create
your create your maps and figureout how to how you can navigate
(23:56):
throughout the organization,orient yourself within the
organization. Like, what did wesay and we had a different
conversation around this? It'sorienteering, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (24:05):
Yeah, it's orienteering during your
orientation,
Indra Klavins (24:09):
during your orientation. So it's a
different, same, same, like,same root word, right? But think
about it as orienting yourself,not just the way that HR and you
know, leaders, which is, again,another important orientation
portion, but there's otherstuff.
Amanda Jane Lee (24:26):
Yeah, if we're continuing the metaphor of
orienteering, it's like drawingyour own maps, right, like it
is, as you're if you weresaying, like your architecture
diagrams, like, I like to make,you know, I like to use post its
right. Like, I like to write,like, steps of a workflow. And
like, as I talk to a new personand learn new information, I'll
either add more post its or,like, move post its around. And
(24:48):
then, you know, when I think Ihave a decent picture, I'll
like, sanity check that withsomebody. But it's just like
learning, learning the culture,the context, the everything of.
Your new organization?
Indra Klavins (25:01):
Yeah, and you know, I'm, I'm repeating myself
a little bit here, but it's theway that you phrased that was
really good, because it doesn'tassume that your version is the
best version. Because there arereasons that the the other maps
that exist of the organizationexist today, right? Like I live
in New York City, and we justredid this past this year, we've
(25:24):
redone our subway maps. A lot ofcontroversy around that. You
know, locals, locals are veryupset, but the maps were done. I
think that. I think theassessment is that the maps are
done really to help people whoare new to the city, or tourists
in the city, but those of us whohave been here for more than a
minute are like, Oh, I missed myold one because they gave me
(25:44):
this, that and the other thing,but two maps, two different
reasons, two differentaudiences, and one might be just
more important to have on thatwall for X, Y and Z reasons.
They may not make sense to you,but you can still have yours on
the side. I still have my oldsubway maps hanging out because
I'm not gonna I'm not gettingrid of those. I need them,
right?
Amanda Jane Lee (26:02):
Like, I mean, I live in Colorado, right? I've
seen all kinds of differentmaps. Like, usually one of that
shows you the topography of anarea, yeah. And, like, I'm not a
mountaineering person, like,okay, that's nice to know. But,
like, I want to know what roadsexist there so that I can drive
there,
Indra Klavins (26:21):
or hiking trails, or, you know, like different
things. And that's like, GoogleMaps gives you all those lovely
overlays, which, 90% of the timeI keep them all off, but they're
there for good reasons. They'rethere for good reasons.
Unknown (26:32):
So, different maps for different reasons? Yeah, I'd say
the,
Indra Klavins (26:37):
I think the last major thing before we start
talking about it like acompletely different dimension
is making sure that we've, we'vewoven it into all this stuff so
far, but is checking in withpeople along the way to make
sure that you're you'reorienting yourself really well
in the organization. You'regetting started on stuff at the
right time. Constantly check inwith your onboarding buddy or
(26:59):
your or your people manager, oryour team lead, or whatever, to
make sure that you're on trackto success. You know, because
there will be stuff that's inyour 3060, 90 day plan, but
there's also a lot of unspokenstuff that's there, so making
sure that you're checking inwith them, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (27:15):
just to make sure that you that your map,
that the maps that you'redrawing, are accurate, right?
That they're accurate 100%
Indra Klavins (27:24):
100% but I think that, like all of this stuff,
especially the checking in,becomes even more important when
we're talking about remotecultures. My father's example
from the beginning was a was anIRL experience from like the
70s, probably right? So very,very different. Now in a remote
world, I think that it canmaking sure that you have enough
(27:45):
of those feedback loops when youare in a remote first culture is
really, really important, andcan be a lot harder. And so give
yourself grace when you're on.You have to put in a little bit
more effort, and you have togive yourself a little bit more
grace when you're
Amanda Jane Lee (27:58):
onboarding remotely. Yeah, what comes to
mind immediately for everyremote company, for every
company where I've had toonboard remotely slack, it's
just figuring out how teamscommunicate with each other, how
teams communicate status andinformation to other teams,
(28:22):
what, what channels exist, whatlike, what, what that
communication mapping lookslike?
Indra Klavins (28:30):
I love that, and it's it's even true for like,
even if you're in a in personrole and you have a global team
or multiple office offices,finding the slack, finding the
team's channels, finding theintranet, finding all the
different ways that informationflows in your organization. And
watching those and understandingthem is really, really useful,
because the reality of it is,I'm, I feel like I'm spelunking
(28:53):
when I'm in a new role. Like,I'll find them. Like, oh, I
found this. Is this real? Oh,that should have been taken down
three years ago. Okay, great.Like, I saw this in this
channel, where they're activelychatting about X, Y and Z.
They're like, Oh, they like, Iforgot about that. Like, you
know, like, you learn an awfullot about things when you are
exploring. Don't, don't be acreeper. Like, let's not be
creepers. Let's be explorer.It's important. There is a
(29:18):
differentiation, like explorerswho are generous and are not
trying to colonize don't try andcolonize the team's channels, in
the Slack channel, then don'ttry and creep on them. Try and
become a member of thecommunity. Yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (29:32):
What the specific example that comes to
mind? And this has happened tome a lot. I'll be invited to
like the team channel, and theyreference a message that's in
another channel that I don'thave access to. So it just says,
like, private message. And soI'll ask somebody, like, hey,
(29:52):
you know so and so referencethis message and like, had
questions about it, but I can'tsee the original message. Such
Is this a channel that I shouldbe part of too?
Indra Klavins (30:04):
Yeah, I think for me, I It's so funny. I It's so
funny trying to thread theneedle. It's something I
struggle with in my career, whento be confident and when to
take, like, a slightly softerapproach. Mine is usually, can
you grab me a screenshot of thatso I can see it? And then
they'll invite me into the chat.Like, oh, I should invite you
there. Like, Oh, okay. Like,it's same, same different,
(30:24):
right? Like, two pads to thesame result. Like, I think I
need to be in there
Amanda Jane Lee (30:30):
to be in there. And, yeah, you know, people are
different, right? Teams aredifferent based on what you've
learned about the organizationand the team so far. Yeah, maybe
you adjust your approachaccordingly. Yeah, 100% 100%
Indra Klavins (30:45):
we've covered a lot of good ground. Anything
else that comes to mind for you?Like, I think it's like, you
know, do the same stuff thatwe've talked about across a lot
of episodes, but like, do itwith more space and
intentionally, was gathering,gathering terminology, creating
organizational documents anddiagrams to help support you,
but validate them and share themwhen it makes sense. You know,
(31:06):
like, don't come in too darnhot, please. You know, like,
that's it doesn't work for a lotof us, coming in that darn hot,
right? You know, giving yourselfgrace. You know, giving other
people Grace along the way,right?
Amanda Jane Lee (31:21):
Building those relationships, building starting
to build your your brand at thiscompany,
Indra Klavins (31:27):
build your brand, build your reputation, build
your brand from two differentthings but same, the very
intertwined, the Venn diagram isstrong. The Venn diagram is
strong. We talked about that nottoo long ago. Amanda, thank you
for yet another rich and lovelyconversation. And I think that
people will have gottensomething good out of it, you
(31:47):
know, or at least they will feelseen and validated, which to me
is sometimes just so useful whenI'm listening to podcasts or
listening to conversations. Sothank you everyone for
listening, and I hope you joinus next time when we cover
another topic from the messy
Unknown (32:02):
middle Bye, bye.
Indra Klavins (32:11):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
word of mouth remains mostpowerful way for people to find
us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it
if you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
(32:31):
feedback form at the messymiddle matters.com or in the
show notes. Thank you forjoining us on this journey, this
work is better when we do ittogether. Until next time you.
Hi, I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone, today,we're going to be talking about
getting started in a new role,like those first 90 days, you
know, and not just the stuffthat you know everybody knows to
(00:27):
do, like my father used to givethe advice on the first day of
any job, the three things that Iwould need to get sorted out,
beyond all the HR stuff to makesure I got paid, was figure out
where the coffee machine is,figure out where the bathroom
is, and figure out where theemergency exits are, that every
single job and so, like, there'scertain things that are on your
(00:47):
to do checklist, and certainthings that you know are not on
your to do checklist, but arereally good best practices. So
today, Amanda's gonna be talkingto me about this one. It's I'm
excited about it. I'm excitedabout it, exploring beyond,
beyond the standard stuff thatwe usually, that everyone tends
to
Amanda Jane Lee (01:06):
do, yeah, and can I just say that your
father's advice, like thosethree things, like, on point
completely.
Indra Klavins (01:14):
I mean, he was a little bit more paranoid. You
can see what he valued most inlife, like, just the
practicalities of things. But healso had this thing. He's, he's,
he's now deceased, so, you know,and I don't think he'd be upset
over this story. He also worriedabout which floor of a building
he was on, because he alwaysworked in Manhattan, and so he
was always making sure that thewhatever he possible, he would
(01:34):
be on a low floor, so thatevacuation would be easier,
right? Yeah, viewers to walkdown Yeah, life, practicalities
of life, which I think applybeyond Manhattan, but anyway,
yeah, so, Amanda, you and I haveonboarded into more than one
organization over the course ofour careers. And you know, I
(01:56):
think we've got, we've got awhole bunch of different things
that we're going to share witheveryone today about the stuff
that have helped us succeed,that are that are beyond that,
because there is the, you know,like I said, making sure that
you get everything set up to getyour paycheck through, making
sure that you can log into yourcomputers, making sure all your
devices work like there's justso much of that it feels like A
(02:20):
slog. It's a necessary slug.Even in the best onboarding I've
had, which actually was at thecompany that you and I worked
at, automotive, which totallymakes sense, given what they
specialize in, that was probablythe mood is technical
onboarding. But there's beensome bumpy ones. But beyond
that, you know like it is whatmakes you successful because it
(02:41):
is your introduction to a neworganization, a new set of
people. Even if you know some ofthem already from a past role,
it's a brand new environment, soyou're going to know them in a
different
Amanda Jane Lee (02:51):
way totally. Yeah, I'm thinking of advice
that I got from, I don't evenknow who, but it's you only get
to be new once and like though,that's why those first 90 days
are so important. Like you, youare giving the your first
(03:12):
impressions to everyone youit's, it's your opportunity to
ask what could be simplequestions, right? But like, you
can I always like to, oh, I'mplaying the new girl card. Like,
can you explain this to me?
Indra Klavins (03:27):
Yeah, no, I think that that's absolutely right.
And this, this will shift andchange depending on your role,
depending on your career stage,depending on all that. So take
all that within context. Pullthe things that are really
useful for you, add your ownstuff to the stuff that we're
talking about, but 100% youknow, like it is when you are
new to an organization, it isthe it's it's the only time that
(03:51):
you can ask questions withoutassuming that you know the
answers. And like my favoriteway to ask a question whether
I'm new to a project, new to anorganization, new to whatever
is. I just want to make sure.And this goes back to our first
episode, Words matter. I justgot some new words matter
sticker. So if you see me in thewild, find me. They, they. I
(04:14):
always say, like, I know whatthese words mean to me, but what
do they mean in the context ofthis organization? Right?
Because that it really there isa lot of nuance. So like, let's
start with vocabulary, becausethat's one of our favorite
things to talk about. I didn'tknow we were going to start
there, but it is one of ourfavorite things to talk about.
Like, figuring out what do thosewords mean here in this
(04:38):
organization, it is worthwhileasking that foundational
question and not assuming thatyou know that you know that the
word means what, what it's meantfor you and every other company
you've worked for, because oftenenough like it'll sneak up on
you. You're like, whoa. How didthat happen?
Amanda Jane Lee (04:58):
Yeah, and even, even. Of words that or acronyms
or jargon that seems very likeknown across the industry may
not, may not mean the same thingor what you think it does in
that particular organization.
Indra Klavins (05:16):
100% I wish I could remember what it was
yesterday. I was at apresentation. It was focused on,
it was like it was a networkingevent, which was focused on AI.
And they used an acronym that isvery familiar. Everywhere else
in the world is something else.And they Oh, no, you notice,
you'll like this one. It was ragR, A G. And I cannot remember
(05:37):
off the top of my head what r ag means. I remember the
definition. I don't rememberwhat the word stood for, but
rag, to you and me, because wecome from project, program,
operations, management, it'sred, amber, green, red, yellow,
green, like, what's the statusof the project? What's the rag
for that? Right? Now, with theworld of AI, rag means something
altogether different, right? Sounderstanding what do you mean
(05:58):
by rag is really important as an
Amanda Jane Lee (06:01):
Yeah, I was when you said rag, I was like,
Oh, is it? Yeah? Is it red,amber, green, or is it what it
means in AI, right?
Indra Klavins (06:09):
Again, I can't remember, but somebody look it
up. I might. I'll throw it intoour glossary so that everyone
knows the other rag too. I'llput the two rag definitions,
Amanda Jane Lee (06:18):
yeah, for for me, what you know, I can't think
of anything off the top of myhead either, except for one
organization I worked for usethe word blocker in a strange
way, like I was on a meeting,and they're like, oh, you know,
like the this particular thingis a blocker. And when I asked
more questions, yeah, I waslike, this isn't really a
(06:41):
blocker. It's a dependency onanother team. And they were
like, No, it's a blocker. It'sblocking me from doing work. And
I'm like, No, but you're doingwork like you can proceed. You
are doing work. It's notblocking you. There's this
discussion.
Indra Klavins (07:00):
Right order of operations is not a blocker, to
me, correct, a blocker is ablocker. Could be when the order
of operations does not happen onschedule, that could become a
blocker, because now it'ssomething you weren't planning
for. It is not like the normal,typical flow of things, but a
blocker is something youcouldn't like. Just halt all
work from stopping orproceeding, yeah, yeah, yeah. So
(07:23):
interesting. So, okay, so words.So words are one thing that you
want to make sure that you youdo in your first 90 days. I
think that the other thing thatyou were sort of alluding to is
it's your first time being whenyou were saying you it's like,
it's your first chance to make afirst impression, right? It's
your only chance to make thatfirst impression as well, in
(07:44):
addition to asking somefoundational, fundamental
questions that may actually notbe clear to everybody in the
organization, BT Dubs, but theybut there is that first chance
to brand yourself as a personand set that so you have, I know
that you have certain strategiesyou use for doing them?
Amanda Jane Lee (08:02):
Yeah, um, what I like to do when I first join
an organization is, I'll, I'llask around, and I'll ask my
manager, like, is there? Like,who should I meet? Right? Who
should I start building theserelationships with? And once I
have that list, I will, I willset up a one on one, like
(08:23):
coffee, chat with each person onthat list, and I'll even throw
in the agenda here. You know,this can be casual. This can be
about work. Like, this is a verycasual, no pressure, like, I
just want to meet you. Yeah, Ijust want to meet you, because
we'll be working together.Because I know some people might
(08:45):
be like, Oh, who's this newgirl? Like, what are we going to
talk about? She's going to grillme on, like, what I do every
day. So I'll set the tone there,and I will just, you know, I'll
do my little intro tour, so tospeak, I'll meet the people who
I'll be working with, you know,whether that's engineers on the
(09:07):
team or, like, go to marketpeople, or, you know, whoever my
manager or others think I shouldmeet For whatever reason, and
that's my opportunity tointroduce myself, introduce what
I do, introduce how I'm supposedto, like how, how I will be
(09:28):
helping the organization startto field the questions and the
pain points dependent, like,I'll suss it out, right? But
there were some introconversations where, like, I've
joined an organization, and Iwas, I was hired to solve
(09:49):
specific problems in my first 90days, so I'll take that and I'll
run with it, and I'll be like,hey, you know I heard from so
and so that you've been heresince the beginning. And. Like,
know, all of the pain points.And, you know, work with this,
work on this project every day.Like, how can I help you? And
(10:09):
like, that's my opportunity tomake that first impression. I'm
like, I'm your ally. I'm nothere to, like, check boxes or,
you know, or spy on you orwhatever.
Indra Klavins (10:21):
Yeah, I love that. And it's like, bringing us
back to the previous point of,like, asking the foundational
questions. I usually ask twoquestions in those like, I call
it a listening tour, same, same.And so I put two offers out on
the table. The first is, youknow, if you could wave a magic
(10:42):
wand, and there's one thing thatyou would have me in my role,
with my capacity handle or dealwith or resolve, what would it
be? Because that gives them,gives people permission to go
off of the regular script, whichI kind of love. But the second
question, which is the one thatbrings us back to the previous
topic, is, what, what is afoundational question that you
(11:03):
wish you could answer ask in aroom, but you're not able to
that. I can ask on your behalf.I won't out you, I promise. But
what question would you want meto surface
Amanda Jane Lee (11:13):
with that version of that question too?
And it it is really interestingto see people's response to that
question, yeah, 100%
Indra Klavins (11:24):
and you know, the thing that I will say about this
like two things might come tomind for people when they think
about these listening tours, orthese one on one tours, or
whatever it might be, get toknow you tours, they are very
time consuming, both for you andthe other person. So keep in
mind respecting that otherperson's time, I usually try and
do it around their schedule. Belike, Oh, this is a huge favor
(11:45):
to me. I really, reallyappreciate but I wanted to make
it worth your while. You know,it's not just about me, it's
about you and unlockingsomething. So that's a
positioning statement. But theother thing, which is insanely
true, and for some reason, my wework role, is coming to my mind.
You will never have as much timeto have that many one on ones as
you do in your first like twoweeks, because they haven't
(12:06):
figured out which meetings topull you into. They haven't
figured out how to like, even ifthey know logically like
retraining that muscle memorytakes a second, right? So you
have a lot more time to in yourday to be able to do that. So
take advantage of those firstcouple of weeks. Don't get a if
they say no and they push backbecause, like, they're going to
have their schedules, unlessit's like, I have to meet with
(12:27):
you, because I am directlysupporting you. Thank you so
much. But, you know, takeadvantage of that, that quiet
time that you have. So, youknow, pulling together that
glossary of terms, which, evenif they have a glossary of
terms, I'm sure it's incomplete,and your stuff will augment it.
So there's that. That's thefirst one for that's the first
one for the first 90 days, whichwe've talked about in the past.
Second one is a listening tourand going through all of that.
(12:50):
Let's continue down the threadof people organizational charts,
if so, so, if you are so lucky,you know, and they're they come
in so many different shapes andforms for all sorts of different
purposes, but I have yet to meetan organization. I'm just trying
to really go through all of themthat that has, it's rare, I'll
(13:14):
say it's rare for anorganization to have a org chart
that explains all their businessfunctions. So, like, that's at
the organization level. Like,really, clearly and well, for
somebody who's coming in netnew, like, it makes sense to
someone who's been thereforever, but it may not make
somebody who's green to thatorganization. So like, there's
organization charts, and thenthere's, like, literally, like,
(13:36):
reporting structures. Like, Ihave not found stuff that's
really useful for a first timer,often in my career. Great.
Amanda Jane Lee (13:44):
I don't I'm going through my history, my job
history, and like, the orgcharts that existed at each job.
And I agree with you what I'veused, the actual, you know,
company provided org chart for,usually
Indra Klavins (14:00):
out of the HR system,
Amanda Jane Lee (14:02):
yeah, which is usually out of the HR system, is
to figure out who's a peerversus the organizational
hierarchy, okay? But in termsof, you know, titles, a lot of
titles don't have that context,right, like I'm thinking of, you
know, software engineeringmanagers. Usually their titles
(14:23):
are software engineering manageror a software engineering
manager too, and like, nocontext about what team they
lead, what business functionsthey play, like, what systems
they what systems they work in,or their teams work in, and
like, those are usually my firstquestions when I meet with those
people like, you know, just sothat we're we're clear, can we
(14:47):
level set like, what is yourteam responsible for? Well, and
Indra Klavins (14:51):
even who is on your team? Because, you know, to
your point, the HR systems are,are set up in such a way to
support all the things. Thingsthat HR needs to be able to
support, which is making surethat titles are leveled, etc,
etc. Reporting structures arenobody is over indexes too many
or not enough direct reports,right? It's it's done in such a
(15:11):
way to function really well, butit may not be. It is unlikely to
be the way that the organizationoperates, right? Because most
functions, like some functions,are really clear and dedicated,
usually on the business side ofthings, things can be really
clear, like, Oh, they're a partof this line of business. They
part of this function, and it'ssuper clear. Maybe in a sales
(15:31):
organization, that might be thecase, right? I don't you know,
certain organizations might havethat, but a whole lot of others
are matrix across theorganization. They might sit in
technology, they may sit indesign, they may sit in, you
know, operations. They may sitin a PMO structure. They may sit
in a lot of things. And whothey're assigned out to and work
(15:51):
with on a day to day basis willbe much different. So
understanding how, like, whatsomebody works on is really,
really different than reportingstructures. Yeah, for sure, and
that's why, and that's why,because caring for someone's
career is a different thing thanhelping to get the project done.
They can be the same, butthey're not always the same,
Amanda Jane Lee (16:12):
right, especially with, you know, very
cross functional projects,right? Like, you're gonna need
somebody on design. You're gonnaneed somebody, you're gonna need
engineering teams. You're gonnaneed, you know, a specific go to
market person, and all of thelike those three people that
I've just named, all havedifferent managers, and you
can't figure out that they'reall working on the same project.
(16:34):
Just by looking at the HR orgchart.
Indra Klavins (16:36):
You can't. And so my tactic when I create these,
hey, I'm just drawing thispicture of an org chart for
myself so I understand, like,who's working on what. Don't
worry. It's not official. It'sjust my way of understanding the
organization. Is my thinkingright on this? Am I
understanding how people areworking on a day to day basis?
That what that does that longsetup, it's a very long setup,
(17:00):
but what it does is it takesdown everyone's guard around
stuff, because I'm sure that,like, there's lots of different
things that can can gettriggered for people, but one of
the things that gets triggeredlike, Oh no, not another org
chart. That's wrong. I can'thave another org chart. Don't
worry, I'm not publishing itanywhere. It's okay, right? This
(17:20):
is not sharing this with anyone,if you want it, I'll give it to
you. Like, I'm not hoarding myinformation, right? Because you
don't want to have that kind oflike, you know, like, you know,
that type of mentality. We'reall we're both knowledge
sharers, not knowledge hoarders,right? But, you know, like, but
so that they don't see this assomething that can displace,
something that or can upsettheir world, right? But you want
(17:44):
to make sure that it's right.So, like, that's the way that I
couch whatever. I share one ofmy pictures that I've created,
and if they love it, I'm like,Hey, you want to make it
official? Great, fantastic.You're a person who's allowed to
make it official. Love thateveryone wins, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (17:56):
Or if you just want to keep it at, you know,
for your own notes, because it'shelpful. Cool, yeah, 100%
Indra Klavins (18:03):
and, and, like, all of this that you're talking
about, like, by working out inthe open, it kind of builds your
brand. It kind of builds yourbrand as a helper, right? It
builds your brand as somebodywho accepts feedback and wants
collaboration, assuming thatthat's the way that you want to
present yourself. Like, we'reboth in that kind of mindset,
right? And I think a lot of ourlisteners are as well, yeah. How
(18:24):
do you bring that forth? And itstarts to paint your brand as a
person, which you've had in afew episodes. Of the different
types of ways that you can paintyourself in your brand, like,
that's one way of setting thatacross the organization,
Amanda Jane Lee (18:37):
right, leading with curiosity, if you want that
to be part of your brand. Like,this, is this is a good way to
do it. Yeah.
Indra Klavins (18:44):
So on your listing tours like one of the
other things, that's the phrase,bring your whole self to work,
came to mind. I absolutely hatethat phase, which is probably a
whole nother episode, justbecause I don't I think it's
often disingenuous, but, but thereality of it is that every
organization, and the reason Ithink is it's disingenuous is
every organization, everyorganization has a culture,
(19:04):
every organization has certainnorms, every organization has
the things that make it feelcomfortable for the people that
work there and learning that isa real is, is something that you
know? Yes, it is in thehandbook. Yes, there's a vision
and values. Yes, there's thelike onboarding of like what?
What do we value? Like that. Yougo through all that HR stuff,
right? It's, they've all gotone, right? Which is accurate,
(19:28):
but it often. It paints the itpaints the main brush strokes of
the painting of the culture. Itdoesn't give you a lot of the
shading.
Amanda Jane Lee (19:40):
That's a great metaphor.
Indra Klavins (19:43):
I think it came to me. It came to me. I love, I
love a good painting metaphorevery once in a while, but, but
that's figuring out anorganization's culture can be
really hard, but the way whatyou talked about earlier around
those one on ones is a great wayto suss out, like, what is the
culture really in thisorganization? Right?
Amanda Jane Lee (20:00):
And you know, not just on one on ones, but any
meetings that you're invited to.You know, going back to your
listening tour, phrasing, right?Just listen, observe, figure out
like pay attention to who'stalking, who people defer to
(20:22):
what names come up often, right?Like, oh, you know Jack, we need
to check with Jack, right? Like,Jack will know the most about
this and just take notes.
Indra Klavins (20:34):
And I think it's so important to for the first
like, let's say two, threesessions of a particular
meeting. Type it is to be asobservant as possible, even when
you're at the higher levels ofan organization, when you're
expected to pontificate. I thinkit's really worthwhile figuring
out how to bite your tongue, siton your hands, you know,
(20:55):
whatever you need to do toreally take it in and understand
the dynamics. Because when I wasat we work, we work, we were
Blitzscaling, so just hypergrowth of an organization, you
know, just I'll put, I'll drop adefinition into our glossary of
blitz scaling. But in for thisparticular story, for this
particular context, we wereonboarding. I was onboarding. I
(21:18):
was onboarding new seniormanagers and directors in
engineering, and managers andengineering every single week
into the organization, and theywere all coming in hot. They
were all coming in hot trying toprove their value. And I
understand the reason why peoplecome in hot, because you're
like, hey, they're paying me agood salary. Hey, I want to see
(21:41):
this thing succeed. Hey, hey,hey, all these heys. But when
you come in hot, and especiallywhen it's in an organization, it
can be true of anything. Buthere, when it was happening,
literally every week, I had anew person pointing out the same
exact problem every single weekto me, right? Every single week,
(22:02):
and their observations were notwrong, but that's where I came
up with a different metaphor. SoI'm like, I'm like, You're
pointing out all the low hangingfruit. Love that, right? I
totally understand why you'reyou're pointing out all the low
hanging fruit. Can I tell youthat low hanging fruit has been
hanging on that branch for Xamount of period of time, and
there's a reason that thatbranch has not been touched.
That thing is full of hornets.And let me tell you about the
(22:24):
Hornets that are inside of thatapple that's on that low hanging
fruit of a tree like they don'tnecessarily, if you don't take
that beat to learn about theculture, learn about the
dynamics, learn about all ofthat, you're going to be
pointing out low hanging fruitthat no one has the patience to
hear about because they've heardabout it. In that case, it was
(22:45):
every week. And again, I learnedI've got a decent, I forgot, a
pretty decent patience muscle,muscle so I knew how to handle
it and direct their energy intobetter places. But not everyone
does, you know, like, it's thatyou need to be able to figure
that out, like, oh, that's whythey're not touching that fruit.
They all see the fruit. Theyknow the fruit is there. They
wish the fruit was gone. Theycan't deal with the fruit for
(23:06):
for reasons. Let me find themout in a quiet corner, rather
than hot in the middle of a
Amanda Jane Lee (23:11):
meeting, right? They all know that there, there
is a hornet's nest that youcan't see. But, yeah, I think
you know that's a really goodpoint of on your listening tour,
your goal should be to gathercontext, right, gather
information. Just get the lay ofthe land.
Indra Klavins (23:31):
Get the lay of the land and draw your
proverbial map of theorganization. The org chart
being one of them, the dynamicsbeing another one, the, you
know, technical architecture,like I always I often create, no
matter what my role is, I oftencreate, like, logical technical
architectures for my ownconsumption. Like, oh, what's
happening, where and how? Like,create all those things. Create
your create your maps and figureout how to how you can navigate
(23:56):
throughout the organization,orient yourself within the
organization. Like, what did wesay and we had a different
conversation around this? It'sorienteering, right?
Amanda Jane Lee (24:05):
Yeah, it's orienteering during your
orientation,
Indra Klavins (24:09):
during your orientation. So it's a
different, same, same, like,same root word, right? But think
about it as orienting yourself,not just the way that HR and you
know, leaders, which is, again,another important orientation
portion, but there's otherstuff.
Amanda Jane Lee (24:26):
Yeah, if we're continuing the metaphor of
orienteering, it's like drawingyour own maps, right, like it
is, as you're if you weresaying, like your architecture
diagrams, like, I like to make,you know, I like to use post its
right. Like, I like to write,like, steps of a workflow. And
like, as I talk to a new personand learn new information, I'll
either add more post its or,like, move post its around. And
(24:48):
then, you know, when I think Ihave a decent picture, I'll
like, sanity check that withsomebody. But it's just like
learning, learning the culture,the context, the everything of.
Your new organization?
Indra Klavins (25:01):
Yeah, and you know, I'm, I'm repeating myself
a little bit here, but it's theway that you phrased that was
really good, because it doesn'tassume that your version is the
best version. Because there arereasons that the the other maps
that exist of the organizationexist today, right? Like I live
in New York City, and we justredid this past this year, we've
(25:24):
redone our subway maps. A lot ofcontroversy around that. You
know, locals, locals are veryupset, but the maps were done. I
think that. I think theassessment is that the maps are
done really to help people whoare new to the city, or tourists
in the city, but those of us whohave been here for more than a
minute are like, Oh, I missed myold one because they gave me
(25:44):
this, that and the other thing,but two maps, two different
reasons, two differentaudiences, and one might be just
more important to have on thatwall for X, Y and Z reasons.
They may not make sense to you,but you can still have yours on
the side. I still have my oldsubway maps hanging out because
I'm not gonna I'm not gettingrid of those. I need them,
right?
Amanda Jane Lee (26:02):
Like, I mean, I live in Colorado, right? I've
seen all kinds of differentmaps. Like, usually one of that
shows you the topography of anarea, yeah. And, like, I'm not a
mountaineering person, like,okay, that's nice to know. But,
like, I want to know what roadsexist there so that I can drive
there,
Indra Klavins (26:21):
or hiking trails, or, you know, like different
things. And that's like, GoogleMaps gives you all those lovely
overlays, which, 90% of the timeI keep them all off, but they're
there for good reasons. They'rethere for good reasons.
Unknown (26:32):
So, different maps for different reasons? Yeah, I'd say
the,
Indra Klavins (26:37):
I think the last major thing before we start
talking about it like acompletely different dimension
is making sure that we've, we'vewoven it into all this stuff so
far, but is checking in withpeople along the way to make
sure that you're you'reorienting yourself really well
in the organization. You'regetting started on stuff at the
right time. Constantly check inwith your onboarding buddy or
(26:59):
your or your people manager, oryour team lead, or whatever, to
make sure that you're on trackto success. You know, because
there will be stuff that's inyour 3060, 90 day plan, but
there's also a lot of unspokenstuff that's there, so making
sure that you're checking inwith them, yeah,
Amanda Jane Lee (27:15):
just to make sure that you that your map,
that the maps that you'redrawing, are accurate, right?
That they're accurate 100%
Indra Klavins (27:24):
100% but I think that, like all of this stuff,
especially the checking in,becomes even more important when
we're talking about remotecultures. My father's example
from the beginning was a was anIRL experience from like the
70s, probably right? So very,very different. Now in a remote
world, I think that it canmaking sure that you have enough
(27:45):
of those feedback loops when youare in a remote first culture is
really, really important, andcan be a lot harder. And so give
yourself grace when you're on.You have to put in a little bit
more effort, and you have togive yourself a little bit more
grace when you're
Amanda Jane Lee (27:58):
onboarding remotely. Yeah, what comes to
mind immediately for everyremote company, for every
company where I've had toonboard remotely slack, it's
just figuring out how teamscommunicate with each other, how
teams communicate status andinformation to other teams,
(28:22):
what, what channels exist, whatlike, what, what that
communication mapping lookslike?
Indra Klavins (28:30):
I love that, and it's it's even true for like,
even if you're in a in personrole and you have a global team
or multiple office offices,finding the slack, finding the
team's channels, finding theintranet, finding all the
different ways that informationflows in your organization. And
watching those and understandingthem is really, really useful,
because the reality of it is,I'm, I feel like I'm spelunking
(28:53):
when I'm in a new role. Like,I'll find them. Like, oh, I
found this. Is this real? Oh,that should have been taken down
three years ago. Okay, great.Like, I saw this in this
channel, where they're activelychatting about X, Y and Z.
They're like, Oh, they like, Iforgot about that. Like, you
know, like, you learn an awfullot about things when you are
exploring. Don't, don't be acreeper. Like, let's not be
creepers. Let's be explorer.It's important. There is a
(29:18):
differentiation, like explorerswho are generous and are not
trying to colonize don't try andcolonize the team's channels, in
the Slack channel, then don'ttry and creep on them. Try and
become a member of thecommunity. Yeah.
Amanda Jane Lee (29:32):
What the specific example that comes to
mind? And this has happened tome a lot. I'll be invited to
like the team channel, and theyreference a message that's in
another channel that I don'thave access to. So it just says,
like, private message. And soI'll ask somebody, like, hey,
(29:52):
you know so and so referencethis message and like, had
questions about it, but I can'tsee the original message. Such
Is this a channel that I shouldbe part of too?
Indra Klavins (30:04):
Yeah, I think for me, I It's so funny. I It's so
funny trying to thread theneedle. It's something I
struggle with in my career, whento be confident and when to
take, like, a slightly softerapproach. Mine is usually, can
you grab me a screenshot of thatso I can see it? And then
they'll invite me into the chat.Like, oh, I should invite you
there. Like, Oh, okay. Like,it's same, same different,
(30:24):
right? Like, two pads to thesame result. Like, I think I
need to be in there
Amanda Jane Lee (30:30):
to be in there. And, yeah, you know, people are
different, right? Teams aredifferent based on what you've
learned about the organizationand the team so far. Yeah, maybe
you adjust your approachaccordingly. Yeah, 100% 100%
Indra Klavins (30:45):
we've covered a lot of good ground. Anything
else that comes to mind for you?Like, I think it's like, you
know, do the same stuff thatwe've talked about across a lot
of episodes, but like, do itwith more space and
intentionally, was gathering,gathering terminology, creating
organizational documents anddiagrams to help support you,
but validate them and share themwhen it makes sense. You know,
(31:06):
like, don't come in too darnhot, please. You know, like,
that's it doesn't work for a lotof us, coming in that darn hot,
right? You know, giving yourselfgrace. You know, giving other
people Grace along the way,right?
Amanda Jane Lee (31:21):
Building those relationships, building starting
to build your your brand at thiscompany,
Indra Klavins (31:27):
build your brand, build your reputation, build
your brand from two differentthings but same, the very
intertwined, the Venn diagram isstrong. The Venn diagram is
strong. We talked about that nottoo long ago. Amanda, thank you
for yet another rich and lovelyconversation. And I think that
people will have gottensomething good out of it, you
(31:47):
know, or at least they will feelseen and validated, which to me
is sometimes just so useful whenI'm listening to podcasts or
listening to conversations. Sothank you everyone for
listening, and I hope you joinus next time when we cover
another topic from the messy
Unknown (32:02):
middle Bye, bye.
Indra Klavins (32:11):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy middle
word of mouth remains mostpowerful way for people to find
us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it
if you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore? You can find our
(32:31):
feedback form at the messymiddle matters.com or in the
show notes. Thank you forjoining us on this journey, this
work is better when we do ittogether. Until next time you.
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