January 28, 2026 • 29 mins
In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra Klavins sits down with Rachel Saslaw, product marketing director and founder of NYC’s storytelling community StoryTell, to explore the messy middle of career, purpose, and identity.
Rachel shares her journey of balancing a corporate career with a passion project, protecting her creative space from the pressures of monetization, and navigating societal expectations around hustle culture and “following your passion.” They discuss how work can serve as a fuel for life rather than a constant source of striving, and how intentionality, radical permission to change your mind, and embracing a multifaceted identity can bring clarity, freedom, and fulfillment.
Key Takeaways:
- The messy middle often means balancing meaningful work with personal passions and financial stability.
- Work does not have to be your life’s calling; it can provide fuel for a life you love outside of the office.
- Saying “not for me (right now)” is a valid, intentional approach to career and passion projects.
- Preserving your passion requires setting boundaries and resisting the commodification of personal interests.
- Community and storytelling are powerful tools for empathy, belonging, and nuanced human connection.
- Identity is multi-faceted; your job title does not define your worth or your whole self.
- Experimentation and radical permission to change your mind allow flexibility and clarity in career decisions.
Follow Rachel and StoryTell:
- Rachel Saslaw on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/rachelsaslaw/
- Rachel’s Website: https://rachelsaslaw.com/
- StoryTell on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/storytellnyc
More on Indra and The Messy Middle Matters
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: http://messymiddlematters.com/feedback
- Indra’s Blog: http://peopleprocessthings.substack.com
- Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch http://messymiddlemerch.com
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Episode Transcript
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Indra Klavins (00:05):
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work.
So welcome. Thank you forjoining me. So happy to be here,
and why don't you tell everybodya little bit about yourself
before we dig in.
Rachel Saslaw (00:24):
Amazing. So I'm Rachel saslow. I am a product
marketing director at a techcompany, and I'm also a
community founder. I foundedStoryTell, which is a New York
City based community thatenables empathy, belonging and
connection among New Yorkersthrough personal storytelling.
(00:44):
And I have been navigating themessy middle of having a
corporate life and having apassion that people often ask,
why not turn that into abusiness? And I grapple with
this Nirvana state of how yourmeaning making and your money
making come together and have apretty unique perspective on it,
(01:06):
I think, to the way that societywants us to think, yeah,
Indra Klavins (01:11):
when we were when we were prepping for this call,
I shared a story that I'd heard,an anecdote that I'd heard
around there was a woman. Therewere two women getting together,
and one of the women had alittle girl who was making
bracelets. And the woman who wasnot the mother said, like, well,
you know, you can create an Etsyshop off of this. And the mother
was like, no, she needs hobbies.She does not need to commoditize
(01:34):
everything in her life, becausewe are so deep in hustle
culture. And how am I going tomake money off of this? Or maybe
I'm the next startup, or maybeI'm the next, you know, Brene
Brown, whatever you're trying todo, which is just, it can be, it
can it can take away the joy andthe thing that nourishes you
from those things. Like, some ofyou like, Oh, I'm great at
(01:54):
photography, you know, do whatyou love. Or there's like, we
can even go into the MalcolmGladwell 1000 hours kind of
thing too. But, yeah, it's justpretty remarkable. So let's
start talking about how youstart StoryTell.
Rachel Saslaw (02:07):
Sure. So StoryTell, like many
entrepreneurial ventures, camefrom a personal need. Yeah, I
grew up in New Jersey. I had astint in Chicago, and when I
moved back to New York City, Irekindled a lot of friendships
with people from high school andcollege and camp, kind of people
from my past life. And I foundthat we would go out to dinner
(02:31):
and have these like exchangingtransactional conversations,
how's dating, how's work, how'syour parents. And it would feel
so depleting and so draining.And as a self proclaimed
extrovert, I oftentimes askedmyself why I was feeling that
way, and I found that a lot ofmy friendships from my childhood
(02:53):
no longer carried the samevalues that I did, which was
values of curiosity, of growingtogether, and I wanted to be
around like minded, open mindedpeople that wanted to share, to
use vulnerability as a catalystfor connection, and I just
believed that there was a betterway. And so I started this in a
(03:14):
living room with eight friends,and it went from a personal need
to kind of like a societal andsystemic need, and now kind of
feels like my politics in a way.Oh, tell me more about that. I
think that the media bifurcatesus. They tell us to pick a side.
They make us pick a lane. Areyou on this side or this side?
(03:37):
There's very little nuance.There's very little gray in the
rhetoric of our media. And whatI think is so beautiful about
personal story is that it cannotbe contested. It cannot be
challenged. Your livedexperience is 100% yours, and
you're sitting in a room, kindof campfire style, storytelling
(03:58):
vibes, no stage, no microphone,no judges, just from the heart
storytelling, and you have theundivided attention of like 30
to 50 absolute strangers. Andthe beauty of holding space for
someone's story and notquestioning it. We don't do a Q
and A after, we just let thestory be what it is. And I think
(04:20):
that that in itself ispolitical. It is creating a
space for nuance, a space for usto be uncomfortable in the
witnessing of others stories,regardless of how we might feel
about it.
Indra Klavins (04:33):
Okay, a little sidetracked, but like, how does,
how do the people in the roomreact to not being allowed to
ask questions, interject all ofthat, or do people self select
into this environment wherethey're ready for that kind of
really respective activelistening, of like, what are
they saying? Let me understandit from their perspective. My
(04:54):
perspective comes later if Iwant to. Right? Yes.
Rachel Saslaw (04:57):
So just to. Clear the air, like we don't have a
formal Q, A, but after thegathering, to someone and say,
Oh, that resonated with me. Ortell me more, totally different.
Someone just shared how to lastlast StoryTell about how they
bought a train car. Oh, and Iwas like, I have so many
(05:18):
questions about this, but thatis at the storyteller's
discretion to share. And I dothink that one of the core
components of being a greatcommunity builder is setting the
table, setting expectation. Anda lot of people like you
mentioned earlier are likeopting in. They're self
(05:38):
selecting into this sort ofexperience where the listeners
and the space holders are justas important as the
storytellers, and it's kind oflike a simplistic but newer way
of storytelling exchange thatmight not be so common.
Indra Klavins (05:55):
Yeah, no. And the reason I'm thinking about it is
that, you know, we have this alot of the people listen to look
listen to look listen to thepodcast from really a work
perspective. And I'm justsitting here thinking of how
many times somebody ispresenting slides, which is its
own version of telling a story.It's telling a business story.
And there are the people who areso compelled to like me, me, me,
(06:16):
like I have like they're showingoff. Or there's some show like
talking to someone about itafterwards is a very different
energy than talking asking thequestion in front of the entire
room, totally and so I myinvitation everyone was
listening is feel free to setthat stage for your meeting, for
your talk, for your everythingbeing like, hey, no questions.
I'm owning the room. I'm owningthe space. I'm telling this
(06:39):
story. May not use thatlanguage, but I love that. I
love
Rachel Saslaw (06:44):
there's such a pull from a professional lens to
have a presentation feelcollaborative, and I do
subscribe to that. But like, forsomeone who's done the back
work, to bring a point of viewto a room, like let them have
the floor, oftentimes, when Ihave a question on a
presentation, 90% of the timethey they get to it three slides
(07:07):
at some point, yeah, it's justnot the way I would have shared
that story. Yeah. Like weproject our own beliefs and our
own ways of how a story shouldbe shared, or how it should
unfold, or how the presentationshould, yeah, kind of like take
take part. And I think thatgiving an individual that
(07:28):
creative liberty to let thestory be theirs is a beautiful
thing.
Indra Klavins (07:34):
Yeah, and just for just comparison, I'm
completely curious. I have notyet had a chance to go to one of
your events. It's never alignedon my schedule, but I look
forward to it. Are people usingnotes? Are they talking off the
cuff? Is it like moth like? Isit like, you know, people
Rachel Saslaw (07:48):
are speaking straight from the heart. It is
it is so beautiful, because somepeople have likened it to, oh,
I'm just listening to a podcast,or I'm having to chat with a
friend. Sure, that's what itfeels like to them. We have at
the beginning of the event,small group breakouts where we
explore the philosophical andthe intellectual side of the
(08:10):
theme of the month. Okay? Andthe reason we do that is because
to operate at like, anintellectual level requires a
lot less vulnerability, but itstill primes you on like, what
are my beliefs on this theme,and how do I feel about this and
kind of mirroring and reflectinghow others are also metabolizing
that theme, and from that, a lotof personal stories emerge. I
(08:32):
have actually been involved in alot of like salon style
philosophical groups, and I findthat a lot of people try to
anchor into the intellectual butyou always find that the
personal anecdotes like seep inof, you know, a moment where I,
in an uncontested way, felt andexperienced this one thing, and
(08:55):
this is my truth. Yeah, and youknow, sometimes people will lean
on notes or bullet points thatthey've written down. You can do
whatever you want, but most ofthe time it's just from the
heart.
Indra Klavins (09:06):
Yeah, it's funny. I was at a salon yesterday. The
topic was healthcare, and I willsay the people who are the most
compelling speakers, not justfor me, but you could hear it
from the reaction after theyfinished their seven minute
talk, was the people who weresuper personal, or were talking
from them, or were sharing alived experience that was just
so deeply relatable. So you'recreating an amazing space. Thank
(09:29):
you. And I can see why people,not just the American like, go,
go, go, culture, is the peoplewho have that mindset are like,
asking you, like, why don't you,why don't you just turn this
into your business. But like, Iimagine that some people are
saying they just they want moreof this, because I think we're
craving the thing that you'reputting out into the world, like
as humans, yeah, whether it'sauthenticity, whether it's the
(09:51):
storytelling, whether it'scommunity, like, there's so many
elements that you're talkingabout, let's talk a little bit
about like, the people pushing,pulling you. So encouraging you
to go into the commoditizationand why you've intentionally
said, you know, like you gavethat thing the highest, but
you're like, No, not for me,
Rachel Saslaw (10:09):
yeah, and I'll caveat, it's a not for me right
now. I give myself the utmostradical permission to change my
mind at any moment. Snatch forthat snatch, for that I haven't
yet. Yeah, it's been threeyears, and I'm still headstrong
on this being a passion project.Yeah, I'm a runner up for a or
(10:32):
I'm in the running for a grantright now, which could, you
know, radically change so whoknows, but I have found that
when I start to businessify apassion, it drains the life out
of it, and not only do I feelless motivated by it, but now I
am having to make sacrifices andcompromises between what's best
(10:55):
for me and My community, yeah,which is already two separate
things, like what's best for meand what's best for my community
are sometimes really different,yeah, and we can chat about
that, like the the role of beinga community builder, and how to
nourish yourself so that youhave this sustained momentum and
(11:19):
energy to put into thecommunity, but then when you add
this whole other layer of profiton top of it, you're having to
make radical decisions thatmight be at odds with the core
values of your community. A verylogical one is increasing prices
having more people in a roomthan feels cozy just to make
(11:43):
ends meet or make markets or hitour numbers. And I actually was
at a live podcast recording withSeth Godin, who is a marketer
that I so admire, and he had a Qand A at the end of this session
all around like, meaning makingand money making. And I raised
my hand, and I was like, why arewe so focused on taking our
(12:07):
hobbies and, like, turning theminto our jobs? And he gave me
some like, brutal feedback thatwas along the lines of, you
should not be wasting your timein your career doing something
that you kind of half ass like,whereas, you know, like, if you
can get to the point thisNirvana, point of your meaning
(12:31):
making and your money makingoverlapping, that's what we
should be striving for. And Ifeel like I've been sold that
dream, yeah, for my whole adultcareer, yeah, and I've been
seeking it and seeking it, andI've been in enough roles, and
I'm like, This feels tolerable.This feels good. This feels like
(12:54):
it's fueling a life outside ofwork that I really love. Yeah,
and letting work be work, andletting passion be passion. And
so from someone who is someone Iadmire so much, and to get that
feedback from him and to say II'm not selling my soul at work,
but I am not chasing a careerthat is so purpose driven the
(13:19):
way that I think many people do,and I'm open to changing my
mind. I'm open to a world inwhich that looks different. But
right now for me, my work is thefinancial catalyst for me to
live an abundant life outside ofwork, and I'm so actively
protecting StoryTell, yeah,because I want to protect my
(13:42):
community. I want to protectmyself, and I haven't yet found
a model that I feel excitedabout going all in on
financially, my life is quiteexpensive. You know, I live in
New York City. I like to eatout, I like to travel. I think I
acknowledge that there's alittle bit of fear in my
(14:04):
approach, but I also feel likemajority of it is coming from an
intrinsic knowing and a sense ofself that, like I want to
preserve the the efficacy that Iwant to preserve the meaning And
the container of StoryTell aswhat it is. Without competing
with capitalistic
Indra Klavins (14:24):
tendencies, you're, you're tapping into
something that's just so darnimportant. Like, we've got,
again, the models that we have.Like, I'm stuck on this phrase,
the hustle culture. It's andthis, like, do what you love,
and all these different, youknow, things that happen, that
have been said in the zeitgeistcenter, that are out there, but
like, there are not enoughpeople talking about what you're
(14:46):
talking about, which is truly,as much as I'm going to cringe
as I'm saying, It's true worklife balance, right? It's, How
do I use my day job? It's not,it's not, you know, I I'm
working for the weekend. That'snot what you're talking about.
You're. Amazing. It's theengine. Your work is the engine,
and it's not emotionallyexhausting. You have the right
boundaries in place that allowyou to use that engine to
(15:08):
provide the sustenance, in thiscase, in large part, money and
stability and a lot of otherthings to fuel the thing that is
the addition to your life.You've got multiple facets of
your life for this moment, atthis time, until you're ready to
set up an LLC and deal with allthe accounting and all the other
craziness that comes with thatright, which may or may not ever
happen, and you're creating theinvitation to change your mind.
Rachel Saslaw (15:31):
So yeah, it's it is very counter culture to
accept. It almost feels like I'mlike, throwing in the towel on a
life where my passion and mycapital are intertwined, yeah,
and I feel like, especiallybeing a millennial, we are often
(15:54):
kind of sold this dream thatit's possible, and I think it is
possible, But for those who it'snot possible for right now, I
can't live a life where I'mstriving and I'm tinkering with
my career to the point ofexhaustion. I've had so many
jobs in my life, and they fuelstrategy for me, they fuel a bit
(16:20):
of creativity, like you said,security and safety, yeah,
financial stability. And that'sthe role that I'm letting work
play in my life right now. And Isometimes feel a little
embarrassed to say that, becausethere's this striving culture,
this there must be more culture,yeah, that millennials subscribe
(16:41):
to, and I feel like the more I'mstriving, the less I'm being
present and in the moment withmy current life that's in front
of me. Yeah, I'm not sitting onmy hands like not putting myself
out there and open to dreamscoming through my passion and
(17:02):
and that like it's both anopenness and us and a security
and a presence. And I feel likebalancing the two is something
that I've spent a lot of timereally grappling with and trying
to accept. There's two wordsthat are
Indra Klavins (17:19):
bubbling in my brain as you're talking. One is
intentionality, like you are sointentional with where you're
investing your energy andattention and being deliberate
around that. And I think thatthat's what not enough of us do,
because, I mean, I'm ageneration older than you, and
we were told like the goal wasto get a job is going to last
(17:42):
you for your entire life.Actually, my generation was told
not to count on that anymore.You know, boomers were told
that's their job, like workuntil I can get that pension. My
generation was like, we'll seewhat you get, right? And then,
and it's changed. And then youlook at Gen Z, they're in a
completely different category.They they're, they're, they're,
like, multi hyphenates bynecessity, which is really
(18:03):
interesting. And it's, it's aninteresting shift. And I'm, I
admire you. I admire you for theway that you're doing this and
the way that you're navigatingit. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, it's
hard. It's not easy, no, becauseit's also, it's so hard going
counter to the counter to thenorm, right? That takes its own
act of bravery to do that. Ittakes its own act of bravery.
(18:26):
And it said, like, I reject youradvice, not for me, good for
someone else, but not for me.That's not working for me in my
lived experience. And I thinkthat so much of the advice that
we live by comes from cis men,cis white men specifically, and
so like, and it's not that it'snot well intentioned. He
(18:47):
probably he said that with themost generosity from seeing him
answer questions in otherforums. For people like, he is a
very generous person with hisknowledge and his attention. But
it doesn't work for everyone. Itdoesn't work for everyone, and
you're finding something
Rachel Saslaw (19:03):
that works for you, the external advice that we
get is always through the lensof someone's lived experience,
yeah. And so when I was let gofrom a past job, all of my
friends were like, You need togo to Australia, and you need to
go on a crazy trip. And I waslike, you know, that sounds
great and all, but like, I'm notin that life stage right now.
(19:26):
I'm like, not in that mindset.I'm really in like, a rooting,
grounding mindset right now, andI'm realizing that, like, all
those opinions that I weregetting was from people who
wished that they could do that,or like it, came from their own
personal life and where theyfelt scarcity and to almost
quite literally, like reject sexadvice, someone who I admire so
(19:49):
much felt so scary. Yeah, andthis is not me saying that you
should throw caution to thewhite. And and just right in at
your job. I think your jobshould play some sort of role in
your life, but allowing yourselfto be like, proud and content
(20:10):
with the role that work isplaying in your life, even if it
is not your like, life'scalling, yeah, I I just feel
like it's a it's a dream thatwe're being sold, that I'm open
to achieving, and also presentand accepting of a world where
my work is fueling a life that Ilove.
Indra Klavins (20:32):
Yeah, I think there's three, if there's three,
if I think about work, andideally, there's three
categories that work can playfor you. One is, it is like
you're a so and flow. It'shelping you live out your life's
mission. And it's great. Whetheryou're working for someone else,
you're the entrepreneur whostarted something, and whatever
there is the it's sucking thelife out of me. And how do I
even drag myself into workscenario, right? That's a very
(20:56):
different thing. Then, then yourcup is empty by the time that
you get home, right? Yes, whatyou're talking about is that
middle ground, which isperfectly fine. I would venture
to say that an awful lot ofhumans on Earth that's perfectly
fine. I go to work. I do goodwork. I'm proud of the thing I
do. I make fair pay. I comehome, I live the rest of my life
(21:17):
and and it's not, it's notreasonable for all of us to be
living our dreams in these crazyways. So many of us are in that
middle portion, which is adifferent version of that messy
middle. We are the doers, butbeing
Rachel Saslaw (21:33):
content with your work is enough. Is a neutrality?
Yes, yes. It's not like adetractor. Yes, it's a
neutrality, yes, that's a
Indra Klavins (21:41):
great way to say it. If work is neutral in your
life, why? Why would you changeit until there's something that
compels you to feel otherwise?Yeah, there's always
Rachel Saslaw (21:48):
this like nagging voice of like, what could be
more? How more could work playinto my my passions and my
dreams? And sometimes it's worthlistening to and sometimes,
like, you can realize that youcan get a lot of your passion
and fulfillment and interestingto what you were just saying. Of
like, living your dream, like,maybe this is my dream, you
(22:11):
know, like maybe the choicesthat I'm making. Yeah, something
else that came to mind for mewas like, anytime that you are
making a career shift, you needto be ready to make sacrifices.
And I went through kind of likethe Rolodex of everything that
my work is is giving me rightnow, and not one of them was
(22:35):
what I was willing to let go of.I'm not ready to make a
sacrifice yet. And I think thatthat's an interesting framework
to think about, like, what areyou willing to give up to maybe
pursue something that is alittle bit more passion
oriented? For me, I'm notwilling to accept less capital
right now, given my lifestyle, Ihave a lot of flexibility, and
(22:57):
I'm not really willing to givethat up. I'm trying to date and
I don't really want to date mymy entrepreneurial venture,
which I feel like a lot ofpeople say, when you become an
entrepreneur, you date yourwork. Yeah, not really
interested in that either. Andso I'm like, what's got to give
Rach? And I am not ready ordesiring to give up a lot of my
(23:20):
life right now, and thereforethat's a great indicator that
I'm in the right place.
Indra Klavins (23:24):
Yeah, Mickey and I, she joined me for an episode,
and we were talking about justthe identity shifts when you're
changing roles, the identityshifts that happen around time,
and the mourning that happensfor your former self where you
were talking about, and it's noteven when the opportunity is
good or might be good. You haveto let go of who you were in
(23:46):
that previous and whether it's apromotion or whatever it might
be, changing companies pursuinga dream. And I love the fact
that you you're talking aboutinviting like imagining the
process. Am I willing to let gocomfort, safety, familiarity,
the friends that I have, therole that I have, the identity
that I have, it all shifts. Itall shifts and changes.
Rachel Saslaw (24:07):
It is interesting hearing you talk about identity,
because when people ask me, whatdo you do, I deflect hard, and I
say for work or for fun. BecauseI try to give people the option
to like, not hone in on work.And I tell people that work is
the least interesting thingabout me, but if you want to
talk about work, we can talkabout work. And I give people
(24:29):
the out to talk about thingsthat are more passion and
Passion Driven for us, that arenot necessarily attributed to
our full time work, and this,this concept of identity and how
it weaves into your work, like,I don't lead by saying I'm a
(24:50):
product marketer. I have amstill kind of trying to figure
out what my like elevator pitchis, and I think that a lot of
multi hyphenates grapple withthis. Friction of like, what do
I lead with? What do I callmyself like? I do so many
things. Yeah, you know. What doI stand for? I think you know by
(25:12):
by being able to own yourmultitudes and let others into
that world. You know by saying Iwhat I love to do, or what I
stand for, or what I'mpassionate about, is something
that makes up more of myidentity, rather than the role
that I have. And if you reallylook at it like product
(25:34):
marketing and running thiscommunity, the storytelling
community, has a through line ofstorytelling, sure, so there are
through lines there, but Ireally try not to lean on my
role or my title as a means formy identity, because I really
don't feel like it captures it.I don't
Indra Klavins (25:50):
think that's a deflection. I think it's an
invitation. Yeah, it'sbeautiful. So okay, so I'll ask
you, because you might havesomething useful, because I
think that that's gonna be suchmoney for so many people who
struggle with that question.Like, so, so what do you do for
work? Yeah, like, but myquestion, the way that I learned
this years ago, was, how do youspend the days of your week? And
then people just sit there andthey're like, What do you mean
(26:10):
by that? I'm like, your choice,your choice, however you want to
answer it. And like, in thiseconomy, people often, more
often than it ever in the past.Like, oh, thank you for saying
it that way. Because, like,people even ask me what I do for
work. Yeah, I'm right now tryingto find something, right, you
know? I'm like, Okay, I'm gladit was useful. Do you have an
opening line when you're the oneasking you about somebody else?
Rachel Saslaw (26:31):
I like to ask, like, what's bringing you joy
lately? What are you passionateabout lately? What have you been
thinking about lately? And thatcan really lead to very abstract
places I think. Like, have youspend your your week is
interesting? But also, like, Idon't know, it's pretty broad,
yeah, be kind of boring. Like,yeah, I go to the gym, I go to
work, like, whatever. Versuslike, what a what's bringing me
(26:54):
joy, or what am I passionateabout? Allows me to kind of dig
into the crevices of my lifethat I'm actually excited about
talking about and I feel likesome people are taken aback and
surprised by that question, butmost people are, like, really
excited for that invitation.
Indra Klavins (27:09):
That's so nice, that is so nice and so generous.
Wow, we've covered so muchground. I want to be mindful of
time any other things that youwant to touch on or tell people
about or thoughts that you wantto share with everyone?
Rachel Saslaw (27:25):
Hmm, I guess that like if I were to give any
advice, and we've talked a lotabout how external advice can be
digested in at your discretion,yeah, but I think listening to
(27:45):
your inner voice and choosing alife that feels good for you,
that radically feels good foryou, even just in the moment,
treating this moment in time asan experiment, and giving
yourself the radical permissionto change your mind, I think
will alleviate and bring a lotof freedom to this question of
(28:07):
like, what am I doing? What doesmy career look like? How do I
identify myself?
Indra Klavins (28:15):
And so that's been a really helpful and
fruitful refrain for me, andhope it might be for you. I
think it will be. It's been forme. I'll speak for the audience
of one. It's been for me. I amso grateful to you for taking
the time to chat with me. I amso grateful for showing people
how you walk in this world. It'sso different than how so many
(28:35):
other people do. So thank youfor that. Thank you. I've
learned something today. I knoweveryone who's listening has
definitely learned somethingtoday. And I hope you all join
us next time. For another topic,for the mess of male matters,
oh, important links to all yourstuff are going to be in the
show notes. We're gonna makesure that that's all there and
(28:57):
all the housekeeping, so you canfind her and follow her and
maybe join one of one of theStoryTells. So thank you. Yeah,
thank you. I really, reallyappreciate it. Okay. Bye,
everyone. Bye.
(29:17):
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle. Word of
Mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
(29:39):
at the messy middle matters.comor in the show notes, thank you
for joining us on this journey.This work is better when we do
it together, until next timeyou.
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work.
So welcome. Thank you forjoining me. So happy to be here,
and why don't you tell everybodya little bit about yourself
before we dig in.
Rachel Saslaw (00:24):
Amazing. So I'm Rachel saslow. I am a product
marketing director at a techcompany, and I'm also a
community founder. I foundedStoryTell, which is a New York
City based community thatenables empathy, belonging and
connection among New Yorkersthrough personal storytelling.
(00:44):
And I have been navigating themessy middle of having a
corporate life and having apassion that people often ask,
why not turn that into abusiness? And I grapple with
this Nirvana state of how yourmeaning making and your money
making come together and have apretty unique perspective on it,
(01:06):
I think, to the way that societywants us to think, yeah,
Indra Klavins (01:11):
when we were when we were prepping for this call,
I shared a story that I'd heard,an anecdote that I'd heard
around there was a woman. Therewere two women getting together,
and one of the women had alittle girl who was making
bracelets. And the woman who wasnot the mother said, like, well,
you know, you can create an Etsyshop off of this. And the mother
was like, no, she needs hobbies.She does not need to commoditize
(01:34):
everything in her life, becausewe are so deep in hustle
culture. And how am I going tomake money off of this? Or maybe
I'm the next startup, or maybeI'm the next, you know, Brene
Brown, whatever you're trying todo, which is just, it can be, it
can it can take away the joy andthe thing that nourishes you
from those things. Like, some ofyou like, Oh, I'm great at
(01:54):
photography, you know, do whatyou love. Or there's like, we
can even go into the MalcolmGladwell 1000 hours kind of
thing too. But, yeah, it's justpretty remarkable. So let's
start talking about how youstart StoryTell.
Rachel Saslaw (02:07):
Sure. So StoryTell, like many
entrepreneurial ventures, camefrom a personal need. Yeah, I
grew up in New Jersey. I had astint in Chicago, and when I
moved back to New York City, Irekindled a lot of friendships
with people from high school andcollege and camp, kind of people
from my past life. And I foundthat we would go out to dinner
(02:31):
and have these like exchangingtransactional conversations,
how's dating, how's work, how'syour parents. And it would feel
so depleting and so draining.And as a self proclaimed
extrovert, I oftentimes askedmyself why I was feeling that
way, and I found that a lot ofmy friendships from my childhood
(02:53):
no longer carried the samevalues that I did, which was
values of curiosity, of growingtogether, and I wanted to be
around like minded, open mindedpeople that wanted to share, to
use vulnerability as a catalystfor connection, and I just
believed that there was a betterway. And so I started this in a
(03:14):
living room with eight friends,and it went from a personal need
to kind of like a societal andsystemic need, and now kind of
feels like my politics in a way.Oh, tell me more about that. I
think that the media bifurcatesus. They tell us to pick a side.
They make us pick a lane. Areyou on this side or this side?
(03:37):
There's very little nuance.There's very little gray in the
rhetoric of our media. And whatI think is so beautiful about
personal story is that it cannotbe contested. It cannot be
challenged. Your livedexperience is 100% yours, and
you're sitting in a room, kindof campfire style, storytelling
(03:58):
vibes, no stage, no microphone,no judges, just from the heart
storytelling, and you have theundivided attention of like 30
to 50 absolute strangers. Andthe beauty of holding space for
someone's story and notquestioning it. We don't do a Q
and A after, we just let thestory be what it is. And I think
(04:20):
that that in itself ispolitical. It is creating a
space for nuance, a space for usto be uncomfortable in the
witnessing of others stories,regardless of how we might feel
about it.
Indra Klavins (04:33):
Okay, a little sidetracked, but like, how does,
how do the people in the roomreact to not being allowed to
ask questions, interject all ofthat, or do people self select
into this environment wherethey're ready for that kind of
really respective activelistening, of like, what are
they saying? Let me understandit from their perspective. My
(04:54):
perspective comes later if Iwant to. Right? Yes.
Rachel Saslaw (04:57):
So just to. Clear the air, like we don't have a
formal Q, A, but after thegathering, to someone and say,
Oh, that resonated with me. Ortell me more, totally different.
Someone just shared how to lastlast StoryTell about how they
bought a train car. Oh, and Iwas like, I have so many
(05:18):
questions about this, but thatis at the storyteller's
discretion to share. And I dothink that one of the core
components of being a greatcommunity builder is setting the
table, setting expectation. Anda lot of people like you
mentioned earlier are likeopting in. They're self
(05:38):
selecting into this sort ofexperience where the listeners
and the space holders are justas important as the
storytellers, and it's kind oflike a simplistic but newer way
of storytelling exchange thatmight not be so common.
Indra Klavins (05:55):
Yeah, no. And the reason I'm thinking about it is
that, you know, we have this alot of the people listen to look
listen to look listen to thepodcast from really a work
perspective. And I'm justsitting here thinking of how
many times somebody ispresenting slides, which is its
own version of telling a story.It's telling a business story.
And there are the people who areso compelled to like me, me, me,
(06:16):
like I have like they're showingoff. Or there's some show like
talking to someone about itafterwards is a very different
energy than talking asking thequestion in front of the entire
room, totally and so I myinvitation everyone was
listening is feel free to setthat stage for your meeting, for
your talk, for your everythingbeing like, hey, no questions.
I'm owning the room. I'm owningthe space. I'm telling this
(06:39):
story. May not use thatlanguage, but I love that. I
love
Rachel Saslaw (06:44):
there's such a pull from a professional lens to
have a presentation feelcollaborative, and I do
subscribe to that. But like, forsomeone who's done the back
work, to bring a point of viewto a room, like let them have
the floor, oftentimes, when Ihave a question on a
presentation, 90% of the timethey they get to it three slides
(07:07):
at some point, yeah, it's justnot the way I would have shared
that story. Yeah. Like weproject our own beliefs and our
own ways of how a story shouldbe shared, or how it should
unfold, or how the presentationshould, yeah, kind of like take
take part. And I think thatgiving an individual that
(07:28):
creative liberty to let thestory be theirs is a beautiful
thing.
Indra Klavins (07:34):
Yeah, and just for just comparison, I'm
completely curious. I have notyet had a chance to go to one of
your events. It's never alignedon my schedule, but I look
forward to it. Are people usingnotes? Are they talking off the
cuff? Is it like moth like? Isit like, you know, people
Rachel Saslaw (07:48):
are speaking straight from the heart. It is
it is so beautiful, because somepeople have likened it to, oh,
I'm just listening to a podcast,or I'm having to chat with a
friend. Sure, that's what itfeels like to them. We have at
the beginning of the event,small group breakouts where we
explore the philosophical andthe intellectual side of the
(08:10):
theme of the month. Okay? Andthe reason we do that is because
to operate at like, anintellectual level requires a
lot less vulnerability, but itstill primes you on like, what
are my beliefs on this theme,and how do I feel about this and
kind of mirroring and reflectinghow others are also metabolizing
that theme, and from that, a lotof personal stories emerge. I
(08:32):
have actually been involved in alot of like salon style
philosophical groups, and I findthat a lot of people try to
anchor into the intellectual butyou always find that the
personal anecdotes like seep inof, you know, a moment where I,
in an uncontested way, felt andexperienced this one thing, and
(08:55):
this is my truth. Yeah, and youknow, sometimes people will lean
on notes or bullet points thatthey've written down. You can do
whatever you want, but most ofthe time it's just from the
heart.
Indra Klavins (09:06):
Yeah, it's funny. I was at a salon yesterday. The
topic was healthcare, and I willsay the people who are the most
compelling speakers, not justfor me, but you could hear it
from the reaction after theyfinished their seven minute
talk, was the people who weresuper personal, or were talking
from them, or were sharing alived experience that was just
so deeply relatable. So you'recreating an amazing space. Thank
(09:29):
you. And I can see why people,not just the American like, go,
go, go, culture, is the peoplewho have that mindset are like,
asking you, like, why don't you,why don't you just turn this
into your business. But like, Iimagine that some people are
saying they just they want moreof this, because I think we're
craving the thing that you'reputting out into the world, like
as humans, yeah, whether it'sauthenticity, whether it's the
(09:51):
storytelling, whether it'scommunity, like, there's so many
elements that you're talkingabout, let's talk a little bit
about like, the people pushing,pulling you. So encouraging you
to go into the commoditizationand why you've intentionally
said, you know, like you gavethat thing the highest, but
you're like, No, not for me,
Rachel Saslaw (10:09):
yeah, and I'll caveat, it's a not for me right
now. I give myself the utmostradical permission to change my
mind at any moment. Snatch forthat snatch, for that I haven't
yet. Yeah, it's been threeyears, and I'm still headstrong
on this being a passion project.Yeah, I'm a runner up for a or
(10:32):
I'm in the running for a grantright now, which could, you
know, radically change so whoknows, but I have found that
when I start to businessify apassion, it drains the life out
of it, and not only do I feelless motivated by it, but now I
am having to make sacrifices andcompromises between what's best
(10:55):
for me and My community, yeah,which is already two separate
things, like what's best for meand what's best for my community
are sometimes really different,yeah, and we can chat about
that, like the the role of beinga community builder, and how to
nourish yourself so that youhave this sustained momentum and
(11:19):
energy to put into thecommunity, but then when you add
this whole other layer of profiton top of it, you're having to
make radical decisions thatmight be at odds with the core
values of your community. A verylogical one is increasing prices
having more people in a roomthan feels cozy just to make
(11:43):
ends meet or make markets or hitour numbers. And I actually was
at a live podcast recording withSeth Godin, who is a marketer
that I so admire, and he had a Qand A at the end of this session
all around like, meaning makingand money making. And I raised
my hand, and I was like, why arewe so focused on taking our
(12:07):
hobbies and, like, turning theminto our jobs? And he gave me
some like, brutal feedback thatwas along the lines of, you
should not be wasting your timein your career doing something
that you kind of half ass like,whereas, you know, like, if you
can get to the point thisNirvana, point of your meaning
(12:31):
making and your money makingoverlapping, that's what we
should be striving for. And Ifeel like I've been sold that
dream, yeah, for my whole adultcareer, yeah, and I've been
seeking it and seeking it, andI've been in enough roles, and
I'm like, This feels tolerable.This feels good. This feels like
(12:54):
it's fueling a life outside ofwork that I really love. Yeah,
and letting work be work, andletting passion be passion. And
so from someone who is someone Iadmire so much, and to get that
feedback from him and to say II'm not selling my soul at work,
but I am not chasing a careerthat is so purpose driven the
(13:19):
way that I think many people do,and I'm open to changing my
mind. I'm open to a world inwhich that looks different. But
right now for me, my work is thefinancial catalyst for me to
live an abundant life outside ofwork, and I'm so actively
protecting StoryTell, yeah,because I want to protect my
(13:42):
community. I want to protectmyself, and I haven't yet found
a model that I feel excitedabout going all in on
financially, my life is quiteexpensive. You know, I live in
New York City. I like to eatout, I like to travel. I think I
acknowledge that there's alittle bit of fear in my
(14:04):
approach, but I also feel likemajority of it is coming from an
intrinsic knowing and a sense ofself that, like I want to
preserve the the efficacy that Iwant to preserve the meaning And
the container of StoryTell aswhat it is. Without competing
with capitalistic
Indra Klavins (14:24):
tendencies, you're, you're tapping into
something that's just so darnimportant. Like, we've got,
again, the models that we have.Like, I'm stuck on this phrase,
the hustle culture. It's andthis, like, do what you love,
and all these different, youknow, things that happen, that
have been said in the zeitgeistcenter, that are out there, but
like, there are not enoughpeople talking about what you're
(14:46):
talking about, which is truly,as much as I'm going to cringe
as I'm saying, It's true worklife balance, right? It's, How
do I use my day job? It's not,it's not, you know, I I'm
working for the weekend. That'snot what you're talking about.
You're. Amazing. It's theengine. Your work is the engine,
and it's not emotionallyexhausting. You have the right
boundaries in place that allowyou to use that engine to
(15:08):
provide the sustenance, in thiscase, in large part, money and
stability and a lot of otherthings to fuel the thing that is
the addition to your life.You've got multiple facets of
your life for this moment, atthis time, until you're ready to
set up an LLC and deal with allthe accounting and all the other
craziness that comes with thatright, which may or may not ever
happen, and you're creating theinvitation to change your mind.
Rachel Saslaw (15:31):
So yeah, it's it is very counter culture to
accept. It almost feels like I'mlike, throwing in the towel on a
life where my passion and mycapital are intertwined, yeah,
and I feel like, especiallybeing a millennial, we are often
(15:54):
kind of sold this dream thatit's possible, and I think it is
possible, But for those who it'snot possible for right now, I
can't live a life where I'mstriving and I'm tinkering with
my career to the point ofexhaustion. I've had so many
jobs in my life, and they fuelstrategy for me, they fuel a bit
(16:20):
of creativity, like you said,security and safety, yeah,
financial stability. And that'sthe role that I'm letting work
play in my life right now. And Isometimes feel a little
embarrassed to say that, becausethere's this striving culture,
this there must be more culture,yeah, that millennials subscribe
(16:41):
to, and I feel like the more I'mstriving, the less I'm being
present and in the moment withmy current life that's in front
of me. Yeah, I'm not sitting onmy hands like not putting myself
out there and open to dreamscoming through my passion and
(17:02):
and that like it's both anopenness and us and a security
and a presence. And I feel likebalancing the two is something
that I've spent a lot of timereally grappling with and trying
to accept. There's two wordsthat are
Indra Klavins (17:19):
bubbling in my brain as you're talking. One is
intentionality, like you are sointentional with where you're
investing your energy andattention and being deliberate
around that. And I think thatthat's what not enough of us do,
because, I mean, I'm ageneration older than you, and
we were told like the goal wasto get a job is going to last
(17:42):
you for your entire life.Actually, my generation was told
not to count on that anymore.You know, boomers were told
that's their job, like workuntil I can get that pension. My
generation was like, we'll seewhat you get, right? And then,
and it's changed. And then youlook at Gen Z, they're in a
completely different category.They they're, they're, they're,
like, multi hyphenates bynecessity, which is really
(18:03):
interesting. And it's, it's aninteresting shift. And I'm, I
admire you. I admire you for theway that you're doing this and
the way that you're navigatingit. Thank you. Yeah, yeah, it's
hard. It's not easy, no, becauseit's also, it's so hard going
counter to the counter to thenorm, right? That takes its own
act of bravery to do that. Ittakes its own act of bravery.
(18:26):
And it said, like, I reject youradvice, not for me, good for
someone else, but not for me.That's not working for me in my
lived experience. And I thinkthat so much of the advice that
we live by comes from cis men,cis white men specifically, and
so like, and it's not that it'snot well intentioned. He
(18:47):
probably he said that with themost generosity from seeing him
answer questions in otherforums. For people like, he is a
very generous person with hisknowledge and his attention. But
it doesn't work for everyone. Itdoesn't work for everyone, and
you're finding something
Rachel Saslaw (19:03):
that works for you, the external advice that we
get is always through the lensof someone's lived experience,
yeah. And so when I was let gofrom a past job, all of my
friends were like, You need togo to Australia, and you need to
go on a crazy trip. And I waslike, you know, that sounds
great and all, but like, I'm notin that life stage right now.
(19:26):
I'm like, not in that mindset.I'm really in like, a rooting,
grounding mindset right now, andI'm realizing that, like, all
those opinions that I weregetting was from people who
wished that they could do that,or like it, came from their own
personal life and where theyfelt scarcity and to almost
quite literally, like reject sexadvice, someone who I admire so
(19:49):
much felt so scary. Yeah, andthis is not me saying that you
should throw caution to thewhite. And and just right in at
your job. I think your jobshould play some sort of role in
your life, but allowing yourselfto be like, proud and content
(20:10):
with the role that work isplaying in your life, even if it
is not your like, life'scalling, yeah, I I just feel
like it's a it's a dream thatwe're being sold, that I'm open
to achieving, and also presentand accepting of a world where
my work is fueling a life that Ilove.
Indra Klavins (20:32):
Yeah, I think there's three, if there's three,
if I think about work, andideally, there's three
categories that work can playfor you. One is, it is like
you're a so and flow. It'shelping you live out your life's
mission. And it's great. Whetheryou're working for someone else,
you're the entrepreneur whostarted something, and whatever
there is the it's sucking thelife out of me. And how do I
even drag myself into workscenario, right? That's a very
(20:56):
different thing. Then, then yourcup is empty by the time that
you get home, right? Yes, whatyou're talking about is that
middle ground, which isperfectly fine. I would venture
to say that an awful lot ofhumans on Earth that's perfectly
fine. I go to work. I do goodwork. I'm proud of the thing I
do. I make fair pay. I comehome, I live the rest of my life
(21:17):
and and it's not, it's notreasonable for all of us to be
living our dreams in these crazyways. So many of us are in that
middle portion, which is adifferent version of that messy
middle. We are the doers, butbeing
Rachel Saslaw (21:33):
content with your work is enough. Is a neutrality?
Yes, yes. It's not like adetractor. Yes, it's a
neutrality, yes, that's a
Indra Klavins (21:41):
great way to say it. If work is neutral in your
life, why? Why would you changeit until there's something that
compels you to feel otherwise?Yeah, there's always
Rachel Saslaw (21:48):
this like nagging voice of like, what could be
more? How more could work playinto my my passions and my
dreams? And sometimes it's worthlistening to and sometimes,
like, you can realize that youcan get a lot of your passion
and fulfillment and interestingto what you were just saying. Of
like, living your dream, like,maybe this is my dream, you
(22:11):
know, like maybe the choicesthat I'm making. Yeah, something
else that came to mind for mewas like, anytime that you are
making a career shift, you needto be ready to make sacrifices.
And I went through kind of likethe Rolodex of everything that
my work is is giving me rightnow, and not one of them was
(22:35):
what I was willing to let go of.I'm not ready to make a
sacrifice yet. And I think thatthat's an interesting framework
to think about, like, what areyou willing to give up to maybe
pursue something that is alittle bit more passion
oriented? For me, I'm notwilling to accept less capital
right now, given my lifestyle, Ihave a lot of flexibility, and
(22:57):
I'm not really willing to givethat up. I'm trying to date and
I don't really want to date mymy entrepreneurial venture,
which I feel like a lot ofpeople say, when you become an
entrepreneur, you date yourwork. Yeah, not really
interested in that either. Andso I'm like, what's got to give
Rach? And I am not ready ordesiring to give up a lot of my
(23:20):
life right now, and thereforethat's a great indicator that
I'm in the right place.
Indra Klavins (23:24):
Yeah, Mickey and I, she joined me for an episode,
and we were talking about justthe identity shifts when you're
changing roles, the identityshifts that happen around time,
and the mourning that happensfor your former self where you
were talking about, and it's noteven when the opportunity is
good or might be good. You haveto let go of who you were in
(23:46):
that previous and whether it's apromotion or whatever it might
be, changing companies pursuinga dream. And I love the fact
that you you're talking aboutinviting like imagining the
process. Am I willing to let gocomfort, safety, familiarity,
the friends that I have, therole that I have, the identity
that I have, it all shifts. Itall shifts and changes.
Rachel Saslaw (24:07):
It is interesting hearing you talk about identity,
because when people ask me, whatdo you do, I deflect hard, and I
say for work or for fun. BecauseI try to give people the option
to like, not hone in on work.And I tell people that work is
the least interesting thingabout me, but if you want to
talk about work, we can talkabout work. And I give people
(24:29):
the out to talk about thingsthat are more passion and
Passion Driven for us, that arenot necessarily attributed to
our full time work, and this,this concept of identity and how
it weaves into your work, like,I don't lead by saying I'm a
(24:50):
product marketer. I have amstill kind of trying to figure
out what my like elevator pitchis, and I think that a lot of
multi hyphenates grapple withthis. Friction of like, what do
I lead with? What do I callmyself like? I do so many
things. Yeah, you know. What doI stand for? I think you know by
(25:12):
by being able to own yourmultitudes and let others into
that world. You know by saying Iwhat I love to do, or what I
stand for, or what I'mpassionate about, is something
that makes up more of myidentity, rather than the role
that I have. And if you reallylook at it like product
(25:34):
marketing and running thiscommunity, the storytelling
community, has a through line ofstorytelling, sure, so there are
through lines there, but Ireally try not to lean on my
role or my title as a means formy identity, because I really
don't feel like it captures it.I don't
Indra Klavins (25:50):
think that's a deflection. I think it's an
invitation. Yeah, it'sbeautiful. So okay, so I'll ask
you, because you might havesomething useful, because I
think that that's gonna be suchmoney for so many people who
struggle with that question.Like, so, so what do you do for
work? Yeah, like, but myquestion, the way that I learned
this years ago, was, how do youspend the days of your week? And
then people just sit there andthey're like, What do you mean
(26:10):
by that? I'm like, your choice,your choice, however you want to
answer it. And like, in thiseconomy, people often, more
often than it ever in the past.Like, oh, thank you for saying
it that way. Because, like,people even ask me what I do for
work. Yeah, I'm right now tryingto find something, right, you
know? I'm like, Okay, I'm gladit was useful. Do you have an
opening line when you're the oneasking you about somebody else?
Rachel Saslaw (26:31):
I like to ask, like, what's bringing you joy
lately? What are you passionateabout lately? What have you been
thinking about lately? And thatcan really lead to very abstract
places I think. Like, have youspend your your week is
interesting? But also, like, Idon't know, it's pretty broad,
yeah, be kind of boring. Like,yeah, I go to the gym, I go to
work, like, whatever. Versuslike, what a what's bringing me
(26:54):
joy, or what am I passionateabout? Allows me to kind of dig
into the crevices of my lifethat I'm actually excited about
talking about and I feel likesome people are taken aback and
surprised by that question, butmost people are, like, really
excited for that invitation.
Indra Klavins (27:09):
That's so nice, that is so nice and so generous.
Wow, we've covered so muchground. I want to be mindful of
time any other things that youwant to touch on or tell people
about or thoughts that you wantto share with everyone?
Rachel Saslaw (27:25):
Hmm, I guess that like if I were to give any
advice, and we've talked a lotabout how external advice can be
digested in at your discretion,yeah, but I think listening to
(27:45):
your inner voice and choosing alife that feels good for you,
that radically feels good foryou, even just in the moment,
treating this moment in time asan experiment, and giving
yourself the radical permissionto change your mind, I think
will alleviate and bring a lotof freedom to this question of
(28:07):
like, what am I doing? What doesmy career look like? How do I
identify myself?
Indra Klavins (28:15):
And so that's been a really helpful and
fruitful refrain for me, andhope it might be for you. I
think it will be. It's been forme. I'll speak for the audience
of one. It's been for me. I amso grateful to you for taking
the time to chat with me. I amso grateful for showing people
how you walk in this world. It'sso different than how so many
(28:35):
other people do. So thank youfor that. Thank you. I've
learned something today. I knoweveryone who's listening has
definitely learned somethingtoday. And I hope you all join
us next time. For another topic,for the mess of male matters,
oh, important links to all yourstuff are going to be in the
show notes. We're gonna makesure that that's all there and
(28:57):
all the housekeeping, so you canfind her and follow her and
maybe join one of one of theStoryTells. So thank you. Yeah,
thank you. I really, reallyappreciate it. Okay. Bye,
everyone. Bye.
(29:17):
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle. Word of
Mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
(29:39):
at the messy middle matters.comor in the show notes, thank you
for joining us on this journey.This work is better when we do
it together, until next timeyou.
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