February 4, 2026 • 39 mins
In this episode, Indra and Stephanie Simpson explore the concept of the 'Goo Stage,' a transformative phase in life where individuals experience discomfort and uncertainty. They discuss the importance of navigating transitions, the role of leaders in supporting their teams during these times, and the significance of creating supportive environments. Stephanie shares insights on how to acknowledge and validate feelings during the Goo Stage, emphasizing the need for community and resources to aid in personal growth. The conversation concludes with invitations for listeners to reflect on their support systems and the importance of being present in the moment.
Takeaways
- The Goo Stage represents a transformative phase in life.
- Transitions are crucial and should be navigated intentionally.
- Leaders play a vital role in supporting their teams during change.
- Creating a supportive environment is essential for growth.
- Acknowledging and validating feelings is the first step in navigating the Goo Stage.
- Community support is crucial during times of transition.
- One-size-fits-all solutions are often ineffective.
- Personal growth requires discomfort and vulnerability.
- Resources and tools should be tailored to individual needs.
- Reflection on support systems can enhance personal development.
Follow Stephanie:
- Stephanie on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/stephaniesimpsoncoaching/
- Stephanie’s Website: https://www.stephanie-simpson.com/
- Stephanie on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/stephaniesimpsoncoaching/
More from Indra and The Messy Middle Matters
- Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
- Indra’s Blog: https://peopleprocessthings.substack.com
- The Messy Middle Matters on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themessymiddlematters/
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: https://messymiddlematters.com/feedback
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch https://messymiddlemerch.com
Keywords
Goo Stage, Transition, Change Management, Leadership, Support, Personal Growth, Stress Management, Transformation, Community, Resources
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:05):
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone, welcomeback to the messy middle
matters. I am so excited fortoday's conversation. You know,
something that we've talkedabout in the past is the types
(00:27):
of support that are available inyour companies, the types of
support that aren't available inyour companies, and what we're
going to be talking about today,I don't think I've ever seen any
sort of training or programs oranything related to this inside
of an organization. So before wedig into the content, I want to
(00:48):
welcome Stephanie. Stephanie,welcome, welcome, welcome,
welcome. Thank you for joiningme. Thank you for having me. I'm
really excited about thisconversation and about getting
to connect again with you 100%and so why don't you tell
everybody a little bit aboutyourself, and then we'll dig in.
Yourself, and then we'll diginto the drum roll, please, the
goose stage.
Stephanie Simpson (01:07):
Yeah. So I feel like I'm one of those multi
hyphenates. I'm really excitedthat the culture has started to
embrace that, because many yearsago, when I would do it myself,
people like, no, what are you?And I'm like, I'm many things.
So I start off by first sayingthat all my work comes comes
(01:27):
through the lens of, I'm firstand foremost, a performing
artist, a dancer. From the timeI could walk, I started dancing,
and that's what I didprofessionally for the first 16
years of my career, and seeinglife through that arts, I would
say arts education, arts lensis, is really how I walk through
(01:48):
life and space. And it was beingin the dance world, the musical
theater world, the arts world,that really evolved into what
I'm doing now. So I am anexecutive and leadership
development coach andconsultant. I work with
individuals and teams and teamsgroups and organizations on
(02:11):
helping them navigate change andtransition from in an
intentional way. And there's alot of layers to that. I have a
background in psychology andlike specifically looking at our
relationship with stress, andhow do we make a healthier
relationship with it, so that wecan perform in our lives in a
(02:32):
sustainable way? So I've reallykind of taken all the different
things that I've been curiousabout throughout my life and and
putting them together to giveback to others. And so I'm very
much somebody who I'm alsoexperimenting with all the
things that I'm sharing withother people, and then also
(02:52):
making sure that I'm getting theproper training and
credentialing so that I am beingof service in in a in a healthy
way too for others,
Indra Klavins (03:01):
we could dig in on that last point for days, but
that will derail us from ourtopic for the day. We might show
up a little bit later, but whatI want to do is start talking
about the reason that you'rehere. Like years ago. This is
many, many moons ago. Ayala VanZandt had a book that came out
in the meantime, and the premiseof the book was that, so we
think that our life is aboutthese milestones, but most of
(03:24):
our life is spent in themeantime between milestones.
It's not in the I'll call youthe sexy stuff. It's not the
sexy stuff. It's not theInstagrammable stuff. It's the
everyday, mundane. And in thatmundane there's a lot of
growing, developing, restoring,like, there's different. There's
it's not one thing, it's not onething. And what you've done is
(03:47):
you found this beautifullanguage and this beautiful
framing for the transformationalphases of our life, the goo. So
talk to us a little bit moreabout the goo. Like, how did you
get there? What is it like?
Stephanie Simpson (04:03):
I'm gonna hand it over to you. Yeah,
Indra, as you were saying this,I just had like, a flashback to
when I was directing andchoreographing musicals and and
concert dance and telling myperformers that the transitions
between scenes and thetransitions between the
different movements, those arewhat we're going to make or
(04:28):
break the overall performance,right? Like you could have these
amazing show stopping numbers ina musical, but if the
transition, like the set change,or the transition from big song
to the scene there was clunky oror we weren't paying attention
and being intentional with them,we were going to lose the
(04:50):
audience. We were going to losethe momentum, right? That, like
those transitions are socrucial, and yet we, as you
said, we kind of forget aboutthem, or we or. Or we don't pay
attention to them. We're justlike, oh, we'll fit like,
whatever. I find
Indra Klavins (05:04):
that in post, like, we can't fix it all in
post, no,
Stephanie Simpson (05:10):
especially, I mean, like, I did a lot of live
performance, I wasn't I was inum, film and television as well,
but like, a lot of liveperformance, you can't fix like
it. You got to figure it out,right? So I guess just another
way to say that, like I look ateverything through, like, if we
were on stage. And what thatalso reminded me of is like,
(05:32):
even in my own life, I findmyself getting getting stuck on,
like, Okay, what's next, and notactually living in, where am I
right now, and that there isn'tanything wrong when we're in
that space, that that doesn'thave maybe a peak, right, that,
like, we need that space inbetween as well. So those are
(05:52):
some things that came up that,to answer your question about
like the stage, is that if weactually really think of
ourselves as almost always beingin transition to some extent,
right? Like we always aretransitioning into something,
but in these bigger stages, likemaybe seasons of life, I like to
say, like season, some peoplemight say chapters. But in these
(06:15):
different seasons of life, we dotransform in different ways. And
over the last few years, I'vealways been really intrigued by
butterflies, like just alwayshave been. And the more I was,
like, learning about them, overlike, the last like, decade and
stuff, I'm like, Whoa. I guess Ididn't realize that when the
(06:37):
butterfly goes in the chrysalis,which some people listening,
might be like, What do you meana cocoon? Little, little side
note, cocoon is for moths, whichis totally fine. You want to be
a moth. That's fine, too,though, if we're really thinking
of butterflies, right, thecaterpillar going into the
butterfly that, that EricCarlisle book we all probably
read when we were a kid, aHungry, Hungry Caterpillar. What
(07:00):
we don't talk a lot about iswhat happens in that chrysalis.
And what actually happens inthat chrysalis is that the
caterpillar goes into goo, likefull liquid goo, pulpa, like all
of those science words, right?And it is the chrysalis that is
holding it so that it can fullylike form into a different
(07:23):
state, so that it can thentransition and transform into
another state, which is thebutterfly, right? And I was it
like, it like, I don't know,light bulb moment, if we want to
call it a couple of years ago,where I was like, we just always
talk about, like, Caterpillar tobutterfly, but we're not
actually pausing and going, whathappens in the chrysalis, in
(07:47):
that goo stage, and it'suncomfortable, right? And, I
mean, I guess in a more likeprivate way, I just remember
couple, about almost a year anda half, maybe two, well, close
to two years ago now, just beingin one of those states where I
was, like, the language I wastelling my friends, I was like,
I just feel like I'm a puddle.And I was like, curled up on my
(08:09):
couch, just like in the fetalposition, just like feeling
like, I mean, I'm crying a lot,just like feeling like a lot was
going and I was like, I justfeels weird. I just feel like
I'm in a puddle and and that isa very vulnerable state,
obviously. And so being in thegoose stage is a vulnerable
place to be. And so I startedthinking about, okay, but the
(08:31):
the caterpillar makes it out tothe being the butterfly, because
it has the chrysalis. And solike, what are, what's my
chrysalis right in that moment.And then I started thinking,
Well, what's other people'schrysalis? And, like, what's an
organization's chrysalis whenthey're going through change?
And it just kind of started toevolve from there.
Indra Klavins (08:51):
Yeah, it's, it's, um, one of the things that's
coming to mind is like, you're,you're surrendering also to
being the goo. Because if youavoid the goo, I'm just
imagining, and I don't know thescience behind, like, okay, one
of my besties, bestie, Mary andI have this retirement plan.
We're gonna, we're going to bebutterfly docents. There's a
(09:12):
whole story behind it as ourretirement plan, that's gonna be
it. We're gonna be the ladieswith the like, the anyway, so,
but it's a sir. I imaginethere's a surrender to it, like
if the butterfly, of, excuse me,if the caterpillar avoided
becoming goo, if it resistedbecoming goo, I would imagine
(09:33):
that it cannot actually emergeas a butterfly. It'll get stuck
as some warped version of goothat is still trying to
Caterpillar, right? And I don'tknow if that science tracks, but
it feels like it might.
Stephanie Simpson (09:48):
You know, I also, I'm just gonna say, I
don't know about the science,but it is making me go, I'm
gonna look into this afterwards.Because, yeah, I mean, there's
got to be some caterpillars thatdon't fully. Really make it to
the other side of thetransformation, right? And so I
you know, as you were talkingabout the resistance, and
resistance is so normal whenchange is happening, right?
(10:11):
Like, I would say that'sprobably the most human thing,
is to resist change, even thoughChange is the only thing that
only constant in life, right?Like, it's so wild, and so it's
very human to resist it. And thereason it's really human to
resist it is because changemeans we're moving into
something we don't know, right?Like it's the unknown, it's
(10:33):
uncertain, and so therefore itfeels scary, right? So the brain
goes, oh, gosh, this is scary.And what happens with the brain
is the brain can't differentiatebetween, oh, I'm being chased by
a bear, to oh, this is reallyscary. I don't know what's
coming next in my life, right?And the brain is designed to
(10:53):
keep us safe, and so the way itkeeps us safe is by going into
our stress reaction. And Ispecifically use the word
reaction, right? Because it's,it's a habitual response. We
just so when we get when we'reafraid, and depending on what
the the catalyst for that, whatwe call the stressor, the
perceived threat, we'll eitherchoose to go into fight, flight,
(11:16):
freeze or fawn. And those arepractice things from when we
were younger, right? And likewe're designed to do that so
that we can stay alive, right?The thing is that not every
change is a bad thing, right?Some might even say every change
is a good thing, if we choose tolook at it that way, right? Like
(11:39):
that, we can find the the thebenefit or the growth
opportunity in anything that'shappening, if we so choose to
see it that way. And so theresistance part, the more that
we resist something. We'reactually just exhausting
ourselves because we're stayingstuck in that stress reaction.
(12:00):
And we're not designed to stayin the stress reaction, that
stress cycle hormonally in anysort of way, and so that's where
we then end up being exhausted,right? And then maybe even burnt
out, or a myriad of other thingsthat could happen, which would,
in stress management science, wecall the strain or the outcome
(12:20):
of the process. Yeah, I
Indra Klavins (12:23):
love that. I love that. And something that popped
into my brain was something thatI heard said, comfort and safety
are not correlated. There can becoincidental, like they can show
up together, but comfort andsafety are not the same thing.
And if you're in the goo stage.It's uncomfortable, like the
chrysalis is the safety. The goois not comfortable, right? You
(12:48):
know? And people just, I wantpeople just to really hear that,
because when, when I heard, Iheard that from Frances fry,
when she said it, I was like,Oh, this is money, this phrase,
right? And what you'redescribing, like I said, is
discomfort in a safe environmentand navigating, navigating that
(13:09):
goo to hopefully emerge as abig, beautiful butterfly.
Stephanie Simpson (13:13):
Yeah, I love the language you're using, and I
want to share how I actually usethis in in practice. So I, as
part of my business portfolio, Iadjunct at a one of the CUNY
colleges in New York City, whichis where I'm based, and I teach
stress management, and I teachyoga. And every semester, I
(13:37):
start off with all three classeswith what, what I call creating
a partnership agreement with theclassroom. Because, as you can
hopefully, people can imaginethose topics of stress
management and and yoga, theyare not just lecture based
things. We are we it's anexperiential class. And both are
designed to be, to be, hopefullytransformative for for the
(14:00):
students, if they so choose toparticipate in that sort of way,
right? They also have agency andhow they want to participate.
And so in order to do that, likeyou said, we have to get
uncomfortable. And so I say weneed to create a space, a
container. So we're creatingthis chrysalis together, right?
Of, how do we feel supported inthis space, not necessarily safe
(14:25):
and comfortable, right? But howdo we feel supported? Because
there are going to be momentsnow, do I some people might be
like, well, we want to be safe,and there's that whole language
around safe spaces and all ofthat. What, what I hope that
people mean by safe spaces isthat people are not being
judged. They're not being hurtintentionally in those spaces.
(14:45):
However that safety and comfortand all of that, like, I want
people to feel supported, sothat they so that, I guess, they
feel safe in that way, but like,at the same time that they feel
supported to be safe, or howeverwe want to say it. Be
uncomfortable, because ifthey're not uncomfortable at
some point during the semester,they're not embodying the work
(15:07):
that we're trying to do to getto that place of transformation
at the end of the semester, ofwhatever transformation that
they are going through, right?Like, I don't know exactly, but
and so then we spend timetalking about what is it that we
need from other people to feelsupported, to be uncomfortable,
(15:28):
and what are we willing to give?Because when we use the word
partnership, partnership isabout two or more people giving
and receiving 100% to each otherand to to to the space right, to
the to the chrysalis and that.And so some people might call
these all those are just norms.That's just all that. And I I
(15:48):
always like, kind of go back andsay, well, a norm is usually
something that is given to you.It's a rule. It's a thing like
that. This is more about how dowe want to be together? And one
of my friends, peers,colleagues, who's a therapist,
always reminds me, like we'rehuman beings, not human doings.
(16:09):
And I see this in the corporatespaces all the time. They just
jump into the doing, right?Like, do, do, do, do, and they
forget that, like, well, you'redoing this with human beings and
human beings like we need topause and we need to understand,
how do we want to actually be inrelationship with each other,
and taking that pause to createthat container, whether it's
(16:31):
through a partnership agreementor other things, helps people
feel more supported when they'regoing through these
uncomfortable stages.
Indra Klavins (16:40):
Okay, so many things are in my brain right
now. The first thing is socialcontracts. You're creating a
social contract for the roomthat everyone in that room buys
into like it's it's not you'renot dictating a contract. You're
co creating and shaping thatcontract with everyone in that
room. The other thing that Iwant to acknowledge is that the
(17:03):
way that you're describing andthe way that I've experienced
you like walking in this world,it demonstrates the depth of
understanding of what yourskills are, what it requires to
create an environment that issupportive, that has The
integrity that you're lookingfor, for people to be able to go
(17:24):
slightly goo, glue, flirt with,flirt with goo, whatever like
it's you are so skilled in whatyou do, and you understand how
to support that you alsounderstand your limits. So I
just want to give that shoutout, and I want to call that
out, because not everyone, thereare a lot of people running
around, and I won't name names,like, there's there's some
people with very famous booksthat are run around with all
(17:46):
sorts of authority around thesetypes of things, but it's not
grounded in education or livedexperience, though, that you're
walking through this. So I justwant to just say that like,
thank you for doing what you'redoing. Thank you for normalizing
goo. Thank you for creating anenvironment that the goo can
flourish in. I don't even knowif that's the right word.
Stephanie Simpson (18:07):
I really, I really appreciate that, and
while I am working on accepting,you know, feedback and
compliments in that way, I'mgoing to just say thank you, and
I'm gonna add to it that I feellike I've been in spaces where
the person of power or influencewas not necessarily doing it in
(18:32):
a way that felt effective. AndI've I have felt the the what
that does to me, to others inthe system and all of that. And
in in my I did two differentgraduate programs. The first one
was an MFA in dance, and that,again, laid the foundation to a
lot of the work I'm doing rightnow. I was in a group of us in
(18:57):
the grad program. We're in a adance process with a guest
choreographer, and it was, itwas not a healthy one. It was
pretty toxic. And I and I mean,we did a great job, because we
ourselves came together andsaid, We're doing this for us
and not for this person and theego that was involved in all of
that. And so we ended upperforming really well, right?
(19:19):
Though, that process of gettingthere was not sustainable. And I
got really interested for mythesis project on that idea of,
like peak performance andsustainable performance. And I
went into it like thinking, howdo we do this for individuals?
And there isn't a lot ofresearch around, like dance in
(19:40):
like, peak performance andtheater and stuff, but there is
the whole field of sportspsychology. So I ended up
studying sports psychology andgoing, what are you doing with
all these athletes, and how dowe bring it into the dance
studio? And I would say, I mean,there's so many gifts that I got
in that, that exploration, thatresearch process, and one of
them being that I started.Learning more about leaders and
(20:02):
like the leader'sresponsibility, and that
leadership is not aboutexpertise all the time, right?
That Leadership isn't abouthaving all the answers, that
Leadership isn't about beingauthoritarian and dictating and
having power over leadership isabout understanding that group
(20:22):
that you have. Now, I will saythis, if you all have the
similar goals, like in sports,like, you know, win whatever
Indra Klavins (20:29):
big game, sports ball, win sports ball. Yes,
like,
Stephanie Simpson (20:33):
if that is the goal that everybody has, the
coach is actually, and I talkedto a bunch of coaches in various
various sports. I'm a big sportsperson. In brain, my brain is
fogging. It's okay.
Indra Klavins (20:50):
We can blame the cold. There's a big freeze going
over the US right now. We'reblaming everything on the cold,
Stephanie Simpson (20:55):
you know, whether it's basketball or
soccer or football or any ofthose. And the coaches were
saying, like most of my job isto understand my players and
help motivated, inspire them tobe able to do the thing that I
know they're good at, right, andto get the team to be cohesive
(21:16):
and trust each other and knowtheir roles and be there and all
of that. So are there, like,skills that they practice, of
course, and like the physicalthings and the routes and the
plays and the blah blah and allof that, though, there's also a
big mental, emotional part ofit. And I was like, Oh, that is
missing a lot in the experienceI had with this, this guest
(21:39):
choreographer. But then Istarted going, it's missing a
lot in a lot of areas of life.You know, when we look at the
corporate world, whether it's amanager and then a leader, or
division head, department head,Managing Director, all of those
like, how are you actuallyleading your team? And that is,
(22:02):
that is about being part of agroup, and that takes a
different skill set. And so Ilike, I appreciate that you're
that you recognize that I'm I'mreally trying to put these
things into practice, even in myown work, so that I'm not
continuing these toxic cyclesthat are so prevalent in many
(22:22):
areas of our life.
Indra Klavins (22:24):
It's very American to like, command the
spotlight and speak withauthority, even when you don't
have it. It's just like or thedepth that support that
authority. But you know, this isa lovely transition into so we
can take, I want to hit both ofthem, and you can choose the
sequence in which we hit themlike, how can leaders support
their team when they're in goo,right? Or they're they can sense
(22:48):
their team is in goo. How canthey recognize it's supported?
And so the companion questionis, and again, I don't know
what's the best sequence to talkabout them. When somebody feels
like, oh my gosh, I feel like apuddle, right? I feel myself
feeling like nothing fitsanymore, like I can't figure out
my head for my tail, and I can'tfigure out why. Like the body.
(23:09):
What is it? The Body Keeps theScore. The body can interpret
something faster than the braincan, right? Like, how? What?
What recommendations you havefor somebody who's in goo to
help them navigate through itand emerge and emerge better
than they walked into that goostage as Yeah.
Stephanie Simpson (23:25):
Okay. So the first answer I have actually
goes to both okay topics. Thefirst thing I would say is
acknowledge and validate it. Sowhen we are in like we just
said, the goo stage is going toactivate a stress reaction,
right? And so we are going tothink that we're in danger, that
we are that something's wrong,that we need to fix it, right?
(23:48):
And so when we go that we needto save ourselves and all of
that. So whether you are aleader and you're seeing that in
a team, whether you're seeing itin yourself, is to pause and
actually acknowledge andvalidate that you're in this and
that it's okay, right? Soearlier I said I specifically
use the word stress reaction.When we're trying to create a
(24:10):
healthy relationship withstress, one that, like, works
with and for us and not againstus, we need to respond, right?
So a reaction is just like,habitual. We're not even
thinking about it. It's like,literally, we just react right
response. In order to do that,we need to create a pause, and
we need to start to regulateourselves. Right when we're in
(24:33):
the stress reaction, we'redysregulated. So start to
regulate ourselves so that wecan respond in an intentional
way. So I needed my hands, so Ineeded to put my inside out
anxiety model. When we're in thestress reaction, we're in tunnel
vision, right? So there's thiswe can only see what's right in
(24:56):
front of us. Sometimes there's alight at the end of that tunnel.
But. Sometimes it feels likethat light just keeps getting
further and further away, right?And what we're doing usually is
the same thing we've done allthe time. So it's either running
away, fighting back, numbingout, freezing, fawning, which is
like overly performative,engaging, and making sure
everybody else is okay. And whatwe need to do is remind
(25:18):
ourselves, hey, I'm okay. Thisis something's happening. I
don't know what it is yet, butsomething is happening, and I
I'm going to be brave, and I'mgoing to figure out what it is,
but we're going to take it stepby step. That's if an
individual, a leader, is goingto acknowledge to the team. So
over the last few years, I wouldsay, you know, definitely the
(25:42):
last five years, there's been alot of reorgs. There's been a
lot of just one or two change,right, you know, and so naming
as a leader, like we are goingthrough a lot of change. It is
understandable that you areprobably exhausted, that you are
scared, that you are mourningthe loss of some of your
(26:05):
colleagues who are not hereanymore, right? So we haven't
even touched on the fact thatthe goo stage brings up a ton of
grief. And what that whole wecould do a whole different
podcast
Indra Klavins (26:15):
on that I got. We should. We really should, if
you're up for it, I would loveto
Stephanie Simpson (26:19):
Yes, to talk about that, because we don't
talk about grief in its totalityas much as I think we need to.
And I have noticed in sessionswith teams and individuals, when
I mentioned, hey, it sounds likeyou're grieving. I can then just
see so again, this isacknowledging and validating. I
can see their systems just kindof go, oh,
Indra Klavins (26:43):
not just me. Oh, my God. I'm not hallucinating
this. This is really happening.
Stephanie Simpson (26:47):
Like, you're right. I am right. And when we
think about I know we're getting
Indra Klavins (26:51):
a little Tanner. It's okay. We're giving him a
teaser for the next episode thatwe do. I'll bring
Stephanie Simpson (26:56):
it back to the caterpillar here. The
caterpillar literally lets go ofits entire state. It it lets go
of its identity. It is no longera caterpillar. And I use this in
a lot of my writing, of the factthat the caterpillar is a land
bound creature, unless it tries,like unless it takes a lot of
time to crawl up a tree and allof that right, like it is land
(27:18):
bound and it doesn't know what'son the other side of it. And so
I'd said bravery and courage tosay, like, I'm brave. I
encouraged to be able to movethrough this. I don't know
what's next. That's what happensto the caterpillar. It's like, I
don't know I'm supposed to beeating. I'm eating, I'm eating,
I'm building this thing. I don'tknow what's going to happen, but
I'm going to trust that, and I'mgoing to be brave and courageous
(27:40):
in doing this, and then it losesits an entire identity to then
become this butterfly that nowis a land and sky bound right, a
caterpillar. I mean, a butterflycan fly and see so many other
things and migrate. It migratesexactly right, like all of this
(28:01):
other stuff, to be able to bethat. So if we think about,
okay, I'm in my stress cycle.Here is this, if I can start to
regulate myself by acknowledgingand validating that what I'm in
makes sense, it'sunderstandable. It might be
challenging, and I trust thatI'm going to find my way
through. We start going, Oh, I'msafer. And then I think, I am
(28:27):
right. Maybe we go, Hey, I needto talk to a friend, or I need
to reach out to somebody. Now,we're getting support from other
people, right? We call thatsocial support. And then all of
a sudden, the blinders startopening up, and we can see more
things. And we go, oh, wait,maybe there's this thing over
here that I could like explore.Maybe there's this thing over
here I could explore, or maybe Icould choose to look at what I'm
(28:51):
in in a different way, right?Like, so then perspective, like,
you're wearing glasses today,right? Things look very
different when you take yourglasses off. I assume I also
wear glasses and so like, we canchoose to have them on and have
them off, and it's going tochange how we see things, which
is then going to change how wefeel about them, which is then
(29:11):
going to change how we respondto them, right? So that was kind
of an answer for both of thosethings.
Indra Klavins (29:18):
I love that, and I the, I guess the I guess, the
next question I have, findingthe right resources. I touched
on it a little bit where, youknow, I've, I've been on my own
versions of journeys too, andI've had both good teachers and
bad teachers. I think I'velearned just as much from both,
maybe more from the bad ones,because maybe it goes a volume
(29:38):
or because it hits, hitsdifferently. But what resources?
Of course, we're going to makesure all your information isn't
shown us. Feel free to shout outyour stuff. But what are the
good resources? Touchstones,things for people to just like,
I love having like, a goodTouchstone when I'm going
through something, so I can lookat it every once, and I'll be
like, okay, just keep going.Just keep going. Right?
Stephanie Simpson (29:59):
Yeah, yeah. So there's a couple of like
people that come to mind that Ialways kind of come back to. I'm
a big Dr Brene Brown fan, andher different books, she has so
many of them. The first book ofhers that I read, it wasn't the
first book, I don't think shewrote was the gifts of
(30:19):
imperfections. And I definitelycome back to that one at
different times. And Her mostrecent book that I'm working my
way through is called strongground. And one of the things I
really appreciate about her isthat she's very open about how
she's using these tools too, andwhen she's successful at them
(30:41):
and when she's not. And so forme, the other thing that came up
as you were talking was havingpeople really trust themselves
and their own intuition aroundthings, right? There's so much
information out there in theworld, and there's so many
people that are trying to sellthings to be helpful. And I
(31:03):
truly do believe, like, when youdo pause and you think to
yourself, What is my bodytelling me right now? Not my
brain, because your brain isgoing to go from that fear
place, right? So someone's goingto say on Instagram or LinkedIn
or whatever they're on, right?Like, here's how I did this, and
here's how I did this. And this,you could do this, and these
(31:23):
three steps, and blah, blah,blah, and they're selling your
brain is like, Okay, I needthat. I need that. I need that.
Okay, I'm gonna get Yeah, Igotta do this. But somewhere, if
you pause, your body will tellyou, does this feel right to me?
Does this feel and and if it'slike, Well, I do really like
what they're saying about thisgreat and then ask questions,
(31:44):
right? Be curious. Ask questionsall the time. Always ask
questions. I really appreciatewhat you said about like you
learned from both the good andthe bad, because I think, and
that maybe even more from thebad. I've had similar
experiences and and I think ait's a choice to learn from both
(32:04):
of them, and we actually canlearn so much from the
experiences that maybe were badand all that to make them
experiences that are actuallythen very useful for us. And I
remember years ago, I hired acoach, and I she was referred by
somebody else that I knew reallyclose. And so there was all this
(32:25):
stuff, but I was definitely inthis kind of fear sort of place,
and I could feel in my bodythat, like I didn't know whether
this was the right thing, but Igot wrapped up in all of it. I
hired her. I paid her up front.I think about how much I paid
her at this point, and I waslike, Oh, my God. Like, that was
a lot of money. Like, how didthat happen? And then the moment
(32:48):
we got into this coachingcontainer, and I was very open
about what I wanted and what Ineeded and what my goals were,
as soon as the money hit, and assoon as we got into
conversation, the like, it waslike, Well, I can't do that. Oh,
I don't know that you'll have todo that. And I was just like,
whoa. What just happened here,right? And so it took me, like,
(33:09):
I continued it in a way that Iwas like, Well, what do I want
to how do I want to take agencyback? Like, that's the other
thing is, like, when we're inour stress reaction, we are no
longer in the driver's seat.Fear is when we're in stress
when we're responding, fear isstill there, but we're in the
driver's seat, right? Like, it'sstill, like in the back seat or
in the trunk, but we are stilldriving the car. And so I was
(33:31):
like, Okay, how do I take backmy agency in here? Because I'm
not getting my money back. But Ilearned a lot about that. And
one of the other things Ilearned from that experience
was, listen, we could talk aboutcredentialing and all of that,
and some of it is great, andsome of it is like a lot of
other stuff, and really learnabout the person that you're
hiring, right, or really learnabout the person that you're
(33:52):
listening to on podcasts andthings like that, if that person
can't also be a human being andlike, share in a very authentic
way, not in a packaged socialmedia advertising sort of way,
but in a very real way about howthey are also a human trying to
(34:12):
figure this out too. That's whenmy spidey senses would be like,
maybe that's not somebody tocontinue to follow in all of
that. So Brene Brown comes upfor me. Honestly, I listen to
like podcasts, like armchairexpert, because what I love
about that is they bring ondifferent people from a lot on
Wednesdays, from a lot ofdifferent fields, and so that I
(34:34):
can listen to a lot of differentpeople's, like things, and when
I say different fields, like allover the place, and then,
usually they're, you know, onthe Wednesday shows, they're
usually promoting a book of somesort. Then I go, Okay, I'm
interested in, like, readingpart of that book or whatever.
So I always tell people just bereally curious, like, pull from
different things and then sitwith it and go, what works for
(34:55):
me, even with my clients, I willsay, like, I want to try. To
give you as many resources andtools as possible, so that when
you are navigating life, youhave a toolbox of so many
different things that you canpull on. Because one day one
tool might work. The next day itmight not. So which one do you
want to pull from? I love that.
Indra Klavins (35:18):
I You said so much that was money. That was
money. And the one, the onesmall thing that I can add to
what you've said, because you'vecovered so much territory, if
they're selling a one size fitsall solution, that's that, to
me, is red flag, red flag, redflag, red flag. Because, to your
point, everyone is different,and you yourself can be
(35:39):
different days and in differentscenarios and in different
contexts. So one size fits allfor something like this,
probably not the most skilled ornuanced or person with depth, a
lot of surface shine, right? SoI love it. Yeah, definitely, we
(36:00):
covered so much territory, andyou will come back. Yes, yes,
yes, love, love, love, love,anything else you want to leave
everyone with before we signoff. I guess,
Stephanie Simpson (36:12):
like, in thinking about like the
chrysalis, I guess the questionsare like invitations that I
would leave people with isthinking about like, what does
support look like for you whenyou're going through transition?
Because even in this last chunkof like, thinking about, like,
Help and Resources and stuff, Ialways try to, like, also
educate people on, like, thedifferent forms of help and
(36:34):
like, what help do you need whenand when we are scared and
overwhelmed and in that fearstate and all of that we we just
want to feel better, right? Andso we'll just kind of go to the
thing that is that easy comfort,maybe at the first thing. And so
being able to really reflectwhen you're not fully in that
(36:58):
state, what is it that actuallysupports me. Who supports me,
right? Like I, one thing Ireally do pride myself on is
like the my community. I likethe people in my community. I
love them dearly. I know theylove me dearly and and so when I
am going dipping into differentlike goo states and stuff, I
(37:20):
know that there are people I cancall, whether it's a voice note
or actual phone call or a text,who are going to show up for me,
right? And like they're going tobe there to help hold just the
same way I am for them, right?Like that is our partnership.
That, to me, is partnership,right? So really thinking about
what does support look like forme, and who are those people
(37:42):
that can help me? What are thosethings that help me? Like, if
it's, you know, physicalactivity, what are the things
that help you to be, to feelgood? Like I run and dance, have
dance parties in my home, like,whatever that may be, so that
you are building your chrysalis,right? Like, so that it is there
for you when you need it. So Ithink that would be my like last
(38:04):
invitation for people.
Indra Klavins (38:07):
I We have barely scratched the surface.
Stephanie, I am delighted. I amso glad that we know each other.
I'm so glad that we're we aresome part of each other's
chrysalises. Yes, and I lookforward to you joining us again
for at least one more episode. Ifeel like there might be more. I
(38:27):
would begin talk a little bitmore about all the things I am
positive folks got something outof this episode, whether it's
for themselves or for somebodythat they know. Hopefully they
feel seen in this episode. And Ihope you'll all join us next
time for another topic for themessy middle. Bye everyone.
(38:50):
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle. Word of
mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
(39:11):
at the messy middle matters.com,or in the show notes. Thank you
for joining us on this journey.This work is better when we do
it together. Until next timeyou.
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone, welcomeback to the messy middle
matters. I am so excited fortoday's conversation. You know,
something that we've talkedabout in the past is the types
(00:27):
of support that are available inyour companies, the types of
support that aren't available inyour companies, and what we're
going to be talking about today,I don't think I've ever seen any
sort of training or programs oranything related to this inside
of an organization. So before wedig into the content, I want to
(00:48):
welcome Stephanie. Stephanie,welcome, welcome, welcome,
welcome. Thank you for joiningme. Thank you for having me. I'm
really excited about thisconversation and about getting
to connect again with you 100%and so why don't you tell
everybody a little bit aboutyourself, and then we'll dig in.
Yourself, and then we'll diginto the drum roll, please, the
goose stage.
Stephanie Simpson (01:07):
Yeah. So I feel like I'm one of those multi
hyphenates. I'm really excitedthat the culture has started to
embrace that, because many yearsago, when I would do it myself,
people like, no, what are you?And I'm like, I'm many things.
So I start off by first sayingthat all my work comes comes
(01:27):
through the lens of, I'm firstand foremost, a performing
artist, a dancer. From the timeI could walk, I started dancing,
and that's what I didprofessionally for the first 16
years of my career, and seeinglife through that arts, I would
say arts education, arts lensis, is really how I walk through
(01:48):
life and space. And it was beingin the dance world, the musical
theater world, the arts world,that really evolved into what
I'm doing now. So I am anexecutive and leadership
development coach andconsultant. I work with
individuals and teams and teamsgroups and organizations on
(02:11):
helping them navigate change andtransition from in an
intentional way. And there's alot of layers to that. I have a
background in psychology andlike specifically looking at our
relationship with stress, andhow do we make a healthier
relationship with it, so that wecan perform in our lives in a
(02:32):
sustainable way? So I've reallykind of taken all the different
things that I've been curiousabout throughout my life and and
putting them together to giveback to others. And so I'm very
much somebody who I'm alsoexperimenting with all the
things that I'm sharing withother people, and then also
(02:52):
making sure that I'm getting theproper training and
credentialing so that I am beingof service in in a in a healthy
way too for others,
Indra Klavins (03:01):
we could dig in on that last point for days, but
that will derail us from ourtopic for the day. We might show
up a little bit later, but whatI want to do is start talking
about the reason that you'rehere. Like years ago. This is
many, many moons ago. Ayala VanZandt had a book that came out
in the meantime, and the premiseof the book was that, so we
think that our life is aboutthese milestones, but most of
(03:24):
our life is spent in themeantime between milestones.
It's not in the I'll call youthe sexy stuff. It's not the
sexy stuff. It's not theInstagrammable stuff. It's the
everyday, mundane. And in thatmundane there's a lot of
growing, developing, restoring,like, there's different. There's
it's not one thing, it's not onething. And what you've done is
(03:47):
you found this beautifullanguage and this beautiful
framing for the transformationalphases of our life, the goo. So
talk to us a little bit moreabout the goo. Like, how did you
get there? What is it like?
Stephanie Simpson (04:03):
I'm gonna hand it over to you. Yeah,
Indra, as you were saying this,I just had like, a flashback to
when I was directing andchoreographing musicals and and
concert dance and telling myperformers that the transitions
between scenes and thetransitions between the
different movements, those arewhat we're going to make or
(04:28):
break the overall performance,right? Like you could have these
amazing show stopping numbers ina musical, but if the
transition, like the set change,or the transition from big song
to the scene there was clunky oror we weren't paying attention
and being intentional with them,we were going to lose the
(04:50):
audience. We were going to losethe momentum, right? That, like
those transitions are socrucial, and yet we, as you
said, we kind of forget aboutthem, or we or. Or we don't pay
attention to them. We're justlike, oh, we'll fit like,
whatever. I find
Indra Klavins (05:04):
that in post, like, we can't fix it all in
post, no,
Stephanie Simpson (05:10):
especially, I mean, like, I did a lot of live
performance, I wasn't I was inum, film and television as well,
but like, a lot of liveperformance, you can't fix like
it. You got to figure it out,right? So I guess just another
way to say that, like I look ateverything through, like, if we
were on stage. And what thatalso reminded me of is like,
(05:32):
even in my own life, I findmyself getting getting stuck on,
like, Okay, what's next, and notactually living in, where am I
right now, and that there isn'tanything wrong when we're in
that space, that that doesn'thave maybe a peak, right, that,
like, we need that space inbetween as well. So those are
(05:52):
some things that came up that,to answer your question about
like the stage, is that if weactually really think of
ourselves as almost always beingin transition to some extent,
right? Like we always aretransitioning into something,
but in these bigger stages, likemaybe seasons of life, I like to
say, like season, some peoplemight say chapters. But in these
(06:15):
different seasons of life, we dotransform in different ways. And
over the last few years, I'vealways been really intrigued by
butterflies, like just alwayshave been. And the more I was,
like, learning about them, overlike, the last like, decade and
stuff, I'm like, Whoa. I guess Ididn't realize that when the
(06:37):
butterfly goes in the chrysalis,which some people listening,
might be like, What do you meana cocoon? Little, little side
note, cocoon is for moths, whichis totally fine. You want to be
a moth. That's fine, too,though, if we're really thinking
of butterflies, right, thecaterpillar going into the
butterfly that, that EricCarlisle book we all probably
read when we were a kid, aHungry, Hungry Caterpillar. What
(07:00):
we don't talk a lot about iswhat happens in that chrysalis.
And what actually happens inthat chrysalis is that the
caterpillar goes into goo, likefull liquid goo, pulpa, like all
of those science words, right?And it is the chrysalis that is
holding it so that it can fullylike form into a different
(07:23):
state, so that it can thentransition and transform into
another state, which is thebutterfly, right? And I was it
like, it like, I don't know,light bulb moment, if we want to
call it a couple of years ago,where I was like, we just always
talk about, like, Caterpillar tobutterfly, but we're not
actually pausing and going, whathappens in the chrysalis, in
(07:47):
that goo stage, and it'suncomfortable, right? And, I
mean, I guess in a more likeprivate way, I just remember
couple, about almost a year anda half, maybe two, well, close
to two years ago now, just beingin one of those states where I
was, like, the language I wastelling my friends, I was like,
I just feel like I'm a puddle.And I was like, curled up on my
(08:09):
couch, just like in the fetalposition, just like feeling
like, I mean, I'm crying a lot,just like feeling like a lot was
going and I was like, I justfeels weird. I just feel like
I'm in a puddle and and that isa very vulnerable state,
obviously. And so being in thegoose stage is a vulnerable
place to be. And so I startedthinking about, okay, but the
(08:31):
the caterpillar makes it out tothe being the butterfly, because
it has the chrysalis. And solike, what are, what's my
chrysalis right in that moment.And then I started thinking,
Well, what's other people'schrysalis? And, like, what's an
organization's chrysalis whenthey're going through change?
And it just kind of started toevolve from there.
Indra Klavins (08:51):
Yeah, it's, it's, um, one of the things that's
coming to mind is like, you're,you're surrendering also to
being the goo. Because if youavoid the goo, I'm just
imagining, and I don't know thescience behind, like, okay, one
of my besties, bestie, Mary andI have this retirement plan.
We're gonna, we're going to bebutterfly docents. There's a
(09:12):
whole story behind it as ourretirement plan, that's gonna be
it. We're gonna be the ladieswith the like, the anyway, so,
but it's a sir. I imaginethere's a surrender to it, like
if the butterfly, of, excuse me,if the caterpillar avoided
becoming goo, if it resistedbecoming goo, I would imagine
(09:33):
that it cannot actually emergeas a butterfly. It'll get stuck
as some warped version of goothat is still trying to
Caterpillar, right? And I don'tknow if that science tracks, but
it feels like it might.
Stephanie Simpson (09:48):
You know, I also, I'm just gonna say, I
don't know about the science,but it is making me go, I'm
gonna look into this afterwards.Because, yeah, I mean, there's
got to be some caterpillars thatdon't fully. Really make it to
the other side of thetransformation, right? And so I
you know, as you were talkingabout the resistance, and
resistance is so normal whenchange is happening, right?
(10:11):
Like, I would say that'sprobably the most human thing,
is to resist change, even thoughChange is the only thing that
only constant in life, right?Like, it's so wild, and so it's
very human to resist it. And thereason it's really human to
resist it is because changemeans we're moving into
something we don't know, right?Like it's the unknown, it's
(10:33):
uncertain, and so therefore itfeels scary, right? So the brain
goes, oh, gosh, this is scary.And what happens with the brain
is the brain can't differentiatebetween, oh, I'm being chased by
a bear, to oh, this is reallyscary. I don't know what's
coming next in my life, right?And the brain is designed to
(10:53):
keep us safe, and so the way itkeeps us safe is by going into
our stress reaction. And Ispecifically use the word
reaction, right? Because it's,it's a habitual response. We
just so when we get when we'reafraid, and depending on what
the the catalyst for that, whatwe call the stressor, the
perceived threat, we'll eitherchoose to go into fight, flight,
(11:16):
freeze or fawn. And those arepractice things from when we
were younger, right? And likewe're designed to do that so
that we can stay alive, right?The thing is that not every
change is a bad thing, right?Some might even say every change
is a good thing, if we choose tolook at it that way, right? Like
(11:39):
that, we can find the the thebenefit or the growth
opportunity in anything that'shappening, if we so choose to
see it that way. And so theresistance part, the more that
we resist something. We'reactually just exhausting
ourselves because we're stayingstuck in that stress reaction.
(12:00):
And we're not designed to stayin the stress reaction, that
stress cycle hormonally in anysort of way, and so that's where
we then end up being exhausted,right? And then maybe even burnt
out, or a myriad of other thingsthat could happen, which would,
in stress management science, wecall the strain or the outcome
(12:20):
of the process. Yeah, I
Indra Klavins (12:23):
love that. I love that. And something that popped
into my brain was something thatI heard said, comfort and safety
are not correlated. There can becoincidental, like they can show
up together, but comfort andsafety are not the same thing.
And if you're in the goo stage.It's uncomfortable, like the
chrysalis is the safety. The goois not comfortable, right? You
(12:48):
know? And people just, I wantpeople just to really hear that,
because when, when I heard, Iheard that from Frances fry,
when she said it, I was like,Oh, this is money, this phrase,
right? And what you'redescribing, like I said, is
discomfort in a safe environmentand navigating, navigating that
(13:09):
goo to hopefully emerge as abig, beautiful butterfly.
Stephanie Simpson (13:13):
Yeah, I love the language you're using, and I
want to share how I actually usethis in in practice. So I, as
part of my business portfolio, Iadjunct at a one of the CUNY
colleges in New York City, whichis where I'm based, and I teach
stress management, and I teachyoga. And every semester, I
(13:37):
start off with all three classeswith what, what I call creating
a partnership agreement with theclassroom. Because, as you can
hopefully, people can imaginethose topics of stress
management and and yoga, theyare not just lecture based
things. We are we it's anexperiential class. And both are
designed to be, to be, hopefullytransformative for for the
(14:00):
students, if they so choose toparticipate in that sort of way,
right? They also have agency andhow they want to participate.
And so in order to do that, likeyou said, we have to get
uncomfortable. And so I say weneed to create a space, a
container. So we're creatingthis chrysalis together, right?
Of, how do we feel supported inthis space, not necessarily safe
(14:25):
and comfortable, right? But howdo we feel supported? Because
there are going to be momentsnow, do I some people might be
like, well, we want to be safe,and there's that whole language
around safe spaces and all ofthat. What, what I hope that
people mean by safe spaces isthat people are not being
judged. They're not being hurtintentionally in those spaces.
(14:45):
However that safety and comfortand all of that, like, I want
people to feel supported, sothat they so that, I guess, they
feel safe in that way, but like,at the same time that they feel
supported to be safe, or howeverwe want to say it. Be
uncomfortable, because ifthey're not uncomfortable at
some point during the semester,they're not embodying the work
(15:07):
that we're trying to do to getto that place of transformation
at the end of the semester, ofwhatever transformation that
they are going through, right?Like, I don't know exactly, but
and so then we spend timetalking about what is it that we
need from other people to feelsupported, to be uncomfortable,
(15:28):
and what are we willing to give?Because when we use the word
partnership, partnership isabout two or more people giving
and receiving 100% to each otherand to to to the space right, to
the to the chrysalis and that.And so some people might call
these all those are just norms.That's just all that. And I I
(15:48):
always like, kind of go back andsay, well, a norm is usually
something that is given to you.It's a rule. It's a thing like
that. This is more about how dowe want to be together? And one
of my friends, peers,colleagues, who's a therapist,
always reminds me, like we'rehuman beings, not human doings.
(16:09):
And I see this in the corporatespaces all the time. They just
jump into the doing, right?Like, do, do, do, do, and they
forget that, like, well, you'redoing this with human beings and
human beings like we need topause and we need to understand,
how do we want to actually be inrelationship with each other,
and taking that pause to createthat container, whether it's
(16:31):
through a partnership agreementor other things, helps people
feel more supported when they'regoing through these
uncomfortable stages.
Indra Klavins (16:40):
Okay, so many things are in my brain right
now. The first thing is socialcontracts. You're creating a
social contract for the roomthat everyone in that room buys
into like it's it's not you'renot dictating a contract. You're
co creating and shaping thatcontract with everyone in that
room. The other thing that Iwant to acknowledge is that the
(17:03):
way that you're describing andthe way that I've experienced
you like walking in this world,it demonstrates the depth of
understanding of what yourskills are, what it requires to
create an environment that issupportive, that has The
integrity that you're lookingfor, for people to be able to go
(17:24):
slightly goo, glue, flirt with,flirt with goo, whatever like
it's you are so skilled in whatyou do, and you understand how
to support that you alsounderstand your limits. So I
just want to give that shoutout, and I want to call that
out, because not everyone, thereare a lot of people running
around, and I won't name names,like, there's there's some
people with very famous booksthat are run around with all
(17:46):
sorts of authority around thesetypes of things, but it's not
grounded in education or livedexperience, though, that you're
walking through this. So I justwant to just say that like,
thank you for doing what you'redoing. Thank you for normalizing
goo. Thank you for creating anenvironment that the goo can
flourish in. I don't even knowif that's the right word.
Stephanie Simpson (18:07):
I really, I really appreciate that, and
while I am working on accepting,you know, feedback and
compliments in that way, I'mgoing to just say thank you, and
I'm gonna add to it that I feellike I've been in spaces where
the person of power or influencewas not necessarily doing it in
(18:32):
a way that felt effective. AndI've I have felt the the what
that does to me, to others inthe system and all of that. And
in in my I did two differentgraduate programs. The first one
was an MFA in dance, and that,again, laid the foundation to a
lot of the work I'm doing rightnow. I was in a group of us in
(18:57):
the grad program. We're in a adance process with a guest
choreographer, and it was, itwas not a healthy one. It was
pretty toxic. And I and I mean,we did a great job, because we
ourselves came together andsaid, We're doing this for us
and not for this person and theego that was involved in all of
that. And so we ended upperforming really well, right?
(19:19):
Though, that process of gettingthere was not sustainable. And I
got really interested for mythesis project on that idea of,
like peak performance andsustainable performance. And I
went into it like thinking, howdo we do this for individuals?
And there isn't a lot ofresearch around, like dance in
(19:40):
like, peak performance andtheater and stuff, but there is
the whole field of sportspsychology. So I ended up
studying sports psychology andgoing, what are you doing with
all these athletes, and how dowe bring it into the dance
studio? And I would say, I mean,there's so many gifts that I got
in that, that exploration, thatresearch process, and one of
them being that I started.Learning more about leaders and
(20:02):
like the leader'sresponsibility, and that
leadership is not aboutexpertise all the time, right?
That Leadership isn't abouthaving all the answers, that
Leadership isn't about beingauthoritarian and dictating and
having power over leadership isabout understanding that group
(20:22):
that you have. Now, I will saythis, if you all have the
similar goals, like in sports,like, you know, win whatever
Indra Klavins (20:29):
big game, sports ball, win sports ball. Yes,
like,
Stephanie Simpson (20:33):
if that is the goal that everybody has, the
coach is actually, and I talkedto a bunch of coaches in various
various sports. I'm a big sportsperson. In brain, my brain is
fogging. It's okay.
Indra Klavins (20:50):
We can blame the cold. There's a big freeze going
over the US right now. We'reblaming everything on the cold,
Stephanie Simpson (20:55):
you know, whether it's basketball or
soccer or football or any ofthose. And the coaches were
saying, like most of my job isto understand my players and
help motivated, inspire them tobe able to do the thing that I
know they're good at, right, andto get the team to be cohesive
(21:16):
and trust each other and knowtheir roles and be there and all
of that. So are there, like,skills that they practice, of
course, and like the physicalthings and the routes and the
plays and the blah blah and allof that, though, there's also a
big mental, emotional part ofit. And I was like, Oh, that is
missing a lot in the experienceI had with this, this guest
(21:39):
choreographer. But then Istarted going, it's missing a
lot in a lot of areas of life.You know, when we look at the
corporate world, whether it's amanager and then a leader, or
division head, department head,Managing Director, all of those
like, how are you actuallyleading your team? And that is,
(22:02):
that is about being part of agroup, and that takes a
different skill set. And so Ilike, I appreciate that you're
that you recognize that I'm I'mreally trying to put these
things into practice, even in myown work, so that I'm not
continuing these toxic cyclesthat are so prevalent in many
(22:22):
areas of our life.
Indra Klavins (22:24):
It's very American to like, command the
spotlight and speak withauthority, even when you don't
have it. It's just like or thedepth that support that
authority. But you know, this isa lovely transition into so we
can take, I want to hit both ofthem, and you can choose the
sequence in which we hit themlike, how can leaders support
their team when they're in goo,right? Or they're they can sense
(22:48):
their team is in goo. How canthey recognize it's supported?
And so the companion questionis, and again, I don't know
what's the best sequence to talkabout them. When somebody feels
like, oh my gosh, I feel like apuddle, right? I feel myself
feeling like nothing fitsanymore, like I can't figure out
my head for my tail, and I can'tfigure out why. Like the body.
(23:09):
What is it? The Body Keeps theScore. The body can interpret
something faster than the braincan, right? Like, how? What?
What recommendations you havefor somebody who's in goo to
help them navigate through itand emerge and emerge better
than they walked into that goostage as Yeah.
Stephanie Simpson (23:25):
Okay. So the first answer I have actually
goes to both okay topics. Thefirst thing I would say is
acknowledge and validate it. Sowhen we are in like we just
said, the goo stage is going toactivate a stress reaction,
right? And so we are going tothink that we're in danger, that
we are that something's wrong,that we need to fix it, right?
(23:48):
And so when we go that we needto save ourselves and all of
that. So whether you are aleader and you're seeing that in
a team, whether you're seeing itin yourself, is to pause and
actually acknowledge andvalidate that you're in this and
that it's okay, right? Soearlier I said I specifically
use the word stress reaction.When we're trying to create a
(24:10):
healthy relationship withstress, one that, like, works
with and for us and not againstus, we need to respond, right?
So a reaction is just like,habitual. We're not even
thinking about it. It's like,literally, we just react right
response. In order to do that,we need to create a pause, and
we need to start to regulateourselves. Right when we're in
(24:33):
the stress reaction, we'redysregulated. So start to
regulate ourselves so that wecan respond in an intentional
way. So I needed my hands, so Ineeded to put my inside out
anxiety model. When we're in thestress reaction, we're in tunnel
vision, right? So there's thiswe can only see what's right in
(24:56):
front of us. Sometimes there's alight at the end of that tunnel.
But. Sometimes it feels likethat light just keeps getting
further and further away, right?And what we're doing usually is
the same thing we've done allthe time. So it's either running
away, fighting back, numbingout, freezing, fawning, which is
like overly performative,engaging, and making sure
everybody else is okay. And whatwe need to do is remind
(25:18):
ourselves, hey, I'm okay. Thisis something's happening. I
don't know what it is yet, butsomething is happening, and I
I'm going to be brave, and I'mgoing to figure out what it is,
but we're going to take it stepby step. That's if an
individual, a leader, is goingto acknowledge to the team. So
over the last few years, I wouldsay, you know, definitely the
(25:42):
last five years, there's been alot of reorgs. There's been a
lot of just one or two change,right, you know, and so naming
as a leader, like we are goingthrough a lot of change. It is
understandable that you areprobably exhausted, that you are
scared, that you are mourningthe loss of some of your
(26:05):
colleagues who are not hereanymore, right? So we haven't
even touched on the fact thatthe goo stage brings up a ton of
grief. And what that whole wecould do a whole different
podcast
Indra Klavins (26:15):
on that I got. We should. We really should, if
you're up for it, I would loveto
Stephanie Simpson (26:19):
Yes, to talk about that, because we don't
talk about grief in its totalityas much as I think we need to.
And I have noticed in sessionswith teams and individuals, when
I mentioned, hey, it sounds likeyou're grieving. I can then just
see so again, this isacknowledging and validating. I
can see their systems just kindof go, oh,
Indra Klavins (26:43):
not just me. Oh, my God. I'm not hallucinating
this. This is really happening.
Stephanie Simpson (26:47):
Like, you're right. I am right. And when we
think about I know we're getting
Indra Klavins (26:51):
a little Tanner. It's okay. We're giving him a
teaser for the next episode thatwe do. I'll bring
Stephanie Simpson (26:56):
it back to the caterpillar here. The
caterpillar literally lets go ofits entire state. It it lets go
of its identity. It is no longera caterpillar. And I use this in
a lot of my writing, of the factthat the caterpillar is a land
bound creature, unless it tries,like unless it takes a lot of
time to crawl up a tree and allof that right, like it is land
(27:18):
bound and it doesn't know what'son the other side of it. And so
I'd said bravery and courage tosay, like, I'm brave. I
encouraged to be able to movethrough this. I don't know
what's next. That's what happensto the caterpillar. It's like, I
don't know I'm supposed to beeating. I'm eating, I'm eating,
I'm building this thing. I don'tknow what's going to happen, but
I'm going to trust that, and I'mgoing to be brave and courageous
(27:40):
in doing this, and then it losesits an entire identity to then
become this butterfly that nowis a land and sky bound right, a
caterpillar. I mean, a butterflycan fly and see so many other
things and migrate. It migratesexactly right, like all of this
(28:01):
other stuff, to be able to bethat. So if we think about,
okay, I'm in my stress cycle.Here is this, if I can start to
regulate myself by acknowledgingand validating that what I'm in
makes sense, it'sunderstandable. It might be
challenging, and I trust thatI'm going to find my way
through. We start going, Oh, I'msafer. And then I think, I am
(28:27):
right. Maybe we go, Hey, I needto talk to a friend, or I need
to reach out to somebody. Now,we're getting support from other
people, right? We call thatsocial support. And then all of
a sudden, the blinders startopening up, and we can see more
things. And we go, oh, wait,maybe there's this thing over
here that I could like explore.Maybe there's this thing over
here I could explore, or maybe Icould choose to look at what I'm
(28:51):
in in a different way, right?Like, so then perspective, like,
you're wearing glasses today,right? Things look very
different when you take yourglasses off. I assume I also
wear glasses and so like, we canchoose to have them on and have
them off, and it's going tochange how we see things, which
is then going to change how wefeel about them, which is then
(29:11):
going to change how we respondto them, right? So that was kind
of an answer for both of thosethings.
Indra Klavins (29:18):
I love that, and I the, I guess the I guess, the
next question I have, findingthe right resources. I touched
on it a little bit where, youknow, I've, I've been on my own
versions of journeys too, andI've had both good teachers and
bad teachers. I think I'velearned just as much from both,
maybe more from the bad ones,because maybe it goes a volume
(29:38):
or because it hits, hitsdifferently. But what resources?
Of course, we're going to makesure all your information isn't
shown us. Feel free to shout outyour stuff. But what are the
good resources? Touchstones,things for people to just like,
I love having like, a goodTouchstone when I'm going
through something, so I can lookat it every once, and I'll be
like, okay, just keep going.Just keep going. Right?
Stephanie Simpson (29:59):
Yeah, yeah. So there's a couple of like
people that come to mind that Ialways kind of come back to. I'm
a big Dr Brene Brown fan, andher different books, she has so
many of them. The first book ofhers that I read, it wasn't the
first book, I don't think shewrote was the gifts of
(30:19):
imperfections. And I definitelycome back to that one at
different times. And Her mostrecent book that I'm working my
way through is called strongground. And one of the things I
really appreciate about her isthat she's very open about how
she's using these tools too, andwhen she's successful at them
(30:41):
and when she's not. And so forme, the other thing that came up
as you were talking was havingpeople really trust themselves
and their own intuition aroundthings, right? There's so much
information out there in theworld, and there's so many
people that are trying to sellthings to be helpful. And I
(31:03):
truly do believe, like, when youdo pause and you think to
yourself, What is my bodytelling me right now? Not my
brain, because your brain isgoing to go from that fear
place, right? So someone's goingto say on Instagram or LinkedIn
or whatever they're on, right?Like, here's how I did this, and
here's how I did this. And this,you could do this, and these
(31:23):
three steps, and blah, blah,blah, and they're selling your
brain is like, Okay, I needthat. I need that. I need that.
Okay, I'm gonna get Yeah, Igotta do this. But somewhere, if
you pause, your body will tellyou, does this feel right to me?
Does this feel and and if it'slike, Well, I do really like
what they're saying about thisgreat and then ask questions,
(31:44):
right? Be curious. Ask questionsall the time. Always ask
questions. I really appreciatewhat you said about like you
learned from both the good andthe bad, because I think, and
that maybe even more from thebad. I've had similar
experiences and and I think ait's a choice to learn from both
(32:04):
of them, and we actually canlearn so much from the
experiences that maybe were badand all that to make them
experiences that are actuallythen very useful for us. And I
remember years ago, I hired acoach, and I she was referred by
somebody else that I knew reallyclose. And so there was all this
(32:25):
stuff, but I was definitely inthis kind of fear sort of place,
and I could feel in my bodythat, like I didn't know whether
this was the right thing, but Igot wrapped up in all of it. I
hired her. I paid her up front.I think about how much I paid
her at this point, and I waslike, Oh, my God. Like, that was
a lot of money. Like, how didthat happen? And then the moment
(32:48):
we got into this coachingcontainer, and I was very open
about what I wanted and what Ineeded and what my goals were,
as soon as the money hit, and assoon as we got into
conversation, the like, it waslike, Well, I can't do that. Oh,
I don't know that you'll have todo that. And I was just like,
whoa. What just happened here,right? And so it took me, like,
(33:09):
I continued it in a way that Iwas like, Well, what do I want
to how do I want to take agencyback? Like, that's the other
thing is, like, when we're inour stress reaction, we are no
longer in the driver's seat.Fear is when we're in stress
when we're responding, fear isstill there, but we're in the
driver's seat, right? Like, it'sstill, like in the back seat or
in the trunk, but we are stilldriving the car. And so I was
(33:31):
like, Okay, how do I take backmy agency in here? Because I'm
not getting my money back. But Ilearned a lot about that. And
one of the other things Ilearned from that experience
was, listen, we could talk aboutcredentialing and all of that,
and some of it is great, andsome of it is like a lot of
other stuff, and really learnabout the person that you're
hiring, right, or really learnabout the person that you're
(33:52):
listening to on podcasts andthings like that, if that person
can't also be a human being andlike, share in a very authentic
way, not in a packaged socialmedia advertising sort of way,
but in a very real way about howthey are also a human trying to
(34:12):
figure this out too. That's whenmy spidey senses would be like,
maybe that's not somebody tocontinue to follow in all of
that. So Brene Brown comes upfor me. Honestly, I listen to
like podcasts, like armchairexpert, because what I love
about that is they bring ondifferent people from a lot on
Wednesdays, from a lot ofdifferent fields, and so that I
(34:34):
can listen to a lot of differentpeople's, like things, and when
I say different fields, like allover the place, and then,
usually they're, you know, onthe Wednesday shows, they're
usually promoting a book of somesort. Then I go, Okay, I'm
interested in, like, readingpart of that book or whatever.
So I always tell people just bereally curious, like, pull from
different things and then sitwith it and go, what works for
(34:55):
me, even with my clients, I willsay, like, I want to try. To
give you as many resources andtools as possible, so that when
you are navigating life, youhave a toolbox of so many
different things that you canpull on. Because one day one
tool might work. The next day itmight not. So which one do you
want to pull from? I love that.
Indra Klavins (35:18):
I You said so much that was money. That was
money. And the one, the onesmall thing that I can add to
what you've said, because you'vecovered so much territory, if
they're selling a one size fitsall solution, that's that, to
me, is red flag, red flag, redflag, red flag. Because, to your
point, everyone is different,and you yourself can be
(35:39):
different days and in differentscenarios and in different
contexts. So one size fits allfor something like this,
probably not the most skilled ornuanced or person with depth, a
lot of surface shine, right? SoI love it. Yeah, definitely, we
(36:00):
covered so much territory, andyou will come back. Yes, yes,
yes, love, love, love, love,anything else you want to leave
everyone with before we signoff. I guess,
Stephanie Simpson (36:12):
like, in thinking about like the
chrysalis, I guess the questionsare like invitations that I
would leave people with isthinking about like, what does
support look like for you whenyou're going through transition?
Because even in this last chunkof like, thinking about, like,
Help and Resources and stuff, Ialways try to, like, also
educate people on, like, thedifferent forms of help and
(36:34):
like, what help do you need whenand when we are scared and
overwhelmed and in that fearstate and all of that we we just
want to feel better, right? Andso we'll just kind of go to the
thing that is that easy comfort,maybe at the first thing. And so
being able to really reflectwhen you're not fully in that
(36:58):
state, what is it that actuallysupports me. Who supports me,
right? Like I, one thing Ireally do pride myself on is
like the my community. I likethe people in my community. I
love them dearly. I know theylove me dearly and and so when I
am going dipping into differentlike goo states and stuff, I
(37:20):
know that there are people I cancall, whether it's a voice note
or actual phone call or a text,who are going to show up for me,
right? And like they're going tobe there to help hold just the
same way I am for them, right?Like that is our partnership.
That, to me, is partnership,right? So really thinking about
what does support look like forme, and who are those people
(37:42):
that can help me? What are thosethings that help me? Like, if
it's, you know, physicalactivity, what are the things
that help you to be, to feelgood? Like I run and dance, have
dance parties in my home, like,whatever that may be, so that
you are building your chrysalis,right? Like, so that it is there
for you when you need it. So Ithink that would be my like last
(38:04):
invitation for people.
Indra Klavins (38:07):
I We have barely scratched the surface.
Stephanie, I am delighted. I amso glad that we know each other.
I'm so glad that we're we aresome part of each other's
chrysalises. Yes, and I lookforward to you joining us again
for at least one more episode. Ifeel like there might be more. I
(38:27):
would begin talk a little bitmore about all the things I am
positive folks got something outof this episode, whether it's
for themselves or for somebodythat they know. Hopefully they
feel seen in this episode. And Ihope you'll all join us next
time for another topic for themessy middle. Bye everyone.
(38:50):
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle. Word of
mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
(39:11):
at the messy middle matters.com,or in the show notes. Thank you
for joining us on this journey.This work is better when we do
it together. Until next timeyou.
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