February 25, 2026 • 27 mins
In a world full of noise, expectations, and competing identities, how do we hear our inner voice? In this episode of The Messy Middle Matters, Indra sits down with Jameelah Calhoun, founder of Unpopular Decisions, to explore the courage it takes to choose alignment over conformity. Together, they unpack the difference between fear and intuition, regret versus consequences, and why comfort isn’t always safety. They also discuss the realities of responsibility, intersectionality, and privilege — and why listening to your inner voice doesn’t have to mean reckless abandon. Sometimes it’s about small acts of reclamation, play, and returning home to yourself.
Takeaways
- Your intuition is often immediate: yes, no, hell yes, hell no. Fear rationalizes. It builds a courtroom case.
- What feels comfortable may slowly misalign you.
- Growth often begins when comfort stops feeling safe.
- Play reconnects us to identities we shed to “fit in.”
- Not everyone has the same latitude to take bold risks.
- You don’t know the identities, risks, or responsibilities someone carries.
- Choosing alignment publicly can give others permission to do the same.
- Sometimes what looks like instability is actually a return to self.
Follow Jameelah:
- Jameelah on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/jameelah-calhoun/
- Unpopular Decisions Website: https://www.unpopulardecisions.com/
- Jameelah on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/unpopulardecisionspod/
More from Indra and The Messy Middle Matters
- Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
- Indra’s Blog: https://peopleprocessthings.substack.com
- The Messy Middle Matters on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themessymiddlematters/
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: https://messymiddlematters.com/feedback
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch https://messymiddlemerch.com
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Episode Transcript
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Unknown (00:05):
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to the messy
middle matters, where my friendsand I explore all the twists,
turns and challenges that arisein the messy middle of work.
Hey, everyone, welcome to themessy middle matters. I'm
talking to Jamila today, andwhat we're going to be talking
about is the little voice thatwe sometimes hear in the
(00:27):
distance, so so far away, andhow important it is to make time
and space and how to find thatlittle voice, because it's such
a, it is such a, such a noisyworld that we're finding
ourselves in, and this is somuch more important than I think
it was in other years that I'vebeen alive, at least, right?
Welcome. Thank you so much,Indra. I'm thrilled to be on the
(00:48):
messy middle matters. Just thistopic means so much to me, and
so I just feeling like I'msitting with a kindred spirit.
So excited to be here. Yeah? Sowhy don't you tell everybody a
little bit about yourself, yeah,tell us about you, your messy
middle and what's going on now?Oh, man, lots of messiness, lots
of evolution, which is all good,but I'm the founder of unpopular
(01:11):
decisions. It's a media andcommunity platform centered on
the moments where we choosecourage over conformity, and so
it's all about the types of big,hairy life decisions where we
have to go against the grain andkind of fight through the doubt.
So I think this is a wonderfulmoment for me. I'm stepping into
(01:34):
my entrepreneurial journey afterhaving been on Wall Street and
in tech for, you know, almosttwo decades. So yeah, just
really learning how to show upin the world in a whole
different way. Yeah, and I lovethe fact that we're having this
conversation now, because whenyou're faced with those big,
unpopular decisions, it's thatlittle voice you've got. She's
(01:58):
the one, he's the one, they'rethe one that is the one that's
pointing you toward your NorthStar, and it's your own North
Star, not someone else's Right,right? And that's the hard part.
Is we're kind of taught so muchto prioritize the voices or the
needs of others, ourresponsibility to our teams, to
(02:19):
family, to community, which areall incredibly important. And
this is not about completelybecoming a
misanthrope or an isolationist,but it is about the fact that
even in that space, it's stillour responsibility to build a
life that we love and that wecan really thrive within, and
(02:41):
that's actually the best waythat you can serve your family
and your community, is reallybeing your true self and taking
care of yourself by a lot havingthat alignment. Yeah, and so
let's talk about the noise.Let's talk about the noise and
all the identities and all thecostumes they put on to fit into
all the environments. There isthe, you know, there's the
(03:02):
corporate self that we all, Iwas thinking of like I'm putting
on this outfit for for being my,my corporate self. Or there is
the, you know, sibling self, orthe child self, or the I'm
commuting in New York self, orI'm trying to under I'm trying
to navigate this really, really,really, really loud world that
we're finding ourselves in whichit's loud, physically, mentally,
(03:23):
emotionally, spiritually, everylevel, it's just so loud. And in
these really loud environments,it's so hard, it is so hard to
hear the little voice throughall the noise. Yeah, well, I do
love the commuting through NewYork identity like I just put
on, like, the best music thatgives me so much confidence, and
(03:44):
you're walking down the street.So that one's a
really fun one. Yeah, it's ownplaylist 100%
but you know, more broadly, thisidea of identities is so
important to be able to listento your inner voice, because
your inner voice is really thethrough line that kind of ties
(04:05):
all of these choices that you'vemade, that all these identities
that you hold together, and it'sactually been resonating with me
so much. I recently was writingabout my own experience of
helping my mom clear out hergarage. She's moving to Florida,
as moms do, and we found oldphotos of myself from when I was
(04:29):
seven, eight years old. And itjust struck me that I had
recently done a photo shoot formy new business. And like you
could put some of these posesside by side with each other.
Like, so fun. It was so funny tosee how my true self has just
always been there, and it'sshown up in these different
(04:51):
iterations. Now I have moremakeup and I have, like, maybe
more loud clothing, but youknow, it's still the same
person.
And and so I think those momentswhere your inner voice is trying
to speak up and is tuning intoyou know, who it's trying to
guide you to become. Oftentimes,it's trying to guide you to
(05:14):
really return,
return to yourself, reclaim anidentity that maybe through
responsibility and adulthood,and, you know, corporate,
whatever it is that you kind ofshed in order to fit in, in
order to put on the mask thatyou had to so I think it's so
important to tune in, becausethat's really trying to guide
(05:37):
you back home to yourself. Okay,so many things are firing in my
brain right now, the two thingsthat I'm holding at the same
time, or two loudest things I'mholding at the same time right
now. One is, how do you makespace for that inner voice? But
the other part is, for me, thething that is has been the most
(05:58):
useful, at least in the recentyears, has been play, figuring
out how to visit play, andspecifically my gateway back
into trying to figure out who Iam or who I've always been
exactly, is like, I've I've beenfriendship braceleting, I've
been friendship pinning. I'vebeen like, all them these, like,
(06:19):
I think that's like, what it waslike doing in summer camp,
right? Like, because, like, thatwas, like, you were just
creating crafts, right? Like,I'm like, hardcore arts and
crafts in these random, like,tiny little moments, like, and
for me, when you were talkingabout, when you're talking
about, like, seeing your youngerself, your seven, eight year old
self, right? How do you findthat girl again, right? How do
you find that, that that youngspirit, again, the one that's
(06:42):
always been there, that quietvoice that's on the inside, that
is your most authentic self, oh,my god, exactly that feeling of
going back and playing like youwould when you were a child. You
were unfiltered, you were loud,you were expressive. It's such
an important part of thisjourney, of course, is the
(07:02):
wonderful book, The Artist'sWay, which also talks a lot
about cultivating play as a wayto reconnect to your creativity
and and to your inner spirit.But it's so funny. This also
reminds me several years ago,when I was also at another
career, inflection, formatting,I went to one. Oh,
(07:24):
so I went to an adult summercamp. It's literally like you
were talking about summer camp,and we go to the Berkshires and,
like, Connecticut, Massachusettsor Massachusetts. And literally,
it's zip lining. It's like thethe big, like, inflatable things
on the lake, all of those
(07:45):
games, yeah, so talk about,like, literally finding ways to
put yourself back into thosesituations. And, yeah, it was
just such a awakening, such a
revisiting, yeah, that wasreally powerful. And just gave
me a lot of permission to let itbe messy. Yeah. So what are
(08:08):
other ways like that you findcreate the space to let the
voice come through, like is, doyou have a practice that you do
that? Does she show up in andI'm assuming she's a she, but
you can tell me if it's like,you know something else, but
does the voice come through,like, while you're on the
subway? Like, how do you how doyou tap into that little voice?
(08:30):
Well, of course, it's it'sdifferent for everybody, but for
me, I find that the moments oflightning, bulbs going off and
inspiration often happen whenI'm out interacting with the
world. When I'm readingsomething, I see a quote, I hear
someone mention something in aconversation I'm watching, even
television, they're this momentswhere certain words kind of
(08:53):
strike you, and the meaning youmake of those words, to me is
really your inner voice tryingto come out, and it's using the
language of the world around youto, like, really communicate
something important in thatmoment. And so, yeah, I just
have all kinds of examples ofthese kind of situations. And
(09:17):
more recently for me, I waswatching Abbott Elementary,
great show. If people haven'twatched it yet, you should, and
it's just great comedic relief.Good 30 minute sitcom. Everyone
needs that. It's super hard.It's heartwarming. We love it.
But Mr. Johnson, he's often thecomedic character, but really an
(09:40):
unexpected philosopher. He issomeone who really lives his
life boldly. And Janine, who'sthe main character, is very
earnest. She cares a lot. She'svery enthusiastic, but she's She
worries that she's not doing theright thing. So she asked him,
like, how do you live so free?Yeah. And he said, for me, I've
always.
Feared regret more thanconsequences. And that phrase
(10:06):
stopped me in my tracks. Irealized, like, have I been
taught to fear the wrong thing?Like, I've been fearing
consequences. You know, at themoment I was I was trying to
decide what my path ahead wouldbe career wise. And do I, do I
continue down the path that Iwas on? Or, you know, do I give
(10:26):
myself the opportunity toexplore something different,
take a break, you know, reallyget away from the burnout path
that I felt like I was walkingdown, and all I was thinking
about was the consequences. Whatif I don't find another job? You
know, how can I swing thisfinancially? What will people
think? But when I reframed it toinstead of, can I deal with the
(10:50):
consequences of leaving, can Iactually deal with the regret of
staying and not giving myselfthe opportunity to explore
something different. Itcompletely changed the calculus
for me.
Okay, so what's coming to mindis, like the visual image is the
(11:11):
movie Inside Out, and all thedifferent little voices in your
head, there's the voice that'syour true self, right? That is
your north star, that is yourcompass, that is your guiding
force to getting to be theperson that that you ultimately
were put on this earth, to beright. Like, maybe a little too,
but I'm just gonna go with it.I'm gonna lean into this. And
(11:33):
then there's the like, Are yousure? Like, there's the you
should then you should do this,and you should do that, and you
should do that, and you should Iactually have a sticker. I have
to give it to you before youleave. Stop shooting me. Okay,
frustrated where people weretelling me what I should be
doing. I like you. Stop shootingme. I've got enough voices. I
don't
(11:54):
but it's, it's finding this.It's understanding to it's
understanding which voice tolisten to, right? And what you
talked about was the listeningto the not regrets. I'd rather,
I'd rather try. Yeah, rathertry. Yeah. Well, it's still hard
to parse out all those differentvoices, because, you know, we
(12:16):
get really good at, like,convincing ourselves not to do.
Our brains are really powerful.
There's, there's 1000s and 1000sand 1000s of years of iteration
that goes into our brain thatthat's protecting, yeah, from
the from the tiger, from thebear, from the whatever. Yeah,
(12:38):
right, right. Well, it remindsme, actually, another moment of
inspiration a leadership coach.She's of mindful MBA Shannon
Demko. She recently told me thatthe difference between kind of
the fear voice versus the innervoice is that the inner voice is
quick. Yes, No, hell yes. Hellno.
(13:00):
Right, left, you know, right,wrong. Those are very quick
answers. But the fear voice doesa lot of overthinking,
rationalizing, long soliloquiesthat kind of well, have you
thought about this? Are you surelike this could go wrong in this
way, in this way, in this way,and you find that train of
(13:20):
thought going on and on and onthat's usually your brain going
into overtime to, like, protectyou to your point, and yeah,
really tuning into the innervoice. I think there was also an
article like years ago. I thinkhis blog, I forget what it's
called, but he said, listen tothe hell yes, and yeah, we could
(13:41):
maybe link that in the shownotes as well. But he said,
listen to the hell yes, like,and so many things were like,
maybe,
yeah, I was talking to a friendof mine, actually, just the
other day. And it's alsolistening to what your body
says,
right? Because I think thatimmediate, yes, no, that doesn't
(14:02):
come from the brain. That comesfrom the body is like, bought
into, like, oh yeah, we're doingthat. And like, in your brains,
like, wait all the we're doingthat. Okay, cool, right? Because
there's, it comes from the bodytells us what is I get to read
the book, but I it sits on myshelf as inspiration. The Body
Keeps the Score, yes, right?Because there's so much that we
just it doesn't all happen inour brains. It doesn't all
(14:23):
happen in our brains, right?Sometimes those moments, those
pivotal moments, of listening toyour inner voice, I don't think
you know that you're doing ituntil you're looking in the rear
view mirror. So true, right?Because if I think about the
things that I've done, like, Itake all sorts of weird steps
(14:44):
off of a cliff, right? Like,just leaps of faith. I'm like,
sometimes are huge. Like, thefirst big one that I remember is
when I decided I was going to bemassage therapist, which nobody
understood that I why it. Wasdoing it. I did it, loved it,
left it for good reasons. Butit, I don't regret it, but it's
like, like, where do.
That come from, right? But Idon't regret that decision one
bit. But these I didn'trecognize it as being as pivotal
(15:07):
to who I am today until I waslooking back at it in my rear
view mirror, right? It was oneof my like, what are you doing?
Like, what? Like, what, what,Indra, what are you doing? What
are you doing right now? Yeah,well, that reminds me, like I
had a reflection the other dayof just how much easier it was
to listen to our intuition whenearlier in our careers and like,
(15:30):
earlier in life. But similarly,I have plenty of those types of
stories too, where it was justlike a flash idea, and like, a
week later I was doing it. Isigned up for the course I done?
And I'm like, Man, did I justused to move fast, like and to
your point, in retrospect, I'mlike, I'm so glad I did that. I
(15:52):
was really pulled by thatthrough line of my inner voice
and my inner identity and butI'm finding as I'm getting
older, more responsibilities,more identities, I'm attached to
now, you know, I'm attached tothe idea of being on this
(16:13):
corporate ladder. I'm attachedto the neighborhood I live in,
and maybe what that says aboutme, right? So, so now that
moment of inspiration getsimmediately followed by all the
reasons why it's going to be toohard to follow, or it's, you
know, too disruptive toeverything else I've got going
(16:36):
on. Yeah, so I just feel likeit's so important to
kind of really go back to, likewe talked about, go back to
those times when you were justreally unfiltered, listening to
your intuition and say, Okay,what was it about that moment
that gave me the ability to,like, move so quickly and move
(16:56):
so confidently in that newdirection, and kind of maybe
figure out if there's pieces ofwhat's built up around you since
then that you can shed a phrasethat's coming to mind is shut up
a lot this week. Is how comfortand safety are, not couples,
right? What feels safe sometimesnot safe. That like the when
(17:17):
people ask me, What do you meanby that? I usually talk about
the frog being boiled. Example,that frog is having a great time
in a Hot Dub until it's too lateand it's cooked, right? So, like
sick, comfort was not safe forthe frog. And I think that we
lean into because life gets socomplex, and we collect all
these experiences that informwho we are really, oh, let me go
(17:40):
for the safe thing. Let me gofor the comfortable thing. Let
me like and, or what's perceivedas safe, right? And, and we're
just trying to survive. And so,like, if somebody hasn't
listened to their voice, I don'twant them to think that they're
bad. There's no, there's nomoral judgment here. Totally,
totally fine, because there'sdifferent seasons of your life
where you need different things.But just just, I think that as
(18:03):
you get older, the comfortstarts to not be safe anymore.
Just kind of why we do a loopagain. We're like, kind of
looping back to, like, yeah,when did I feel inflow as a
human, not in like a craft ofthe things that I do, or, you
know, my hobbies, or whatever itmight be, but in flow with who I
(18:25):
am, in alignment with who I am,and that's where you know that
second chapter, or whateverchapter, but that new chapter
can start for you again. Well, Ilove this rebrand of the midlife
crisis.
It's not a place we can justswitch that shit. Yeah, keep
moving. Yeah, no, no, but inexactly the sense of what you're
saying, like, there comes apoint where you have kind of
(18:49):
built up a bunch of aspects ofyour life to the point where
hopefully you did get a littlebit more comfortable. And there
is that moment where the comfortstarts to feel misaligned. And
to me, I'm like, what if that isactually, quote, unquote, what
people call the midlife crisis.It's actually the moment where
you say, I've gotten toocomfortable,
(19:11):
and I need to rediscover, youknow, myself, Rediscover
meaning, reconnect a purpose. Sodon't everyone go buy a red
sports car. That's not what I'mtalking about, but that could be
authentic choice. Maybe thedifference between, like, the
midlife crisis of the 80s and90s, yeah, is it was a blatant
(19:32):
disregard for what anyone elselike, how my actions impacted
anyone else when I was in thatred sports car, and I don't care
about my family and how it'sgoing to impact our finances.
Right now, it's a crisis. Yes, Ithink that there is a if there's
an acknowledgement and a pivot,and I'll dare to say rebirth, I
can't think of a betterreigniting right reunification,
(19:55):
right itself. That's verydifferent. And I think they,
they time themselves.
The same place, and I happenedto be talking to somebody about
this, like a similar topic. AndI said, Yeah, I guess people
used to call it a midlifecrisis, but I don't feel like
that phrase fits anymore, right.And the person said to me,
they're like, oh. And it was, itwas a needs to be clear. It was
(20:15):
a cis white man who was roughlymy age. And he said to me, he
goes, Oh, no, no. Only men havemidlife crises. Women figure
stuff out. And I was like, I'mlike, okay, cool, cool. I like
mad, rebrand. I can't disagree.And I'm like that, that I mean,
I don't know if I would havesaid that out loud, but I will
(20:39):
take that exactly. We willendorse. But because I think
it's different, I think it'sdifferent. And I think that, I
think that the other thing isthat the expectations of the
societal expectations aredifferent too. But if you think
about what, like the boomergeneration, the expectations, I
still remember my mother tellingme, like, once you turn 30, you
can't have long hair. Like,there as one example. The reason
(21:02):
I'm sharing that one is theGolden Girls. There was that
whole meme, like, I don't knowhow 510, years ago, where people
were putting on differenthairstyles on the Golden Girls,
there were 50, yeah, they were50 on the show, right? And that
is not what 50 looks like today,right? And people figure out the
hairstyles, right? Just changingourselves, yeah, stuck into,
like, I need to have a shorthair, because that's what we do
(21:24):
at that age, right? Well, it's,it's also really important. What
you're kind of pointing to isjust the fact that, depending on
your intersecting identity, youryour kind of permission
structure, in a way to maybe,you know, access your inner
(21:46):
voice and just do kind of thingsthat are in alignment. It can be
curtailed because you'reconstantly filtering what that
inner voice is saying through,like I said earlier, the
responsibility that you feel toyour family, responsibility you
feel to your community,responsibility you feel to
represent, yes, your others whoshare your identities in a way
(22:09):
that you know you would feelproud of like I definitely have
felt this pressure as a blackwoman in corporate America.
There is, you know, kind of ameasure of this is maybe what I
want to do, but I'm alsofiltering it through the lens
of, okay, well, how will thisrepresent, how will this
ultimately showcase what blackwomen are capable of, and being
(22:32):
that beacon maybe for others whowant to join my industry
eventually. So when you putthose additional kind of lenses
and filters on it can create adistance between you and your
inner voice. And so I've beenactually really disheartened,
but I shouldn't have beensurprised, but positively
(22:53):
surprised by how many peoplethat I've met through building
unpopular decisions, through,you know, working and meeting
the community that you've builtaround messy middle as well. How
many people are women, eldestdaughters, members of a diaspora
like we can go on about theidentity LGBT, like all the
(23:15):
different identities, because Ido think leaving space for the
imperfect journey is especiallyhard in those spaces, because
we're always taught to be twiceas good
and and so this is why theseconversations are so important.
I'm glad that you brought inintersectionality, because I
think that we need to, all of usneed to be aware of it for
(23:37):
different reasons, for differentreasons, because one person's
journey can't be someone else'sfor so many reasons, in general,
but this specifically, becausenot all of us have permission,
I'll say, or the latitude. Maybethat's a more gracious term. Not
all of us have the latitude towalk in this world with reckless
(23:58):
abandon, right? And that is, andwhen you're in that scenario,
maybe honoring your inner voicecan be happen in small ways. It
can happen privately. It canhappen in it doesn't have to be
big bold, sports car, Brodie,you know, rash kind of things,
(24:18):
or, you know, like, I'm quittingmy job, like when I left my job
the most recent time I said tome, I did. I'm like, I did. Just
save myself. And number one,number two, I recognize my
privilege. I'm like, noteveryone has this privilege.
This is such a privilege. And sobe gracious with yourself when
you when you do or don't, listento your inner voice, and be
(24:39):
gracious with others when theydo or don't. You can't, you
can't, should someone else andhow they should do it. You have
no you have no idea, you have noidea what they're living with,
especially you have no idea whatidentities they have, because
it's not always visible, right,right? So thank you for bringing
that in. Yeah, absolutely. Theother thing I would add is also
(24:59):
on top.
Being gracious with others, alsorecognizing that you listening
to your own inner voice andshowing that example is also a
part of representation. And I,you know, was feeling a lot of
guilt, you know, leaving my lastopportunity as well. I loved my
team. They're phenomenal people.And I was just like, actually
(25:22):
one of the best things I coulddo is showcase to them what it
looks like when somebody ischoosing to live in alignment,
choosing to
be audacious, choosing to listento their inner voice. And that's
actually the gift and therepresentation that I can give
to my team and to others that Icared about a lot. That's really
(25:43):
big, that's really big. Thatfeels like a really good pausing
point conversation, anythingelse that you want to add, or
anything you want to share, howpeople can find you, or any of
those things, yeah, well, a lotof what I shared here is really
the kind of impetus and andpurpose behind what I'm building
(26:03):
now with unpopular decision. Soif people do want to follow and
hear kind of more of theseconversation people not when,
yes, when
we're interviewing everydaypeople like, like you me, Indra,
you know like about theirexperiences of choosing
differently. And so they canfind us on Instagram, unpopular
(26:24):
decisions, pod. They can find uson substack at unpopular
decisions. And of course, youcan find me on LinkedIn. Jamila
Calhoun, okay, and I will makesure that all the notes are in
the show notes, so all the linksto all the things, yes. Thank
you so much for joining me. Iknow that people will feel seen,
(26:44):
heard, will have learnedsomething from this, so I hope
you join us next time foranother topic from the messy
middle. Bye everyone.
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle word of
mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
(27:06):
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
at the messy middle matters.comor in the show notes, thank you
for joining us on this journey.This work is better when we do
it together, until next timeyou.
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to the messy
middle matters, where my friendsand I explore all the twists,
turns and challenges that arisein the messy middle of work.
Hey, everyone, welcome to themessy middle matters. I'm
talking to Jamila today, andwhat we're going to be talking
about is the little voice thatwe sometimes hear in the
(00:27):
distance, so so far away, andhow important it is to make time
and space and how to find thatlittle voice, because it's such
a, it is such a, such a noisyworld that we're finding
ourselves in, and this is somuch more important than I think
it was in other years that I'vebeen alive, at least, right?
Welcome. Thank you so much,Indra. I'm thrilled to be on the
(00:48):
messy middle matters. Just thistopic means so much to me, and
so I just feeling like I'msitting with a kindred spirit.
So excited to be here. Yeah? Sowhy don't you tell everybody a
little bit about yourself, yeah,tell us about you, your messy
middle and what's going on now?Oh, man, lots of messiness, lots
of evolution, which is all good,but I'm the founder of unpopular
(01:11):
decisions. It's a media andcommunity platform centered on
the moments where we choosecourage over conformity, and so
it's all about the types of big,hairy life decisions where we
have to go against the grain andkind of fight through the doubt.
So I think this is a wonderfulmoment for me. I'm stepping into
(01:34):
my entrepreneurial journey afterhaving been on Wall Street and
in tech for, you know, almosttwo decades. So yeah, just
really learning how to show upin the world in a whole
different way. Yeah, and I lovethe fact that we're having this
conversation now, because whenyou're faced with those big,
unpopular decisions, it's thatlittle voice you've got. She's
(01:58):
the one, he's the one, they'rethe one that is the one that's
pointing you toward your NorthStar, and it's your own North
Star, not someone else's Right,right? And that's the hard part.
Is we're kind of taught so muchto prioritize the voices or the
needs of others, ourresponsibility to our teams, to
(02:19):
family, to community, which areall incredibly important. And
this is not about completelybecoming a
misanthrope or an isolationist,but it is about the fact that
even in that space, it's stillour responsibility to build a
life that we love and that wecan really thrive within, and
(02:41):
that's actually the best waythat you can serve your family
and your community, is reallybeing your true self and taking
care of yourself by a lot havingthat alignment. Yeah, and so
let's talk about the noise.Let's talk about the noise and
all the identities and all thecostumes they put on to fit into
all the environments. There isthe, you know, there's the
(03:02):
corporate self that we all, Iwas thinking of like I'm putting
on this outfit for for being my,my corporate self. Or there is
the, you know, sibling self, orthe child self, or the I'm
commuting in New York self, orI'm trying to under I'm trying
to navigate this really, really,really, really loud world that
we're finding ourselves in whichit's loud, physically, mentally,
(03:23):
emotionally, spiritually, everylevel, it's just so loud. And in
these really loud environments,it's so hard, it is so hard to
hear the little voice throughall the noise. Yeah, well, I do
love the commuting through NewYork identity like I just put
on, like, the best music thatgives me so much confidence, and
(03:44):
you're walking down the street.So that one's a
really fun one. Yeah, it's ownplaylist 100%
but you know, more broadly, thisidea of identities is so
important to be able to listento your inner voice, because
your inner voice is really thethrough line that kind of ties
(04:05):
all of these choices that you'vemade, that all these identities
that you hold together, and it'sactually been resonating with me
so much. I recently was writingabout my own experience of
helping my mom clear out hergarage. She's moving to Florida,
as moms do, and we found oldphotos of myself from when I was
(04:29):
seven, eight years old. And itjust struck me that I had
recently done a photo shoot formy new business. And like you
could put some of these posesside by side with each other.
Like, so fun. It was so funny tosee how my true self has just
always been there, and it'sshown up in these different
(04:51):
iterations. Now I have moremakeup and I have, like, maybe
more loud clothing, but youknow, it's still the same
person.
And and so I think those momentswhere your inner voice is trying
to speak up and is tuning intoyou know, who it's trying to
guide you to become. Oftentimes,it's trying to guide you to
(05:14):
really return,
return to yourself, reclaim anidentity that maybe through
responsibility and adulthood,and, you know, corporate,
whatever it is that you kind ofshed in order to fit in, in
order to put on the mask thatyou had to so I think it's so
important to tune in, becausethat's really trying to guide
(05:37):
you back home to yourself. Okay,so many things are firing in my
brain right now, the two thingsthat I'm holding at the same
time, or two loudest things I'mholding at the same time right
now. One is, how do you makespace for that inner voice? But
the other part is, for me, thething that is has been the most
(05:58):
useful, at least in the recentyears, has been play, figuring
out how to visit play, andspecifically my gateway back
into trying to figure out who Iam or who I've always been
exactly, is like, I've I've beenfriendship braceleting, I've
been friendship pinning. I'vebeen like, all them these, like,
(06:19):
I think that's like, what it waslike doing in summer camp,
right? Like, because, like, thatwas, like, you were just
creating crafts, right? Like,I'm like, hardcore arts and
crafts in these random, like,tiny little moments, like, and
for me, when you were talkingabout, when you're talking
about, like, seeing your youngerself, your seven, eight year old
self, right? How do you findthat girl again, right? How do
you find that, that that youngspirit, again, the one that's
(06:42):
always been there, that quietvoice that's on the inside, that
is your most authentic self, oh,my god, exactly that feeling of
going back and playing like youwould when you were a child. You
were unfiltered, you were loud,you were expressive. It's such
an important part of thisjourney, of course, is the
(07:02):
wonderful book, The Artist'sWay, which also talks a lot
about cultivating play as a wayto reconnect to your creativity
and and to your inner spirit.But it's so funny. This also
reminds me several years ago,when I was also at another
career, inflection, formatting,I went to one. Oh,
(07:24):
so I went to an adult summercamp. It's literally like you
were talking about summer camp,and we go to the Berkshires and,
like, Connecticut, Massachusettsor Massachusetts. And literally,
it's zip lining. It's like thethe big, like, inflatable things
on the lake, all of those
(07:45):
games, yeah, so talk about,like, literally finding ways to
put yourself back into thosesituations. And, yeah, it was
just such a awakening, such a
revisiting, yeah, that wasreally powerful. And just gave
me a lot of permission to let itbe messy. Yeah. So what are
(08:08):
other ways like that you findcreate the space to let the
voice come through, like is, doyou have a practice that you do
that? Does she show up in andI'm assuming she's a she, but
you can tell me if it's like,you know something else, but
does the voice come through,like, while you're on the
subway? Like, how do you how doyou tap into that little voice?
(08:30):
Well, of course, it's it'sdifferent for everybody, but for
me, I find that the moments oflightning, bulbs going off and
inspiration often happen whenI'm out interacting with the
world. When I'm readingsomething, I see a quote, I hear
someone mention something in aconversation I'm watching, even
television, they're this momentswhere certain words kind of
(08:53):
strike you, and the meaning youmake of those words, to me is
really your inner voice tryingto come out, and it's using the
language of the world around youto, like, really communicate
something important in thatmoment. And so, yeah, I just
have all kinds of examples ofthese kind of situations. And
(09:17):
more recently for me, I waswatching Abbott Elementary,
great show. If people haven'twatched it yet, you should, and
it's just great comedic relief.Good 30 minute sitcom. Everyone
needs that. It's super hard.It's heartwarming. We love it.
But Mr. Johnson, he's often thecomedic character, but really an
(09:40):
unexpected philosopher. He issomeone who really lives his
life boldly. And Janine, who'sthe main character, is very
earnest. She cares a lot. She'svery enthusiastic, but she's She
worries that she's not doing theright thing. So she asked him,
like, how do you live so free?Yeah. And he said, for me, I've
always.
Feared regret more thanconsequences. And that phrase
(10:06):
stopped me in my tracks. Irealized, like, have I been
taught to fear the wrong thing?Like, I've been fearing
consequences. You know, at themoment I was I was trying to
decide what my path ahead wouldbe career wise. And do I, do I
continue down the path that Iwas on? Or, you know, do I give
(10:26):
myself the opportunity toexplore something different,
take a break, you know, reallyget away from the burnout path
that I felt like I was walkingdown, and all I was thinking
about was the consequences. Whatif I don't find another job? You
know, how can I swing thisfinancially? What will people
think? But when I reframed it toinstead of, can I deal with the
(10:50):
consequences of leaving, can Iactually deal with the regret of
staying and not giving myselfthe opportunity to explore
something different. Itcompletely changed the calculus
for me.
Okay, so what's coming to mindis, like the visual image is the
(11:11):
movie Inside Out, and all thedifferent little voices in your
head, there's the voice that'syour true self, right? That is
your north star, that is yourcompass, that is your guiding
force to getting to be theperson that that you ultimately
were put on this earth, to beright. Like, maybe a little too,
but I'm just gonna go with it.I'm gonna lean into this. And
(11:33):
then there's the like, Are yousure? Like, there's the you
should then you should do this,and you should do that, and you
should do that, and you should Iactually have a sticker. I have
to give it to you before youleave. Stop shooting me. Okay,
frustrated where people weretelling me what I should be
doing. I like you. Stop shootingme. I've got enough voices. I
don't
(11:54):
but it's, it's finding this.It's understanding to it's
understanding which voice tolisten to, right? And what you
talked about was the listeningto the not regrets. I'd rather,
I'd rather try. Yeah, rathertry. Yeah. Well, it's still hard
to parse out all those differentvoices, because, you know, we
(12:16):
get really good at, like,convincing ourselves not to do.
Our brains are really powerful.
There's, there's 1000s and 1000sand 1000s of years of iteration
that goes into our brain thatthat's protecting, yeah, from
the from the tiger, from thebear, from the whatever. Yeah,
(12:38):
right, right. Well, it remindsme, actually, another moment of
inspiration a leadership coach.She's of mindful MBA Shannon
Demko. She recently told me thatthe difference between kind of
the fear voice versus the innervoice is that the inner voice is
quick. Yes, No, hell yes. Hellno.
(13:00):
Right, left, you know, right,wrong. Those are very quick
answers. But the fear voice doesa lot of overthinking,
rationalizing, long soliloquiesthat kind of well, have you
thought about this? Are you surelike this could go wrong in this
way, in this way, in this way,and you find that train of
(13:20):
thought going on and on and onthat's usually your brain going
into overtime to, like, protectyou to your point, and yeah,
really tuning into the innervoice. I think there was also an
article like years ago. I thinkhis blog, I forget what it's
called, but he said, listen tothe hell yes, and yeah, we could
(13:41):
maybe link that in the shownotes as well. But he said,
listen to the hell yes, like,and so many things were like,
maybe,
yeah, I was talking to a friendof mine, actually, just the
other day. And it's alsolistening to what your body
says,
right? Because I think thatimmediate, yes, no, that doesn't
(14:02):
come from the brain. That comesfrom the body is like, bought
into, like, oh yeah, we're doingthat. And like, in your brains,
like, wait all the we're doingthat. Okay, cool, right? Because
there's, it comes from the bodytells us what is I get to read
the book, but I it sits on myshelf as inspiration. The Body
Keeps the Score, yes, right?Because there's so much that we
just it doesn't all happen inour brains. It doesn't all
(14:23):
happen in our brains, right?Sometimes those moments, those
pivotal moments, of listening toyour inner voice, I don't think
you know that you're doing ituntil you're looking in the rear
view mirror. So true, right?Because if I think about the
things that I've done, like, Itake all sorts of weird steps
(14:44):
off of a cliff, right? Like,just leaps of faith. I'm like,
sometimes are huge. Like, thefirst big one that I remember is
when I decided I was going to bemassage therapist, which nobody
understood that I why it. Wasdoing it. I did it, loved it,
left it for good reasons. Butit, I don't regret it, but it's
like, like, where do.
That come from, right? But Idon't regret that decision one
bit. But these I didn'trecognize it as being as pivotal
(15:07):
to who I am today until I waslooking back at it in my rear
view mirror, right? It was oneof my like, what are you doing?
Like, what? Like, what, what,Indra, what are you doing? What
are you doing right now? Yeah,well, that reminds me, like I
had a reflection the other dayof just how much easier it was
to listen to our intuition whenearlier in our careers and like,
(15:30):
earlier in life. But similarly,I have plenty of those types of
stories too, where it was justlike a flash idea, and like, a
week later I was doing it. Isigned up for the course I done?
And I'm like, Man, did I justused to move fast, like and to
your point, in retrospect, I'mlike, I'm so glad I did that. I
(15:52):
was really pulled by thatthrough line of my inner voice
and my inner identity and butI'm finding as I'm getting
older, more responsibilities,more identities, I'm attached to
now, you know, I'm attached tothe idea of being on this
(16:13):
corporate ladder. I'm attachedto the neighborhood I live in,
and maybe what that says aboutme, right? So, so now that
moment of inspiration getsimmediately followed by all the
reasons why it's going to be toohard to follow, or it's, you
know, too disruptive toeverything else I've got going
(16:36):
on. Yeah, so I just feel likeit's so important to
kind of really go back to, likewe talked about, go back to
those times when you were justreally unfiltered, listening to
your intuition and say, Okay,what was it about that moment
that gave me the ability to,like, move so quickly and move
(16:56):
so confidently in that newdirection, and kind of maybe
figure out if there's pieces ofwhat's built up around you since
then that you can shed a phrasethat's coming to mind is shut up
a lot this week. Is how comfortand safety are, not couples,
right? What feels safe sometimesnot safe. That like the when
(17:17):
people ask me, What do you meanby that? I usually talk about
the frog being boiled. Example,that frog is having a great time
in a Hot Dub until it's too lateand it's cooked, right? So, like
sick, comfort was not safe forthe frog. And I think that we
lean into because life gets socomplex, and we collect all
these experiences that informwho we are really, oh, let me go
(17:40):
for the safe thing. Let me gofor the comfortable thing. Let
me like and, or what's perceivedas safe, right? And, and we're
just trying to survive. And so,like, if somebody hasn't
listened to their voice, I don'twant them to think that they're
bad. There's no, there's nomoral judgment here. Totally,
totally fine, because there'sdifferent seasons of your life
where you need different things.But just just, I think that as
(18:03):
you get older, the comfortstarts to not be safe anymore.
Just kind of why we do a loopagain. We're like, kind of
looping back to, like, yeah,when did I feel inflow as a
human, not in like a craft ofthe things that I do, or, you
know, my hobbies, or whatever itmight be, but in flow with who I
(18:25):
am, in alignment with who I am,and that's where you know that
second chapter, or whateverchapter, but that new chapter
can start for you again. Well, Ilove this rebrand of the midlife
crisis.
It's not a place we can justswitch that shit. Yeah, keep
moving. Yeah, no, no, but inexactly the sense of what you're
saying, like, there comes apoint where you have kind of
(18:49):
built up a bunch of aspects ofyour life to the point where
hopefully you did get a littlebit more comfortable. And there
is that moment where the comfortstarts to feel misaligned. And
to me, I'm like, what if that isactually, quote, unquote, what
people call the midlife crisis.It's actually the moment where
you say, I've gotten toocomfortable,
(19:11):
and I need to rediscover, youknow, myself, Rediscover
meaning, reconnect a purpose. Sodon't everyone go buy a red
sports car. That's not what I'mtalking about, but that could be
authentic choice. Maybe thedifference between, like, the
midlife crisis of the 80s and90s, yeah, is it was a blatant
(19:32):
disregard for what anyone elselike, how my actions impacted
anyone else when I was in thatred sports car, and I don't care
about my family and how it'sgoing to impact our finances.
Right now, it's a crisis. Yes, Ithink that there is a if there's
an acknowledgement and a pivot,and I'll dare to say rebirth, I
can't think of a betterreigniting right reunification,
(19:55):
right itself. That's verydifferent. And I think they,
they time themselves.
The same place, and I happenedto be talking to somebody about
this, like a similar topic. AndI said, Yeah, I guess people
used to call it a midlifecrisis, but I don't feel like
that phrase fits anymore, right.And the person said to me,
they're like, oh. And it was, itwas a needs to be clear. It was
(20:15):
a cis white man who was roughlymy age. And he said to me, he
goes, Oh, no, no. Only men havemidlife crises. Women figure
stuff out. And I was like, I'mlike, okay, cool, cool. I like
mad, rebrand. I can't disagree.And I'm like that, that I mean,
I don't know if I would havesaid that out loud, but I will
(20:39):
take that exactly. We willendorse. But because I think
it's different, I think it'sdifferent. And I think that, I
think that the other thing isthat the expectations of the
societal expectations aredifferent too. But if you think
about what, like the boomergeneration, the expectations, I
still remember my mother tellingme, like, once you turn 30, you
can't have long hair. Like,there as one example. The reason
(21:02):
I'm sharing that one is theGolden Girls. There was that
whole meme, like, I don't knowhow 510, years ago, where people
were putting on differenthairstyles on the Golden Girls,
there were 50, yeah, they were50 on the show, right? And that
is not what 50 looks like today,right? And people figure out the
hairstyles, right? Just changingourselves, yeah, stuck into,
like, I need to have a shorthair, because that's what we do
(21:24):
at that age, right? Well, it's,it's also really important. What
you're kind of pointing to isjust the fact that, depending on
your intersecting identity, youryour kind of permission
structure, in a way to maybe,you know, access your inner
(21:46):
voice and just do kind of thingsthat are in alignment. It can be
curtailed because you'reconstantly filtering what that
inner voice is saying through,like I said earlier, the
responsibility that you feel toyour family, responsibility you
feel to your community,responsibility you feel to
represent, yes, your others whoshare your identities in a way
(22:09):
that you know you would feelproud of like I definitely have
felt this pressure as a blackwoman in corporate America.
There is, you know, kind of ameasure of this is maybe what I
want to do, but I'm alsofiltering it through the lens
of, okay, well, how will thisrepresent, how will this
ultimately showcase what blackwomen are capable of, and being
(22:32):
that beacon maybe for others whowant to join my industry
eventually. So when you putthose additional kind of lenses
and filters on it can create adistance between you and your
inner voice. And so I've beenactually really disheartened,
but I shouldn't have beensurprised, but positively
(22:53):
surprised by how many peoplethat I've met through building
unpopular decisions, through,you know, working and meeting
the community that you've builtaround messy middle as well. How
many people are women, eldestdaughters, members of a diaspora
like we can go on about theidentity LGBT, like all the
(23:15):
different identities, because Ido think leaving space for the
imperfect journey is especiallyhard in those spaces, because
we're always taught to be twiceas good
and and so this is why theseconversations are so important.
I'm glad that you brought inintersectionality, because I
think that we need to, all of usneed to be aware of it for
(23:37):
different reasons, for differentreasons, because one person's
journey can't be someone else'sfor so many reasons, in general,
but this specifically, becausenot all of us have permission,
I'll say, or the latitude. Maybethat's a more gracious term. Not
all of us have the latitude towalk in this world with reckless
(23:58):
abandon, right? And that is, andwhen you're in that scenario,
maybe honoring your inner voicecan be happen in small ways. It
can happen privately. It canhappen in it doesn't have to be
big bold, sports car, Brodie,you know, rash kind of things,
(24:18):
or, you know, like, I'm quittingmy job, like when I left my job
the most recent time I said tome, I did. I'm like, I did. Just
save myself. And number one,number two, I recognize my
privilege. I'm like, noteveryone has this privilege.
This is such a privilege. And sobe gracious with yourself when
you when you do or don't, listento your inner voice, and be
(24:39):
gracious with others when theydo or don't. You can't, you
can't, should someone else andhow they should do it. You have
no you have no idea, you have noidea what they're living with,
especially you have no idea whatidentities they have, because
it's not always visible, right,right? So thank you for bringing
that in. Yeah, absolutely. Theother thing I would add is also
(24:59):
on top.
Being gracious with others, alsorecognizing that you listening
to your own inner voice andshowing that example is also a
part of representation. And I,you know, was feeling a lot of
guilt, you know, leaving my lastopportunity as well. I loved my
team. They're phenomenal people.And I was just like, actually
(25:22):
one of the best things I coulddo is showcase to them what it
looks like when somebody ischoosing to live in alignment,
choosing to
be audacious, choosing to listento their inner voice. And that's
actually the gift and therepresentation that I can give
to my team and to others that Icared about a lot. That's really
(25:43):
big, that's really big. Thatfeels like a really good pausing
point conversation, anythingelse that you want to add, or
anything you want to share, howpeople can find you, or any of
those things, yeah, well, a lotof what I shared here is really
the kind of impetus and andpurpose behind what I'm building
(26:03):
now with unpopular decision. Soif people do want to follow and
hear kind of more of theseconversation people not when,
yes, when
we're interviewing everydaypeople like, like you me, Indra,
you know like about theirexperiences of choosing
differently. And so they canfind us on Instagram, unpopular
(26:24):
decisions, pod. They can find uson substack at unpopular
decisions. And of course, youcan find me on LinkedIn. Jamila
Calhoun, okay, and I will makesure that all the notes are in
the show notes, so all the linksto all the things, yes. Thank
you so much for joining me. Iknow that people will feel seen,
(26:44):
heard, will have learnedsomething from this, so I hope
you join us next time foranother topic from the messy
middle. Bye everyone.
Thanks for taking time with usin the messy middle word of
mouth remains most powerful wayfor people to find us. If this
episode sparked something foryou, we'd love it. If you'd
(27:06):
subscribe to the podcast on yourfavorite app, download a few
episodes and share it withsomeone else who's navigating
the in between. Do you haveideas for future episodes or
topics you'd like us to explore?You can find our feedback form
at the messy middle matters.comor in the show notes, thank you
for joining us on this journey.This work is better when we do
it together, until next timeyou.
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