March 4, 2026 • 34 mins
In this conversation, Kat Logan joins Indra to explore the complexities of agency life, discussing the challenges and rewards of working in a dynamic environment. They delve into the impact of client culture, the revolving door of talent, and the importance of building community and support within agencies. The discussion highlights the nuances of navigating agency culture, managing uncertainty, and adapting to different styles while emphasizing the need for connection and collaboration among colleagues. The episode concludes with a teaser for the next topic on imposter syndrome.
Key Topics
- Agency culture and personality influence
- Impact of client and company culture
- Revolving door of talent and team dynamics
- Adapting to agency structure and leadership styles
- Supporting each other in agency environments
- Managing uncertainty and career stability
- Networking and community building within agencies
- Impacts of industry crises on agency work
Find Kat:
- Kat on LinkedIn:https://www.linkedin.com/in/katlogan/
- Kat’s Website: https://www.illuminatedcoach.com/
- Kat on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/katlogan01
More from Indra and The Messy Middle Matters
- Indra on LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/indrak/
- Indra’s Blog: https://peopleprocessthings.substack.com
- The Messy Middle Matters on Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/themessymiddlematters/
- Feedback for The Messy Middle Matters: https://messymiddlematters.com/feedback
- The Messy Middle Matters Merch https://messymiddlemerch.com
Keywords
agency life, career development, networking, agency culture, leadership, adaptability, agency challenges, agency success, agency community, imposter syndrome
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Indra Klavins (00:05):
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone, welcomeback to the messy middle matters
today. I'm so excited becausewe're going to be talking about
agency life, right? And so forme, those of you who don't know
(00:29):
me all that well may not realizethat where I cut my teeth
professionally, I always believethat we come of age in a
company, and that shapes us. Forme, it happened to be an agency.
It was a digital agency calledrazor fish, and I still remember
my first day. Pete Stein, ourregional president, came in,
into the conference room. Wewere all getting onboarded by HR
(00:51):
and IT and everybody else. Andhe started the conversation with
you guys were hired because youwere the smartest kids in your
room and all of the classroomsthat you've ever been in before,
all the companies you've everworked for before, but here,
everyone used to be the smartestkid in the room, so recalibrate
and get started. And it was justit was just like wall. It felt
(01:13):
like a wallop, but it wasactually the most generous thing
he could have done, because itreally set the context for what
agency life would be like, whatrole I would be playing, how I
might be interacting witheveryone else around me. So I am
delighted to have Kat joining mefor the conversation today,
because she is also verypassionate about agency life.
(01:36):
And this is actually a teaser.This can be a two part series,
so I'm so excited. So welcomeKat. Thank you for joining me.
Kat Logan (01:42):
Thanks so much, Indra. It's such a pleasure to
be here. Yeah, why
Indra Klavins (01:46):
don't you tell everyone a little bit about
yourself so they get to knowyou, a little bit about your
perspectives.
Kat Logan (01:50):
Yeah, sure. So you might be able to guess from my
accent. I'm originally fromAustralia, but I moved about
1213, years ago to New York.Before that, I'd worked client
side marketing. When I moved toNew York, I wanted to move into
strategy at an agency, and I wasin my mid 20s, so I'd had some
experience, but it was acompletely new world, new
(02:13):
culture, and, you know, agencyexperience is pretty
overwhelming. So since then,I've worked at a number of
different agencies in New York,Saatchi and Saatchi, Johannes,
Leonardo, gray, Omnicom, bigones, small ones, and and,
funnily enough, I mean, that'squite common, is a bit more, but
(02:33):
there is, you know, a revolvingdoor of people, because people
tend to move around a lot inagency life. And, you know, I've
gotten so much from my breadthof experience at different
agencies, but it's funny, likestepping out of full time work a
few years ago and into freelanceconsulting and then also
becoming a coach. I really gotnew perspective on it, and it
(02:56):
was funny when I first gotintroduced to you and your
amazing podcast. I thought itwas so interesting because I was
like, yeah, like, the middle ofagency life is kind of messy and
is very nuanced and interestingin itself. So yeah, it was, it
was interesting when I'velistened to some of your
episodes to kind of like, listento it with that perspective of
(03:19):
the messy middle of agencylives. So it's a pleasure to be
here and talk to you about it.
Indra Klavins (03:24):
I'm delighted. I'm delighted. And what I want
to say is, like, we're going tobe talking about the best and
the challenges, right? Because,like I said, agency, my time at
razor fish, I was there, I thinkfour years, if I'm remembering
correctly, around four ishyears. It shaped me. It gave me
skills that I use to this day,that I never thought that I
would have it. It prepared mefor so many different facets of
(03:47):
life and facets of work that Iwould have never, ever, ever
gotten if I'd only stayed onclient side. And just to give
people language, client sidemeans you're in house. You're
working for a company thatcreates a product and puts
things out. Agency side isyou're helping other folks. You
know, just for gross simplicityin in house, in house client
(04:10):
side, same thing working in acompany, and agency side is its
own thing. Or consulting, wemight throw that word out there
too. That'll be also like thenon in house folks. So anyway,
yeah, so you know, how did you,how did you first land in agency
life? Is that something you'repursuit, or is it? Is it? Is it
(04:31):
life just landed you there andyou're you've really got to
experience it for the firsttime.
Kat Logan (04:35):
It was kind of, you know that that New York dream,
where I landed in New Yorkwithout a job, as soon as I
landed, I was like, No, I'mgetting a job. And you know, New
York is going to be my place. SoI hustled for three months. I
met with 70 people for coffee,for like, chats. I actually
remember meeting someone atRazorfish who was in Australia.
I would just literally talk toanyone and anyone dominicanuto,
(04:58):
maybe I. I don't think it washim.
Indra Klavins (05:01):
No, he's like, he's, there are a lot of Aussies
at Razorfish. There were a lot.
Kat Logan (05:06):
And that's the funny thing about New York and
advertising life. There are somany Australians
Indra Klavins (05:10):
out there. So you're meeting with a lot of
people having copies, yeah.
Kat Logan (05:15):
And then I, I mean, I thought it was kind of a scan.
They were like, do you want togo for an interview at Saatchi?
And Saatchi? And I was like,yes, absolutely. And, you know,
it was one of those right place,right time kind of situations,
but the hustle kind of paid off,and I got a job as a strategy.
It's kind of a mid levelstrategist at that time at
(05:35):
Saatchi, which was prettyincredible, you know, because
it's got such an amazing name.You know, Saatchi is so amazing
in so many ways, in terms of thebrands that they have. Like, I
was working on Miller Lite,Chase, Walmart during that
period, with some amazing,talented strategy directors and
yeah, senior strategists, yeah.
Indra Klavins (05:54):
And so you're just named a whole bunch of
different brands. I'd say that'sone of the best things about
agency life is it expose you?Exposes you to such a breadth of
industries, such a breadth ofclient types, such a breadth of
types of work that are outthere. Even if you are within
one craft strategy, you could beworking across a lot of
(06:15):
different things and collectinga lot of knowledge along the
way.
Kat Logan (06:19):
Yeah, absolutely. And it was funny, like having that
first experience, because I waslike, Okay, this is what it's
like to be a strategist at anagency. This is what it is,
yeah, you know, since then,what's interesting is, you know,
every agency you go to is so, sodifferent. You know, they have
different styles, different waysof working, different
(06:40):
approaches, and the people atthe top kind of really shape
that. And then the people youyou're managed by, shape that,
the people you collaborate. AndI think it's interesting, you
know, comparing then the bigkind of network agencies to,
like, smaller agencies, becausethey're really their own beast,
you know, they're shaped moredirectly by the founders, who
are, you know, very present andstill have that
Indra Klavins (07:01):
influence at them, yeah? And it's, you know,
the phrase that was coming tomind is, and it's not true
everywhere. To your point, everyagency is a little bit
different, but some of them canbe so personality driven, right?
And that totally makes sense,because you're pitching work all
the time, you're givingpresentations to clients all the
(07:22):
time. And through that, you needto develop your own persona,
your own your own identity, andso that that sometimes can shape
also the agencies and the waythat the agencies work.
Kat Logan (07:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's, it's almost
like, if the newer the agency,maybe the smaller the agency,
probably like, the closer orlike, the more that founders
touch is on it in terms of,like, how you work. Like, is it
cultural driven? Is it more likedata driven in terms of how you
approach things? Like, what kindof clients are you going after?
(07:54):
What type of projects are yougoing after? But that's
interesting itself, where it'slike, yeah, that the personality
of that founders is definitelyhas more of an imprint.
Indra Klavins (08:05):
Yeah, and for I was I got to razor fish after
the founders had already steppedaway, it still had a little bit
of those echoes of things. Butone of the things that I found
as I moved from client toclient, project to project, I
was not exclusively, but largelyin the financial services
vertical there. What wasinteresting was how much my
(08:27):
clients culture impacted my dayto day, the way that my team
worked, the way that, you know,and it was this really
interesting experience tonavigate, because my role when I
was there, Senior ProjectManager, working a lot with the
account teams and with the BDteams and in developing things.
But it wasn't just the razorfish culture that I was trying
(08:49):
to align with. It was also theculture of the company that I
was working with. And findinglike walking that fine line was
always I found it a challenge. Idon't know how it was for you?
Yeah.
Kat Logan (09:02):
I mean, that's that's interesting in itself. I'm
curious, how would you describethe the finance culture that
kind of impacted you
Indra Klavins (09:09):
financial services? So it was, well, it
was also a really wild time tobe in a financial services
vertical. So I was at razorfish. I'm going to guess halfway
through I would literally haveto look at my LinkedIn to know
exactly when it was but I wasthere when the financial when
the housing market collapsedhere in the US. So that impacted
(09:32):
everyone, either directly,indirectly, clients. I have
stories to tell that I would notever tell on a podcast. But so
for me, it was real. It was areally unique and interesting
time to be working at an agencyduring a economic crisis that
was heavily impacting all of ourday to day clients, but more
(09:53):
mostly, primarily the verticalthat I sat in. And so I'd say.
Before that, before that, itwas, I think it was a little bit
cleaner, like everything wasvery buttoned up, very clear. It
was, it was the standardoperating procedures of what you
would have to do to balancethose two cultures. But after
(10:14):
the collapse, it was, it wasvery different. It was very
different because our clientshad to operate in such a very
different way. Not only werethey having to deal with their
financial headwinds and theirrestructurings and all of the
and the regulatory environmentchanging, and the way that they
were showing up for clients orinvestors or the general public
(10:36):
was changing. So it was a ride.It was a ride, not your typical
one, but it's the moment whereweird side story, but it's the
moment when every single projectfrom that moment onwards, I was
like, you know, what happens inthe and I'll bleep this out,
what happens in the OH SHITscenario, right? So, you know,
(10:58):
like, where everyone needed tobe really ready for the you
know, how do I put up a big,giant message on my website, on
my in that point, apps werebarely there yet. But how do I
put up a message for all myclients that like we're on it,
we're on it, we're payingattention, we're on it, but it
needs to take priority over yourday to day business, because you
have the press coming in, youhave all these other people
(11:19):
coming in, and so from then on,I was like, Okay, I need to
worry about that, that that,like everything is sideways
scenario, and always have a planfor that. So that's one of the
things that shaped me. Simplequestion you asked me, but lots
of memories came rushing back asyou asked it.
Unknown (11:35):
No. I mean, I was genuinely, genuinely curious.
But I think you're completelyright? I think the client's
culture definitely shapes, youknow, you as an agency, how you
respond, what you prioritize.For example, I worked on auto
for a while, and you know,people kind of think it's just
about making ads for consumers.And you know, the goal is for
(11:57):
them to buy cars. But in auto,you know, the dealers have a lot
of influence, so we wereactually showing ads to dealers.
And, you know, the ads are forthe consumers and to obviously
drive sales, but the dealers hadfeedback and actually had input,
which is a dynamic I had no ideaabout before working on auto.
And, yeah, like, that'sinteresting in itself. It's,
(12:20):
definitely nuanced in terms of,like, how you as an agency work
with different clients, and kindof model yourself and how you
are with them based on theirneeds.
Indra Klavins (12:32):
Yeah, and as you're talking about it, the
other thing that comes to mind,and I don't think this is unique
to my role, might have been moreprominent in my role, probably
pretty prominent in your rolethat you had, but you get
exposed to the way thatorganizations function in a very
different way than if you werein house, like I imagine myself,
like as a software engineer in acompany I'm working on my task.
(12:55):
I'm doing my thing as a softwareengineer inside of an agency
where I'm trying to work onsomething, not my role, but I'm
just trying to give you guys adifferent example. But if I'm
working as a software engineerinside of an agency, I might
have this indirect visibilityinto how things work, whether
it's how the which client, whichcontracts did go through, which
(13:18):
contracts didn't go through.Like, how many stakeholders are
we talking to? How many peoplehave a have a say? To your
point, like, do, do I need toshow our work to dealers,
because we need to make surethat they can use the system
that I'm key, keying in andcoding together? You know, those
are, those are things that youwouldn't necessarily have as
(13:39):
much visibility into if you'reworking in house,
Kat Logan (13:43):
yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's so different. And it's,
it's just another layout, like,you know, again, you go into it
being like, Great, we'll makeads for the client, and they'll
be near auto ads or this. Butit's, it's so, so different.
And, yeah, there are so manydifferent varieties of like,
what a client agencyrelationship looks like because
of that?
Indra Klavins (14:03):
Yeah, no, totally. And one of the things
that you also talked about alittle bit earlier was the
revolving door of talent and ofthe people, whether it's on, you
know, your side, whether it's onthe client side, as things shift
and change. I gave one exampleof what would have caused a
revolving door, you know, afinancial crisis that that'll
(14:24):
cause some sort of, you know,change in staff and the people
that you're working with in aday to day basis. Do you want to
talk a little bit about, like,whether it was the triggers or
even, like, the impact to theteam when that stuff happens,
and how do you adapt, and how doyou change to that?
Kat Logan (14:40):
Yeah, I mean, the revolving door in itself is
interesting, because, again, youknow, we're talking about, like,
different ways that agenciesoperate, and that's based on
founder. It's based on the teamand the personalities you work
with. But you know, there ismore transience. I guess, in
agency life, more people movearound. It's more common than.
The other industries, and that'sinteresting, I think, from a
(15:03):
personal perspective, like Imyself was conditioned early to
be like, okay, like time tostart something new, to try a
different agency. But it also,you know, impacts the team,
because you'll be collaboratingand working with someone, and
then they move on, and thensomeone else comes in. And I
think that the great, greatthing about creativity and the
(15:26):
agency kind of side is just howfluid and subjective and gray it
is. You know, there are amillion ways to make an ad.
There are a million differentways an ad could turn out. But
it's also like hard as well,because someone's style and
where you're working could becompletely different. You could
have one manager that reallyprioritizes the data and the
(15:47):
research and like, a reallytight brief that's like
beautifully worded, and thenanother person that comes in and
says, No, it's all about, youknow, having meetings and
collaborating. And yes, thebrief is important, but it's,
it's about like, in personcollaboration, which could be
different. They could prioritizethat. So I think what's
interesting with the revolvingdoor is, you know, it's another
(16:10):
layer. It's like, you know,which people within the agency,
you know, are we diving with?And then if someone shifts and
change, that also kind ofchanges how you personally work
and how you work within yourteam. It's almost interesting
when you think about it. Youknow, we talked about founders
and agency structure. So that'sone layer. Then, like the
management team is another initself. Like how that operates,
(16:32):
who's in that layer that really,really impacts how you work. You
know, what you prioritize as astrategist or as a creative and
then it's almost like the peopleat your level, like, Who are you
working with? You know, how arethey working? What's their
style? And what happens if, youknow, one piece of the puzzle
changes that kind of affectseverything. And I think what's
interesting is, you know, whenyou think about that and think
(16:54):
about those different layers,it's quite heavy, in a sense of,
you know, you're not just comingto work and being an amazing
strategist and producing greatworks. You're thinking about the
dynamics. You're thinking aboutthe dynamics of the team at your
level, of the management of thefounders and their expectations,
you know, or the you know, theagency, holding company, and
what mandate, and then you havethe client as well. And you're
(17:17):
thinking about, okay, what arethey expecting? Are they
expecting? You know, this in thedeck, when we present, what
proactive things should we bedoing every quarter for them,
you know? And so there are somany layers, and it is heavy,
yeah.
Indra Klavins (17:31):
And I've seen people navigate, you know, if
I'm thinking about just likepolar opposite needs, you know,
maybe they're not polaropposite, but different,
different needs, like, there isthe person who I know them, I
can I'm just picturing facesnow. There are the people who
love that novelty, who lovebeing able to have that constant
shift of dynamics, right? Andthat's, you know, I think that
(17:55):
it's they might get frustratedif they get stuck in an account,
right? For whatever reason, theclient falls in love with them,
or, you know, might be theremight be like financial
pressures. There's lots ofreasons that they can happen for
them. It could be that challengeof always finding that new thing
that's going to be novel andstimulating and challenge them.
(18:16):
And then on the other side ofthe spectrum I've seen where
there were pods of people, orclusters of people that would
travel as a unit, right? Itcould be as simple as a creative
director and associate designer,you know, and a, you know, a
regular designer that that thattravel together. Or it could be
like cross functional, wherethere's the strategist, the
(18:37):
designer, and, you know, there'sthat one front end coder that
love to love to love friend anddeveloper, who love to work
together, you know? And thoseare two different models that
I've seen for people to find, toget the most out of their agency
experience, but also findsomething that suits them in
their temperament. Yeah, that'salso, have you seen any other
(18:57):
models? Are those familiarmodels?
Kat Logan (18:59):
Yeah, yeah, no, those, those are definitely,
and, you know, like, people taketheir people with them, so
someone moves, they might moveas a team, as they said, and
then they're like, yeah, yeah, Iworked with this amazing person,
like, we're bringing them over,and I think that's also
interesting, yeah. So it's, it'squite dynamic, and it is really
the people that then shape, youknow, how the work is done, and
(19:21):
the work culture as well, whichis super interesting, yeah.
Indra Klavins (19:25):
And one of the things that we talked about when
we when we first had our deeperdive, you know, off, off camera,
so to speak, we were talkingabout the fact that, you know,
we were talking about the messymiddle of careers too, right?
And the diet, you know, you've,there's, there's, it's very
there. As much as somebody who'sin house struggles to get the
(19:46):
support that they need, I'mgoing to say that it might be
just a little bit harder forpeople on the agency side to
find the support that they needas they're navigating that
middle, because it's so dynamic,because there are so many
different flavors of things andpositive. Disabilities, there
isn't a one size fits all foreveryone, or one size fits most,
or two sizes fit most. I don'teven know what it might be, but
(20:09):
that that having to manage up,down sideways. I know that you
have a lot of experience withthat, whether directly or
working with clients or whateverit might be. Yeah.
Kat Logan (20:18):
I mean, that's interesting in itself, and when
you think about the messy middleof agency life there the messy,
or the middle part is so in asense. So yeah, you know people
that come in at junior level,and those people don't have much
experience, you know, they'rebeing mentored, managed all of
that, and then there are peopleat the top. But when you think
about it, like, I don't know forsure, but it feels like 80, 85%
(20:41):
of people in an agency are inthat middle part, which is quite
big, and there are so manydifferent roles, like you could
be called a strategy directorand be doing a million different
things. It just depends on theagency and the team. And as you
said, there's there's not a lotof support. It is really
dependent on your manager. Ifyou have a good manager, you
(21:03):
know, some fees are better thanothers at, you know, support
from the top and making surepeople, you know, have what they
need and feel guided andsupported and are kind of
looking out for people in termsof, like, you know, are they?
Are they having the support theyneed to do their job but to feel
comfortable? But then there'salso the realities of agencies,
where, you know the revolvingdoor is by choice, but a lot of
(21:27):
times, and unfortunately, we'veseen this a lot, I think
recently, the last six months,it's not there are layoffs,
redundancies, and things that wecan't predict. So that, in
itself, is tough because thingsare out of your control, and
there's only a certain level ofcomfort, I'd say, because you
don't know what's going tohappen tomorrow. It's dependent
on, you know, if the agencykeeps a client or doesn't, or,
(21:49):
you know, you used the exampleof the housing market, you know,
things out of our control,where, in a sense, it's, it's
our Is someone getting or arepeople getting the support they
need from a role? But then alsothere's, there's that underlying
discomfort, because at the endof the day, you you're not sure
what's going to happen longerterm and and with your role as
well, which is, which is tough,yeah.
Indra Klavins (22:12):
And what I would say, what's different between
then and now, I would say, isthat at one point in time, I
would have said that there isthere, there. There's a sense of
less security at an agency,whether that's your role or your
project or your relationshipwith your client, because
(22:32):
they're just like you said,there's so many factors that can
be factoring in your day to day.But I would say that people who
are in house don't have as muchof a sense of security as they
once did because of the way thatthat that that that side of the,
that side of the world, isoperating as well. There is a
(22:52):
lot of that. Like, there itfeels, sometimes you feel like
you're standing on quicksand, oryou're not sure if you're
standing on quicksand, like, isthe is it going to give today,
or is it not going to givetoday? And so I have the things
that I've done in the past,like, what are if somebody is
feeling that kind ofuncertainty, what advice do you
give them to be able to just toget to find themselves, create
(23:17):
themselves enough stability tobe able to navigate the world
and move forward, because thatcould feel paralyzing if you're
not feeling like you have anysort of agency in it. No, no, a
double use of the word,
Kat Logan (23:31):
yeah, that's such a great question. I mean, I think
there are a few things, I think,you know, there are things in
life that we can't control, andI think, you know, separating
that from from what we cancontrol upland itself. So, you
know, it's true for all of us.You know, we can, we can all
lose a full time job tomorrow,right? So what can we do to kind
(23:51):
of like set ourselves up forsuccess? You know, if that does
happen, so continuing tonetwork, not just like
connecting with your immediateteam, but like finding mentors,
whether it's like, in an agencyor outside of an agency, to kind
of like, give you that guidance.But start to think about, okay,
if something does happen, do Ihave a network? It could be
through mentors. It could bejust through networking with
(24:13):
other people in agency life. Andthen I think it's it's thinking
about, well, if the worst doescome to us, you know, there are
jobs, there are freelance Icould probably get by. But then
I think coming back to, okay,that's out of my control, but in
my day, I can turn up, I can doa good job. I can, like, focus
my attention on, you know, thetask at hand. I can think about
(24:36):
that. I can also think about,well, is there something
proactive I could do too? Notall of us have time just
depending on, you know,workloads, but you know, part of
being at an agency is also kindof like taking taking the
opportunity to really exert yourcreativity in in ways that are
after you, but also ways thataren't like, for example, if
(24:59):
you're working on a. Certaincategory, is there a proactive
thing you could do to bring theclient, like, trends for that
quarter, you know, like thinkingabout, like, how to go above and
beyond, you know, if you do havethat kind of capacity, just so,
you know, if something doeshappen, you're really all set up
success in terms of, like, youknow, it have I demonstrated,
(25:21):
you know, my worth and valuebeyond kind of what's been asked
day to day.
Indra Klavins (25:26):
I love that, and I love that you you're started
talking about trends, becausethe one, one of the biggest
differences between agency sideand in house, is that on the
agency side, you're more likelyto trends, new technologies,
novel ideas, novel concepts, aremore likely to come into your
orbit of understanding than theyare when you're in house and and
(25:48):
being able to collect those andunderstand all the great things
that you know that you can bringto whether it's your next client
project, whether it's your nextagency job, whether you Go in
house, you've you've have accessto so much more novelty for lack
of a better term. It's not thebest term, but you get to see
(26:09):
all these like emergent,nascent, developing things, and
they they whether it's throughyour clients or through
partners, or through strategistslike yourself who are keeping
their eye on the market andwhat's what's trendy, or on
trend, or trending, or whateverit might be, that's a huge
thing. And the one other thingthat I would add also is create
(26:30):
your community inside of likeyou were talking about
networking outside, but evenwithin the organization, like,
create your community like oneof the I don't even, I don't
remember what antiquated. AlwaysYammer it was a way, way
antiquated messaging system.Way, way, way antiquated
messaging system, but it was, isI and a colleague of mine,
(26:53):
Simon, also an Aussie, weactually pulled together a
knowledge repository for theproject, program, operations,
management, craft, disciplinewithin the within the within
razor fish to be able to helpeach other out as a community.
Hey, does anybody have a, youknow, a scoping tool that has
(27:16):
these particular factors in it,and we help to pull that
together and generate acommunity within that community,
because it was that, thatparticular discipline, you know,
usually we're very scattered,and there's one of us on a
project or on even on a client,and we don't really have to talk
to each other, but being ableto, like, lean on each other
when something would gosideways, that was a huge thing.
Kat Logan (27:39):
Yeah, I love, love, love that it's, it's such great
advice. And I think it can betough. Like, as you move around,
you'll, you know, it can bequite I don't know if
confronting is the right word,but you can feel intimidated.
You know, you turn up in anagency, and everyone is so smart
and so seemingly confident.They're in their groove, and
you're like, like, no one wantsto be friends with me, but, you
(28:02):
know, like, it's not true atall, like people do want to
connect, and that's honestly,where agency culture is at its
best. I think when you do reachout, you do say hi to someone at
the water cooler, if you're youknow, like in the office, or
even just like, you know,through coffee or virtual coffee
connections over slack. And Ihonestly think that you know
(28:24):
that that proactive reaching outand connections where
possibilities can happen bothpersonally, but I think for the
agency as well, like you mightbe able to uncover something
where you're like, Oh, that's agreat proactive idea. I could do
with someone who's in acompletely other team that I
wouldn't have talked tootherwise, but you know, maybe
you're both great at, like,picking up on social trends, and
(28:45):
you know, the agency doesn'treally have a strong social
capability, so maybe it'ssomething you could build
together. Yeah, maybe, like, youknow, if the unfortunate does
happen, of you know, your clientdoes leave the agency, you know
you've connected with someone onanother team, so that something
fruitful might come for that.But I don't think there's any
harm that can come from likereaching out and connecting,
(29:06):
like cross functionally, youknow, at an agency, building
those connections that wouldn'texist naturally, just because
your role, but just like formingthem because of networking, but
because of, you know, what couldcome of that in terms of, like,
sparks and creativity, I
Indra Klavins (29:23):
love I love that, and I especially love the one
thing that you hit on that Iwant to make sure I underscore
people within agency life reallywant to support each other.
Like, there is, I remember,there was a moment where I was
in, I don't know if it was aclient meeting, a pitch meeting,
whatever, and there are a bunchof us around the table, and one
person from Razorfish wassitting next to me, across from
(29:46):
me, doesn't matter where theywere. And we were like, yes, and
as such and such said, and theywould say yes, and as Indra
said, and like, oh yeah, we loveto think about things this way.
I had never met this person inmy life. I had we didn't even
say. Hello to like they weliterally walked into the
conference room and discoveredthat we were at the table
together, but we knew that wewere a team. We had an
(30:07):
objective. We were going to makeeach other shine. And then as we
were leaving, like, Oh my God,who are you? What accounts are
you working on? How are youworking on things? And you forge
that friendship, and you willsupport each other because
you're both vested in eachother's success.
Kat Logan (30:22):
I absolutely love that. I think there is that
natural support that does comein, which is really nice,
because agency life overall canbe cut through, you know, just
because of the nature of all thedifferent factors, you know,
that we've talked about. I alsothink it's interesting. I mean,
one thing we briefly talkedabout, but with all like, the
breadth and subjectivity, youknow, there are so many
(30:45):
varieties of like, you know,what an account director should
be, what a creative director ora strategy director, it can
sometimes be tough. If you landat an agency you've interviewed
well, you shared your approach,you said work, but you land and
you're like, oh, wow, I am. Mystyle is really different. My
work process is so different tothis agency. I'm just not used
(31:07):
to it. I mean, it can be amoment where, you know, it's
overwhelming, but it's also likean opportunity to kind of like,
okay, I'm here. How can I learn?How can I maybe adapt? How can I
bring my own way of working andthose strengths to this agency,
and almost like, kind of meet inthe middle, in a sense, so
(31:28):
connect with others that do yourrole can be huge in that. And I
think sometimes, like,especially, you know, those who
have maybe less experience, canfeel a little bit intimidating,
a little bit like, oh, like, ifthey're better than me, you
know, in the same role and adifferent team, like, is that
(31:48):
bad? Is the manager going to belike, Oh, this person's not as
good as this person. But it'snot about that at all. It's,
it's like, we all bring suchdifferent things to a role. It's
like, how can we kind of shareour way of working, our approach
learn from others, and kind oflike, you know, form what's
best. I think the more we learnabout different processes and
creativity, the better we are,because we can, kind of like,
(32:11):
you know, really be at ourstrong suit, build off each
other, but also kind of improveour own way of thinking and
working as well.
Indra Klavins (32:20):
Love that. I love that. And I think that's a
wonderful transition for us, orit's a wonderful pausing point,
we'll say for everybody, becausethe next time that we would that
we actually have a chance totalk, or everyone gets to hear
us talk at is we're going to betalking about imposter syndrome.
And you know all of that, and Iknow you have so many wonderful
(32:42):
thoughts around impostersyndrome, but we also are going
to be talking about like, how itshows up in different types of
environments, which is why Ithought it was so important for
us to talk about agency life.And I am, I am so grateful that
I'm so grateful that you joinedme for this topic, because I've
represented it a bit in withinepisodes, but being able to dig
(33:04):
in a lot deeper and get anotherperson's perspective on it is is
just so important and sovaluable. So I am so grateful to
you. I know that everyonelistening got something out of
it, whether it's a bit ofadvice, the feeling of being
seen, recognition, that there'san opportunity there for them on
the agency side, and it's worthexploring, whichever it might
(33:26):
be. I hope you all join us nexttime for another that next
topic, imposter syndrome, on themessy middle matters.
Kat Logan (33:32):
Bye, everyone. Thanks, Indra, bye.
Indra Klavins (33:41):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy
middle. Word of mouth remainsmost powerful way for people to
find us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it.
If you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore. You can find our
(34:01):
feedback form at the messymiddle matters.com, or in the
show notes. Thank you forjoining us on this journey. This
work is better when we do ittogether, until next time you.
Hi. I'm Indra, and I'd like to welcome you to
the messy middle matters, wheremy friends and I explore all the
twists, turns and challengesthat arise in the messy middle
of work. Hey, everyone, welcomeback to the messy middle matters
today. I'm so excited becausewe're going to be talking about
agency life, right? And so forme, those of you who don't know
(00:29):
me all that well may not realizethat where I cut my teeth
professionally, I always believethat we come of age in a
company, and that shapes us. Forme, it happened to be an agency.
It was a digital agency calledrazor fish, and I still remember
my first day. Pete Stein, ourregional president, came in,
into the conference room. Wewere all getting onboarded by HR
(00:51):
and IT and everybody else. Andhe started the conversation with
you guys were hired because youwere the smartest kids in your
room and all of the classroomsthat you've ever been in before,
all the companies you've everworked for before, but here,
everyone used to be the smartestkid in the room, so recalibrate
and get started. And it was justit was just like wall. It felt
(01:13):
like a wallop, but it wasactually the most generous thing
he could have done, because itreally set the context for what
agency life would be like, whatrole I would be playing, how I
might be interacting witheveryone else around me. So I am
delighted to have Kat joining mefor the conversation today,
because she is also verypassionate about agency life.
(01:36):
And this is actually a teaser.This can be a two part series,
so I'm so excited. So welcomeKat. Thank you for joining me.
Kat Logan (01:42):
Thanks so much, Indra. It's such a pleasure to
be here. Yeah, why
Indra Klavins (01:46):
don't you tell everyone a little bit about
yourself so they get to knowyou, a little bit about your
perspectives.
Kat Logan (01:50):
Yeah, sure. So you might be able to guess from my
accent. I'm originally fromAustralia, but I moved about
1213, years ago to New York.Before that, I'd worked client
side marketing. When I moved toNew York, I wanted to move into
strategy at an agency, and I wasin my mid 20s, so I'd had some
experience, but it was acompletely new world, new
(02:13):
culture, and, you know, agencyexperience is pretty
overwhelming. So since then,I've worked at a number of
different agencies in New York,Saatchi and Saatchi, Johannes,
Leonardo, gray, Omnicom, bigones, small ones, and and,
funnily enough, I mean, that'squite common, is a bit more, but
(02:33):
there is, you know, a revolvingdoor of people, because people
tend to move around a lot inagency life. And, you know, I've
gotten so much from my breadthof experience at different
agencies, but it's funny, likestepping out of full time work a
few years ago and into freelanceconsulting and then also
becoming a coach. I really gotnew perspective on it, and it
(02:56):
was funny when I first gotintroduced to you and your
amazing podcast. I thought itwas so interesting because I was
like, yeah, like, the middle ofagency life is kind of messy and
is very nuanced and interestingin itself. So yeah, it was, it
was interesting when I'velistened to some of your
episodes to kind of like, listento it with that perspective of
(03:19):
the messy middle of agencylives. So it's a pleasure to be
here and talk to you about it.
Indra Klavins (03:24):
I'm delighted. I'm delighted. And what I want
to say is, like, we're going tobe talking about the best and
the challenges, right? Because,like I said, agency, my time at
razor fish, I was there, I thinkfour years, if I'm remembering
correctly, around four ishyears. It shaped me. It gave me
skills that I use to this day,that I never thought that I
would have it. It prepared mefor so many different facets of
(03:47):
life and facets of work that Iwould have never, ever, ever
gotten if I'd only stayed onclient side. And just to give
people language, client sidemeans you're in house. You're
working for a company thatcreates a product and puts
things out. Agency side isyou're helping other folks. You
know, just for gross simplicityin in house, in house client
(04:10):
side, same thing working in acompany, and agency side is its
own thing. Or consulting, wemight throw that word out there
too. That'll be also like thenon in house folks. So anyway,
yeah, so you know, how did you,how did you first land in agency
life? Is that something you'repursuit, or is it? Is it? Is it
(04:31):
life just landed you there andyou're you've really got to
experience it for the firsttime.
Kat Logan (04:35):
It was kind of, you know that that New York dream,
where I landed in New Yorkwithout a job, as soon as I
landed, I was like, No, I'mgetting a job. And you know, New
York is going to be my place. SoI hustled for three months. I
met with 70 people for coffee,for like, chats. I actually
remember meeting someone atRazorfish who was in Australia.
I would just literally talk toanyone and anyone dominicanuto,
(04:58):
maybe I. I don't think it washim.
Indra Klavins (05:01):
No, he's like, he's, there are a lot of Aussies
at Razorfish. There were a lot.
Kat Logan (05:06):
And that's the funny thing about New York and
advertising life. There are somany Australians
Indra Klavins (05:10):
out there. So you're meeting with a lot of
people having copies, yeah.
Kat Logan (05:15):
And then I, I mean, I thought it was kind of a scan.
They were like, do you want togo for an interview at Saatchi?
And Saatchi? And I was like,yes, absolutely. And, you know,
it was one of those right place,right time kind of situations,
but the hustle kind of paid off,and I got a job as a strategy.
It's kind of a mid levelstrategist at that time at
(05:35):
Saatchi, which was prettyincredible, you know, because
it's got such an amazing name.You know, Saatchi is so amazing
in so many ways, in terms of thebrands that they have. Like, I
was working on Miller Lite,Chase, Walmart during that
period, with some amazing,talented strategy directors and
yeah, senior strategists, yeah.
Indra Klavins (05:54):
And so you're just named a whole bunch of
different brands. I'd say that'sone of the best things about
agency life is it expose you?Exposes you to such a breadth of
industries, such a breadth ofclient types, such a breadth of
types of work that are outthere. Even if you are within
one craft strategy, you could beworking across a lot of
(06:15):
different things and collectinga lot of knowledge along the
way.
Kat Logan (06:19):
Yeah, absolutely. And it was funny, like having that
first experience, because I waslike, Okay, this is what it's
like to be a strategist at anagency. This is what it is,
yeah, you know, since then,what's interesting is, you know,
every agency you go to is so, sodifferent. You know, they have
different styles, different waysof working, different
(06:40):
approaches, and the people atthe top kind of really shape
that. And then the people youyou're managed by, shape that,
the people you collaborate. AndI think it's interesting, you
know, comparing then the bigkind of network agencies to,
like, smaller agencies, becausethey're really their own beast,
you know, they're shaped moredirectly by the founders, who
are, you know, very present andstill have that
Indra Klavins (07:01):
influence at them, yeah? And it's, you know,
the phrase that was coming tomind is, and it's not true
everywhere. To your point, everyagency is a little bit
different, but some of them canbe so personality driven, right?
And that totally makes sense,because you're pitching work all
the time, you're givingpresentations to clients all the
(07:22):
time. And through that, you needto develop your own persona,
your own your own identity, andso that that sometimes can shape
also the agencies and the waythat the agencies work.
Kat Logan (07:33):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely, it's, it's almost
like, if the newer the agency,maybe the smaller the agency,
probably like, the closer orlike, the more that founders
touch is on it in terms of,like, how you work. Like, is it
cultural driven? Is it more likedata driven in terms of how you
approach things? Like, what kindof clients are you going after?
(07:54):
What type of projects are yougoing after? But that's
interesting itself, where it'slike, yeah, that the personality
of that founders is definitelyhas more of an imprint.
Indra Klavins (08:05):
Yeah, and for I was I got to razor fish after
the founders had already steppedaway, it still had a little bit
of those echoes of things. Butone of the things that I found
as I moved from client toclient, project to project, I
was not exclusively, but largelyin the financial services
vertical there. What wasinteresting was how much my
(08:27):
clients culture impacted my dayto day, the way that my team
worked, the way that, you know,and it was this really
interesting experience tonavigate, because my role when I
was there, Senior ProjectManager, working a lot with the
account teams and with the BDteams and in developing things.
But it wasn't just the razorfish culture that I was trying
(08:49):
to align with. It was also theculture of the company that I
was working with. And findinglike walking that fine line was
always I found it a challenge. Idon't know how it was for you?
Yeah.
Kat Logan (09:02):
I mean, that's that's interesting in itself. I'm
curious, how would you describethe the finance culture that
kind of impacted you
Indra Klavins (09:09):
financial services? So it was, well, it
was also a really wild time tobe in a financial services
vertical. So I was at razorfish. I'm going to guess halfway
through I would literally haveto look at my LinkedIn to know
exactly when it was but I wasthere when the financial when
the housing market collapsedhere in the US. So that impacted
(09:32):
everyone, either directly,indirectly, clients. I have
stories to tell that I would notever tell on a podcast. But so
for me, it was real. It was areally unique and interesting
time to be working at an agencyduring a economic crisis that
was heavily impacting all of ourday to day clients, but more
(09:53):
mostly, primarily the verticalthat I sat in. And so I'd say.
Before that, before that, itwas, I think it was a little bit
cleaner, like everything wasvery buttoned up, very clear. It
was, it was the standardoperating procedures of what you
would have to do to balancethose two cultures. But after
(10:14):
the collapse, it was, it wasvery different. It was very
different because our clientshad to operate in such a very
different way. Not only werethey having to deal with their
financial headwinds and theirrestructurings and all of the
and the regulatory environmentchanging, and the way that they
were showing up for clients orinvestors or the general public
(10:36):
was changing. So it was a ride.It was a ride, not your typical
one, but it's the moment whereweird side story, but it's the
moment when every single projectfrom that moment onwards, I was
like, you know, what happens inthe and I'll bleep this out,
what happens in the OH SHITscenario, right? So, you know,
(10:58):
like, where everyone needed tobe really ready for the you
know, how do I put up a big,giant message on my website, on
my in that point, apps werebarely there yet. But how do I
put up a message for all myclients that like we're on it,
we're on it, we're payingattention, we're on it, but it
needs to take priority over yourday to day business, because you
have the press coming in, youhave all these other people
(11:19):
coming in, and so from then on,I was like, Okay, I need to
worry about that, that that,like everything is sideways
scenario, and always have a planfor that. So that's one of the
things that shaped me. Simplequestion you asked me, but lots
of memories came rushing back asyou asked it.
Unknown (11:35):
No. I mean, I was genuinely, genuinely curious.
But I think you're completelyright? I think the client's
culture definitely shapes, youknow, you as an agency, how you
respond, what you prioritize.For example, I worked on auto
for a while, and you know,people kind of think it's just
about making ads for consumers.And you know, the goal is for
(11:57):
them to buy cars. But in auto,you know, the dealers have a lot
of influence, so we wereactually showing ads to dealers.
And, you know, the ads are forthe consumers and to obviously
drive sales, but the dealers hadfeedback and actually had input,
which is a dynamic I had no ideaabout before working on auto.
And, yeah, like, that'sinteresting in itself. It's,
(12:20):
definitely nuanced in terms of,like, how you as an agency work
with different clients, and kindof model yourself and how you
are with them based on theirneeds.
Indra Klavins (12:32):
Yeah, and as you're talking about it, the
other thing that comes to mind,and I don't think this is unique
to my role, might have been moreprominent in my role, probably
pretty prominent in your rolethat you had, but you get
exposed to the way thatorganizations function in a very
different way than if you werein house, like I imagine myself,
like as a software engineer in acompany I'm working on my task.
(12:55):
I'm doing my thing as a softwareengineer inside of an agency
where I'm trying to work onsomething, not my role, but I'm
just trying to give you guys adifferent example. But if I'm
working as a software engineerinside of an agency, I might
have this indirect visibilityinto how things work, whether
it's how the which client, whichcontracts did go through, which
(13:18):
contracts didn't go through.Like, how many stakeholders are
we talking to? How many peoplehave a have a say? To your
point, like, do, do I need toshow our work to dealers,
because we need to make surethat they can use the system
that I'm key, keying in andcoding together? You know, those
are, those are things that youwouldn't necessarily have as
(13:39):
much visibility into if you'reworking in house,
Kat Logan (13:43):
yeah, yeah, no, it's, it's so different. And it's,
it's just another layout, like,you know, again, you go into it
being like, Great, we'll makeads for the client, and they'll
be near auto ads or this. Butit's, it's so, so different.
And, yeah, there are so manydifferent varieties of like,
what a client agencyrelationship looks like because
of that?
Indra Klavins (14:03):
Yeah, no, totally. And one of the things
that you also talked about alittle bit earlier was the
revolving door of talent and ofthe people, whether it's on, you
know, your side, whether it's onthe client side, as things shift
and change. I gave one exampleof what would have caused a
revolving door, you know, afinancial crisis that that'll
(14:24):
cause some sort of, you know,change in staff and the people
that you're working with in aday to day basis. Do you want to
talk a little bit about, like,whether it was the triggers or
even, like, the impact to theteam when that stuff happens,
and how do you adapt, and how doyou change to that?
Kat Logan (14:40):
Yeah, I mean, the revolving door in itself is
interesting, because, again, youknow, we're talking about, like,
different ways that agenciesoperate, and that's based on
founder. It's based on the teamand the personalities you work
with. But you know, there ismore transience. I guess, in
agency life, more people movearound. It's more common than.
The other industries, and that'sinteresting, I think, from a
(15:03):
personal perspective, like Imyself was conditioned early to
be like, okay, like time tostart something new, to try a
different agency. But it also,you know, impacts the team,
because you'll be collaboratingand working with someone, and
then they move on, and thensomeone else comes in. And I
think that the great, greatthing about creativity and the
(15:26):
agency kind of side is just howfluid and subjective and gray it
is. You know, there are amillion ways to make an ad.
There are a million differentways an ad could turn out. But
it's also like hard as well,because someone's style and
where you're working could becompletely different. You could
have one manager that reallyprioritizes the data and the
(15:47):
research and like, a reallytight brief that's like
beautifully worded, and thenanother person that comes in and
says, No, it's all about, youknow, having meetings and
collaborating. And yes, thebrief is important, but it's,
it's about like, in personcollaboration, which could be
different. They could prioritizethat. So I think what's
interesting with the revolvingdoor is, you know, it's another
(16:10):
layer. It's like, you know,which people within the agency,
you know, are we diving with?And then if someone shifts and
change, that also kind ofchanges how you personally work
and how you work within yourteam. It's almost interesting
when you think about it. Youknow, we talked about founders
and agency structure. So that'sone layer. Then, like the
management team is another initself. Like how that operates,
(16:32):
who's in that layer that really,really impacts how you work. You
know, what you prioritize as astrategist or as a creative and
then it's almost like the peopleat your level, like, Who are you
working with? You know, how arethey working? What's their
style? And what happens if, youknow, one piece of the puzzle
changes that kind of affectseverything. And I think what's
interesting is, you know, whenyou think about that and think
(16:54):
about those different layers,it's quite heavy, in a sense of,
you know, you're not just comingto work and being an amazing
strategist and producing greatworks. You're thinking about the
dynamics. You're thinking aboutthe dynamics of the team at your
level, of the management of thefounders and their expectations,
you know, or the you know, theagency, holding company, and
what mandate, and then you havethe client as well. And you're
(17:17):
thinking about, okay, what arethey expecting? Are they
expecting? You know, this in thedeck, when we present, what
proactive things should we bedoing every quarter for them,
you know? And so there are somany layers, and it is heavy,
yeah.
Indra Klavins (17:31):
And I've seen people navigate, you know, if
I'm thinking about just likepolar opposite needs, you know,
maybe they're not polaropposite, but different,
different needs, like, there isthe person who I know them, I
can I'm just picturing facesnow. There are the people who
love that novelty, who lovebeing able to have that constant
shift of dynamics, right? Andthat's, you know, I think that
(17:55):
it's they might get frustratedif they get stuck in an account,
right? For whatever reason, theclient falls in love with them,
or, you know, might be theremight be like financial
pressures. There's lots ofreasons that they can happen for
them. It could be that challengeof always finding that new thing
that's going to be novel andstimulating and challenge them.
(18:16):
And then on the other side ofthe spectrum I've seen where
there were pods of people, orclusters of people that would
travel as a unit, right? Itcould be as simple as a creative
director and associate designer,you know, and a, you know, a
regular designer that that thattravel together. Or it could be
like cross functional, wherethere's the strategist, the
(18:37):
designer, and, you know, there'sthat one front end coder that
love to love to love friend anddeveloper, who love to work
together, you know? And thoseare two different models that
I've seen for people to find, toget the most out of their agency
experience, but also findsomething that suits them in
their temperament. Yeah, that'salso, have you seen any other
(18:57):
models? Are those familiarmodels?
Kat Logan (18:59):
Yeah, yeah, no, those, those are definitely,
and, you know, like, people taketheir people with them, so
someone moves, they might moveas a team, as they said, and
then they're like, yeah, yeah, Iworked with this amazing person,
like, we're bringing them over,and I think that's also
interesting, yeah. So it's, it'squite dynamic, and it is really
the people that then shape, youknow, how the work is done, and
(19:21):
the work culture as well, whichis super interesting, yeah.
Indra Klavins (19:25):
And one of the things that we talked about when
we when we first had our deeperdive, you know, off, off camera,
so to speak, we were talkingabout the fact that, you know,
we were talking about the messymiddle of careers too, right?
And the diet, you know, you've,there's, there's, it's very
there. As much as somebody who'sin house struggles to get the
(19:46):
support that they need, I'mgoing to say that it might be
just a little bit harder forpeople on the agency side to
find the support that they needas they're navigating that
middle, because it's so dynamic,because there are so many
different flavors of things andpositive. Disabilities, there
isn't a one size fits all foreveryone, or one size fits most,
or two sizes fit most. I don'teven know what it might be, but
(20:09):
that that having to manage up,down sideways. I know that you
have a lot of experience withthat, whether directly or
working with clients or whateverit might be. Yeah.
Kat Logan (20:18):
I mean, that's interesting in itself, and when
you think about the messy middleof agency life there the messy,
or the middle part is so in asense. So yeah, you know people
that come in at junior level,and those people don't have much
experience, you know, they'rebeing mentored, managed all of
that, and then there are peopleat the top. But when you think
about it, like, I don't know forsure, but it feels like 80, 85%
(20:41):
of people in an agency are inthat middle part, which is quite
big, and there are so manydifferent roles, like you could
be called a strategy directorand be doing a million different
things. It just depends on theagency and the team. And as you
said, there's there's not a lotof support. It is really
dependent on your manager. Ifyou have a good manager, you
(21:03):
know, some fees are better thanothers at, you know, support
from the top and making surepeople, you know, have what they
need and feel guided andsupported and are kind of
looking out for people in termsof, like, you know, are they?
Are they having the support theyneed to do their job but to feel
comfortable? But then there'salso the realities of agencies,
where, you know the revolvingdoor is by choice, but a lot of
(21:27):
times, and unfortunately, we'veseen this a lot, I think
recently, the last six months,it's not there are layoffs,
redundancies, and things that wecan't predict. So that, in
itself, is tough because thingsare out of your control, and
there's only a certain level ofcomfort, I'd say, because you
don't know what's going tohappen tomorrow. It's dependent
on, you know, if the agencykeeps a client or doesn't, or,
(21:49):
you know, you used the exampleof the housing market, you know,
things out of our control,where, in a sense, it's, it's
our Is someone getting or arepeople getting the support they
need from a role? But then alsothere's, there's that underlying
discomfort, because at the endof the day, you you're not sure
what's going to happen longerterm and and with your role as
well, which is, which is tough,yeah.
Indra Klavins (22:12):
And what I would say, what's different between
then and now, I would say, isthat at one point in time, I
would have said that there isthere, there. There's a sense of
less security at an agency,whether that's your role or your
project or your relationshipwith your client, because
(22:32):
they're just like you said,there's so many factors that can
be factoring in your day to day.But I would say that people who
are in house don't have as muchof a sense of security as they
once did because of the way thatthat that that that side of the,
that side of the world, isoperating as well. There is a
(22:52):
lot of that. Like, there itfeels, sometimes you feel like
you're standing on quicksand, oryou're not sure if you're
standing on quicksand, like, isthe is it going to give today,
or is it not going to givetoday? And so I have the things
that I've done in the past,like, what are if somebody is
feeling that kind ofuncertainty, what advice do you
give them to be able to just toget to find themselves, create
(23:17):
themselves enough stability tobe able to navigate the world
and move forward, because thatcould feel paralyzing if you're
not feeling like you have anysort of agency in it. No, no, a
double use of the word,
Kat Logan (23:31):
yeah, that's such a great question. I mean, I think
there are a few things, I think,you know, there are things in
life that we can't control, andI think, you know, separating
that from from what we cancontrol upland itself. So, you
know, it's true for all of us.You know, we can, we can all
lose a full time job tomorrow,right? So what can we do to kind
(23:51):
of like set ourselves up forsuccess? You know, if that does
happen, so continuing tonetwork, not just like
connecting with your immediateteam, but like finding mentors,
whether it's like, in an agencyor outside of an agency, to kind
of like, give you that guidance.But start to think about, okay,
if something does happen, do Ihave a network? It could be
through mentors. It could bejust through networking with
(24:13):
other people in agency life. Andthen I think it's it's thinking
about, well, if the worst doescome to us, you know, there are
jobs, there are freelance Icould probably get by. But then
I think coming back to, okay,that's out of my control, but in
my day, I can turn up, I can doa good job. I can, like, focus
my attention on, you know, thetask at hand. I can think about
(24:36):
that. I can also think about,well, is there something
proactive I could do too? Notall of us have time just
depending on, you know,workloads, but you know, part of
being at an agency is also kindof like taking taking the
opportunity to really exert yourcreativity in in ways that are
after you, but also ways thataren't like, for example, if
(24:59):
you're working on a. Certaincategory, is there a proactive
thing you could do to bring theclient, like, trends for that
quarter, you know, like thinkingabout, like, how to go above and
beyond, you know, if you do havethat kind of capacity, just so,
you know, if something doeshappen, you're really all set up
success in terms of, like, youknow, it have I demonstrated,
(25:21):
you know, my worth and valuebeyond kind of what's been asked
day to day.
Indra Klavins (25:26):
I love that, and I love that you you're started
talking about trends, becausethe one, one of the biggest
differences between agency sideand in house, is that on the
agency side, you're more likelyto trends, new technologies,
novel ideas, novel concepts, aremore likely to come into your
orbit of understanding than theyare when you're in house and and
(25:48):
being able to collect those andunderstand all the great things
that you know that you can bringto whether it's your next client
project, whether it's your nextagency job, whether you Go in
house, you've you've have accessto so much more novelty for lack
of a better term. It's not thebest term, but you get to see
(26:09):
all these like emergent,nascent, developing things, and
they they whether it's throughyour clients or through
partners, or through strategistslike yourself who are keeping
their eye on the market andwhat's what's trendy, or on
trend, or trending, or whateverit might be, that's a huge
thing. And the one other thingthat I would add also is create
(26:30):
your community inside of likeyou were talking about
networking outside, but evenwithin the organization, like,
create your community like oneof the I don't even, I don't
remember what antiquated. AlwaysYammer it was a way, way
antiquated messaging system.Way, way, way antiquated
messaging system, but it was, isI and a colleague of mine,
(26:53):
Simon, also an Aussie, weactually pulled together a
knowledge repository for theproject, program, operations,
management, craft, disciplinewithin the within the within
razor fish to be able to helpeach other out as a community.
Hey, does anybody have a, youknow, a scoping tool that has
(27:16):
these particular factors in it,and we help to pull that
together and generate acommunity within that community,
because it was that, thatparticular discipline, you know,
usually we're very scattered,and there's one of us on a
project or on even on a client,and we don't really have to talk
to each other, but being ableto, like, lean on each other
when something would gosideways, that was a huge thing.
Kat Logan (27:39):
Yeah, I love, love, love that it's, it's such great
advice. And I think it can betough. Like, as you move around,
you'll, you know, it can bequite I don't know if
confronting is the right word,but you can feel intimidated.
You know, you turn up in anagency, and everyone is so smart
and so seemingly confident.They're in their groove, and
you're like, like, no one wantsto be friends with me, but, you
(28:02):
know, like, it's not true atall, like people do want to
connect, and that's honestly,where agency culture is at its
best. I think when you do reachout, you do say hi to someone at
the water cooler, if you're youknow, like in the office, or
even just like, you know,through coffee or virtual coffee
connections over slack. And Ihonestly think that you know
(28:24):
that that proactive reaching outand connections where
possibilities can happen bothpersonally, but I think for the
agency as well, like you mightbe able to uncover something
where you're like, Oh, that's agreat proactive idea. I could do
with someone who's in acompletely other team that I
wouldn't have talked tootherwise, but you know, maybe
you're both great at, like,picking up on social trends, and
(28:45):
you know, the agency doesn'treally have a strong social
capability, so maybe it'ssomething you could build
together. Yeah, maybe, like, youknow, if the unfortunate does
happen, of you know, your clientdoes leave the agency, you know
you've connected with someone onanother team, so that something
fruitful might come for that.But I don't think there's any
harm that can come from likereaching out and connecting,
(29:06):
like cross functionally, youknow, at an agency, building
those connections that wouldn'texist naturally, just because
your role, but just like formingthem because of networking, but
because of, you know, what couldcome of that in terms of, like,
sparks and creativity, I
Indra Klavins (29:23):
love I love that, and I especially love the one
thing that you hit on that Iwant to make sure I underscore
people within agency life reallywant to support each other.
Like, there is, I remember,there was a moment where I was
in, I don't know if it was aclient meeting, a pitch meeting,
whatever, and there are a bunchof us around the table, and one
person from Razorfish wassitting next to me, across from
(29:46):
me, doesn't matter where theywere. And we were like, yes, and
as such and such said, and theywould say yes, and as Indra
said, and like, oh yeah, we loveto think about things this way.
I had never met this person inmy life. I had we didn't even
say. Hello to like they weliterally walked into the
conference room and discoveredthat we were at the table
together, but we knew that wewere a team. We had an
(30:07):
objective. We were going to makeeach other shine. And then as we
were leaving, like, Oh my God,who are you? What accounts are
you working on? How are youworking on things? And you forge
that friendship, and you willsupport each other because
you're both vested in eachother's success.
Kat Logan (30:22):
I absolutely love that. I think there is that
natural support that does comein, which is really nice,
because agency life overall canbe cut through, you know, just
because of the nature of all thedifferent factors, you know,
that we've talked about. I alsothink it's interesting. I mean,
one thing we briefly talkedabout, but with all like, the
breadth and subjectivity, youknow, there are so many
(30:45):
varieties of like, you know,what an account director should
be, what a creative director ora strategy director, it can
sometimes be tough. If you landat an agency you've interviewed
well, you shared your approach,you said work, but you land and
you're like, oh, wow, I am. Mystyle is really different. My
work process is so different tothis agency. I'm just not used
(31:07):
to it. I mean, it can be amoment where, you know, it's
overwhelming, but it's also likean opportunity to kind of like,
okay, I'm here. How can I learn?How can I maybe adapt? How can I
bring my own way of working andthose strengths to this agency,
and almost like, kind of meet inthe middle, in a sense, so
(31:28):
connect with others that do yourrole can be huge in that. And I
think sometimes, like,especially, you know, those who
have maybe less experience, canfeel a little bit intimidating,
a little bit like, oh, like, ifthey're better than me, you
know, in the same role and adifferent team, like, is that
(31:48):
bad? Is the manager going to belike, Oh, this person's not as
good as this person. But it'snot about that at all. It's,
it's like, we all bring suchdifferent things to a role. It's
like, how can we kind of shareour way of working, our approach
learn from others, and kind oflike, you know, form what's
best. I think the more we learnabout different processes and
creativity, the better we are,because we can, kind of like,
(32:11):
you know, really be at ourstrong suit, build off each
other, but also kind of improveour own way of thinking and
working as well.
Indra Klavins (32:20):
Love that. I love that. And I think that's a
wonderful transition for us, orit's a wonderful pausing point,
we'll say for everybody, becausethe next time that we would that
we actually have a chance totalk, or everyone gets to hear
us talk at is we're going to betalking about imposter syndrome.
And you know all of that, and Iknow you have so many wonderful
(32:42):
thoughts around impostersyndrome, but we also are going
to be talking about like, how itshows up in different types of
environments, which is why Ithought it was so important for
us to talk about agency life.And I am, I am so grateful that
I'm so grateful that you joinedme for this topic, because I've
represented it a bit in withinepisodes, but being able to dig
(33:04):
in a lot deeper and get anotherperson's perspective on it is is
just so important and sovaluable. So I am so grateful to
you. I know that everyonelistening got something out of
it, whether it's a bit ofadvice, the feeling of being
seen, recognition, that there'san opportunity there for them on
the agency side, and it's worthexploring, whichever it might
(33:26):
be. I hope you all join us nexttime for another that next
topic, imposter syndrome, on themessy middle matters.
Kat Logan (33:32):
Bye, everyone. Thanks, Indra, bye.
Indra Klavins (33:41):
Thanks for taking time with us in the messy
middle. Word of mouth remainsmost powerful way for people to
find us. If this episode sparkedsomething for you, we'd love it.
If you'd subscribe to thepodcast on your favorite app,
download a few episodes andshare it with someone else who's
navigating the in between. Doyou have ideas for future
episodes or topics you'd like usto explore. You can find our
(34:01):
feedback form at the messymiddle matters.com, or in the
show notes. Thank you forjoining us on this journey. This
work is better when we do ittogether, until next time you.
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